October 17, 2016

If you give people tax breaks to buy homes, you cause house prices to rise

Posted in Sunday Business Post · 110 comments ·

If I were setting the ordinary level Leaving Cert economics paper my first question, an easy one, to get the students started would be a simple one about supply and demand. It would go something like this:


A country is experiencing a shortage of supply of starter houses; builders say they can’t make enough profit at the existing prices to make it worth building. What would happen if the government gave people a tax break to help them buy houses? Would the price of houses go up or down? Please demonstrate your answer with basic economic charts of supply and demand.


The right answer would centre on the fact that the demand curve for houses would shift outwards straight away, driving up prices immediately. Supply might respond in time, but the impact of such a move would be to definitely drive all prices of starter homes upwards.


A good ordinary level economics student should get this.


For some reason the public servants in the Department of Finance, didn’t figure this out. Or maybe they don’t care? It is difficult to fathom. Now we are talking here about basic stuff. This is one of the basic laws of supply and demand. It isn’t complex. It is basic microeconomics.


The reason I am singling out these mandarins rather than politicians is because politicians do what they have to do to get elected. The politician sees the “first time buyer” as a homogenous voting block and he or she wants to be sure of their vote next time. That’s fair enough. In a PR system, the margins between winning and losing a seat are so wafer thin that the politician has a serious career interest in being seen to be the friend of what is perceived as a block. That’s the economic weakness of democracy, but I suppose it is also its political strength at the same time.


However, the economist in the Department of Finance, the mandarin who doesn’t have to face the electoral music every few years, knows better. Not only does he know that the first time buyers are not a block, but he will also surely know the first fundamental rule of macroeconomics, which is known as the paradox of aggregation.


This rule in plain English means that what is good for the individual is not always good for the collective.


So take the block of first time buyers. Yes, they are all individuals but they compete with each other in the market for houses. We also know that it is a market for scarce houses.


The basic rule of macroeconomics says that what is good for the individual is not always good for the collective. This means that a tax break for the individual is great for her and gives her a leg up in the market, so long as no other first time buyer avails of the same tax break. When all the rest of the first time buyers avail of the same tax break it simply cancels out the individual advantage and forces everyone to compete with each other at higher prices if the market is tight.


The same thing happens when the market is slack and faced with too many houses and broken balance sheets like it was in 2008. Banks would tell the individual who had too much debt to sell his extra apartment to fix his balance sheet. This was good advice so long as the bank didn’t tell every bankrupt the same thing because if they did (which they did) everyone would sell at the same time and prices would just fall and the seller would be faced with the same problem of trying to sell but at lower prices.


The paradox of aggregation is perhaps the simplest rule of macroeconomics.


Now when you look at the budget this week, which must have been signed off by the Department of Finance, we see a total absence of any understanding of the basics of both microeconomics, which involve the laws of supply and demand, and of the basics of macroeconomics, which centres on the, sometimes counterintuitive, paradox of aggregation.


This is also galling because these are the people who spouted the “soft landing” mantra a few years ago and were rewarded for that failure with promotions and foreign tax-free sinecures.


Indeed, when the public sector goes for the big pay deals to compensate them for the fact that the economy is growing again, these top mandarins – the faceless nomenklatura of the country – will be paid handsomely.


They should have explained the basic laws of economics to the politicians. These people are the permanent government. They will be around when the sweating politician, being grilled under the TV lights, is well gone. The mandarins will still be drawing gold-plated “defined benefit” pensions when the punters in the private sector will have to deal with the fact that at interest rates of zero, the chances are that their “defined contribution” pensions will not provide for them.


I have no problem with paying civil servants well.  But I do have a problem with rewarding stupidity. These mandarins are trained economists who should explain to politicians what is likely to happen in a dysfunctional housing market when you introduce tax breaks for first time buyers.


On Friday, it was widely reported that many developers automatically increased the price of starter homes in response to the budget. They didn’t even wait for the Finance Bill to be enacted, prices all over the country simply jumped overnight.


This is exactly what I would have expected a decent ordinary level Leaving Cert economics student to have replied in answer to the opening question.

  1. Tull McAdoo

    And there we have it folks in a nutshell!

  2. Antaine

    Subscribe :-)

  3. polomora

    Older readers will recall that we’ve already been down this path. In the early 80s there was the 2000 punt (just realised that I dont have a pound key on my keyboard) grant for first-time house buyers. Didn’t work then, won’t work now.

  4. CorkPlasticPaddy

    Just goes to show that we have complete idiots running the country, doesn’t it? Simple economics is just totally beyond them!!!

  5. Onda

    Quod Erat Demonstrandum

  6. Bamboo

    David, I don’t think at this stage you need to have any level of economics. Just simple common sense will do the trick. People don’t need to study economics anymore to understand the fine ins-and-outs of stupidity.

    • Bamboo

      This “homogenous voting blocks” of first time buyers are most likely young families who have decided to bear the storm of the crisis and hope this time the idiots in government are not going to make the same mistake again. We have now a new government and this time a government with a set of boys and girls with new fresh common sense and thinking brains.

      The government this time again assumes that this “block of first time buyers” will be as stupid as previous generations.

  7. contact23

    They’d never have done it to raise the margin for their builder buddies? would they??
    anyway, they can take the electorate as a bunch of lemmings , just look at the quality of politicians we elect , time and again…

  8. EugeneN

    Of course David, this is by design. The devleopers are effectively on strike, and they told their buddies in the Property-Government nexus that they needed more money to build. And so they got it. Apparantly they will now build more houses, but theres a flaw in that logic. If costs are ( say) 200K and you can sell 20 at 250k or 12 at 300k, that latter is more profitable of course.

    • Daithi7

      Yes Eugene,

      But that’s a big ‘if’ you put in there & It depends on the price elasticity curve of house prices versus sales doesn’t it?!

      So in your example (depending on price elasticity of course) a developer may sell 20 @ €250k, with a 50k profit to yield a total profit of say €1m, but he may only be able to sell 8 @ €300k to realise €800k profit. So your’s is not a conclusive argument, sorry.

      • EugeneN

        Yes, Daithi7

        He may not be able to sell the 12 at €300k so probably best to wait for a government handout ( via the FTBs) or to convince the economically illiterate that the real problem is the central bank. Then he can start building, with that diverted taxpayer bung. In fact that is exactly why the government introduced this. It wasn’t to help the FTB.

        In any case this is why developers build in stages, with the hope of jacking up the prices in the latter stages of the development. Which of course, they have just done.

  9. Pat Flannery

    In 2012 the Government deliberately tied up most developable land for 7 years. Developers transferred their land holdings to newly-formed subsidiaries who wanted to keep the market flat for 7 years, followed by a boom. The Government obliged with the 2012 “Capital gains exempt from Capital Gains Tax”:


    “In Budget 2012, a new incentive relief from CGT was introduced for the first 7 years of ownership for properties bought between 7 December 2011 and the end of 2013 (extended to the end of 2014 in Budget 2014), where the property is held for more than 7 years. The relief applies to all property, whether residential or non-residential. The relief does not apply if a property is sold within 7 years of its acquisition. If it is sold more than 7 years after acquisition and a gain is made on the sale, relief will be given for the initial 7-year holding period. For example, if the property was bought in January 2012 and sold in January 2022, the property would have been held for 10 years, so 7/10 of any gain will be relieved from CGT and 3/10 is taxable. This relief applies to land or buildings in the State and to land or buildings situated in any EEA state.”

    Nothing very complicated here: developers pay off politicians. Meanwhile well-paid media punters like David distract the people with economic theories like “the paradox of aggregation”, while the Government and its clients get on with the business of making money.

    • Truthist

      Another “conspiracy theory / fact” u just revealed there Pat.
      Keep up the good work.

    • Sideshow Bob

      Hi Pat,

      I think it very interesting that you pointed this out but I think you are very wrong about what was intented and what will happen as a result of it.

      I think it is just a feeble attempt to prevent quick purchases and resale for profit by intermediaries ( vulture funds etc ) who have no longer term interest or development objectives.

      I think you are factoring out two or three significant elements; first off the property market as a whole is still inside a dysfunctional and instable phase so any tax measure designed for a normal market can’t and won’t have the intended policy effect. Secondly valuation or price is heavily affected by the presence of valid permissions for development lands and these normal last for 5 years some bigger ones get 8-10 years basically this a huge variable in how any situation would play out. Thirdly, while I actually don’t think what you are saying is the case about develop-able land being bought up I do think it is a normal business function of developers to buy land on the cheap with an eye to future development otherwise there is no pipeline of future work for them (or homes or other buildings for society at large). Remember there is usually a lag time of several years between the purchase of a property without planning to its full devopment , and the bigger the property and development the longer the lag time is likely to be ( which has to be financed usually, too ). In the main I haven’t noticed many such sales and the level of Planning Permissions being sought is still pathetically low.

      • Pat Flannery

        Hi Sideshow Bob: In an interview to the Examiner today Noonan said: “There are builders in cities, particularly Dublin, gearing up already to supply the starter-home market.” I doubt he can name any. He should tell us the land holder if any who is willing to give up their capital gains holiday to do so.


        He was comparing his first time buyer deposit scheme to the car scrappage scheme:

        “The economists are saying we should have concentrated on the supply side. When there’s a demand for something, it leads to increased supply. If we can give deposits to people there will be an increased supply. The [building] industry will move to supply the extra demand.”

        He is playing politics, protecting his donors by deceiving the public. He knows that his buyer deposit scheme will not entice anybody to release any land and pay capital gains. It is deceitful to compare this with the successful car scrappage scheme. There was no such impediment on the car industry. The building industry will NOT move to supply the extra demand as he claims.

        He should be called on that deceit in the Dail.

        • Sideshow Bob

          He is spoofing Pat. If there were builders gearing up you would see it in planning permission activity. Anybody can check the figures on the CSO website: there is nothing much happening. Historic lows for the four years running or so in fact. Yes he should be called out but no one inside tge construction industry will rock that boat, most academics in the area are still part of the professikns or indystry so they won’t open their mouth and most left wing TDs don’t get economics so they won’t be able to comment accurately. Which leaves FF, who are likely biding their time waiting to stick the knife in and the so even the possibility of them opening their mouth is moot.

          • Pat Flannery

            Sideshow Bob: I am new to the Irish CSO site. I got as far as this page:

            Commencement Notices

            It didn’t seem to be much of a help. How can I find “planning permission activity”? Surely others, media and economists, will also be looking for pipeline figures.

            It was easy to check the effectiveness of the car scrappage scheme, new registrations were instantly available. But how will the media be able to check the effectiveness of the “new buyer deposit” housing scheme? Surely there is a way? Surely they won’t just print whatever Noonan gives them.

          • Sideshow Bob

            I will be back to you in 24-36 hours or so. I am in transit between a bar and an airport! Regards.

          • Sideshow Bob

            Hi Pat,

            Try this one for planning permissions:


            It is broken down by multi-unit ( i.e. speculative ) vs one-off ( i.e. self-build bungalow bliss ). There is more info available like apartments versus houses, average areas, etc.

            Maybe contrast it with completion figures ( from your linked page above ) as not all planning permissions are actually built. The completion rate is higher for one-offs as opposed to multi-units (as you would expect).

            Constantin Gurdgiev used to comment on the situation but stopped a while back…here is one of his last posts on the topic…http://trueeconomics.blogspot.ie/2014/06/2462014-planning-permissions-in-ireland.html

          • Pat Flannery

            Thanks Sideshow Bob. I’m afraid I am completely out of my depth on the Irish CSO. My American experience counts for nothing here.

            In America most of the public information came from professional associations, like the National Association of Realtors and the big title companies, which was all confirmable by official records at local, state and national levels.

            I will have to really study up on the data collection and reporting methods in Ireland, maybe even give the CSO a call to help me out. I really need to get a handle on the Irish housing supply pipeline before I comment further on trends here.

            In America our local authorities’ DSDs (development services departments) both city and county, gave us real time data as part of their job. Trends were instantly identifiable.

            We in the industry even had regular monthly meetings with DSD staff, who briefed us formally. Some of the more diligent politicians attended those meetings industry/government.

            Those DSD stats were the very air I breathed. Maybe there is something equivalent here and I just don’t know about it yet.

          • Sideshow Bob

            Hi Pat, you are welcome. I will come back to you with more detailed info sometime next week, if you can wait.

            I would say the SCSI webpage is a good one in terms of publishing regularly updated public information on this area.


            Their members work on both side of the contract divide (project and construction sides) so the information is balanced by necessity and also they commission specialists also to help analyze and compile the reports. It is grown-up in terms of a discussion and beyond promoting their own role a bit they aren´t trying to promote anyone else´s interests in particular.

  10. rbljck

    If the Government was serious about looking after first time buyers they would make grant available for purchase of second hand homes. There are thousands of empty houses out there, often much cheaper than new houses, but it seems these ‘bargains’ are being targeted by LAs for social housing purposes. But any grant for FTBs is really a grant to builders/ developers. If you want to encourage building cut VAT on building materials to make it viable?

    Levels of new build housing is lamentably low; is a result of inter alia repeated failures at a national and local level to invest in infrastructure, and the continuing failings of the banking system.

    Rubbish initiatives like this first time buyers grant, or the Living City Initiative, or the Vacant Sites Levy are just a ‘veneer’ designed to demonstrate that the Gov. is talking the issue and is making funds available to stimulate niche sectors in the housing market.

    However the reality it that the Rebuilding Ireland action plan is an acknowledgement that we are literally years away from sustainable housing building programmes, where supply will meet demand.

    If I was a cynical, I would suggest that it government policy to never reach this equilibrium. business as usual.

  11. Deco

    Here we go again. The cure for the mess created by Ponzi-economics…is….more Ponzi-econommics.

    Of course it is stupid.

    Unfortunately, it is in agreement with the mores of the Irish establishment. They love Ponzi-scheming.

    Back to the something for nothing culture. It always ends up in disaster. But the peopel who want it, will not listen to common sense.

  12. Deco

    A copy of the incomprehisible state of UK state pensions, from the Daily Telegraph.


    We need the same for the Dublin residential property market. An attempt to make sense of something, that eventually merely proves that state policy is nonsense !!!!!

  13. cyberjohn

    I am with Noonan on this one. The decision makes sense. However, 1)Dublin property is still in a bubble !!! 2) It will burst !!!

    The issues in Ireland is that Nama put a floor under prices and we are still very much in a big fin bubble.

  14. Deco

    Society will be asked to bear the costs of Ponzi-nomics. Same here, as anywhere else. Same now, as any other time. Those that sweat and toil will be shortchanged. Those that gamble and spoil will have a party.

    And then when it is done, with people in dire straits, there will be stern words from the main political parties condemning people for voting for the “sinister fringe”, etc…

  15. CorkPlasticPaddy


    It’s about time that the Irish electorate ‘woke up’ in regard to listening to the main political parties condemning them for voting for the ‘sinister fringe’, etc…. If the Irish electorate went away and voted for the so called ‘sinister fringe’ then things might begin to change for the better!
    Ever since the foundation of the state all we’ve had were either FF and FG/LAB governments and where has this gotten us, up to our necks in debt and still the people keep on voting for the same crowd. Why do they keep on doing it?? Are the people completely stupid or what??? They must be to keep on voting for the same kind of government time after time!!! They must be lemmings to keep on doing this. ‘The sinister fringe’ might be a whole lot better than the amadans we have had up to now!!

  16. DJR

    It’s not the civil servants who are the problem – they have regularly been ignored since Charlie’s time. Why would the government listen to them when there’s no votes in doing the right thing?

    Coveney has his eye on the leadership contest next year, so wants a few short-term headlines to look like he is doing something. Noonan is still busy keeping the ecb/banks/nama/developers happy. Perfect recipe for ripping off first-time-buyers and getting the taxpayer to fund it. Zero measures in Coveney’s ‘plan’ or Noonan’s budget on reducing the cost of development land. Has anyone heard Enda Kenney ever make one pronouncement of the property market? (Besides saying we all went mad borrowing money.)

    The real problem is the electorate – continuing to vote for FF/FG and getting no change. The problem won’t be solved until there is an alternative that avoids the looney left or the right wing/catholic renua. Is a party with a bit of honesty & common sense too much to ask for?

    • Mike Lucey

      “Is a party with a bit of honesty & common sense too much to ask for?”

      It won’t happen until people of ‘honesty & common sense” form a group under the Direct Democracy ethos and get things done for the betterment of society in general.

      A good starting point from which to work might be the reinstatement of the Irish Free State Constitution’s Articles 48, this time with no underhanded ‘back door’ for this article’s removal by bought and paid for politicians!

      There is more information here, http://www.reinstate48.ie/article48/ and an option to pledge support.


      • Truthist

        No, Mike, we do not need “common” sense ;
        Because, the “common” sense of the Irish people is now at an all-time low.
        We need “good” sense.
        I hope that my answer “replete with honesty & good-sense” is not too rich a serving.

        • Mike Lucey

          You are correct Thruthist. I hope you added your signature to the cause.

          There is also a section within the site that lists all constituencies and the political candidates that have taken the pledge.

          I have not read through all the constituencies to see if any sitting TDs have pledged their support! It would not surprise me if I find that to the case as ‘turkeys don’t vote for Christmas’ but I, probably foolishly live in hope!

    • Truthist

      Dearest DJR,
      U say ;
      “It’s not the civil servants who are the problem – they have regularly been ignored …”
      Are u a Civil SERPENT urself ?
      I ask because what u say there is false, & smacks of self-SERPING.

      • DJR

        No. And the problem runs a lot deeper than them – don’t know how you could think that is false.

        • Truthist

          Good to know that u are not a Civil SERPENT, DJR. 8-)
          By the way, if u were a Civil SERVANT, well, that would be fine ;
          And, a rarity too.
          Our Civil Service is :
          majority Civil SERPENTS
          minority Civil SERVANTS.
          As much as I highlight that the Civil SERPENTS are misfortune for us, I know that “the problem” — the mother of all the problems — runs deeper than just the CIVIL SERPENTS.
          So, I agree with u there.
          Here is the “National” Governance of Irish State ;
          Hidden / Secret “National” Government / Deep State
          Consisting of :
          certain Industrialists
          certain Agri-Business CEOs
          certain Merchants
          certain Bankers
          certain Lawyers
          certain Senior Civil SERPENTS
          E.U.-philic representative[s] ;
          probably the appropriately named EU-philic symbols Dick Roche, Pat Cox, & also Cockroach Peter Sutherland ( “Suds” )
          certain Media owners
          certain Editors of newspapers
          certain representative[s] of RTE
          certain co-operative representative[s] of Catholic Church
          certain like-minded representative of Church of Ireland
          certain members of Council of State
          certain Garda Commissioner[s]
          [ Not necessarily includes present Blueshirt "Duffy" ]
          Head[s] of Irish Intelligence / Secret Service
          certain official representative of Freemason Lodge of Ireland,
          certain “Intellectuals”,
          certain scientists
          inter alia
          The Civil Service / The “Permanent” Government
          L.E.J. ; The “Official” Government
          The “Temporary” Government ;
          L. & E. are “temporary”
          J is actually “permanent”
          Leglislative ;
          “elected” Dail, Seanad, & Councils
          Executive ;
          [ Atimes, the "Drinks" Cabinet / "Gay" or other Pirandellos Closet ;
          Hence, traitorous decisions by Executive vis-a-vis E.U. ; e.g.s "Fishing Rights"
          inter alia
          Judiciary ;
          And, they are Civil Servants [ SERPENTS ? ; Many rotten Judges ].
          Thus, they “straddle” #2 & #3.
          Meant to be “Checks & Balances” on :
          L.E.J. interaction with the citizens & foreigners in Irish State
          citizens interaction with other citizens & foreigners in Irish State
          But, we all know that there is no justice for the poor victim.
          Oh yes, sometimes “token” justice for poor victim
          But, overall, injustice for poor victim.
          Civil Service is arm of E.J. of L.E.J.

          • Truthist

            EDIT ;
            Meant to be “Checks & Balances” on :
            L.E.J. interaction with the citizens & foreigners in Irish State
            citizens interaction with other citizens & foreigners in Irish State
            foreigners interaction with foreigners in Irish State

  17. “If you give people tax breaks to buy homes, you cause house prices to rise” David McWilliams.

    Pretty basic stuff.
    Increase thee amount of money with which to buy anything and the first thing is to increase demand and up go the prices.
    Conversely by increasing the amount of anything and the price or value drops.

    The funny thing is this is the basic problem with the interference in the volume of money provided to the economy by the central bankers who play the economy like a fiddle.

    First the central bankers increase the money supply to the chartered banks and to the government directly. The banks use the additional reserves to increase the money supply by large percentiles. This creates a spending increase and the resulting increase in buying which pushes up the prices.

    What is not talked about is, the converse already mentioned, that the increase in the money supply lowers the value of the money. The more money issued in to the economy makes the currency worth less and less.That is, it takes increasing amounts of money to buy the same amount of goods. This inflation of the money supply therefore is a hidden tax on the savings of all prudent people. The savings are constantly decreasing in value or the ability to buy goods.

    What is also not mentioned is that the increase in money that is used to stimulate the economy is borrowed in to existence and so the debt levels are increased. Those that avail of the new money are further in debt. The debtors are relieved by the issuance of more money as it lowers the value of the money that must be repaid.
    Thus inflation is better for borrowers than it is for savers.
    The Actions of the central bankers are thus better described as encouraging consumption and debt and discouraging savings and prudence.

    This alone will lead to the degradation of society.
    Add in the meddling of the politicians in the form of subsidies and penalties and the mix results in a phony economy reacting in chaos to multiple artificial constructs and destructs.

    It is well noted that in order to so manipulate the economy the people have to be manipulated into activities that are extraordinary. The manipulations become so severe that there is no longer a proper functioning economy. In addition there is no longer any freedom of choice except that allowed by government.

    The end result of the meddling is totalitarianism. Freedom is lost. Remember that a government that is big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take it all away.

    The fundamental organism for the loss of personal freedom is the central banking system of the creation of money. It is designed to erode our capacity to act in a free economy and is thus the basic instrument of a totalitarian state.

    Those bankers quoted as saying, “I care who makes the laws if I control the money supply of the country”, know exactly what they are doing and have explicitly told us their intentions.

    It is time we noted their intention to enslave humanity and do something about it. There is a reason that the current currencies and central bank fiat are called dishonest money. It is because it covertly diminishes the freedoms of society and results in enslavement.

    There is a reason that mankind used precious metals as the basis of trade for millennia. It is because it is the most effective money yet developed that keeps all participants honest and allows economies to develop in the most effective way. We will then have the lowest prices, the best quality of goods and the greatest freedom of choice both of products and actions.

    Honest money is the tool of a free and prosperous society. The current system is the tool of tyrants to oppress us all.

  18. But the Pentagon is not a victim and it didn’t fire those missiles and kill those Yemeni radar operators in self-defense. Instead, like its other interventions in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and elsewhere in the Middle East, it is an illegal participant in the ongoing conflict in Yemen…………..


    • “”Given that the Pentagon and CIA have kept America at war for some 25 years, it’s easy for Americans to recognize the truthfulness of Madison’s statement. Americans now live under a political regime whose democratically elected president, together with the army, CIA, and NSA, now wields some of the most extraordinary powers in history:

      The power to assassinate people.

      The power to kidnap people and incarcerate them for life in concentration camps and military dungeons.

      The power to torture people.

      The power to invade countries.

      The power to initiate coups.

      The power to spy on people, monitor their Internet activity, and record their telephone calls.

      None of those powers are consistent with a free society. They are all consistent with totalitarian regimes. And everyone should take note: Whoever is elected president — Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton — will be wielding all those dictatorial powers in conjunction with a national-security establishment that is dead-set on keeping America embroiled in conflicts all over the world for the next 25 years.”"


      This is the power delivered as the central bankers fund the war machine with unlimited money that is piled on the back of the tax payer as an addition to the national debt. (Doubled by Obama, now 20 times what it was a mere 16 years ago. Central bank, fiat currency, madness). Honest money prohibits war and avoids debt.)

  19. michaelcoughlan

    A contrarian view;

    “A country is experiencing a shortage of supply of starter houses; builders say they can’t make enough profit at the existing prices to make it worth building. What would happen if the government gave people a tax break to help them buy houses? Would the price of houses go up or down? Please demonstrate your answer with basic economic charts of supply and demand”

    Response from a savvy teenage student;

    Dear David the price will rise. I can’t supply you with a chart right now because we are using all available paper for loo roll as my builder daddy has been out of work for the last 8 years because the cost of building completed houses was above the price available in the market.

    The good news is since prices have risen since last Friday Daddy is starting a new job Monday morning building houses. We will then be able to purchase paper for the purposes of supplying you with your relevant graph. Daddy agrees with you that the government are indeed morons as their policies inadvertently forced him into unemployment.

    Daddy said though that the aggregate figure of 330k is the figure set by the MARKET all things considered and would be the same figure irrespective of what percentage each component makes up of the total. My daddy said the only aggregate that counts other than the stuff used in concrete is the aggregate of total units produced as when supply increases price drops.

    Daddy said to tell you Stalin din’t use the word aggregate he used the word collectivise and shot any individual who didn’t think that Stalin’s policies were good for him personally. Daddy just wants you to know that the reason he is so well informed about this is because he had plenty of time on his hands to read up on economic matters during his idle years.

    Daddy knows that this of course was the the result of an aggregate view taken by the economists in Europe when the people of Ireland were told it was better for the aggregate of the European banking system to take it where the sun didn’t shine and tolerate both emigration and Immigration to drive down the labour cost of the 330k portion. This of course was to free up the capacity of the individual to pay and could be taxed off him in wealth taxes since his income was falling and transferred to the European banking system once again in the name of aggregation.

    The paradox my Daddy has to contend with is that the more the fuckers who run the banks fuck the world up the higher their salaries and bonuses become when the better he gets at his job the more the accounts who run his business are determined to cut his wages.

    You diligent student,

    Pull my plumber.


    • EugeneN

      Why do houses need to be 330k ( ten times the median salary) to become profitable when they were 2-3 times the median salary in the 80′s?

      • michaelcoughlan

        Tony will explain that one to you. Increase in the money supply by increasing debt. Its not mathematically possible to do the right thing because the money supply has to increase exponentially or the whole thing comes down in the current system.

        • Sideshow Bob

          Flawless logic jump there. Obviously no other factors at play at all. Case solved by the Micheal and Tony team of know it all keyboard warriors.

          So, other countries which are subject to QE by the ECB, what is the price of construction doing in them? Profit, loss, cost, etc. You know nice well off European countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, etc, – I suppose you know all about those countries, too.

          Just apply the model there…it can´t be wrong!

      • Basic inflation of the commodity markets has raised prices. Jobs are offshored to the lowest places for wages on earth.
        Since Nixon reneged on the gold standard for the dollar there has been unlimited funding for any deficit spending government and trade deals have opened the flow of capital and labour to world wide markets.
        The down pressure on wages, labour costs, have been immense. Add in automation and there has been a flood of cheap manufactured goods available world wide.
        Housing is static and cannot be offshored, unless one resorts to manufactured housing that have standardized components and are put together like Lego. But even then the commodities used in housing have gone up in price through inflation of money supply.
        Housing components are bulky and expensive to transport.

        The net result is that wages since 1970 have gone up 7-10 times while commodity prices are up 15-20 times
        In 1970 at interest rates of 10-12% for a mortgage a single wage could buy a house. Now with rates at 2-5% it takes two and a half incomes to buy a house.

        Put more succinctly, the average hour of labour buys 45% of what it did in 1970 when applied to the basics of living. Food, shelter, and related items. The real annual price increases are 7%, in line with the growth in money supply.
        (As an aside, With the Growth in the economy lucky to exceed three percent, and inflation rate of 7% means an actual effective growth rate of negative 4%. This means the economy is in depression and has been for years. government lies ans statistics cloud this truth. The truth is realized by the middle class and poorer peoples resulting in the appeal of Brexit and Trump and Le Pen etc.)

        This is the result of the constant production of new money in accelerating volume. The inflation of money supplied results in it being worth less and less until no amount of money will buy anything at all.

        As for the housing market. It relies on commodities to be built, expensive (relative to other goods) labour and is not easily automated, and is subjected to a plethora of rules, regulations and restriction of land supply. Land (a commodity) is very expensive and makes up a large portion of the cost of housing.

        As it sits at present the only thing that will reduce the cost of housing is a general market and economic collapse. At which point the very people who cannot afford to buy today will still not be able to buy tomorrow. Unless, that is, they have savings in solid commodity assets which will buy more not less in a downturn.

        • Sideshow Bob

          Land has never been classified by any economist as a commodity. You like your e-mate, Coughlan, are spoofing.

          • michaelcoughlan


            Spoofing? Really? Ad hominem attack asshole.

          • Sideshow Bob

            No land has never been classified as a commodity. A commodity is a service or a good. When somebody who says they were a real estate agent ( unsurprisingly ) gets this wrong it only serves to underline the quality of what that speaker is saying and any sycophants, like yourself. It is spoofing and group think.

            You repeatedly blaming QE and that BS mantra about supply reducing the price of housing for in Ireland is also a piece of unsubstantiated spoofing.

        • Sideshow Bob

          I saw plots of land 500m2-1500m2 for sale in a beautiful and relatively well-off part of Spain recently, some 15 mins to a major city and closer still to an international airport, fully serviced ( electric, gas, water and drainage ) with slick finished footpaths and neat small roads and numbered gates ready for medium to large 2-4 storey detached homes, for 70-100k each. The estate was already developed somewhat with varied house types set in trees and with some choice landscaping added to the abundant vegetation that had been kept, all on lush green hill sides. And there were more green sites about, awaiting their turn for development also. My friend showed me a model of prefabricated house nearby inside the estate, 180 m sq or so I guessed, and said they could be purchased for 30k minus fittings, and so, allowing also for a nice fit out ( ceramic tile floors all round, gas boiler, nice modern fittings and some furniture ) and the necessary professional fees (lawyer, estate agent and architect/engineer) the total cost for this tidy family home in a great setting would come in at about 150k, and it would be ready for in-habitation in a few months.

          Of course, that was the most basic package in this case. You could do a lot more if you had the dosh, more stories or even maybe a pool, if you liked.

          There are a number of reasons why this very sensible and well finished financially sustainable development couldn´t at present happen in Ireland; planning stupidity, excessive tax and rigid forms of financing come to mind were the significant ones that came to mind at the time. QE is not a factor that came to mind.

          However, I am beginning to think it is people like Michael Coughlan and yourself are the biggest obstacle to simpler thinking. Empty vessels, etc, etc…and to that I would add, “and tend to drown out everyone else in the process´´. You are simply a distraction to the real issues.

          I take my leave.

    • McCawber

      I doubt only one thing in your post.
      Ie that daddy had plenty of time on his hands.
      Daddy was probably knee deep in bank alligators and well beyond stress.
      He just hid it from you because he loves you.

  20. DJR

    But Daddy won’t be building a house for you unless you earn €75k a year. Because Daddy doesn’t think the market is rigged. Or that young people are being screwed every which way – either stump up €330k or we won’t build you any houses and you can pay more than a mortgage to rent a place.
    How many developers are on €200,000 salaries from nama for the last five years for doing not a whole lot of building?

    • michaelcoughlan


      I am not sure what your points but let me respond in good faith. Increasing supply will drive down price to more affordable salary levels.

      It is the government who are responsible for the failures not the builders.

      Re Nama; I think the figure is in fact 300k and the ans to the 2nd part is they got the 300k for basically de leaveraging their own balance sheets.

      My metaphorical daddy is an employee and it’s his boss probably an accountant who won’t employ his capital unless their is an adequate ROI.

      • EugeneN

        Increassing supply wont drive prices down below the level the developers refuse to build at which is clearly above the level it is now, or the government wouldnt have given them this bung. That means that prices have to rise from a level that is too expensive already for most.

        • michaelcoughlan


          “Increasing supply wont drive prices down below the level the developers refuse to build”

          It most certainly will and has for 8 years in many parts of the country. How supply is increased is a different matter.

          I agree completely with your second point.

          • Sideshow Bob

            “It most certainly will and has for 8 years in many parts of the country.´´

            It has never, never done this. Nothing in the record supports this.

            Supply fell off a cliff from 2008 onwards and prices in some places eventually went up due to pressure ( scarcity ) and returning sentiment. Please stop warping reality to fit your mantras.

          • michaelcoughlan

            Wrong again sideshow bob. There was a massive oversupply of houses for the past 8 years for the total number of people with money to purchase the same. I warp fuck all and leave that to accountants cooking bank balance sheets.

        • StephenKenny

          That’s only really true in either what is effectively a command economy, or in a third world economy – thus the home-made huts.

  21. redriversix

    A house is a building , a home is a feeling.

    I cannot afford a house,but I do have a home.

    You talk of “basic rules of economics or macroeconomics”

    The Governments of the last 16 years make up their own economic policies, yet we try and use traditional held economic views to make sense of this,which obviously does not work.

    Debating ideas that are brought in by subservient Government is a waste of time. These people are intellectually lazy and are moral cowards.

    They follow extreme capitalism without question. They need not fear the people anymore as most have short memories and are of limited courage. They do not have the courage to reject debt,they do not have the courage to save,to work, to reject poor wages or they accept a price for a job that will not cover their costs as they do not have the courage to value their own work…so they will use debt to advance themselves or their SME.

    This is a failure before we start the day.

    Stupidity is in charge and now has great credibility..those who ask questions are shunned,those who show initiative are ridiculed.

    Europe is drowning in debt ,our government policies lead to debt, our brokers and pension advisors trade in debt..

    We are now at War..a Fourth World war…

    Millennials will not know how to deal with the changing times ,a soft generation,raised in the bosom of a paper Celtic tiger…

    “Those who try to ride the Tiger will end up inside him”


    cash is king ,debt is our enemy,with debt comes slavery,millennia get into debt through third level education now,reducing earlier,their choices because with debt comes fear,fear is victory for Governments.

    • michaelcoughlan


      “Those who try to ride the Tiger will end up inside him”

      That statement re the tiger could be equally interpreted from both the front and rear end of the tiger!

      LOL :-)

      Warm Regards,


    • Truthist

      Very good post.

    • michaelcoughlan

      “Debating ideas that are brought in by subservient Government is a waste of time. These people are intellectually lazy and are moral cowards.

      They follow extreme capitalism without question. They need not fear the people anymore as most have short memories and are of limited courage. They do not have the courage to reject debt,they do not have the courage to save,to work, to reject poor wages or they accept a price for a job that will not cover their costs as they do not have the courage to value their own work…so they will use debt to advance themselves or their SME”

      That passage is second to none. In fact it is so deep it could easily be missed. I had to read it three or four times to cop on to the message.

      The failure of a Republic is the collective failure of the citizenry.

      Great stuff altogether.


      • redriversix

        Thanks Michael

        I have a lot to say ….even to contribute,your last comment in relation to our collective failure as citizens and a Republic is a excellent comment.

        However ,this fight against fear and debt must start at home.

        Work ethics.education,responsibility & simple budgets ,as individuals we must regain our strength,we must teach our dependents to question without arrogance,to learn to listen ,to be dependable. To take pride in their work & appearance.To treat others as we would like to be treated.

        Ultimately,to return to basics,we do not need permission to inact any of the above.

        In our homes,we are our Government, we must be or take back or teach ourselves or parents to be parents

        Fear is a disease sold every day ,it must be overcome.

        Treat every euro as a prisoner..stay away from debt. Listen ,learn & educate

        Is a economist someone who didn’t have the personality to be a accountant ????

        Looking forward to kilkenomics ????

        • michaelcoughlan

          “Is a economist someone who didn’t have the personality to be a accountant ????”

          It’s the other way around. LOL.

          You going to Kilkenomics?

        • Truthist

          U are elaborating with practical guidance in this part.
          All good stuff.
          But, Redriversix, the Irish State has many private security Goons now placed in the offices where civil SERPENTS work ;
          All trained to interfere, intimidate, & assault the citizen when the citizen trying to exercise their constitutional rights.
          The fear is NOT unjustified.
          By the way, I hope u agree that the Landlord-Gardai / Gardai-Landlords are totally undeserving of any pay increases.

          • redriversix

            Unfortunately Truthist

            I believe Gardai are entitled to wage restoration and a payrise if due.

            So are Nurses ,teachers Bus & tram drivers.

            If people try to supplement their income through farming or renting houses or building , good luck to them.

            I am not a civil servant. Just to clarify.

            Their is nothing wrong for one generation to try and make things better for the next.

            These dreams & aspirations are perfectly legitimate and would be hard for anyone to disagree with , particularly those with families.

            What you see wrong with our State over the last 26 years is deliberate policy.be it banking , housing ,security education Health and our social services system yet columnists ,commentators , opposition & journalists thing it is mismanagement or ,if they are far right..”the correct policy”

            We pay for social services that we no longer have or..are being deliberately run down in a lead into privatisation.

            Their is a great amount of fear in every day jobs as well as in the Gardai,Health services ,Social services etc.

            Nobody wants to rock the boat..their are many good people working in these institutions..but when you talk to them about every day life..be it patients on trolleys or injustice or sick people refused medical cards or Garda time being wasted …

            I have heard the same refrain from one & all

            ” you know what ? Fuck it.. I can’t care anymore”

            It’s the “Shock doctrine” all over

            Disaster capitalism and until their is a massive reset to year zero it will continue to get worse for the average person throughout the world

            For further information see the last 150 years in boom & bust .War ,economic policies ,industrial revolution.etc etc etc



  22. mike flannelly

    The Daft Trinity guy tells us that the median Irish household income is 45,000 euro, so based on the 3.5 times income rule they qualify for a mortgage of 157.500 euro.

    “When all the rest of the first time buyers avail of the same tax break it simply cancels out the individual advantage and forces everyone to compete with each other at higher prices if the market is tight.” -DMW

    The customers for the 320,000e house need to be earning double the Irish median household income. There is only a limited market in the first place for these houses.
    The 3.5 times income threshold stops the limited number of buyers competing at higher prices.

    I dont think that it is as black and white as DMW makes it out to be.

    “The same thing happens when the market is slack and faced with too many houses and broken balance sheets like it was in 2008. Banks would tell the individual who had too much debt to sell his extra apartment to fix his balance sheet.” – DMW.

    We now know that in 2008 the government promoted Irish bankers were overvaluing the debt on land banks by 900% and the debt on apartments by 200%.

    In 1999, the Irish butcher,baker and candlestick maker bought an apartment for 100,000 pounds(127,000e) and had a mortgage of 80,000 pounds(101.600e). The annual rents were about 8,400 pounds or more than 10% of the overall mortgage. The mortgage repayments were 489e/mth @ 5.6% with a rent of 700/mth.
    The rents were 143 % of the mortgage payments. This helped keep the property in good repair and contribute to its affordability after tax considerations.

    In 2008 the another butcher, baker and candlestick maker bought an EXTRA apartment because they had no unfunded pension to fall back on in old age. They bought the 350,000 apt using their 50,000e life savings and a 300,000e mortgage from our government promoted lending professionals. Normally the monthly rent should be 130% of the mortgage payments.
    The monthly rent was 900e but the mortgage repayments were 1,880 e @ 5.86%.
    The rents were only 50% of the mortgage repayments but the mortgages were packaged with interest only repayments for 5 yrs to make them look more affordable.

    When the shit hit the fan the Irish banks wanted the butcher, baker and candlestick maker to sell their extra apartment and crystallize a 200,000 LOSS rather than rehabilitate or restructure the debt. Interest only or industry best practice split mortgage restructures would have helped the bank customers deal with their investment mortgages that had ZERO investment value from day one.

    I can never understand how fireselling property assets cheaper than labour and material costs plus the crystallization of a loss against no profit is called cleaning up the balance sheet.

    • michaelcoughlan

      “I can never understand how fire selling property assets cheaper than labour and material costs plus the crystallization of a loss against no profit is called cleaning up the balance sheet”

      You are correct it didn’t. What cleaned up the balance sheet was the capital asset stripped from the citizen and transferred to the bank for that purpose to make up the difference between the price achieved in the fire sale and the original price.

    • EugeneN

      very little of that happened. Nearly everybody kept their houses, and BTL landlords got to pay back interest only loans.

  23. Truthist

    My motives for giving u information about Hillary Clinton are :
    u become more wise to how much a crazy dangerous nasty person she is
    u influence U.S.A. imminent voters to vote for Trump instead ;
    Trump being the lesser of 2 evils
    u become alert to her supporters in the Irish State ;
    These supporters — which include politicians independent [ e.g. Ms. Zapponne ; Min. for Childeren & Youth ], & Fianna Fail, & Fianna Gael, & Labour, & Progressive Democrats, & Sinn Fein, & Anti-Austerity Alliance, & feminists [ especially militant "misandry" & "pro-abortion" & "sexual dysfunction" activism feminists ] — are to be correctly understood as morally culpable with Kill-ary Clinton.
    Must Watch!! Hillary Clinton tried to ban this video

  24. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-deutsche-bank-settlement-silver-idUSKBN12H2HB

    Deutsche Bank to pay $38 million in U.S. silver price-fixing case

    Just a small licensing fee as the cost of doing business!!

  25. Sideshow Bob

    I will tell you one sure thing David McWilliams; you are no property economics professor.

    Any independent property economics (real estate, if you like) expert who could speak freely would debunk the false assumptions that your ideas are based on immediately with simple imperical evidence.

    Real property is not private property. It is bounded by a completely different set of laws ( and hence governing factors) than private property from where your price equilibrum models derive. Take a look at real estate for example and the laws that govern it in a hierarchial sequence; first there is the ancient canon of land law which has its origin in the 13th and 14th century. On top of this apply nuisance law, rights to light and of passage ( all variation s of tort law ).These exist indeprndently but are to some extent incorporated into planning law as it is applied though the main focus of this is to govern development possibilities. Then building control, environmental and health and safety legislation. Then apply contract law and any laws ancilliary to running a business and waste disposal. Private property ( goods ) has just the final ( latter ) layer of laws to be applied. It is altogethrr simpler. This isn’t even a case of comparing apples with oranges and saying yhry are the same thing: it is more like blueberries and pumpkins and saying they are the same thing.

    • EugeneN

      How do these laws affect his argument?

      • michaelcoughlan


      • Sideshow Bob

        In short it results in high levels of complexity, huge variables in possible costs , outputs, times involved ( sometimes years from start to finish on a project ), incomes cash flow solvency and profit or loss and that is before you get involved with normal business costs. plus with othet goods and products yhere would be the possibility of moving them to another place or country and selling them if things didn’t work out. Try doing that with buildings. I don’t have time to expand on this now but perhaps I could here in 24-36 hours or on another thread sometime.

        • michaelcoughlan

          A nonsensical response. You make the following statement above “Real property is not private property.” and this second response still bears no relevance to your original post.

      • Sideshow Bob


        Ok. Lets take one recent example and discuss it briefly. It is called the B(C)ARs system and is a component of the building control laws that I referred to, one of the many suites of laws that apply and affect the built environment.

        So,a few years ago,in the wake of the Priory Hall debacle the Government introduced requirements for extensive information ( detailed drawings and specifications ) and certification with large criminal and civil liability placed on the main certifiers, who all had to signed up members of relevant institutes ( Surveyors, Engineers, Architects, etc ) and not yer man down the road who was handy at tech drawing and little else. It fails in two or three key aspects; it dosen´t have an independent inspector as in the UK i.e. Local Authority (LA) inspector and therefore the role of the LA here is just to see that drawings and certs are lodged and they aren´t even obliged to visit or confirm anything is in line with the building regs. Therefore the liability is completely transferred to the PRIVATE SECTOR, which of course means that the PI insurance of above mentioned certifiers goes through the roof and the cost of that lawful compliance is passed on to THE PRICE OF THE BUILDING that is in addition to the cost of the certifying work, fees payable to the LA and and time implications.

        To give you an idea of the scale of the F***-*P that is the BCARs system the equivalent cost in the UK for this element is something like 500-1,000 euros per dwelling. Here the Government estimated at 3-4,000 euros per dwelling ( back of an envelope estimate by a civil service mandarin no doubt ) and according to the industry the true cost has been 15-30,000 euros per unit depending on who you chose to believe. Of course this goes on to the buyers price.

        This a type of inflation has nothing got to do with market forces or that QE blather that some people hereabouts throw about as the reason for everything.

        Second main problem with the BCARs is that is a bad copy of system from the UK which is being laid down over an existing Planning and Building Control Framework. Planning already demands an excessively high level of information and there are seperate and additional process of Fire and DA certs if applicable too. All of this cost goes to the end user. And it is unlike to be effective, because it so badly designed.

        Of course every run through a bureaucratic hoop ( and there are many here) creates the possibility of other minors complications, cost and delays.

        So, this all being a bit stupid Alan Kelly (AK-47 himself) came along and changed the rules about a year ago so that self building one-off houses could now opt-out of the certification system. Last year this was about 5k of the 10k units produced ( there is no building taking place ) and of that 5K about 9 out of 10 of those one-off builders opted out. So, you know have a two-tier housing building system where despite the H 7 S and quality concerns being the same in both parts the vast majority of people purchasing a new home have to pay a ( possibly pointless ) 5-10% extra administrative cost and the self builders don´t, for quite possibly, the exact same product.

        Also, and roughly speaking the benefit of first time buyers grant was already wiped out before it was given.

        Try working the effects of even a small point like that into your simplistic equilibrium models.


  26. Peter Atkinson

    Maybe Minister Noona should have consulted with Spock and his sound advice in The Wrath of Khan before introducing that thoughtless tax break. FG could be best described as Klingons in their quest to cling on to power. We are definitely screaming out for THE NEXT GENERATION.

    • michaelcoughlan

      From the link;

      “The euro has even greater challenges than sterling which has collapsed more than 43% against gold this year”

      I wonder Tony what our Keynesian host has to say now about hard money? LOL.

      From the link;

      “And he savaged the whole idea of a federal “United States of Europe”

      I wonder McWilliams what Sutherland thinks now? Do you think the slimy bastard will hand back any of the obscene salaries and bonus’s he accumulated over the years?


      • Pound is down 56% v. silver. YTD

        • michaelcoughlan

          Jesus H Christ.

          Found out recently Tony that coins in the US pre 1965 were 90% silver. Probably trickie (dick head) dickie nixon did away with it.

          Looks like your average brit is going the way of the average Irish citizen.

          • You can buy bags of silver coin that were basically sterling alloy. The silver coins need to be pre 1964 (correct me on the date).
            Bags of junk silver are available from many PM dealers and sell for the spot value of the silver plus or minus a premium according to the market. The perceived advantage of buying bullion silver in such coin is that it is in small denominations that are readily spent in times of crisis, rather than the value of the one ounce silver coin.

  27. Truthist

    Around 8:30 a.m. officers with the counterterrorism unit arrived to the scene and ordered Scioli to dismantle and remove the statue because he failed to get a permit for the demonstration.
    No one was arrested and no one received a summons, according to police.
    The statue was taken away in a van moments later, cops said.

  28. Truthist

    Dr. Al Assad: Israel No Different Than ISIS, Al-Qaida
    “For me, it’s a very strange thing,” he began.
    “Daesh, ISIS, with their ideology, never threaten Israel.
    And Israel never threaten[s] Daesh, ISIS.
    It’s like some kind of agreement about – maybe not friendship – but neutrality. Why, [do] you think, it’s like this ?
    And what’s the role of Israel in this war ?”
    Israel is actively working to “undermine” Syria by supporting “terrorism,” Syria’s embattled president Bashar Assad said in an interview with Russian tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda on Friday.
    “There’s no contradiction between Israel & any organization like
    al-Nusra (recently renamed as Jabhat Fateh al-Sham)
    any Al-Qaida-linked organization,”
    said Assad.
    The Syrian leader was responding to a question from the Russian reporter, who took a largely friendly tone with Assad throughout the interview.
    Assad didn’t mince words in his response:
    “Anyone, any terrorist who holds a machinegun and started killing & destroying in Syria was supported by Israel ;
    Either indirectly through the logistical support on the frontier,
    or sometimes by direct intervention by Israel against Syria in different areas in Syria.”
    As Assad put it,
    Israel has adopted this so-called policy “because Israel is our enemy, because they occupy our lands.
    And they look at Syria as [an] enemy of course.
    And for them they think if they undermine the position of Syria & make it weaker as a whole, as [a] society, as [an] army, as [a] state, that will prevent Israel from moving toward the peace.
    And the price for peace is to give back the Golan Heights to Syria.
    So, for them, Syria will be busy with another issue now.”

    “It’s ridiculous,” the reporter agreed.
    “What they tell, it’s ridiculous, when they tell ‘we are fighting with ISIS.’ They made ISIS.”

  29. redriversix

    It is a valid point that ISIS has never attached Israel.

    Highly unlikely to see any debate..


  30. McCawber

    78% of Irish consumers use their mobile phones to make purchases.
    I 100% do not believe that statistic.

  31. Truthist

    Yip, Hillary Clinton the evil hypocrite about caring for women & children.
    Here is a handy blurb from her taped interview where she is boasting & chuckling how she got a male rapist of a female child scot-free from being sentenced despite she knowing he guilty ;

  32. Truthist

    Looks more probable now with stuff like this ;
    UK Nat West Bank has seized all bank accounts of Russia Today (RT) to end their broadcasting, according to its editor-in-chief- Margarita Simonyan who took to Twitter to announce:
    “They’ve closed our accounts in Britain. All our accounts.
    ‘The decision is not subject to review.’
    Praise be to the freedom of speech!”
    RT says that its bank NatWest, a division of the Royal Bank of Scotland Group, has declined to provide any information for its decision and says it is not appealable.
    In a letter written to RT the bank said:
    “We have recently undertaken a review of your banking arrangements with us and reached the conclusion that we will no longer provide these facilities.
    You will therefore need to make alternative banking arrangements outside of The Royal Bank of Scotland Group.”
    Nat West informed RT that all its accounts would be cancelled on December 12th. It said the “decision is final and we are not prepared to enter into any discussion in relation to it.”

  33. ‘Trader/analyst Gregory Mannarino says don’t be fooled by the recent surge in the markets. Mannarino explains, “I think the Federal Reserve is legitimately becoming fearful of what they have done. There is no recovery here whatsoever. All you have to do is look at two metrics and two metrics only. The Labor Force Participation Rate remains near record lows. The money velocity, that’s the rate the money is moving through our economy, is remaining at record lows. Without these two metrics moving higher, you cannot have a recovery. What we have here is a debt bubble, and everything is being inflated right now on the back of that debt bubble. I think some people at the Federal Reserve are trying to warn people that the environment we are in is very dangerous. We’re hearing the biggest guns on Wall Street, all of them, and not one of them is not trying to say something is very wrong here. We keep hearing about a debt market super nova, that the bond market is in a bubble, which is inflating a stock market bubble. . . . There’s never been anything like this. This is uncharted territory. The Federal Reserve never had a plan to get out. . . . Now, their new scheme is they want the economy to ‘run hot.’ . . . Janet Yellen (Fed Head) said ‘the only way to prevent this economic horror show from becoming a permanent scar is to allow the economy to run hot. Meaning, to let inflation creep in while continuing to suppress interest rates. In other words, make all of us pay more for everything. They are so desperate.”"


  34. mike flannelly

    ” All you have to do is look at two metrics and two metrics only.” – Tony.

    Irish Economists have stopped looking at metrics. They ignore real value debt because they made no effort when it came to rehabilitating debt after the debt crash.

    Tut Tut, they say.

    To this day Irish economists are calling the Debt Bubble of 2008 a property bubble despite the fact that we needed the houses.

    Leaving cert economic students understand that it was ignoring debt affordability metrics that caused house prices to rise above their real value.

    The same is true for the economics of pensions. Superannuation payments should be compensated with median pension payouts in line with private pensions when the country has 210 bn in debt.

    Golden unfunded pensions for select citizens are eroding the services of ALL citizens and are completely unconstitutional.

    Irish economists need to offer our leaving cert students some economic logic instead of TUT TUT.

  35. Truthist

    I assume yee are intelligent enough to know the wood from the trees.
    So, when I give links, I expect yee to use yer discretion.
    http://www.veterenstoday.com does have good articles

    Especially from the likes of ;
    Jonas Alexis ;
    And, no, NOT a typo spelling of Alex Jones 8-)
    They are 2 different people.
    Regrettably, veteranstoday.com is known also to have compromised contributions
    deliberately wacky stuff about UFOs & lizard-human mutants from time to time by Preston James PhD ; And, this despite he sometimes writing some great articles.
    And, editor & owner of this site — Gordon Duff — has admitted to giving much “Disinformation” deliberately on the site.
    Veteranstoday.com appears to be a front of Intelligence Service of USA that has as its policy “black-washing of” truthful & valuable revelations by mere insertion of other articles enthusing belief in clearly crazy stuff.
    “Black-washing by association” / “Guilt by association”
    For some time also, Veteranstoday is involved in :
    “black-washing” Trump
    “white-washing” Hillary Clinton.
    e.g.s are rife in this link ;

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