June 16, 2016

Who am I to question Officialdom and say Brexit will be good for us?

Posted in Irish Independent · 132 comments ·
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Are you concerned at the lack of any real analysis in Official Ireland’s position with regard to the upcoming EU referendum in Britain?

 

Do you find it odd that in a plebiscite as tight as this, where the implications for politics, economics and society are so uncertain, that our Government and the main organs of the Irish State are so overwhelmingly backing one side?

 

Wouldn’t it be far more sophisticated to assess what is in Ireland’s interest and act accordingly?

 

Why has Official Ireland lined up so unambiguously on one side in a debate with two potential outcomes and uncertain ramifications?

Maybe the reason is that this is exactly how Ireland works. Ireland is a country that is enormously susceptible to ‘group think’.

 

We saw this during the boom. At the very top in Ireland there was no questioning the official mantra of the ‘soft landing’ because the people at the top had created the mantra.

 

We are seeing something similar with the ‘Brexit will be a catastrophe’ mantra.

 

We are a small country, with a small number of people at the top politically, socially, in the business world, academia, the professions and the commentariat.

 

In small countries, people at the top tend to promote people who think like them.

 

After all, this is the prerogative of being powerful, it’s kind of natural. So the top is not only bonded by social class – with access, power and money – but it is also cemented by a suite of ideas. Like all clubs, the suite of ideas becomes a sort of creed.

 

The creed, which is only a set of common notions shared by people who promote each other, soon morphs from being a set of ideas into something called conventional wisdom.

 

Therefore, far from being an open place where ideas are teased out and examined, the top of a society, or the professions, becomes an echo chamber of conformity.

 

Conventional wisdom is the great bully pulpit of conventional people. You will notice that powerful people, who believe in conventional wisdoms, like to be taken very seriously.

 

So in time, a conventional idea will come to be believed by a group who are termed by themselves and others as ‘serious people’.

 

Serious people like to hang with other serious people and congregate around a few serious ideas.

 

The other implication is, of course, that those people who might question the conventional wisdom are not serious people.

 

They are cranks! They are not to be taken seriously. They are mavericks or – even worse for serious people – dismissed as ‘self-promoters’!

 

Serious people never see themselves as promoters of anything as base as themselves (the group does that); and, anyway, the conventional wisdom is the self-evident truth and doesn’t have to be promoted.

 

This, ladies and gentlemen, is how propaganda begins; and this is how ‘group think’ becomes solidified in a small society.

 

Therefore, we get to a situation where a contentious statement like ‘Britain leaving the EU will be bad for Ireland’ stops being a ‘contention’ and miraculously becomes a ‘truth’.

 

It is the same process that transformed the contention ‘Ireland will have a soft landing’ from being a highly questionable assertion to become the conventional wisdom of the society.

 

But back then, those who questioned this conventional wisdom weren’t debated with but dismissed or ridiculed. The reason for dismissing those with unconventional counterviews is because deep in the soul of the ‘serious’ person is the fear of being wrong.

 

Because he has invested so much time in the conventional wisdom and all his friends believe it too, and the belief is a gelling agent which binds the group together, the conventional man risks ridicule if he is wrong.

 

Because if he is wrong, how can he be serious?

 

In truth we are all wrong all the time, because we are human. But being so human is not what being serious is all about.

 

Serious people think themselves to be infallible. This fear of being wrong is the reason so many serious people spout such nonsense on so many issues, even when events suggest they may be wrong. I suppose there must be comfort in numbers.

 

Indeed, the great economist JK Galbraith, when speaking about such serious conventional people, observed that: “When faced with the choice to change his mind or find the proof not to do so, the conventional man always gets busy looking for the proof.”

 

This is where bad economics comes in because so much of economics is used to quench debate and opinion. Economics, with its pretense of certainty via numerical answers, can often stifle dissent because it purports to have the single right answer.

 

So models are used to prove that Brexit will be a disaster.

 

In the past few weeks, rarely can so much spurious economic argument have been deployed with such abandon and so much certainty.

 

In fact, rarely has so much ‘opinion’ been shoved into economic models in order to produce ‘fact’.

 

Here in Ireland and all across Europe, ‘Giga’ econometric models have been cranked up to support, almost overwhelmingly, the Remain side. Can I remind you that the last time we had such uniform certainty from economic models was also during the ‘soft landing’ era. We all know what happened next.

 

These are Giga models: ‘Garbage in, garbage out’.

 

A Giga model is marketed as being at the cutting edge of economic forecasting, bolstered by unimpeachable rigour and mathematical elegance. But in truth, these models are more often than not wrong.

 

The reason is simple: these models fail to forecast that one creature who is central to how the economy works – you, the human being.

 

But despite a lamentable record in the past forecasting the future growth path of the economy, they are being used confidently today to tell us what will happen tomorrow.

 

I’ve no idea what might happen economically if there’s a Brexit. My hunch is that it might be good for Ireland.

 

What is clear is that Official Ireland, by backing one horse in a two-horse race, has taken the tyranny of conventional wisdom to its limits once again.


  1. Zenmonk

    On the money as per David, this group of whom you speak are not only mostly ignorant, but completely arrogant about their ignorance. Same schools, same unis, similar social groups or aspiring to be. Most are so beholder to the ‘Mother’ country that cannot conceive a world where they are not umbilically attached to their old masters. Classic neo colonials.

  2. SMOKEY

    When all political parties in Ireland agree or have a consensus with each other, you should fully understand that they dont know Shit from Shinola about the subject.
    In other words, they are hedging a bet. Clueless. Speculation without due diligence. Soundbites.
    I watched it play out for the last few months with the talking heads on the radio saying, Oh Trump will never get the nomination, all of them, now nervously choking on their tongues. Ha Ha says I.
    Vote Trump. Vote Leave. And stop unchecked invasions from Turd World Hellholes into the UK and USA. Now do the chant, USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA……..

  3. Pat Flannery

    At least David and I share a common trait: neither of us ”serious people”.

    We do not conform to the ”conventional wisdom” that Brexit would be bad for Ireland. But we have entirely different beliefs about why Brexit may actually benefit Ireland. David believes it will joyously bring Ireland closer to Britain’s motherly embrace, while I believe it will finally free Ireland from the long-time abuse of a bigger neighbour, Britain.

    The most interesting stage of this debate will start after we know the result: In or Out. Will Ireland start to move away from Britain’s motherly embrace or will it succumb to more abuse? Only then will we see what David’s true idea of ”conventional wisdom” really is. I have a feeling he will deploy (Anglophile) groupthink in even greater measure than Official Ireland undoubtedly does currently on the evils of Brexit.

  4. Deco

    TINA “There Is No Alternative”.

    It seems to be the main construct of the pronouncements of official Ireland.

    Anybody who thinks of alternative viewpoints is immediately downgraded to being an uncool person. In fact, anybody who even thinks is deemed a problem.

    Well, course BREXIT will be good for us. Europe is being increasingly dominated by an imperial version of the Richelieu state model that has dominated France since the 1630s. This model is simply bonkers. To say that there is no alternative is to condemn an entire continent to subjection to utter nonsense.

    I don’t fear BREXIT. I fear what will follow if the centralists in Brussels get an endorsement. The last thing that serial blunderers need is encouragement.

    We are living in the political equivalent of what Huxley described in his text “A Brave New World”. People are endlessly conditioned to accept mediocrity, to become domesticated for the purposes of obedience, to become weakened for the purposes of laziness.

    Official Ireland, has produced many disasters since the Treaty of Maastrichet. However, one thing that has been a serial success is the flow of money into people in positions of authority, whose economic worth is nil outside of a certain bureaucratic minded state.

    In other words, the statists want more statism, because it secures their income stream.

    Their hard sell is the argument that this is the essence of civilization. A large percentage of the electorate buy that. Actually, the opposite is true. It is rather like one of Naseem Taleb’s pronoucnements on anti-fragility. Their behaviour, within their authority model is a serious (and growing) burden on civilization that will not stop until they drive it over the cliffs.

    Ireland’s future is better if Britain leaves, because Ireland then has a choice. Ireland will have an alternative. The Irish people are not getting respect from Brussels.

    The FG party, as garrison enforcers for Brussels and Merkel, don’t want an alternative. FG are getting what they want, are are deaf to the intersts of the common people. FG belive in the Richelieu model of a state that provides the means of controlling the commoners. And will leverage the power of the imperial power state in Brussels to ensure that this happens.

    To be honest, the whole thing is gone off the rails.

    100 years after fighting for freedom, we have political leaders staged a very impressive event of minute detailed pagentry, before proceeding to business as usual, and running an expensive provincial garrison government. The antics of Enda Kenny would suggest that they would do anything for a few crumbs off the new master’s table. A pat on the head in Brussels for insulting the intelligence of Irish people in Britain, and our gombeens in charge are delighted.

    Brexit, it if occurs, will be the door to a bright future.

    “The price of greatness, is responisbility” Winston Churchill.

    Let’s try responsibility for a change, instead of obeying “dictats” (the official term) from Brussels (which is a conduit for lobbyists).

  5. Deco

    Richard Tol’s pronouncements concerning the ESRI come to mind. A bunch of chancers who routinely produce errors, in agreement with each other on the “correctness” of the thinking that keeps producing disasters.

    They are part of a system that does not have to produce value, it only exists to exercise authority, and control the masses.

    The objective of the ESRI is not economic forecasing for accuracy, it is future news production for the purposes of obedience, by impressing those soft enough to take it seriously.

  6. Zenmonk

    Deco – ’100 years after fighting for freedom, we have political leaders staged a very impressive event of minute detailed pagentry, before proceeding to business as usual, and running an expensive provincial garrison government’.

    100 years after fighting against freedom and leading a counter revolution on behalf of the colonial masters, it truly is ‘business as usual’.

  7. cooldude

    Interesting article David. Another term used is “all right thinking people”. This is pure “groupthink” and was used frequently during the debate or lack of debate around the famous bank bail out. Whenever I stated my case that failed insolvent institutions should be allowed to proceed where they belong (into insolvency) I would hear this mantra about how all right thinking people knew this couldn’t happen. Of course it could have happened and it would have been beneficial to this country like it was for Iceland.

    I am in favor of not just Brexit but also Eirexit as well. The level of fraud and corruption in Brussles is massive. The real power lies with the unelected burocrats and the so called commissioners are usually just failed politicians like Phil Hogan who clean up on the Brussles gravy train but have no real say and are happy to go along with this sham.

    Yes Brexit hopefully first and then a discussion on Eirexit. That would get the “right thinking people” in a proper knot.

    • Pat Flannery

      cooldude: ”The level of fraud and corruption in Brussels is massive.” I would love to see your documentation on that.

      • cooldude

        Pat try “Brussles Laid Bare” by Marta Andreasen or “Blowing The Whistle: Fraud in the European Commission” by Paul van Buitenen to get some idea og how it works. It is all deliberate to grease the politicians so they simply go along with the shifting of power to the unelected burocrats.

        I understand your dislike of the UK but if you think the EU is any way beneficial to Ireland you need to look a bit deeper.

      • Irish PI

        http://www.facebook.com/voteleave/
        Moving from Brussells to Strassbourg for literally four days a month.No reason for it other than the EU was founded in Straasbourg and it needs money to keep this backwater going.
        Need 120 trucks to move the paperwork up and down once a month.Not to mind beuracrats,ministers,camp followers and courtesans. This would be the equivilent of the US congress going to Philidelphia once a month just because the Declaration was signed there and Philly needs money. Estimated 130 million pounds sterling for this farsce. So tell us again about proof of graft and corruption NOT happening in the EU??

        • Pat Flannery

          Irish PI: a lack of efficiency argument by the voteleave FB page, yes, but hardly PROOF of your allegation of ”graft and corruption” or cooldude’s allegation that ”The level of fraud and corruption in Brussels is massive.”

          Do you have any PROOF of ”graft and corruption”? I am not denying it exists, I simply don’t know, but as a rational person I do need proof.

  8. A vote for #Brexit would be welcome but it’s no longer essential. The arrogance and hubris of the British Establishment has already been exposed by the close-run polls. Just as it was during the Scottish referendum for independence from the UK. There is no going back now. Even if ‘Remain’ nudge it, this is just the beginning, not the end. Ditto the ‘neverendum’ of Scottish independence. It’s all good. Amusingly, the latest poll shows a massive swing to Brexit which should provide for hilarious scenes from within the Cameron-Corbyn bunkers over the next few days.

    “The campaign to quit the European Union has surged into a six-point lead with exactly a week to go, a sensational Ipsos MORI poll reveals today. “

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-most-brits-do-want-to-leave-one-week-to-go-before-eu-referendum-vote-a3273141.html

    Cameron never intended to give the plebs of Scotland, England and Wales a plebiscite on the EU. He only granted it to try and quell the insurrection in his party over the EU. In his arrogant delusionality he assumed that his Establishment chums in the UK New Labour Party would do Brussel’s bidding and his by canvassing for ‘Remain’, but at the doorsteps the obedient New Labour stooges are all being told “#FcuKEU” by Brexit Labour voters who’ve had decades of lies over immigration from the metropolitan cosmopolitan elite who hijacked their party under Tony Blair. It’s all unravelled spectacularly. Break open the sparkling Hereford cider!

    The final week of Project Fear is certainly shaping up as an ‘event’. Yesterday we had the whore Osborne demean and discredit the role of UK Chancellor. As Chancelwhore (and hereditary Baronet of Tipperary) he clearly has the same vested interest in the status quo as that trollop Taoiseach-in-name-only Enda Kenny. The cheek of the eejit to turn up in London telling those who fled FF/FG incompetence and EU croneyism to vote for the same fate on this island is breathtaking. If it turns out that the latest generational wave of Irish Emigrant economic refugees in the UK act as a 5th column to keep the EU tyranny in place then that will be a very morbid outcome. As for the ludicrous Bob Geldof hurling abuse at Nigel Farage whilst telling Scottish fisherman & Cockney barrow boys that “I’m Irish”…..well, Bob, like Enda Kenny, keep your nose out of it, Paddy. Or else.

    It’s like a dream come true. First FF/FG are banjaxed by the Irish electorate, now the Tory/Labour regime in the UK is falling to pieces. Decades of neo-liberal de-industrialisation have left the UK Precariat with only this one chance to drop a nuke on the elite via Brexit. But even if the vote goes to ‘Remain’ this is just the battle, not the War. If it isn’t Brexit, it will be Grexit. The EU could have stumbled on for a century of vanity before it over-expanded and admitted Greece and then the Easter European cluster. It now forges on imagining Albania and Turkey can join the party. What nonsense. The whole nonsense is going to implode.

    Here’s my preferred road-map:

    1] Brexit
    2]Grexit
    3] ScotExitUK
    4] Federation of British city-states after collapse of ‘England’, ‘Scotland’ and ‘Wales’.
    5]Independent Norn Iron
    6]IRExit

    #FcUKEU

    • Pat Flannery

      Andrew: If you get your Confederate States of Britain, formerly the UK, where does Ireland belong? You recommend an ”IRExit” but where will Ireland exit to? I suspect you, like David, want it to exit it into the motherly embrace of old Britain.

      I don’t think that ordinary Irish people agree with you. In fact that is the real basis for the Irish TINA. Everybody knows the alternative and nobody wants it.

      I think in the years that will follow Brexit a future-facing Ireland will play a major role in creating a United States of Europe, divorced from Britain and its colonial past. That political and economic union of independent nation-states, mostly republics, will finally end the dark centuries of worldwide colonialism, characterised by free-wheeling exploitation, by competing European nations, mostly monarchies, led by monarchical Britannia.

      The British people are thus backward-facing, to their colonial, exploitive, monarchical past, while the Irish people are future-facing, republican United Europeans.

      The two don’t mix.

      • Ireland doesn’t belong in any current future scenario of a federation of UK city-states.

        I recommend IRExit to finally become what the delusional 1916 memes claims it has been for the past century: an independent Nation State. Finally free of the malign influence of the UK Crown, the Vatican and it’s real hidden enemy: the United States of America. Having studied the role of Timothy Geithner and O’bama (sic) during the financial crisis it is clear to me that the US (along with the UK) used Ireland Inc as a Trojan Horse to hedge their bets over the Euro. And the Irish gormlessly allowed themselves to be used as a sacrificial offering.

        If you seriously think that ‘a future-facing Ireland will play a major role in creating a United States of Europe, divorced from Britain and its colonial past’ then you are wilfully ignoring the debased servitude that was imposed on the Republic of Ireland by the Troika of the EU/ECB and the US run IMF.

        The most virulent example of ‘dark centuries of worldwide colonialism, characterised by free-wheeling exploitation,’ applies just as much to the United States, or have you forgotten about black slavery and the extirpation of the original inhabitants of the United States? Essentially, you are repeating The Irish Victim Script as excuse and explanatory framework to excuse the failure of the Irish Nation State Project as it is sublimated into the EU and the Eurozone. Whilst that my provide temporary psychological comfort, at some stage Irish citizens will have to decide if they want their country back too. I note that the shameless Enda is trolling the UK again today. Brazen, shameless foreign adventurist opportunism to hide his abject domestic failures:

        “Irish government hits the panic button as Brexit poll surge fuels fears over investment and border controls’
        Dublin said to be preparing drive to reassure investors they will still be in EU’
        Taoiseach Enda Kenny campaigning for Remain in Manchester and Liverpool,
        Cameron angered unionists by mooting border controls with Northern Ireland.

        Dublin is said to be readying contingency plans for a campaign stressing that it will not be quitting the EU even if UK voters decide to leave.
        Taoiseach Enda Kenny has criticised the Remain campaign in Northern Ireland and reiterated that there will be no referendum in the Republic.”

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3644523/Irish-government-hits-panic-button-Brexit-poll-surge-fuels-fears-investment-border-controls.html

        • Pat Flannery

          Much of what you say is true Andrew but it is also true that the Irish masterfully ‘played’ the Troika of EU/ECB/IMF. I would hardly call emerging as the fastest growing economy in the EU and developed world as ‘debased servitude’ or a ‘sacrificial offering’.

          Say what you will about the EU Mandarins they know the political skills of the Irish and would rather have them inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in. That is why they are disproportionately influential in Europe while they were, and always will be, mere Paddys in Britain.

          • The Irish were stripped naked in the poker game. Even the IMF were aghast at how inept the Irish government was at defending the interest of Irish people, shackling future generations with unsustainable debt to protect bankers and bondholders.

            Once again, you are seeking short-term psychological comfort whilst avoiding the real issue. The only reason the Irish economy recovered was because the British economy recovered. To suggest that the current Irish government strategically engineered the current boomlet is ludicrous.

            The mandarins of the EU know, like the rest of the world, that the Irish government are shameless. And that they are fools:

            “Enda Kenny loves to tell us he has redeemed the reputation of this country. That is not true.

            We had the reputation of a country brought to its knees by a reckless political class committed to serving greedy bankers and builders. Today, Ireland’s reputation is that of a tax whore.
            The Taoiseach tells us we’re not a tax haven. There are, he says, no brass-plate operations in the IFSC. But we know the truth.

            We know that right across the world, from here to the US Senate, it is understood that we have been pimped out by a political and financial class who offer the use of the country for any dodgy practice if the price is right.
            Hey, Big Boy, fancy a Double Irish?

            Throughout the EU and further afield, we are known for kissing the ass of anyone who might do us favours. In return, we forego our rights. We are known for our cowardice when the likes of Trichet and Geithner come to bully us. Not strategic deference – cowardice.”

            http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/hey-big-boy-you-fancy-a-double-irish-34515108.html

        • Pat Flannery

          Sorry Andrew but quoting Gene Kerrigan as a source about anything is like quoting Donal Trump

        • madman

          Andrew, your comments should be posted on every billboard across the country, sums up the spineless treachery this country has to endure on an ongoing basis.

    • Reality Check

      Beautiful Andrew, just Beautiful.
      And I will play the fiddle when the EU burns.
      :)

  9. Sideshow Bob

    This Brexit this is getting tedious for me, despite the thought provoking writing on group-think that was presented here . I am trying to tune out but to no avail.

    Donald Tusk says it will take about 7 years for Britain to exit should they actually vote no AND manage to carry such a democratic decision through. Two years of negotiations and up to five years to ratify across the 20+ member states.

    So there is also more than ample time to have any leave vote reversed or maneuvered around. Either way I should think that anything will change anytime soon.

    There is an another run at a general election in Spain around the same date as the Brexit vote. Does anybody have an interest in that about that? Why are we so obsessed with Britain? Catalunya has a well developed independence movement that is pushing for separation and is as big population wise as Belgium, Portugal or Greece and richer than the latter two. The Basque Country would be out the door marked “Salida´´ right after them if get a chance, too. It is the best off part of
    Spain. Spain has had a housing bust of a very similar nature to Ireland´s and has many political similarities and parallels in terms of its politics which are still dominated by its civil war, etc. It is home also as apoint of contrast to a different breed of present political reaction to civil war dinosaur politics in Ciudadanos and Podemos.

    There is other news you know!

  10. henrybarth

    The term is GIGO,

  11. Mike Lucey

    I think Enda’s cajoling of the so called ‘Irish in England’ (with a vote there) will backfire for him. I think their attitude will be more ‘feck off for yourself we where forced out of Ireland and will now do as we please’.

    I also think that Obama’s visit and call for a remain is resulting in a ‘Mind your own fecking business’ by many Btits.

    I’m looking forward to seeing the results and the eventual breakup of Washington’s current vassal EU.

    This is worth a read!

    Transcript of PCR Interviewed by Julian Charles about Brexit

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2016/06/13/transcript-of-pcr-interviewed-by-julian-charles-about-brexit/

  12. henrybarth

    As far as I know from reading the newspapers, the Brexit Referendum is NOT binding.

    It took 6 years for Greenland to ‘exit’ the EU. I’d think 10 years or better for the UK. You might also add delaying time for lawsuits and we know how long that can take with appeals.

    • Pat Flannery

      henrybarth: the first principle of the British constitution is The Supremacy of Parliament.

      For example Parliament can abolish the Monarchy any time it chooses. It certainly is not bound by any plebiscite. Plebiscites are a republican concept and an expression of the sovereignty of the people. The only reason the British Parliament retains the Monarchy is as a repository of national sovereignty. Depositing sovereignty in the person of the Monarch keeps it out of the hands of the people.

      The British Parliament must pass a Bill to implement the Brexit plebiscite or any other plebiscite. Parliament does not have to do it. It is Supreme. That is why I am a republican.

      • you are correct about the vote Pat, but what would happen to the current government if the will of the people were denied is an unanswered question.

        http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6

        • Pat Flannery

          Tony: the only thing that IS certain is that if British Parliament implements ”the will of the people” Britain will have become a republic overnight. Won’t that be ironic?

          The British people will have voted themselves into The British Republic! The French Revolution will have crossed the British Chanel without the French ever having to invade.

          Robespierre and Napoleon must be turning in their graves.

          • The parliament passed the law that allowed for a referendum. The parliament agreeing to allow the referendum is still parliamentary. Parliament has given up nothing but said we will ignore party politics on this issue and abide by the will of the people.
            If they renege then they stand a good chance of not being in office next time around.

            When was the last time there was a referendum in these so called republics.

            We actually had referenda in Canada. Federally in the 1990′s and more recently in BC. We are still Parliamentary democracies.
            Referendum, initiative and recall are not the sole prerogative of a republic.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Canada

            It is also the position of Direct Democracy Ireland.

  13. coldblow

    David is right so far as it goes but conventional wisdom (as well as its close cousin, received opinion) is not restricted to our ruling class. They believe it because everyone, or nearly everyone, appears to believe it, and probably the big majority actually do. A good example is AGW. The global warming lobby, like economics, relies very extensively on computer models which are fed with selected facts. Another example that the iceberg of conventional wisdom is much bigger under the water line is David’s reference to British EU membership but no similar reference to official govt noises about the US election. Another part of conventional wisdom is the belief that the drug problem can best be dealt with through legalization. Another unexamined plank in the consensus platform is the damaging, if not downright evil, influence of the Catholic Church in the past. Another is the self-exclusion from polite society if you question the benefits of immigration and multi-culturalism.

  14. Wills

    #groupthink bulletin board;

    Vote Clinton
    Vote Remain
    Never utter the phrase – Radical Islamic Terrorism -
    Never question the seat of real power – sexual power dynamics – in the bedroom
    Reduce human beings to infantilism and ban free speech, expression and self assertion.

    Stuff like that Freud called it Occultism and we are buried in it with no oxygen.

    • coldblow

      Hello Wills

      It’s a long time since I spoke to you.

      Tell me more about the bedroom power dynamics. And Freud – I was listening to something this morning about his attitude towards religion.

      Do you know what became of Tim? I know you both went on that anti-NAMA march back in the day.

  15. At the prodding of Grezgorz I am reading To build a Castle by Vladimir Bukovsky.

    I just read this paragraph which I think answers the question of corruption in the EU and the proof asked for by Pat. There is little overt proof , it is just that the whole system grinds the individual down. The operation is that of faceless bureaucrats administration of innumerable regulations based on complex laws passed by legislators who have little idea of the subjects they vote on having been whipped into shape.
    ————————————————————————
    ” On the other hand, the nature of the state was changing: the early revolutionary zeal and fervor had been wiped out by Stalin in the 1930′s and 1940′s, and the apparatus was growing more sclerotic, overtaken by bureaucratic inertia-fear of responsibility, fear of superiors-and by bureaucratic indifference. It was overgrown with a tangle of laws, regulations, and decrees, and it was not always clear how to interpret them. Better just to pass to your superiors and wait for instructions. They much preferred to punish their subordinates for negligence, or to hand down new regulations and decrees, which all had to be interpreted and have their contradictions reconciled.
    ————————————————————————
    This in my opinion what the problem of the growing state powers is all about, in every state, but especially the current state of the EU.
    I’m with the likes of Andrew M, for devolution of power to democratically sized bites. If that means city states or mini states so be it.

  16. Pat Flannery

    Tony: that falls way short of the kind of proof of corruption I have called for. Proof of EU bureaucratic sclerosis perhaps, but not of Irish PI’s flat out allegation of ”graft and corruption” or cooldude’s wild allegation that ”The level of fraud and corruption in Brussels is massive.”

    In Gaelic Ireland we had a near idealized system of small self-governing tribal areas, developed over many uninterrupted millennia. This long lack of a central power proved to be our undoing once the aggressive neighboring Tudor State decided it was worth expending its men and treasure to acquire Ireland’s vast wealth of oak trees and other undisturbed natural resources.

    In the 16th century Britain had found itself denuded of oak for building ships and stately homes. Most, if not all, of today’s surviving Elizabethan stately homes and other important English public buildings from that period have been positively identified as being built exclusively from Irish oak. We have not forgotten that mistake.

    • Fair enough Pat.

      The trouble with the corruption is that the system itself is corrupted. All the participants may well be doing the job to their best but will be unproductive because of the system in use.
      Endemic corruption is not recognized by its very nature. It has become the new normal. It is not just Europe but the US and any large state. The bigger it gets the worse it is. One does not need a chargeable crime to have corruption. It is the absence of the charges for corruption that lead to more and to it becoming endemic.

      So one gathers together in a large enough organization to be defensible against an aggressive neighbour. How big is big enough?
      Of course one of the stated reasons for an integrated Europe was to eliminate European wars. Ultimately the only way to be big enough is to be all under one government , or so the reasoning goes.
      Now one has the problem of obtaining a benign dictator to keep all these potentially warring factions cooperating with each other.

      I think that we revert to a federation of independent peoples. all locally governed but with the rules of the game soundly thrashed out (pun intended) and enforced by all. If there is a major dispute between two members of the federation, the we go to a jury system of resolution. 12 states are selected by agreement who hear the grievance and adjudicate.

      All will keep in mind the basic rules agreed and realize that precedent is being set that all others will be expected to abide by. A form of English common law (Brehon Law) applied on an international scale.

      Local governance within an international framework. But above all small enough states that democracy will work within. This calls for the abolition of nation states as the European model is gravitating toward but the retention of local law making that affects the people concerned and nobody else. An expanded sort of Switzerland perhaps. A cooperative disunited states, provincial governance of Canada rather than federal( Here Federal laws are always overstepping the boundaries of the constitution. That is usurping Provincial authority). A soviet disunion. What to do about China is problematic as currently any territory ever held by the Chinese is deemed to be their right to recover even millennia later.

      http://www.transparency.org/cpi2015?gclid=Cj0KEQjwnIm7BRDSs42KxLS8-6YBEiQAfDWP6DPlRFOJtxoVYz-TjQpkt0kT8xYnwXAQ9nXyB1WRCXcaAgVu8P8HAQ

      “The scale of the issue is huge. Sixty-eight per cent of countries worldwide have a serious corruption problem. Half of the G20 are among them.”

      That G20 includes half of Europe.

      The cleanest interestingly appear to be those of Scandinavia and their descendants

      • Pat Flannery

        Actually Tony I believe there is more corruption on the Mayo County Council than there is in Brussels. I see it every day. Ireland is still ruled by petty tyrants in local fiefdoms. Local people are far more likely to hide and tolerate corruption than are central governments. A local whistleblower is dead meat.

        • Truthist

          Methinks that the operators of the Brehon Laws would be inclined to corruption just like the “petty tyrants in local fiefdoms”.

          Even so, the E.U. is as Tony Brogan states ;
          Very corrupt AND on a bigger scale than super corrupt Irish State [ Yes, Pat, u are correct about Irish State being rottenly corrupt ].

          Of course, Corruption is always a possibility in life.

          Some situations & systems & cultures & mileau :

          Re ; Attitude
          tolerate it.
          facilitate it
          encourage it.
          demand it.

          Re ; General Procedures
          tolerate it.
          try to prevent it.
          try to mitigate it.
          block it.
          correct it.

          Re ; Recognition
          ignore it when it occurs
          ignore it having occurred
          hide it when it occurs
          hide it after it occured.
          deny it having occurred.
          admit to it having occurred.

          Re ; Justice / Injustice
          punish the perpetrator.
          protect the perpetrator.
          punish the whistle-blower.

          • Grzegorz Kolodziej

            Dear Truthist,

            I somewhat disagree on Brehon law practicians being inclined to the corruption insamuch of course they might have been equally inclined as people but how much corruption there is is a resultant of people + type of civilisation (the Latin one, as defined by Koneczny, is least prone to corruption, the Byzantine the most – and the EU is Byzantine).

            Thanks for the information about the soft power, I thought that the examples of promoting Ireland as a kind of fairy-taly, misty, Marcel Proust-like childhood memories triggering (I know you have not said the latter – this is just me) place by mentioning it en passant in the interviews, films and visual arts was very thought provoking.

            It actually prompted me to think that perhaps the reason that Ireland has a less controversial and better image in the world than, say, Israel (and both countries had violent past) is because the pro-Israeli Hollywood propaganda is way too obtrusive and overbearing, compared to the Irish soft power.

            The pro-Israeli propaganda is, and I stress, not dependent on the ethnicity, rather on the specific type of Jews who dominate Hollywood (lefty-never worked in my life-gimme more-I hate Catholics-Hitler bad,Uncle Joe good type of people).

            For example, the Cohen brothers “Hail Caesar” movie has one of the most amusing scenes in the history of cinema, where the representatives of the main religions gather at the table to discuss what censorship to introduce, and Cohen brothers hammer the Jews as much as Catholics and Muslims.

            As to the Bible and that at the Beginning there was a Word, I actually think that this is one of the least accurate translations of St Johns (apart from the fact that sometimes there is no ONE correct translation) – the term usually used in Greek koine for “word” was “lexis”.

            In that David Ross’s introduction to Aristotle’s metaphycics might be of an interest to you – he goes through all the meanings of that word in Greek.

            Btw, does this ceremony of opening the tunnel in Switzerland (with Ms Merkel present) does not look satanic to you?

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3620446/A-winged-baby-semi-naked-dancers-man-bird-s-nest-head-Switzerland-decided-mark-opening-world-s-longest-rail-tunnel.html

            “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
            Ephesians 6:12

            P.S. I cannot always answer the posts.

          • Truthist

            Grzegorz,

            1.
            Brehon Laws

            I uttered my comment with :

            1.1
            consciousness of most Irish administrators in my experience being corrupt.

            1.2
            recollection of not being particularly impressed with them upon a brief viewing.

            Perhaps, a Frenchman I met is correct that informal “Texas-style” justice is the fairest ;
            Mess with the home of a Texan ;
            ==> u on the receiving end of a shot-gun.
            He says that in his time there he felt very safe.
            And, he says that crime in rural Texas is very low because it is assumed that every householder has guns & is prepared to use them in self-defence.
            However, were Ireland to copy Texas I expect that there would be a very ill-tempered & undisciplined & lengthy induction phase.
            And, with many tragic innocent victims.
            Finally, there would arrive a period of understanding & peace.
            The whole process would have been a self-organising one.

            2.
            Byzantine civilisation

            According to my sources, the Byzantine civilisation was the best.
            So good it was that “the dreadful few’ despise it, & have carefully arranged it that :

            2.1
            we are kept in the dark about its greatness & the relative tranquility that reigned within it

            2.2
            the word “Byzantine” is used as a pejorative

            The dreadful few had been denied participation in the education, medicine, administration, politics [ I think ], & financial, professions.
            Other than those sectors, they could do anything lawful
            incl.
            business.

            The Byzantine Empire, or Civilisation may be more apt given that it the Byzantine rule was relatively benign, I think is the longest lasting of all empires ;
            1,000 years I seem to recall.
            at least in the west & east & middle east.
            Perhaps, some empire in the far east was of similar or longer duration.
            Byzantine Empire / Civilisation was the most benign because it was the most Christian is what the scholars state.

            3.
            “Softly Softly ;
            Catch the Monkey.”

            But, in some situations, “brute force & ignorance” is required.
            Perhaps always.

            I wrote what I sent u in MS Word & had it formatted with indents.
            But, when I pasted it into this blog it went unformatted.
            Also, the many typos helped to make it cumbersome to read.

            I will return to u in near future with further thoughts on the subsequent points u listed for ur project.
            And, I will edit the initial submission.
            Some of what I sent was not in context with the headings ;
            I had those passages intended for latter points.
            And, there are glaring omissions that are the fault of forgetfullness
            e.g.’s
            Flann O’Brien / Myles na gCaipalin sic
            Val Dunican sic ; Pop Music & BBC
            Terry Wogan ; BBC
            Dusty Springfield ; Pop Music & TV
            Eamonn Andrews ; BBC
            Des Lynam ; BBC Sport

            4.
            Yes, when are these ahem … ahem … ahem Liberals ahem … ahem going to portray what has happened with the Palestinians, Lebanon, USS Liberty [ False Flag ], Lavron Affair [ False Flag ], Syria, inter alia ?

            Here is a much more subtle & humorous & intriguing effort [ Especially following Gilad Atzmon's prompt in his very brief comment ] than the tiresome approach from Hollywood.
            In fact, this little sketch is marvelously funny ;

            http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2015/11/27/o686codrvc7bqgz5w32gycjen9c3qi

            5.
            I cannot get the link to open up for me.
            But, looking at Merkel annoys me no end.
            German spionen are everywhere of course.
            And, 1 of them revealed to me in the recent past that they believe fully that Merkel is a plant ; Trained by KGB of U.S.S.R. for the Elite / Dreadful Few.
            Indeed, that she not German.
            That she batting for the other side of that 10 [ or was it 13 year war ] ?
            That her PhD is bogus.
            That she is deliberately destroying Germany.

            8.
            Maybe, the best interpreter of the Gospels should be Mel Gibson’s father ;
            Apparently the world’s leading authority on Aramaic language ;
            Now old Mr. Son of Gib is 98 years old.

            7.
            I glad that u say u cannot always answer posts ;
            We all should have the same realisation ;
            We cannot be every person’s friend.

            This realisation is good for our physical, & mental, & spiritual, health.

            But, perhaps, we can return later with a post that addresses as much as is practically possible the pertinent stuff.
            Another “but” ;
            But, only if logistically possible for us to do so.

          • Grzegorz Kolodziej

            Truthist,

            1.1 “consciousness of most Irish administrators” – you might be right of course, but then you should take into account that the type of administrators are also the product of the type of political and legal systems that shape them. I believe that this country can be on of the most fair on earth if it stops rewarding bubble-inflating rentier/zero-sum game thinking, and allows free intellectual debate – so not this joke-like pseudo-debate on Brexit that TCD hosted, with all 4 + the moderator speakers anti-Brexit, which only diffent from “discussions” on the Communist Party plenums in that they did not use new-speech and they did not show blatantly false data (though they did not show everything either – I have already said that propaganda does not necessarily have to lie – they can even show true data, but it is how you show it and what you do not show that counts – but you won’t know if you do not invite the other side – do I need to add that they knew me from other public debates, so they did not allow me to speak?).

            Shame on you Trinity College Dublin. You are a fine and respected college in natural sciences, one of the leading in Europe perhaps (I know – myh friend’s daughter studies there) – but your this “debate” (and the one with a lier Mr Tomasz Gross) was a f…g disgrace (as is the UCC, which employs a historic ignorant, Dr Kevin McCarthy).

            I personally do not believe in biologism as I do not believe in any one sided theory – one-sided theories have weak explanatory power (this is in keeping with limitation theorems – of Goedel, Loeweheim-Skolem, etc).
            There are 3 main types of theories that are being harnessed to explain political processes:

            1.1 Ideologism
            1.2 Economism
            1.3 Biologism

            I think out of all them 3, biologism has the weakest explanatory power – though I would not ignore it completely. In other words, whether the administrators would be Irish or not, might be important, but the least important of them 3 explanations. Much more important would be what kind of ideology they would operate within (and legal systems are products of ideologies – Aristotle called that correct and deviant constitutions:

            “constitutions which aim at the common advantage are correct and just without qualification, whereas those which aim only at the advantage of the rulers are deviant and unjust, because they involve despotic rule which is inappropriate for a community of free persons” (Politics, 1279a17–21)

            and

            “If (as is the case with most existing city-states) the population lacks the capacities and resources for complete happiness, however, the lawgiver must be content with fashioning a suitable constitution” (Politics IV.11)

            and secondly, what economic system they would operate in.

            Like I said, biologist view is the least explanatory, but not to be completely ignored – i.e. some cultures (i.e. Gypsies, some – not all – Arab cultures, etc) promote incest or near-incest, which lowers their IQ (i.e. there are populations in the world with an average IQ around 80) – interbreeding was btw the reasons why the Habsburg dynasty degenerated so much so that one of their branches (the Spanish one if I remember correctly) started producing retarded kids.

            (interesting, though one-sided discussion on that here:)

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsh_b70NSFQ

            1.2 “informal “Texas-style” justice is the fairest” – the Texas-style justice is close in some important elements to Latin civilisation, as it is the common law system (paradoxically, the British Isles have now perhaps the closest legal systems to the Latin civilisation).

            2. “According to my sources, the Byzantine civilisation was the best.”

            I disagree on that completely, but I would need a longer post to explain it and I do not have time for that.

            First of all, one cannot discuss different types of civilisations if one does not define them.

            Now, to define it, the starting point would be to read Feliks Koneczny for this is where all the US (and Russian for that matter) political science comes from (warning: because Koneczny was so influential – i.e. on Huntigton – its English translation is not cheap – $500 second-hand).

            Anyway, if you say that the Byzantine civilisation is the best then you say that the EU law system is the best, because the EU law is an emanation of Byzantine cilisation (as is Prussia), and it is only to the mitigating influence of countries like the UK (which as you can gather I am not uncritical of – even being sligthly sarcastic about David’s notion that they are driven by cultural affinity to the Irish in their foreign politics, which was then confirmed in UK’s attacks on Ireland’s corporation tax).

            In short – Byzantine type of civilisation is THE MOST CORRUPTION FOSTERING (it always was – just look at the Byzantine empire).

            It is also a system which prevents citizens from self-organising (in that it is very prone to resulting in totalitarian systems) and from defending themselves from the state.

            President Obama fight against the rights of citizens to carry guns is one of many examples that Byzantinism is accelaratingn in America since at least G.W.Bush (it is worse now).

            Btw, no one in Ireland pointed out that the Orlando-massacre was a great (and another one) example of the huge failure of the NO-GUN ZONES (imagine what would happen with the terrorist if every second gay in the club had a gun on him!) and the NO-GUN OWNING culture (i.e. one the gays actually grabbed a gun and tried to shoot the ISIL fanatic, but he did not know how to use it – that’s why I have been appealing for years to train the EU citizens in using guns – this should be compulsory at schools – and even said that every Irish minister who would prevent the elderly in rural areas to own guns would have blood on their hands if they get murdered).

            But one also has to bear in mind that even though some civilisations are better and some are worse, they all have prons and cons (i.e. Turanianism was very tolerant to different religions).

            At the moment, the most Byzantine country in Europe is France (paradoxically one of the cradles of the Latin civilisation), then the former parts of Prussia and Southern Italy. The most Latin – UK, Ireland (though almost the entire Irish academia is Byzantine, but the Irish courts system works quite well compared), Poland (except for the court system and politicians), Bavaria, Scandinavia to an extent, perhaps parts of Northern Italy).

            3. Irish soft power.

            All examples you give on the Irish diapora are interesting and useful. I am more interested in specific actions aimed at promoting the image of Ireland (or defending, if the image was tarnished) than just successful Irish; nonetheless, a lot of what you quote is veru useful – you really intrigued me when you mentioned the (true or false – it does not matter) the conceot of Ireland as the p l a c e suggested in films and visual arts.

            I do not think that the Irish are as obtrusive in their soft power as are the Jews (even though Brendan Behan once said that other nations have nationality, the Jews, the Irish and the Poles have obsession) and hence Ireland has a better image abroad than Israel (I do not know if you are aware that the Jewish lobby in the US have even come up with the Jew counter – how many Jews were involved in producing a movie – I had to double check it was not invented by the Neo-Nazis:

            http://www.j-dar.ca/ )

            also, if you actually research for the most frequently read book by the Jews and read it, you would find out that that book is at least – if not more – racist as Mein Kampf (but the Hollywood Jews would never ever ever – unlike the Poles or the Irish – produce a movie that would show their racism).

            Again, this is a condemnation of the Jewish lobby in the US – not of the Jews as a nation (for example, some of the best research was done by the Jews – Hayek for example), which lobby is to me basically a soft-terrorism organisation, with statements such as:

            In 1996, the Reuters news agency reported that at a meeting of the WJC congress in Buenos Aires, Singer said

            “more than three million Jews died in Poland and the Polish people are not going to be the heirs of the Polish Jews. We are never going to allow this…. They’re gonna hear from us until Poland freezes over again. If Poland does not satisfy Jewish claims it will be publicly attacked and humiliated.”

            Bear in mind that Mr Singer was at least intellectually honest enough to admit that THREE – not SIX million Jews were killed by the Germans in Poland (I onced entered a long post to prove the statement that more ethnic Poles were killed in WWII in Poland than ethnic Jews (including Polish Jews) – and yet Israel got all the compensations from Germany and Poland none (and often the Jewish victims none too, including in Israel).

            5. “looking at Merkel annoys me no end.
            German spionen are everywhere of course”

            You know who Gen. Czeslaw Kiszczak was of course (in charge of all secret intelligence and police in 80s Poland, murdered 100 people, the architect of the Round Table, friend of the Trotskyite Jew Adam Michnik, whose newsparer is financed by George Soros)?

            Well, they have just published a very comprehensive biography of Gen. Czeslaw Kiszczak, using German and Austrian archives among other things.

            I know it sounds crazy, but it is quite possible that gen. Kiszczak was not even Polish. There are photos of him as a young man from 1944 in Festung Breslau, very well dressed (a well dressed Pole in Breslau’s main square in 1944???!!!). Gen. Kiszczak could not prove that he was a communist and not a Nazi when he applied for communist secret service. Do you know who helped him? The Viennese Communist Party that recommended him.
            And he have STASI more power in Poland than even KGB had.
            And there was strong circumstancial evidence that Priest Popieluszko was murdered by STASI/BND, but the court was stopped from investigating it – even in free Poland.
            And Gen. Kiszczak organised the whole transformation in Poland in 1989.
            And Mr Donald Tusk figures in German archives as the STASI agent “Oskar” – though now we can see that he had realised that he will only be elected for the next terms if other countries will vote for him, because Ms Merkel on her own will not be able/willing to push him through – and he will be put for a Tribunal if he returns to Poland on corruption charges – so he now tries to re-navigate more towards what people in Europe really think.

            8. “the best interpreter of the Gospels should be Mel Gibson’s father ;
            Apparently the world’s leading authority on Aramaic language”

            I love when the Jewish lobby in the US – I am using Israeli and US official sources for this – suggested to Mr Mel Gibson that they will stop with their hate campaign against him and stop calling them anti-semitic if he pays them $1.6 million.

            This is a quote from Congregation Beth Shalom in Corona, California

            “Our proposal to you, Mr. Gibson, is since you have been cited as an Anti-Semitic, and have denied those allegations, what better way to prove to all your fans and the nay Sayers — than to endorse and help raise funds for our cause — SOS, Save Our Synagogue.”

            By the way, the Jewish civilisation is also one of the oldest and not the worst at all. But like I said, all cilisations have their strenghts and weaknesses. Honesty and fairness is not the strenght of the Jewish civilisation (in fact, one of the biggest authorities on law – the Late Judge Scalia and the social-democract Prof. Ralf Dahrendorf – had warned about the gradual – as they called it – judaisation of the US and the EU legal system.

          • Truthist

            Hi Grzegorz,

            I try to do ur comments some of the justice they deserve ;
            e.g.
            Follow-up Reading of the Links & References & Points that u supply & suggest.

            Currently doing this.

            I still aim to resume giving more thoughts for ur Impressions [ Negative & Neutral & Positive ] formed by Foreigners on Ireland & the Irish, the Expat Irish, & the Irish Diaspora ;
            With “Causes”, & “Responses arising from the Impressions by Irish, Expat Irish, Diaspora Irish, Hibernophiles, & Irish Official Representation [ State & Non-State ]”

            Need more time ;

            Q.
            By the way, is it a fact per Intestate [ No Will existing ] situation that the direct Heirs / Beneficiaries cannot receive any of the Estate UNLESS there is “Consensus” as to “the amounts given to each & all” by all the Heirs / Beneficiaries ?
            i.e.
            There must be Consensus ?

            I have tried in vain to get any information on this question when I searched the internet.

            I welcome the constructive replies by any of the contributers.

    • Truthist

      Oak & other trees were felled for Charcoal also.

      Blacksmithing needed lots.
      And, so did other burgeoning aspects of England’s economy.

    • Grzegorz Kolodziej

      Pat,
      you can download the Transparency International report here:

      http://www.transparencyinternational.eu/european-union-integrity-system-study/the-euis-report-latest-news/

      The evidence of the corruption in the EU is in the report.

      What interest me more than the actual corruption (humans are humans) is the Byzantine (I am using the word Byzantine in an academic sense – as defined by Koneczny – not as an invective) law system on which the EU is based that is corruption-genic.

      Relevant to the above, the Transparency International claim that:

      1.
      Despite legal obligations to do so, only 1 institution was found to have effective mechanisms in place to protect internal whistle-blowers.
      2.
      There is no comprehensive verification of the assets declared by Commissioners or MEPs.
      3.
      In late 2013, only 7 companies were barred from tendering for EU contracts due to evidence of corruption.

      And provocatively, I would revert the question and ask: what’s the evidence for the systemic abuse in Madalaine laundries? That someone remembers something after 50 years is not a proof for me, as understood in the (now waning) Latin civilisation legal tradition.

      But the same people (not you) who would tire us with reporting every day for months on some events that might or might not have happened half a century ago (there was a time no news in Ireland could have done without it) are blind to much more ample (compared to Madalaine laundries) evidence that there is corruption in the EU – and had been denying that about FIFA.

  17. survivalist

    On the question of being ‘in’ or ‘out’ of Europe at least one thing should be clear. When we talk about the concept of Ireland (or the UK) being ‘in’ or ‘out’ of Europe we are using metaphorical language to describe, in shorthand, the Irish people’s relationship with European centralized institutions of economic and social control.

    Is European rule justified? It’s a question that hasn’t really been asked.

    The authority exerted by European institutions is not self-justifying. They have to give a reason for it, a justification; we do not have to justify why we ought have self-determination and self-rule.

    We need to have that first point very clear. Power is not self-justifying.

    The tendency towards suspicion and scepticism of domination, authority, and hierarchy within the Irish people is established in the historical record.

    More generally when encountering structures of hierarchy and domination in human life we do, and are right to ask, whether those systems are justified.

    The innate tendency towards self-determination (if it exists) assumes that the burden of proof for anyone or group in a position of power and authority rests with those people to justify that position.

    This burden is almost never met and Europe will not break with that tradition.

    And if Europe can’t justify its authority, power and control, then the authority, ought to be dismantled and replaced by something more free and just.

    In addition to this a second problem with being ‘in’ Europe, is that it is wholly undemocratic and in fact is actively anti-democratic in its operational foundations.

    This is not an accidental by product but a purpose of the institution. Obviously documenting evidence for this is not easy. But it is possible I believe.

    Let’s star by asking who understands Europe’s qualified majority voting system or knows when it was amended? And to what?

    Additionaly the Laeken European Council, held in 2001, produced the Laeken Declaration on the future of Europe and established the European Convention. The Convention was tasked with drafting a Constitution for Europe.

    The Laeken declaration itself which reviews the progress of European integration states the following; “The European Union derives its legitimacy from the democratic values it projects, the aims it pursues and the powers and instruments it possesses. However, the European project also derives its legitimacy from democratic, transparent and efficient institutions.”

    Read that again.

    “…derives its legitimacy from the democratic values IT PROJECTS [not actual just perceived]…and the powers it possesses…” [the mantra of every depot ever]

    Finally the most obviously glaring problem of European rule is its ‘democratic deficit’.

    If anyone is interested in researching that matter in general a great starting place is Peter Mairs book Ruling the Void.

    For a catalogue of evidence on Europe’s democratic deficit check the citations and footnotes in the UK House of Commons research paper; The European Union: a democratic institution? V Miller and J Lunn, 2014

    We can’t leave Europe but we can get it’s tyranny out of Ireland. The mistrust of Europe is a widespread sentiment shared across the continent. There is an instinctual reaction against this technocratic oppression that instinct should be trusted.

  18. Truthist

    All the “Freemasonry” countries are joined at the hip with their social & cultural & legal & economic & political agenda.

    Canada’s Judicial arm of their L.E.J. [ Leglislature-Executive-Judicial ] governance has just decided on the following rather shocking verdict ;
    This is why we need to adopt what Direct Democracy Ireland has as the “reason to be” ;
    “Plebiscite Mechanism”
    The bulk of the citizens of Canada, & Ireland also, even at this stage of whole societies becoming corrupted would be very against what the Judicial arm of Canada’s governance has decided to legalise.

    And, u can bet ur life that the E.U.’s European Courts of Appeal [ e.g. European Court of Justice, & European Court of Human Rights ] will copy Canada.
    After all, they legitimise the murder of the unborn child already.
    And, u & I — the born — are next ;
    Including some day, the Fags ! ; They ought to think about that when they are campaigning for right to kill the unborn child.

    Google.com search terms ;

    canada AND animal AND now legal

    https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=cr&ei=9UJjV5nmLYHzvASw1rWQCA&fg=1#q=canada+AND+animal+AND+now+legal

    e.g.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bestiality-legal-canada-supreme-court-a7073196.html

    Vital now to do Eirexit !

    • New one to me, this legislation. Then again Ottawa is 2500 miles away and is in effect a foreign jurisdiction. This is the Wet coast, The Left Coast or the West Coast . Take your pick.

      Marriage as an institution appears to be designed to protect the family and be the stable bedrock of society. In the last 70 years it has been derided, mocked, changed and altered. It no longer functions as the bedrock of society. Why gays insist on being married I do not fathom.

      So now same sex partners can marry. So the definition of marriage is widened. Again there is deemed marriage when two adults cohabit in the same residence for longer than a year. (No sex please we are British) There is no mention of consummation being required here as in the original definition.

      What happens to room mates sharing an apartment while going to school. They are perhaps together for longer than a year. It could be male and male, female and male, etc. Is it illegal to live with multiple partners if one is deemed married after a year. That would be polygamy or bigamy.

      Is living with a pet for a year deemed to be bestiality etc. That might not be a crime if it is not consummated!! In Canada , at least.

      Just asking. The laws are so convoluted that it is said that we all break the law 2-3 times a day.

      Do not be surprised if bestiality is legalized one day or somebody petitions to be married to their seeing eye dog for the purpose of income splitting or other such reason.

      • Truthist

        Very interesting points u made ;

        But, they differ from the essence of what is legitimised now in Canada,
        vis.
        Sexual activity between Humans & Animals

        Also, legal in Germany from what I read.

  19. Truthist

    Typo ;

    This is why we need to adopt what Direct Democracy Ireland has as THEIR “reason to be” ;
    “Plebiscite Mechanism”

  20. “We would go one further: the Fed should just disband itself because having trapped itself at the pinnacle of what may be the final bubble, one that allowed the US markets and economy to kick the can for nearly another decade, the only way from here is down. And it will be painful for everyone.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016- 06-15/gundlach-fed-fiasco-yellen-sounds-she-doesnt-have- confidence-anymore

    Same is true for the ECB

  21. http://www.gata.org/node/16519

    Manipulating the financial markets is all in a days work. Day after day, every day. No corruption you say. Ha Ha!! I say… it is nothing but corruption. But who am I to question the question the money meisters?

  22. Truthist

    “The Dreadful Few” are always a step ahead of us.

    “Ah, sure, they’d beat Banaher.”
    “U couldn’t be up to them.”
    “They’re a right ticket.”
    “Sure, they’re even worse than the Guards.”

    A strategy delegated to their E.U. Empire Builders is to encourage & facilitate Nation States to fracture into “sovereign” Regions ;
    A “contradiction in terms” or “Oxymoron” of course ;
    Because, a new country has just been formed.
    And, this new country has as its “leaders” / “heroes of the separation” E.U. loyal freemasons [ Yes ; Can be female too ].

    “Divide & Conquer” of course.

    And, they are prepared to do this even to countries that are already in the E.U..

    Were “Munster” or “Cork” or “Cork + Kerry” to try to separate the rest of Ireland, it most likely would be because of that strategy ;
    Even though the populace supporting the separation would think otherwise.

    Mind u, Scotland should be an independent country.

  23. Adelaide

    It is heartening to see all the vested interests refrain from making political scores regarding the senseless murder of a (pro-Remain) MP.

    “All Brexit supporters have blood on their hands today. Wink Wink. Vote Remain.”

    None of that carry-on.

    • Quote at end of article I tend to agree with.

      “Finally, all of this just goes to show that when it comes to “money”, whether digital, paper, or hard, there is simply no replacement to being able to hold it in one’s hand.”

    • Sorry for late reply Peter, very busy. Back in Ireland now for a spell.

      ‘Invested’ might not be the right word but I am interested in it for sure.

      It’s currenty very volatile, wavering between $10 and $20 a unit, but looks good for the future.

      A lot of turmoil going on at the moment because of this badly designed and ill-thought entity known as The Dao, which I knew was a pile of crap from the first moment I saw it – it was born on its last legs.

      I suggested a solution to their current issues, which got some traction but nerds with no business experience don’t listen to those who do have the experience and inevitably they make a balls of it – so it will get worse before it gets better in the short term. Here is my suggestion:

      https://adamabyss.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/my-solution-to-thedao-impasse/

      Ethereum is good for the long run though.

  24. Mike Lucey

    Man to pay €75,000 damages for defamation on Facebook

    “Judge says order should teach people to be careful when posting on social media”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/man-to-pay-75-000-damages-for-defamation-on-facebook-1.2688741

  25. https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/videos/1060748277403766/

    Britain First Statement on the murder of Jo Cox and the media smear sensationalism.

  26. Central banks plan massive intervention in the currency and financial market in the fallout from the Brexit vote. As Mario Dragi said a while back. The ECB will do what ever it takes to retain control.

    Manipulation corrupts and distorts the markets. Thus the economy suffers. We all suffer.

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-intervention-idUKKCN0Z225Y

  27. It is not just the ECB but all central banks world wide.
    The world economy is being run by committee just as the soviets tried causing total failure.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-16/global-central-banks-sound-brexit-alarm-as-leave-jitters-grow

  28. Britain’s departure from the European Union is not the biggest problem facing the financial markets, GoldMoney’s Alasdair Macleod writes today. Rather, he maintains, the biggest problem is the insolvency of Europe’s banks. Macleod’s commentary is headlined “Brexit Is Getting the Blame” and it’s posted at GoldMoney here:

    https://www.goldmoney.com/research/goldmoney-insights/brexit-is-getting

    • If the above did not work try this one

      https://www.goldmoney.com/research/goldmoney-insights/brexit-is-getting-the-blame?gmrefcode=gata

      “Democracy is not only ignored by the EU’s unelected commissioners; it is written out of the EU’s constitution. There should be no doubt about Brussel’s view of democracy and referenda. Jean-Claude Junker, President of the European Commission, is reported to have said, “There can be no democratic choice against the EU treaties”, and Celia Malmstrom, the EU Commissioner for Trade, said “I don’t take my mandate from the European people”.”

      How is that for a little taste of EU corruption , Pat

      • “”It’s all about the banks

        Political instability for the EU is a significant and visible threat, but is not the immediate problem, which is financial. As a result of savings and spending imbalances, none of the core Eurozone states can stand on their own. Substantially, Germany’s private sector savings are loaned to the governments of, and businesses in, France Italy Spain Portugal and Greece. None of these governments are able to repay German savers, nor are they able to roll over increasing debts indefinitely. Furthermore, bad debts are piling up in their private sectors, with Italy now a basket case, where non-performing private sector bank loans officially amount to nearly 20% of GDP.”"

      • ” It looks like the modern equivalent of an old-fashioned run on the banking system, led by the pension and insurance companies, which are becoming increasingly concerned about leaving balances with the banks.

        Even though the ECB’s Mario Draghi has committed to do “whatever it takes,” the Eurozone has become a dangerous place for savings and investment.

        Whatever the outcome of the Brexit referendum next week, it would appear that nothing can stop a systemic crisis developing in Europe. The two issues are unrelated, though Brexit could be blamed as a trigger. Brexit will come and go, but a European banking failure will remain with us, whatever happens on June 23rd.”"

  29. “The Irish political and media class talk of the economic problems of Brexit, of the uncertainty it could unleash. But peel away the dry economics and financial piffling and something else emerges: Ireland’s shame – the fact that we shrugged off our British overlords, only to pimp out our democracy a hundred years on. And now they, the Brits, are the ones on the verge of reclaiming their democratic sovereignty. It’s time we Irish recognised that our own democracy has gone a bit arseways.”

    Brexit: a reminder of Ireland’s shame

    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/brexit-a-reminder-of-irelands-shame/18469#.V2RovPkrK00

  30. “Experts believe that the main threat posed by Britain’s withdrawal from the EU is the collapse of the European Union itself. But not even the most intrepid daredevils are prepared to calculate the global political, economic and financial consequences of the European Union’s collapse. For several years now, the European Union has been at death’s door and it all started with the 2007-2009 financial crisis. While the US and many other countries managed to drag themselves out of the crisis (for a while at least), it became a chronic disease for the countries of the EU and is now being called a ‘debt crisis’.”

    http://thenewsdoctors.com/brexit-and-the-future-of-the-eu-postponing-global-financial-crisis-valentin-katasonov/

  31. Pat Flannery

    Thanks Tony: I watched it in its entirety together with all of ‘Brexit the Movie’. So I am well informed on the Brexit arguments. In fact I could repeat them verbatim.

    I just hope they follow through with their vote. Britain is like a spouse who wants a divorce so bad that they can no longer think of anything good about their former partner. Once divorce is discussed the marriage is effectively over. That spouse is never trusted again.

    I wish Britain well in its newfound freedom in the single world. It is now free to ‘play the field’ in world economics. It will find that the single life can be cold and cruel sometimes. But, some people should never have gotten married. I think Britain is just an incurable bachelor. I wish it well but I suspect it will become the wayward son continental parents will warn their daughters about.

  32. oe1

    I know there is corruption and inefficiency in the EU and its too pro-business. But its ethos is based around a social democratic system. It seems that Brexit is a driven and is definitely funded by a pro-right agenda. Do you think causalities of Brexit could be the UK benefits system, free health system, and free public services?

    Lets be clear, Brexit suits the wealthy as there is less accountability to pay tax. The EU are pushing or at least proposing to clean up tax avoidance. Also the EU clamped down on bankers bonuses, which was resisted by the UK. So leaving the EU ensures one set of rules that the wealthy can avoid.

    • StephenKenny

      Although it’s undeniably true that the City of London is the global centre for money laundering and large scale financial fraud, I’m not convinced that a desire on the part of those who benefit to maintain this position, is the reason for the ‘brexit’ vote.
      I think that the ‘European dream’ is just that, a dream.

      The idea of Greece, for example, having the same currency as Germany is absurd, unless sovereignty dissolves, leaving these place as equivalent to US states. European countries, unlike US states, speak different languages, and all have very different cultures, and very considerable histories, mainly involved in fighting each other, generally at considerable cost to one or both sides.

      All European countries have been trading with each other, essentially since humans started to trade – many thousands of years. The idea that this will stop, because a central European bureaucracy looses influence in some way or another, is equally ludicrous.

      I think that the reasons for the Brexit are: partly because a ‘day of reckoning’ for the Euro, and therefore the institutions of the EU, is approaching; partly because the EU is clearly a bureaucracy first and foremost, with democracy having little more that a ceremonial role; and partly because the UK’s involvement in Europe at the national sale, historically, has been little more than, ocasionally, to get involved in fighting wars. I don’t think that the UK is really European.

    • The EEC is a product of corporatism. The antithesis of the left. EEC also operates as if it were a politbureau. Left or right is a moot point when it comes to a loss of democracy and the EEU is anti-democracy.

  33. Pat Flannery

    Thank you oe1. Well said. That is a point of view you will NOT hear here or elsewhere very often.

    My greatest fear is that Brexit will free London to match Ireland’s low corporate tax rates. That would be the quickest way of switching the British tax burden from business to the working poor. The only thing that has prevented Britain from doing that up until now is the EU. Maybe that is the real reason why they hate it so much.

    Brexit would repatriate the worst abuses of British colonies like the British Virgin Islands and Bermuda. The real aim of Brexit may be so that the City of London can become the robber’s cave of the modern world with Boris Johnston and Nigel Faragehas as the designated cave keepers.

    • Truthist

      Ireland under the Yoke of “sinister” E.U. Empire
      versus
      Ireland under the Yoke of “sinister” British Empire ?

      “2 Wrongs do not make a Right.”

      Irish State, as indeed every country [ & partial country in the case of Irish State ; The whole island of Ireland being our country ] should aim to be self-sufficient [ including not depending on foreign trade ] for times of national crisis ;
      Country should be able to close itself off when needed.

    • Truthist

      U make good points there Pat about Britain itself.

      But, the E.U. is not the benign project that u are led to believe it to be.

      That spiel about it designed to prevent war in Europe is a deceit ;
      When E.U. not involved in common wars — & it has done so in Europe through N.A.T.O in Yugoslavia inter alia — it “wages war by deception” ;
      No surprise really when u know that the E.U. was really devised by the Rothschilds.

      • Pat Flannery

        Truthist: here is a copy of a post I put on FOT’s piece in the IT today. So I’m not as one dimensional as you might think:
        http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/fintan-o-toole-on-brexit-is-england-ready-for-self-government-1.2689102

        ”Brexit is desertion! Europe is under threat from within. Churchill’s generation did not abandon Europe to Nazism. Churchill would be appalled at Brexit.

        What could be as evil today as Nazism was in 1940? Answer: Bank Debt!

        There is no easy escape from the smothering Bank Debt currently enveloping the world as there was no easy escape from Nazism. If Britain falls back onto its home shores in 2016 as it did from Dunkirk in 1940, it will be eaten up by the international banks already in London.

        The ‘leave’ supporters believe that today’s banking evil is confined to the Euro. It is not. It is already in Britain. Bank Debt is a growing worldwide virus that is eating at the very heart of the US, Britain, Germany and every other developed nation. As a civilization-destroyer it is even more insidious than Nazism because it does not appear overhead as enemy bombers.

        Banks are currently creating debt at such a rate that money has lost all its meaning. ‘Quantitive Easing’ started in the United States and spread like a virus all around the world, including to Britain. Many, especially Germans, thought at first that fiscal discipline called ‘austerity’ was the answer. Like appeasement in the 1930s, it has completely failed. Churchill called for brave action against Hitler instead of appeasement. He was right. We need his kind of will and leadership to defeat the blitzkrieg of Bank Debt that is destroying our civilization even more effectively than Hitler’s bombers.

        The banks should hear what Hitler heard. We will never surrender! Therefore we must tackle Bank Debt head-on as Britain confronted Hitler. Debts that cannot be paid will never be paid. Write them off. If Britain deserts Europe to the bankers in 2016, it will tarnish its proud stand against the Nazis in 1940.”

        • Truthist

          Pat, I do not think that u are 1-dimensional ;
          U have displayed many dimensions.
          Some I am of like mind with.
          And, some that I disagree with.

          Anyway, u maintain ur discourse & attitude in a gentlemanly way.
          That is very admirable.
          So, I perceive that there is hope for I to persuade u to view some matters as I do.
          Sorry that I put it across as simple & arguably selfish like that.
          It being that I am a bit under pressure to get some progress on my personal affairs, & am in KISS [ Keep it Short & Simple ( Not that crass "Keep it Simple Stupid ! bullying expression ) ] mode as protective strategy.

          Returning to ur post ;

          I think that u are correct about much of what u say about Bankster Debt.
          But, I think that u are wrong about “austerity”.

          Austerity ;

          There should be some austerity.
          But, it should be directed at the rich middle class & up ;
          There being many classes in society now.
          And, there should be some austerity for the poorer classes too ;
          On certain fronts :
          e.g
          No free money for to be :
          drunk
          stoned on drugs
          doing mickey mouse AND pernicious “Frankfurt School” courses at “Colleges of Further Education”, & I.T.s & Universities

          And, if some person caught being drunk, or doing drugs, while being on social welfare ;
          ==> they should be made partake in public works scheme where they get paid more also AND are allowed to be on drink & the other types of drug.

          Some austerity for miscreants on social welfare would be beneficial for to wake these people up that it is insulting & dangerous to the category of persons dependent on SW that they abuse the payments, & also to wake them up that there is apocalyptic solution by our masters for them in the horizon.
          All hands on deck are needed now for preparation to deal with that tsunami.

          WW 2
          U are wrong as the origins.
          U are wrong as to the happenings during it.
          e.g.
          German Bombers ;
          e.g.
          Luftwaffe were not used much for bombing
          At least over Britain
          But, yes, much more over Poland, & Russia.
          But, even then, Luftwaffe were more equipped with fighter planes.
          In fact, Luftwaffe were woefully provided with necessary planes to win that war.
          And, that was obvious from the beginning.
          U are wrong about the character of :
          Churchill ; Churchill was an abominable leader.
          Hitler ; Hitler was most likely a Tavistock-programmed agent of British
          Nazi’s were development from Mussolini’s Fascism & Soviet Communism.
          And, this phenomenon continues in different forms ;
          e.g.’s
          Israeli Defence Forces
          U.S.A. Military
          Brit. Military
          N.A.T.O.
          E.U. Task Forces ; incl. Irish State units
          Incidentally, Irish Army Rangers were sent packing from East Timor by their foreign command.
          That is food for thought.
          Homosexual Fetishists ;
          I wonder does Gay Pride event at Tel Aviv indulge in the Nazi themed fetish that is apparently the favorite of Gays ?
          Blueshirts / Yellow-Jackets

          • Truthist

            Typo ;

            ==> they should be made partake in public works scheme where they get paid more also AND are NOT allowed to be on drink & the other types of drug.

  34. Debt expansion is a fact of the structure of the creation of money. All money except coin is issued as a loan. An expansion of the money supply is automatically a fact as all money is created as debt.
    Everybody , without exception talks about debt but none discuss or acknowledges this fact.

    This is why the central banking system was created. The latest to mention debt is Pat. That’s it. Where it comes from and why is ignored.

    Let us have a debate and disclosure about the banking system, fractional reserve banking and the central baking system. Without fixing that problem all else is in vain and a f…………….waste of time.

    • Pat Flannery

      Tony, the debt problem is caused by securitization not by fractional reserve banking.

      Most people understand the concept of fractional reserve banking, even if they don’t know its names. Very few understand securitization.

      The current worldwide asset bubble could not be happening without it. There is at least a nominal brake on fractional reserve banking by the central banks, there is none on securitization. That is why the central banks have no control over the unlimited creation of ‘money’ by securitization. The trouble is, this is not money in the traditional sense.

      The markets and governments use so-called ‘privatization’ to securitize revenue flows from government services to create private debt guaranteed by public funds. The banks are merely brokers in this insidious activity. Both the markets and governments have become addicted to it. Fractional reserve banking is sideshow in this activity.

      The enormous growth of paper ‘wealth’ being put in the hands of the so-called 1% is merely securitized debt guaranteed by governments. This is not money in the traditional sense. It is the insidious product of market securitization.

      By opting out of the EU and the Euro Britain is putting its head in the sand. London is the world capital of this securitization, the very thing it is trying to escape.

      • cooldude

        Pat “securitization” is just another part of the fraud bankers have used for well over a hundred years to suck up all the wealth. I understand that you are shocked at how this scam works but you are going to get a much bigger shock when you figure out how the “derivative market” works and realize that these gambling debts come before depositor’s money in the now inevitable bankruptcies that lie ahead. Deutsche Bank alone has a derivative “book” which is over ten times the size of German total GDP. The figures are mindblowing and the total global derivative exposure is now over Quadrillion or a thousand trillion. Now the bankers will say that they have hedged their positions etc and nothing can go wrong but all it takes is for one of them to go under and it all blows up.

        Basically derivatives are bets which the banks bet against each other on different markets. The biggest one is interest rates but they use them to distort all sorts of markets. When the next banking meltdown occurs, and it won’t be too long, they will enact their now legal bail in legislation and pilfer the depositor’s cash. This is now a certainty as the only reason these guys enact legislation is if they mean to use it.

        This will cause massive civil unrest but they are ready for this and they will probably start yet another war to distract people from what is happening. This is the way the bankers have operated for a long time and at the very base of it is their original fractional reserve scam and their legal claim over depositor’s money. Until banking is restored to being a service industry which is legally mandated to serve the interests of the people we will continue to be their pawns and have our petty little arguements whilst they litterally laugh all the way to the bank.

        Here is their original manifesto for the US but it applies everywhere there is a central bank because they are all private institututions and they are all under the same ownership.

        http://www.bullionbullscanada.com/index.php/commentary/us-commentary/230-qthe-bankers-manifesto-of-1892q#comment-16

        • Pat Flannery

          cooldude: if what you said, that securitization is a fraud ”bankers have used for well over a hundred years” was true, there would be very little hope of containing it. The good news is that while the concept of securitization may have been around for well over a hundred years, it was a dormant disease that did not erupt on the world until the early 1990s.

          You may be thinking of derivatives, which have been traded over-the-counter (off-exchange) for centuries, indeed since ancient times.

          The current debt explosion began with the mass adoption of securitization, which was the financial atom bomb that detonated the financial hydrogen bomb. Just as the real atom bomb detonates the real hydrogen bomb, securitization detonates derivatives.

          Hopefully just as we have been able to contain the real hydrogen bomb threat we will be able to contain derivatives, which are the deadly children of their parent, securitization.

          • StephenKenny

            It’s small point, but derivatives have been around for a lot longer than a hundred years. Commodities futures contracts could be said too have caused the demise of the cowboy in the US, and were used in ancient Persia and Rome.

          • cooldude

            Stephen what you are talking about is commodity derivatives which can be useful for farmers or miners to future sell some of their product at a certain price. What I am talking about is pure gambling by the banks in the full knowledge that they will be bailed out or in if their bets go wrong. Banks have no legitimate business gambling with their depositor’s money and using leverage of 60-1 on this money. This a totally different game and is a form of fraud as is most of the banking practices that have been introduced or corrupted.

            Interest rates are not a commodity yet “interest rate swaps” is the largest derivative book in existence and is over ten times the size of global GDP. This not your ordinary farmer future selling his corn this is a totally different animal.

          • Pat Flannery

            Actually cooldude the banks did not deal directly in derivatives. They merely acted as brokers and made their money by fees.

            AIG, which is not a bank, was by far the biggest player in derivatives business and received the biggest bailout in American history, over $180 billion. Most of that insurance business was written in London.

            Every mortgage over 80% LTV I brokered during those mad bubble days was insured by AIG. The borrower paid the premium each month as part of their mortgage payment. We called it PMI, private mortgage insurance, as distinct from VA or FHA charges.

            When the US Government bailed out AIG it meant that the US Government was underwriting PMI all the time just as it did with the VA and FHA loans. Who knew?

            So in the end it is the world’s governments not the banks that are to blame. And the governments can fix it if they choose. That is the good news. But don’t tell anyone.

          • StephenKenny

            Interest rate swaps have reasonable market uses, as do many derivates contracts.
            The problem isn’t really that of the various instruments, but that the regulators, and legislators, in the various countries have decided to allow almost unlimited use of these things, and the use of them in completely inappropriate ways and levels of leverage.

            In 1999 (in the time of Clinton and Blair) the governments effectively removed all limits on financial speculation. Limits on commodities speculation were removed, after about 70 years of absolute ban.

            Fundamentally it’s not the banks, but the politicians, the central banks, and the regulators, who allow and encourage all this.

            The financial sector has been operating in this world for 30+ years, and the people who’ve risen to the top are those who most successfully out-speculate everyone else, by any means at all. The idea that anyone in the financial sector is even aware that laws or rules really exist, is a little beyond belief, given what we see around us.

            Blaming the banks for the mess is like blaming repeat criminals for breaking shop windows. Of course they should be locked up, but the real problem is that there’s a weird bunch of highly paid public sector staff producing maps of really juicy windows, and handing out the ideal sorts of rocks, as well as making it legal.

            At the same time, just to stretch the metaphor a bit, the newspapers, tv, and radio, are awash with gushing, breathless, pieces on why these people should be paid even more if they can throw really hard.

          • cooldude

            There are five US banks with over $40 trillion exposure to derivatives. This is not fees but actual real bets they have made in very complex but very real derivatives. The average leverage to their deposit ase is over 70-1. If you think that’s bad we have our own total basket case in Europe, Deutsche Bank, which has a $75 Trillion exposure to these bets with roughly a 100-1 leverage on their deposit base. What is interesting is that only this month DB starting advertising for 6 month deposits at 5% when the ECB rates are at zero or lower. These guys are BADLY stuck for cash and it could easily be tied up with their ridiculous and reckless gambling in this casino.

            You can defend these criminals all you want but they are about to cause anoher collapse of the banking system and this time they will take deposits and the governments will take retirement pensions and force them into bonds. There is no white knight politician like JFK coming along to sort this mess out and if there was they would get rid of him. Here are the actual facts and figures in relation to the main banks exposure to this casino of fraud.

            http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-25/5-us-banks-each-have-more-40-trillion-dollars-exposure-derivatives

          • Pat Flannery

            Cooldude: the trouble with all those blogs that quote mind-numbing numbers of US and EU banks’ “exposure” to derivatives is that they do not define that exposure. Everybody then assumes that it was incurred through banking’s fractional reserve activities. It was not.

            Example: if I as a licensed CA real estate broker own a restaurant and make a mess of it my disgruntled creditors cannot go after my real estate license because running a restaurant is not licensed activity by the CA DRE. Derivative trading is similarly not licensed banking activity.

            Losses incurred by banks in derivative trading are no business of governments. They certainly do not justify a bailout no more than if the bank got involved in the restaurant business.

            The banks have “exposure” because as brokers they underwrote the security involved, as stock brokers often do, especial on IPOs. It is not banking.

          • cooldude

            Pat the banks are indeed liable for their gambling debts. They even went as far as to introduce legislation in the US which places derivative debt above depositors claims in he line after bankruptcy.
            I understand you find all of this a bit far fetched but it is the actual situation. As Tony initially said it is all just an extension of their fractional reserve scam which would be regarded as pure fraud in any other industry. Here is the fourth part of a four part series of essays into how this scam actually works.

            https://www.sprottmoney.com/blog/fractional-reserve-banking-is-pure-fraud-part-iv-jeff-nielson.html

          • Pat Flannery

            cooldude: please provide me with a link or a citation to the ”legislation in the US which places derivative debt above depositors claims in line after bankruptcy.”

            Why was that legislation necessary? If any corporation fails, a bank or any other, all its assets are available against creditors’ claims. Remember when you deposit money with a bank you no longer own it, the bank does.

            Of course the banks are liable for their gambling debts, those debts just weren’t incurred under their fractional reserve banking privileges and therefore are not part of the banking system. Perhaps that was why they sought some sort of legislation to make it so. Please provide a citation. Did it get enacted?

          • cooldude

            Thats correct Stephen. Also copper fastened by the Dodd Frank Act 2011. This safeguards taxpayers from any future bail outs but it transfers the liability onto unsecured creditors which includes depositors. Because the derivative holders put up a deposit they are considered secured . I know it is fraud but thats the way it is.

            http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/financial-armageddon-approaches-u-s-banks-have-247-trillion-dollars-of-exposure-to-derivati

        • Pat Flannery

          Stephen, I think I covered that by adding ”indeed since ancient times”.

          But so was the atom and hydrogen! They were just never put to such lethal use before.

          The problem now for the world is how to deal with the current Hiroshima level of explosive securitization debt. And Hiroshima was just the atom bomb. Derivatives are the hydrogen bomb.

          • StephenKenny

            My guess is that there is absolutely no way that they can, and they know it. It’s one explanation for the seemingly increasingly frantic efforts to start a war with Russia.

          • Pat Flannery

            You may be right Stephen. But I hope you are not.

            Always the optimist I believe the governments have the upper hand. AIG had to surrender to the US Government last time. Then it had the cheek to sue the US Government later – for unfair practice! Can you believe that? Plus its execs had the brass balls to pay themselves all kinds of bonuses right after being bailed out!

            But in the end the CEOs know, in their worst nightmares, that the politicians have the ultimate nuke, let them fail next time, while they have nothing but empty paper.

            The reality may be that AIG et al are already way past the capacity of any government or group of governments to bail them out. As for war. Nah.

        • Pat Flannery

          Stephen and cooldude: you both quoted blogs as your sources for laws. That is not the way it works in the US. If a law is enacted it can be cited by code reference from the statute book of the enacting legislature.

          Please, I need that code reference otherwise we are lost in the blogosphere. I have read the two blog sources you quoted and neither of them gave an actual citation e.g. a reference to a specific section of the US Bankruptcy Code as amended in 2005.

          I ran a very respected blog in San Diego for many years and ALWAYS cited the exact statute code or judicial ref. involved, which was why I was so widely read and respected.

          The local MSM came to trust me even more than they trusted each other because I held everybody, including them, accountable for their sources. It upped their game and they came to thank me for it. So you see this is not personal. I just don’t do hyperbole.

          • cooldude

            Jesus Pat you are really keeping me on my toes. Here is the Dodd Frank Act. Have a look at Title 2 section 204 which deals with bankruptcies of financial institutions.

            The point Ellen Brown is making in the previous article is that depositors are unsecured creditors and they will bear the burden of the losses along with shareholders and other unsecured creditors. The derivative counterparties are deemed secured creditors because of the collateral they put up to hedge for the derivative and they come above unsecured creditors in the event of a default.
            Read it here

            http://www.cftc.gov/idc/groups/public/@swaps/documents/file/hr4173_enrolledbill.pdf

          • cooldude

            Also applies in Europe and was signed into law by Michael Noonan in July 2015 under the Eu banking resolution governing bail ins. It’s technical name is SI 289. On page 120 of this huge document it clearly states that derivatives are not deemed suitable instruments to qualify for the bail in and are as such a secured creditor. They must be settled before the bail in is instigated. It is section 4 point e on this page.

            Also of interest in this document, which is now law, is the deposit guarantee scheme. It is very unclear whether this still applies and the individual has to apply to see if they are due any money from the new reconstructed bank. I know some people are taking the view that the guarantee is not actually clearly guaranteed anymore under this legislation. There is so much mumbo jumbo surrounding this in the legislation it’s not clear to me.

            Send me your email Pat and I will send you the legislation and you can see for yourself.

          • Pat Flannery

            cooldude: Ellen Brown said: ‘’Title II is aimed at “ensuring that payout to claimants is at least as much as the claimants would have received under bankruptcy liquidation.” But here’s the catch: under both the Dodd Frank Act and the 2005 Bankruptcy Act, derivative claims have super-priority over all other claims, secured and unsecured, insured and uninsured.’’

            But her link http://www.thedeal.com/thedealeconomy/the-case-against-favored-treatment-of-derivatives.php does not work, a dead link to just another conspiracy theory blog called The Deal.

            I downloaded HR 4173 the Dodd-Frank Act and did a search for derivatives. Nowhere in the Act did it say that ”derivative claims have super-priority over all other claims, secured and unsecured, insured and uninsured.”

            And the Sec. you cite, 204 does not say anything like that either.

          • cooldude

            OK Pat leave Ellen Browne’s opinion out of it. What section 204 of the Dodd Frank Act does say is that if hedging is involved it does not qualify for the bail in.
            In the European resolution it is as clear as day and the word derivative is specifically mentioned as not qualifying for the bail in. The legislation costs 46 euro so if you’re such a great blogger as you make yourself out to be buy it and read page 120 part 4 section e. I somehow doubt you will as you are full of guff.

          • Pat Flannery

            cooldude: well, I gave it my best. I don’t do personal insults. You will be hearing no more ”guff” from me.

      • Your comment is awaiting moderation.
        June 21, 2016 at 11:40 pm
        I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THAT.
        all problems have a root cause. Getting to the root of the problem kills the whole plant.
        It started with in the modern ara with the Bank of England.
        It was incorporated with private subscription to lend the king William, he of the orange colour, money to fund the war in the Netherlands. This money was issued by the subscribers as a loan to the King. The bank was camouflaged as a state cooperation. The money became a public debt and repaid by the taxpayer. The bank received a monopoly on the production of bank noted and the dealing with government bonds.
        http://www.intriguing-history.com/bank-of-england-history/
        “The benefits to the shareholders would be that in return for the capital invested that would finance the government debt, their company would be incorporated by Royal Charter and become the only limited-liability entity allowed to issue Bank Notes and trade in Bonds and re-lend against the government debt. ”
        Thus the state was put into bondage by the bankers creation of the first central bank. All other central banks have used this model and so all governments are beholden to their central banks and the banking system behind them.
        It is in the interests of the bankers and the central banks to have the governments run deficits in their budgets. Each deficit has to be financed and if not by increased taxation by borrowing. Initial borrowing is by issuing bonds to be sold to the public. In the absence of any person public of private buying a government bond then the central bank can do so simply by inventing extra cash and loaning to the government. Thus the central bank holds a bond as an asset as well as another loan in the form of the cash just invented.
        As the government becomes more indebted it becomes a greater risk to be able to redeem the debt and interest rates rise to compensate for the risk. Ditto with all states, corporations and individuals. The rising interest rates cause borrowing to be more expensive and thus harder to afford and so there is less borrowing and less credit issued.
        This works to slow the economy and have the debt paid off and for interest rates to ease and again make credit cheaper and so borrowing increases. In practice there is little change from day to day as an equilibrium is reached.
        Enter the demise of the gold standard and the advent of unlimited credit. At first the central banks were limited in the amount that could be loaned due to market pressure.
        In the modern age central banks now issue funds in greater amounts thus driving down the interest rates and making the cost of borrowing cheaper. Lower interest rates also deprive savers of the interest charge for lending others their savings and so more and more risk is assumed for the lower interest received. We have reached the point of zero returns as the central banks have flooded the world with huge amounts of cash. All as a loan at the negligible interest or no interest or negative interest.
        The result of this is that the bond market is in the biggest bubble ever recorded in the history of the world. This is because bonds are inversely priced according to the interest rate. With interest at 600 year lows , bonds are at 600 year highs. Who in their right mind invests in a bubble at the top of its growth.
        This not only puts the economy at risk but the banking system too. Central banks hold bonds that can never be repaid. There is not enough economic activity in the world to even repay the interest. Thus we have reached a death spiral in debt. A collapse is assured. It is held up only by the central banks issuing more funds at a now exponential rate.

      • Part 2
        Therefore it is easily seen that the central banking system of issuing money as debt is the fundamental cause of the economic troubles. The interest skimmed off the top of the productive economy is used to by the hard assets of the active economy. Thus the bankers own the world sooner or later. In addition the stock markets of the world are elevated higher and higher by two things.
        First government involvement using futures derivatives affect the market upward buying promises to pay higher prices. See the Working Group on Financial Markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Group_on_Financial_Markets
        This along with interest rate manipulation by the central banks is a form of central planning of the economy. Secondly the central Bank itself buys the shares of the major corporations on the stock market thereby becoming the effective owner of these industries.
        http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-25/stunning-finding-bank-japan-now-top-10-holder-90-japanese-stocks
        The central banks can easily do this as they can create unlimited money. In the meantime the ordinary investor id no longer in the market. Thus the stock markets can be said to also be in the highest bubble in history.
        Derivatives are not part of the discussion as they are private arrangements but are now so extensive that they are nothing short of a financial casino. They are private arrangements but because of the position of government that many of the corporations and banks are too big to fail they become a problem of the central bankers. If government stopped meddling in the economy there would be no TBTF corporations or banks and far less of this activity.
        Because when a government decides to support a TBTF entity it has to get the money from the central bank who add it to the national debt.
        The money system we use is the grand enabler of all this debt. Nations, cities, states, towns and municipalities are all technically bankrupt and held from insolvency by the central bankers. The commercial banks are as equally beholden to the central banking system. All are bankrupt if the chips were called for payment.
        Who benefits? The owners of the shares of the banks that set up the system in the first place. They create the debt, the servitude and the breakdown of the societies around the world. They create the strife and the wars. They create the foundations who fund the seats of learning . They propagandize the best and the brightest and put them in power and reward them so they do their bidding.
        all is at the behest of the money lenders. All controlled and operated by the central banking system.
        Even those who resisted the pressures and were prudent and saved are to be asset stripped as an excuse to pay for this debt. Bailins are the order enacted by the G20
        http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-g20-financial-rules-cyprus-style-bail-ins-to-confiscate-bank-deposits-and-pension-funds/5417351
        The central banking system has to be dismantled and we must return to common sense or the world descends to another dark age of servitude and strife. Welcome to the NWO or one world government where the money lender owns it all.

    • Pat Flannery

      Tony: by an extraordinarily coincidence I was chatting with my neighbour here in Mayo last night when he told me about his uncle who went to Easingwold, raised a family and died there. His name and that of his uncle is Owens.

      I remembered you saying: ”My family came from Turlough together with a group of other families and after a harrowing journey, often attacked by locals, walked over the Pennines and settled in Easingwold , Yorkshire.”

      There was a strong Mayo connection with Yorkshire because Mayo provided it with huge numbers of farm labourers over the centuries. Tony, we are part of the same gene pool, spread all over the world, because of lack of opportunity at home, the blame for which is a matter of debate.

      • The exit from Turlough was because of the famine.
        My father told me:….
        My great grandparents were 8 years of age when they walked out of Ireland. Apparently they “owned” a mill (perhaps worked there) and land in the parish.
        The two were first cousins James and Jane Brogan (Nee Printy or Prenty) whose mother was a Brogan. The families were large. They had 12 or 13 children and George was my grandfather. Most of that generation emigrated again to The US. George went around the world as a ships stoker, shoveling coal but returned in early manhood in the late 1800′s approximately 1896-7. He was hugely powerfully built, only 5’4″, and boisterous and a drinker.
        He, a catholic, married Minnie Clarke, the daughter of a Methodist minister. They met at a sports festival in the village where George was bragging about the shot put he just heaved without taking off his coat. “Beat that” he roared. “Who is that”, asked Minnie Clarke out for a stroll with her fiance. “Oh, just some Irish Man,” rejoined her Beau.

        5 minutes later “just some Irishman presented himself. Good afternoon, Miss Clarke, may I take you for tea”.After a 5-10 second hesitation She said, “I think you may”.

        They were married two weeks later. George had to swear to be a teetotal. “Done”, he said and never touched a drop again.

        There is a lot more to tell as recounted by my father but not time or space here!!{:-)

        • Pat Flannery

          Tony: what a great story. You take after George. Your great grandparents took the same route from the same place in Ireland at the same time at the same age as Michael Davitt and his parents.

          While Michael was in jail in England for IRB arms smuggling his family emigrated to the US. Without his fierce will and determination it is doubtful that “The Land for the People” movement would have succeeded in changing Ireland forever, as it did.

          You come from good Mayo stock.

      • Never mentioned any Owens, Pat. Lennihan, Macmohon, Robinson, Delaney, I recall. I think they were sort of related some how. But I was born and raised in the south and have been to Easingwold 3 times looking for relatives. Hardly any left and the Yorkshire side to this day will not talk about the Irish side of the family!!

  35. sravrannies

    David, an idea for an article/articles although I think you have touched on before but, is becoming increasingly significant because of negative interest rates. Pension Funds will not be able to pay-out as traditional values have been based on 7%+ growth rates. This is something that many ordinary people are not aware of and will have a huge impact on their future pension receipts. Unless of course you are a public sector worker where your generous pension is paid out of current receipts – that has got to stop!!.

    Only recently, one of the largest US Pension Funds, Central States, ran into trouble. It provides pensions to the Teamsters and to survive will likely implement benefit cuts supported by taxpayer bail-outs.

    Look forward to it.

    Peter

  36. http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/disband-the-fed-the-most-accurate-statement-yellen-could-make/

    “Conclusion: The most accurate statement Yellen could make is that she doesn’t know what’s going on with the economy and will never be able to know. Then she should suggest disbanding the Fed before it does further damage. This would be the most accurate statement she could make.”

    amen

    Disband central banking and the fraudulent money system.

  37. “Monopoly central banking, price controls, minimum wages, social security, progressive taxation – all these were supposed to help people and provide wealth for those who did not have it.

    But you can’t create lasting prosperity by redistributing wealth by force.”

    “There is an entire rhetoric that has sprung up around political dialogue. The fundamental force is never acknowledged. The price-fixing is never grappled with.

    But this is the fundamental flaw of modern democracy. It has turned into an argument over ways to justifying stealing.”

    “Conclusion: At root, like all political “policies,” Clinton’s proposals will promise increased wealth but won’t deliver. They will end up making people poorer and more miserable. Her foreign policies are even worse, emphasizing force and continued US warring. The combination of elevated, domestic theft and increased, organized violence abroad is her “platform.” People won’t understand until it is too late.”

    http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/hillarys-economic-proposals-will-end-in-despair/

    All political interference and government economic “policy” result in overall poverty. Then the worse things get the greater the speed of new regulation and law.

    The only thing that will help, Brexit, Grexit or Eirexit is to allow individual enterprise flourish and to allow people to be responsible for their own actions.

    It is recognised by more and more people that the state is an encumbrance to self expression and achievement and the larger the state the greater the restrictions on entrepreneurship and achievement.

    That is the reason for the rise of populist separation movements across the globe. We need to devolve to smaller pint size political and economic units where democracy can flourish.

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