March 31, 2016

Battle for the positions of privilege lay at the heart of the Rising

Posted in Irish Independent · 116 comments ·
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Ross O’Carroll-Kelly beautifully captures the essence of a certain type of south Dubliner. His type can be seen at the annual ritual that is the schools rugby match between the likes of Blackrock and Clongowes, bellowing from the side lines in Donnybrook, all sheepskin, hip flask and privilege. I know this type well because not only did I go to Blackrock but I even played in that very fixture many moons ago and found these sideline bores to be about the most obnoxious ‘know-alls’ inflicted on a poor schoolboy – who is terrified playing in front of thousands of his peers let alone their insufferable uncles. But in defence of the South Dubliners, we are a broad and eclectic spectrum of types; Ross is only one extreme version.

I was thinking about Leinster schools rugby as I wandered amongst the throng down to the GPO on Monday afternoon. Granted, this was not the most nationalist emotion to be running through a true patriot’s veins as I approached the tabernacle of republicanism – but bear with me.

Over the weekend, I have been doing my own little bit of research about 1916. I’ve always been struck by the enduring professional aristocracy that the revolution spawned. Listening to the radio the other day, which was wall to wall relatives of the Rising, it was significant just how many are still in control of the commanding heights of this economy and society. So many of the grandchildren of the revolution have gone on to dominate politics, the public service, academia, the law and a variety of bourgeois professions; it’s hard not to conclude that one aristocracy was replaced by another form of nobility.

Now, I realise that there are loads of people whose fathers and mothers, grandfathers and grandmothers fought bravely and who ended up in poverty, but let’s just focus on those who used the new State to leverage themselves and their families into positions of power and privilege. There’s no point in naming names, everyone knows who we are talking about – grandson of this or great granddaughter of such and such a patriot. With that in mind, I decided to examine what the rebels did for a living by looking at their occupations, which they listed when they were captured. What class were these rebels? The vast majority were employed, which in a city with very high levels of unemployment, tells its own story. However, what is more interesting is the fact that most were from the class that Marx would describe as the hated petit bourgeois. These were the last people a traditional, early 20th Century revolutionary movement would have expected to draw from.

There were clerks, drapers, drapers’ assistants, confectioners, druggists, furniture salesmen, lots of grocers and insurance clerks and even a pair of silk weavers and a pawnbroker. The list is fascinating and what it reveals is not a proletarian revolution but a Rising of the petite bourgeoisie or the lower middle class. They were Christian Brothers revolutionaries.

The real military machine of the country – the poor Dublin working-class squaddies and the traditional Catholic nationalist officer class – were fighting in Flanders.

Was 1916 a power grab by one class over another?

This thought brings me back to the rugby boys and Ross O’Carroll-Kelly.

If you look at the schools that dominate schools rugby, they are big Catholic establishment schools, founded in the late 1800s: Clongowes, Belvedere, Blackrock, Terenure, Castleknock and St Mary’s.

These schools were set up to create a new Catholic establishment that would take over the reins when the British eventually left Ireland. It is my view that the British were on their way out of Ireland from the mid-1860s.

London was actively trying to disengage and promote the Home Rule movement and London realised for the Home Rule movement to succeed it had to have a robust nationalist establishment, deeply entrenched in Irish society. The Protestant middle-class population outside Ulster was simply too small.

Therefore, as part of a greater plan to leave or to underpin Home Rule, the Catholic mercantile and professional class had to be loyal to Home Rule, rather than full Independence.

For this mercantile class, Home Rule was ideal. Remember we were what could be termed a “beer and biscuits” economy. Irish industrial output was beer and biscuits – both derivative of agriculture. That was Irish value added. The rest was more or less live animals exported on the hoof. The Catholic trading class really needed free trade with Britain and some form of devolution.

The only flies in the ointment were apparently the Ulster Unionists. However, there seemed to be an understanding, naive as it turned out to be, that the Conservatives could handle the Ulstermen and, in time, moderate Conversativism would geld the Ulstermen and coax them into some sort of Home Rule.

This grand design – the gradual British pull-out – was going according to plan pretty well up to the time the Ulster Volunteers said no. Once the Ulster Covenant was signed and it became clear that the Ulstermen would fight, the notion of some sort of partition became a reality. This was what John Redmond feared most.

Then the game became one of who would control a partitioned State: the lower, middle-class Christian Brothers boys or the upper, middle-class rugby boys?

The rugby boys thought the prize was theirs by right and took the “model prisoner” approach to Home Rule. The model prisoner is a very middle-class approach to negotiation and stems from currying favour in order to extract concessions on the basis that you are the most reasonable man in the room.

The Christian Brothers lads were therefore looking at the prospect of not being ruled by the remote British but by a bunch of class-obsessed, Catholic bourgeois snobs – an Irish Jesuits and Holy Ghost educated officer-class. For the Christian Brothers lads that was truly terrifying.

If you buy this narrative, the revolutionary period from 1914 to 1924 in the South can be seen as not so much a battle between the Irish and the British but as a truly vicious struggle between the Irish as to who would run the place when the Brits high-tailed out of here, as London was planning.

But given their enduring appeal the Irish Eatons and Harrows have been singularly unsuccessful in producing a political class. And once the Ulstermen said No, it came down to a war within Irish Catholicism between the lower middle class and the anointed, upper middle-class, rugby players.

Looking at all the Taoisigh from 1922 right though to 1982 we see they were all Christian Brothers boys. Sure, De Valera was always the ambiguous outlier who ended up in Blackrock having won a scholarship for the final two years, but he was a Christian Brother all the way up to then.

In fact, the first product of the original posh Catholic establishment schools that were set up to rule this place was Garret FitzGerald – but he was part of the revolutionary aristocracy whose parents were in the Rising, a dauphin of the new nobility.

Now I’m no historian but it’s interesting to speculate on other narratives that may be lurking underneath that single national myth. When I looked at the occupations of the captured rebels, the class element of the Rising is quite stark.

That’s why, when I heard the Proclamation being read out in the GPO on Monday, it was Ross O’Carroll-Kelly, rather than Sean T O’Kelly, who came to mind.


  1. Tull McAdoo

    Adam taking another lie in…..oh dear.

    • It’s 7am here Jim!

      25 degrees C. Nice breeze going.

    • Tull McAdoo

      On a more serious note, “Gombeenism” goes hand in hand with the “model prisoner”.

      Plus I suppose that swapping out the Queen for the Pope was the only significant structural change to the Irish administration of ” a colonised people”.

      Of course some would argue that were now back to the Queen again ala her Majesty Merkel….

      • Deco

        In 1992, we decided to put the ECB in charge of Ireland and we did not even know it at the time.

        That is the power now.

        And we are once again in an imperial racket. With even less representation than we had in Westminister in 1912.

        • Grzegorz Kolodziej

          “With even less representation than we had in Westminister in 1912.”

          Actually, I have never thought about comparing representations, I am intrigued.

          What I did in the past was to check Dublin’s data for renting an apartment in central Dublin in 1913.

          Only 2s 6d of unskilled worker’s expenses was going for rent and 2s for fuel, light and heating, out of 18s of a weekly salary – little over 25%. When we consider the minimum wage today, it would be more like 100% (after the outbreak of WWI the wages had even increased).

          Some would say – look at the apartments in 1913; some of them were so delapidated they collapsed.

          But I don’t buy it.

          Reason 1: our standards of living and building are supposed to have gone up since 1913 – same with crop yield – we should be spending a fraction of 1913 wages on food, not more.

          Reason 2: historians say lament it from the luxury of their commodious inherited homes and 70,000 euro UCD salaries and cannot fathom what rooms I had been offered when I moved to Dublin in 2006 for 600-800 euro.

          From that pespective the 1913 slums of Dublin’s poorest TG4 repines at look like a opulence.

          I have a friend who works for Google and shares a house with 4, commutting 2 hrs one way.

          If we consider this, David’s

          “the game became one of who would control a partitioned State: the lower, middle-class Christian Brothers boys or the upper, middle-class rugby boys?” makes a lot of sense (again, I never thought about that – very arresting article).

          It reminds me of that famous photo of the Irish lower income class women at Post Office – was it Aungier Street? – angry that their money was just stopped “thanks” to the Rising.

          And then the biggest coward of 1916 (“eye witness reports say that de Valera was manic in his actions and appeared to be going through a nervous breakdown; he learned then that shooting wars were not for him”) shoots Mr Collins and becomes a surprising and undeserved hero…

          So why people are not taught, aware or even curious of these facts?

          Pop music, drug culture, horse races, food that makes us lethargic, FF/FG discussing global warming and broadband as new government priorities with even more out of touch Greens (I’d rather take Mr De Valera!).

          Reposting the link on brainwashing our kids:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0wuwJBdMI

          From Joy Division’s “Decades” (funny enough, “Closer” was one of the few albums officially sold in the early 1980s Poland, along with Pere Ubu – 3 radio channel had progressive rock for a change, and 1 channel had agriculture programmes and military songs from… soldier’s song festival in Kolobrzeg – - commis dark humour or what)
          :

          “Here are the young men, the weight on their shoulders,
          Here are the young men, well where have they been?
          We knocked on the doors of Hell’s darker chamber,
          Pushed to the limit, we dragged ourselves in”

        • Tull McAdoo

          Sure Deco,
          Did we not send them over Kevin Cardiff, Big Phil Hogan, Ming the Merciless from Roscommon etc. etc.

          Sure Deco,
          What could possibly go wrong?

          • You really don’t like that Kevin Cardiff fella at all, do you Jim?

            You’ve never liked him in all the years I know you.

          • Tull McAdoo

            Your right Adam. Instead of Larry, Curley and Mo as the three stooges we had Hurley, Curley and Cardiff.

            The citizens of Ireland put their trust in the latter three
            i.e. Head of the Central Bank, Financial Regulator and Dept. of Finance guru on Banking.

            I am not sure what Religious Orders were responsible for educating those three fuckwits, but judging by the arrogance and aloofness that my boy Cardiff treated the elected representatives at the Public Accounts Committiee, I am leaning towards the Jesuits.

            Cardiff even got a promotion to Europe which really got up my nose. The Art Mac Murrough of Kildare street got promoted when he should have been……Jesus wept….

          • Deco

            concerning “education” I think that there is something seriously missing Belfield and some of the Irish universities.

            Cowen, Seanie Fitz, etc..

        • Tull McAdoo

          Deco,
          Cowens mindset was well and truly formed by the religious boarding school he attended in Roscrea (run by his uncle) and before that by the Franciscans in his native Clara.

          Cowen was only ever going to do the one thing on the night of the guarantee and that was to bail out the insiders and maintain the status quo.

          By Jasus he delivered big time for them on that occasion. All the grooming paid off big time

          Talking about grooming “what ever became of all those Franciscans who were jailed for abuse in Cowens former school”?

        • Tull McAdoo

          Hi Adam,
          when you have solved “gombeenism” in Ireland then you have some hope for the future.

          Ireland is full of little Clara’s with their family dynasties, all claiming to be in the GPO in 1916, Full of county councilors being groomed for the Dail,

          Full of bigots and racists who think the Polish and Africans are responsible for their under achieving lives…..

          Clara is the “valley of the squinting window”, “the good room”,……..

          But “is it a crime” ? Take it away Sade and Goodnight Ireland. Sleep Well.

      • Ireland: From Angela’s Ashes to Angela’s strap-on. Putin knows how to wind Queen Angela up. LOL! “”no matter what you do on the wedding night, the result should be the same”…. I wonder if Ireland Inc realised the No Lube outcome when they signed up to Blair’s breathless enthusiasm about the Euro? Everybody knows what happens at the end of a German porno. Putin is also letting Merkel know that they dealt with German expansionism in the past and will do so again now it’s Banks Not Tanks. The expression on Frau Merkel’s face….I wonder how Dear Leader Enda would react. Probably LOL! And then his PR people would direct him to his teleprompter “express empathy Enda! suggest caring, compassion and concern! gently float your hands like your reading out the weather on RTE”

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL2q3n8tTmU

      • Ireland before 1916 was ‘troubled’ but there was still everything to play for in balancing the legacy of British Imperialism with the ‘rising’ tide of Celtic/Gaelic resurgence. The disaster was the ‘martrydom operation’ was quickly used by the Catholic church to seize power thus throwing the baby out with the bath water and installing Roman Catholic Canon Law above the Saxon legacies of Habeus Corpus and the Magna Carta. Yes, they remained on the books but once De Valera and Archbishop McQuaid wrote the Constitution/Catholic Manifesto it was pretty much a done deal that Ireland would collapse into The Emergency that triggered the Exodus Of The 50s and that The Troubles would ensue at some stage.

        De Valera wasn’t executed because the USuk realised they could use him to banjax Ireland. The US wanted him to be a thorn in the side of the UK as the US supplanted The Realm/The Crown as the new Imperial Empire World Overlord. The Brits, having agreed to gradual transfer/Home Rule were so enraged by the Blood Sacrifice of 1916 that they let him not only escape execution but swiftly released him from internment knowing he’d ride the Rising tide of populism and be annointed Taoiseach/Warlord and banjax the country such that it would never fulfill it’s potential and rise as a rival island to Britain. It may have been subconscious but that’s what happened in my not so humble opinion/conspiracy theory mode.

        This banjaxing carried on and reached the climax with Euro ‘ascension’ 7 the banal Eurovision re-vote of Lisbon Treaty v2 “Dublin… I can’t hear your vote…could you repeat that?…”
        Ireland was stitched up by the USuk Wall St/City of London matrix to ensure they both had a win/win Hedge whether or not the Euro succeeded or imploded. It will implode at some future stage. But now it’s the Franco-Prussian Bankster Empire that’s demanding it’s £ of flesh. In Euros, please, lads! Whilst the gombeen eejity political and media class in Dublin celebrate 1916 whilst selling Ireland down the Seine and Rhine. Selling Ireland By The Pound would make a good remix of that old Genesis prog-rock epic but it’s out of date now. The new foreign masters deal in Troika-Euros. The USuk incubus-succubus of The City of London/Canary Wharf & D4-IFSC Canary Dwarf look on it all and smile as they keep up their poker faces and place their bets on the next downward leg of the GFC.

        Let them eat GAA!

        Google the word Sporno to understand why the Bread and Circus culture of rugby and GAA is so rabidly popular alongside BDSM porn and inevitable given Pearse’s Warrior Cult of St Enda’s: it all relieves the pressure of national failure and subjugation to the EU-Troika as does the 800 year MOPE Victim Script…drop all that Paddy and join us Saxons in saying FcUKEU to Europa Hegemony..

        The clownish accent-memeplex of RO’CK types is just another version of the 4F’s: Fight.Flight.Freeze.Fawn. 4Fs to the powerlessness of trying to challenge the STFU from those in charge of things nowadays as they install the water meter. Maybe if you cling to The Right School, the Right Suburb and have an accent that Others those further down the food chain you’ll be ok and not have to catch the night boat to Liverpool during the next calamity which is already baked in. Connolly’s grand-daughter was abused for having an English Accent at the SIPTU commemoration. I guess she needs de-elocution lessons from RO’CK. Nobody mocked my Brummie accent as they mocked Padraig Pearse for Being Brummie, they probably sense The Red Mist that hovers above my head. LOL!

        The cognitivive dissonance of Being Irish in 2016 is so vast that the retreat into local codes is going to get more extreme, paradoxically more intense and beserkoid, as the global reach of Corporates into Ireland increases and the Troika-Vulture Fund consequences of FF/FG’s failure to burn the bondholders becomes clear through repossessions, suicide and the like. Dublin is now a Theme Park for the young drones of all the FDI corporation’s to have some R’n'R in. Temple Bar. Rebel Songs. 1916: it’s all just become a Baudrillardian Hyperreal Simulacrum. I wonder what Joyce, Beckett, Wilde, Yeats and all the rest of the Embalmed Icons in the warren of streets by the Liffey would make of it? I assume they’d agree with me and shout “Tear down that Wall, Mr Gorbachev!” Metaphorically.

        There’s now a Wall inside the Irish Psyche. A barrier that tries to turn the ‘heroes’ of 1916 into venerated saints and any dissent receives exactly the same response as that which greeted me in 1985 when I blew the whistle over paedophile priests in the ranks of the Holy Roman IRA….I could go on….but what’s the point? Samuel Beckett was the prophet of modern Ireland, not Yeats, Joyce or Wilde. It’s all a waste of time. Any Rebel Yell is assimilated into the Simulacrum for The Mob Is Fickle!

        “If Art was going to change things it would have happened by now”…

        I tink Kevin Rowlands was right in many ways and maybe the lads in the GPO were too…”the only way to change things is to shoot men who arrange things”…even it it’s all as pointless as Protest Art…”I thought that if you had an acoustic guitar, it meant that you were a Protest Singer”…maybe Morrissey was right, nah! he was always a daft plastic paddy troll as well as the rest of them…

        Dear Kevin…you were so misguided and wrong to take on my mates in the Backyard Bar and justly deserved ending up having a scaffolding pole swung at you for dissing us Peaky Paddy Blinders…you think you ‘won’ with ‘Come On Eileen’ and the banality of mass acclaim? But we haven’t even begun…’soul rebels’….B10….but whatever…over to you Kevin as some of what you did was genuwinely innovative and 4Real, one more time for the vintage Birmingham Irish take on the fake Rebel Yell Aftermath of 1916 and all that followed, a song that could be usefully remixed and reworded and sent to the Acting Taoiseach/Dear Leader as “Dear Enda”. Sadly, I don’t have the time to do that but i do have the time to repeat that the truth about 1916 can only be found in the Aftermath, in the lives of those who fled, were exiled and who look back on it all from a distance, in places like Birmingham, far removed from the pomp and ceremony of parades. Oh, wait! I was there at those parades….hmmmmn…*scratches head*…I’ll get back to this when I think of an excuse/rationalisation. ….got it! I’m just another Plastic Paddy! There we go..phew!

        I’m incredibly optimistic that the people of Ireland will respond to the enormous challenges facing them, that they will find a way to honour a troubled past after the flags and parades of 1916 are archived, by stepping up to the Peace Process Memeplex and ensuring not only that the Catholic Church’s residual Theocracy is reigned in [ #repealthe8th ] but that the USuk incubus-succubus on the banks of the Liffey is made to realise that Ireland is still a Sovereign Nation State and not just a place to park banks, planes and tanks on the banks of the Shannon and the Liffey. And that it can all be done without any more Blood Sacrifice.

        #SongsNotBombs

        #ThePenIsMightierThanTheSword

        #ThePenisMightierThanTheSwordMakeLoveNotWar

        and so on and so forth…

        yours, in jubilo
        ‘mad paddy from Brum’
        who, psychologically, has ‘the bends’ from trying to surface from 2 insane weeks in Dublin….LOL! but it’s all good…great gas/craic and all that….

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1e9YRXMrTQ

        “Dear Robin,
        Hope you dont mind me writing, its just that theres more than one question I need to ask you.
        If youre so anti-fashion why not wear flares, instead of dressing down all the same.
        Its just that looking like that I can express my dissatisfaction.

        Dear Robin, let me explain, though youd never see in a million years.
        Keep quoting cabaret, Berlin, Burroughs, J.G.Ballard, Duchampe, Beauvoir, Kerouac, Kirkegaard, Michael Rennie.
        I dont believe you really like Frank Sinatra.

        Dear Robin, youre always so happy, how the hell do you get your inspiration?
        Youre like a dumb patriot.
        If youre supposed to be so angry, why dont you fight and let me benefit from your right?
        Dont you know the only way to change things is to shoot men who arrange things.

        Dear Robin, I would explain, but youd never see in a million years.
        Well youve made your rules but we dont know that game, perhaps Id listen to your records but your logics far too lame and Id only waste three valuable minutes of my life with your insincerity.

        Dexys Midnight Runners – There, There, My Dear

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1e9YRXMrTQ

  2. Deco

    Interesting article. As things stand the Ross characters still managed to implement incompetence via their networks.

    The CBS boys simply wanted more opportunity, than the new-coming Tory element were willing to allow them. They were influenced by what was happening in the US, and the concept of “opportunity”. And they wanted that in Ireland too. It was not about money, as much as about a concept of progress that was rooted in the idea of fulfilling one’s ambitions and goals.

    My two grandfathers both lived through the period, as youngsters, and never went to secondary school, and had no time for primary either. But they were not commanders, merely part of the pervasive rural agitation tendency that existed amongst those of little resources, and who merely wanted the system to be improved. They did not hate the landlords. They did not trust the new element being constructed to run Ireland as a dominion.

    In essence, I reckon it was even deeper than schooling. Whilst one element became reconciled to the political union with Britain, the other decided that there had to be something better. They did not want a replication of the British class system as it existed in the 1890s.

    Of course those that had just adopted the same class system and it’s layered approach to life (everybody should know their place) this was proving a personal liberation. Even if it was the perspective of a narror minority.

    I doubt the British expected to be leaving as early as 1860. I reckon after the Land League and Parnell, the British had reached the point where they decided that they needed a local element involved in the administration of Ireland, to achieve “buy-in” for the UK as it then existed. In other words, it was a powersharing arrangement. Britain figured that it needed more co-operation.

    Where the British produced a blunder, was testing the arrangement in a full scale military project that went on beyond six months, that demanded input from everybody. The “buy-in” only existed in some elements of Irish society. Getting poor Dubliners to join the British Army is not “buy-in”. Rural enlistment rates were much lower, because the sentiment was that it was better to be free and hungry, than to get paid and shot at.

    The British ruling class, misjudged Ireland (once again). If they took the message to heart, they might have reformed Britian, and never endured the lost decades of squabbling.

    Indeed Home Rule was coming down the track. But it would have resulted in even more intact copy of the layered British class system, than that which was developing in the 1890s onwards. As things stood, that value system survived. It survived because of the outcome of the Irish Civil War. The same model eventually caused Britain serious underperformance in the decades following 1945.

    Simply put, the Irish told the British that there was somebody missing in the system that the British devised to ensure a more gradual assimilation into the then existing British way of doing things. The British ruling establishment, refused to take notice, and as a result endured an uncontrollable, decline in industrial competitiveness from 1945 until the middle of the 1990s. Since the mid-1990s this has been arrested, though it has yet to be reversed.

    Of course the biggest frustration concerning Ross O’Carroll Kelly, is that he continues to get away with what he does. We have all come across people like that. And not just from SECD. But from other parts of Ireland once. The superficiality driven aspriation model still exists.

    People who regard it as a virtue to mispronounce DART still have enormous influence on cultural mores. Far too much influence. We did not become as meritocratic as the participants in the War of Independence had wished. The civil war resulted in losses on both sides – with the loss of leaders like Collins, Griffith, being a big problem.

    Ireland, we have an aspiration model that needs to be reviewed. We have several competing models currently, and to be honest some of them are completely idiotic. But they all aspire towards the same level of being removed from reality as Ross O’Carrol Kelly. In other words they are all aspiring towards easy street.

    And that is the really problem with Ross. Everything comes from moral cowardice, and seeking the easy option. That is the essence of the psyche that was going to dominate Ireland until the Rising. An Ireland of obedience, go-with-the-flow, meander along.

    The real significance of self-governance is that infers a resposibility for one’s affairs. That is a rather British concept, nowadays. But in the early 1900s it was an American concept. The British were living in a world of duty, and order at that period of time. But the rebells were moving in the directin of the concept.

    And that also infers that the state system must be better at handling it’s responsibilities. In the Great War, the British state system failed repeatedly in a series of blunders, concerning it’s responsibilities to it’s own people. Duty and the cause were used routinely to excuse ineptitude and underperformance.

    Small wonder, that the Irish rejected conscription. They had already concluded that they could do better than murder each other for inches of Flanders mud.

    In other words, it was not merely independence for the sake of independence. But for the sake of doing things better.

    Well, unfortunatley, we have drifted. Ireland needs more of Shane Ross, and less of Ross O’Carroll Kelly.

    In other words, it is the substance element that matters, not the need for superficiality and standing.

    • CitizenWhy

      Good points. My grandparents, prosperous, also did not want a replication of the British class system even though they would have benefited from it. Many in the IRA favored a Scandinavian social democracy. They did not get it. But we still believe, rightly or wrongly, that Collins, had he lived, would have worked to move in that direction.

      A non-Dublin perspective would have taken the GAA into account.

      • Deco

        That is what was in process – a replification of the then existing obsession with status, class, etc… Which is probably why DMcW rolled out Ross O’CK. It was the core belief of the British establishment in 1910. The entire system was a complex of layers, core beliefs, clubs, and standing.

        To be honest, what shocks me is how much of it leached into societal mores before the Rising. It is still very strong, in rather not-so-obvious ways.

  3. Joxer89

    I think this phenomenon that the most radical political activists came from the lower middle class is actually quite general and commonplace. Seriously poor people are too busy surviving and the well off, apart from a few idealists, are too comfortable. Radicals are people with something to lose and something to fight for: the people whose accurate feeling about their station in life is that it is quite precarious.

  4. Deco

    In Ireland, the Bernays doctrine latched on to Ross O’Carroll Kelly in the mid-1970s, and produced an awful lot of ugliness. An ugliness that peaked in the property mania.

    Ross is not just a South Dublin phenomenon. Not just rugby either. There are clowns like that in other locations. I have seem variations on a theme from Limerick, Cork and parts of South Leinster.

    Rugby has been getting positive PR for years. Meanwhile, in the shadows, there is an emerging injury crisis.

    Let’s be frank here – rugby is an idiotic “sport”. It is correctly termed a “collision sport”. And because of concernes about safety, there is an upcoming PR campaign “for the sake of the game”.

    In other words to keep the young idiots enrolling in rugger.

    This is a film about a sport that is safer than rugby.

    http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/concussion/

    Can we have an honest discussion about this “sacred cow” activity that is defined as a “sport” ? [ maybe a convesation about Gaelic Football might also be required, considering the injuries that it produces ].

    There is also the issue of back injuries, which causes serious problems to the players.

    Rugby – the life-wrecking “sport”.

    • Pile of shite ‘sport’ indeed.

    • contact23

      i agree ! they should take up safer social activity, perhaps going out for a few drinks maybe! the injury quotient for this is i would guess 100 times higher than participation in team field sport, but much less studied as a group pursuit.

    • Irish PI

      WELL SAID SIR! However to opine or dare even think such hereitc thoughts in “Pig Town” AKA Limerick city,would assuredly get you strung up by rugby boot laces by your dangly bits off the posts in Thomond park while being used as a tackle dummy by Munster playes while being cheereed on by a packed stadium of Munster fans resembling a Roman mob on hearing of a new supply of Christians to be fed to lions who have been on a diet for a month.Indeed we do have the caricture of Ross here,but more what we of the rugby haters underground Limerick division call the “Dermot& Audrie” brigade couple.They never supported Munster until it became fashionable to do so either because young Dermo is now on the team in Cresent,St Munchins or the Clongows outside the Pale, Glenstal.In fact Dermo snr never played the game in his life when he was younger,but is now an expert on all things rugby and only got into it at work to be part of the crowd.So long as Dermo jnr makes seniors ,it is irrevelant what sort of leaving cert results he has,as the rugby mad headmaster will put in and pull strings to see him get a job or be marked for a civil service position.if not no matter Demo snr will see him working with one of his pals, another rugby bore, in some job selling BMWs or Mercs to his mates,or the like. Audrie is making sure daughter Jocastsa gets to meet and date lads odd the senior team,and Jocasta already ha her eyes on the captain.She is to be found on every match pitch ,aka a field doing a passable impession of Flanders after a week of heavy shelling in her horse riding boots cheering him on with “play the ball there Simon”.She’ll marry him after having a bit of a “riding accident” herself and will go on to breed another generation of the same status obssesed class little Limerickers who will be medicore professionals and ward off any new blood by the most important job interview question around here..”Do you play rugby?”

  5. Never had you down as a ‘true patriot’ David.

  6. Sideshow Bob

    David McWilliams,

    Best piece of writing that I have read by you, ever, in my humble opinion. My range of knowledge is about 10 years worth of articles and a few of your books.

    Don´t go developing a big head though! Please do keep it up as much as is possible!

    Regards,

    Sideshow Bob.

  7. Sideshow Bob

    Could I use this topic to diverge a little to give a shameless plug here on this forum for the brilliant work of my mate Alan Clarke who does the Ross O´Kelly Carroll illustrations.

    Some of his own work ( no Ross drawings included )is to be found on-line here;

    http://www.mralanclarke.com/portfolio.php

    And the home page is here…http://www.mralanclarke.com/

    He has an on-line shop of course, where you can buy beautifully made prints of his work.

    He has facebook page here also…https://www.facebook.com/mralanclarkeartist/?fref=ts

    Enjoy!

  8. David – You are the JB Keane of Dalkey a great story teller .

    Using your analogy the same occurred in Limerick .Initially the ascendancy class faltered and their shops and businesses were taken over by the Jesuits only to follow on with the Christian Brothers .Glenstal Abbey was inhabited by the merchants of Cork , Dublin and some regional towns and had little presence in Limerick city.In fact the Jesuit alumnae held sway on the business properties in the city center and could not agree to adapt with the market changes and the Christian Brother alumnae opened shopping centers around the city . All of this resulted in the doughnut effect with an empty middle city center and the Jesuits are now abandoning giving way to emigrant business. Its a cycle.

    Rugby was a stalwart of the Jesuits and still is and the CB Ennis Road condemned it .Even some of my mates who are descended of Garryowen founders were chastised regularly .Nowadays all that has changed and since then that school has produced POC …the great .

    • Irish PI

      Nicely said John.Couldnt agree more,as a former and very reluctant conscript then dissenter and finally outcast of the ranks of Cresent College Comprehensive rugby world and a former classmate of Peter Cloghessy up to the “Inter” in the 1980s.You describe that microcosm of Limerick life perfectly.Am so glad I got out of my own accord from that hideous game.All my friends that stayed in the team in 1984 seniors and leaving cert class looked like a episode of ER meets a train wreck victims extras.Crutches,wheel chairs,collars,arm slings aplenty.All of them ,now 32 years on have joint,back,neck,etc problems.All for “the glory” of a school house and to make sure you got a good job with one of “doddy”s pals”..

    • Addendum :

      It is fitting to add that Anglo Irish Bank was first incorporated by the Limerick Jesuit Alumnae only and initially traded in Limerick only later to be substrate into the Dublin non Jesuit brethren .

  9. Peter Atkinson

    An interesting point to note is that with rugby the assault and violence takes place on the pitch while in soccer it takes place on the terraces. Another point to ponder in the so called class war.

    • CitizenWhy

      In Britin the upper classes liked to say, “Rugby is a sport for savages played by gentlemen, soccer is a sport for gentlemen played by savages.” of course if you examine the history of the British class system and their Empire you would conclude that the gentlemen running the show were the real savages.

  10. CitizenWhy

    Good one. It’s time to be irreverent or analytic about the Rising, even though you leave out the British ver made and never done promise of Home Rule and the state of rebellion and martial law prevalent in much of Munster way before the Rising.

    That said, nmy Munster raised parents, from farming families, were more or less Social Democratic rebels (despite their prosperity). They were not happy with the way the country went under Cosgrove and then the other party. Those whos atyed stayed out of politics and prospered in farming, business, and the professions. Some even sent their kids to Blackrock. but no politics.

    It was normal for people from the lower middle class – just above the working class 0 to take over revolution historically driven by the working class. Mao is an example. And Lenin smashed the workers’ councils that had taken over and were running the factories.

    • CitizenWhy

      Sorry, I meant to write Cosgrave, the successor to Collins and leader during the civil war.

    • Truthist

      Do not be deceived that the Russia Communist Revolution & the China Communist Revolution also were driven by the working class.

      Re ; Lenin, & Red Revolution in Russia
      Lenin was agent of the Banksters to bring “vulgar” Communism to Russia.
      The “ostensible” reason was to liberate the working class.
      The working class were :
      bogus reason of the real drivers of the revolution.
      useful idiots
      the target to be slaves of the socialist / communist new system of government.
      Lenin was agent of the Banksters to bring “vulgar” Communism to Russia.
      The bulk of the red revolutionaries came from New York, U.S.A.
      And, the U.S.A. government [ supposedly the enemy of Socialism / Communistm actually subsided the U.S.S.R. for most of its existence in Russia.
      Meanwhile, in the west u have by creep a more subtle form of Socialism / Communism.

      Re ; Lenin, & Red Revolution in
      The “ostensible” reason was to liberate the working class.
      The working class were :
      bogus reason of the real drivers of the revolution.
      useful idiots
      the target to be slaves of the socialist / communist new system of government.
      Mao was agent of the Banksters to bring “vulgar” Communism to China.

      China was delivered to Mao Tse-tung with active Soviet military assistance in Northern China, as well as the tacit consent of Britain and the U.S., misled by such moles as Owen Lattimore and Lauchlin Currie in the FDR administration.
      See more at: http://henrymakow.com/2015/12/Why-Has%20Mao-Monstrous-Record-Been-Hidden.html#sthash.3xfNTNZI.dpuf

      And, the Politburo ruling China during Communism has had at least 4 so-called westerners as vital decision makers.

      Meanwhile, in the west u have by creep a more subtle form of Socialism / Communism.

  11. Onda

    Liam Cosgrave Taoiseach 1973 -1977, was educated at Synge Street CBS and Castleknock College.

  12. Adelaide

    On the subject of the South Dublin rugby class, why do they speak with a plum English accent? I find it quite artificial, like a spoof accent, it’s not related to any particular locale as I’ve known people who were raised and born and attended boarding schools in Limerick and Galway who speak with the same accent. Is it simply a fabricated accent of the upper class to distinguish themselves from those with proper geographical accents.

    I speak with a strong inner-city Dublin working class accent and it connects me to my past, it grounds me and I am proud and very fond of it. I wonder how the Rugger crowd feel about how their accent?

    • Mike Lucey

      @ Adelaide

      I see that some people tend to ‘pick up on’ the predominant local accent whereas others retain their native local accent regardless. It has been suggested the people with so called ‘musical ears’ tend to pick up the majority accent more quickly.

      Or could it be the case that these ‘plum English accent’ adopters are basically lacking self confidence?

      • CitizenWhy

        True, especially if you grew up hearing a wide variety of accents. My South Dublin cousins sound more American/Canadian than British plummy to me. Their sibs in the UK do pick up on what is now called the South of England accent, in contrast to their Dublin people. South of England used to be called Atlantic because speaking it meant you could be British, Canadian, or American (USA). I was raised in NYC (by Irish born and raised parents) with a kind of Atlantic accent, and when I live in the Northwest USA (Washington, Oregon) I was always told that I was Canadian. People could not imagine that I was from NYC because my accent did not fit their stereotype (Jewish – older generation? Brooklyn?). At that time, and now too, we in the USA had a fairly common college educated accent spoken by most people who went to college, and many who did not, and the college was not necessarily elite or populated by the rich.

        • CitizenWhy

          Of course we are not as obsessed with accent as in the UK. I was always treated well in the UK, even in a T shirt, in contract with my rich friend with a slight Italian-American accent. Bizarre. In teh USA good manners ounted more than accent, and still does even in my very very hipster neighborhood.

    • Deco

      I think it a variation of the peacock effect.

      A peacock carries a big long, functioanally useless tail. The size and colour of it confer status.

      Ross-O’Carroll-Kelly-speak, seems to have parallels. Functionally it is a hindrance. The point seems to be that one can carry on in life, being this useless, at a core skill like communication, and still get a handy job in oen of the Irish bankrupt banks, or a firm of solicitors.

      The pronounciation is incomprehensible.
      The Grammar is incorrect, and flawed.
      The concept of precision is completely absent.
      The slang is centred on concerns of superficiality, and aloofness

      In my view, it is effectively a self imposed barrier to personal competence. For the sake of correctness, it is a good idea to ask people who use it, to clarify what they are saying.

      The most intelligent sounding accent in Ireland is probably Kerry/West Cork. I am not from either of those places. It has the inverse RO’CK effect. It conveys the impression that the speaker, is far smarter than he/she looks. And this is a Kerry/SW Munster stereotype.

      • Grzegorz Kolodziej

        I thought that the Wicklow accent was the most intelligent sounding accent in Ireland because every sentence is a question ;-)

        When performed by a group of teenage boys, it is also the most irritating for the same reason, especially when trapped on a bus stop with them.

        The most beautiful Irish accent? How can it be other than Donegal? It’s also the easiest to put on, while Kildare, for a change, is so difficult to put on because it is so flat – a Kildare guy who had lived in London for decades told me that Kildare people lose their accents in London the fastest – do not know if that’s true, but I cannot imagine an adult Cork person losing his accent any time soon).

        A girl called MegsMcCafferty twitted (on September 26, 2014):

        “I wish I could hear my Donegal accent so I could get why everyone loves it so much”

        lol

    • Grzegorz Kolodziej

      “why do they speak with a plum English accent? I find it quite artificial, like a spoof accent, it’s not related to any particular locale as I’ve known people”

      - feeling of insecurity perhaps?

      http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/04/16/culchie-girl-develops-d4-accent-in-record-time/

      “I speak with a strong inner-city Dublin working class accent” – I like that; maybe you are smarter and not pining for approval from nouveau riche, unlike, say, ehm, Ms Miriam O’Callaghan.

      I have never tried to put on any accent, except as a joke (I am good at Northern Irish accents). It changes naturally. It now sounds Polish-Irish-English-American-German-Welsh in random order. I don’t know what that connects me to lol (all my past?); however, if not revealed, no one can tell where I am from.

      • Truthist

        Apropos of #Accents [ Plummy, & Irish exponents of ], & #matters Polish, & #the always relevant scheming on crucial Politicians & top Civil Servants & other Politicos by the Secret Services, u should find very interesting the following excellent BBC TV Mini-Series from the 1980′s which had the main star, Tom Bell, as the detective lured by the M15 to investigate ever deeper a “wet” & very promising Tory leading politician with a Peccadillo in this the Thatcher era.
        Oft reminded aspect to “the detective’s” character is his ever consciousness of his Polish family extraction ;
        To which he is developing his ancestral tree with heraldry.
        This was interesting reference during this fraught period in international affairs.
        Irish actor Niall Toibin plays the role of top-most plummy voiced Spy-Master ; Sir Walter Jones.
        Another notable actor in it is Mark Eden who starred as on of the all-time great nastiest TV villains, Alan Bradley, on Coronation Street.
        There was a time when the BBC produced great drama series that dealt with political stuff.
        RTE never did so.
        This would be the era of Elm House Hostel in London, & “procurement” by Dutroux in Belgium.
        Why no curiosity by Irish media about how Irish Politicians & Civil Servants sold off Irish interests for a song to Brussels ?
        Will it take leaking of information from British sources to get the likes of Miriam O’Callaghan to try to smother such revelations for the Irish Institutional State with her exaggerated gestures as is her TV style.

        Here are some links :
        I trust that some of the other contributors will recall this series.

        http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088506/

        http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0068552/

        http://www.britmovie.co.uk/forums/looking-video-dvd-tv/117085-detective-1985-bbc-mini-series.html

  13. Mike Lucey

    I think to play rugby and have any chance of leading a reasonably healthy life after retirement a player would really need to be of NZ M?ori or Tongan decent. Now those guys, even the short ones, are ‘built’ for rugby with necks, torsos and limbs that can take hard collisions. However all heads are in trouble without proper protection.

    Proper head and neck protection should be compulsory for school rugby as is the case with amateur boxing. Let the ‘grown ups’ decide for themselves.

    • Mike , in my experience a helmet is a hindrance to protection in the sports mentioned.
      i boxed as an amateur with 87 fights. Once (is enough) I was in trouble with a suspected concussion. It was self diagnosed as it passed notice of everyone else.
      in recent years I coached and took part in the sparring where the regulations are that helmets must be worn. I found there was no less impact effects wearing or nor wearing and the viewing ability was obstructed with the wearing. I disliked the helmet for those reasons.

      In other sports like ice hockey there may be protection from ice contact in a fall but other sports I have noticed the helmet being used as an offensive weapon against others.
      injury in sports is more common than in amateur boxing. amateur boxing is the only sport where I know that each competitor must have a pre-season medical and where there is a medical exam before every contest engaged in.

      So in my 6 year career I had 6 annual medical examinations and 87 pre-contest examinations. Also a doctor is present at the ring side at every tournament. Helmets are counter productive as the lack of peripheral vision causes one to be hit more often. One does not avoid what one does not see.

      There is an old adage that “it is the one you did not see that gets you”. All other contacts are significantly mitigated by reflex actions.

  14. Sport is a male bonding-social glue thing. The game itself isn’t really the issue. I’ve always wondered about the Irish and sport. Given the huge influence Irish people had on the development of the United States, it’s odd that Gaelic Sports never gained traction & the US went on to have their own insular world of baseball, American Football and basketball. You’d think that in retreat from British cultural dominance that the Irish would be have gone to those sports but one the GAA stranglehold was broken, it was ‘soccer’ and rugby. What next? Cricket? Kilkenny used to be a total cricket haven if I recall, before the Rising, of course.

    The other thing about sport is how the Irish managed to export Riverdance and various other forms of culture to the world stage but never managed to sell GAA beyond a few pubs and satellite channels in the UK and US. Irish sport never went global when it could, given that hurling is an entirely psychotic game that would appeal to the most deranged male around the world if they knew of it. I assume Aussie Rules is some mutant hybrid but I never got past laughing at the tight short they all wear.

    Irish people subconsciously made a decision to reject the Gaelic Sport High Priests and began a process of Cultural Appropriation of British Sport via the whole Man Utd cult. And it’s just gathered steam since then. I think this was a smart move as it allowed Ireland to be part of the Global Conversation and their voice will certainly be heard during Euro 2016! Having had the option to retreat to a mystical De Valera world of Gaelic Sport, the Irish sensibly said “bollocks! we want to compete with the rest of the world” thus the rise of ‘soccer’ and ‘rugby which are both part of The Global Conversation whilst the World Series of American Football is a bizarre internal navel-gazing exercise which only gets the global eyeball count when mad Illuminati theorists analyze the half-time adverts and pop music extravaganzas of the Superbowl. All in all, a sensible subconscious cultural move by Irish people to refuse to be locked into a parochial parish-pump conversation. Now Irish people have the best of both worlds in sport: a vibrant local Gaelic Sports universe alongside being part of the Global Conversation in Soccer and Rugby. The US will, at some stage, also fully commit to those sports. The fact that they both arose from the cauldron of British Industrialisation is a historical curiosity which is worth exploring anytime any of you happen to be in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, London or Glasgow.

    Just back home from 14 mind-blowing days and nights in Ireland to observe the Centenary. I could write a book on all I’ve seen and heard but there isn’t time. Hope you all enjoyed the good, bad and ugly elements of it all. I had the time of my life and I’m so glad I carved out space in the diary to be there. Thanks to those I met who acted as cultural tour-guides and to those from the distant past who I never imagined I’d meet. There is a difficult ‘conversation’ to be had about the events and research that informed the last two weeks but that’s for another time. For now, I’d just like to say thanks and express my appreciation to all those who made the ‘Saxon foe’ feel so at home….LOL!

  15. CitizenWhy

    Interesting POV. But Irish youth would love basketball, a contact sport but with almost all teh hazards top the head removed. And it’s big and getting bigger in Europe. Cheap to play, and pick up games anywhere are so easy. Break the hold of British sports culture on Ireland. P.S. for a fun view a part of the Movie Euro Vacation is hilarious about sports culture in England.

  16. McCawber

    The main failure of the 1916 uprising was that DeValera wasn’t executed.The man was a blight on Ireland. A negative influence.
    Rugby school’s pupils biggest problem is their arrogance.
    I went to a non rugby CBS. I have two younger
    bros who went to a ‘top’ rugby school.
    Totally wasted on them but hey I still love them.
    DeValera and his party perfected the talentto look after number one.
    They are the party whose members are referred to as the faithful.
    I am bitter and if time travel was possible I’d transport Bertie Ahern back to 1916 and hand him over to the brits for execution.
    Maybe handing over his grandfather might be more effective.
    What would you change about the history of the 16 risong on a once only basis.

    • CitizenWhy

      Pretty much agree on deValera (who was elected from my parents parliamentary district). With him gone maybe Collins would not have been shot so cowardly and Collins would have set a better course. And the Lord High Exectioner Cosgrave would not have taken over, leading the way for a deValera victory.

      • cooldude

        Once you start killing people without any political mandate you can have the divisions which lead to the civil war. De Valera was a hugely negative influence on this country and had a Taliban view towards both women and economics. The unfortunate thing is the fledgling Irish state handed control of almost everything (education, health, mental care) to the immensely rich Catholic church. We now know just some of the horrors that resulted from this trade mainly from De Valera but also the rest with the some noble exclusions.

        Sport by its very nature has an element of danger. I have spent most of my life involved in different sports and I definitely found hurling to be the most dangerous I played. As to the accusation that rugby is a snobby sport everyone knows that this is true but there are loads of clubs trying to break up this stereotype and they are being actively helped by the rugby authorities. I would like to see David call Sean O Brian a snob because we all know what comes next. Also St Mary’s in Limerick is well known for it’s working class and inclusive roots. I have found golf to be probably the snobbiest sport in this country although that is changing but is still a major problem. The biggest problem in soccer is the total disrespect to the match officials. I was involved in a team for five years and the level of vitriol from the parents was unbelievable.

        The biggest problem with sports is the lack of players once they get to eigthteen. Most of these schoolboy rugby players pack it in afterwards. We need to get people involved in health and sport for life and to create more of a healthy lifestyle in general. All suggestions are welcome.

        • CitizenWhy

          You can play basketball for decades after 18. Summer and winter.

        • Truthist

          The teachings of Christ are totally wholesome.
          But, the Catholic Church was strategically targeted from its enemies to be infiltrated & corrupted in a sexual way long before it became the manifestations came to be in the public discourse.
          This is aside from the lone wolve perverts who sneak in as religious since the beginnings of any religion.
          That is always a danger when u have a philosophy or organisation or religion that has a wholesome essence.
          Snakes see it as very attractive to hide & strike the naive.
          Much like ;
          “By Deception, we shall wage war.”.
          And, today the Catholic Church is corrupt in more ways than the sexually deviant.
          But, so are all the other religions of every creed.
          Perhaps less so the Russian Orthodox Church because the Russian people are privy to the pains of deviancy brought upon them by the Bolsheviks [ Another project by "The City" ], & are trying to live virtuous lives.

          Actually, if u had in the main civil / public servants who were atheistic / secular / humanistic it would be much worse than having on-behalf-of-the-State religious who in the main would be sincerely christian.

          Have u Cooldude checked out “Common Purpose” & their insidious inroads to the Irish Institutional State with aim of making it even more corrupt & in the control of “The City” ?
          I trust ur point of reference Chrisspivey.com has done many exposes on Common Purpose.

          • Truthist

            Typos ;

            But, the Catholic Church was strategically targeted from its enemies to be infiltrated & corrupted in a sexual way long before the manifestations of abuse came to be in the public discourse.

            Have u Cooldude checked out “Common Purpose” & their insidious inroads to the Irish Institutional State with aim of making it even more corrupt & in the control of BY “The City” ?

          • So, you don’t agreement with the one of the fundamental tenets of a Republic which is ‘Separation of Church and State’? And presumably dismiss the French and American revolutions as erroneous, as did Pearse? At least you’re open about installing Religious Privilege. Your beliefs are your private concern, they have no place in the Constitution of the Irish State. That was the fatal mistake of The Proclamation of 1916.

          • @Truthist The Catholic church has been infested with rapist paedos since it’s inception and known all about it all along. Your ‘conspiracy theory’ to try and protect/resotre their reputation is hilarious but utterly preposterous.

            You are not alone in attempting to Greenwash the past 100 years by explicitly linking the Proclamation to Relgious Privilege. And that’s exactly what it did.

            ‘Martin Mansergh criticises secular readings of Proclamation’

            http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-mansergh-criticises-secular-readings-of-proclamation-1.2594321

          • @Truthist You need to have a word with Bill Clinton as he doesn’t seem to be on message with Martin Mansergh and Archbishop Diarmuid Martin:

            ” Dr Mansergh says Irish republicanism was not the same as French republicanism which had an anti-clerical and secular bent and led to laicité, the separation of church and state in France.
            As evidence, Dr Mansergh cites the Proclamation which states: “We place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God.”
            Religious beliefs
            Dr Mansergh also suggests that the drive for independence was a drive to ensure that Irish society reflected “for the first time in centuries the religious beliefs and values of the people”. He concedes there were “mixed judgments on the subsequent experience”.
            In the book’s preface, Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin says Dublin’s Pro-Cathedral rarely featured in any of the commentary on the Rising, though it was the “centre of humanitarian and spiritual concern during the dramatic days of Easter Week 1916”.

            What Clinton says is “Speaking of the proclamation Clinton stated it was “a document that says that Ireland will be established for all people who believe in freedom in constitutional government without regard for their religion or their race or background.”

            Given the growing presence of Islam in Ireland I’m sure you’d agree there’s no place for Religious Privilege in the Constitution? If there is then prepare for enclaves of Sharia Law in Dublin and other major cities. Is that what you want? Or are you saying The Most High God is only the Catholic one? Game. Set. Match. Over and out…

            ‘Bill Clinton says 1916 proclamation has key message for today’

            http://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/Bill-Clinton-1916-proclamation-key-message-todays-conflicts.html

          • Truthist

            Very much a “GCHQ Cheltenham Warehouse” reply from u.
            U are intriguing to say the least.
            Loquacious to such an extent that I wonder seriously if u are one who Has-a-bar…Ah

            The Catholic Church should be properly audited as to its corruption.
            As should every other institution in the State.

            Then the Catholic Church should be purged of its deviants.
            Personally prosecuted if possible.

            Then there should be perfect “SYMPHONY of a then virtuous Catholic Church [ the stated Religion of the Majority of Peoples in Ireland ( both Aborigine Irish & Non-Aborigine Irish Immigrants ) & much agreeable in the main to all the other Christian denominations, & also to reasonable persons who know before arriving in Ireland that Ireland is traditionally a Catholic society that abhors homosexuality & abortion inter alia that are destroying many persons today that in another mileau would never be tempted to go down that road ( as do other notable Religions : Buddhism, Islam ], & The Irish State

            Similar as Russia under Putin.

            Russian tourists & emigrants are rapidly developing an admiration worldwide for their wholesome character upon renewed Symphony of Church & State following the diabolical USSR straight-jacket Communism imposed upon the Orthodox Christians & Catholics in the main [ involving a genocide of approx 100 million captive citizens by the Bolsheviks ( of which Bernie Sanders would be a cousin ; The Bolshevik revolution was majority committed by Anti-Russians based in New York ) ] under guidance of Putin ;
            And, all — absolutely all — persons of any other religion [ including Atheism ], & homsexuals, & bisexuals, & trysexuals are safeguarded from persecution ;
            And, rightly so safeguarded as it is the State has formed a fortunate Symphony with a virtuous Church.

            Constantin Gurdiev being a good example of the renewed Russians.
            When I next meet Constantin, I certainly will not be eulogising the French revolution / terror nor distorting the replacement of Bernayistic Crypto-Communism [ And, having decoy Corpocracy what have u ] with perfect SYMPHONY of overwhelming main religion of the inhabitants of then “democratic” Irish State with The Irish State itself as installing Religious “Privilege” ; A spurious & perjorative rhetorical term to refer to what is really a benign & wise governance.
            Nor would I be hypocritical as some who have the nerve to display themselves as avowing their beliefs solely privately & that they have no place in the Constitution of the Irish State, when they actually do the complete opposite.

            Why are u displaying a photo of a very innocent looking boy as ur Avatar ?

            It is very unsettling given that u recently are avowing to publicly campaign for the right to murder unborn children despite u knowing that this is a capital offence in the Irish State that Garda-Landlords would be obliged under the Constitution to prosecute with due process that u be imprisoned & not released until the Irish State can be assured that u will not breach its cherished protection of children unborn, & thus born children too.

          • @Truthist

            Do you work for The Iona ‘Institute’? Or did you? Before you had a psychotic break and were ‘let go’? This is easily the lulziest reply I’ve ever had. EVVA! It’s so good I just HAVE to post it on my FB timeline so my friends and lurkers can LOL! along. Totally hilarious. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for making me laugh so much I nearly wet myself.

            The Avatar? It’s me. As a lad. I was an Irish Dancer. I still am. I danced at the first ever World’s Irish Feis in Parnell Square in Dublin in 1970. I’d won every single championship in England, the sideboard groaned with replica trophies and you’d be blinded by the flash of medals on harp-shaped green felt trophy boards as you entered the house. They were everywhere. Drove my Dad mad evertime Mom made another one. But I didn’t win because they wouldn’t give the first ever World’s medal to a Saxon. So they banjaxed me. How they did so is so sad and disgusting that it will wait until the curtain rises on ‘An Irish Childhood In Birmingham’ but some here know and some may easily guess. I never danced again. Or not in public. But I never stopped. And I never will. It’s more Tai-Chi style Ceili now. I’m about to enrol at Boot Camp here in Birmingham, with a notable Irish Dancer tutor to get the show wrapped up.

            You claim to speak on behalf of ‘Ireland’ but your claims are specious. For there are many Irelands. I’m not talking about the multi-cultural nonsense of ghettoes and enclaves but about UniDiversity where there’s an emerging unified vision of the values that make you Irish and those that make you something else. Diversity within a Universal Common Framework. To include the US 1st Amendment. Habeous Corpus and….. well, it’s work in progress so I won’t give any spoilers.

            The fact that you still think Ireland can carry on sending young women over on the boat to Liverpool for terminations whilst pontificating from within a whited sepulchre show how utterly bankrupt your morality is. No doubt you were bewailing Marriage Equality and had a fit of the vapours when #EndaMetPanti ? Your problem.

            I’ve written that you’ve made me laugh out loud but as one of the truly great songs by The Smiths was entitled: “That Joke Isn’t Funny Anymore”

            ps: Don’t expect me to dignify your nonsense with any further replies.

            #SeparationOfChurchandState

            #repealthe8th

            #SavitaHalappanavar

            ‘Helen and Graham Linehan on abortion in Ireland’

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYpRBR93TdU

          • Deco

            Truthist.

            Thanks for the term Bernaytic Crypto Communism.

            That is the dominant ethos in the state currently.

            And frankly it is bonkers. The Irish copy of Cambridge Marxism. It all amounts to an obsession with superficiality, and an dishonesty concerning theft via the “system”.

          • Truthist

            Thank u Deco.

            It was from http://www.henrymakow.com that I first learned of Edward Bernays.

            Why don’t u write a book specifically on “The Institutional State of The Irish State” ?

            It should sell like hot cakes.

            Warning ; Do not approach a City Partnership or Enterprise Board or Enterprise Ireland if u have an idea of real merit ;
            incl.
            Expose on “The Institutional State of The Irish State”
            [ I.S.I.S. ( Real ; Not the False Flag creation of N.A.T.O. ]
            or
            [ I.S.T.I.S. ( Lest the False Flag Proxy be aggrieved at ur breach of their Copyright ]
            [

            Internet Blog will always be more ephemeral than the book.

    • Mike Lucey

      @McCawber

      While I would not wish the firing squad on anyone I would wish that on the 14th October 1882 a baby born in New York was born in Bruree, County Limerick instead!

    • Truthist

      De Velera actually had the correct approach for any, & every, country ;
      Be self-sufficient.
      But, he & most of the rest of Irish society have not been very good at it.

      Collins, despite his gifts, would have been ruthlessly autocratic in the age of Fascism & Communism that came in vogue since the 1930′s.

      Bertie Aherne is not a product of Fianna Fail.
      He is simply a product of the Land of Raints & Rholars.

      Majority of folks here admire this type of person.
      Bertie is “cute” / “a cute hoor”.

  17. survivalist

    Despite the rest of the space filling, I take the 2 key premises from this article as being:
    1.That Irelands the revolutionary period from 1914 to 1924 was really not so much a battle between the Irish and the British.
    And
    2. That it was always (?) a matter of when the Brits were going to high-tail out of Ireland, which was in fact something that London was planning during that era.

    And though not explained in the article the London plan was possibly due to the Empires newfound (?) set of republican(?) or humanitarian(?) values which rendered imperialism a bit of an embarrassing hiccup that had by 1914(?) run its course.

    The London plan arrived then some 3 or 4 centuries after the expansion of empire had first popped into existence. No doubt that phenomenon was an uninvited occurrence and one only reticently embraced by the UK elites. Generation after generation after generation…

    Moreover the Irish men and women who took part in the revolutions were likely aware of the London plan and figured that what they really needed to do to secure their power after the UK elites had packed up, was to organise what must have been a staged revolution in 1916; then stage a war of independence in 1919 and finally cap it off with a staged civil war in 1922, convinced as they were, that this was the best way to assume local power.

    Uniquely the organisers of the staged wars actually took part in these slaughters due to a combination on factors:
    1. The usual cannon fodder were busy liberating brave Flanders and
    2. Because they were a Catholic middle class therefore they just didn’t mind dying as a means to secure power.

    And all this deduced from the supposed occupations of some of the participants which were scribbled into a journal sometime, somewhere in the early 1900s. No doubt there was a rush to ensure that this article was not published on April 1.

    I suggest that whatever label you wish to fix to our revolutionary ‘heroes’; catholic, protestant, upper, middle or lower class, educated at the right or the wrong school-in the end they were ordinary people opposing an unjustified tyranny. They chose to organise a resistance.

    And they won, despite the colossal odds stacked against them.

    Maybe that’s what pisses so many people off? But blaming Ireland’s woes on the dead generations who endured and eventually overcame seems like a red herring to me.

    • CitizenWhy

      One who is a member of the chattering class, one of the better members, nonetheless can get carried away by what used to be called a conceit. There is no mention of the general strike of 1913 (it failed) and the reluctance of the Trades Union Council to try another working class revolution so soon afterwards (although some actions, as Dublin rose, were taken by workers to seize places of employment). The Trades Union Council conceded leadership to the Nationalists, a group which in every colony is dominated by the middle class, lower or middle or upper. The new government elected in 1918 did in January of 1919 make its first two proclamations: independence, and the Democratic Programme(name?) as submitted to the nationalist government by the Trade Unions Coucil. Collins tried to implement at least some of the Democratic Programme but had no money to do so (the UK government having cut off all the funding, previously given to the Castle regime). So Ireland was theoretically inaugurated as a kind of Social Democracy. But the Democratic Programme was never heard from again. Ironically, if Ireland had gotten Home Rule, at least some of the Democratic Programme might have been implemented.

  18. CitizenWhy

    There is a very good free course on the internet on Ireland 1914-1916. https://mail.verizon.com/webmail/driver?nimlet=showmessages&view=emails#mail_Emails_INBOX

  19. Deco

    In 1916, some people with arms decided that we needed to leave an imperial racket in a hurry.

    In 2016, we have prominent people talking about 1916 as being a significant event, and extolling the virtues of the current imperial racket.

    The public discussion about 1916 omits one important discussion point, we are once again in an imperial concern. Our independence is that of a glorified local authority with an expensive bureacracy, and a tendency to obey the needs of the imperial concenrn.

    In other words, Official Ireland is once again, on another bullsh!t run, that is designed to capture the people’s imagnation, against the people’s well being.

    The thole thing is BS folks.

    The people talking about the “vision” are all bought and paid for, already. They serve the new Imperial machine. In fact it’s is imperative that you serve the new power machine.

  20. Deco

    Pity, the nation, where those in charge are unleashing venom at not being able to twist history so as to screw up the future.

    Hell is coming to locality near you.

    No need for functional concerns, because dysfunctionality has become the objective.

    An Empire once again.

    A hellhole much worse one than the last one. Much worse.

    Founded on insiderism, waste, Bernays and the needs of the 1% richest. And a new garrison concept. And a new culture control class.

    Society must not merely be hollowed out, but the people too. The Patrician class have a security requirement. Ponzi-nomics or bust, becomes bust.

    Like all imperial rackets, the goal is about control. The lying that exists for the sake of control is astounding.

    A new imperialist in a green jersey, with superficial, empty patriotism. and no freedom. Compliance over-rules freedom.

    A flawed concept of liberty is promoted because it enslaves.

  21. I left Dublin feeling extremely happy and proud of my legacy identity as ‘Irish’ even though I’m now not Irish/English/British or deffo not European but a Global Citizen. I had a distinct feeling that people were on the streets not only to commemorate/celebrate The Rising of 1916 but also to gain some psychological bolstering to help them in the continuing struggle to rebalance the Irish economy and political life towards something that is more befitting of a true Republic. I sat and read Fintan O’Toole’s books on that topic when my feet were sore from being The Dublin Flaneur. The sun was mostly shining in a beautiful blue sky and it hardly rained. IT HARDLY RAINED! I take the weather as a good omen as well as the relaxed demeanour of all on the streets, other than that weird black beret/balaclava thingy on Easter Monday which interrupted the synchronized Dublin wide wreath laying ceremony at the Four Courts. I saw the Justice Minister looking nervously towards the Liffey so I skipped off to watch as the guards kept calm and just let it be. In England they’d have all been kettled so top marks for not rising to the unscripted attempt at provocation because: Free Speech. Etc.

    So, to finish my ruminations on all this I got a truly optimistic vibe despite numerous personal equivocations on what The Rising of 1916 meant then, now and in the future. I think, to paraphrase/mis-quote Leonard Cohen: “I have seen The Future, brother & it ISN’T murder”
    I think Ireland has a great future. Once The English reclaim the Sovereign Space Of The Nation State by voting #FcUKEU to Europa Inc and it’s demon offspring: Ireland Inc. LOL!

    Keep saying I’m outta here to do something other than ‘rant’ but I tink this is it. So bye! Cheerio! Toodle pip! Tara a bit!

    Peace
    Mad Paddy From Brum aka: ‘Peaky Paddy Blinder’

    “do not look yonder to a Saxon Foe, nor to the English Realm, but to Kilkenny Castle to the Butler-Ormand Normans of yore: that clue is all ye need to know”

    ‘Remembering the Easter Rising but not its Troubling legacy’

    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irishvoice/Remembering-the-Easter-Rising-but-not-its-Troubling-legacy.html

  22. Gosh I am fed up with all things Oirish already. Thank God I am not there right now.

    I couldn’t give a f**k about 1916. What was achieved from it? Nothing, zilch.

    Look at the state of the place 100 years later.

    This was the most tedious set of comments I have ever had the misfortune to wade through on David’s blog.

    Can we have an internationally focused article next please David?!

    • Deco

      The 1916 jamboree is a bit hollow to be honest. It seems to have fested a BS fest. It has been buggered by Belfield and the quangos.

      It is being presented to the PAYE txpayer as justification for a state system that absorbs large amounts of money from the people, and returns scandals, underperformance and unaccountability in return.

      The state does no underperform because of the British, the Vatican or even the current Imperial dictat machine in Brussels.

      If failed because it puts the likes of Patrick Neary, Eamon Gilmore’s missus, Rody Molloy, Joe Duffy, etc.. in roles where they get paid absurd amounts of money for mediocrity.

      • Deco

        Of course, in an institutional state where mediocrity is pervasive and waste common, it has to be “somebody else’s fault”.

        Always.

        • McCawber

          Complain more. They hate that.

        • McCawber

          And demand less state services.
          And become more self sufficient.
          That is the pathway to real independence and always will be.
          The more a nation’s citizens look to the state apparatus the more freedoms they surrender.
          That is why Tony is so right about Central Banks.
          Citizens look governments to solve their problems and the governments pass the book to the CBs.

  23. McCawber

    The one and only positive thing that 1916 gave us was opportunity.
    That was a huge gift.
    And then what did Bertie and the faithful do when that opportunity finally presented itself.
    Absolutely toe ragged it.

  24. Perhaps Thomas Clarke’s comments were more prescient than he realised when, with the GPO in flames, he was asked what he would have done had the Rising been a success:

    “I’d get a small cottage with a a big wall around it and I would grow flowers.”

    Those who gained most from post-Independence Ireland – i.e. those whose fortunes came into ascendancy – responded to the challenge of nation-building by retreating behind walls, hiding themselves away and cultivating their own sense of self-interest and self-preservation.

  25. Truthist

    David, u no doubt are aware that there are people who associate ur good self with the very Ross O’Carroll-Kelly character u speak about above.
    Personally, I dispute there being any similarity.
    Not least because I find the Ross O’Carroll-Kelly character to be very boring, & the sketches not entertaining.
    I trust that the creator of Ross O’Carroll-Kelly is capable of much better.
    And, I am surprised that the very sharp The Phoenix magazine attributively pursue the Ross O’Carroll-Kelly character likeness to u.
    See excerpt from the link below.

    Anyways, the most distinctive snobby accents having any locality have to be the range of Cork snobby ones.
    Cork — the city of the merchant princes — is a much more dramatic place of class differences than is Dublin.
    Even its geography attests to this.
    The social housing colossus of Cork City’s Northside is always bearing down on the overall Cork City’s more salubrious Southside like a high wall gathering of Apaches.

    http://www.joe.ie/news/five-things-you-should-know-about-david-mcwilliams/11229

    START OF EXCERPT
    David is a Blackrock old boy

    McWilliams attended Ireland’s most exclusive secondary school, Blackrock College.
    He then went on to Ireland’s most exclusive university at Trinity.
    His educational history and behaviour have led some commentators to liken him to a real-life version of a Ross O’Carroll-Kelly character ;
    A theme often followed in satire magazine, Phoenix.

    McWilliams believes that his reputation in that regard is unfounded and that he in fact comes from humble origins.
    He has given radio interviews in which he has backed up his claim by pointing out that his father was unemployed.
    END OF EXCERPT

    • Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Truthist, but David ‘has Cork in him as well’ so he’s tainted no matter what way we look at it!

      • Truthist

        Adam,
        I do not know how having Cork in a person is bad news.
        My reference to the range of snobby accents in Cork being the most distinctive is not necessarily even a negative comment on the wearers of such accents.
        A person can have a snobby accent or just posh & yet be a excellent human being.
        It comes down to morals & having a good heart & being the best u can reasonably be in ur vocation[s] & wisdom.
        And, yes, there is very dramatic class differences there.
        Much more than Dublin.
        Cork was the playground of the British Ascendancy in Ireland.
        And, they wished to declare Cork as the capital instead of Dublin.
        Hence, the famous saying ;
        “Limerick was.
        Dublin is.
        Cork will be.”
        I happen to like many Cork people very much.
        As I do indeed many Dublin people.
        As I do indeed many other Irish people of various religions & all parts of the island.
        Still, Adam, unless u are native to the shore there [ grown up integrated in that locality ], u are never really a Corkman [ And, Cork having a vast variety of types ] or Kerryman [ And, Kerry having very much a small variety of types ].
        They are rather special folks there.
        And, they think of themselves as special too.
        Jamaican accent originates from slaves brought from Cork region.
        Sir Walter Raleigh owned the place.
        So did Richard Boyle ; Father of Robert Boyle [ Father of Modern Chemistry ].
        British Empire was defeated in Cork by the way.
        Trio of Terence MacSweeney, Michael Collins, & Tom Barry.
        Brits burnt down the Cork City in revenge for being defeated.
        That Tom Barry originated from Kerry is only incidental.
        Essentially, Cork & Kerry are of singular region — Desmond –within Munster.
        Speaking of Munster, De Velera coming from Thomond region of Munster.
        It is time we adopted the best of De Velera & Collins to free us.
        The Garda-Landlords who are given to reminding the unfortunate citizen that they “the Garda-Landlords are the Law, & that the citizen has no rights” while they are doing very nasty stuff to the citizen in the Garda-Landlord station even though “There is no such thing as the law ; Only a series of Rules forced upon u with Threats & Intimidation by a Group of Thugs with a Monopoly on Violence.”, well …, we can safely depend on them to save us from Bankster terrorists such as Jean Claude Trichet who cooly breeezed into Dublin after having threatened Minister for Finance Michael Noonan that the European Central Bank [ E.C.B. ] / Trilateral Commission [ European Lodge ] / etc. of Rothschilds would b..mb Dublin if Irish State did follow the Armchair General Advice of Burning the Bondholders.
        The Garda-Landlords are to be our Tom Barry flying column.
        De Velera could endear himself to players of his day as he did with Einstein & associates in New York, & De Gaulle, & eventually Churchill inter alia.
        Collins being Collins would focus on tackling the corrupt Civil Servants.
        And, he would have been appalled at the incursion of sinister foreign organisation organising the Institutional State of the Irish State,
        vis.
        “Common Purpose”.

        http://www.cpexposed.com/country/ireland

        http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/165808-common-purpose-who-they.html

        http://chrisspivey.org/the-truth-about-the-eu/

        • Well I wasn’t being serious but thanks for the response.

          I like Cork and people from Cork (in general).

          My first job in the Caribbean in 1999 was arranged for me by a Corkman who I am still close to.

          Last time I was in West Cork in 2013 I had a wonderful time. Beautiful part of the country.

          • Truthist

            Adam,

            I very much enjoyed learning of ur soccer career in Hungary.

            Have u an explanation why Hungary & so many other southern European nations try to play soccer more artistically than the Irish ?

    • StephenKenny

      Reads like someone’s on a fishing trip, to me.

      • Truthist

        Stephen ;
        I certainly am not on a fishing trip Re ; David.

        But, given the subject matter of current article, I had to refer to the attributed basing of Ross O’Carroll-Kelly character on David McWilliams.
        It is a well known attribution.
        To ignore it would be akin to shying from saying that the emperor has no clothes.

        And, I stated that I do not see how Ross O’Carroll-Kelly character could be similar to David.

        I then sent a useful reply to Adam’s reply to me.
        However, it is still in this censored state ;

        “Your comment is awaiting moderation.
        April 2, 2016 at 2:38 pm”

        Incredible stuff given that I am certainly one of the persons who is gruelingly suffering from that fateful advice given to then Minister for Finance at a certain person’s kitchen.
        Deco should be concerned about “Right of Free Speech” issue here.
        Lest there be Wahhabi ethics here on this blog.

        • StephenKenny

          I wasn’t referring to you, but to “joe”.
          Comments get put into moderation, in my experience, if they have too many links, or not enough text per link, or something like that.
          The kitchen table story has been going around from it’s start, and, at it’s start, it was made clear that the key part of the recommendation was that the bank guarantee should be for a very limited period: Stop the banks going down in a liquidity squeeze/run, and once that period is over, remove the guarantee. As it was stated at the time, that was the recommendation.

          • Truthist

            Stephen, I glad that u were not referring to me.
            But, anyway, I do not see any Joe above.

            Re ; Kitchen Table Bank Guarantee Advice

            I raised these points before, but colleagues here failed to pursue.

            1.
            Then Min. for Finance Mr. Brian Lenihan had a particular brother who attributively invented the Double Irish Sausage & Dutch Sandwich.
            Surely, Min. for Finance should have got the ultimate “Shark” Advice from that source.
            Afterall, the this brother’s devised “cozy shop” was an enfant terrible for the likes of Netherlands, France, & Luxembourg, et all “cozy shops”.
            Thus, no need to go to David.

            2.
            Min. for Finance Mr. Brian Lenihan never came across as patriotic or essentially concerned about ordinary folk.
            His responses in public debate down throughout the years proceeding the terrible Bank Guarantee decision were those of a Lawyer mindful of protecting the financial position & power of the professional class, & interested in socalled liberalising of social laws to impact on all classes.
            If he was of genuinely patriotic, & social conscience, character we not alone would have a Politician-Lawyer properly cleaned up the Lawyer racket when he was Min. for Justice, but he would have had the insight & conviction as Min. for Finance to refute the accusation that Irish licensed banks are culpable to foreign banksters & bond-holders for the approx 2 % only of the paper, & digital, non-money they loaned to borrowers with interest ;
            And, the Irish licensed banks being not culpable because the foreign banksters knew prior to any transfer of that approx 2 % to the Irish State licensed banksters exactly the guaranteed ultimate outcome of all that crass banking policy, inter alia.
            And, furthermore, the Irish State is not culpable to foreign banksters for what they originally claim Irish State licensed banksters are culpable for.

            Same as narcotics given on credit are not indebted to the giver if the receiver is not in a position to pay.
            And, certainly, the citizens of the jurisdiction where the receiver is licensed to operate their own narcotics distribution, are not responsible for the receiver’s debts.

            Same as

          • Truthist

            Sorry about premature sending of reply ;
            Baby played on keyboard 8-)
            And, apologies also for typos in above.

            Resuming ;

            2. [ Continued ]
            Same as citizens of jurisdiction are not responsible for what jurisdiction’s licensed casinos are claimed to owe foreign casinos.

            3.
            There is no such thing as a “partial” Hole.
            A Hole is a Hole.

            Likewise, there is no such thing as a partial guarantee for debt.
            A guarantee for debt is a “whole” [ no pun intended ] guarantee.
            It extends into time until the debt is fully paid or the creditor cancels the debt ahead of being fully paid or the debtor cannot pay.

            The Irish State should NEVER have given any guarantee.
            It was not their affair.

            Call the foreign banksters & the locally licensed banksters bluff at any time whilst the State has the biggest U.S.A. multi-national prodcution investment in any jurisdiction outside of the U.S.A..
            A real bank-run would not occur.

            But, the Trilateral Commission [ European Lodge ; Former Attorney Gen. of Irish State Sir Peter Sutherland is Head Honcho] / Grand Orient Freemason Lodge [ Jean Claude Trichet is Member ] / The E.U. / The E.C.B. / The I.M.F. etc. & especially “The City” & certain Irish Civil Servant & other Irish Politico Collaborators of the Rothschilds are especially proud of how they manipulated the Irish nation to be enslaved without firing a single shot.

          • StephenKenny

            “But, anyway, I do not see any Joe above.”
            This is the link in your earlier comment, form which the ‘Exert’ was taken.

            As to the rest of your comment, I don’t really have any idea what you’re talking about, except that Mr Brian Lenihan is not competent, or interested in the wellbeing of the Irish population. I’d agree with that.

          • Truthist

            OK, Stephen, I finally uncovered whom u meant by “joe”, vis.

            http://www.joe.ie/news/five-things-you-should-know-about-david-mcwilliams/11229

            U were very taciturn there.

            As for my comment ;
            It is perfectly intelligible.

            Anyway, enjoy ur day.

  26. StephenKenny

    On a related, but slightly tangential subject, and interesting piece on the ForeignPolicy website, about the ‘revolution’ happening in Brazil.

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/31/constantino-brazil-rousseff-lula-breitbart/?wp_login_redirect=0

    ForeignPolicy com is interesting as it is on US NeoCon view of the world. It is a pay-for site, but allows 5 free articles. This article is interesting because, in it’s clear support of the current anti-government demonstrations in Brazil, it gives a little history of the leaders of these groups – ‘Atlas’, and ‘Students for Liberty’ – It seems that they were trained in the USA, and their funding from ” conservative U.S. groups such as the John Templeton and Charles Koch Foundations”.

    Whenever I see a group with a name like ‘Students for Liberty’, I immediately think of all those ‘People’s Democratic Republics of ….”, which were neither for the people, nor democratic, nor really republics.

    It looks like another Ukraine, and, after all, Brazil is the ‘B’ in BRICS.

    By the way, I support small government, but I also support regulation in favour of the many over the few.

    • CitizenWhy

      We had small and local government in the USA. It enshrined the Jim Crow system, a softer form of slavery where Afro-Americans were denied human rights.

    • Truthist

      I am of like mind with urself Stephen in many ways.
      And, I also share CitizenWhy’s concerns below.
      That CitizenWhy counters what u state for how government should be, I perceive it as a necessary qualification as to how to do it properly.
      I think both of u are fair individuals.
      Whatever system of government we may earnestly devise as fair & decent & just, we know that it must have facility for flexibility or moreso ongoing sense of balance & wisdom.

      And, with this in mind, & especially the bulk of this afternoon’s post by u both, I must highly recommend that yee view http://www.henrymakow.com latest 2 articles.

      START OF EXCERPTS FROM “NWO is a Fait Accompli”

      “What the Trilateral Commission intends is to create a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nation states involved.
      As managers and creators of the system ,they will rule the future.” –

      U.S. Senator and Luciferian Freemason Barry Goldwater in his l964 book: With No Apologies.

      “Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
      Our minds are moulded, our tastes are formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.”

      Walter Bernays Propaganda 1928

      “For a long time I felt that FDR had developed many thoughts and ideas that were his own to benefit this country, the United States.
      But, he didn’t. Most of his thoughts, his political ammunition, as it were, were carefully manufactured for him in advanced by the Council on Foreign Relations-One World Money group.
      Brilliantly, with great gusto, like a fine piece of artillery, he exploded that prepared “ammunition” in the middle of an unsuspecting target, the American people, and thus paid off and returned his internationalist political support…
      The depression was the calculated ‘shearing’ of the public by the World Money powers, triggered by the planned sudden shortage of supply of call money in the New York money market.” –

      Curtis Dall,as quoted in his book, My Exploited Father-in-Law –

      “Do not believe for an instant that the world’s conspiring elite in every nation have so much as a serious quarrel among them.
      They have just one object: control through tribute.
      Your slavery, through tribute, and mine…
      Behind this attack are the self-styled elite, secure in their own power and riches…
      To be effective we must direct our attacks on the real criminals, the wealthy, and powerful and secret elite of all the world–the conspirators laboring day and night to enslave us.” –

      Taylor Caldwell, novelist, The Captains and the Kings, 1974

      “The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of “liberalism”, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” –

      Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate

      END OF EXCERPTS FROM “NWO is a Fait Accompli”

      Paul Ryan is NO authentic Catholic.
      And, his model for “small” government would certainly not be Stephen Kenny’s I contend upon having read a great many of Stephens comments over the years.
      I do not like him Stephen & CitizenWhy.

      START OF EXCERPTS FROM “Cuba is a Model of NWO”

      Nothing will change in Cuba because Castro’s Cuba is more advanced [in the NWO] than the U.S.

      Actually, Americans have much to learn from Castro’s Cuba.
      No wonder David Rockefeller and other CFR honchos describe Castro’s Cuba as “a model to follow.”[1]

      What can Americans learn from Castro’s Cuba ?
      Among other things, they can learn how to destroy the middle class.
      For many decades, the CFR conspirators have been destroying the American middle class.
      Well, Castro did it in Cuba in just a few years.

      Before Castro took power in Cuba in 1959 with the help of …the U.S. government, Cuba had one of the most expansive middle class — only second to the U.S.[2]
      Today, there are only two social classes in Cuba: the hyper rich, a small group composed of Castro himself, his relatives and close associates, and the hyper poor, consisting of the 99 percent of the population living in the most abject moral and material misery.

      Another thing the Castroists pioneered is outsourcing jobs.
      The only difference is that, instead of outsourcing the jobs to countries with semi-slave workers, he exported the semi-slave Cuban workers — mostly construction workers and physicians — to other countries.
      Like the slave workers assembling iPads and iPhones in China, Cuban workers abroad don’t get paid directly by their employers, who pay their salaries in dollars to the Cuban government.
      Then, the Cuban government not only pays the workers in devaluated Cuban pesos but also keeps more than 75 percent of the earnings.

      Moreover, something the Castroists implemented and we will soon see implemented in America is a change in currency — which resulted in stealing the people’s money.

      Other things the Castroists pioneered and will come to America very soon is the harassing of effeminate homosexuals and interning them in reeducation camps,[8]

      END OF EXCERPTS FROM “Cuba is a Model of NWO”

      I trust that my yonder GiGi Nemesis who probably “has a bar” will be screaming foul from the keyboard mittens about the last excerpt.

  27. CitizenWhy

    Very interesting indeed. You are correct, these leaders have been trained in the US right wing libertarian (laissez-faire) doctrines of the Kochs and their ilk. But Liberty, as used in the English speaking colonies of America, did define the term as it was defined by the Puritans and other Parliamentary forces rebelling against the king and the higher nobility back in England. Liberty meant the sacred right to own property (including people: as serfs, workers or slaves), and to do with your property as you please, without interference from the monarch/central government. This is the liberty of the Magna Carta, of the establishment of Parliament (giving the merchant/business class the major power in the government). Legislatures were to be controlled by the business class and were meant to protect the interests of that class against the power of the king/president. All “liberal” democracy enshrine the sacred right og property ownership and the principle that the more you own the more political power you should have, as long as you acted in the interests of the business class. The highest expression of Liberty then becomes laissez-faire capitalism. This is what the Kochs and many of his fellow right wingers want for America. Their plan is to fully restore this Liberty and wipe out the reforms initiatied by Franklin Delano Roosevelt. The Clintons are allies in this endeavor, but center right, that is, they eblieve in a government safety net, not generous. They certainly do not believe in Social democracy. To the Kochs environmental protection, and national parks, are violations of Liberty. All property should be privatized and the owners left to do as they please.

    Paul Ryan, that good Irish-American Catholic, is another one out to restore “Liberty,” that is, minimal government (except for war) and no government assistance to the poor and displaced. He is a tool of the Action Society, a group of rich Catholics dedicated to teaching that Catholic Social teaching requires minimal government, no unions, no assistance to the poor, no environmental protection and a weak and minimally active central government (except for war). The worst – and most successful – thing that the Acton Society has done is to bring Protestant pastors and teach them that laissez-faire capitalissm is the only economic system compatible with Biblical Christianity. All others, including any where the government provides for social security pensions, are sinful. According to Ryan and the Acton Society all aid to the poor should be provided by churches and non-profit organizations/NGOs (with no government funds).

    So your point is quite relevant. Elites must own, with no interference, and must rule in the interest of what they own. True in Ireland as well as the US.

  28. Looking to the future; a way more interesting debate than banging on about irrelevant crap and dead people from 100 years ago:

    “When Things Fall Apart”

    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/next-phase-for-democratic-capitalism-by-anatole-kaletsky-2016-03

    • something for nothing is the proposal. countries can create money and give it to citizens and all is well. Everyone will have a working wage but without the requirement to work. with no work, of course, there will be no productivity, nothing to spend the free money upon.

      It is known as “a fools paradise” in my opinion. If printing money and distributing it worked we would all be millionaires and living the life of the idle rich.

      • It’s an opinion piece about general themes Tony. There’s no specific suggestion to give money directly to people. Everything is up for grabs and all options are on the table. We can’t go on as we are, that’s for sure.

        • “Money could be printed and distributed directly to citizens. Minimum wages could be raised to reduce inequality. ”

          The overriding topic is markets do not work.
          I would suggest that is because governments of all stripes and other agencies e.g. the central banking system,have distorted markets to the point there is no such thing as a free market.
          Without the free operations of the market place mis-allocations occur to the point of economic disaster. In addition this is not just done in ignorance but maliciously contrived as a means for the elites to control the masses.

  29. This talk is worth the 26 mins guys:

    https://vimeo.com/161183966

    Gold gets a mention about 15 mins in Tony, if that will swing it for you.

    • Fascinating Adam. Gupta is a talented teacher. SE asian name attached with a charming Scottish accent and tethered together in a brilliant mind.
      Recommend the listening very highly!!!

  30. joe hack

    “Battle for the positions of privilege lay at the heart of the Rising” Get a grip! What positions are you talking about the graves plots in Arbour hill!

    And here is one that did not end up in a position within a grave yard, Markievicz died at the age of 59 on 15 July 1927, of complications related to appendicitis. She had given away the last of her wealth, and died in a public ward “among the poor where she wanted to be”

  31. joe hack

    David McWilliams favours Home rule, now we know what teach in the ‘positioned’ black rock or is he pissed that 1916 spoiled it for him.

  32. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1os231/why_did_the_british_treat_the_irish_so_badly/

    Malone. … My father died of starvation in Ireland in the black ’47. Maybe you heard of it?
    Violet. The Famine!
    Malone (with smouldering passion) No, the Starvation. When a country is full of food, and exporting it, there can be no famine. Me father was starved dead; and I was starved out to America in me mother’s arms. English rule drove me and mine out of Ireland . …

    George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903)

    Comments of the Duke of Wellington (1830)

    Politicians were well aware of the underlying causes though they did nothing to tackle them. For example, on 7 July 1830 the Duke of Wellington wrote:

    I confess that the annually recurring starvation in Ireland, for a period differing, according to the goodness or badness of the season, from one week to three months, gives me more uneasiness than any other evil existing in the United Kingdom.

    It is starvation, because it is the fact that, although there is an abundance of provisions in the country of a superior kind, and at a cheaper rate than the same can be bought in any other part of Her Majesty’s dominions, those who want in the midst of plenty cannot get, because they do not possess even the small sum of money necessary to buy a supply of food.

    It occurs every year, for that period of time that elapses between the final consumption of one year’s crop of potatoes, and the coming of the crop of the following year, and it is long or short, according as the previous season has been bad or good.

    Now when this misfortune occurs, there is no relief or mitigation, excepting a recourse to public money. The proprietors of the country, those who ought to think for the people, to foresee this misfortune, and to provide beforehand a remedy for it, are amusing themselves in the Clubs in London, in Cheltenham, or Bath, or on the Continent, and the Government are made responsible for the evil, and they must find the remedy for it where they can—anywhere excepting in the pockets of Irish Gentlemen.

    Then, if they give public money to provide a remedy for this distress, it is applied to all purposes excepting the one for which it is given; and more particularly to that one, viz. the payment of arrears of an exorbitant rent.

    However, we must expect that this evil will continue, and will increase as the population will increase, and the chances of a serious evil, such as the loss of a large number of persons by famine, will be greater in proportion to the numbers existing in Ireland in the state in which we know that the great body of the people are living at this moment. [Wellington to Northumberland, 7 July 1830, in Despatches, vii 111–2; repr. in P. S. O’Hegarty, A history of Ireland under the Union (London 1952) 291–2]

    The political culture of the time encouraged philanthropy, and charitable organisations were founded in Britain to help the Irish poor, whose miserable plight was described by writers and travellers such as Walter Scott (1771–1832), Gustave de Beaumont (1802–66), J. G. Kohl (1808–78, a German geographer and traveller, writing in 1843) and Alexis de Tocqueville (1805–59, a French traveller and political analyst, writing of his visit to Ireland in 1835). Above all, Irish landlords were exhorted to do their duty by the poor. Some did, and spent substantial sums of money to help distressed areas. Many did not.

    The Government’s reaction to the crisis was slow. Food continued to be exported from Ireland and arrangements for the importation of other foods were not effective. Rev. Dr McEvoy, parish priest of Kells, wrote in October 1845:

    On my most minute personal inspection of the potato crop in this most fertile potato-growing locale is founded my inexpressibly painful conviction that one family in twenty of the people will not have a single potato left on Christmas day next. Many are the fields I have examined and testimony the most solemn can I tender, that in the great bulk of those fields all the potatoes sizable enough to be sent to table are irreparably damaged, while for the remaining comparatively sounder fields very little hopes are entertained in consequence of the daily rapid development of the deplorable disease. With starvation at our doors, grimly staring us, vessels laden with our sole hopes of existence, our provisions, are hourly wafted from our every port. From one milling establishment I have last night seen not less than fifty dray loads of meal moving on to Drogheda, thence to go to feed the foreigner, leaving starvation and death the sure and certain fate of the toil and sweat that raised this food. For their respective inhabitants England, Holland, Scotland, Germany, are taking early the necessary precautions—getting provisions from every possible part of the globe; and I ask are Irishmen alone unworthy the sympathies of a paternal gentry or a paternal Government? Let Irishmen themselves take heed before the provisions are gone. Let those, too, who have sheep, and oxen, and haggards. Self-preservation is the first law of nature. The right of the starving to try and sustain existence is a right far and away paramount to every right that property confers. … [The Nation, 25 October 1845; repr. in P. S. O’Hegarty, A history of Ireland under the Union (London 1952) 293]

    The English did not look after the Irish and the Irish did not look after their own. It was every man for himself and by the sounds of it, it still is. Sad.

  33. How does one gain self respect if foisted with this attitude.

    Along with his Victorian themes, Kingsley also projected Victorian attitudes about race. Indeed, he once wrote to his wife, describing a visit to Ireland, “I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country. I don’t believe they are our fault. I believe there are not only many of them than of old, but they are happier, better, more comfortably fed and lodged under our rule than they ever were. But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours.”[4]

    Westward Ho!–Charles Kingsley

  34. joe hack

    There must still be a hangover of Stockholm syndrome in black rock college. Today we get murdocks mate Geldof comparing ISIS with Pearse and Co. Then I came across the above by William’s thanks for invading killing, starving and raping the Irish.

    • Geldof doesn’t know his arse from from his elbow. Total bluffer.

      • Truthist

        There is much more to Geldof than the MSM tell us.
        And, Geldof does not play with an honest deck.

      • Truthist

        Very notable about “wild child” “out-spoken” etc. Geldof is that he was very meek when he went to the special place that gets out the deckchairs & wine & eateries for to enjoy the “mowing of the lawn” on the pretext of what the special place’s controlled opposition did ;
        “By Deception so shall they make War”.

        http://www.inminds.com/article.php?id=10546

        But, Geldof is always totally disrespectful to the totally benign creed of the majority of Irish.
        Geldof is disingenuous.
        And, he has feathered his own nest with ablomb.

        Peruse the Links from the following search terms inserted into Google ;
        geldof AND the money from live aid

        https://www.google.co.th/?gws_rd=cr&ei=KwcCV6DQG46hugScjqvQDA#q=geldof+AND+the+money+from+live+aid

        Another individual on the same sectarian agenda is actor & the stupid-person’s favorite notion of an intellectual ; Stephen Fry.
        A celebrity whom RTE no doubt has paid handsomely for his interviews where he then insults the license payers.
        Have a look at what thecolemanexperience.wordpress.com has to say about the bould Stephen Fry.

  35. the English official and renowned poet Edmund Spenser wrote “They are all papists by profession but in the same so blindingly and brutishly informed that you would rather think them atheists or infidels”. In a “Brief Note on Ireland,” Spenser argued that “Great force must be the instrument but famine must be the means, for till Ireland be famished it cannot be subdued. . . There can be no conformitie of government whereis no conformitie of religion. . . There can be no sounde agreement betwene twoe equall contraries viz: the English and Irish”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment

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