August 10, 2015

Why immigration is a class issue

Posted in Sunday Business Post · 74 comments ·

Good morning from sunny, roasting hot Croatia! After the wettest and coldest July in years, can you blame me for getting out to the sun? Did you know that two weeks ago, Dublin airport’s weather station recorded a temperature of 3.9C! This turned out to be the lowest July temperature since 1942.


So yes, I am all for Tourism Ireland and shopping local, but sometimes you have to admit that nature has dealt us a poor hand in the summer and travelling for a bit of sun and sea is good for the sanity.

Travelling also reveals just how lucky we are. Last night in a bar in Dalmatia, all the locals were talking about emigration. In the past year, there has been a surge of young Croats heading to Ireland for work. The media here is full of reports about the fortunes of Croatian immigrants in Ireland.

In the local hospital, doctors told me the other day of their medical friends who have upped sticks and gone to Ireland. The local barmen also jumped on the Ryanair flight from Zadar a few months back and they are now working near the Powerscourt Centre in Dublin. These two formerly clean-shaven young lads have even grown the ubiquitous South William Street hipster beards!

Last Thursday, Croatians celebrated the 20th anniversary of their victory over the Serbs in the 1992-1995 Yugoslavian war; however, with so many young leaving the country, that victory seems a little hollow.

But it’s not just Croatia. All over eastern and central Europe, the Balkan people are on the move. Emigration and subsequent immigration is the great issue of our times.

Their route is fairly simple: it’s south to north. Hundreds of thousands are on the move. This summer, Croatia and neighbouring Serbia have become transit countries as desperate people avoid travelling by sea, as a result of the disasters of ships sinking and immigrants drowning in the Mediterranean. They are coming overland from Syria, and from further south in Africa through Croatia and Serbia to western Europe.

The figures are startling. In the first three months of this year, 185,000 people have applied for protection in the EU. The figure represents an 86 percent increase from the same period the previous year.

In total, citizens from 144 countries have sought asylum in the EU in the first quarter of 2015. And the EU wants to relocate 40,000 migrants who are now in Greece and Italy in other EU countries, obviously including Ireland.

Tragically, war is still the main driver as terrified people leave their homes seeking sanctuary. For example, 131,000 Syrians arrived in the EU in the last 12 months – and thousands of Afghans, Eritreans and Ukrainians are also on the move, heading north and west.

Here in the Balkans, just south of where I am writing, nearly 50,000 people left Kosovo from January to March of this year because there are simply no jobs in the Albanian enclave.

Hungary, to the north, is erecting a fence on the Serbian border to prevent people entering Hungarian territory. This is proving hugely popular with the Hungarian electorate and goes to the root of the problem, which is that while the political class is telling ordinary Europeans that immigrants are good for the economy and should be welcomed, ordinary people feel threatened not just economically but also culturally.

Nowhere is this more evident than in Germany. Last week, the German immigration minister underlined the strain immigration is posing in certain countries when he asked rhetorically whether “it’s not okay that Germany, Sweden, and France are taking 50 per cent of the refugees while other countries do nothing”. This comes after an alarming rise in anti-immigrant sentiment in Germany, particularly in the former East Germany.

Ironically, Greece, a country tormented by Germany over the past few months has just overtaken Italy as the country taking in most migrants. This is a country that can barely support its own population, let alone the 101,000 migrants who have arrived in Greece by sea since January.

In Britain, the Calais refugee crisis has become a political hot potato that no politician wants to touch and, all over Europe, survey after survey indicates that populations do not want more immigration, no matter what the circumstances.

But people are on the move and they are not going to stop. Think about yourself. If you and your family were from Syria what would you do?

But there’s the rub. Immigration is a class issue. Immigrants by definition compete with the poorest local people in the job market, in the housing market and for access to health and schools. This is a fact.

Economists tend to miss the central point, of immigration which is that while the economy might get workers, society gets people. Therefore the technocratic language of the economy is not able to deal with the totality of immigration and can’t deal with the fact that there are winners and losers in this game.

If you have, like me, the luxury of writing for the newspapers and working as an economist, there’s little chance that a new immigrant will take your job. If, on the other hand, I am labouring on the sites or working in a bar, there’s a serious chance that my wages and job security will be affected by new people coming into the country looking for work.

So for the relatively wealthy, immigration has been a boon. There are more taxi drivers, more cleaners, more shop assistants, more nannies; in short, the service economy, the one that services the relative wealthy, booms. But are wages in that sector booming? No.

The relatively wealthy don’t have to worry about immigrants pushing up rents because, frankly, the immigrants can’t afford to live in posh areas, so they compete for housing not with the relatively wealthy, but with the relatively poor.

It’s a similar story in schools. Immigrant kids don’t, by and large, go to private schools. They go to state schools where they compete for the state’s resources with Irish citizens.

These are the facts. Immigration is a class issue, and the richer you are, the greater the luxury you have to pontificate about immigration because you are not affected – or if you are, you are affected positively.

When the relatively poor – those who are threatened by immigrants – voice their concerns, it is far too easy for the rich to dismiss these people as “racist’ or “xenophobic”, whereas maybe they are just voicing everyday real concerns. One thing is clear: immigration is going to increase in the years ahead. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to talk about it, warts and all?

  1. Grey Fox

    Nail on the proverbial head DmcW..well done

  2. bluegalway

    Well said.

    Most economists, especially in the City, would say that immigration is good for the economy (low wages) and good for prosperity (more tax income) – but that is not the same thing as saying that it’s beneficial for our quality of life or the stability of our communities.

  3. dorn

    Perhaps the war-mongering overly militaristic nations that caused much of the collapse of states like Iraq, Syria and Libya should take a bigger responsibility in re-homing the thousands of refugees now fleeing those countries – nations like Russia, the US and the UK. Ireland didn’t take part in any of those wars – why should we have to foot the bill from the fallout?

    • Mike Lucey


      That makes a certain amount of sense. However I’m not sure that Russia, of late, should be included in the list of ‘war-mongering overly militaristic nations’. Also, it seems that Russia has taken in over 730,000 Ukrainians since the engineered coup.

    • War is fostered to deliberately destabilize the western democracies thu the advocation of large immigrations. There is no advocation of integration but the idea of multiculturalism is fostered instead. Each country becomes destabilised with cultural ghettos to local resentment and resorts to more draconian law. Overlaid on this is the doctrine of combatting terrorism with all the loss of basic freedoms this entails.

      All part of the master plan for one world government. Divide and conquer.
      Out of chaos comes order.

      All the sunshine and heat was sent this way , this summer! :)

  4. EugeneN

    The other issue is the feedback loops this causes to property. It was all of 2 years ago that Ireland’s story was one of a generational destruction in property prices, a huge number of ghost estates, no hope of recovery. Now it’s massive rent hikes, a property market with 15% arrears growing at 10% a year, families on the street. Its the rate of immigration which helped justify the prices in 2006 ( it wasn’t the primary cause then, that was credit but it was population increases which justified the prices) and then the increase in emigration which destroyed the market, and now an increase in immigration which will cause the entire thing to ignite again. Were the CB not involved we might be back to boom time prices, as it now stands an income of 100K is needed to buy a moderate 350K house in a working class northside area.

  5. Deco

    Another example of the “good room” superficiality that exists, is in respect of this aspect of public policy. The Irish establishment are killing their children’s inheritance of political office. It has already happened to FF. The LP (which is even more nepotism riddled) are next. And FG probably also due for a hit.

    Well, if the three main political parties alienate themselves from the working class, and end dynastic politics, then this is probably an unusual “benefit” of unchecked immigration.

    Current policy in most areas, is designed to rebuild the Ponzi real estate market. And the political class, and the media need an overpriced real estate market again. Because the banks need it. They would do anything to make it happen. Absolutely anything.

    They would even shoot themselves in the foot, to obey the needs of the real estate market.

    Ireland is still controlled by the FIRE economy. It still sits there like a giant gravity mass distorting everything around it.

    Finance, Institutionalism, and Real Estate.

    This complex is driven by greed, and a need to ignore the consequences of it’s greed. It is also extremely power, and as we have seen already has no tolerance for debate, discussion or anything that might force it to consider the effects it inflicts on others in society.

  6. mike flannelly

    Financial Anxiety is NOT RACISM
    People see their resources being diluted by immigration.

    People with financial anxiety and mortgage arrears who refuse short term forbearance while looking for full term sustainable restructures are labeled UNCOOPERATING

    The Financial Ombudsman has falsly labeled a sustainable long term RESTRUCTURE as forcing a poor bank into ongoing forbearance or as a joint investor. People with Financial concerns are given Legal excuses for grossly overvalued debt. People signed legal mortgage contracts in good faith. They did not expect that the lending professionals promoted by the Irish State were UNBELIEVABLY ignoring basic banking principles while making unfair gain. The contracts were sold by bankers who were professionally negligent to people who signed them in good faith. The financial ombudsman ignores the financial concerns of bank customers. CCMA cul de sac.

  7. Mike Lucey

    Could it be the case that all we have to do is listen to what Peter Sutherland advises and implement same and everything will be fine.

    ‘Peter Sutherland: Unlimited immigration into Europe from Africa is a benefit’

    That is the same Peter Sutherland that warned the Irish Government that applying a ‘haircut’ to the bondholders would forever consign Ireland to the status of financial pariah. “It simply is not an option to choose” he intoned!

    Based on the results Peter Sutherland’s past advice, would it not be sensible to do the exact opposite of what he advises?

    • bluegalway


      Peter Sutherland; a colossal pimp for big business, a senior figure at the blood-sucking Goldman Sachs and head of the ‘Steering Committee’ at the hugely insidious Bilderberg Group.

      The same Goldman Sachs that cooked the books for Greece to join the euro for a fee of 200 mln euros, and the same bank that rigged the sell-off of Royal Mail at way too low a starting share price – after it cut a deal to buy many of the shares beforehand, and then sold them at a massive profit after they jumped.

      He is no less an an enemy of the Irish State and every State in the EU. He has a few residences around the world, which are used as tax havens as much as anything else.

      When asked by British journo Peter Obourne what if the European natives rose up and resisted mass immigration, Suds licked his licks, gave a reptilian smile, and said that’s what European governments had their security forces for.

      He has long advocated that the UK join the disastrous euro.

      In 2009 in an interview with the Limerick Post about the financial collapse in the West, particularly the eurozone, he said: “”There are many commenting on the present crisis who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, which is creating a culture of despair. People forget that there are things we do exceedingly well.”

      The man wants shooting.

      • DB4545


        The problem with a comment like that bluegalway is that people who make those type of comments prefer “someone else” to do the shooting. As I’ve commented before Suds faces more danger from a heart attack or type 2 diabetes and that’s the way it should remain. The man is not worth someone spending even a single second behind bars for. There’s an interesting youtube video of Suds and Simon Coveney of FG having a nice walk around Copenhagen in between those meetings. It’s speaks volumes about whose interests our politicians really serve. Something that voters might like to reflect on when they next cast their vote.

        • Deco

          The son of Suds did not have to compete with anybody to get a job in the EU commission. FF let him in. Yet more evidence that the differences between FF and FG are purely superficial.

          I wonder were there strict application procedures, to get on the team of insiders carried along with an EU Commissioner ?

          Was there a competitive process to make the applicants try harder to make the grade ?

          The whole thing is BS.

          • jaysus

            The multimillionaire suds still collects a 150 000+ pension from our tax money for his stint as AG years ago. Should be means tested and he should be told NO MORE for you!

      • Antaine

        hear hear except for the shooting bit. Too easy. Make him live in a lower class socio economic group til he dies.

  8. DB4545


    I think you’ve covered a lot of ground that elements of the media won’t touch with a bargepole. The human dimension to this warts and all needs to see the light of day. I read a Sunday Times article a few months ago about a Syrian family of four living in appalling conditions in a tent in a refugee camp in Lebanon. The father worked as an electrician in Syria and had a comfortable lifestyle before the place descended into hell. Their circumstances were dire and the Lebanese were doing their best but Lebanon has been swamped with refugees. Again. The previous wave of refugees led to the Palestinian refugee crisis and this was a major contributing factor in the civil war in Lebanon. This is the reality when superpower foreign policy decides on regime change without thinking ten moves ahead.

    The European reality is fear and that fear is well founded. The affluent in this society can be absolutely confident that their interests will continue to be served. There will be no large waves of immigrants flooding Rathmichael,Foxrock, Sandymount, Killiney or Ballsbridge. Immigrants might visit those suburbs but only as “the help”. The children of immigrants won’t be competing for places in Blackrock or St. Gerards with the exception of the odd immigrant child genius as tokenism. Immigrant parents won’t be making millions from legal fees for tribunals and enquiries in the four courts. They’ll most likely be cleaning the toilets.

    In a link from your previous article you highlighted the angry voices from Darndale. It could also represent Ballymun,Dorset St.,Balbriggan and other poor areas. Put that mix of desperation, deprivation and large scale immigration together competing for taxpayer resources and watch what happens.But we don’t have to. We can witness some of the effects in areas of major cities in the UK, or Sweden, or Belgium, or the Netherlands, or France. Do we want banlieues developing in or around our major cities?

    Immigration has a positive role to play in Irish society. If it’s managed well specific groups can make positive contributions to this society as some have done already. And if that’s how our society wants to develop then fine. However if a minority of well heeled vested interests have a different agenda then let’s start by building social housing for our new immigrants in Westminster Lawns, Vico Road and Orwell Park. We can get an indication of the possibility of that happening by counting the number of social housing projects or halting sites located in those areas at present. Look, I see a pig flying over a blue moon.


    • bluegalway

      there was a famous British economist, and author of the book Exodus, a study on immigration, on BBC’s Newsnight recently – Sir Paul Collier.
      Has has made the liberal case against mass immigration
      For the past 10 years he, and a few other academics, have made a study of mass immigration.
      He happens to be pro-EU and a self-confessed liberal, but says that his studies have taught him that mass immigration is always destructive.
      He said there are 3 stages.

      1) Loss of generosity; welfare and benefits get reduced as the native people don’t want to pay for payments to people who are not their own. We’re seeing that in the UK, France, Belgium, Spain and Italy.
      It is fair to say that the US is more diverse than the UK, but it is also fair to say that the UK is much more generous in terms of welfare and benefits. That is changing in the UK, however.

      Stage 2) Loss of co-operation; different groups turn inward and prefer segregation, living among their own. There is less work, money and effort put into integration and self-help programmes, with people concentrating on their own individual ethnic groups. As Collier said, there is pretty solid science behind this, looking at countries in different continents.

      3) The last stage is most worrying; confrontational societies. As sure as night follows day this happens. Different ethnic/cultural groups divide into groups and oppose each other, often violently. In other words, tribal warfare. That has happened right across west/central/east Africa, parts of North Africa, and to a lesser extent parts of Asia.

      He suggested one effective tool to stop that happening.
      Make it economically tough for people who want to arrive, in making them pay tax for several years before being entitled to welfare and benefits, and things such as social housing.
      It does and can work as a deterrent to economic migrants intent only on unskilled, low paid work.

      First, though, you need a strong government.
      Do you see one?

      • Mike Lucey

        Does anyone think that the mass upheavals in North Africa and the Middle East might all be ‘planned’ by the so called NWO elite?

        A PROBLEM has been created which directly effects ordinary EU citizens. While wars in Africa and The Middle East did not really effect the ordinary man other than oil price hickups, mass migration does! Was a reason for these wars? I really can’t see too many other reasons.

        Strong REACTION is coming from the citizens. The basic human instinct of self preservation is now coming into play as intended.

        The SOLUTION is all neatly packaged and tied up with silk ribbons ready for implementation. Total central governance controlled by the elite.

        The COST will be personal freedom and the vast majority will gladly pay this price. Get ready to have your micro ID capsule injected into your arms that will allow for efficient robotic control.

      • Deco

        Collier’s points are valid.

        I see a government that is strong for the IFSC, and the Bank bondholders – and completely useless for the people.

        We need keep putting political parties in the bin, until they learn to obey the public, and not the lobbyists.

    • joe sod

      I think the sheer scale of migration into europe will shatter many liberal attitudes to emmigration and multiculturism that have held sway since the sixties. I think deep down even the most liberal are very worried about this issue. However to confront it they will have to confront some long held liberal ideas. I think Sweden is facing this crisis of identity now. Logic would say that it has to close down its over generous welfare state. We see that migrants from Syria are leaving Turkey en masse to get into Greece and the EU. Therefore they want to get to the countries that will give them the best future not just to be safe as is the case in Turkey. Therefore as harsh as it may sound we can only allow these people access only the basics of safety, food and shelter in order to control the flow of people in. I think the big countries like Germany, France and UK will come around to this viewpoint.

  9. michaelcoughlan

    “This comes after an alarming rise in anti-immigrant sentiment in Germany, particularly in the former East Germany”

    So much for the socialist fuc&%ng utopia!


  10. Migrants are produced by wars and the destruction caused.
    The Migrants from the war torn areas are “heading from south to North” looking for security and freedom.

    In my opinion they are heading to the wrong place. The world economy is breaking down and the peoples better able to survive will be those used to scratching for a living in the underdeveloped countries of Eastern Europe and South America, not Europe or North America.

    The “developed ” counties are overdeveloped living on the previously accumulated wealth and have forgotten how to produce. I still see here people allowing fruit of trees to rot on the ground. Easier to go to the supermarket.

    The day is coming soon where the backyard garden will be in vogue. What will you eat when the supermarket no longer delivers. Ireland should be aware . Only 4-5 generations back many were trying to survive on grass.

    Most western economies are trying to survive on a service industry with the financial services industry playing margin to the hilt. It is down from here and the immigrants will find no ready welcome.

    • Pedro Nunez

      Absolutely and like in the famine we Irish won’t be able to feed ourselves by the best fishing waters around us because the sleeveenites have sold off all our quota for bovine methane to fuel the ‘FIRE economy’.

      As an editorial said in the Telegraph, why are we funding the traffickers, just let the LE Eithne, Aoife HMS Bulwark, Italian navys collect the money and act as ferries across the Med.

      We’re leaving no moral hazard for the traffickers and funding their amoral operations, ruin their business and see what happens.
      Legalise cannibas too and cut out the drug peddlers and pushers.

      Sultan Suds for head of the new Ottoman Caliphate.

  11. SMOKEY

    Personally, being relatively wealthy, I hate the bastards. I think they should have to leave their culture, particularly the filthy head wraps and stinking veils, behind. Why are they here if they want to keep that throwback stone age garbage in their lives?
    Should be able to speak the local language with proficiency, and no dole or govt assistance for the first 5 years after arrival. If they are found on the side of the road without papers, dumped onto a boat and sent back immediately. AND most importantly, this little Island should have zero tolerance for employers who employ them without proper documentation, which should be renewed and robust.
    Simon Coveny should have to take 20 or so of them onto his farm for the first 11 months and report back to us on how he gets on. And little Leo, Im so Gay Varadkar should do LBGT sensitivity studies with them for the first 6 weeks to show a real commitment against racism. That piece of work Franny Fitz would take on the moms without husbands and a few dozen of their little gifts and keep them in her garage for a year or so, she is into “different types of families” so this would be a natural for her.
    This would sort it out fairly quickly. In short, we dont need this human offal in Ireland.

  12. [...] Blog David McWilliams – Irland. In vielen Ländern Europas lehnen Teile der Bevölkerung den Zuzug von Flüchtlingen ab. Dass sich untere Gesellschaftsschichten von Zuwanderern bedroht fühlen, ist verständlich, meint der Ökonom David McWilliams in seinem Blog: “Immigration ist ein Schichtenproblem. Zuwanderer konkurrieren mit den Ärmsten unter der lokalen Bevölkerung um Zugang zum Arbeitsmarkt, zum Immobilienmarkt und zum Gesundheits- sowie Schulsystem. Das ist eine Tatsache. Ökonomen erkennen oft nicht den zentralen Punkt beim Thema Zuwanderung: Die Wirtschaft erhält vielleicht Arbeitskräfte, doch die Gesellschaft bekommt Menschen. … Wenn die vergleichsweise Bedürftigen, die von Immigranten bedroht sind, ihre Sorgen artikulieren, ist es für die Reichen nur allzu leicht, diese Menschen als ‘Rassisten’ oder ‘Ausländerfeinde’ zu bezeichnen. Dabei äußern sie vielleicht nur echte Probleme des täglichen Lebens.” (10.08.2015) +++ [...]


    The great unspoken fact is that in 2004, Ireland had net immigration of 120,000 people, a figure only surpassed once in the UK ( 1962) pre 2000. Now you know why house prices saw a standard 3 bed house in Clontarf fetch a monthly rental of 2.5k in 2007.
    Rents will reach that figure again within 12 months. The min wage is a joke, interns are hired @ € 90 per week, no chance of Irish employers matching the Uk living wage of £ 9 per hour. Are Irish adults the oldest on the planet to leave their parents homes ? If it wasn’t for emigration- yes!

    • DB4545


      I couldn’t agree more and that’s why I said politicians rather than single out a specific party. The main parties are up to their necks in it with lobbyists. I hope people have to sense to vote anyone except mainstream parties and I include SF in that grouping. Could Independents really do any more damage than the mainstream parties?These lobbyists are subversives in the sense that their intent is to subvert undermine and bypass democratic institutions of the State.

      Look at what’s going on around Europe from Kos to Calais to Sweden. The European mood is clearly that people have had enough. The lobbyists are intent on forcing large scale immigration on Europeans. Two asylum seekers were arrested in connection with the murders in Sweden. The Swedish media can’t even accurately report that two of its Citizens have been murdered or the circumstances,nationality,race or religious affiliation of those accused. As someone stated on another site Swedish media can only report that there may be a sale in the Ikea kitchenware department due to unforeseen demand.

      We’ve had cases in Ireland in the recent past where a baby was virtually butchered during a circumcision (medically unsupervised naturally) and died. The Judge instructed the Jury that they “could not judge the actions of the accused by the standards of Western societies”. So what standards do we hold people accountable to? Tribal traditions in sub-Saharan Africa?

      This begs the question what screening processes are in place to prevent these people walking the streets of European cities on arrival? We have little information regarding potential previous criminal history, terrorist activities, involvement in war crimes or people trafficking etc. It seems that you can behead people on the streets of London, murder journalists and policemen in Paris,stab people in Department stores in Sweden and it falls of the media spotlight within weeks. This is election dynamite in Europe but clearly vested interests are intent on pushing this agenda ahead. Whose interests are being served?

      • coldblow

        By a bizarre coincidence I spent half an hour yesterday morning listening on-line to the previous day’s Swedish news on Sveriges Radio, the P1 Morgon programme. This would have been the first full day after the murder so you would have expected it to be the lead item. In fact, that was a fire in Gothenburg. Then they spoke about calls by educationalists for Swedish teachers to have language training so that they can deal with the large number of children who can’t speak their language. Then they discussed the propensity of bipolar psychiatric patients to commit suicide. Then there was a lengthy report on an arson attack on a home for asylum seekers.

        After reading your comment I had another listen. The web page mentions IKEA all right but I skimmed through the 2 hour (or so) recording and finally found the story buried towards the end. They were looking to see if there was a link between the killers and the victims and speculation about whether the murder weapon had been taken from the store itself.

        • DB4545

          If the odd news item falls off the shelf it could be considered a coincidence.When it’s removed wholesale or in a systemic way it could be argued that an agenda or ageement is in place.News is what someone doesn’t want you to know everything else is PR or advertising.

  14. Grzegorz Kolodziej


    I am reading your comments and while I agree with most of them, I think that only bluegalway and dorn have penetrated to the roots of the problem with immigration. Mass immigration cannot be the core of the problem since Australia, Canada or the US have much higher percentage of immigrants (in some cases 3 times as high) as Ireland or the UK and mass immigration did not stop them countries being the richest in the world (in fact they occupied higher places in GDP per capita ratings when they had much more open-door policy). So that cannot be the source of the problem.

    But we do have a problem with immigrants (and not only in Ireland, in Eastern Europe too – I am glad David has noticed that).

    So what’s the problem?

    I’ll start with bluegalway: “the effective tool to stop that happening. Make it economically tough for people who want to arrive, in making them pay tax for several years before being entitled to welfare and benefits, and things such as social housing”.


    What bluegalway is saying boils down to this: make all immigrants to Ireland enter on the same conditions as Eastern (and Western) Europeans. Yesterday I red a moving story about a person who made 6,000k to find himself in Ireland illegally only to be badly treated by prison inmates while he was waiting for deportation. Eventually all ended up well, with the minister allowing him to stay, him being given an accommodation and a weekly allowance of 20 euro. I would rejoice, except that article has a seeded some doubt which had been germinating in my mind – hold on, I was not given free accommodation or free food, neither here nor in Britain; let alone 20 euro allowance. I had to pay upfront for my accommodation, food and public transport; in other words I had to pay indirect taxes and pump some money to the Irish economy before I even started earning something (and paying direct and indirect taxes). If I had not found a job, I would have been gone, like my compatriots (bear in mind that only half of Poles who obtained PPS numbers had stayed). What’s more, I emigrated to the UK before the EU enlargement and my employer had to prove that he could not find any local person to do my job before I could obtain my work permit from Home Office (upon paying them a hefty amount of a few hundred pounds).

    So that’s one thing – make Europe a 19th century US: everyone should be able to enter, but everyone would have to maintain himself upon their arrival.

    Second thing – in June alone 700 illegal migrants (almost all of them from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh) have entered Ireland escaping at the expiration of their one-year visas to Britain. Why is that? Because the word on the internet has it that chances of being detected in Ireland are much lower than in the UK. I have been repeatedly saying on this blog that maybe you people should demand a proper (properly organized, properly paid and with proper guns) police force that would occupy itself with other things than tapping Irish citizens phone calls on a whim. Same goes for G2 – intelligence service with completely bogus recruitment procedures (anyone who tried to apply for a job in MI6 would agree with me) which makes me doubt that they are really getting crème de la crème, of which even TD’s have not even a control of – in most countries they do not – but even a way of knowing what the money is being spent for?!

    Third thing – as dorn has pointed out, perhaps the war-mongering overly militaristic nations should take a bigger responsibility in re-homing the thousands of refugees? Who created the Kosovo enclave? Was it Albanians or Serbs? No, it was the Americans – people seem to forget that mass escape from Kosovo started as a result of NATO bombings, which has triggered Serbs atrocities (they think NATO bombings were to protect the Albanians from the Serbs). Who triggered the first ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia? Germany, encouraging Croatia to drive out Serbs from their homes in order to stop the Hexagonale initiative and drag Eastern Europe to the EU. Who is the least generous nation when it comes to accepting refugees? Why, the United States of America.

    As to Mike Lucey’s comment that Russia has taken in over 730,000 Ukrainians, I advise you to use, from time to time, other sources than RT: Russia, having rigged the referendum in Crimea and after sending armed forces to carve up the Ukrainian territory (which they unofficially proposed Poland to take part in, but Poland refused) using Ukraine’s weakness due to US and Germany installing their puppet government in Kiev, expects the Ukraine to still pay pensions and supply energy to most of the elderly from those 730,000 Ukrainians; besides, Russia has first lied about the true results of the Crimean referendum (I attached a link in the past, so I won’t repeat myself), then it lied about Russian separatists being supported by the Russian army, and now it is lying about the number of dead Russian soldiers. Incidentally, most of the population on the territories annexed by Russia are disappointed, but you won’t hear that on RT (which does mean that RT is a worse station than CNN for it is better and that the US and Germany are less aggressive than Russia, for they are more).

    David writes:

    “Immigrants by definition compete with the poorest local people in the job market, in the housing market and for access to health and schools. This is a fact.”

    Yes David, but it also a fact that in the 1950s you could buy a house in the US for 2.2 of your annual income and now it would cost you 10 times your annual income (and far less people have a income to buy a house now than in the US). I believe that figures would be not much different in Ireland (does anyone know the figures?), so there must be some factor for the property bubble other than immigrants and my guess is that it is central banking distorting interest rates and making it better to invest in property than in starting your own business or even saving that money.

    To finish it all, a few of interesting statistics about the Poles as immigrants in Europe (I am using data from a research paper ordered by the biggest recruitment company in Poland, Work Serice).

    Most Polish immigrants live in the UK (outside Europe we cannot forget about the 10,000,000 in the US): 650,000. Then Germany (560,000), Ireland (115,000), Holland (103,000) and Norway (71,000). 63% of immigrants are below 35; 71% from small towns and villages. All in all Polish immigrant sent home 43bn euro (from all European countries) in total (since 2004 that is). The peak year was 2007 (5bn) – I wonder what the data is for the Irish immigrants. The amount of money sent to Poland has been shrinking year by year (it is now a little over 2bn euro). The biggest decline was seen in Poles in Ireland: Ireland is an exception among other European countries in that not only Polish immigrants spend more money here compared to Poles in any other EU country, but Ireland has also witnessed a phenomena of re-uniting immigrant families by the immigrants grandparents emigrating to Ireland to look after their kids and bringing their Polish pension with them (I do not want to be even more controversial than David, but considering that Ireland does not actually offer better wages than the UK – a secretary job with two foreign languages which would earn euro 24k in 2006 in Dublin would have got up to pounds 35k in London, while at the same time it is infinitely easier to get housing benefits in England than in Ireland (unless you are a single mother on methadone) – I wonder to what extent this phenomena of more Poles wanting to bring up their kids in Ireland rather than Germany or the UK has to do with the fact that most of the population in Ireland is predominantly Caucasian and non-Muslim…).,Poles-in-UK-plan-mass-blood-donation-to-offset-Polish-workers-strike

    Another hot potato is the ever growing anti-Irish resentment in Australia – will David to catch it?

    P.S. I was going to write about one more thing, but SMOKEY has beat me to it by writing “little Leo, Im so Gay Varadkar should do LBGT sensitivity studies with them for the first 6 weeks to show a real commitment against racism.”

    And one more thing: Israel pays $3,500 for the asylum seekers to fly to Europe. I slowly start thinking that the further from Europe you were born, the softer landing you’ll have as an immigrant…

    P.S.2. SLICKMICK – would “The min wage is a joke, interns are hired @ € 90 per week, no chance of Irish employers matching the Uk living wage of £ 9 per hour” not lead you to the conclusion that the minimum wage should be abolished?

    Germany did very well with no minimum wage, while in Ireland everyone is obliged to apply the minimum wage legislation apart from the state, that can hire interns for 208 euro a week (on community schemes) rather than paying them at least 300 euro they would get in free market conditions (which would also result in food being 4 times cheaper if we abolished CAP) thus fucking up the chances of other workers finding a job?

    Minimum wage legislation is great for big business and employment statistics; it does no good for Irish students or young grads and Paddy who wants to open a new pub (Paddy would save his 75,000 on his license in free market conditions – how can he pay more if he had to cough up so much for the license on upwards only rent regulation?)

    “The great unspoken fact is that in 2004, Ireland had net immigration of 120,000 people” – the REAL great unspoken fact is that Ireland has population density lower than Ethiopia and Uzbekistan, which drives all costs, is detrimental to competition and it resulted in locking people up in commuter belts with the applause of trade unions. This fact is so unspoken and so unknown that as far as I know, I am the only person in Ireland ever saying that.


      Reuters says there are 1 million Ukrainian refugees in Russia.

      I agree that the minimum wage is counter productive and denies starter jobs to Youth and untrained people and prevents people starting their fledgling business enterprise.

      I agree that the current refugee problem is caused largely by bombing campaigns of NATO and their unique method of spreading democracy.

      Lastly. Wars have to be paid for. It is established that both Germany and Britain went off the gold standard of restrictive currency to an unbacked fiat currency that allowed people to be paid to produce arms and munitions to fight the War, WW1. Going back, Lincoln used fiat script to fund and pay for the civil war.

      All Wars these days are funded the same way. Unlimited credit from central bankers funds the war machine. Nato liberation bombing and support of rebel factions not to mention Bin Laden and Al Qaeda etc etc. have given us the mayhem that causes millions and millions of refugees. Basically ISIS is a US/NATO creation too. If I was just a casual observer I would think that intelligent people operate these schemes and so the results, being predictable, must be deliberate. We are being led astray by not acknowledging this possibility.

      Sorry, David, to come back to the central banking model of unlimited credit but it is the basic cause of all the ills besetting us including the human devastation you just accounted.

    • jaysus

      Typical Pole to blame everything on the Russians. About time you lot got over the past conflict with Russia. Your countries grovelling to the US empire is stomach churing. Is Poland too afraid to stand on its own two feet?

  15. coldblow

    There are no easy answers here. Does anyone remember that lady from Clare, with an Irish (Gaelic) name, who spoke out about immigration going on for 20 years ago? I tried searching on the web to see if she was as bad as they made her out to be, but without any success. (I remember being at a ceilí in the Teachers’ Club when they breathlessly announced the election of Moosajee Bhamjee in Clare and everyone cheered.)A bit later John Waters spoke about it once or twice but met with the usual ideological response. I remember him in one column writing about his arguments about immigration limits (I think his opponents – ie all ‘right thinking’ people – simply avoiding the issue) and him concluding in exasperation: all right, where do we set the maximum anmnual limit – between 1 and 500,000?

    As I recall there was (and still is) a general refusal to look at the problem. And it still hasn’t really changed: I read an Irish newspaper article over the last couple of days (I can’t lay my hand on it) which spoke largely of economic migration but concluded that we are bound by international or European law (the latter being in fact our law, more so than the legislation passed by the county councillors in the Dáil) to look after refugees from war or where their safety is in danger.

    The reason we have had no discussion is that all elements in the politically correct stew (de facto universal national and international principles) are mutually dependant. If you look at immigration then you have to examine everything else too, and that will never happen. It is a sign that the times are changing that David, an extravert, feels able to to write an article like this. The trouble with political correctness is that it is new, untested and fundamentally self-contradictory creed. It has successfully supplanted the earlier ethical system for a variety of reasons, many of which are perhaps only dimly understood yet (though they will definitely include the disaster of WW1 in undermining Christianity and the rise of scientific materialism), though I am prepared to concede that genuine concern for others was in the mix (somewhere). As I have said before, it is largely a matter of group psychology. The danger is that when our current system, which is based on hot air, fails to address the growing list of problems, which include immigration there will be nothing to fall back on and who knows what might happen. This is assuming it does fail: it might yet prove the critics wrong and succeed, but I doubt it.

    We are bound by EU rules to accept free movement of people, so that is a major problem. I suppose our government need not worry too much how to address this issue as they will surely fall in with whatever Britain does.

    The attached article is most interesting:

    The Labour Party in Britain wanted to open the gates to unprecedented mass immigration to ‘rub the Right’s noses in it’, in other words to create a multicultural society, an irreversible move which would make it impossible to defend traditional conservative values. Of course, they didn’t want to let the public know about this policy as they would lose voters.

    The big worry has to be what happens if and when the economy here collapses. Welfare will be cut drastically across the board.

    By the way, what happens to asylum seekers once they arrive? Are any of them ever repatriated? How would they know where to send them back to, or that they would be allowed back in? I guess this is deliberately fudged so that nobody really knows the story. I wonder if those working in the area have given up the fight and just go with the flow.

    Those with conservative instincts (be they Christian or not) will have foreseen this long ago.

    I also agree with those who have pointed out that the West which started, or aggravated, the wars which led to the refugee crisis must take a lot of the blame. It wasn’t just cynical but actually stupid, especially in Iraq, Libya and Syria (where they have swapped sides over the last year – remember they were gung ho to bomb Assad over that chemical weapons put-up job last year). But I guess the economic migrants far outnumber them. Still nobody knows, nobody knows how to find out, or to do much else either.

    The children have been in charge for a long time now and they have really messed things up. It is like being governed by the Students Union.

    • Good summery except at the end where I disagree we are governed by children. We are governed by psychophants who follow the dictums they are indoctrinated with. All is deliberately engineered in quest of the mayhem out of which will come a super NATO or UN or One world government.

      It is a power grab plain and simple.

      • Please respell sycophants.

      • coldblow

        I was probably thinking subliminaly of the Children’s Crusade, of which I am reminded when I look at what was done recently in Syria and Libya.

        I don’t know. There are conspiracies and power grabs and so on, but I think stupidity is a much more important factor. Remember what that ex-British gov. adviser, Cunningham, said a few months ago: you see govt ministers and officials running around like headliess chickens; it’s like in a film where you think behind that door all the good guys are sitting (the people who know what they are doing) “but there is no door”.

        Accoring to my grand psychological theory (work in progress) they do it because they do it. Little other explanation is required.

        • coldblow

          There is a strong relation between the stupidity I mention here and other forms of group stupidity, like the recent allegations against Ted Heath. It is as bone-headedly predictable as the worst of the soaps. Who is the next one. Well, let’s tick off those who are publicly celibate and possibly therefore perverts (Cliff Richard, Heath), then those who had particularly ugly Spitting Image puppets (Leon Brittan). Oh, and then the fat geezers (Cyril Smith). I’d predict the next one (it should be easy enough) only that would give the morons ideas. The journalist Jorge Van Krieken was outspoken in his criticism of police methods in the notorious Casa Pia witchhunt in Portugal. They presented witnesses with ‘albums’ of photographs where suspects were mixed in with photographs of famous people, such as the deputy leader of the Portuguese Socialist Party. What happened was that some of these VIPs (‘os poderosos’) got dragged into it. the first edition of the album had 30 faces, the second 84 and the third 127. Journalists critical of the investigation also found themselves included. Van Krieken himself was no. 98 and he counts himself lucky that he was only dragged in at a late stage in the investigation.

          • coldblow

            Finally (and why not?) a very good example of mass stupidity was provided by the public mood, suitably stoked up and directed, before and immediately after the May referendum here. Like the Princess Di weep-fest this was a (very predictable) joy-hyperbole-fest. When they look back on this in years to come (if they look back, if they even remember it) they will probably scratch their heads and ask what that was all about.

          • Go on, predict the next one for us please coldblow – would be interesting if it came true.

          • coldblow

            Adam, I wouldn’t risk it for the reasons stated. Coronation St has had 3 court cases that I can remember, all ending in acquittal. It’s years since I saw Emmerdale.

            He would be white, male, old or dead, possibly with unusual looks (think of some veteran comedians, gone or on the way), the kind that people would say later: ‘You could tell he was a paedophile just by looking at him’. Possibly a politician.

            They would love to rope the British Royal Family into it, but there was already the recent smear claims from that American woman against one of them. Tory would be most likely but any politician with unusual looks, views or lifestyle (that is, unusual in the eyes of tatooed wastrels) is at risk.

            No women, except possibly as accessories in the COVER UP CONSPIRACY. I am reminded of that book, Stupid White Men. I threw it out after a few pages but regret that now.

            Footballers are also a possibility, but they have their own pre-assigned crime category: rape (however that is defined).

            However, he will definitely have been well-known. It is a trade off between getting the most famous people possible (for the frisson) and not pushing people’s credibility beyond the limit (already stretched into the realm of the ridiculous).

            You might recall the pleased reaction of many to the news that the Inspector Clouseaus of the Porguese Police (assissted by British forensic ‘teams’) had made the parents official suspects in the Madeline McCann case.

        • No doubt there is stupidity in the general decisions to exercise the implementation of democracy with a bombing campaign.

          The people who designed the central bank strategy of the control of all the nations of the worlds money supply are not stupid.

          They provide the where with all to conduct the wars. They use the money to set up foundations to educate the brightest and best and to put them in positions of power. These minds are controlled by the Matrix , to use that expression. In fact it would seem to be that the higher the IQ the easier they are to propagandize. (There must be something wrong with this metric of measurement).

          Policies are announced and followed while the general electorate is not consulted. When was the last time you were asked if you wanted to bomb Syria, ISIS, Iraq etc.

          The the saying is. The only thing to allow evil to persist is for good men to do nothing. It is time we all got off our arse and told the governments that supposedly govern for the benefit of the people, that we do not want it anymore.

          Stop the bombing, stop the warfare. Stop the campaign against terrorism. That may well stop the requirement of millions of displaced to have to emigrate to anywhere.

          Write your local rep and write the papers. We have had enough. In the meantime protect yourself as best you can from the actions of the “stupid” politicians you have elected.

  16. DB4545


    You’ve covered a lot of ground there Grzegorz so I’ll try to wrap it around one issue and that’s culture. There seems to be no desire or demand on “New Europeans” to assimilate to European cultural norms. They want to transplant their cultural norms and traditions intact. These are the same traditions that helped their societies become economic and religious basketcases yet they’d now like to impose this “culture” on Europeans. Mass immigration to the Americas and Australia/NZ meant a break from the past and assimilation. That break with tradition is what made it so successful. Immigrants want all the benefits that Europe offers but won’t acknowledge the failings/shortcomings of their own societies.

    I’ve mentioned here before that we have light touch policing and that’s the way most people seem to like it. Even during the insanity of the “troubles” uniformed Gardai and uniformed British police forces (NI excepted) were never routinely armed. That’s the way most people in these Islands like their police services to operate. I run hot and cold on this issue given what Gardai have to face on a daily basis but paramilitary style gendarmaries for the moment are alien to these Islands. An armed police service will be partly a consequence of some EU States having Texan style firearm laws and open borders. There is real value in the soft skills that the Gardai deploy in most circumstances.

    In essence the message immigrants need to hear and understand is adapt to our values and culture on our terms not yours or f**k off back to the paradise you came from.

    • Pedro Nunez

      That’s what we were told when we came out of Uni in 1989, if you don’t have a job emigrate and get one or if you stay you keep stum and play the game and if you don’t like it the ‘f**k off elsewhere!

      No discrimination in that, same deal to all; nativists and the new irish (except for the insiders or the ‘extractive elite’ as harvard historian Neil ferguson calls them),

      • Grzegorz Kolodziej

        ” if you stay you keep stum and play the game and if you don’t like it the ‘f**k off elsewhere!

        No discrimination in that, same deal to all; nativists and the new irish (except for the insiders or the ‘extractive elite’ as harvard historian Neil ferguson calls them),”

        I agree to an extent; clearly though the Irish as immigrants do not stick to that principle, otherwise the anti-Irish resentment would not be growing in Australia, California, etc.

        Where you stand depends on where you sit…

        • Pedro Nunez

          Not sure I agree with you, most Irish folk certainly to UK, US and Canada historically bought into the creation myth of those countries (perhaps less so in UK where they suppressed their nationality in light of the political conflict). That’s why Irish rose to top in these countries by wearing the ‘green barbour’ or footie jersey rather than local county GAA colour they insist in going about with now.

          My point was ‘langue dans la joue’ that we faced the same deal too in the late 1980′s.
          Actually like “(Poles i.e. came with the English as the first settlers (they had been recruited as the skilled artisans) on the Mayflower in 1607)”, the Irish emigrated long before the famine, many to the Carribean to manage plantations and sadly participated in slavery or were slaves or indentured servants themselves, a great, great granduncle founded the town that became Iowa city in 1836.

          Niall Ferguson’s War of the Worlds book rightly (in my view) challenges westerners on how vulnerable our freedom is, given our stagnating populations and legally encouraged migration by elites like ‘Sultan Suds’ to pay our pensions and welfare states.

          Can’t imagine this is not concerning Poland too? Are our institutions up to the level of ‘assimilation’ that’s required?

    • Grzegorz Kolodziej


      I mostly agree with your reasoning, with few exceptions, however. I thought the most clear way would be go point by point:

      1. There seems to be no desire or demand on “New Europeans” to assimilate to European cultural norms.

      Define “New Europeans”.

      1.1. If you mean the outside Europe immigration, I think that would be too much of a generalization. If we look at the Asian immigrants to Ireland, I suppose I would agree they tend to keep to themselves. However, there is one factor you totally forgot – some of them have kids and their kids assimilate through schools. Besides, I do not think they are likely to cause much trouble in the future (maybe I am wrong). Historically that was not the case, and I think Ireland should use the Chinese diaspora to put its leg through the Chinese-market door.
      1.2. If you mean the African and Middle East immigration, I think that sadly you have a point; however, that should be divided into radical-Muslim and purely economic immigration. The radical Muslim immigration is, of course, also purely economic, but what differs it from the rest is the potential for causing civil unrest, as in Britain or France. My remarks about the need for the proper police force should be looked at in view of the growing wave of refugees.

      Make no mistake, I neither prefer nor would like to see Gardaí parading with machine guns on O’Connell St (except at some places, like the airports). It’s hard to disagree with you that “paramilitary style gendarmaries for the moment are alien to these Islands”. One of the downsides of having such police force is that police is largely hated where that is the case.

      “There is real value in the soft skills that the Gardai deploy in most circumstances.” – I shared accommodation with a young Garda officer in the past, so I do not need to be convinced about that; neither I think that out of all public sector workers these are the ones who are overpaid. But there must be something in between the old PSNI style police in armed vehicles and 6 armed Garda detectives serving the city of one million, including the nasty part of the new immigration.

      Like I said, one of the reasons we had those asylum seekers invading Ireland is because Ireland is perceived as an easy-touch.

      All I am saying is this: there is this refugee crisis we are all talking about and ok, let’s have a relaxed, under-armed and in some cases complacent police force: give me An Garda Síochána and the Russian police and I will choose Garda Síochána 9 times out of 10 (and 10 out of 10 times in normal conditions), except for the refugee crisis. Last but not least, I wonder if you know where are the Swiss keeping their refugees: in stifling atomic shelters; yes, it is not nice, but it limits the asylum applications in Switzerland. Again, it’s not like I am totally against asylum seekers – however, what we saw this year is something that Europe (let alone Ireland) will not be able to cope, and I am only afraid that if we – all European countries – do not come up with some effective X-raying of the potential terrorists and quick deportation procedures, even the liberal Ireland may see Patrion Act style totalitarian legislation being imposed.
      1.3. If by “New Europeans” you mean Eastern Europeans (which I do not think you do), this would be too daft a statement for me to even comment on it. It would go against David’s opinion that Ireland does not actually belong to the European culture (with all positive consequences of that Anglo-Saxon affiliation), with which I actually agree.

      2. “Mass immigration to the Americas and Australia/NZ meant a break from the past and assimilation. That break with tradition is what made it so successful.”

      I am sorry, but that’s just poppycock. Up to the 20th century no assimilation in America, because there was nothing to assimilate to. Far from breaking from their traditions, the immigrants were implementing their own traditions (transplanting them, as you say) and that’s how America was created; but no group of immigrants (except for radical Muslims and Gypsies) can transplant them intact to any country for the simple reason, which I have already mentioned, that the immigrants have kids and the kids are born or brought up in their new countries, so how can they have their cultural norms intact.

      The US history tells us that the group of immigrants who had most trouble to assimilate were the Irish – I would like to refer you to David’s “Generation Game”, where you would read about the Irish committing nearly 10 times more crimes than Germans, totally screwing up the job market (i.e., halving some of the wages or ousting the Black workers) or Irish women having kids with Black men just to cosy up their way in their new environment. It even led to the biggest riot in the 19th century US, if we exclude the Civil War of course. I would also like to remind you that contrary to a popular opinion, the Irish were the latest group of immigrants to come to America (Poles i.e. came with the English as the first settlers (they had been recruited as the skilled artisans) on the Mayflower in 1607 (that’s if we exclude the Jan of Kolno reaching Delaware in 1475, but he was not the first either). They organized the first strike in America, which resulted in the state of Virginia deciding that “Upon some dispute of the Polonian residents in Virginia it was now agreed that they shall be enfranchised and made as free as any inhabitant there whatsoever. (According to the Court Book of the Virginia Company of London on July 31, 1619)”.

      Did those teething troubles prevent the Irish from making their way in the US? Not at all; the Irish story of immigration to the US is a story of a great success and being initially skilled in drunken criminal behaviour did not prevent the Irish in making an enormously positive contribution to the US (I’ll just name a few which intrigued me the most:
      - Industrial giant Henry Ford was the son of Irish Immigrants who fled
      “The Great Hunger.” (and who epitomizes America more than Ford)
      - The most celebrated regiment in the US Civil War was the legendary “Irish Brigade” led by T.F. Meagher
      - America’s first great playwright was Eugene O’Neill
      - John Philip Holland, from Clare, invented the submarine and it was commissioned in 1900 by the US Navy.
      - Harry Ferguson invented the modern tractor
      - Thirty percent of the top CEO’s in American in 2009 were Irish or of Irish decent

      So as you can see, even extremely rowdy behaviour does not prevent immigrants from contributing positively to the culture of their new homelands. This brings me to your next point: assimilation.

      I will only speak for myself (as your opinions on assimilation reflect your views), so I do not know to what extent my opinion is representative (for the Polish community). In my opinion Ireland did not make one mistake that other countries made: it did not create the ghetto culture. Most Irish people have some experience with immigration (even if it’s only temporary, on working or student visas) and Irish culture is inclusive, not exclusive in general. This will facilitate the assimilation (btw, it is not true that the kids of immigrants compete at schools mainly with the so called working class – last year’s best student in the UK is Polish, born in Poland).

      So I would generally agree with you that all immigrants in Ireland should assimilate to a large extent, adapt to indigenous values and culture and f..k off back to their countries if they do not. But adaptation is not total assimilation; adaptation is just this – adaptation.

      If all immigrants were to assimilate 100% the logical conclusion would be that they have nothing to contribute from their own culture which may enrich the indigenous culture. Of course, you may agree with that, but even the Irish (let alone American or Australian, with their highest mountain named after a Pole) history belies that statement substantially:

      Not to mention the origins of the beloved take-away in Ireland. By the way, I do not think that many (if any) people in Ireland know that the Irish had also been emigrating to Poland and they made a positive contribution (Bernard Connor, who was a personal doctor for what some Poles consider to be the greatest Polish king, Jan Sobieski the Third, wrote even a 700-page long history of Poland, his biographer wrote that “startled the scientific orthodoxy of his time almost as thoroughly as did Charles Darwin”; he was the first to describe Ankylosing spondylitis – amazingly he forgot to give it a name).

      So I would say: 90% assimilation and 10% transplantation.

      Of course, it’s a different story altogether if that transplantation takes a form of unacceptable public behaviour or conscious and willing ghettoization (but even those immigrants who go along that path of locking themselves up in ethnic ghettos have kids who do not follow them as an example; generally the pattern in all immigrants to the States is similar among all European nations: first generation – troubles with assimilation; second generation – full assimilation, uprooting; third and further generations – looking for their cultural roots.

      “In essence the message immigrants need to hear and understand is adapt to our values and culture on our terms not yours or f**k off back to the paradise you came from.”

      Did you try to convince them guys? irish-students-told-no-irish-need-apply-to-chicago-for-summer-2014-234950371-237791091.html

      You won’t see much of that behaviour among Poles in Ireland (except for the football hooligans visiting Belfast- PSNI would do Poland a favour if they shot them on a spot)

      But we diverged from David’s article. Referring to his article, I would like to say that:

      - I would be curious to know what one had to do as an asylum seeker (apart from committing a serious crime) to get deported. Last time I asked that question (an Irish person working with refugees) I heard that as an asylum seeker you are waiting a few years for the court to decide whether you can stay or not and if not, then you get deported (which prompts a question: where to, if you do not have any documents as the boat immigrants; and why does it take a few years).
      - keep bashing me to your heart’s content, but in 10 years time I will remind you that I was saying something must be done with way the police operates here if we are to prevent the French-style burning cars criminality caused by the latest boat arrivals (what scares me in particular is that virtually all of them June illegals to Ireland all males – in future frustrated, single males: Sweden was promoted to first place in the world in terms of rates per capita after introducing the unconditional right to stay; overtaking not only countries like Romania, but even all African countries). There must be some middle way between PSNI style police and 6 armed Garda detectives at night (in fairness to DB4545 I could say that despite all of that, Ireland has the same murders per capita criminality rates as Poland, but that’s because the Polish police is way more corrupt than Gardaí).
      - France did not show much solidarity to any nation for the last 20 years, whether economic or any other. In fact the last time I heard the French President speaking in Warsaw he said we had missed the opportunity to shut up. Sorry I will be sharp in my statement, but Ireland has manages to avoid the insane multiculturalism of France and it did not cause some war France did, so shut up France and your self-inflicted immigrant problems.

      I would like to conclude on reminding the distinction introduced by Feliks Koneczny (who inspired Samuel Huntington) between culture and civilization. I can debate with DB4545 whether the new Irish should adapt to Irish culture entirely on his (he does not speak for all the Irish either) terms or not (by and large they should, but with some positive contributions from their own cultures).

      The problem with boat immigrants is that they do not represent a different CULTURE – they represent a different CIVILIZATIONS.
      Different cultures can coexists in one country (if the immigrants adapt). Different civilizations cannot.

      Koneczny claimed that in Latin civilization, ethics is the source of law. If some laws are not ethical, then they are changed. The law is of dual nature, divided into public and private spheres.

      Jewish civilization considers the law as the most important. The law is the source of ethics. The law cannot be changed (interestingly, Koneczny claimed that Adolf Hitler was an example of Jewish civilization type – der Fuehrer was not impressed).

      In Turanian civilization (Russian tsars), the government is the source of law and ethics.

      In Byzantine civilization, in politics all means are justified to achieve the goal (Germany under Bismarck).

      I know that this sounds terrible, but the boat people would be classified by him as pre-civilization. Their chances to adapt in first generation are bleak.

      Think of that in the next election, when we vote on whether we want to have “more Europe in Europe”.

  17. Colm MacDonncha

    Hi David
    On a different topic I’m sure you’ve been watching the airbnb saga unfolding. What kind of muppets run the country where a solid tourism service is about to be eviscerated by the interests of hotel chains and myopic regulators? Your thoughts are eagerly awaited. I feel an article coming up on this one…

  18. DB4545

    Colm MacDonncha,

    What sort of muppets run the Country? The sort who gave massive tax breaks to wealthy individuals and hotel chains and corporations to build hotels all over the Country during the boom. The sort who created Nama and sold off deeply discounted assets including hotels to wealthy vultures and vulture funds. The sort who don’t realise the benefits or WANT the Airbnb system which allows individuals rather than corporations to benefit. The sort who haven’t grasped that Airbnb a valuable mechanism to absorb and help with short term demand in the tourism sector WITHOUT the State (ie taxpayers) having to give tax breaks for new hotels and build tax funded infrastructure such as roads,water, drainage and electricity supply.

    The Governments of this Country will fellate the CEO of any foreign corporation promising “job creation” and grant them low corporation tax rates yet will kill stone dead a system which has proven it can deliver revenue streams directly to Irish Citizens. They prefer the revenue stream to gather in the nets of corporations and eventually find a home in tax havens rather than the pockets of Citizens. If this affected a corporate interest there would be emergency legislation being rushed through the Dail as we speak. Because it affects Irish taxpayers they couldn’t give a flying f**k. Remember this stupidity at the next election. Ar**holes the lot of them, and no I don’t rent out my home on Airbnb.


    The title speaks for itself. Scroll down a little for the article.

    Appropo the above. The funding comes from the central bank Mandrake dollars. The whole setup is evil. No other word for it.

  20. CallerNJ

    Where I live (not in Europe) they, I say they as I will always be treated as an immigrant expat here, actually have a problem with rich immigrants (expats), and it’s a major voting issue. So to take the totality as you say, in this totality is there ever good immigration?

  21. sravrannies

    You were right Tony. Hugo Slainas Price is obviously in the know.

    What now?


    • Peter

      Yes Hugo knows the score. He would be a great panelist for Kilkenomics.
      David would have to issue immigration papers to attend!!
      Others would be Bill Murphy of LeMetropolecafe, Eric Srott of Sprott Asset Management. John Embry too. Ben Davies of Hinde capital Management,
      Dave Kransler, Bill Holter, Jim Sinclair, etc.

      What now is a good question. It is the examination of the money system. To illuminate its ramifications to the public and have the public demand a change. It is not sufficient to allow even a referendum on a vague question but to change the constitution to implement honest money.

      Alternatively one must use it ones self at every opportunity.

      I sense that the 4 year bear leg of extreme manipulation by the central banks cannot be continued as the cheaper they drive the price of the metals the stronger the demand. Mints are running out of metal and so the physical premiums will rise and there will be a two tier pricing system. The physical pricing will over power the paper market.

      Do not save in fiat currency. Preserve your buying power in silver and gold and in other solid assets.

      China has decided to remove the peg to the dollar of the Renminbi and it is reduced by 3.5% and roiling the markets. This is the start of the final currency wars as each devalues itself against the other in to gain a trade advantage. It is a losers game as all will devalue to extinction. The only way to devalue the currency is to print more of it. Be prepared for an excelerated rate of inflation.

      The measurement of all currencies is through the US dollar index but a falling tide lowers all boats and the US dollar is inflated as well or more than the others.

      There will be no increasing the US dollar interest rate as that will strengthen the dollar at a time that the US economy is failing faster than before not withstanding the fudged statistics that say otherwise.

      Gold is the basic measuring stick of the value of all currencies. Deny it if you wish but it is a fact. That is why it is despised by central bankers and has been unceasingly attacked to drive down the perceived value. Ask yourself why the central banks carry tonnes of gold as a basic asset. It is the only asset with no counterparty risk. The only asset not simultaneously someone else’s debt.

      Gold if allowed to reach its true market pricing in fiat currency it will show the lie of the strong dollar but instead show its weakness.

      What now, Peter.
      Have no savings in fiat, or in bank accounts, or bonds or stocks. Place all in tangible assets, Store cash at home for a rainy day. Store food too. Prepare to hunker down to take advantage of the downturn and profit from it.

      By the way, there is little point in emigrating if you do not have to as all the commodity countries, including Brazil, Canada and Australia are in recession with 20-30% currency drops over the last few months.

      Nil desperandum, live well and prosper.

      • Greeks stash cash.

        Greeks stash over €50B in cash: Ekathimerini reported that over €50B in cash was stashed away in homes and safe deposit boxes in July, with the decrease linked to capital controls. The article cited the Bank of Greece who said “net liabilities related to the allocation of euro banknotes within the Eurosystem” went from €3.9B in November 2014 to €22B in July 2015. It added that the value of physical cash circulating in Greece is the highest in the Eurozone as a percentage of GDP at 27.8% while other countries average 6-8%. –lemetropolecafe

    • What now? from John williams

      John Williams would be another good guy for Kilkenomics.

      “Heavy Flight from U.S. Dollar Remains Likely in Year Ahead; Underlying Perceptions and Fundamentals Already Are Shifting
      - Economic Reality Has Begun to Overtake Illusion; No Economic Recovery Is Likely This Decade
      - Global Financial, Economic and Political Instabilities Are Pushed to Limits
      - Long-Range U.S. Sovereign-Solvency Issues Remain Unresolved
      - Gold and Silver Prices Will Explode in Flight from Dollar; Oil Prices Will Spike
      - Soaring U.S. Inflation Should Accompany Dollar Demise,
      Precursor to Domestic Hyperinflation
      - Physical Precious Metals Remain Best Inflation Hedge and Store of Wealth, Irrespective of Central Bank Gold-Price Manipulations

  22. [...] , can says what needs to be said, surely Man of the People, Joe Duffy from Ballyfermot can. Why immigration is a class issue | David McWilliams Immigrants by definition compete with the poorest local people in the job market, in the housing [...]

  23. We are at war but just do not know yet. Competitive devaluations will lead to trade wars and embargoes and finally a shooting war –Maybe. Immigrants will be unwelcome just as Canada turned away people in 1914 who were persecuted in their homeland.

  24. Immigration is the biggest red herring ever. There’s nothing to fear from poor desperate people. The real enemies are much closer to home.

    • coldblow

      That is predictably poor article.

      Britain’s leaders do not incite loathing of immigrants, rather they (if Tory) pretend to do something about the problem.

      ‘cheer led by the conservative press’ – where is the conservative press in Britain (or Ireland)? I can’t see one.

      I could go on at length but don’t have the time. Sufficient to say that it is high in rhetoric and has little insight.

      I really don’t think the British or Irish authorities have much of an idea of the figures involved in illegal immigration, don’t know what to do about it, and if they did know wouldn’t do anything about it anyway.

      • “But that would only be a temporary fix for a refugee crisis driven by war and state disintegration – and Britain, France and their allies have played a central role in most of the wars that are fuelling it. The refugees arriving in Europe come from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Sudan, Pakistan, Somalia and Eritrea.”

        Sounds about right to me. Nobody here looks for the source or cause of the refugees and a way to stop the refugees needing to flee. War is the problem. Instigated by Western powers. Functioning states are destroyed. Civil war and chaos ensues.

        At the risk of being censored, I’d say that the unlimited funds of our Ponzi scheme money system provide the cash for the war machines.

        Not only do we have to solve a mass migration problem but we are all put further in to debt in the process. All of us are being enslaved.

        Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.

        • coldblow

          Tony, even that bit isn’t really right. There are refugees and their are economic migrants and it is impossible in most cases to tell the difference, I would guess. The Third World has, in Crotty’s term, been ‘undeveloping’ always because of deep rooted structural problems which he thought pretty much impossible to cure.

          Let’s see how far I can get with this article.

          Never let it be said, he says, that Britain’s leaders miss an opportunity to inspire fear and loathing towards migrants and refugees. On the contrary, they have presided over an unprecedented transformation of British society. The Tories try to give the impression that they intend to do something, but they won’t, because they can’t (because of EU law and because the situation has gone too far to change now) and because they wouldn’t, even if they could. This is the same with their attitude towards the EU.

          Tv coverage of Calais was rhetoric to stoke visceral fears of the wretched of the earth. Wretched, perhaps, but probably less so than those left behind. The fears are also visceral because they are real. The rhetoric however is from the metropolitan intelligentsia, who he speaks for.

          Barely a hint of humanity towards those who died. I haven’t seen much of the coverage but what I did see focused largely on the suffering of those who died in Calais or on boats, and rightly so. Another straw man.

          Calais is as sideshow to those who pay to come into Britain by more promising routes. This is actually interesting but he doesn’t tell us anything more. Those who remain in Calais are those who cannot afford the traffickers. Here we have the traffickers as the embodiment of evil and the poor migrants are innocent and exploited. I’d guess that the migrants, who proably used traffickers to get to Calais, would have a much kinder view of them. This is a direct parallel with drug users and drug ‘traffickers’, the latter again being evil incarnate while the users are poor victims, the drugs themselves undergoing a weird process of transubstantiation. Now they are evil, now they are not…

          Greece, Italy, Kos. Yeah, we know. When they used to show Italian tv, a nightly half hour news programme, when Berlusconi was PM (and owned the tv station) and the glamorous blonde newsreader failed to hide her legs under the glass topped desk, they were even then showing pictures of boat loads of migrants landing and capsizing along their shores. This is going on 20 years ago.

          But this doesn’t match Turkey etc. Yeah, again we know. Germany and Sweden took more. Yeah, we know. And we also know they have ways of making sure this will be shared out.

          Ruthless exploitation of illegal and legal (is there much of a difference in the end?) in England. I would say this is exaggerated and beside the point. Nobody is making them come here. Indeed, some are still trying to stop them, or at least give that impression.

          Ministers are to blame for reducing union rights, and targeting illegals ‘enthusiastically’. I don’t know about the former and the second is what they should be (but aren’t) doing.

          Society is at risk of dividing over the issue. There have been violent protests against govt policy. I saw one of these protesters at the Kent coast being interviewed. He said there should simply be no border controls. This would of course mean that the immigration won’t stop until British living standards are reduced to those of the the Undeveloping World.

          A managed process would be much better. No it wouldn’t. It would never stop the tide.

          Western led conflicts in Somalia, Sudan, Eritrea, Pakistan. I don’t think this is true. The disastrous US humanitarian expedition in Somalia put them off trying this again for quite a while. Sudan. Wasn’t that a breakaway by an oppressed, Christian south? Eritra. That was Mussolini. Pakistan? Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq yes. The mad regime change in Libya was the main factor, I think in exacerbating the sea based refugee exodus in that Libya is now anarchic and chaotic and unable to control its coastline.

          It is a fantasy to imagine that a fortress Europe would work. It used to work. Coastlines were long controlled. I remember Erasmus on hs way back to the Continent, was relieved at Dover of all of they money he had been given by Henry VIII, Thomas More and others. It probably is a fantasy now, not least because, as I said in my original post on this thread, to question immigration policy would mean that you would have to question everything else in our politically correct universe.

  25. DB4545

    Adam Byrne
    Immigration may be considered by some to be a false flag but it has the potential to cause havoc in Europe.I welcome immigrants who have something to offer and are willing to contribute.In fact making benefits contributions based may help curtail the activities of local wasters as well.

    I well remember the most exciting food you could buy in dublin was a batter burger or the famous spice burger.Bland garbage.Immigration has made dublin an exciting and interesting city and has changed our provincial culture beyond recognition in a generation. We’ve always had immigrants from the vikings to the hugenots to the immigrants of today.

    There’s a lot to fear from poor desperate people when you’re poor and desperate yourself and you’re competing for crumbs from the same plate.That fear doesn’t usually articulate itself itself in a non violent way.I’d just like a bit more thought given to the selection process in the hope that a visit to ikea or a walk around the city doesn’t prove fatal.

    • coldblow

      I’m not impressed by the dining argument, which is a red herring, lightly grilled and served with saffron rice and balsamic vinegar dressing. The (late?) food journalist, Paolo Tullio, said that you could never get proper Italian food here because the local palate forced them to water it down.

      I don’t buy the ‘our economy needs it’ one either, or the vibrant, culturally enriching, new ideas, embrace change, etc one either. I don’t think the children learn their parents’s language. It just complicates life and they will probably grow up with a chip (or a french fry) on the shoulder and see all this witless gushing for what it is. I at least will have some sympathy for them.

      • DB4545


        So what’s your alternative coldblow? An english speaking bulgaria which is what we were effectively for most of the last century? History happened to roll the dice in our favour because we roll our r’s the same way as north america and because most of our emigrants there got to the ships before other groups.
        We can’t stop change but we can try to manage it in our favour.We can try to filter out the possible negatives and capitalize on the positives. We’re english speaking in a global economy where that’s essential. We’re not noticably bureaucratic by european standards and we’re willing to give it a go.

        And the dining element is vital.A full belly of good food and drink is congenial to business and pleasure regardless of where you come from.

        • coldblow

          What is my alternative? ‘We can’t stop change’ sounds like it is in the same category as ‘If we taxed them they’d only move their money out of the country’ or any number of conventional articles of faith. Realistically there is not much that can be done. We don’t, as far as I can tell, police our borders and rely on Britain to do this, and Britain has really lost the battle already. We are in Europe with free movement of people and capital (unless, in respect of the latter, you are Greece and Germany tells the ECB what to do)and so we can’t attempt anything unilaterally. We are reliant on foreign multinationals who I assume see full EU membership as an essential condition for remaining.

          On the other hand nobody was asked about these changes, or at least not in an honest way, for the simple reason that they wouldn’t have agreed to them. I doubt received opinion that we were a monochrome priest-plagued version of Bulgaria, mainly because I doubt received opinion as a matter of principle and because I don’t like those who peddle the myth, but also because in the 50s and 60s other places were worse, the same or little better. Whatever about that, people woke up one morning ten years ago to find that they really were in Bulgaria in that Bulgaria had come over to us.

          We then have the real prospect that the global economy will all fall to pieces. I hope it won’t, at least in a catastrophic form, but when we look at our leadership, opinion formers and poor level of analysis and debate there is a very good chance of that happening, as I’m sure we are all aware here. But it’s worse for us in that Ireland could never in the past provide for its people without the safety valve of emigration but was in fact the only European post-capitalist colonized nation. We aren’t natural bureaucrats (thank God), we don’t experience ‘a strange joy’ in following rules and regulations, but we have never shown any evidence that we can effectively govern ourselves. On top of that if you change a country so radically in such a short period of time in a very real sense it ceases to be the same country but is somewhere else. I remember Desmond Fennell, who had lived on Muínis in Conamara back in the 60s or 70s and become a keen Gaeltacht civil rights warrior (until he decided that the cause was lost), writing about the desolate, arid feel of those parts of the country which had only recently lost the language.

          As for food, again I agree it is vital, but that’s my point. Imported exotics quickly lose their appeal and can sour by the time a new generation arrives. My first experience of eating in an Indian restaurant, before my 18th birthday, was one of the best I ever had. But I find that the promise of foreign food is deceptive, it is made bland to suit mass tastes (like our media), is tarted up and served in small quantities on oversized plates or lumps of slate. It’s actually quite a good metaphor for our politics in that it relies on rhetoric (Dublin Bay Prawns, hand-cured Limerick Ham etc) which doesn’t match reality. What exactly, for example, is a ‘darn’, as in a darn of salmon, or a rack of lamb, or those scraggy bits of chicken which glory in the name of ‘goujons’?

          What I like is plenty of food first and foremost. Turkey and ham is a first rate dish, because you get turkey AND you get ham, with probably a nice bit of stuffing, some gravy, and if you go to a decent pub, mashed AND chips. This reminds me of a true story (about about five years ago) of a neighbour of my wife’s in Kerry, a bachelor farmer, notorious for having no interest in anything but the land (‘Chfrist! Why would you ask ME about football?’) who eats his dinner every afternoon in a pub in town. For some reason he missed it one day and it was suggested (probably with malice) that he try this restaurant.
          When they saw him coming through the door of this posh establishment, in his wellingtons and work clothes, they brought him into a corner with a view to getting rid of him asap. The young waitress asked if he wanted to see the menu. ‘Bring me mate, and bring me spuds,’ he said, ‘and f**k the menu.’

          • DB4545


            Well that’s good food too coldblow, nothing wrong with it when you’ve been on the business end of a tractor and a wind as cold as a witch’s nipples is blowing in from the atlantic.

  26. Whistler township, north of Vancouver, is having a tourist boom and is desperately short of labour.

    Want to emigrate? here is an opportunity. I hope you can afford the housing costs.

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