November 21, 2013

Linking hospital boss benefits to sale of Mars Bars makes me sick

Posted in Behavioural Economics · 131 comments ·
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A bonus is supposed to be an incentive for an employee to be more productive. In the case of a hospital chief executive, presumably a bonus should be related to running a better hospital.  You’d think that has to be linked to patient care – both in terms of its efficiency and the experience of the patient. It should also factor in other hospital workers, making sure they are not only efficient, but that there is high staff morale.

This is what a hospital does. It exists to look after the health of its patients and, where the staff is looked after, this will be easier to achieve. This is exactly what we patients expect when we present to hospitals and good management seeks to achieve this sweet-spot where respected workers administer excellent service.

It is, therefore, a shock to hear that the bonus of the Chief Executive of Crumlin Children’s Hospital is linked to the sales of Mars Bars, Crunchies and Twixes in the hospital shop.

Your small newsagent shop which is in the business of maximizing the sales of Mar Bars, Crunchies and Twixes might link a bonus of the person on the till, who is the point of contact between the consumer and the newsagent, to the sales of Mars Bars. But linking the bonus of the hospital boss, let’s call him Mr Mars Bar, to the sales of Mars Bars to sick kids and their concerned families, makes me feel sick. It is another example of the moral sleeveenism, which seems to infect so much that goes on at the highest levels of large parts of the public sector.

Don’t worry, this is not an anti-public sector article, but one that points out how shameful it is that grown adults – so called pillars of society – would extract money from the public purse in such a way.  Take a bonus by all means (if you deserve it), but please don’t treat us, the people who pay your wages, with such disdain. Don’t dream up a little scam, linking the bonus of the chief executive to the sales of Mars Bars to kids who are ill. It’s too horrible.

If it is a smart stroke to get over government pay guidelines, which is what it looks like, consider for a second the moment these insiders stumbled across the grotesque gombeen idea of linking a bonus for Mr Mars Bar to the sales of sweets to hospital visitors? Can you imagine the self-satisfied nudges and winks as these insiders figured out another way to gouge the public purse and dress it up in the meritocratic language of the modern business-school?

Quite apart from being annoyed at this scam for people paid well over €100,000 by the rest of us, the bonus issue should force us to focus on the crucial question of whether bonuses actually work?

You will remember during the boom, bankers claimed that they had to have bonuses of a certain gargantuan quantum or they couldn’t do their jobs and would have to go to the competition. The other jobs they claimed were lined up ready with open wallets to take them were never specified, but remuneration committees (which they usually also sat on) rarely asked questions.

The central idea is that monetary bonuses enhance performance and that top jobs are so complex that the performance of the head buck cat is essential to the overall performance of the company. Whatever about the fact that it is deeply unfair for the chief executive to earn multiples of the average worker, many business colleges accept the notion that the boss should be paid such multiples. The logic seems to be that where motivation is suspect, money can cure it. So if the service isn’t working, pay the bosses more and they will work as hard as they can to make things better.

This sounds intuitively right, doesn’t it?

Experiments by behavioural economists spear-headed by Professor Dan Ariely recent star-performer at Kilkenomics, reveal that bonuses change behaviour but not in the ways we expect.

The behavioural economist carried out an experiment to see if people actually behave in the way we think they do – work better, smarter, harder when a big bonus is paid.

In the experiment people were asked to carry out all sorts of tasks demanding attention, memory, concentration and creativity. One third of the people were told they’d get a small bonus, one third a decent bonus and one third a huge bonus.

What would you expect? Obviously the people with the bigger bonus would work harder, wouldn’t they? That’s not what the researchers found. Oddly, the ones with the medium bonus performed no better or worse than the ones with the small bonus and, bizarrely, the ones with the biggest bonus performed worse. This might be because they thought they had earned enough and stopped. If you think this is strange, next time you have a chat with a taxi driver who says he is knocking off because he has earned enough that day, remember that people don’t always respond to the allure of more money by working more.

The psychologists repeated the study using another group but this time only gave two bonuses – one big and one small. They also divided the tasks into one demanding reasoning and cognitive skills, while the other was simply mechanical skills involving tapping a keyboard.

In general, they found that when it comes to mechanical skills, the bonus increased performance but for the harder stuff, the bonus had no effect.

Other researchers studying the impact of bonuses on individuals and teams highlighted the negative impact that high bonuses can have on those staff who don’t get a bonus – as you would expect.

One of the reasons bonuses fail is because bonuses tend to motivate people to specialize on areas where they can make money to the detriment of all others.

If you set up bonus structures to motivate people to focus on certain areas, they will focus on them, often to the detriment of other areas, including the morale of those around them. Think about the impact of setting up a bonus for the head of a hospital in order to evade government pay guidelines, and basing it on the sales of Mars Bars rather than patient outcomes.

As a taxpayer, if that doesn’t make you feel like a sucker taken for a ride by people who don’t understand the meaning of the expression “public service”, I don’t know what will.

 David Mc Williams will host the Winter Tales Book Festival at Dalkey on December 7th. www.dalkeybookfestival.org

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  1. Paul Divers

    A1 David

    The salary of hospital Masters is being topped up with private funding of which no-one seems to know the source and their pension contributions are being topped up with public funds. Yet no-one knows nothing. Omerta is at work. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil

    Bizarre is not the word for it and surely there is a lack of basic morality and common decency in all this don’t you think?

    Something is very very wrong here and you are right to feel sick at this state of affairs which would be funnier than The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists if it was not so serious and real.

    People say ‘sure you would take it if you were offered it’ and this attitude leaves me with no sense of hope at all. The fact is I wouldn’t take it and neither I suspect would Robert Noonan

    Meanwhile one in five children are going to school or their bed hungry and 10% of the population don’t have enough to eat. Some of them will kneel on a Sunday morning instead of snapping out of it and demanding heads on pikes by the Liffey; figuratively speaking of course. Paralysis through fear and servitude

    The article linked to below highlights the chronic health problems associated with food poverty yet for some reason many schools have not even applied for available funding for breakfast clubs. Why not? Why are they denying the children food?

    Meanwhile James Reilly thinks putting graphic images on fag packets will help these children more than regular square meals. People like Reilly are a danger and a menace to society. He is one of The Brigands

    There is nothing more dangerous than an idealogue on a mission and it is no wonder people have stopped voting. It’s just not working lads and our apathy is only stoking up problems for future generations. We can remain silent and pretend there is no shame in this or we can speak up even if it means alienating ourselves.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-five-children-are-going-to-school-or-their-bed-hungry-29772602.html

    The Brigands At Work (Chapter 39)
    http://theramblingwest.blogspot.ie/2013/10/a-cabal-of-gombeens.html

    • Paul Put very well I fear It’s tip of the iceberg I have Reason To Attend Hospital often and clampers Skulking Around Corners trying To trap Sick people For Parking makes Me Sicker To know Where money Goes. People Are So disillusioned with all The Wrongs In this Country They Have Become Immune To Wrongdoing. 80% Of Health budget Goes On salaries and Still The Greed Shows Through,-:)

  2. A great article .

    I sometimes wonder how Irish Politics compares in behaviour science and where does the word ‘transparency’ show itself and in the said article what are the known knowns , the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns .After all if we knew everything the Taoiseach would know too .He said he didn’t .

    How would you compare the hard graft efforts by sincere charity workers to raise funds for the hospital and just think how they would feel .

    Was it declared for taxes before disclosure …tum di dum…makes an interesting story .

  3. 5Fingers

    A1. I am clearly having an effect on you :)

    Bonuses reinforces “winner take all” and insider/outsider barriers. Let’s start to realize that these guys are where they are courtesy of luck and the right contacts (crony/ nepo/mutual spooky soc etc). They are not special in any other way.

    Mars bars? I love that association. It just points to the awful logic that we need to encourage more sickness to pay these f%%%ers. I bet they get free med care and meds as well out of the local pharmacy to counteract their lifestyle.

  4. Kevin Lyda

    People want public services to be cheaper – they say they want to cut waste. A shop in a hospital makes money. Unlike the multitude of cost-centres in a hospital, the shop should actually make money for the hospital.

    So if everyone is harping on about reducing health spending and how debt is terrible and how we should get rid of waste – why not give the hospital boss an incentive to have the shop make more money? We want the public sector run like a business, don’t we?

    That’s the message I see all the time in the media – and often on this blog.

    If we don’t like the results, maybe we should think about sending a different message.

    • EMMETTOR

      WTF are you talking about? There is no relationship between the performance of the sweet-shop and what the Master of the hospital does. The Master has probably never even set foot in there. What are you on?

  5. tomahawk

    Why is everybody so surprised?
    For instance, our Presidents entourage of specialist advisors are paid above the salary cap. Where does this money come from?
    The sense of entitlement ‘because we’re worth it’ disease that has gripped the country is endemic and not confined to hospitals!

  6. Adelaide

    “A Mars A Day Helps You Work, Rest And Play.” I thought that was an advert jingle and not a proven medical treatment for children. Shows you how much I know. Wow, so what are the medical benefits of Crunchies and Twixes? I’m guessing they’re somehow a treatment for Leukemia?

    • It seems to come easy to you to sneer At leukaemia Adelaide Bet you Wouldn’t If you suffered From It And To Face Clampers Rip Off Prices And Generally Being Fucked About You’d Change Your Mind I Worked In This Shithole Of A country For 52 Years And Paid Tax’s To Educate Most Of These Parasites Who Not Only Empties Piggy Banks But Never Gave Back Anything Toward There Education,..?

      • Adelaide

        I posed a serious question, not a sneer.

        If the Chief Executive is being remunerated by the Sweet Shop then I want to know what public medical benefit comes from this arrangement. Are they using KitKat as a cure for cancer, I’m curious. What I sneer at is begrudger’s accusation that this top doc is creaming the system for his own jollies. Has it not occurred to anyone that he’s possibly on to a medical breakthrough with intravenous chocolate candy, thereby saving more children in his charge, and hence his well deserved bonus? The article doesn’t clarify what these Willy Wonka bonuses are for. Hence my question.

  7. hibernian56

    Yes, it’s another example of why we need a very large reset button.

    And here we are entering another cold spell.

    We’re all about to be screwed by the semi-states for having the audacity to heat our homes. Of course the energy costs have nothing to do do with their excessive pay, perks and pensions, no no no, it’s the price of oil.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-a-startling-array-of-perks-on-offer-for-esb-staff-26767643.html
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bord-gais-retirees-to-get-440000-package-despite-price-hikes-26764656.html

    Where is Ray Burke these days?
    http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

    Ireland = Potato Republic run by “civil” service for the benefit of the civil service.

    These people are a-moral with a God complex and a as David points out a deranged mindset of self entitlement.

    • Morally Spiritually And Nationally Defunct for €20 Billion There Has To Be A Healthcare Company In The USA Cuba That Would Do A Better Job Cheaper, Keep Her Lit”

  8. 5Fingers

    What I like about this article is that it presents a very tangible hold on the hypocrisy of the both our politics and our public services.

    General:
    Scam >>> Problems Created >>> stress/ weaken people >>> who must pay to fix >>> Scammer Payoff – REPEAT

    Specific:
    Example 1: Mars bar sales >>> Health Issues >>> weaken people >>> who must pay to fix >>> insiders get payoff

    Example 2: Excess Money supply >>> Inflation >>> people poorer>>> pay more for same rubbish >>> developers payoff

    Example 3: Keep Banks Viable >>> Huge Spend Cuts/Tax Hikes >>> people weakened >>> must pay more >>> Insider bonuses & MEP & EU jobs & big jobs to Water/ Septic Tank/ regulatory scam authorities

    Example 4: EU Standards conformance >>> Hi chance of non-conformance >>> higher cost of doing anything>>> people/ business forced to spend more >>> payoff to regulatory insiders – easier entry for big big players and killer or small enterprises.

    Example 5: Qualifications Requirements >>> competence no longer regarded >>> people need to re-qualify >>> hi cost as must go via “recognised” groups >>> hi payoff to insiders (who are usually and mysteriously the first to be qualified.

    REPEAT

    • hibernian56

      Or as David Icke coined it, Problem > Reaction > Solution.

      Short version as it applies to war, but its the same principal for almost any scenario the civil service insiders can dream of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWo1wKWiJHY

      By the way, its not illegal to fit a security alarm in your own house yourself. You must have a registered installer.

      Regulators = rewards = increased power base for the civil service.

      • hibernian56

        not = now. Apple’s anti-anti-establishment spell checker strikes again.

        By the way, its NOW illegal to fit a security alarm in your own house yourself. You must have a registered installer.

  9. Adelaide

    In defence of the Chief Executive, he personally manages the Sweet Shop on Monday and Wednesday mornings, his daughter runs it Tuesday and Thursday mornings and his wife does Friday and Saturday mornings, and a JobBridge intern does all the afternoons. They’re closed on Sundays because they’re a deeply religious family.

    By the way, they’re opening a second Sweet Shop in Our Lady’s Hospice for the Dying and are planning to staff it with the terminally ill there funded by the government’s Activation Employment Training Program for Mature JobSeekers. They also won the contract to manage its car park.

  10. DavidIreland

    “Let them eat Mars Bars”.

    The horrible truth is that some of these people – at least in their careers – are mainly motivated by money.

    When, as a child, I first saw the movie “The Third Man” starring Orson Welles, it left an indelible mark on me. I couldn’t get my little head around the notion of such cruel profiteering at the expense of people’s health.

    We need a few good men and women to consistently and loudly call out this type of parasitic behaviour and shout STOP before it gets out of hand. In my view, our democracy is more fragile than we think and we’ll reach a tipping point if this type of selfishness continues.

  11. Original-Ed

    What do you expect – they simply want pay rates that are comparable to the highest in the international sphere and to live in this beautiful, low hassle, little country of ours. Wow !, it’s a dream come through
    for all those at the top of our public service. Solidarity with those other citizens who paid for your expensive education – that’s an outmoded concept in a global village – suckers! It’s extort what you can while you can.

    Pat Kenney, yesterday was justifying these excessive pay rates on the basis that our public services are not as good as those in the likes of Finland where equivalent jobs attract have our pay rates – I detect a element of self interest here.

    Think about the logic here – pay more for poorer services because the services are poorer – I thought he was an engineer.

    It’s classic Ireland – beautiful little country but it’s a pity about its people.

  12. fred

    We are being taken for fools all the time. The “insiders” keep taking advantage with their sense of entitlement as demonstrated by Mr Mars Bar. This story probably has only been made public because Mr Mars bar has annoyed someone closer to the inside. It will also act to distract the outsiders from some of the major issues that our government has not addressed. it is symbolic of the disconnect between the insiders and outsiders. We pay taxes and provide charitable donations to such hospitals where the CEO (and board/financial team) thinks it is ok skim profits from a shop. These same insiders will applaude us in December for “putting our shoulder to the wheel” and “sharing the burden” when Ireland “exits the bailout” in December. The bailout (another less pscyhologically damaging term for a high interest loan) won’t end in December, we will be paying it for decades. We have had 2.5 years of this government that promised to reform things. What has changed? Cuts without reform (has anything been done to prevent another property bubble or to ensure the correct behaviour of bankers in the future?). Austerity policies while out national debt is rising considerably. The issues of national and private debt have been ignored hoping that something will turn up while we gain patronising approval from Europe. The financial crisis had a devastating effect here but it should have been used to reform and improve our county. December the 15th would be a perfect time to show our frustration

    • Sure now, the odious debt should be refuted. that is close to half the national debt. Then foreclose on the banks who do not/ can not pay back the odious debt.

      Sell all the bank assets and close it down. Assets include performing mortgages. Sell to the highest bidder and give the borrower right of first refusal to buy back the mortgage. (Many will be discounted below book value)
      Then issue treasury notes and pay off the rest of the national debt. That eliminates all the payments currently being made by the taxpayer.
      The government would then be in surplus and income taxes could be abolished.
      I suspect that the economy would take off and prosperity regained.
      Of course we would need the balls to declare monetary sovereignty and leave the EURO and have a national currency.

      The only problem is that Ireland would now be on the same list as north korea, Cuba, Iran and Libya et al and be subject to us/nato invasion and the politicians assassinated. Who will take that chance to become a freed person.

      • All the politicians getting ‘assassinated’ (although I’d rather use the term ‘put down’) would be fine by me Tony.

        We could start with about 140 in the Dail – I’d spare the Independents and Sinn Fein.

        If the US (after the invasion) need anyone to actually apply the headshots to Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour TDs – I volunteer. Hopefully Bertie and Cowen might be in the bar on the same day.

        I’d get a good night’s sleep after that I tell you.

  13. A Typhoon A couple Of Notch’s Higher Than What Hit Philippines Might Now Only Might Spur Change Here You Got Angles Naild Down Fred, -:)

  14. Don’t always agree with you David, and I am not entirely sure I do about the bonus analysis – but I most certainly agree about how bloody dis-graceful this country is still tolerating underhand “money for the boys”

    The Professional classes in this country have screwed the system (barristers – accountants – medics etc) for an eternity; and there seems to be no-one prepared to take this on in Government circles. I thought it one of the conditions of our IMF Bailout that this was sorted. Any and all of which it is reprehensible that a handful of individuals are lining their own pockets on the back of the sick (and of course the tax-payer ultimately) – but that’s what this country does….

    Bonuses – if they are performance related (whereby performance is measured on long term benefits) – then they should be a good thing. Its not the level of pay (and I would pay someone an 8 figure sum if they sorted the health system here) – its the underhandedness. Ultimately these people are not out to benefit the Sick only themselves – and the way they run hospitals (even if they are private) has to be fully questioned.

    Philip

    • bonbon

      And odd deafening silence there on banksters – “barristers – accountants – medics etc”.

      Care to elaborate on this, typically Tiger and telling omission?

      Or perhaps it is a case of Brutish liberal “understatement”, maybe even “euphemism”.

  15. Tony

    And this is why we need the govt. to get out of medicine and health care. They’re fucking crap at it. Look at the prices we pay for generic medicines. What is it? 2% less than wholesale? The HSE is a gigantic screw-up.

    I went to my doctor on Tuesday with (what seems to be) a neck problem. He said I need an MRI.
    Here’s how the conversation went.
    “Ok. Can you arrange that?”
    No problem, but you might want to go private, because It’ll be 2016 before they can do it”.
    “What the fuck”
    “Yeah. Try Euromedic. It’s about €200″
    I have an MRI booked for Friday

    As long as the system is based on outrageous budgets and not performance, this shit will never change.

  16. Adelaide

    Hi Tony. I went to Euromedic for a specific scan from a specific diagnosis. It took them five attempts to capture it. My company health insurance covered it fully but they charged 5X200 = one grand.
    If your diagnosis is vague be sure to clarify what exactly they are scanning for. Otherwise your repeated scanning will turn into an expensive scamming.

  17. whatamess

    While this news is v.regrettable and the attitude and behaviour ought to be condemned ,it’s hardly scandalous! I don’t expect any tribunals to emerge from this any time soon yunno

    What causes me to ‘empty reach’ is discussing the tedium of “phone calls and footlockers”,all the while ,as the entire system implodes

    (shake of head)

    • joe hack

      The words on here won’t incite Action DMW is doing a payed job, he is not a doing it out of a conviction, like many other wordsmiths he does it to get paid, it’s beyond me how some here think otherwise.

      DMW quilt making or knitting circle, that reminds me! I must get to Hickeys as they a new selection of fine cashmere wool’s in.

      • Jaysus Joe I nearly Dropped a stitch In Fairity To DMW He’s Not The Worst Economist In The Media There Is One B%^*+X On Prime-time An He Just Opens His Mouth An Lets It Say What It Likes ,:)

        • joe hack

          lol- In thought the bunny hole around the big tree out through the bunny hole you can’t catch me
          1960 early 70 knitting rhyme in bedded in my head by the De La Salle – “How gay is that” they didn’t just abuse with rhymes they had sticks too – I still can’t knit… I can remember the Academic waffle – I can say but not do…

          I can’t do it but I can remember the rhyme it just goes to prove that this form of memory technique works at least for rhymes but not for knitting – what was I on about oh yea quilt making blogs it seem a little too much rhyme no reason and nothing is made.

          Academic waffle at best

          • That’s how to tie a bowline knot.
            Twist the line so it loops two feet from the end.
            Have the vertical behind the horizontal. The tree behind the hedge.
            take the bitter end and pass it through the hole from behind so The rabbit pops out of the hole, jumps over the hedge, goes around the tree back over the hedge and back down the rabbit hole. Voila a loop secured by a bowline.

            Beats knitting

          • whatamess

            “..but I can remember the rhyme it just goes to prove that this form of memory technique works at least for rhymes..”

            Joe,fear of getting the leather concentrated our minds too…more savagery by ‘Christian Brothers’

      • whatamess

        “The words on here won’t incite Action”

        Sorry but i’m not convinced Joe.

        Minds change

        Attitudes change

        Mental shackles unlocked

        Let’s not underestimate “that human noëtic quality of will”

        And yeah i understand Joe ,as i’ve commented here before, that DMW’s clients may have their conditions and our host has his concessions – that’s the commercial battleground of today….lessons in the not so tender mercies of injustice

        • joe hack

          Some people following this blog are here for tips on bit-coin and money investment etc.

          These same people complain about others making money – envy dressed up as concern for a society; some do not even bother to vote and then complain about those elected. This blog can’t even incite people to take a walk to the local school house, these are the people that do the knitting here on the DMW quilt “His Fan Base”

          You know that I know that you know that minds are malleable – hence the success consumerism. However, the readership of glossy mags is much higher than reader ship on here. Inch by inch over thousands of years got us back to knitting here…

          The difference here is that this blog is more ‘akin’ to a quilt making circle than it is a blacksmiths forge – No sexism implied or intended..

          I me mine

          • Joe Knitting Blogs Really Do Exist and there Is one Prize Knitter Missing Today I hope He Didn’t Go Mad An Join a Bridge Club Or Some Other Reckless Organisation These Knitter Blogs Are Akin To The Nodders Another Outrageous Bunch Most Of These Asshole Blogs Are Media Driven The Housing Bubble Bank Collapse Poverty Hollywood Salaries All Media Driven But Worst Of All Are Status Quo Here Media Are Most Insistent They Hold On With White Knuckles In Mortal Fear Of There Own Salaries Being Taxed, -:)

  18. whatamess

    “ECB needs ‘safety margin’ against deflation”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10466285/Mario-Draghi-ECB-needs-safety-margin-against-deflation.html

    Where is the People’s safety margin ,as the limbo dancing continues to below zero %

    ———————————————————————–

    reminds me,for some bizzare reason, to think of The Irish Land Commission back in late 19th Century [ as we know it was an 'organisation' that re-shuffled the farm land ]

    So if a farmer had 4 plots of 5 acres (let’s just say) in a townland ,but not all plots,if any,were on-bounds with each other ,it would be ‘arranged’ by the commission to parcel one 20 acre farm all together ,rather than having it all disjointed yunno

    Regrettably ,there were some farmers of course that got bad marshy land,but maybe in picturesque locations. When offered the empty token of consolation – “it’s a beautiful view!” , the reply would always be the same

    “But you can’t eat a view !!!”

  19. joe hack

    That is why the Germans are so successful, i.e. they do not even have minimum wage as performance incentive.
    The German fat cats know from their own fat cat lifestyle that if they give the peasant cat to much cream it becomes lazy, smug, superior, arrogant, conceited, haughty and complacent.
    You cannot allow the slave to become complacent; you must pay them less to incentivise them.

    The slaves believe that if they work hard or work for nothing (interns) they will be rewarded – The peasants can taste the cream but they must not be allowed to swallow!

    Big JIM memories are short and weakness has become inbeded! and don’t mean Diamonds Jim….

    Good stuff DMW but you did not need Dan to tell you that the cats on the streets Kilkenny know this…

  20. Corruption is endemic around the world and not confined to a particular country.

    It is induced to create mayhem. Then the solutions are provided to restore sanity. but it invariably involves more regulation, more control, less freedom.

    It is the master plan for one world government.

    Right here is the history of the controllers

    http://humansarefree.com/2011/09/history-of-house-of-rothschild-complete.html#

  21. whatamess

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25037082

    It’s only at report stage ,but the “Parliamentary Commission on Banking who sit in the Lords have the clout to amend the Banking Reform bill in line with their recommendations, and this IS their moment.

    “The commission wanted much tougher proposals than the government; they wanted not just a clear separation between the retail and investment arms of banks, but also the “electrification,” of this barrier, in the form of powers for the regulators to step in if they felt that a bank was “gaming the system”.

    nite all

    • That link describes a bilge load of waffle. Simple thing is to allow banks to fail. Ban fractional reserve lending. Ban depositor guarantees by the government. (no guarantees for any other investment). Ban the Central banking system of the Ponzi scheme fiat notes. Ban legal tender laws.

      Let the people be responsible for making a free choice for which money they wish to use and what to do with it.

      All else is whiffle, waffle. Solves nothing.

      • whatamess

        Thank you for your review.Glass Steagall is a diversion,right Tony;) Yes it’s a diversion alright ,for sure, if by diversion you mean a diversion to the TRUTH and awwwway from the bullsh** of La La Land with Po and Twinkie Winkie and magic wands!

        The Fact that the TIME needed to make all 3 of your complex components,with no precedent, come together harmoniously, we simply don’t have! Ipso facto – a non-runner,quixotic,a DEAD DUCK,sorry 3 dead ducks

        The shot clock’ has almost run out and i don’t place my trust in the hopes of future generations in your brand of “order from chaos” ‘Hail Mary’ passes which is just more imperial economics.
        We need STABILITY,in a knowable way. Glass Steagall delivers that!

        And what’s the your growth model btw? oh,i forgot,- THE free marketeers of the “free markets” and unknowable “spontaneous growth” from magic beans of irrationality.What a sham!We are in an abyss of debt!!! So any future plans ,with zero design and zero human intent (basically letting future to chance) doesn’t inspire me one bit.

        Any proposals of sudden change, frighten already v.fearful people and the outcome of any one of your 3 proposals,is a complete unknown quantity and this will cause even MORE fear and instability, so it’s “marketability” is near to zilchhh. Glass Steagall however functioned beautifully for decades and this law ,ALL NEAT AND TIDY is just waiting to be picked off the shelf and re-instated.

        That’s REAL

        • 5Fingers

          We need a race. That is what drives progress and invention. Be it war or competition, we need a race.

          There is not a single instance in history where planned anything worked. It was a crisis driven reaction, a war or pure competition. Where planned economies were deployed, it was death and destruction and a disastrous outcome. Randomness drives it all and you hope you are in the right place at the right time to take advantage.

          As for GS, like any negotiation, if you play your hand too early, it will be used against you. There is no global law to allow implementation and if there was, the real money would scarper.

          There is a terrible discomfort about randomness. It suggests spontaneity/ a lack of apriori intent/ a mindlessness. The honest truth is that no one knows. All I can say is that we perhaps need to be even more careful not to overrate “mind” and the game like contrivances it so awfully and repeatedly applies to reality.

          • joe hack

            “We need a race. That is what drives progress and invention. Be it war or competition, we need a race.”

            Who would “we” like to die first in YOUR need for war! How very unanimous of You! This “We” does not want anyone to purposefully die so I can have new shiny object.
            The case for war is an excuse used by those that cannot countenance realty nor do they and you apparently believe that a society can progresses with the use of the brain, I will leave you to figure out what that implies… However, that might be beyond your ability and as a result, maybe you should be first to die in ‘your’ war!

            Oh, you might consider taking Bush with you for company…

          • Then Get A Bigger Ball Of Wool,

          • bonbon

            Don’t be daft. We have the Human race, unique, and after all only humanity has economics.

            The entire space program, everywhere was planned. The entire silicon garden you right now use was from that mission-orientation.

            And guess who was the mission man – JFK. That is why we have a wake now.

          • 5Fingers

            Moonshot and Silicon tech were cold war driven. As was the internet.

        • joe hack

          Tony’s ‘societal model’ is a mix of anarchy, fairy dust and love thy neighbour.

          His prescribed money system espouses a freedom with no rules But He! Then goes on to state what ‘the TONY’ dictatorship should be-Tony freedom is enslavement to Tony will – It’s a mix of Little House On The Prairie and Attila the Hun with the a kings muse or fool Max Kiser thrown in to the mix.

          Survival of the fittest except if you are a “nice” wimp neighbour of Tony he will help you if he decides to ?

          “NINE Best U.S. places to survive the apocalypse” Here is an image of tony at home, happy in his idealistic world: What would Alice in wonderland be without the drug-induced words?

          when too much metal gets into the brain the imbibed mercury makes for the ‘Mad Hatter’ in this case the imbibed shiny magpie item is gold – a useful resource in the electronics and world and such like but prior to that it was just as useful as piece wood – the tally stick was the most successful money system thus far,
          ‘Money’ is a tool.

          Tony when dictating is freedom wants to impinge on others freedoms…

          I am not yet sure, if he has ‘Walter Mitty Syndrome’ or if he is an apocalyptic satanic apostle?

        • Also real are the trillions of debt being piled on the people of the world by the central banks through various named “easings” all this money to bail out the banks you insist will be catastrophic to fail. you allow that this accumulation of debt is better.

          Get rid of the lot. central banks, fiat money, Trillions of debt based Ponzi scheme money, and the insolvent banks too. Free the people.

        • What is real is the accumulating national debts of Ponzi scheme fiat debt based money.

          All those zombie banks you will not let die are sucking the life blood from the people.

          Let the zombie expire. Get rid of the central banking system. Be rid of bailouts to infinity. Be rid of the fiat debt based money system

          give the people their freedom

  22. whatamess

    JFK in Dublin 1963

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EuGsu_Y0YA

    If he could see us now

  23. whatamess

    Tony’s “sound money” approach , that I have read at length, appears very sound indeed! And yes, the FIAT currencies we have now is a lesson, that was learned the harrrd way ,and there is much much need for change there and I would happily elect you Tony to a Gov’t advisory council to work through such an issue!

    But that’s only the money issue.. Money is NOT an economic driving force, but a means of wealth exchange and a mere single component of a FUNCTIONING ECONOMY. So, you’ve “impeccable logic ,but money is an absurd axiom”.

    When one runs their own business, one does so from the axiom of keeping the customer satisfied. From there, all else flows. The moment you shuffle away from that axiom, is the very moment your future business may either, slow down, stop or regress —- Much like starting a new restaurant and one of two owners is off ‘busy’ choosing EPOS systems and the other business partner is busy focusing on creating the gourmet food which he knows, let’s just say, is the single reason why customers will continue to keep walking in the door.

    Yes, business owners don’t want to get paid in magic beans of course, but while considering sound payment is important, it’s the wrong starting point and the wrong FOCUS ! It must NOT be a case of blind faith and “if you build it ,they will come” (Field of Dreams) self-delusional belief systems.. You’ve absofuckinluuuutely gotta have a purposeful strategic action PLAN. And yes that plan will too evolve and change when limitations and weaknesses are identified, but a designed GROWTH strategy is crucial, both for the restaurant and /or a country !

    I would ask what your proposed mechanisms and timeframe are for banning fractional reserve banking and closing central banks, but I expect that would be as useful as me asking what colour was your magic wand. Again, sorry if that sounds very harsh and my intention isn’t to offend you. I mean that Tony! I’m just super frustrated with your blind spots and I’m doing my level best at keeping it real, when faced with the obvious realities …we are in a hole so so deeeeep ,like NEVER before in history,and humanity is suffering terribly and we need REAL solutions!

    It’s a matter of life or death !!!

    I’m sure Tony and others here would say the VERY same of my support of GS ,and that’s fine, but I see all these other pseudo strategies akin to bailing us out of a rapidly sinking ship by using egg cups – flawed in the extreme..mite as well use a fork for all the good it’ll do us and I say US ,as we are ALL in this together!

    The ‘original recipe’ Glass Steagall IS that ‘customer centric’ axiom, from which all else can then can flow in our economies. What OPPORTUNITY !! Imagine what a tiny % of $gazillllions , fraudulently paid to banksters, would create for humanity ! Mindbogggling !

    We CAN and it’s hard to believe ,choose an alternative to the current oligarch system of empire, that is now collapsing and quickly. The window of opportunity however for that to happen won’t remain open for too much longer. Let’s not be that ‘senseless’ herd of Bison and Gazelle waiting for rain in drought conditions, next to an empty water pool !

    Please understand that i’m not lecturing anyone here ,but laissez-faire attitudes ,by some, of throwing caution to the wind and letting the chips fall where they may, when lives are at stake , can be seen as despicable.We all need to rid ourselves of optimism bias and be FULLY conscious of the future life threatening consequences on humanity , when a strategy is implemented with a fuck-the-consequences approach of “JUST letting” this handful of MEGA banks fail – a suicidal strategy, maybe murderous, maybe even genocidal !

    We all can ponder the imponderables. If you are reading these words, it may all sound OTT , but think about it, reason it out….maybe you’ll reach the same ,FACT based, Real world conclusions that I have? Maybe not…

    Meanwhile the countdown continues folks!

    We are not Baboons !!!!!!

    1 minute
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZRz1ETyfu4

    • bonbon

      Hilarious! I heard of that from India, but monkeys are the same everywhere in the Brutish Empire.

      So we have them trapped, they cannot let go of that morsel!

      Still, they are not really edible ! To the rubber room with colorful buttons they can press for food (monkeys can learn verbs!).

  24. an advisory council is unnecessary. the truth is self evident.

    sound money is as you say a medium of exchange, and a store of wealth and other properties such as being immutable, divisible and fungible etc.

    The problem with out current fiat system is.

    It is a debt based currency. GET IT YET. It enslaves everyone. Not all money is equal. We arte tied to the worst of money and you want to ignore this problem or through platitudes at it.

    THE FUCKING MONEY SYSTEM MUST BE FIXED OR ALL ELSE IS FUTILE. EXAMINE THE MONEY SYSTEM.

    Read the creature from Jekyll Island and you will then understand.

    The controllers are killing and creating wars to sustain this system. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc. Not to mention the murder of the Russian royals and the killing of Lincoln, Kennedy etc. The two world wars.

    These are the powers arraigned against us. Change can only come from an aware people not just an enlightened leader. If the internet is not corrupted and taken over we have a chance to overthrow the despots. The truth will out.

    I have no blind spots but neither do I wear dark glasses nor a mask.

    • bonbon

      You still do not get it. The physical economy is ruined and you never mentioned so far, a single time a mumblin’ word about it.

      Part of the ruined rubble heap is the healthcare system – and when that goes, murder follows. And not a mumblin’ word about it.

      Step out of the goldplated bubble and talk about economics.

      At least DMcW mentions mars-bars, more than the goldbugs!

      • You are the moron. Not a mars bar, a fruit and nut bar. The use of the current money system distorts the measurements that in turn cause the misallocations that in turn ruin the economy. What else is talked about other than economics.

        Gold will stabilize the world economy. The Chinese know, the Russians know, the whole world knows but our mis-educated western economists.

        • bonbon

          “Gold will stabilize the economy” AT THE CURRENT disaster level. Are you totally nuts? It will cause murderous physical deflation as the Specie Resumption Act did heralding the FED. No-one with any kind of economics history would ever propose another Long Depression, to defend and abstract “stabilization”. Drop the Brutish Gold Standard mantra – it is explicit genocide.

          • No, the current fixed valuation in US dollars by the federal reserve is $45 per ounce.
            The value of the US dollar is so depreciated, as are all other fiat debt based currencies, That the value as measured in dollars will be multiples of its current setting. Nobody knows exactly but calculations have been made that to expunge the debts the setting will be in the mega thousands an ounce.

            Anything for 20,000 to 200,000 per ounce. It depends somewhat if fractional reserve accounting is continued or not. Currently the London bullion market used a ratio of 100:1 as there is only about 1 unit of gold available for every 100 traded. It requires very little to be asked for delivery to break the current system and cause financial collapse of derivatives to ricochet around the world. We live on the knife edge of sustainability of the current system.

            As 5fingers says the results of the fiat money system are unknowable except that collapse is inevitable. It is the results of the collapse that are unknowable but can be guessed at based on past experiences going back centuries.

  25. in the meantime the medical system can not be afforded as the economy is hollowed out by the fiat debt based money system and the peoples resources are channeled to more debt payments, interest payments and increased taxes.

    fix the money system or the rest of society decays.

    • bonbon

      The bonuses are paid to tell the sick ” the medical system can not be afforded as the economy is hollowed out by the fiat debt based money system and the peoples resources are channeled to more debt payments, interest payments and increased taxes.”

      Exactly as Peter Orzag, Ez-Kill Emanuel praise Obamacare for.

      Do you see the golden trap you have been herded into?

      • You twisted my statement.
        you are sick. No medical plan can cure you, more’s the pity.
        you are a nasty piece of work.

        • bonbon

          But that’s what the Ariel “nudge-nudge” wink-wink behaviorists, so admired by DMcW, want – to brainwash us to expect no healthcare at all. And big bonus’s are payed for effort. Goldbugs have nothing whatsoever to add, nothing other than to say it’s the fault of “fiat” money. About as much pabulum.

      • No golden trap bon bon.
        Actions are being taken by honourable men to put systems in place to free us from the lies and deceit of the paper markets. Bare naked fraudulent shorting takes place. BUT the physical demand will overpower the fraudsters and a free gold will free the people.

        The corrupted money system we have (Never acknowledged by the proponents of central banking such as bonbon) oozes its corruption throughout society until we collapse and decay.

        Honourable men will step forward to (no bonuses asked or given) establish honest markets that mankind will be freed of these parasites. That day is at hand.

        http://www.jsmineset.com/2013/11/22/my-mission-on-our-behalf/

        • bonbon

          And those “honorable men” want the British Gold Standard, leading directly to a killer Long Depression, again, of catastrophic proportion. All in the name of an ideal.

          The could have and should have known the results of their actions – to quote the damning judgment at Nürnberg.

          Glass-Steagall deals with the fraudulent and corrupt banking sector, as everyone knows by now. Meanwhile massive intervention for Reconstruction immediately begins without loosing a step or a night’s sleep.

          • The recession/depression is not caused by the use of a proper money system. The cause of it is baked in the cake of the ingredients used to create the boom.
            A debt based issuance of credit causes the boom. Historically it always ends in a bust. It is just a matter of timing.
            Not a case as you suggest of blaming the medicine for the disease.

    • Here is another good read to put you on the path to knowing who runs the world. Why all out income taxes go to pay the interest on the national debt and so there is no money to look after the people. That means inadequate mental and health care.

      http://s6.zetaboards.com/Bill_Still_Reforum/topic/8850740/1/

      • bonbon

        Odd omission there on the bank bail-outs, a foisted “debt”, gulped by politicians and regurgitated on the voters.

        And to to be then told by apologists, to drop dead waiting for healthcare, make us all puke.

        I suspect DMcW was retching writing the article.

  26. Paul Divers

    There are many different forms of motivation David. Today I heard about a family with three boys who were all born with a gene defect that is incurable and means they will all probably die in their teens or early twenties.

    The family will need money and lots of it over the next few years for medical treatment and I am wondering if there is anything we can do to raise awareness. I will offer my skills and talk to the person who know knows the family about setting up a campaign website to collect donations. Would some of you guys spread the word?

    I have my own troubles but wanting to help others is part of my nature and not something for which I need a cash incentive. I know there are many people in Ireland who feel the same and who would willingly contribute to help this family.

    The types of people you are referring to in these hypothetical studies on incentivisation are not normal. We know they are cold blooded or at least show no evidence of having warm blood. They are out of touch. Totally.

    So what is motivation exactly?

    It is not something that can be measured with remuneration because then how do you explain all the people throughout history who do did great things without expecting anything in return?

    Motivation is something that comes from inside and if you need cash to get your shit together and perform then you are in the wrong job.

    Jock Stein was paid buttons but his immortality will ensure his memory is priceless and worth more than all the gold in Fort Knox to the Irish Diaspora. Like I said. Priceless. Leading by example.

    We are all the same tribe and those who value the tribe will help the tribe and ask for nothing. Irish people have lost some of their character with all the Celtic Tiger nonsense but their hearts are still in the right place. You know it and I know it so Keep The Faith.

    Mise le meas.

  27. joe hack

    C. S. Lewis died 22nd Nov 1963 as did lot’s other people . I wonder how much the mars bar seller gets paid in crumlin hosp – 8.65ph an incentive to be exploited on many levels. I don’t expect the mars seller has a medical plan

  28. SMOKEY

    I think you meant Mars Bars, Crunchie’s and Twix. Not “Twixes”
    Thats like saying I “texted” him.
    You should say I sent him a text or I sent her a text message, not I “texted her”
    Your small newsagent shop which is in the business of maximising sales of Mars bars, Crunchies and Twix….
    and of course saying “you ok” instead of may I help you or what can I get for you, no, they say “you ok”?
    Then when yhou say thank you they say “no bother” or “no problem”.
    Whatever happend to youre welcome?
    So I walk away thinking, we’re all doomed.
    I texted my friend to thank him for me Twixes and he said no bother.

  29. Aurophobia

    Seems a number of people on this blog suffer from the above.
    you will recognize your symptoms but there is a cure.
    Rational analysis of your problem will dispel the problem.

    * Gold phobia

    Auro-phobia is often confused with aero-phobia due to spellings, but they are entirely two different phobias.

    Symptoms of Aurophobia

    The most common symptoms of aurophobia (fear of gold) are the feelings of panic, terror, anxiety, tension, and dread. Amongst the physical symptoms are sweating, rapid heartbeat, and trembling. Whilst, other milder cases or manifestations of aurophobia in a person can cause sweaty palms, being jumpy, being cautious, being worried, stammering, and/or similar things like irrational statements on a blog.

    A person with aurophobia follow measures of extreme avoidance, like people suffering any kind of phobia and show extreme displeasure of anyone appearing to like gold for any reason.

    Diagnosing Symptoms of Aurophobia

    The best way to diagnose symptoms of aurophobia is to go through self-evaluations and questionnaires. It doesn’t always have to be shrinks, medications, and interrogations. You can do it yourself.

    It is not something you should trust to a medical practitioner clutching a Mars Bar.

  30. Foolish comments.

    As I said above,Joe, read The Creature from Jekyll Island before you next comment as by then you may have some understanding of what I am discussing.

    • joe hack

      Addiction has also reduced the wit of some great minds too!

      • whatamess

        As Joe knows well,if the dollar collapses, gold ought to “skyrocket” and “spike”(if only for a short time) and the thought of this makes some tiger monetarists salivate ! Piss on the fire,MY toast is done,what!

        Gold,a sound store of wealth, is simply a ‘put’ against an ever weakening dollar ( i.e.”tail risks” )

        The notion that gold will save us however, is an absurdity

  31. At least I sleep well. You are on night shift which is a total disorientation

    • joe hack

      Tony, you are peddling fear which can be a self-fulfilling prophesy (panic) if your gold alleviates your inner fear it would make sense that you alone have gold. In contrast, your behaviour on here contradicts your BELIEF in gold as you are trying to sell it or push it on others. Tony you appear to be unconvinced or are hoping others will buy gold so your stash will be worth more dollars.

      You base the value of your gold the number of dollars it is worth that in itself is tale tail i.e. you value dollars over gold and life, if you even tried to demonstrate that gold could feed the hungry – but cant as is it just money by another name.

      You and the likes Max Kiser peddle fear, there is no question that there are many truths in what you say but using fear to achieve your golds is not the work of someone concerned with society, it’s more ‘akin’ to I am alright jack! – As is certainly the case with Kiser.

      In time, in a long time sadly I expect that money will not exist after we have further evolved and become more intelligent, less fearful and find value in life itself. Tony, you are espousing a regression back to the likes of the middle ages, the dark dank ages of beggar thy neighbour, kill or be killed remember there is always someone fitter that you…

      Tony, you are a bankster, you are speculator, you are chasing more mars bars and you are just pissed that you are not as good at it as the likes the ‘fitter’ than you diamonds Jim.

      Fear not Tony and you will sleep the sleep of sleeps, stop and smell the flowers, there is more value in flowers than in gold money.

      • Joe , you are good at maligning character. Deal with the issues. You continually shoot at the messenger thus are unable to receive the message let alone debate it in real terms.

        “Tony, you are peddling fear which can be a self-fulfilling prophesy (panic) if your gold alleviates your inner fear it would make sense that you alone have gold. In contrast, your behaviour on here contradicts your BELIEF in gold as you are trying to sell it or push it on others. Tony you appear to be unconvinced or are hoping others will buy gold so your stash will be worth more dollars.

        I PROPOSE SOLUTIONS FOR THE NATION AND FOR THE INDIVIDUAL. I FACE REALITY AND TRY TO REACT ACCORDINGLY.
        I TRY TO HELP OTHERS IN MY DAILY LIFE AND IN MY PUBLISHED SUGGESTIONS. oNE CAN ONLY HELP THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES, OF COURSE.
        I HAVE PEDDLED, AS YOU PUT IT, NOTHING. YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF MY POSSESSIONS OR SAVINGS AND LITTLE UNDERSTANDING OF MY MOTIVES AND TAKE LITTLE NOTICE OF MY PUBLISHED ACTIVITIES.
        STOP PLAYING AMATEUR PHYCOLOGIST.

        You base the value of your gold the number of dollars it is worth that in itself is tale tail i.e. you value dollars over gold and life, if you even tried to demonstrate that gold could feed the hungry – but cant as is it just money by another name.
        AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT MAKES POOR MONEY OR EVEN THAT WHICH IS GOOD MONEY. ALSO YOU DO NOT RESPOND TO THE ONLY THING I HAVE ‘PEDDLED’ WHICH IT TO READ A SOURCE OF INFORMATION THAT I BELIEVE WILL WIDEN YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING. PRESUMPTUOUS OF ME I KNOW BUT I WISH TO HELP.

        You and the likes Max Kiser peddle fear, there is no question that there are many truths in what you say but using fear to achieve your golds is not the work of someone concerned with society, it’s more ‘akin’ to I am alright jack! – As is certainly the case with Kiser.
        THERE IS NO FEAR BEING PEDDLED. WHAT YOU SHOULD FEAR IS THE CURRENT REALITY OF THE TIGHTENING NOOSE OF CONTROL BUY THE ROTHSCHILS AND AFFILIATES. I POSTED ESSAYS ON THIS BLOG TO NOT ONE COMMENT ON THAT GOOD OR BAD, COMPLETE INDIFFERENCE IS EXIBITED. OR THAT IS THE REAL FEAR. FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS BEING CURTAILED MORE AND MORE BY THOSE SAME POWERS. TOU NO DOUBT HAVE HEARD OF THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE. IF NOT, CHECK IT OUT.

        In time, in a long time sadly I expect that money will not exist after we have further evolved and become more intelligent, less fearful and find value in life itself. Tony, you are espousing a regression back to the likes of the middle ages, the dark dank ages of beggar thy neighbour, kill or be killed remember there is always someone fitter that you…
        I REJECT THAT STATEMENT AS BEING TOTALLY WITHOUT FOUNDATION.

        Tony, you are a bankster, you are speculator, you are chasing more mars bars and you are just pissed that you are not as good at it as the likes the ‘fitter’ than you diamonds Jim.
        ANOTHER TOTALLY FICTICIOUS STATEMENT

        Fear not Tony and you will sleep the sleep of sleeps, stop and smell the flowers, there is more value in flowers than in gold money.
        IN MY DAY TO DAY LIFE, JOE, I WORK IN AN ORGANIC GARDEN. I HELP GROW NUTRICIOUS FOOD. I HEAR THE CRY OF THE EAGLE, THE CALL OF THE RAVEN AS I WATCH THE CLOUDS IN THE SKY AND THE RISE AND FALL OF THE SUN. I SEE THE DEAPENING SHADOWS OF THE WINTER AFTERNOON AND BREATH THE FROSTY AIR.
        I WILL CELEBRATE MY BIRTHDAY WITH MY CHILDREN THIS EVENING AND WILL RECALL MY FATHER’S PLEASURE AS HE WATCHED MY SUCESSES AND FAILURES AS EXPRESSED TO ME ON A BIRTHDAY CARD, AN ADULT, AND HE IN HIS 80TH YEAR.
        I RECALL THE STORIES OF MY GRANDFATHER HELPING OUT THE NEIGHBOURS AND HOW 800 PEOPLE CAME TO HIS FUNERAL FROM A TOWN OF LESS THAN 5000.
        I WATCHED MY BROTHER GIVE 14 YEARS OF HIS LIFE TO SUPPORT A FRIEND FROM AGE 88-102 WHO DIED JUST YESTERDAY. MY BROTHER GAVE A PROMISE THAT WAS UPHELD AND THIS MAN WAS NOT SUBJECTED TO THE DEGRADTION OF A NURSING HOME BUT LIVED A FULL LIFE UNTIL JUST WEEKS AGO. AT AGE 95 HE FLEW 8 TIME ZONES TO ATTEND MY DAUGHTERS WEDDING. HE BECAME AN EXTENTION OF OUR FAMILY.
        I SAIL THE COASTAL OCEAN AND NOTE THE WINDS AND TIDES. I PLEASURE IN THE ORCA SITINGS AND THE SPUME OF A WHALE. THE SALMON ARE RUNNING AGAIN AND A TRIP IS DUE TO THE GOLDSTREAM PARK FOR A VIEWING OF THE SPAWNING.
        I DON’T HAVE A LOT OF TIME FOR SMELLING FLOWERS , JOE.

        • joe hack

          Your wit is with you today.

          I do not presume that you only read confirmation bias but it does come across that way.

          You do presume that people on here do not read SOME of the gold stuff that you read but I look at the sources of it and it is for the most written by the addicted or those with agenda.

          As I have said to you many years ago gold will not change human nature (but gold as item has a had a strange feverish effect on people) nor am I fixated on what us humans use as money (gold, rock, paper) or what name we put on it.

          I care less what the tool is but more how it is used and how is ruled on this have some agreement but you made not have noticed.

          What is strange about your replies is that you continually bring up stuff that you know I am in agreement with; it seems it is you that does not read or at least you who read the bits you want.
          To date you have not addressed how gold would change the Behaviour Of People your replies on this amount a childish fantasy in that everyone should do what you believe in but they won’t and they don’t the world is not based you.
          It is a big bad place, humans are not Borg or mere little Tony clones- and that is a good thing.
          There are many people worse off than you and they look after their folks, there are no medals for it, get off the plinth you put yourself upon.

  32. joe hack

    The banking industry is a crime against the person, as is the rape of money which was allocated for the health of a nations children and adults, these things are not exclusive of one another, they are one same – a crime against the person.

    People died and are suffering now, this is a result the lawlessness within the money system, it is not because of gold/money or paper/money but because humans are human, and humans need to police their nature.
    If we can police the roads with something as simple as yellow line, why can we not police money, which causes more harm?

    What is happening in the banking sector is not unusually it is the norm at many levels, we managed to bring in smoking bans and seat belt wearing enforcement laws – There is more damage done to people’s health due to the addicting to money than there is from many other forms of addiction.

    How many mars bars can one person eat!

    • “The banking industry is a crime against the person, as is the rape of money which was allocated for the health of a nations children and adults, these things are not exclusive of one another, they are one same – a crime against the person.”

      Look as far as you can see into the banking system Joe to see the deliberate plan to attain world dominion. You will see that applying anew a version of GS is insufficient and why the current money system must be dismantled and replaced with a totally stable system not based on debt.

      “The Creature From Jekyll Island” explains it all. It is a brilliant book and an easy read. Once you are started it will not easily be put aside. Author is G. Edward Griffin.

      I will pay for it if you will buy it and read it Joe!! That is a public promise to you. When you have read it just tell me and I will forward your costs!!

      • joe hack

        lol

        I have already read it just send the cash now! Oh I have read other books too any chance you might send me cash for them too.

        Did the English not tell the Irish what books they should read – censorship a dictate.

        GS is not enough nor do I care what it called – that bonbon not me.

        • Well Joe, you saved me from mailing you a couple of ounces of silver, the poor man’s money!!!
          Yes the English did the same thing here in the 1840′s
          The natives were put in residential schools, abused too, forbidden their own language and customs. Deliberately infected with smallpox too, to wipe out the population.

          A lot of similarities with the treatment of the Irish. Bigotry has no boundaries.

  33. bonbon

    They say there is a long cultural memory of the Pest, Plague. And certain things evoke alarm. There is also a long memory of Famine, Depressions, and again certain events evoke alarm. We have the W.H.O now to watch for signs of pandemics, and prevention. We have no such “body” watching for the lethal signs of Depression, dep-population, all polite words for genocide. These indications must be looked for and made public from numerous reports.

    The only reason to brush a pandemic or depression under the carpet is willful population reduction. Bertrand Russell bemoaned the lack of a Black Death per generation, in his “Impact of Science on Society”.

    Have Bertrand Russell’s owners decided on a Depression per generation, as much more effective than a Black Death?

    The WHO must permanently watch for Pandemics, but a deliberate cull is underway.

    We, in Ireland, had this in 1846.

  34. bonbon

    Not sure what DMcW is trying to say. His idol Mr. Ariely belongs to the troupe around Obama who organized Obamacare, the current disaster. Obamacare is applied behavioral economics from Peter Orzag and Ezekiel Emanuel – known as Ez-kill Emanuel.

    Degenerates Surround A Nero-Like President; Who Controls Them?

    “Note by the way, that this Ariely, another Israeli emigre, has made himself a “pain and pleasure suit, to measure how we combine pain (caused by extreme hot or cold temperature) in one part of our body, and pleasure in another…”.

    Jeremy Bentham’s Hedonistic Calculus with a nudge and a wink.

  35. joe hack

    “Not sure what DMcW is trying to say.”

    Not sure what BonBon is trying to say.

  36. bonbon

    Strange the “libertarians” here never mention the economy. Freedom from even the hint of an economy? That is no freedom at all. Freedom from hunger, want, ignorance, and a job that pays a decent living :

    Whatever Happened to Franklin Roosevelt’s “Freedom from Want”?

    FDR’s commissioned Painting

    FDR’s “Four Freedoms” Speech: Freedom by the Fireside

    FDR’s Four Freedoms :

    “In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

    The first is freedom of speech and expression — everywhere in the world.

    The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way — everywhere in the world.

    The third is freedom from want — which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants — everywhere in the world.

    The fourth is freedom from fear — which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor– anywhere in the world.”

    • All these freedoms will be denied /eroded by the banksters currently in control. The control is exercised through the control of the nations’ money. It must be regained to attain (retain) these freedoms. That means destroying the fiat debt based money system and reverting to a free mans’ money and free choice in what is used as money.
      This is not understood by one in a million; that is 1% of the 1%

      All should read the Creature from Jekyll Island.

      • 5Fingers

        Stop prescribing. You are just like doctors pumping drugs…same batch for everyone and we know where that leads us.

        It is out of control. Fcek it. This is bigger than us all including bankers. A change will spawn a new norm. May as as well tear up the rule book.

        The reason you assign so much godlike powers to bankers is that it is the basis of all you long winded arguments. It is merely a narrative fallacy based on one chain of logic that will never happen. Why? Its priced into the market… What you should be scared of us what no one knows…that what will get us.

        • Peek behind the curtain to beyond the bankers. It apparent to those prepared to look. There is a master plan. The results may be unpredictable but statistically accurate within the standard deviations 19 times out of 20 :)

        • whatamess

          5Fingers,

          “It is out of control.Fcek it”.

          While i appreciate your ‘ying’ to life’s ‘yang’,the world’s problems need solutions,right?

          Your clear disdain for corruption is shared,but when you say “not a single instance in history where planned anything worked” i can only think of a stunned deer in headlights and the beams’ intensity has induced a state of amnesia?

          and this “be careful not to overrate “mind” shtuff ?? That what separates us from baboooons ! C’mon 5 Fingers !!!

          and you earlier contributions of “There is no global law to allow implementation and if there was, the real money would scarper” and “priced into the market” are both conclusions, where you’ve stopped thinking, stopped investigating and given up ,ending your frustraction, with a “pacifier”.

          And please..don’t tell me what i know and what i don’t know,I KNOW THE LAW!

          2mins
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ummgnvQchM

  37. bonbon

    JFK on economics 6 speeches. The amnesia must be lifted after the shock of 1963.

  38. whatamess

    Well today’s match against New Zealand was a display of “life’s a game of inches”

    Ireland’s performance was magnificent!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSDhhZtRwFU

  39. bonbon

    It’s a bit odd that DMcW mentions Healthcare but can only spot mars-bars.

    Evidence-Based Medicine: Treating by Chance, Cathy M. Helgason, M.D.

    Behavioral “medicine” tries to eliminate the thinking process. Hospital administrators are bonus’d to treat patients by chance, statistics.

    The evidence is clear, and the arguments also, for the dock.

    • 5Fingers

      The article correctly points out that applying casino stats to a science for modelling or prediction is just bad science. It assumes a an underlying structure with well defined probabilistic rules of that of a casino.

      Unfortunately emergent behaviour is not predictable and may never be. Much may be unknowable. The approach should not be focusing on adding but on taking away to get some idea of outcome.

      • whatamess

        Pointed out here numerous times – A “money” economy has a mission – to be a casino !

        “a change will spawn a new norm” – without design , and spontaneously i suppose ?? Let’s forget humanity’s creativity and ability of intervention eh ! That’s the sad story of the gazelle and bison !

  40. joe hack

    It is a good thing that David McWilliams has started to notice that human behaviour is the main reason we are where we are.

    In the last few months he has started talking about the irrational behaviour of the human condition the next phase will hopefully address possible ways to control it – policing the human condition.

  41. EMMETTOR

    The whole Marsgate episode did give me a good laugh, listening to Brendan Howlin (Wolf) wringing his hands and saying things like “We need to have transparency…” etc. He was using “We” as in “the people” as if he was merely a normal punter and not one of the few people who could actually do something about this. What a plonker. By the way, this blog is getting increasingly crazy, it’s really getting to be a bit of a madhouse. The subject in hand is dropped after a few posts and the usual suspects post the usual nonsense. There clearly are some intelligent people on here but noting meaningful and little that’s rational is emerging. I’m unemployed and likely to remain so but even I don’t have have time for this, Please Try Harder. Thanks.

  42. Says I must send a report if I wish to receive emails.
    So, “Reporting for duty—-Sir”

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