November 14, 2013

We just can't afford to lose the vital services of credit unions

Posted in Banks · 145 comments ·
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‘Teenage Kicks’ wouldn’t have been recorded without the Credit Union. It’s hard to imagine Derry without the Undertones. Today Derry is a very different place to the Derry of the mid-1970s when the band formed but, for this visitor, Derry and The Undertones still go together. And it wouldn’t have happened without a £400 loan from the very credit union that John Hume set up in 1960 – the first ever in Ireland.

Looking out from the city walls over the Peace Bridge towards the Waterside, the Foyle flat and translucent in the crisp morning sun, the city looks photoshop pretty. This is a 21st Century Facebook Derry, basking in the final moments of the Year of Culture – miles away from the black-and-white, rented television Derry of my childhood.

Back then, Derry was a failed place where unfortunate “keyholders” were advised by UTV newsflashes to return to their premises; but it also had the unambiguous success of a few young lads from the Bogside on ‘Top of the Pops’, singing about teenage promise, some bloke called ‘Jimmy Jimmy’, the excitement of the summer and know-all cousins who “flicked the kick” at Subutteo.

Today the place is rebuilt. The glass and chrome of the property boom and massive investment have replaced the steel bars of the Troubles. Sandinos bar and cafe beside the bus station serves Latin American coffee underneath a large print of Che Guevara, wedged between the clenched fists of the Black Panthers’ flags on either side of printed messages from Nicaragua’s Sandinista movement. Derry is still different – half student revolutionary, half property developer.

But one constant has been the Derry Credit Union, founded by John Hume who saw that the rationing of credit was like the rationing of public housing. Those who owned credit determined who got credit and thus ruled the country. The local bank managers were Protestant, lending to Protestants and excluding the Catholic majority of the city. Hume understood that credit was a civil rights issue and the Derry Credit Union was much more than a proxy bank; it was a fundamental part of the civil rights movement.

In a recent interview in the ‘Derry Journal’, Billy Doherty, the drummer from The Undertones, explained how the Credit Union was instrumental in supporting them.

“With all up-and-coming bands, one of the most challenging things is how they can afford to buy musical equipment. This was certainly the case for The Undertones. We all came from modest backgrounds, with no easy money about to buy band equipment.

“Thankfully, we had arguably one of the best financial institutions on the planet to depend on, and for us that was Derry Credit Union.

“In 1978, Michael Bradley, our bass player, secured a loan from the credit union to buy me my first brand new professional drum kit.

“We got a loan of £400, and with the money that we earned from our weekly shows in the Casbah, a local venue in Derry, we managed to pay back the loan.

“Like thousands of people from the town we had the help of a local, dependable financial co-operative that supported the community and I’m so grateful for the wonderful service that Derry Credit Union provided.”

This is why the crisis in Irish credit unions is so distressing. Credit unions provided money for people who the banks wouldn’t touch. The credit unions provided small loans to small people, not big loans to big borrowers. This is an essential service – half financial, half social.

Credit, in the right amounts and spent on the right stuff, is crucial. For example, if a family has no access to credit they can’t plan for the future. Take a family that wants their children to go to university but can’t afford the immediate outlay.

Traditionally, without a loan to cover essential costs, this family would have to forego college and their kids would have had to go out and get a job. Then came the credit boom and we now know that the credit unions lent out against property and made the same mistakes as many of the banks. Why did the credit unions follow the banks into excessive lending?

Arguably, the banks were driven by the tyranny of that shallow ideology – shareholder value.

They had share prices, which were linked to short-term profits, determined by bank lending much, much more than what it was taking in on deposits. Remember deposits are liabilities to the banks (things they have to pay out on), while loans are assets (things they get paid for). So the logic of high share prices generated an equivalent high risk because the banks confused high prices for low risk when in fact high prices create high risk. But the credit unions – with no share prices to terrorise them – didn’t have to chase the market. Understanding risk is so crucial to operating any financial operation. The thing about risk is that it is almost always a function of price. When prices are high and everyone wants a piece of the action, the prices tend to go up and up. This means they are driven far above fair value by the effervescence of the herd. Each month’s figures evidencing yet more price rises, attract yet more new money. Over time people confuse higher prices for lower risk when in fact the opposite is the case. The credit unions that are now in trouble didn’t appear to have this risk process inbuilt and they simply mimicked the banks.

More egregiously, it can be contended that they had less reason to do so because due to their co-operative and mutual characteristics, they didn’t have shareholders to worry about.

Now the credit unions will have to rebuild themselves. This will probably involve lots of mergers. It would be a disaster if the regular banks made a move on the weakened credit unions.

The leadership of the credit unions must stand up now, explain their loses and promise their members that credit unions will get back to basics.

Lending and credit are the beginning of a process that can unleash creativity as we saw with The Undertones. We can’t afford to lose the essential lubricant that is the credit unions.

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    • Gan Euro

      Great piece of writing.

      But remember getting a loan has been made more difficult with the move to make loans over €200 dependent on filing personal financial details ranging from the expenditure on breakfast this morning to the cost of that packet of Tayto last Tuesday.

      • rasher1972

        The problem in Ireland in relation to the credit union movement is that they haven’t evolved. I have lived in Australia for 12 years and work with a credit union (now mutual bank. I.e 100% member owned) and we offer all the products and services that the banks offer. Main difference is that it is really easy to avoid paying any fees and lending rates are lower than the major banks. Over here I have access to my account via a visa debit card. If I withdraw $150 or more from an ATM (any ATM in Australia) then I don’t pay any fees. I also have free EFTPOS transactions (ie paying for items and getting cash out at point of sale) I have written to David about this before and even the Irish League of credit unions, unfortunately without reply. What I believe would make a massive difference to credit unions in Ireland and a real option for members to do their everyday banking there is Visa debit card access. If it’s done over here then it is simply viable to be done in Ireland. Also critical to this would be internet banking where the member has the option to transfer money to other accounts as well as pay bills. The credit union movement in Ireland needs to explore this immediately. If it means travelling to Oz and speaking to the right people then so be it! In relation to lending, I believe credit unions didn’t have proper lending processes in place in the past. I.e proper verification of a members financial position. A board of directors made up of local people with no credit assessment history/ability. This has all come home to roost now. Remember at the end of the day credit unions lend out members money as their only source of funding, therefore they must do the property checks and be responsible. If there is enough will from the credit union movement in Ireland as well as it’s members, then why can’t the credit unions in Ireland become like Australia and give the banks REAL competition. I would be happy to facilitate making the connections with the right people down under!

        • Largely ditto for Victoria BC. I have been a CU member since 1967. They act in all respects like a bank.
          My account is free of fees and no minimum deposit limits etc. Free atm at CU Too but not through bank ATM
          Charge me $10 to receive wired funds though :)

  1. Adam

    Credit Denied…….please apply again .

    • They can stick their credit up their arse John. I don’t need it. Good morning to you Sir.

      • Paul Divers

        Have some class Adam. ‘They may place it somewhere dark’.

      • 5Fingers

        Is not about you…nothing personal. Credit denied. By the way, we are confiscating your family, relatives past present and future and all your other assets (same time scale) to bail in the banks so they can compete with the CUs. We trust you understand.

        • Who is going to say that to me Philip?

          I’ll be gone, there’s no where on this planet I am ‘not allowed’ to live.

          What ‘assets’ can they take off me? My only asset is my daughter and she’ll be well looked after, not to worry.

          • Banks are about TIME they take it with them always and if they have your name they have U2

          • Simply keep you assets out of the banking system Adam. Have all in hand including stock and bond certificates. Leave nothing in a safety security box either.
            Keep a checking account with only enough for day to day operations.

            Hi to Dominique
            Take care

          • 5Fingers

            We are the assets of our kids – not the the other way round. How they may be looked after is uncertain. We try our best. So in a nutshell, we have ourselves to protect and we need to manage risk accordingly. Spreading risk to improve survival (usual time honored tactic) means engaging trust of others and that is called credit. Whether it is a favor or a pint or a few quid, I owe ya one…its just another form of neighborliness. CU is merely an extension of that and so should banks…but nuff said.

          • 5fingers
            giving credit has basically two meanings as I understand the general use.
            A is to offer a loan in the expectation of being repaid. Or receiving a good before payment is made in the expectation of receiving payment. One is trusted to make the payment and not default.
            B. one is given credit for having knowledge or having done a good deed etc. This credit requires no payment in return while it can be part of a contract it is but an acknowledgement of a positive and trust is not the issue.
            IMHO a community functions better when there is no charge asked but volunteerism is prevalent. On the Canadian prairies with the extreme weather faced by settlers many things were done by the community without thought of payment in return,

            A neighbours house or barn burned down and all, who could, would be involved in a house re-building or barn raising. Thus the people gift to each other. A gift freely given imposes no obligation so no-one within such a community owed anybody anything for such activity.
            They would however be expected to volunteer to help others (Is that volunteering? :-)
            The concept of volunteering has been set aside with the advent of the welfare state but as times get tougher it will likely return again. My father often volunteered me . “My son will come over and help you with that”, was all was said. No obligation was created, but the help was given. It felt good to do so.

      • Adam

        In this chapter ‘Subscribe’ has new clothes and you are its Supreme Author that is revered on this site .

        These moments have a new experience and this word has a new currency that exchanges new values in a Soup Kitchen .

        Our Host has brought us into this house that has no ‘nice room’ and all of us are surprised to recognise so many ‘subscribing’ .Our pockets only have change or stamps and our coffers are empty .

        You are as usual first in the queue to take the spoils and maybe afterwards you will find another location to reap the leftovers for a busking song.

        Adam , this morning we are all queueing too .Some of us for a wage and some for what we can get and others just gather that some kind stranger might give them a thought .

  2. ps200306

    So the Credit Union is responsible for The Undertones, huh? I use to cry when they came on Top of the Pops, they were that bad.

  3. Paul Divers

    Wonderful writing that brought back memories.

    I smiled when remembering the black and white rented telly and remember the day we got a rented color set from the same shop. It was life changing and I remember the thrill of running home from school that day in 1972.

    A mate said to me ‘your colour tele is in the hoose ya lucky b’ and when I got in the old man was sitting in his chair at the window smoking a plain fag and reading a detective novel.

    The tele didn’t come and we got you a bookcase with a set of encyclopedias he told me. My chin hit the floor and I stood staring that this huge cupboard with wooden shutters. He had quare humour sometimes and I stood there thinking wtf.

    Anyway I opened it and was completely blown away. Will never forget it.

    There was the insurance man who came to collect his shilling every friday and on a saturday we would go into Clydebank and pay for the tele and any loans we had from the Co-Op etc.

    You were told to get a shoe box and tape it up and cut a hole in the lid for chucking in your pennies for the summer holiday. Take care of the pennies and they will take care of you.

    We never had any dealings with banks and my parents never had a bank account in their lives. We didn’t need banks and any credit facilities we needed were close to home.

    Today the place is a shopping centre and all that life is no more.

  4. 5Fingers

    +1 to DMW. Best yet.

  5. Adelaide

    NEWS-a quarter of all Credit Unions will likely need to be bailed out.

    But what about the children, their piggy-banks, who will guarantee their piggy-banks?! They are simply Too Cute To Fail.

    “How A Nanny-State Guarantee Fosters Reckless Abandon- Banks And Credit Unions And Children’s Piggy-Banks – Why Savings Are No Longer A Financial Privilege But A Guaranteed Inalienable Right Without Risk – How Adult Savers Became Mollycoddled Children and How Their Deposit Invigilators Behaved as Children – Remove The Comfort Blanket From The Adult-Children So That They Can Grow Up And Fend For Themselves”

    • willie

      HI A FAMILY MEMBER OF MINE BOUGHT SOME TRANSPORT(VAN) FOR HIMSELF,
      HE TRADED UP AND BORROWED 20K FROM HIS CREDIT UNION AT A RATE OF 6.9%APR, HE HAS THE MONEY IN HIS SHARES TO EASILY COVER THE LOAN,WHEN I TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT THE CREDIT UNION WERE LENDING HIM HIS OWN MONEY WITH NO DIVIDEND ON HIS SHARES AND CHARGING HIM FOR THIS HE DID NOT SEEM TO MIND. WHEN I EXPLAINED TO HIM THAT THE INTEREST ON THE FIRST YEAR ALONE WOULD COVER THREE YEARS OF PROPERTY TAX ON HIS HOME HE SAID HE FELT SICK,IT TOOK TIME FOR HIM TO REALISE WHAT I WAS EXPLAINING, HOW MANY PEOPLE DOES EVERYBODY KNOW IN THE SAME SITUATION,I STARTED A BUSINESS WITH A LOAN FROM MY GRAND FATHER AND TURNED IT INTO A VERY SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS REASON WHY NO BORROWINGS ONLY HARD WORK,LONG HOURS,THE MORAL REWARDS FOR TURNING NOTHING INTO SOMETHING IS GREAT ALSO,WE ARE A NATION THAT IS FINANCIALLY ILLITERATE UNEDUCATED IN FINANCIAL TERMS FAMILY MEMBER A GOOD EXAMPLE.
      P.S
      WHEN I ASKED MY FAMILY MEMBER WHY HE WAS BUYING A NEW VAN AND THAT THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH HIS OLD VAN,HIS RESPONSE WAS STRANGE, HE WAS CONSTANTLY LOOKING AT OTHER VANS IN HIS TRADE PASSING BY IN TRAFFIC THINKING THEY WERE NICE AND AS THEY PASSED DECIDED TO LOOK AT THE REG TO SEE WHAT YEAR IT WAS THINKING WHAT WAS HE DOING WRONG,STRANGE BUNCH WE IRISH ARE.

  6. Adelaide

    The Max Keiser Report discusses his run-in with Karl Whelan at Kilkenomics.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNXmL771mBA&list=SPPszygYHA9K2ZtV_1KphSugBB7iZqbFyz&ind

  7. A great article, real skilful clarity in the writing, David. On Sun evening at Langton’s Set Theatre, the final show “Ten More Ideas To Help Ireland Recover and Grow” had an interesting exchange between a fella and the panel about co-operatives and worker owned capitalism on the island of Britain. John Lewis, etc. Like John Lewis worker collectives, worker owned finance through Credit Unions was one of the great cultural and political achievements of the Industrial Revolution.

    In Britain, that whole heritage of “Building Society” finance was swept away in an orgy of ‘greed is good’ short-termism whereby The Halifax became a bank, became HBOS, bankrupted the country via bailout, etc. Just like Anglo-Irish “pulling it out of their arses”, in that one story is another summation of all that’s gone wrong on both these Isles of Wonder:

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/hbos-fatcats-who-forced-bank-1812504

    In the previous thread on Draghi, there was some discussion about the power to create money and credit. Don’t worry, when the next crisis hits, the banks go belly up and the whole process of re-engineering the financial system begins in earnest, including debt-free Sovereign money creation and non-usurous credit facilities.

    Is there anything more pathetic than the sight of grandad, dad and son in new sports kits “paid for” by pay-day loans? Football (soccer!) was destroyed by predatory finance. Ditto pub culture. Also working-class entrepreneurialism was ruined by overlord financing. It’s said that sports and pop music used to be the one sure way out of the council estate ghetto, but there was always the building firm, the pub chain, the many SME entrepreneurial routes now closed by Big Finance.

    This article makes me reminisce on working class routes in the mixed Catholic/Protestant cultures of Small Heath and Birmingham, with the Peaky Blinders and Plastic Paddys all off to watch The Undertones for relief from the tension and poverty of opportunity, if not ambition in late 70s Britain. Coming from “Alternative Ulster” they were always welcomed warmly. The pubs are now closed or turned into Balti houses or poncey eateries, the prawn cocktail set are still winding Roy Keane up (expect fireworks with O’Neill, etc) and the Norman Toraigh Coalition whores of Babylon Banksters are strutting around as if the crisis never even happened. Delusional Canuck Paddy Governor of BoE on C4 last night saying he wants to become a British citizen once he’s saved the country from reality by inflating house prices through endorsing “Help To Buy”, trashed the currency through low-interest rates and QE, and allowed ‘radical Austerity’ Coalition goverment to double the UK National Debt from 800billion to 1.4 trillion by 2015′s election. Several speakers at Kilkenomics warned that Britain is on a pile of gelignite. And remember, when it blows, Ireland goes up too due to failing to geo-strategically reposition trade after joining the doomed Euro project.

    DMcW’s final incendiary comments were very nourishing, to the effect that maybe Ireland needs to wake up and smell the coffee and buy Ryanair tickets for those feral capital corporates who won’t even pay 8% tax in a time of national emergency. I was told to trust him by a very important person, that he was a ‘pragmatic Patriot’, and he is revealing himself as such as we build towards the climactic centenary. On the first night, he seemed to be suggesting that the only real way forward was personal entrepreneurialism, a kind of ‘Privatisation of Hope’, which I found sobering. But his message was more nuanced. Entrepreneurialsim is very important, but hardly the answer in total. His words at the close of the festival were spot on, it’s a shame many didn’t get to hear them, but hopefully the DVD box set of this year and previous will actually materialise in good time. He also questioned the BAU assumptions that we all need more consumerist clutter in our lives, despite groaning closets. It was rather amusing to see the faces of some Cornucopian Lifestyle Commodity Fetishists when he did so.

    There were so many amazing moments and speakers/debates that it’s hard to process it all. My one mistake, like in my visit to Dublin in April, was trying to multi-task, do the ancestor worship/relatives stuff so I was on spin cycle like a giddy eejit for the first day or so, my brain exploding alongside my liver. I stayed at a great budget B&B a few minutes away, but next year it’s city centre epicentre for me. By the time you’ve eaten, showered, parked your car or walked, you’ve missed out on the chance of another show. It’s about the best thing I’ve been to in years, orders of magnitude better than Hay Festival, etc.

    The end of the festival was the best. A woman whose name I can’t find shared her therapeutic journey in CBT with a simply wonderful list of Ireland’s woes and misfortunes over the ages with a call and response with the audience where all had to reply “I’m Not To Blame!”. It was genuine genius stuff and MUST be made available to all, for ever.

    I’m amazed David hasn’t taken “Kilkenomics” on the road around the Diaspora capitals of Boston, Glasgow, London, Sydney, etc. I guess he’s not got the time and doesn’t allow money to rule his life.
    Probably have to vanish from this site now as ‘back to life, back to reality, back to the here and now’ has taken place. I’ve conquered the agoraphobia, the amnesia has lifted, and, as Damien Dempsey sang “sure, it’s all good”. Thanks to David for his patience in letting me recuperate here over the years and to all who’ve LOL’d or *rolled eyes* at my raving diatribes, but remember: “my online persona was made in a factory that may contain traces of irony”. One more ‘hallucinogenic diatribe’ in a while, then it’s farewell. But for now, some punk rockabilly from my favourite local band:

    The Del Ray Rockets: “Teenage Kicks”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz1__I-vRx4#t=46

  8. willie

    HI A FAMILY MEMBER OF MINE RECENTLY BOUGHT SOME TRANSPORT (VAN) FOR HIMSELF, HE BORROWED 20K FROM HIS CREDIT UNION AT A RATE OF 6.9% APR, HE HAS THE MONEY IN HIS SHARES TO EASILY COVER THE LOAN, WHEN I TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT THE CREDIT UNION WERE LENDING HIM HIS OWN MONEY WITH NO DIVIDEND AND CHARGING HIM FOR IT, HE DID NOT SEEM TO MIND, WHEM I EXPLANIED TO HIM THAT THE INTEREST FOR THE FIRST YEAR ALONE WOULD COVER THREE YEARS OF PROPERTY TAX ON HIS HOME HE SAID HE FELT SICK,HOW MANY PEOPLE DOES EVERYBODY KNOW IN THE SAME SITUATION,WE ARE A NATION THAT IS FINANCIALLY ILLITERATE WHEN IT COMES TO MONEY,I BORROWED MONEY FROM MY GRANDFATHER TO START A BUSINESS A LONG TIME AGO AND TURNED INTO A VERY SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS THROUGH HARD WORK , VERY LONG HOURS AND NO BORROWINGS,FINANCIALLY ILLITERATE FAMILY MEMBER COMES TO MIND,
    P.S
    WHEN I ASKED HIM WHY HE WANTED A NEW VAN THAT THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH HIS OLDER VAN, HIS REPLY WAS STRANGE INDEED, HE SAID WHEN HE WAS DRIVING AND IN TRAFFIC HE WAS LOOKING AT OTHER VANS IN HIS TRADE THINKING THEY WERE NICE THEN LOOKING AT THE REG TO SEE THE YEAR,STRANGE BUNCH WE IRISH ARE

    • Paul Divers

      Try caseconverter.com willie and put breaks between your sentences please. Your family member needs to grow up.

      Hi A Family Member Of Mine Recently Bought Some Transport (Van) For Himself, He Borrowed 20K From His Credit Union At A Rate Of 6.9% Apr, He Has The Money In His Shares To Easily Cover The Loan, When I Tried To Explain To Him That The Credit Union Were Lending Him His Own Money With No Dividend And Charging Him For It, He Did Not Seem To Mind, Whem I Explanied To Him That The Interest For The First Year Alone Would Cover Three Years Of Property Tax On His Home He Said He Felt Sick,How Many People Does Everybody Know In The Same Situation,We Are A Nation That Is Financially Illiterate When It Comes To Money,I Borrowed Money From My Grandfather To Start A Business A Long Time Ago And Turned Into A Very Successful Business Through Hard Work , Very Long Hours And No Borrowings,Financially Illiterate Family Member Comes To Mind,
      P.S
      When I Asked Him Why He Wanted A New Van That There Was Nothing Wrong With His Older Van, His Reply Was Strange Indeed, He Said When He Was Driving And In Traffic He Was Looking At Other Vans In His Trade Thinking They Were Nice Then Looking At The Reg To See The Year,Strange Bunch We Irish Are

  9. Paul Divers

    The Virginian (James Drury) and Trampus (Doug McClure) were wearing red and blue shirts respectively and there was a vista of summer green trees in the background. The colour was stunning and all the more so because I had never before been to a cinema to see a colour film. It literally took the breath out of me and left me speechless and feeling like the luckiest schooboy in Scotland

    I used to wonder what they meant when there was ‘no reception’. I thought the picture came through the plug and I had no concept of radio waves until I was in secondary school taking physics by the table-spoonful without sugar

    The next year we got a big red telephone and it was mind bending listening to the brother who lived 100 miles away. Is it really you? Aye it’s me ya clown who do ye think it is?

    The next year, 1974, we got a radio cassette recorder and that was when the real fun started

    • 5Fingers

      +1 this is nectar.

      • Paul Divers

        Hi 5Fingers I have some great news for you

        Your encouragement made me want to write the second post and you motivated me. All it takes is a heads up

        Tonight I wrote a blog post about a Motown song and tweeted it and five minutes after posting my inbox is full of activity on Twitter and it is all down to you.

        Thank you.

        Dont Walk Away Renee

        http://theramblingwest.blogspot.ie/2013/11/you-wont-see-me-follow-you.html

        This is what friends are for.

      • Paul Divers

        I rolled the two posts into one for you 5 Fingers. Maybe you could +1 it or email it to someone you know who might like it.

        http://theramblingwest.blogspot.ie/2013/11/the-colour-tele-and-co-op.html

        I will be writing more stories about the 1970s and I will be writing mainly for people my own age group who can relate but hopefully younger people will like it too. I grew up near Clydebank and have lots of rich memories of that old war weary town they call Little Donegal

        Recently I posted writing links on here as some of the guys are blogging and are thinking of writing books. I posted them for the reason I knew it would turn them into better writers if they read them. This is where the power comes from

  10. 5Fingers

    Effervescence is a part of the human condition. When being professional working at banking it should be an instant dismissal offence. Barmen should not be drinking while they work. Banks should not be assuming value at risk remains static just so they can be effervescent. But if the deal is they get their bonuses no matter what who can blame them.

    We need a community based credit scheme…where are those Kilkenny marbles?

    • Looks as if we need real asset based money. Savings for investment rather than interest bearing loans.

      Why the fixation on credit? We already have the world wide monetary system of the Ponzi scheme of money issued as a debt, bearing interest, charged directly to the taxpayer. Look at the devastation.

      The monetary system as practiced is the root cause of the current and past economic woes. It is an ever expanding money supply that is the definition of inflation. Inflation is the stealth robber stealing your past, present, and future earnings.

      The increased money supply is issued to the financial corporations and their allies who grow richer while those at the end of the economic chain see no gains but a constant devaluation of the purchasing power of their wages. Those on fixed income and static wages grow poorer by the day. The wealth gap increases.

      That is the result of a fixation on credit.

      • 5Fingers

        For me, credit is just another name for trust. Trust is a 2 way commitment which involves sharing risk and payback so you survive.

        Now, there are 2 ways of doing the above…use your existing pot of money (gold, confetti whatever you want really) and hope for the best (very brave) that you do not get wiped out due to a delay or problem not of your making….or…manage your exposure and bring others into the overall deal – Insurance, your relatives, banks and so on who between them survive as a whole. This is the reason for community, packs, herds you name it.

        In a normal sane world, any idiot holding onto a bad investment in the hope of it rebounding gets wiped out. With banks, that is what should have happened and I utterly agree that to print money to reflate the value of a bad investment or overinflate share prices to ridiculous price earnings ratios merely dilutes a share without improving performance. Criminal because banks are incentivised to be more stupid.

        DMW points out here that CUs are the only functioning banking system we have and we seem hell bent in making them stupid as well.

        • bonbon

          Gramm-Leach-Bliley makes banks stupid, done in your name. Glass-Steagall is anti-dummy.

          Economics for anti-dummies, anti-asphyxiation of pabulum, is urgently needed.

  11. joe hack

    Nostalgia – It is difficult to see a future in it but looking back in hindsight its future looking bright.

    John Bugg defies X-Factor style banking and euphonises old style raw talent over cooperate music /banking

    But you don’t have leave this blog to see that people invest in money for money sake and not for creativity – raw talent as it once was – the only difference between some on this blog and the wall street set is the size of their wallet i.e. they are just pissed they are not banking X-Factor style -right here on this blog today – it not what they say it what do that show what they have said is a meaningless diatribe – using money to make money – fuck the consequences Eh! lawlessness

    Yes, credit has its place but it needs policing so too does the egregious X-Factor!
    DMW – glass steagall!

    Great back-story in the above piece…

    • Jake Bugg – good singer songwriter indeed joe hack:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXnIMKceHkk

      They are calling him ‘the new Bob Dylan’ (I know) but he’s talented, way more so than the Undertones haha.

      Just winding up some people – it’s all a matter of taste of course.

      • joe hack

        YEP JUST REALIZED MY ITS AGE I GUESS NAMES NOT AS IMPORTANT_ -Jake BugG-_+ WHEN REALIZED I GOT THE NAME WRONG I CHECKED HIM OUT AGAIN AND HE HAS SONG NOT UNLIKE THE TONES….

        I WAS MORE A STIFF LITTLE FINGERS FAN THAN AN UNDER TONES FAN – THE UNDERTONES WERE MORE BLACK ROCK COLLEGE TYPES… DEFINITIVELY NOT SLF OR THE CLASH – BLACK ROCK MOMAM WOULD NOT APPROVE OF THAT LOT S-RUFF…F

  12. joe hack

    _ -Jake BugG-_+

  13. joe hack

    Nostalgia – It is difficult to see a future in it but looking back in hindsight its future looking bright.

    Jake Bugg defies X-Factor style banking and euphonises old style raw talent over cooperative music / banking,

    You do not have leave this blog to see that people invest in money for money sake and not for creativity – raw talent as it once was. – The only difference between some on this blog and the wall street set is the size of their wallets. i.e. they are just pissed they are not banking X-Factor style -right here on this blog today – it not what they say, it what they do that demonstrates what they have said is meaningless diatribe – using money to make money – fuck the consequences Eh! – Lawlessness!

    Yes, credit has its place but it needs policing so too does the egregious X-Factor!

    DMW – glass steagall!

    Great back-story in the above piece…

    • whatamess

      Yes Joe , when one looks behind the curtain ,the credit unions are just another train wreck in slow motion and 20/20 hindsight is wonderful.

      Now for some foresight!

      Have any of our politicians, or so called ‘experts’, or ‘think tanks, economists etc, arrived at any truthful solutions to date? But Bonbon does put forward a solution – Implementing GS being the crucial first step.

      While a long shot, GS would contribute in so many ways, as have been already posted here, so no need to rehash, but foremost, it is fire-walling Joe and Jane Bloggs from future KNOWN toxic gambling debts by the financial elite.

      VERY importantly also, GS is a mechanism that facilitates and will deliver the write-off of a massive chunk of odious debt (i.e. non-commercial paper) which removes the strangle hold! How about that for motivation to support GS?

      So we have the Kyle Bass ‘types’ observing that “it’s a complete write down”, as these debts are so so great, that they can never, and will never be repaid ! It would be naive, as I was 6 months ago, to think that those that are ‘owed’
      ( including UNsecured bondholders ) would choose, of their own volition, to surrender to requests of debt leniency or write offs. So rock and a hard place again!

      Intervening with GS now, is to me, the stick of dynamite needed to extradite us from this precarious position and shatter the debt millstone around our necks. This strategy of GS is certainly being committed to the public good, unlike the “dovish” like ,or rather canis lupus like – Janet Yellen’s destructive approach, as announced in the last couple of days, of her mindless intention “to keep the monetary spigots WIDE open” (QE) which is surely devoid of reason re monetary policy and will inevitably doom us all !

      (I’d love to yell or ‘howl’ at her -”No Yellen, the benefits clearly Don’t outweigh the costs, unless of course you’re a bankster!! “)

      Where’s the intervention everybody? Where’s that much needed ‘external force’ to stop this Russian roulette and unceremonious looting?

      Sovereign debts are unquestionably frightening!
      BUT it’s the “free markets” that have manoeuvred a unique and unprecedented chaotic position of US$14+ Quadrillion ‘worth’ (‘that’s a laugh!’) of a synthetic derivative market,, maintained by only a handful of TBTF private banks, that appear exempt of the law, and are currently CONTROLLING our money, food and energy etc…lock,stock,the lot!

      These TBTB are the bull’s-eye we need to aim for! GS requires a steady hand, nerves of steel and perseverance, but it can be done. This tyranny can end. What a “gallant stand” it would be! With intent,let’s blow the ballast tanks using Glass Steagall. Let’s give these rabid banking jackals a life threatening dose of the bends!

      “Life’s a game of inches” and while Elizabeth Warren has courageously rallied other senators re TBTF , the juggernaut of doom is still gaining mass, accelerating and heading right for us!

      I don’t want to be that deer caught in the headlights …not again

      Empty what is full…Fill what is empty…

      • joe hack

        Some great stuff there Mr. Whatamess Glass Steagall may be hindsight too but sometimes fitting a lock on the stable door is a good idea even the horse has bolted after all we don’t want to have no lock should we get a new horse – hindsight and foresight! – lol

        GS is not a long shot it was easy done before why not have tighter controls than GS, in hindsight GS failed as it was easily removed- a lesson learned in hindsight – lol

        “Life’s a game of inches” No, no, No your wrong, it’s a game millimetres…

        “Empty what is full…Fill what is empty…” keep half full?

  14. whatamess

    The root cause of the financial downturn as I see it,is demonstrated in the chronological order of the ’98 LTRO blow-out first and then the insane “consolidation” of The Graam Leach Bliley’s Act ’99, which basically detonated the financial floodgates, in an engineered fashion.
    From whence we were accelerated relentlessly for a decade+.

    And at warp speed ,the issue of the ponzi scheme of FIAT money (which some here still seem to think was a root cause )played but a secondary or tertiary sub-surface role in the destruction. After these two sequential detonations ,what happened would have played out anyway, but maybe just a slightly different timeline is all.

    • whatamess

      “Solutions are not a matter of taste”…absofuckinlutely!!

      Some here propose the banning of fractional reserve banking,close central banks and introduce sound money..great
      but where is the model for growth ? We NOW need to be prolific in our PLANNED endeavours in order to climb out of this deep chasm! We need a plan or a series of interconnected plans

      The reconstruction plans for the physical economy’s recovery that Bonbon contributes here, are as daring as they are creative. The craters created by the certainly engineered bubbles of derivative cults, need to be filled quickly and efficiently to restore ‘some’ real stability and create a solid and REAL platform for future progress of humanity, so thinking BIG, especially now, is surely an absolute must when facing these obvious realities ? So “dreaming of things that never were and asking why not” and using science as the backbone of the strategy for this physical recovery ,sounds to me a very purposeful “top down” strategy.

      Hey,GS is a long shot no doubt,but I worry that these other proposals,without a tandem growth strategy, are the quintessential “Hail Mary pass” and certainly a diversion!

      Considering how deeeeep the financial abyss currently is, hoping for and blindly trusting in “happenstance” or some pseudo spirit of entrepreneurialism just doesn’t cut it for me.
      Is the on-coming, out of f**king control juggernaut of systemic risk thwarted with anything other than GS – just think about it

      i’m off to my bed…on holidays and picture with no sound with herself,if you get me ?Ughhhh!

    • You have the cart before the horse.

      There can be no outsized boom and following bust without the fiat Ponzi money and fractional reserve banking.

      Thinking that the problems started ten years ago is quite like saying it is raining because of that cloud. The real answer is to be found in the total climatic situation. The sun, water vapour, spinning of the earth, plate tectonics, ocean currents,
      corresponding winds, high and low pressure zones.

      One has to get to the fundamentals. Look at the forest not the trees.

      In short, examine the history of money , its uses and abuses, its true nature. All else other than amending our phony money system will fail. Once that is done then all the rest mentioned will fall into place. GS is plaster on a broken bone or an aspirin for a heart attack. Might help a bit but does nothing for the basic problem.

      “The Creature from Jekyll Island” by G Edward Griffin is a good start and follow with “Paper Money Collapse” by Detlev Schlichter

      Then study a few essays from Dr.Jim Willie, and listen to this video now. In it you will hear which countries are invaded and attacked because the did not wish to use the US dollar for trade. Yes the money supply Ponzi scheme will continue until the people wise up and throw the banksters out for treason.

      http://goldenjackass.com/main5.html

      Listen to the Album “The Resister” by Carl Klang

      https://www.google.ca/search?q=the+resister+carl+klang&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7SKPT_enCA449

      • bonbon

        The fundamentals are ” sun, water vapour, spinning of the earth, plate tectonics, ocean currents, corresponding winds, high and low pressure zones.” ?

        The fundamentals of what exactly?

      • joe hack

        “You have the cart before the horse.” Not too sure, that it matters in a long line of horses and carts or if the horse is pushing and not pulling… Wild West…

        However, the base of the system is the major flaw but, a credit system is necessary and so too is rain and an umbrella!

        Solid policing and not Wild West style banking – lawlessness – it is a pity but there are bad and greedy people out there in utopias and some also perceive there level of greed as balanced.

    • whatamess

      sorry…

      LTCM of course

      not LTRO (ooops)

      as per the video link i posted

  15. The only national bank operating correctly is the post office

    • bonbon

      There is no national banking at the moment anywhere in the transatlantic region. Many are tricked by names. Since 2000, even the paragons of banks, the German Landesbanken, have been gutted and re-bailed out again and again. They all got into the “game”.

      Unless and only if Glass-Steagall is re-instated, no “bank” is safe.

  16. http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/federal-reserve-whistleblower-tells-america-the-real-reason-for-quantitative-easing

    This is what happens when you have a Ponzi scheme currency. Unlimited printing to monetize debt and buy bonds nobody else will. Insanity and GS does nothing for this. GS is a red herring, a straw man and waste of energy.

    Then the receiving banks use uncontrolled fractional reserve lending to increase that money 10-100 fold but nobody is borrowing anymore, even at negative interest rates. Welcome to stagflation. Depression in the physical economy and hyperinflation in the monetary economy.

    I forecast negative interest rates 20 years ago. Even then I could see that government stimulus had no end in sight.

    https://www.google.ca/search?q=untries+are+using+negative+interest+rates&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7SKPT_en&gws_rd=cr&ei=8P6GUueyHYiu2QWA14GYDA

    It was 10 years ago I figured out the structure of sound money and as Henry Ford said only one in a million understands or there would be a revolution overnight. Everyone is too busy picking up the scraps falling from the banksters tables, to notice what the banksters are devouring.

    The fraud is so large and all consuming that nobody will believe it possible.

    This did not start ten years ago or 100. It is centuries. People are so ill-informed that it will last centuries more. All dissenters like Iraq, Libya, Iran, North Korea are made into bogie men and offed.

    Same goes for the loan politicians like Garfield, Kennedy and Lincoln.
    There has to be a mass uprising to be successful but the welfare state has killed that likelihood. 52% of US citizens suck on the hind teat of the state taking more than they give and it is higher in Europe.

    Most of the bright minds on this blog are hooked. And our host will not even discuss these issues. What a waste of time. Writes to mislead and is praised for his efforts. Acting and entertainment is his forte, not economics. The mind is clouded by propaganda. The truth is avoided. It is too uncomfortable.

    Reports suggest that the audience disagreed with the Keynesian verdicts at Kilkenomics as they did last year. Seems the great unwashed are, in fact, more in tune than the experts. The people look for leaders to tell the truth but none are to be found. This can only end badly. Protect yourself.

    Jack Nicolson said. “”You can’t handle the truth”". Most can’t.

    • bonbon

      Now we are told “truth” springs forth from money ? The politicians and banksters certainly believe that. Wall Street put $350 million into politicians greasy hands to repeal Glass-Steagall. That bought the truthy utterances echoed here about horses and carts.

      As for Lincoln, JFK, Garfield, all murdered for attempting Hamiltonian banking and economics, and the list is longer.

      “It” started a long time ago, “It” being oligarchy, mankind’s only real enemy. Nation-states are the remedy, and Hamiltonian political economy. Anyone attempting this faces immediately the oligarchy, not merely some money.

      The Austrian School doth protest far too much, I fear, avoiding the mere mention of the oligarchy it belongs to. The razzle-dazzle of gold v. “fiat”, is rather theatrical, and very amateur.

  17. Try the reality zone. Keep you busy and off the blog for a couple of days.

    http://www.realityzone.com/currentperiod.html

    • bonbon

      Images of gold bullion all over it.

      • Well the rest of the world is accumulating gold bon bon and you and yours will be out in left field waiting for a fly ball to catch.

        • bonbon

          Accumulating pictures of ingots, grasping metal, is not a buoyant strategy in a sinking ship. Edgar Allen Poe put it best :
          A Descent into the Maelstrom.

          Some have functioning creative reason, as Poe shows, in his story-within-a-atory. There is a lot of gold on the sea floor, amongst the crabs and bottom feeders.

          • michaelcoughlan

            The world will be fine if it can find nourishment in bonbon rhetoric. I won’t be holding my breadth or depending on it though

          • Not accumulating figures of your imagination. But Bullion–real wealth and proper money.

            Gold comes from the life forces of the earth . gold comes from the torrid center and cools in veins, yes even on the ocean floor and in the volcanoes.

            It is even in the veins of the people and enhances the major organs of the body.

  18. Paul Divers

    Did I just see a duplicate post?

    These web platforms and front end frameworks sound great initially but when a site gets well used they can cause problems. Usually user input errors. Trying to keep them under control is often like trying to stop water pouring through a sock

  19. bonbon

    Redefining ‘Wealth’
    Monetary Systems vs. Credit Systems

    To put the issue of Credit Unions, National Banking in perspective, this short video goes to great lengths for those today who have forgotten what economics is all about.

    • bonbon

      Some here will like the “Banning the FED” chapter and precise reasons.

    • A credit system is a debt based system just like Hamiltonian banking involving the creation of a central bank controlled by the Rothchilds. We already have that thanks.

      As for the project involving North American water. It is simply Yankee imperialism dressed up as good works.

      You wish to usurp Canadian territory and displace thousands of people and change the whole ecology of the West. Stay at home bonbon and fix your own problems.

      • bonbon

        That is not correct. Such impulsive statements arise from monetaristic habits, precisely what the video addresses. Debt, if it were only money could be cancelled and the fictitious paper/digital debts will be, BUT the physical economy has been totally destroyed and must be made up.

        That can only be done with high-tech necessary inter governmental arrangements over vast areas. I am sure governments will very quickly see the reason in this as we split up the banks. Doors will be opened !

        Massive projects are on the table for Asia, Africa, the Arctic. And actually making up the physical economic debt is fun – it means work, progress, solving high tech problems, what people (except banksters) really want.

        • michaelcoughlan

          “That can only be done with high-tech necessary inter governmental arrangements over vast areas”

          Really?

          Castro/stallin/pol pot wouldn’t say at well.

          I suppose the first thing that will be necessary is to dig a big hole and shoot the whole of the middle-class (or what’s left of it) into the hole first as happened in those countries?

          • bonbon

            There you go again – the murderous lust breaks out all over. That is no surprise – it’s the Hayek disease.

          • michaelcoughlan

            Sd

          • michaelcoughlan

            “There you go again – the murderous lust breaks out all over. That is no surprise – it’s the Hayek disease”

            No bonbon. It’s the red menace. I have finally figured out what your beef is. You despise liberty because free men and women can’t be subjugated to facilitate the madness and delusions of people like you.

            Every post you’ve made on this site for years now could be collectively summarised as such;

            I think GS is a proven idea which should be reinstated and will help restore normality to the worlds economic systems.

            Poor you bonbon. What a tragic waste of a human Life your existence represents.

            Sincerely,

            Michael.

          • bonbon

            The “red menace”? That is something out of Mc Carthy’s and Hoover’s “red’s under the bed”. Hilarious!

            The clock stopped ticking in 1983 for the Austrian School when Hayek gave that infamous interview.
            The Legacy Of Friedrich Von Hayek: Fascism Didn’t Die With Hitler

          • michaelcoughlan

            Your entitled to believe the clock stopped ticking in 1983. The kemer rouge reset it to zero. It stopped for good for manny of the middle class officers in the Russian army when shot into the aformentined hole.

            It stopped for good for manny of the educated cubans who knew what a headcase Castro is and never made it all the way across the shark infested stretch of water
            between Cuba and the US.

            Your the one with the Hayek psychosis bonbon amongst your manny others.

            Sincerely,

            Michael.

        • What is not correct? Hamiltonian banking is a central bankers wet dream.

          Rothschild based banking and Hamilton married to a Rothschild so I read.

    • DB4545

      Bonbon do you do any thinking for yourself? Almost every link you post goes to that Alice in wonderland site “LaRouchepac.com”. Some local credit unions are in trouble because local people didn’t pay attention having deposited money in them. Let them take the hit and move on. They’re a good example of non-contagion as damage is limited to the local area. The real danger is if the deposits are centralised and the Government decides to allow a bail-in with these deposits. However if you want to hear something original and entertaining from the USA Youtube “Edward Sharpe and the magnetic zeros-home” (you’ll know the song).It’s past time for a new tune bonbon.

      • whatamess

        Why the apparent knee jerk reaction to LaRouche,once again? LaRouche – So what ? Yea,Bonbon appears to be aligned with their philosophies /thinking on certain matters….big deal?? Please don’t be distracted

        sorry my man, but this intrigues me DB45

        I do appreciate the FEAR of being sold “a pup” and the ‘perceived’ to be unattainable utopian ideologies of redesigning physical economies and cultural changes too which is maybe to some , very Jacque Fresco esque ? Not for me i must say

        Ask of yourself,why this resistance?? I appreciate the phenomenon of what we all are aware of this- phenomenon in the human psyche of resistance to CHANGE and this is even more so the case ,when fear has enveloped us. .Aside from the fact that our Gov’t (Lenihan% Cowen whoever ) have already sold us a mainged pup ,thereby eradicating peoples trust to get it right.

        Proposals of sudden change frighten people,i know and appreciate this..Again,sorry ,but some “tigers” are more afraid of appearing foolish than you are of being wrong

        We are in a dark deep hole and NOW need creativity and not wild eyed belief systems

        sorry it’s late men and maybe i ought not be posting

        signing off

        whatamessssss

      • bonbon

        Good to know you follow the links. There is a lot of material, well put together and something RTE at the moment does not seem to even conceive of.

        As to “moving on”, to where exactly?

  20. whatamess

    This video link gives some backround of the status quo back in the
    “”Go-Go 90′s” …

    Greenspan,Bernake& Larry Summers

    versus

    Brooksley Born

    worth the watch

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

  21. michaelcoughlan

    Hi all,

    I’m so glad I made a conscious decision not to get dragged into the same shite the blog is repeatedly descending into which is the GS/sound money dogma. Talk about kicking the shit out of a dead horse over and over and over again.

    Both points of view are correct. Split banks work better. Sound money works better. Bonbon/whatamess then prove over and over again why GS is unworkable by demonstrating over and over again how the established order ensure GS doesn’t get implemented the latest point here is JP Morgan spent $350m ensuring it doesn’t.

    Tony you then prove the point that sound money isn’t going to be restored because we both know that gold is being naked short sold on the comes with a wink and s nod from the authorities. We also know that the charts are showing gold continuing to drop.

    So what’s the moral of the story? It’s like two groups on the titanic having an argument about why the ship is sinking; one side is saying it’s because there is a big hole in the boat. The other side is saying it’s because the water can’t be pumped out fast enough.

    Ye got to take stock lads. The ship is sinking and soon yeer testicles are going to be in water below freezing so my advise is to cut the shit talk and start discussing solutions to the problems at hand and not proven remedies which simply can’t be applied to the circumstances as they stand.

    Time for reflection lads.

    • whatamess

      The only refection you are likely to see is the reflection of the same ol’ conditioned “tiger” & monetarist ideologies that have always consumed you i.e. your mental shutters come down abruptly …talk of blind spots ….jeeeez louise

      In the interim,the exsanguinating vampires continue to feeeed

      Some “tigers” are waaaay more afraid of appearing foolish, than you are of being wrong

      • michaelcoughlan

        Hi whatamess,

        As usual your posts make no sense. Every bit of it is based on your assumptions of your understanding of how other people think.

        As for GS; the greatest public works project of all was undertaken within 10 years of it’s implementation; Ww2. Of course nuclear fisiob, jet engines, rocket engines, computers etc were all developed not to help human beings but to help exterminate them.

        The only one whose blind is you.

        • bonbon

          Hayek again, straight from the Horses Mouth.

          You see Hayek and the Mont Pelerin crowd could not accept fascism’s defeat by a recovered USA, and simply adored the “success” of Hitler’s economics. The Austrian School of the London School of Economics pushes exactly the Schacht program. What we have now is Schachtian austerity, Hitler’s policy, spread by Draghi et al and Barry O’Bama – obamacare for example.

          You have to be totally blind not to see what is going on.

          • michaelcoughlan

            You are totally blind.

          • michaelcoughlan

            “fascism’s defeat by a recovered USA”

            Really? The families of 20 million
            Dead Russian soldiers would beg to differ.

          • bonbon

            In what way differ? Only Truman and McCarthy made the USA and the US “enemies”, as Churchill wanted. Fascism was defeated at great cost, so why support it now? After all, Hayek and Friedman were open supporters of fascist economics. As was Churchill, Halifax and Baverbrooke, and Sir Oswald Mosely, the father of the U.S.E. (EU).

          • bonbon

            USA and Russia enemies…

          • michaelcoughlan

            They differ in the fact that it was Russia stopped the nazis not fdr. Hayek, Churchill, Truman, McCarthy, Friedman, are all dead and not supporting anyone. Only you and your mates could draw a comparison between the US and
            Nazi germany especially since one is so pro the Jews and one do anti.

            As for supporting fascism? Your repeated assertions in this regard says it all about you.

      • michaelcoughlan

        Hi whatamess,

        As usual your posts make no sense. Every bit of it is based on your assumptions of your understanding of how other people think.

        As for GS; the greatest public works project of all was undertaken within 10 years of it’s implementation; Ww2. Of course nuclear fision, jet engines, rocket engines, computers etc were all developed not to help human beings but to help exterminate them.

        The only one whose blind is you.

    • joe hack

      Gs that’s defeatist! ya won’t fight because you will lose…

      its self fulfilling, and you will never be wrong…

      but ya never win and JP Morgan knows yer type and it’s partly why we are where we are…

      but maybe others will fight for you and if they fail you can then say, I told you so

      “life is a struggle of inches”
      you could of course keep your defeatist thoughts to yourself and thereby help to embolden others ?

      • michaelcoughlan

        Hi Joe,

        I’m not sure if you meant this post for me. If you did I can’t see how my post is defeatist. What I’m trying to suggest is that endlessly talking ourselves up
        Our own arses about gold or GS on a public forum isn’t going to achieve anything especially when the same old diatribe is trotted out.

        All I’m suggesting is that there are other
        approaches which can and need to be
        examined and implemented tonhelp put manners on thd likes of JP Morgan. Keiser’s approach for example when he suggested people should short JP Morgan and buy silver to expose their then massive short position in the metal which could be argued contributed to them incurring the massive fine recently imposed on them.

        As for keeping commentary to myself. No chance. No one whose read my posts would describe them as defeatist. There is a massive difference between accepting the reality of what’s in front of you and dealing with it as is and simply giving up.

        Regards,

        Michael.

        • bonbon

          Fascism was defeated by FDR’s success, and is on the rise right now. Accepting that defeat then and seeing how to defeat it now, with Glass-Steagall, is the sign of education.

          Admitting that Hayek and Mont Pelerin as merely a club pushing fascism with a wink-wink, would be a major step forward.

          • michaelcoughlan

            Facism was defeated because millions of brave allied soldiers gave their lives to stop it. Only someone so cowardly to not even post in their own name and mad and brainwashed would credit the defeat of racism to fdr. If GS is ever to be reinstated I can say 100% it will NEVER be reinstated by the likes of you.

          • bonbon

            FDR’s economic recovery made sure for every pound of enemy logistics, there was 10 tons of capable opposition. Those GI’s who put their lives on the line, had backing. Look at what happened to the Wehrmacht at Stalingrad – Goebbels sent christmas trees as winter supplies! The difference – fascist cynicism, ala Nietzsche. So drop the Mises-anthropism, Nietzschean cynicism. Get with Glass-Steagall.

          • michaelcoughlan

            Like all wars it was all the money printing that backed the Gi’s.

          • bonbon

            I doubt that heaps of paper fiat equals tanks, and materiel. It is the monetarist disease to think paper backed the GI’s. Not even the enemy were fooled by that. Japan knew the vast economy of the US, as the German generals warned in 1942 already was unbeatable.

            Today BushObama have done damage to the economy than either Hitler or Stalin.

      • michaelcoughlan

        November 17, 2013 at 12:33 am
        Hi Joe,
        I’m not sure if you meant this post for me. If you did I can’t see how my post is defeatist. What I’m trying to suggest is that endlessly talking ourselves up
        Our own back sides about gold or GS on a public forum isn’t going to achieve anything especially when the same old diatribe is trotted out.
        All I’m suggesting is that there are other
        approaches which can and need to be
        examined and implemented to help put manners on thd likes of JP Morgan. Keiser’s approach for example; when he suggested people should short JP Morgan and buy silver to expose their then massive short position in the metal which could be argued contributed to them incurring the massive fine recently imposed on them.
        As for keeping commentary to myself. No chance. No one whose read my posts would describe them as defeatist. There is a massive difference between accepting the reality of what’s in front of you and dealing with it as is and simply giving up.

        Regards,

        Michael.

        Sent from my iPhone

        • joe hack

          Yep it was meant for you Michael you may not be a defeatist-but sometimes it is boring to be repetitive but that’s what struggle is, a struggle of inches.

          It is more garage band than X factor it’s repetitive practice and hard work

          and maybe a twig snaps in the thatch and the thatch collapses – then maybe the people see the light and then someone like Elizabeth Warren is in the right place at the right time but only if they(she) senses support and not defeat can they act??????? that’s how voting and democracy works. inches…1000s of years of struggles..

    • gold may be being bare naked shorted but bullion is still needed to be delivered. It is rumored that china is getting 3000 tonnes a year or even 5000 tonnes and it has to come from somewhere. Likely it is coming from the London gold pool as 1200 tonnes recently was shipped to Switzerland for re-smelting(no tungsten thank you).
      more has come from exchange traded funds and some from central bank sales.
      At some point in the near future gold demand for physical will outstrip demand and gold will go no bid.
      As soon as that happens the Chinese will enforce their goal of the remninbi being a major trading currency and it will be valued against a partial gold backing. That is the beginning of the end of the US dollar supremacy for world trade.
      All currencies will devalue against gold by at least 50% for starters. This will be a bank holiday experience weekend.

      Gold is the metal of rulers. They who have the gold rule.
      There is no stopping this Michael, as it is only a question of time.

      • bonbon

        The “rulers” ? There is a biblical ring to that. Are you referring to Ramses or Solomon?

        Shelley’s Ozymandias put it best :

        I met a traveller from an antique land
        Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
        Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
        Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
        And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
        Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
        Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
        The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
        And on the pedestal these words appear:
        “My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
        Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
        Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
        Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
        The lone and level sands stretch far away.

        • the only ruler I have met was the 12 inch rule used by the teachers on my bare thigh in a vain attempt to conform to accepted behavioral standards.

          The other rulers are the one on the Thames embankment known as the yard stick to establish correct measurement length and the gold standard that is the yard stick of all things monetary aka the gold standard.

          There is no other acceptable measurement of the value of a currency as can be seen by each currency being currently measured by every other currency. Gold does indeed rule. It exceeds and outlasts all empires.

          Shelley is a master.

          • bonbon

            All empires collapse, and all have used gold, metal, dead capital, assigning to it some omnipotent effect, as Arthur Griffith noted, hastening the fall.

            The British Gold Standard, the dream of the LSE’s Hayek, is simply that a dream. Anytime it it is even tried it causes a physical collapse, as the Specie Resumption Act caused the Long Depression. This is well understood now.

          • Empires rise on honest money and collapse on corruption.
            We are in the final stages of collapse. corruption is endemic.

          • bonbon

            Metal corrupts the mind. Economics is of the mind.

      • joe hack

        There is a political power balance act been traded between the east and west.

        The people of the east wonder why their 8 nah 12 nah 16 hours of labour every day is not been rewarded in the same way as it is in the west.

        They realise they are enslaved to the west i.e. you me and our neighbours, expect wages across the globe to become more balanced in the future, the west relatively poorer the east relatively richer and Africa too.

        It is no secret that many countries are already dealing with the Yuen and it is no secret that the imf is supportive of multiply world currencies they even have system in place for, it helps the balance of power and helps stabilise an unbalanced/unfair dollar bias.

        (Printing of the dollar has reduced the value of it and in turn increased the value of other denominations hence a shift in gold stores…)

        The USA has run out of options including disastrous military ones future and past welcome to “a new world order”, it’s not the one bush envisioned but it is the one everyone else foresaw.

        If you order a chunk of oil today in dollars, your dollar may not get what it did a week earlier it cannot be trusted.

        It’ great to see your neighbours not living in shit

        • bonbon

          The Brutish would like “balance of power” and tried to start a thermonuclear war with the USE, Russia and China over “Syria” in August, but were all botched up by some very intelligent people who saw the British Great Game all over again. So dump Mackinder’s Geopolitics and see what options are really there. The Brutish Empire is vulnerable, as Snowden shows, is crumbling. The “rulers” as someone mentioned, are falling.

          “My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
          Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”, famous last words of the Brutish Empire.

      • will outstrip demand == outstrip supply.

    • bonbon

      So grab the gold ingots in the sinking ship eh? That about sums up Hayek’s nudge-nudge wink-wink!

  22. joe hack

    What we need now is a kick the telly revolution

    “Elizabeth Warren challenges Obama to break up ‘too-big-to-fail’ Wall St banks
    Amid speculation that she might run against Hillary Clinton in 2016, firebrand senator attacks regulators for multiple failings”

    This woman is to credit union / GS what Clinton is Wall St what we need now is a kick the telly revolution then Warren may be president of the USA and a form of GS may follow tooth-sweet.

  23. bonbon

    Just in case some Tiger’s think Glass-Steagall is an academic point, remember it was the 1933 basis for the US Recovery and the defeat of international fascism. Wall Street never accepted that nor the London School of Economics. To call the economic savagery of the EU and Obama anything other than fascism is, well, simply Tiger. Putting lipstick on it or putting it to music at a festival is simply Tiger.

  24. bonbon

    IT- Could the US be heading
    towards an Elizabethan era?

    It is beyond me how the IT mentions Elizabeth Warren and avoids Glass Steagall. It is truly amazing. Maybe it was redacted?

    A Tiger Taboo ?

    • bonbon

      And not a single blogger there challenges the Taboo. Telling, indeed.

      • bonbon

        The deafening silence on Glass-Steagall at Kilkenomics is astounding. Even MaxKeiser, the economic shock-jock as DT’s Liam Halligan, who was there, says, has taken time for Glass-Steagall.

        • joe hack

          Don’t you get it DMW writes for “the Common man” lower case t and m?

          yea I know it is condescending and presupposes a set assumptions…

          First up is DMW cannot be Common and this also means that anyone who reads his musings is Common, it may also mean that Darwin was wrong or did not understand self imposed class survival instinct. ‘I know better that you because I decided it was so and therefore I must dumb it down for you to understand, I am telling you that you are a plebe’…

          Quite simply it is assumed that the people that read DMW are dumb “common man”(Pat Kenny 2013) what does that say… of course it could be that PK is common and gets DMWs dumbing down and therefore assumes everyone else is as dumb as least he believes himself to be dumb.

          It appears that Lenahan knew this too and thought, if I can get the man that speaks down to the common man on side with a Banking Guarantee scheme I may have less grief in the media, well it seems someone was perceptive?

          If I was DMW I be pissed at PK for calling my audiences at Kk “the Common man” Dumb is the assumption here but PK gets it! Dumb on Dumb, the pot calling the kettle black KillKenny.

          “Common man” and not woman is that sexism too.

  25. Wow! Is this new or did I miss it first time around? Nice bit of patriotic Sovereignty and fiduciary duty of care there, Regulatory folk.

    Is this “pulling it out of our arses” redux? Has someone lit the blue touch paper?

    “British government knew before Irish cabinet that bank bailout would take place

    Secret communications between regulator and British treasury revealed”

    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/British-government-knew-before-Irish-cabinet-that-bank-bailout-would-take-place-232251661.html#ixzz2kugefoqi

    • bonbon

      5 Eyes at work. The daft thing is that most think PRISM/Tempora were only after seedy sms’s. There is absolutely no sovereignty left. More Snowden’s are coming forward, a flood. It makes One Eye very nervous.

      Panopticon at work, Jeremy Bentham’s self described “new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example.”

  26. bonbon

    Economics for anti-dummies :

    Educating A Renaissance… Ireland – An Economic Revival (Based on Marine Transport, Engineering and Scientific Exploration)

    No PhD needed. And no apologies to “popular” culture, Tiger “sensitivities”.

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