November 4, 2013

We're all just too human

Posted in Behavioural Economics · 203 comments ·

Can you imagine being so severely burned that you are not able to speak to your nurses? You are a mute mummy, in horrible pain, wrapped in bandages with horrific burns all over your teenage body. When it comes to changing your bandages, the compassionate nurses intuitively believe that ripping the bandages off as quickly as they can will spare you some pain.

But you know that’s not the case. You know that slowly peeling off the bandages is less painful. You want to tell them but you can’t speak. So you anticipate and then experience the awful pain – a pain administered by kind people who want to help you but who’s best-intentioned intuition is wrong.

This true story is hardly a typical source of economic research but in the case of Dan Ariely, superstar economics professor, New York Times best-seller and a man widely tipped as a future candidate for the Nobel prize, it is such a source. He was, in fact, so severely burned he was unable to speak to his nurses.

When asked if a general lesson for economic policy makers lies in the nurse’s well-intentioned mistake about patient pain, Ariely responds:

”Yes, I hope so! It’s all about the inability to predict the right model. So it’s all about the limit to intuition but the amazing thing is that the nurses had the certainty about what the right thing to do was. It wasn’t as if they said we don’t know’, they had this tremendous confidence. So the issue is our inability to understand whether our intuitions are useful.”

Ever since, Ariely has been asking these questions. Why do people do things? How can we be influenced? Why do we take chances? And can we rectify our mistakes to make better decisions about the world around us?

His work explores the everyday: why are some people slow to buy rounds, why do we lie, why are some countries more happy to be organ donors and others not, why do people keep smoking, why do some gay men still not wear condoms at bathhouses, why do some advertising campaigns work and others fail spectacularly, why do we buy certain things and not others, why when faced with choices in life do we act against our own interest, and why do we keep making basic mistakes?

Four years ago, an American friend grabbed me and said: ”You simply have to read this book, it will change the way you think about everything.” That book was the New York Times runaway bestseller Predictably Irrational’ by Ariely.

Ariely is the James B Duke Professor of Psychology and Behavioural Economics at Duke University. One of the world’s leading experts in the new field of behavioural economics, he has numerous scientific publications and has published two other bestselling books The Upside of Irrationality’ and his latest The Honest Truth about Dishonesty’. His TED talks have had over six million views. He is co-founder of BE Works, a Toronto-based management consultancy firm applying behavioural economics to business problems.

He chatted recently with Dr Kevin Denny of UCD (one of Ireland’s foremost experts in behavioural economics) ahead of Ariely’s keynote address at Kilkenomics next weekend in Kilkenny.

Given that Ariely is tipped as a future Nobel prize winner, Denny asked him about the recent Nobel Prize given to three economists: Chicago economist Lars Hansen; Robert Shiller, a leading behavioural economist who spotted the bubble in the American housing market before most and the author of Irrational Exuberance’ and Gene Fama, a Chicago economist credited with the Efficient Markets Hypothesis – the notion that you can leave financial markets alone and they will always be right. This was the intellectual rock upon which the spate of deregulation of the past twenty years was founded.

Ariely has a fairly critical take on the state of economics at present and thought that this was reflected in the recent Nobel award.

His scepticism is hardly surprising when so much of traditional economics believes that people act rationally, yet all Ariely’s work is based on the fundamental premise that we are deeply human, deeply emotional, irrational – and about as far from the typical rational man that economists talk about but none of us have actually met in real life!

”I am not as generous as some people. I think it’s a confused discipline. So I think it’s not a great reflection. I think Shiller should have won. The others shouldn’t have. They added a lot to economic thought and they added a lot to dangerous, destructive economic thought. So I don’t think we owe them a lot”.

This public bluntness is refreshing from an academic because academics mostly criticise each other only in private while remaining more ambivalent in public.

Denny asked him whether the award of Nobel Prizes, to the psychologist Daniel Kahneman in 2002 and now Shiller would do much to popularise behavioural economics since it seems to be ubiquitous now?

Ariely was not optimistic at all:

”It’s beneficial but I don’t think the Nobel Prize is highly important. I don’t think the economics profession is going to change much. Behavioural economics is going to remain a small area. So it depends on what you mean when you say ”everywhere”. Yes it’s a victory in terms of public opinion but not much improvement in terms of economics. Are people studying economics now really studying something different? I think the answer is mostly no”.

Denny continued asking him about this uncharacteristic academic pessimism from such a normally optimistic person:

”It’s the way academic journals work. The allure of simple theories is too high. It’s very hard to fight this. Imagine you are a PhD student: economics is partly a religion and when you go to an economics department, you get indoctrinated.”

This rigid, narrow gauge and pre-ordained route to academia is in stark contrast to Ariely’s own journey where a near death and permanently scarring experience led him to ask why people behave as we do.

Ariely’s new book is about dishonesty and at Kilkneomics he will discuss it in the context of bankers and the financial industry. Denny pointed out to him that in Ireland the narrative is that bankers were greedy and reckless, and asked if he thought dishonesty was a better way of thinking about bankers’ behaviour?

”I think it’s important to separate the person from the act so that when we say it’s a dishonest act we are not having a judgement about the person. That’s crucial that when we see conflicts of interest; it doesn’t mean the people are terrible. If you think of the financial crisis, you don’t want to point the finger and say that these were bad people. You want to understand in a deeper way why they did what they did. It’s a wishful blindness”.

In recent work Ariely had shown that financial bonuses do not improve performance despite the claims of the banking industry that they were essential to attract talent.

Did this go down badly when he presented it to financiers on Wall Street?

”Absolutely! The thing to realise is that people have tremendous blindness around their own motivations,” evoking the famous Upton Sinclair observation that ”it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it”.

Behavioural economics takes its cue from psychology by using mostly small experiments and Ariely has recently moved into areas not normally associated with economics, such as the study of obesity.

Does he think that behavioural economics has much to contribute to combating the obesity epidemic?

”I actually think it’s crucial. The things that don’t work are the things that have to do with information alone. There is a recent survey of the effects of financial literacy and sadly there is no evidence that it improves behaviour. Information alone doesn’t do anything. We need to find what does matter and it needs to be some kind of intervention. I can teach you a lot about finance and hope that you remember and apply it or I can create an electronic wallet that will do things without you having to think too much about it. This will be much more successful.”

Asked by Denny if this meant a role for the ”Nudges” popularised by Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler and adopted by British and other governments, he affirmed: ”Yes, but these small interventions are often not sufficient: we need more powerful interventions.”

Ariely is a new breed of economist who believes that governments have an obligation to try to change the public’s behaviour. This new type of economist looks around the world and asks why people do what they do and whether we can change their behaviour in a way that will benefit not just them but all of us.

Next weekend in Kilkenny you have the chance to meet and listen to the funny, irreverent, brilliant and curious Dan Ariely, who when I asked him to come to Kilkenny in Ireland to speak at an economics conference where stand-up comedians grill the economists, he replied ”sure that sounds like fun and you’ll probably get more info out than a typical academic one. Count me in. Where is it again”?

As well as giving the keynote address, Dan is available for a more intimate economic agony aunt session where you can ask him that economic question you’ve always wanted answered but never had the opportunity to ask. Ariely will also award the first ever Young Economist of the Year prize in Ireland on Friday November 8 in Kilkenny.

Dan Ariely will be at Kilkenomics, November 8-10. Book now at

  1. whatamess

    im not gonna mention Glass Steagall



  2. Adelaide

    I work in the industry and had the unfortunate experience of attending the Web Summit per obligations. (ps The tickets cost e920 for the two days!) Anyway, it was utter nonsense. More deluded people there than in an asylum. Complete waffle. Terrible business concepts. They were all flogging solutions addressing imaginary first world problems. “Need to organise your wardrobe?” “Need to make a cheap online video?” The last one was the heralded Viddyad that scooped the prize, with project growth of 1-2$billion. Seriously, this was deemed the best of all the BS on show? Are these people completely cluelessly mad?

    • michaelcoughlan

      “Are these people completely cluelessly mad”

      Yes. That’s why bonbon keeps projecting GS onto them, he identifies with the madness.

    • What does Viddyad do Adelaide? I could look it up but your opinion might be more useful.

      I could have gone to this seeing as I am doing a PhD in Social Media but by the sounds of it I’m glad I didn’t.

      I went to a travel bloggers conference a few weeks ago which was decent but it was more about the networking than the actual presentations which were just average.

      • Adelaide

        Viddyad sources existing video clips from digital content sellers like iStockFootage etc and enables the user to overlay text and a soundtrack to their chosen ‘video clip’ and then upload it to social media sites.

        How this won the prize when this service has already existed online for years, it’s not new, and the reason these services remain puny is because their end result is screamingly amateur. Only bored grannies use these services to amuse their grandchildren on their birthdays with a ‘Happy Birthday Video Card’. It’s strictly amateur time.

    • Adelaide

      The calibre on show at the Web Summit reminded me of Alan Partridge’s desperate pitch for a TV series. “Monkeys Playing Tennis?”

  3. Financial bonuses do not improve performance . People have tremendous blindness to there own motivations , upton Sinclair hits the nail on the head when he says it’s hard to get someone to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding It, this one sentence of Sinclair goes to prove why most Irish economists opt for the status quo . I totally disagree when he says it’s important to separate the person from the act surely If the act Is dishonest then so Is the Person.
    This kind of bastardizing of the English language In my view has led to Ireland becoming one of the most corrupt country’s In the world,

  4. “economics is partly a religion and when you go to an economics department, you get indoctrinated”

    “We need to find what does matter and it needs to be some kind of intervention”

    The major problems for the economy and society in general are on the one hand too much intervention and on the other hand a lack of enforcement of regulation supposedly designed to protect the public from fraud and manipulation.

    The intervention is basically from the elite families controlling the money system. We have foisted upon us a fiat paper money product that is issued as debt at interest. The world is suffocating from this debt and strangulated by the accumulating interest.

    Then we have “international” bodies set up by the bankers such as the IMF and BIS that advocate austerity on the same populations and strip them of their assets and dignity.

    Governments set up regulators supposed to prevent fraud and corruption but who find that the monetary and fiscal policies are fostered by government in conjunction with big business (dare we say the fascist model)and so are unable to act against and challenge the fraud.

    Until I see an economist address this fundamental problem and there is a recognition that their discipline is corrupted along with everyone else I hold no hope for any solutions.

    We, to have any hope of relieve from economic suppression and social disintegration, must remove the power of money creation from this elite group.

    The central bank system must be destroyed and closed. Management of the state money supply must be returned to treasury and issue currency that bears no interest and is not a debt. Legal tender laws must be removed and open competition be allowed in the peoples right to use whatever they agree as money as a medium of exchange. Asset based money with intrinsic value must be allowed to circulate. This will provide a healthy competition for the state issued money.

    There is already too much intervention in the economy and to advocate even more is not at all helpful.It has lead to what may be described as “Voodoo Economics”. The only intervention needed is for the removal of the current intervention emanating from the central banking system that has corrupted all.

    • bonbon

      “Intervention” today is monkey-bubbles.

      Uniquely human intervention means a Fusion Economy, something no animal-rights activist like Sunstein, Ariely, Shiller, or John Stuart Mill can even conceive of.

      How to Create a New Fusion Economy, And Why

      • michaelcoughlan

        Non Gratum anus rodentum

        • whatamess


          A new financial architecture is desperately needed

          hope this finds you well

          • michaelcoughlan

            “A new financial architecture is desperately needed”

            He just told you that.

          • whatamess/Michael
            we are all in agreement and I take whatamess’s comment as a confirmation and agreement with my position.

            Michael, I did not see your email on silver so please resend to

            All is well whatamess, thank you. I am just departed Duck creek Farm and to another place on Booth Canal Rd on Salt spring. I am very pleased that I contributed to a major revamp of the drainage infrastructure on the farm that will extend the growing season by several weeks.

          • whatamess

            Hi Tony,

            Hope you are well sir

            I agree that it would be ‘ideal’ to have a money system free of the central banks and their borrowed into existence FIAT debt based fractional reserved loo- roll,ehem,money and Joe and Jane Public are free to choose this as an alternative.

            I also agree that shutting down the PRIVATE federal reserve who’s function in ‘life’ (all be it a synthetic life) is to protect the insolvent banks ,would be a winning formula ,but quixotic.

            And i certainly agree that “There is no compromising with the enemy out to kill you. It is them or you. Your choice.”
            JFK discovered that,right!We too are on that hit list!

            The global financial empire is coming to an end Tony.We are all agreed on that.It’s a matter of timelines now.What will be humankind’s CREATIVITY at this cusp and what will be the mechanics of that???

            Quick shtorrry:

            I was,many moons ago,involved as an employeee ( a shlave ) in the sale of a medium sized manufacturing company with headquarters in Chicago.
            It went like this:
            The owner wanted to sell.So he spoke with several investment bankers pondering the imponderables.IPO’s were explored etc etc – How can we squeeze the most orange juice outa this orange,so to speak.
            The choice of investment banker was made and the day he took over the reins, he said “Well guys,it’s time to dress up the lady !!”.
            This guy took a company with 6 manufacturing bases and wow did he dress her up well! Well,in 12 months,she went from an ugly ducking ,into a virginal princess.It was a lesson on caveat emptor let’s say :)lol And beware of the chick with loads of makeup in a fancy dress…she might have a lovely ass and ti*s that taste like french vanilla ice cream,but she got VD!

            My point is that the “what is” of this scenario,the epilogue stage of which is now playing out, is we need action now and not later and if i were a betting man,my money would be on the GS horse to deliver STABILITY and QUICKLY

            Let’s just forget for tonight the FACT that GS functioned perfectly well for decades!

            It’s NOW a question of ‘marketability’to Joe and Jane Public and turning Glass Steagall into reality,even tho a long shot,is our best and most REAL bet,with the ticking time bomb of derivatives or any other incendiary instrument that might “detonate” us.

            Enough said

            I had a good look at the North end of the Saanich Peninsular and the Georgia basin…WOW !lucky you!

          • michaelcoughlan

            Hi whatamess,

            Best post in a long time. Organise a pro GS march tell me the time and place and I’ll be there. I won’t come if you invite bonbon. If you and him are the same person leave your alter ego at home.

            I mean it, I will march with you.
            Will you take up the gauntlet?


          • Hi whatamess
            it is hard to keep up with the threads as, as soon as a reply is posted one is blown out of the series and have to start all over again and a long search it often is. I have spent hours just getting back to where I was Enough , you say!!

            Generally in agreement but I do not see where the commercial bank id prevented from using fractional reserve banking and so can still be involved in derivatives ad nauseam. GS will have a dent in activity but is an old remedy for a long ago mutated disease/problem.

            If you are going for broke you have to go for it.
            Stop fractional reserve banking and remove the central banks then add competition of metal currency as the only real money and all the rest dies.
            Do not feed the cancer and the patient recovers.

          • I am afraid GS is merely a diversion. Examine it in detail.

            Will it stop fractional reserve banking. Will it prevent the sale of mortgage backed securities etc.
            Will it rid of debt based money, the real cancer, and the attendant interest on an unnecessary national debt.

            If yes I am for it, other wise it is a sop designed and fostered by the banks themselves to delude you into thinking you are in control.

          • whatamess

            yea Tony,when David posts twice in one day,we get into catch up mode very quickly:)lol

            “Will it stop fractional reserve banking. Will it prevent the sale of mortgage backed securities etc.” you asked Tony

            No it won’t stop both,you’re right ,but with GS, all derivatives (synthetic IOUs ) become null and void and the bail ins/outs STOP ,thereby protecting joan and jane publiv

            stopping this runaway locomotive on a dime is a big ask….let’s slow it down….even divert it’s path coz it’s heading right towards a town near you

            a dead stop may kill us all

          • whatamess

            no need to reply Tony

            i dont have email notification switched on coz it’s a pain,i find

        • whatamess


          i will let you know the date of the march:)


          there never was a Bonbon ! lol

      • Address the subject, bonbon, or your commentary is a worthless diversion. You never address the problem of the current money system and ignore it at everyones’ peril.

    • michaelcoughlan

      +1. Did you get my email re silver Tony?

  5. bonbon

    Expecting economics from Shiller’s “Animal Spirits” is like expecting growth from chimps. Behavioral economics makes monkeys of all, chimps. Those going to Kilkenomics should realize you are being monkeyed with.

    What is it that the Brutish always must monkey with humanity? Well it keeps them docile, ready for the cull. Now, we had all that before in 1846.

    Ariely belongs to the troupe around Obama who organized Obamacare, a cull cult. Obamacare is applied behavioral economics from Peter Orzag and Ezekiel Emanuel – known as Ez-kill Emanuel. Behavioral economics kills.

    Degenerates Surround A Nero-Like President; Who Controls Them?

    “Note by the way, that this Ariely, another Israeli emigre, has made himself a “pain and pleasure suit, to measure how we combine pain (caused by extreme hot or cold temperature) in one part of our body, and pleasure in another…”.

    Monkeying with “pleasure-pain” and “irrationality, is not the full story. Dehumanization, bestialization is :

    “And speaking of bestial questions: Dan Ariely and George Loewenstein wrote a paper on “The Heat of the Moment: The Effect of Sexual Arousal on Sexual Decision Making.” Male college students were asked questions about sex-related subjects, and their answers were compared before and while masturbating”.

    I shudder to think what workshops might be at Kilkenomics….

    • bonbon

      And in that report you will see what Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler accomplished. The Russel Sage Foundation and the Sloan Foundation, which the 29 behavioral economists belong to, lead straight to the British Fabian Society and Mussolini.

      It would be quite fun to pose questions about this in Kilkenny. How can Kilkenny tolerate this again?

    • michaelcoughlan

      Non Gratum anus rodentum

      • whatamess

        You’re a Latin scholar,it now suddenly appears???ROTGL;)

        ita vita est

        not 432 Hz, but Tupac says it best


      • Ryu Hayabusa

        Hey that’s Tony’s line!

        • whatamess

          fugettttabowwhit !

          • Ryu Hayabusa

            Fagggedddabou-eeeet Feech!


            Feech worked a deregulated market.

            Nip it in the bud! Feech?

            Feech was put out to Pasture, put the banksters out to pasture!!

          • whatamess

            i watched on tv a few mins ago a kinda Crimewatch type programme where a guy stole a poor box from a shop.It was caught on camera and the programme was showing his face to get feedback/leads from the public asto his identity…

            I’m not condoning this lad’s actions but do u think that guy wakes up happy that he has to resort to that ??

            Any Bankers in Sing Sing ??

            what a sham!!

          • michaelcoughlan

            It seems the young fella has the same blasé attitude to other people’s property rights as you and bonbon.



          • whatamess

            just imagine tho that the young guy was THAT desperate .

            There’ll be plenty of people who’d say “send him to jail!”. Fine .That’s a legitimate stance to take.

            The financial elite however,doing UNTOLD damage,don’t face jail??That inequality bothers me.

            empathy more than ever is needed,not just the veneer

            people do MAD stuff when under massive pressure!!

            “Don’t judge me til you’ve walked a mile in my Mocchasins”

          • michaelcoughlan

            Hi whatamess,

            I AGREE with you re bankers not in Jail. I AGREE with you re empathy. I AGREE with you re idea re separation of banks. I Wouldn’t dream of judging you. People who differ with you are entitled to empathy and respect and are NOT Targets to be pissed off because it suits you to RAM your points of view down their throats.



          • Ryu Hayabusa


            The only difference between the chappie you illustrated and the Banksters is one of scale and audacity.

            He’s a small time nickle & dime chump.

            Contrast the tar and feathers approach in tackling him and the quivering deference displayed to these characters..

            Although change is afoot, the winds off change bloweth.

            You that would judge me, do not judge alone this book or that, come to this hallowed place where my friends’ portraits hang and look thereon; Ireland’s history in their lineaments trace; think where man’s glory most begins and ends and say my glory was I had such friends.

            William Butler Yeats

          • whatamess


            scale ,audacity and maybe motivation too?

            The banksters’ motivation is avarice!

            That young fella’s ,probably desperation! There are many types

            That’s what empire produces!

            an ever expanding chasm between rich and poor and that are inversely proportional
            and “to the winners go the spoils and the loosers,default and defeat”.Kyle Bass

          • Ryu Hayabusa


            Did you know If you just change one letter of his name.. you’ve got one half of the most bodacious rock duo of all!

            It’s GASS, not Bass man pah!


    • cooldude

      I read that report and found it very interesting. This “behavioral economics” lark is just another means of controlling the masses by the elites. The Russel Sage Foundation is definitely part of a global elite think tank which is looking into all means of population control including possible population reduction.

      First of all we had DMcW having a hissy fit when some commentators dared to criticize Bono’s involvement with self proclaimed population reduction advocate Bill Gates and now we have him bringing this extremely dodgy control freak and his pals to Kilkenny. There is little doubt that this branch of economics has nothing to do with bringing any real growth or prosperity to people but has everything to do with control, manipulation and perhaps even reduction of the population.

      Max Keiser and Bill Bonner are two excellent contributors but these frauds should be exposed for the dodgy charlatans they are.

    • michaelcoughlan

      ““The Heat of the Moment: The Effect of Sexual Arousal on Sexual Decision Making”

      Sex does indeed sell bonbon.

  6. bonbon

    “As well as giving the keynote address, Dan is available for a more intimate economic agony aunt session where you can ask him that economic question you’ve always wanted answered but never had the opportunity to ask. Ariely will also award the first ever Young Economist of the Year prize in Ireland on Friday November 8 in Kilkenny”.

    Behavioral economics can get intimate alright. I’m sure it would not be a pleasure for “Agony Aunt” to be a total pain and ask about that “research” with college students, presumably young economists.

  7. Economists claim they are validated by scientific inquiry, yet never use it to test their theories outside the Spreadsheet Lab and the Jargon Factory. If they did create meaningful feedback loops between their absurd alogrithms and lived, consensual reality, they’d crumble into existential crisis. So they remain teflon-coated, suited and booted, furiously loading up more Powerpoint blizzards to try and prove the earth is still flat after the Great Financial Apocalyse of 2008 . They formulate a map of theories then apply it, but “the map is not the territory”. If they were genuine students of how genes, dreams, memes and temes interact to create thought-form economic realities, they’d be curious and modest, rather than arrogant blowhards. They are no better than Mayan priests praying for rain. In fact, the Maya were skilled astronomers who mapped the procession of the stars over 36,000 years. That’s a lot longer than faux fraudulent Western Economics, and their maths can never be debunked, unlike Greenspan and Bernanke and the rest of those prats.

    No-one must criticise the soothsayers in the economic temple as that would undermine ‘confidence’ and, as we all know: economies grow from green shoots requiring nothing more than ‘magical thinking’ and money printing. If people ignore the structural realities of Cheap Peak Oil, ignore the Ponzi that is fracking, and insist that Graphene is a harbinger of technological exoskeletal singularity rather than a lucky fluke, then we’ll be fine…except we won’t. The reality is we are eroding the capital base of the planet through unrestrained Carnism and Speciesism. It’s possible that the Abrahamic Biblical Economics that is disguised as Neoliberalism can carry on for a few more decades, but when the Congo Basin is reduced to the same monocultural wasteland as the green deserts of the ‘prosperous’ West, then it’s game over.

    The only serious statements about economic reality I’ve seen in recent years are “Avatar” by James Cameron and “2nd Law” by Muse. I’ll give this Ariely guy a day’s reading, but he, like David, has to realise that dry words and even comedy cannot shift consciousness, it takes Greek Tragedy. Which is why i’ll be referencing the excellent Punk Economics and Kilkenomics stand-up comic mash-up remix cultural tropes as part of my own blistering stage show ‘going forward’. Nietzsche said “without music, life would be a mistake”. I think an economic opera is in order, as a sub-plot of my emerging Gesamtkunstwerk. A Wall Street/City of London re-imagining of Matt & Trey’s “Book of Mormon” to debunk the cult banalities of economics. *sigh* As if I don’t have enough to do…it’s on the list with the other stuff. Now, plane to Waterford, car to Kilkenny and then lurk in the shadows, biting my lip to avoid winning Heckler Of The Year..

    • bonbon

      Now to give Dan Ariely his due he did actually conduct research – see above here with George Loewenstein.

      Clearly Nobel Prize stuff ! Streets ahead of Shillers Animal Spirits ! Sure any economist would be glad to be nominated from such laudables.

      Still I strongly suggest reading the fine print of that research. It will haunt anyone who goes along to get along.

    • bonbon

      If you are serious about having fun, taking the risk not of winning heckler of the year, but being tarred and feathered, use the material above on behavior research conducted by the luminaries. Ask about his Pleasure-Pain suit, and his “Heat of the Moment” report.

      But to expect Tigers to have fun …

  8. 5Fingers

    Track record for prediction in economics is a fat zero. The behaviour I want to understand is why we keep looking for oracles on what is patently unpredictable.

    Not one innovation or it effects or its related discoveries or impact to society Has ever been predicted. And the same goes for the way we use recent history to explain it all – retrospective bias and selective evidence

    We need to listen to the ancient greeks. They had it all sussed.

    • bonbon

      The EU politicians use that line all the time, while they very predictably steal in broad daylight for the patently irrational banksters.

      Forecasting, not mere prediction, is only successful, when economics is human, not bestialized by such as Dan Ariely, Sunstein, Thaler – the troupe lurching and slouching into Kilkenny.

      Since only humanity has economy, no beast, start with the difference. One instantly notes the utter evil intent of the behaviorists.

  9. joe hack

    Hello Dan Ariely, excuse the elephant shit I have no idea how it gets here, there is so much of it underfoot you would have to conclude that there is an herds of elephants about but no one claim to have seen any?.

    Dan! My question – could you please tell us why economists don’t debate the creation of money as debt – clearly it is mathematically unworkable and the evidence to prove this is all around us… here in Kilkenny too?

    • 5Fingers

      Creation of money as debt is not what caused the issue. It was people believing that bricks and mortar (or whatever) was a sure bet.

      Belief or conviction of sure bets is what is causing booms and busts. If poor, your are cautious. If you suddenly become enriched with a few bob, you loose your sensibilities and start to believe you are invincible – sure bet-itis and then Bust! Rich people remain miserable even with a (considerably) few extra bobs. They remain cautious.

      Blaming money creation is a diversion away from the real curse of how people cod themselves and build their own rationale and how the media and hype makes it worse and how economists and their charlatan predictive powers reinforces it with a veneer of intellectual cred.

      • michaelcoughlan

        “Blaming money creation is a diversion away from the real curse of how people cod themselves and build their own rationale and how the media and hype makes it worse and how economists and their charlatan predictive powers reinforces it with a veneer of intellectual cred”

        Thanks for this. Much information to consider. Much uncomfortable truth also.


      • joe hack

        The ‘human’ condition is policed in many ways but it seems there is no policing of the money system which in turn allows for primitive ‘human’ behaviour, a money system that one is trapped within and which is not of one’s making.

        It seems you advocate some laws to police certain ‘human’ behaviour or do you for example suggest that drink driving or murder should not be policed as the consequences only affect the victims and not you or a society.

        The fundamental ‘rule’ of the money system allows for the drug taking- religion aside-the existence of the ten commands stems from the ‘human’ condition .

        You appear to be suggesting a continuation of lawlessness within the money system only, and yet are supportive of other laws or rules which affect a society, unless of course you don’t believe in the rule of law…

        This money system that you stand over is FUNDAMENTAL to a functional collective which one as individual has to live within weather one likes or not – how can one be responsible for the lawlessness when one is an individual and there are no laws.

        We have all been affected by your group of individual ‘people’ whatever their drug.

        The status quo that you defend so much has affected the individual and the collective; it is time to man up and act like a parent – a nanny- a drink driving law for debt money is basic.

        You divert from the basics, are you an economist!

        Be careful that elephant next to you might be about to take shit.

      • “Creation of money as debt is not what caused the issue”

        As a direct statement that is correct. HOWEVER

        The money system allows for the issue of unlimited credit. That is to say QE to infinity is the result.
        Money supply expansion started in earnest in 1972 after the removal of the vestiges of the remains of the gold standard.

        The expansion of the money supply is defined as inflation. The rapid expansion of the money supply is hyperinflation. The results of this are unfolding and as yet not fully expressed.

        All money is issued as a debt so by definition an increase in the money supply is an increase in the debt. There is thus hyperinflation of debt cooked into the pie.

        All debt is issued at interest and as there is no currency produced at the time of the loan to pay the interest the interest must be paid out of someone else’s loaned money. Thus the payment of the interest takes from the money supply and throttles the amount spent on goods and services. Notwithstanding the reduction in interest rates, the interest also increases exponentially along with the money issued and the debt.

        Thus we find that for the system to not collapse money must be issued at faster and faster velocity.

        Collapse is , however, inevitable as the debt stifles and the interest throttles the activities of people to perform.

        as this unfolded people we persuaded to use cheap credit which fueled numerous bubbles. Where these bubbles occurred was not easily predictable, but once identified could be forecast, with certainty, to collapse. The speed of the collapse id not easily predicted but the event itself is.

        Without the availability of all the easy credit, few or none of these bubbles would be able to occur. Then there would not be the busts following the booms.

        Without addressing this issue there is in fact no resolution to the problems addressed and those busts about to full on humanity as this is the first time in history that this is a world wide phenomenon.

        Until people wake to this reality there is no solution. The perpetrators of this banking system scoop off the economic efforts of the people and accumulate the wealth while the rest grow poorer and work ever harder.

        These elite are acquiring all the hard assets and true wealth of the world while binding the masses to slavery.

        This is why the banking system, as it operates today , must be destroyed to enable the salvation of mankind.

        The central banking system is the root cause of our problems, as operated, and we have to return to a sound money system and a static amount of money in circulation. The current fiat money system is currently in the early stages of collapse and when it , the final collapse occurs it will be sudden and traumatic. Not something I look forward too but which I hope I am somewhat prepared for. You too should prepare: The Chinese are.

        • michaelcoughlan

          Great stuff Tony.

          • you are kind Michael {:-)

          • cooldude

            Agreed great comments but apart from Max Keiser I don’t think there will be much discussion on the ponzi scheme that is our modern system of money creation and banking going on in Kilkenny. Why should a privately owned central bank be allowed to produce a nation’s money? The only reason is because they control the politicians and control the population through the mainstream media. Who are the shareholders of the Irish central bank and indeed all central banks and why are they paid an annual dividend for the privelage of producing money? Nobody seems to know and any questions are discouraged but I would guess that you will find the large banking families such as the Rothschilds as shareholders. Just as they are in practically every central bank in the world.

        • 5Fingers

          I find it amusing in extremis that the people who have made considerable fortunes from property resulting from all this money creation are the ones who having consolidated their gains want the rules to change to lock in those gains.

          Seems to me you are the only ones in the prescribing game and telling us all how to live our lives. You have a bloody cheek!

          All I see is one confirmation bias after the next from the same old waffle sites used to confirm you lucky success and the sure bets you are placing now come the collapse you all long for…

          Sorry guys…the world is complicated. It may indeed collapse or do something else but not as you expect it.

          The key about behaviourilism is humility and an acceptance of the very random nature of our survival and the blunders we all make as a result of our circumstances. It is not survival of the fittest but the luckiest. Hope it stays that way.

          • “I find it amusing in extremis that the people who have made considerable fortunes from property resulting from all this money creation are the ones who having consolidated their gains want the rules to change to lock in those gains.”

            Who exactly are you referring to as having made fortunes from real estate?
            Nobody I have noticed on this thread. Irrelevant comment add little to the discussion.


            “Seems to me you are the only ones in the prescribing game and telling us all how to live our lives. You have a bloody cheek!”

            Seems to me you are overly sensitive here as nobody is telling you how to live your life.
            Random choice , and lucky success is your mantra so good luck to you, do as you please. Just do not drag me down with you by leaving the central banking system to operate with impunity robbing the people blind. You seem not to care that people are being robbed of all assets and dignity.

            “come the collapse you all long for…”

            nobody expressed any longing for a collapse. The words used were—

            Not something I look forward to.

            Your behavioral biases are getting in the way of a reasonable logical response.
            If you disagree with the statement and prognosis let us see why and how. you either agree that the monetary system is forcing poverty on the greater majority or you have a reason that is not true. I would be interested in what those reasons are if I am in such grievous error with my analysis.

  10. joe hack

    The Jenvons Paradox!

  11. joe hack

    The Jevons paradox! – N! – it’s a realty, like other elephants that needs real debate…

  12. bonbon

    “yet all Ariely’s work is based on the fundamental premise that we are deeply human, deeply emotional, irrational –”

    Really? DMcW is being groomed to make monkeys out of his followers.

    Through questionnaire after questionnaire, Kahneman and Tversky would prove that people’s “choices” were regularly irrational, as Kahneman and Twersky define reason. Hence the book of their follower, Daniel Ariely of MIT, “Predictably Irrational.”

    Here is one of Kahneman’s questionnaires: You must deal with a public health epidemic threatening 600 people. First question: One course of action would save 200. The other has a one-third chance of saving 600, and a two-thirds chance of saving none. Which would you choose? Second question: One course of action action will result in 400 deaths; the other has a two-thirds chance of 600 deaths and a one-third chance of no deaths. Which would you choose?

    Now it’s obvious: the real point is not the trivial nonsense of comparing probabilities as Kahneman tries to pretend. The real objective is the dehumanization, rather bestialization involved in submitting to such questions at all. This is the theme of the movie “Sophie’s Choice,” about the mother forced by a sadistic SS officer to choose which of her children she will sacrifice to him. This from Kahneman, who fled from the Holocaust; there is probably more to be learned about that story.

    Plenty of material available for a public debate at Kilkenny.

    • michaelcoughlan

      “trivial nonsense”

      Your specialst area bonbon.

    • michaelcoughlan

      “Really? DMcW is being groomed to make monkeys out of his followers”

      Keep posting stuff like this bonbon the more you do the more you damage yourself.

      Love cuddles and kisses,


    • 5Fingers

      Bonbon, you and Larouche etc are proof positive of the randomness of natural selection.

      If there was any rationality as you claim then you are not being laid by anyone with a brain if at all…meaning the next generation is likely to be non-existant or non-viable.


  13. bonbon

    For those who would rather check what DMcW is promoting, have a look at a brief overview of behavioral economics :
    The Daniel Kahneman, Amos Tversky Swindle

    Thaler, in addition to being an economics professor at the University of Chicago, is still on the board of the Russell Sage Foundation, which also houses the vaunted Consortium of 29, the Behaviorist Economics Roundtable, founded in 1992. Thaler, Obama and Sunstein crossed paths at the Uni Chicago. That’s what’s in the White house right now.

    It is clear that DMcW wants to be in with Obama’s gang and the British Fabian Society.

  14. bonbon

    But closer to home, as I am sure DMcW knows full well :
    What Is Their Secret?

    On April 8 2009, Tory shadow Chancellor (Treasury Secretary nominee) George Osborne, suddenly “bore witness,” at embarrassing length, to the genius of behavioral economist-kooks Richard Thaler, Robert Cialdini, Dan Ariely, and others, who have been travelling to London to advise the Tories. Osborne described the behaviorists’ so-called experiments, and pledged himself to various pathetic “behavioral economics” schemes to improve personal behavior, for instance, by encouraging recycling of garbage and by discouraging impulse buying. Whatever any of this might have to do with reversing a world economic-breakdown crisis, one can only imagine, but Osborne’s incongruous tone was that of the Damascus Road convert.

    Converted to what? Indeed, all the “behavioral economists” public utterances are so irrelevant, trivial, and boring that they can only be considered a sort of “wink and a nod” among the knowing, or a Masonic handshake. Their only actual content is their sheer bestiality. Imagine a Masonic handshake which includes a deliberate, painful wounding; but the junior initiate pretends not to feel anything.

    So at Kilkenny do not be mesmerized by “triviality”.

    • michaelcoughlan

      Hi bonbon,

      On this occasion I’d like to pay you a compliment sort of. I really enjoy your posts. Mostly they are the worst type of shit going but every now and again there is a real gem to be found in the detritus;

      It really is a pity that you suffer from the same type of complete madness as Henry
      Kissenger. If you weren’t so completely crazy observations from you like the one from the link above which helps to enlighten those of us on the board who come here to learn could be taken serious on the first reading and not force us to sift through tons of shit to find gems of this quality.

      Is mise Micheal.

  15. bonbon

    Has DMcW gone to the dogs?

    Cass Sunstein, DMcW’s nudger, published “The Rights of Animals, A Very Short Primer”. He starts his essay quoting Immanuel Kant, Jeremy Bentham, and John Stuart Mill on animal rights. He quotes Bentham: “The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which should never have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. A full grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as more conversable animal than an infant of a day, or a week or even a month…. The question is not, Can they reason? Nor, Can they talk? But, Can they suffer?” John Stuart Mill concurred, Sunstein says, raising the analogy to slavery.

    “Bentham was right to place the emphasis on whether and to what extent the animal in question is capable of suffering. If rats are able to suffer — and no one really doubts that they are—, then their interests are relevant to the question of how, and perhaps whether, they can be expelled from houses.”

    And further :

    “I believe that in the long run our willingness to subject animals to unjust suffering will be seen as a form of unconscionable barbarity — not the same as, but in many ways morally akin to slavery and mass extermination of human beings.”

  16. bonbon

    I’ll bet a silver dollar that the behaviorists have a way to convince, nudge us, into believing dog food is quite tasty, as they herd us into responsible sustainability. But highest on the list is nudging euthanasia as good for your finances. The trivia of obesity, nudge, wink, is really the war on longevity, oops expectations.

  17. bonbon

    It’s strange, but am I the only poster of anything about DMcW’s invited guests? All my posts are to the point, and on topic. Those who imply “over the top” have no heads!

    Of course a human intervention into economy, Glass-Steagall, is not the expectation of behaviorists already gone to the dogs. Glass-Steagall means standing up on two feet!

    • michaelcoughlan

      “It’s strange, but am I the only poster of anything about DMcW’s invited guests? All my posts are to the point, and on topic. Those who imply “over the top” have no heads”

      The and to your question is nobody engages with you because no one takes you serious. Your post’s to the point on topic? Fusion reactors, GS? The last bit about no heads is nonsensical gibberish.

      Keep posting bonbon the more you do the more you damage yourself.

  18. bonbon

    Between Nightmare and Graveyard: Europe Is a Ship of Fools

    Are ye all headed to Narragonia. Who would have thought it really was Kilkenny?

    • michaelcoughlan

      Non grantum anus rodentum

    • joe hack

      Bonbon It appears you have a stalker, fan or bully?

      Bully’s like to pray on the weakness others as they feel empowered by the a perceived isolation or weakness.

      • michaelcoughlan

        I’m actually a fan. The stuff he writes is so ludicrous I get great sport from it. I sincerely hope he continues to post.

        Best regards,


        • michaelcoughlan

          I also as it so happens think that bonbon is one of the most intelligent well read and informed posters on the blog. I also believe genuinely and I mean this sincerely that it is a crying shame to see such talent going to waste in a culdesac of self destructive craziness.

          • michaelcoughlan

            As for bullies,

            I leave that stuff to bonbon and his friends with their lack of respect or empathy for other members of the blog, twisting and distorting other people’s posts and ignoring requests from the owner to. Moderate their behaviour.

          • whatamess


            “cause i always gotta worry bout the paybacks,some punk that i roughed up waaaay back,coming back after all these years”


        • whatamess

          @Michaelcoughlan !

          “sport” from it …??

          your not in the same ball park, not the same same league …hell,you;re not even in the same sport as Bonbon

  19. joe hack

    What made me think of this; “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” this may be a bit vain and also we don’t want the fool to believe his unchallenged foolishness makes sense or that the foolishness become the norm…the norm is only the norm because it has not challenged.

  20. rcly123

    Interesting behavior from the person with the handle “bonbon”. I’m reminded of the quote from Sam Goldwyn:
    “Don’t pay any attention to the critics – don’t even ignore them.”
    (Accessed from

    Sam was obviously a better man than I.

    It’s just that all I read is… ad hominem, ad hominem, (ad infinitem it seams). Sorry for all the latin, but it’s at least concise.

    By the way, in Computing circles, comments to forums that are not constructive are generally listened to (read) but ignored if found to be without substance.

    • michaelcoughlan


      Bonbon is a larouche troll who has been trying to divert the forum for years to suit his/their agenda despite being asked by David McWilliams not to do so. Your observation is spot on.


    • whatamess

      are we all free to ignore you so rcly123 ?…

      don’t get dizzy running around too much in your “computing circles” ;)

      Dan Airely stuff touching a nerve ?? I’m sure he can handle the heat ( minus cyber bodyguards )

      The Truth hurts

  21. joe hack

    “His scepticism is hardly surprising when so much of traditional economics believes that people act rationally, yet all Ariely’s work is based on the fundamental premise that we are deeply human, deeply emotional, irrational – and about as far from the typical rational man that economists talk about but none of us have actually met in real life!”

    There is no deny that! it just goes to prove how important the policing of the money system is and how the fundamentals of our money supply needs parental controls… Debt as money is like a sweet shop to a kid or a drug to an addict – oft times advocated here by DMW i,e. car loans… Car seat belt laws speeding fines and penalty points- the irrational are still irrational but are aware of consequences and mostly act accordingly or if not they will be penalised!

    By saying nothing you are complicit regarding the consequences of our money system – this not ‘scepticism’ this is realty – face it…

  22. Russell Brand’s latest missive:

    Even by writing that article he’s doing something good – he’s got a large reach and people (especially young people) listen to him – who knows who he might inspire?

    I’d vote for him and I’ve been saying on here (since Brand was in shortpants(!)) that voting is an utter, UTTER waste of time.

    People who say ‘you can’t have an opinion on democracy because you don’t vote’ can f*ck right off – I can and will have an opinion on whatever I want. That’ what democracy is – not putting an X beside one tosser’s name on a long list of tossers.

    • joe hack

      “That’ what democracy is” – not voting!

      Adam democracy is still about because those that vote, vote to maintain it…

      “Nature abhors a vacuum.” (Aristotle, 360 BC)

      • Hello joe,

        The quote by Aristotle is totally irrelevant.

        The other line about ‘vote to maintain’ might be developed into an argument but as it stands it’s tenuous at best.



        • joe hack

          Adam, you say you don’t get the logic of Aristotle but you see brand as a hero set to save the planet after over 2300 years of hard work by many that died or lived to achieve it?

          I don’t think they will be talking about Brand in 2300 years but who knows – a vacuum that replaces democracy is available to view on many nightly news casts. There is nothing about it that is tenuous for the people that live in these circumstances, it’s pain is real.

          • “Adam, you say you don’t get the logic of Aristotle”

            I never said any such thing – I said the quote was irrelevant – it may very well be logical – but that would depend on the context.

            2,300 years? So what? – again, totally irrelevant.

            Next thing you are talking about people’s pain?

            Stick to rational discussion please joe hack, all due respect.

            We don’t have proper democracy at the moment joe, that’s the general point Brand is making.

            Trying to deny that with spurious remarks – well it’s not going to fool me to be honest.

          • joe hack

            2300 years of development is relevant, it demonstrate that change does not happen so fast, it demonstrates the progression or lack of progression and demonstrates that in 2300 not much has changed.

            You also misquote me -?

            We never had have proper democracy but not voting for tosser will not fix that. However thanks to likes of you my preferred tosser is more likely to be in a position of power while brand can talk until money stop coming in.

    • 5Fingers

      Been thinking about Brand. He’s just another opinionated random success. I would prefer to hear the views in this blog to be honest. All are grumpy disagreeable fckers from different backgrounds who make better sense than any media hyped spin from the Guardian.

      If you cannot vote then put yourself up there as a candidate. This democracy stuff is hard for a reason. It will never be perfect.

      • Every success is not random. Those who are successful usually generate their own luck. They are in a position to take advantage of Lady Luck because they worked hard to put themselves in a position to profit from Luck when it came.

        Successful people make decisions all the time and 90% are not correct but sooner or later the prize goes to the one who thinks they can succeed.

        Those who think other wise and dismiss as “oh , they were just lucky” use it as an excuse for their own failure.

  23. Paul Divers

    A Chairde

    Inspirational stuff David. There is nothing better
    than hearing about someone who has come back after
    life in hell.

    The most amazing things of all in this world is the
    human spirit. It never cases to amaze me.

    Thanks for sharing this story.

    Hope Kilkenomics 2013 is a success for you.

    Might make it next year and myself, Adam and the lads can
    put the world to rights in an old Dublin bar. (provided we
    can all stay cool and off the kool aids)

    Mise le meas

    • It’ll hardly be an old Dublin bar if it’s in Kilkenny, will it Paul?!

    • Come down this weekend Paul


      • joe hack

        Yes do go down and enjoy the crack which promises to be excellent you may be one of only a few that got personal invitation you will be able to stand next Dan Ariely as an equal in that respect.

        Kilkenny is great place to visit and don’t forget to bring a camera.

      • David, if you happen to get any tickets for this show –

        Good Cap/ Bad Cap-Can Capitalism be Kept on the Straight and Narrow? with F. O’Toole, M. Keiser, D. McCloskey, B. Bonner, C. Gurdgiev, K. Gildea @ Cleere’s €15/€12 75mins

        … please let me know. I’ll pay you in Bitcoin – no seriously I’ll pay you with cash.

        Otherwise, I’ll try to blag some off young Johnny in Cleere’s on the night – really want to see that show.

        By the way David, are we having a short meet up as usual, with Andrew Moonie and the rest? If so, when and where?

        My number is 086 177 0640 or you can get me on email on my phone.

    • Ryu Hayabusa

      Tá sé sin fíor, a Phól!

      The indomitability of the human spirit may be the single most important factor in extricating ourselves from this mess!

      • joe hack

        Very good, but was is not indomitability of the human spirit that got us in to this mess.

        Is it not human spirit that we should fear since there is no other to be fearful of – BUT… the hair of the dog … a vaccine…

        • Ryu Hayabusa

          I suppose Joe in part.

          It depends on which direction this ‘collective spirit’ is funnelled.

          As for the hair of the dog there may well be some tails ‘gan gruaige’ by the time this festival plays out.

  24. Ryu Hayabusa

    ‘Hide and Q’

    “What a piece of work is man…–v5Ba_cx8

  25. Ryu Hayabusa

    Speaking of things Kilkenomics I was disgruntled, nay perturbed even, where in a previous episode of KR, Max K was ‘analysing’ the performance of his ol’ buddy Michael Noonan.

    He claimed in said episode in a previous incarnation of Kilkenomics I believe that he was conversing with young people who claimed that we, the irish had a ‘moral obligation’ to stand over these odious private bank debts… which is complete bunkum

    Who was the Youngster in question? A nephew of the Mickster? that’s about the only plausible explanation. Some members of ÓGRA FG?

    Such was my disgruntlement I was of a mind to vent my spleen in a hot email.

    However, I see in this recent episode (E518) that he featured the venerable Diarmuid O Flynn of and he of Ballyhea against Bondholder Bailout fame who spoke out on the outrageous state of affairs that currently pertains here.

    Diarmuid in US parlance is a ‘stand up guy’ These people have been conducting a quiet, dignified protest for 140 weeks or so in the little village of Ballyhea near the Cork/Limerick border.

    I headed down one particular week to have a look see for myself and left suitably impressed.

    The efforts of these folk have gotten very little media attention, save for the odd scant appearance in Vincent Browne’s show. (Kudos to Vinny on that one)&I think Constantin Gurdgiev also turned up at some point.

    So I may have to bit my tongue and taper my rant.. seeing as how he redeemed himself somewhat!

    The sole caveat was his ‘Darby O’ Gill’-esque pronunciation of Diarmuid’s name which is slightly ironic given his own grappling with the term Snooker. :)

    Ronnie O’ Sullivan is the best ‘Snucker / Snickers’ player in the world!

    It’s Snoo-ker Max Keiser!!! So touché to you.

    Anyway the upshot is a softer in tone email will now be winging its way.

    • cooldude

      I watched that episode and Diarmuid O Flynn was excellent. The lumping of this odious debt on the present and future generations of this country is something that needs to be constantly discussed and challenged. Diarmuid does an excellent job in doing this and is now getting help from the independant TD’s in the Dail. Good luck to them with this and it is something which is worthy of support. Diarmuid is the type of speaker that should be in Kilkenny not some control freak waffler supporter of Barry Obomber.

      • Ryu Hayabusa

        He sure was, acquitted himself very well. And succeeded in tearing another tuft of scraggy wool from Noonan’s tatty fleece.

    • paddythepig

      David, maybe you could get Russell Brand, D O’Flynn, and councillor Mick Barry for next year.

  26. Ryu Hayabusa

    That’s ‘Bite ‘ my tongue… :)

  27. your local dealer says that gold is being monetized in Turkey and elsewhere and it is or will be a global trend.

    *Mark O’Byrne at GoldCore…

    Turkey’s gold imports jumped more than threefold in October to 15.98 metric tons, from 4.8 tons in September, according to the Istanbul Gold Exchange’s website. That’s the highest since July, the data shows.

    Turkey has already imported 251.4 metric tonnes in 2013, year to date, meaning that it will come very close to or surpass the record import year in 2005 when 269.5 metric tonnes of gold were imported.

    Year to date imports are more than double the amount of gold imports in 2012 and more than triple those in 2011.

    Some Turkish banks are now offering customers the ability to use their gold based deposits for collateral on gold backed loans and using gold as access to Turkish Lira or for access to credit cards.

    Turkey’s regulators have been discussing planned legislation to enable customers to buy or sell gold at bank branches or transfer gold into other accounts, according to an Aug. 29 report in Milliyet, a daily newspaper. Bank Asya has said it will soon start purchasing and selling bullion at its branches.

    Gold is gradually being remonetised again in Turkey and this trend will soon be seen globally.

  28. I am in agreement with Ellen Brown

    “Ireland could fix its budget problems by leaving the Eurozone, repudiating its blanket bank guarantee as “odious” (obtained by fraud and under duress), and issuing its own national currency. The currency could then be used to fund infrastructure and restore social services, putting the Irish back to work.”

    Also repeal the legal tender laws and open the currency to competition by monetizing silver coins

    • michaelcoughlan

      I’m doing my best to monetize them already Tony. I emailed you but it bounced back to me. Can you email details to me of the 20% over spot method of using silver as currency as a local money supply to


      • See you email for response

      • Hi Michael

        I’ll run through a brief method of getting the coin monetized. You will have to apply your local costs to the base spot price. Others here may have something to add.

        Here in Canada we do not pay any tax on Canadian Maple leafs as they are deemed legal tender if only at the denominated value of $5.00 which is stamped on the coin.

        At the moment The spot is listed on as $22.71 CAD. Here I would see what the premium is (usually 8%) and delivery costs, (Fedex or mail or direct pickup at a dealer) at the voulme I am buying at. Say a monster box of 500 coins (one ounce each). I would also see if other coins are available such as can be delivered from the Irish mint etc. (Cooldude could help you here as he has made prior enquiries and thought about design and costs of a unique Irish coin(s).

        In Canada a mark up of 20-25% leaves enough to provide a surplus or seigniorage (as described for a country).

        EG Spot 22.71
        Plus 20% =27.252
        Round up to nearest multiple of 5 = 30.

        Coop buys coins at 22.71 plus 8% premium 24.53.
        Delivery costs for 500 ounces say 100 or 20 cents a coin=24.73.

        Sells to members at the 30 monetized price and the coop keeps the 5.27 difference.

        If the price of silver rises on the world market, which we know it will, the monetized price is adjusted upward (it is never adjusted downward as later reasoned).

        Price on spot rises $1.50 to = 24.21
        Plus 20% = 29.052.
        Raise to the next multiple of 5 = $30 SO THERE IS NO CHANGE in the monetized value.

        Price on spot rises again to 25.50
        Plus 20% = $30.60
        rounded to the next multiple of 5 = 35

        So the monetized value is raised to $35 never to ever drop again.

        The spot price falls to $20
        Plus 20% = $24
        Next multiple of 5 is 25.
        This results in no change to the monetized value which stays at $35.

        You would use Euros to act as the measure but otherwise everything is the same as for Canada.

        The monetized value is adjusted only once a week maximum on friday night taking effect on the Sat am. This eliminates weekly fluctuations.
        It is adjusted to the nearest multiple of 5 to allow for less frequent changes. This avoids a constant adjustment process as happens on a currency exchange for example.
        When the price of spot silver drops there is a larger seigniorage to the coop and so that is a good time to stock up on coins.
        The monetized value can be published online by the coop and announced to the members and public by posted signs at the premises too.
        The public can bring their coins and shop at the coop any time. They do not have to get coin from the coop, but could buy their own at whatever price they can get them for. In this case the coop makes no seigniorage but gets extra business as the buying public will come to buy from the coop as they use the silver monetized at a higher price than the spot. some may even use the arbitrage on a regular basis.
        You do not trade the silver for cash. Just for goods purchased and give change in silver or fiat as requested.
        The monetized value NEVER drops regardless and in this regard acts just like a printed note or stamped coin. This will give the public the security of knowing that their silver coins will maintain their buying power and so will be content to retain them or spend them as they see fit. They will never drop in value but only go up.

        It is anticipated that at first the public will retain the coins as a curiosity or savings and so as the coop issues these coins as change during a transaction they will move into the community. The community may realize that any silver coins previously bought can be used as money in the coop and so more coins may appear in circulation than have been issued by the coop.

        It will be a good Idea to monetize more than one type of coin. It is easy to start with a recognized silver one ounce coin already in existence and issued by a reputable mint, but there are several of these available. to name a few……………Canadian Maple Leaf, US silver eagle, China Panda etc etc.
        Then there is the future possibility of subsidiary coinage such as half ounce, quarter ounce, 10th ounce coins. There may have to be an adjustment in the markup from 20% to accommodate the higher mint costs and premiums on the smaller coins.

        For Ireland there is VAT to consider so there is another 22% on top. That is no deterrent as the basic idea is to have money that increases purchasing power with inflation rather than use fiat which looses value year after year to inflation. Regardless of the government taxes your customers would be using money that cannot deflate to zero even if you went out of business.

        please read this through and fire off questions as this is off the top of my head and I may have missed a crucial point.

        Best Regards

  29. Kilkenomics is a brilliant production but it will lead you down the road to servitude and deprivation

    Get some real solutionproviders to present their case David. Other wise it is a waste of time.

    • joe hack

      Kilkenomics, as you should well know is an entertainment show the worrying part is that others might believe it is not.

      The likes of Max Keizer are entertainers first, he happily advocates gold for his own self interest and has publicly said as much but at least he is honest in that regard.

      There are many more in the entertainment business that like to give the appearance of activists while been paid by large media outlets.

      The enemy without/the enemy within…BP used openly admit to sponsoring protester in the 80s I don’t know if they still do this but I expect they still do…

    • bonbon

      Not the road to serfdom, but the road to Narragionia.

      I’m afraid Hayek lacked a classical education.

  30. “When the indomitable Irish spirit is awakened, organized and mobilized, the country could become the poster child not for austerity, but for economic prosperity through financial sovereignty.-Ellen Brown

  31. The end game

    I don’t know how long that will take, but I see that the Government’s pace of implementing totalitarian control is moving along a lot more quickly now than it was 10 years ago when I first starting thinking about the end game.
    Dave from Denver

    • Ryu Hayabusa

      Hi Tony,

      Perhaps one could say it’s inched along to a current ‘slow trot’

      • Next step is the canter and then the all out gallop, into one world government. Occasionally there is the next jump at which the jockey is unseated, flies off, and the horse runs wild and a stronger horse at this point wins the race.

        Sounds like China has the stronger horse.
        All the horses are from the authoritarian stable.
        Not a libertarian in sight until a jockey takes a tumble.

  32. michaelcoughlan

    Hi all,

    It seems JP Morgan Chase are not only dodgy bankers but also hopeless liars when it comes to capital controls.

    Is this the bank David that Max Keiser suggests we should crash JP Morgan and buy silver to squeeze their massive silver short position?

    Pressure must be building David.

    Control capital and squeeze more fees out of the customers by upgrading them to a higher account to allow them to transfer larger amounts of THEIR money.

    • cooldude

      Hi Michael, capital controls is not just about screwing customers for more fees. It’s a lot more sinister than that and is usually a precursor to something much more evil such as currency devaluation or the introduction of some sort of bail-in. This is all about keeping all the juicy fish in one barrel so they can kill as many as possible. Other banks will follow suit and it should escalate quite quickly. JPM have given a date of the 17th of this month after which they will limit withdrawals and prohibit foreign transfers. This could well be the start of the next major theft by the banksters and we won’t have to wait long to find out.

      By the way JPM have closed all their silver short positions and made their usual illicit fortune and are now actually long both silver and gold whilst telling everyone else to sell. Something strange this way cometh and we will find out soon.

      • michaelcoughlan

        Thanks on advice re jo Morgan closing positions. I didn’t know. Hopefully David will grill max Keiser when he meets him.

  33. joe hack

    We are Borg – I am Human with capital H:

    It’s a pity there was finally a topic that merited debate even if it was part publicity or promotion. Then there was ad hominem used as excuse to act ad hominem towards the accused.

    The indomitability of humans – but whom else!

    We are human, as that is the name we have giving to we, ourselves, the problem is with the definition of the word human and what it has come to denote or connote.

    The headline above says ‘we are all too human’ as if human is connoted as bad or fallible certainly it was not intended above to be connoted as logical or rational but then a connotation is subjective.
    We are Borg, but I am human- DMW then must be using the royal we – ‘we are all too human’.

    One person suggesting in connotative way that all humans are too human might be an assumption by the being that believes themselves to be a plural (Borg), when in fact it is an ‘I’, or a ‘you’, it is certainly not me that DMW speaks for as I believe I am rational and all others are not!

    I think I can solve this connotative definition by calling all other humans illogic’s then I am human and everyone else becomes illogic’s i.e. the humans DMW refers to are illogic’s ‘we are all (too) illogic’s’ except for I this is less connotative – I will remain human.

    I cannot find any rational in much of the above comments nor do most them relate ‘we are all too human’ but as suggested humans are irrational therefore the comments are rational human comments- but do we need Dan to tell us the obvious it seems by DMW reaction to Dan we do ….And even those Nobel people do too…

    To be told that you are human by a human might get you – a human – a prize from a human is defiantly rational human behaviour (I connote) .

    I await the postman!

    • joe hack

      “We’re all just too human” (we are all too human)

      • michaelcoughlan


        Human beings have detonated nuclear weapons over undefended cities of old men, women and children in our not too distant past.

        As warren bluff-it might say “anyone on mars looking at us would think we are crazy”. Maybe bonbon is the sanest one
        of all.

        • joe hack

          ha ha, but I think it was said along time before buffer or Ariely buffer shows how silly he is ‘anyone one on Mars’ there is no one Mars there is a Robot

          I am not to sure ETs would be any better judges after all they can’t find us or we them of course they could be avoiding us but sadly it may be the case that dolphins… are the best the universe has to offer.

        • Ryu Hayabusa

          Cause and Effect& all that.

          • joe hack

            Are you saying that dolphins are irrational too – that dolphins are just too human!…

            Gs is there no logic in life – what now is the meaning of life for the dolphin, a mortgage?
            position – position – position; Dingle / Doolin

            Dusty and Fungi are Getting in early on the property bubbles in water.

          • Ryu Hayabusa

            Dusty only got his perch ‘cos they ‘foreclosed’ on Sandy i heard tell.

            Location Location Location… and they don’t measure their plot in ‘snucker’ tables like that London lot across the pond.

  34. bonbon

    Finance Writer Ellen Brown Demands Passage of HR 129

    Her solution comes at the end of her piece and she leads with the demand to “Restore the Glass-Steagall Act separating depository banking from investment banking. Support Marcy Kaptur’s H.R. 129.” The full text of her posting can be found here.

  35. bonbon

    Strange the Tiger avoidance of actually commenting on DMcW’s behaviorists. It seems anything other than the theme is game.

    Skittish, not Scottish, I would say !

  36. joe hack

    The corporations and others are well aware that they can’t fight fire with fire so they simply remove the source of the fuel supply.

    They do this by employing vocal people to play the part of an activist the likes of Brand and Keizer dilute the anger/passion ; it’s not a full sexual release that achieved but more like masturbation but it takes the edge of the anger and helps to keep the baying mob sated.

    These paid activists are the obvious ones, well at least they should be, there is also the bono types that do the f*’#king sucking up type of activism.

    There is another enemy of reform or change which takes place online…on TV….there is only one reality.

    Beware you are been sexually sated (abused) by strangers while at the same time you are allowing yourself to be jerked off and sated by online blogs.

    There nothing like the real thing – Birds do it, bees do it even educated fleas do it

    Be more HUMAN, be irrational, get mad… Stop been jerked off… do the real thing the release will make the earth move… there is nothing better that the real thing…feel the earth move under your skin…

  37. Ryu Hayabusa

    The current scenario in Greece is cranking up too.

    Drive by killings of a couple of Golden Dawn members hot on the heels of the left wing guy at that café.

    The clips of darkened IMF vehicles being shepherded hurriedly out of town! At a quick glance they might have been fleeing a scene from a suburb of Damascus.

    24 hour General Strike in train.

    The sands of time are running out on this Powderkeg.

  38. Ryu Hayabusa

    I should more appropriately have said the ‘troika’ were whisked out!

    • joe hack

      It proves masturbation eventually rubs people up the wrong way and when they figure out they are been jerked off by others they get more frustrated.

      The pity is to bring about change people have had to die and generally the people that die are not the cause of the problem but a result, shame on those in a position to act.

  39. Ryu Hayabusa

    How about this for indominatability! Apart from the bump on the noggin bit.

    Why didn’t she go to the hospital? She said she wanted to die running… Be careful what you wish for!


    Gold Standard: the Perfect Prescription

    Jeff Nielson

    Everyone needs to read this three times and drill it into their head.
    All else is bullshit and a waste of time. GS is Gob Shite
    We are not all too human we are all too damn stupid the comprehend the truth. Too doped up on a debt based fiat Ponzi scheme.

    WAKE UP, SOBER UP, DETOX It is your life so take control of it.

  41. whatamess

    “Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who’ve ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don’t need. We’re the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War’s a spiritual war… our Great Depression is our lives. We’ve all been raised on television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won’t. And we’re slowly learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed off.”

    Unquestionably,i say,a cinematic classic and it’s message(s) are clear

    Get REAL

    Get it ?

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