February 14, 2013

Big deals are meaningless if people are waiting for credit

Posted in Irish Independent · 264 comments ·
Share 

The other day, a woman stopped me on Wicklow Street and asked: “If there is so much money around for the big things, why is there so little money about for the little things?”

As far as she was concerned, if the ECB and the Government could somehow find tens of billions to finance bank bailouts, if they could find a way to roll up huge debts and put these debts on interest only for decades before principal was paid, why couldn’t they do the same for her loans, of mere thousands?

Nor could she figure out, if so much money had been funnelled into the banks by now, why couldn’t her small company borrow a few thousand euro from these same banks?

These are fair questions and they sum up the gap between the apparent lack of credit on the ground and what is happening in the world of international finance, where we see huge deals like the recent Anglo one and, on the same day, Michael Dell borrowing €26bn to take his company Dell Computers private.

This disparity is one of the central dilemmas facing not just Ireland but many other economies, too.

While very big deals are getting done in the world of international finance, very small ones are curtailed in the world of local business.

The conundrum is that, ultimately, the credibility of the big deals can only be based on the effectiveness of thousands of tiny deals that grease the wheels of the economy. If the small businesses are not getting enough finance, the economy won’t grow. Therefore, the growth projections, upon which the big deals are based, could falter, undermining the central assumptions of these mega-deals.

At last year’s Global Irish Forum in Dublin Castle, one of the American delegates made a valid point when talking about the credit crunch for small companies. He noted, it wasn’t so much that small companies hadn’t enough credit, they hadn’t enough customers as well.

Both customers and credit are related, and the lack of both can be explained by what Keynes called a “liquidity trap” in the 1930s.

This is when interest rates don’t work. In fact, Keynes famously described cutting interest rates in a liquidity trap as being as effective as “pushing on a string”.

In normal times, when interest rates fall, those with savings decide that there is no real return on savings, so they spend instead. In addition, while there are many savers who just don’t want to spend, their savings don’t stay in the banks’ vaults, this money is recycled by the banks and lent out to those who want to invest and spend.

This is a central role of the banks in the economy. When they are working properly, they match savers and investors, keeping money flowing around the economy. For this circular flow of cash to run smoothly, you need people who want to invest, people who want to save and banks that bring both together. But what if one or all of these pieces of this jigsaw is not working?

What if the people are carrying too much debt and, even at low rates of interest, they don’t want to borrow?

Or what if the people in debt choose to pay back the debt they already owe, irrespective of the rate of interest? Or what if the banks are carrying too much bad debt and they don’t want to lend?

In this case, it doesn’t matter how low the rate of interest goes, it won’t kick-start lending and investing and the economy gets stuck.

This is what the lady on Wicklow Street was referring to. She couldn’t figure out how there were billions available for the banks and nothing for their customers.

The core of the problem is that the money is getting stuck in the banks. It is not because the banks don’t want to lend. After all, that’s how banks make money; without lending they have no business.

It is because there are so many loans still going bad and the banks have to cover these non-performing loans with cash and then don’t have enough cash to lend out.

While these types of problems are being faced by small companies all over Europe, a quick look at a recent ECB and Central Bank survey shows that Irish SMEs are facing credit conditions significantly tougher than the euro-area average.

According to the ECB, the share of Irish firms reporting increased interest rates was 15pc higher than the euro-area average, despite the fact that interest rates have never been lower.

Also, non-interest costs of finance, such as fees and charges, have increased 7pc more for firms in Ireland than elsewhere.

Meanwhile, the size of loan available decreased by 28pc more for firms in Ireland than the average.

As the banks are terrified of loans going belly-up again, collateral requirements increased 12pc more for Irish firms than the average.

The result is that rejection rates for loan applications are 48.6pc in the Irish data, as opposed to 21.3pc on average in the euro area.

Not surprisingly, demand for bank credit in Ireland is marginally lower than the euro-area average, with demand for overdrafts and trade credit above average.

But here is the problem: loan performance data shows that 30pc of Irish SME loans were either in default or were in arrears.

There is significant variation in loan performance across sectors of activity. But as you would expect, hotels, restaurants, construction, wholesale and retail are the large sectors with the highest share of non-performing loans.

And evidencing the splurge in the boom, the larger the initial loan, the more likely it is to be non-performing in all sectors.

As the great British economist John Stuart Mill noted, “the crash doesn’t destroy wealth, it merely exposes how much wealth has been destroyed by stupid lending and borrowing in the boom period”.

For all this to end, bad loans will have to be written off completely or written down to levels where the debtors can pay.

This will have to be done quickly because the longer we prevaricate, the more the woman on Wicklow Street will wait for new credit.

Without new credit, there are no new customers and we bounce along the bottom.

In order to cleanse the balance sheet quickly, the banks need sufficient capital to absorb these losses on bad debts.

The banks were recapitalised last year to make sure they had enough capital to get on with the job.

Let’s hope they got their sums right and, as they say themselves, past performance is not indicative of future results.


  1. Adam Byrne

    They are not going to do a blanket deal across the economy as a whole – moral hazard and all that.

    So it’s up to individual entities (people and businesses) to go in the bank, scream the house down and demand some sort of deal with the bank, and to threaten to completely default if no deal is forthcoming. That’s Capitalism.

    I’d do exactly that, I’d bully the hell out of the bank manager if I had to, I’d make his life a LIVING HELL – but luckily enough I’m one of those people who never borrows money, and owes no-one nothing – in other words, a free man. Screw the banks.

    Actually luck, has nothing to do with it. I don’t want other people’s money, full stop.

    • 5Fingers

      And long may it stay that way for you Adam. Others of good intention may not have the wit or energy to be so prepared. It is they that need a hand.

    • bonbon

      Actually the banks are “screwed”, but the economy does not need to come to a “full stop” to suit “free people”.

      Screaming is not capitalism, nor wallowing.

      • MidasMoney

        You can sing that Bonbon. The problem with this country is that we are a nation of pussies. Whinge whinge whinge. We have governments which which do the bidding of the international bankers and euro elites, not that of those who elected them. And we don’t call them on it. Internationally, it is clear that politicians are either bribed of blackmailed to act as they do.

        If Irish people had any bottle, we would be in the streets in droves, with effigies of Louis and Marie Antoinette, followed by Mde la Guillotine. We would besiege Leinster House and the constituency offices of our politicos, we would send them petitions in the thousands to every Govt TD, vowing to oust them at the next election. We would demand that they work for those who pay their offensively bloated salaries and perks, and not their BFF in Europe and the international banks.

        But that is not for us timid Irish. That might be seen as unseemly, or just making a fuss, and we can’t be having that. What would the neighbours think for heavens sake? Far better to just bitch and moan on the likes of this site or down the pub. Apathy is the real killer. Someone once said that in an autocratic system, the people are afraid of the Government, and in a democracy, the politicians are afraid of the people. No democracy there then. We only have the power when we choose to seize and deploy it, and as a people, we just don’t seem to have the bottle.

        I leave you with the words of Percy Bysshe Shelley from “The Mask of Anarchy” ;

        “Rise like lions after slumber,
        in unvanquishable number.
        Shake your chains to earth like dew
        which in sleep had fallen on you-
        ye are many, they are few”

        Or as Thomas Jefferson put it;

        “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilisation, it expects what never was, and never will be”

  2. Deco

    Basically, you are seeing the politicisation of the financial lending system. The state is now in increasing control of the financial lending system. Politicians (who have a proven record as liars, on aggregate) are now holding increased power over the financial system.

    To well connected to fail, is now becomming to well connected to refuse a loan.

    Unfortunately, this is inherently meritocratic.

    In fact if we allowed banks to either fail, or get management cleanouts – there would have been an improvement in the intellectual capacity running the banks. Instead there has been a Marxist intervention program for incompetent bankers.

    I expect continued underperformance. It is a certainty.

  3. redriversix

    Winston Churchill called it the “black dog”…….

    Been pretty good the last couple of months but the dog came to visit again last week,getting harder to shake off………….

    trying to keep those close to you strong while inside your screaming…………

    P.T.S.D & depression is some fucking combination…staring at laptop,rubbing forehead,another article about Banks,good,well written & appreciated David………..

    unfortunately doesn’t mean shit out here or down here or wherever it is we are in the system…..

    Banks aren’t lending money ? no surprise their,why bother ? getting well paid no risk,borrow cheap cheap money,leave on deposit..why bother ? buy Irish Government bonds instead guaranteed to get paid , no hassle..no brainer.

    Cut costs , close branches,make staff redundant,promote internet Banking …..all the time reducing costs.

    “where’s my cigarettes”..?

    • Adam Byrne

      Keep your chin up Barry. Easy to say I know.

      • hibernian56

        I know the feeling, just back from a building site. Trying to convince the builder to plow on, but he can’t get credit for materials, the client is still waiting for his draw down after two weeks.

        The builder has a choice, pay staff to stand around or send them home. It was a short day. No money, no materials, no work.

        The bank in question is a NAMA bank. They don’t care as RR6 said, they get paid either way. They either are oblivious to the problems they are causing or just couldn’t give a flying Monkeys left testicle. I think it’s the latter.

        Most of the energy of the government and the mandarins these days is not making the citizen happy, its making sure we can get “back to the market” so they can borrow on behalf of the citizens to pay for their pensions.

        At least the weather is good. Oh, and I learned another great expression today when one of the builders was looking at a steel schedule… “I might as well be looking up a Bull’s hole”. You gotta laugh. A classic even by Cork standards.

        Don’t mind the cigarettes, where’s my Uzi?

        • molly

          Back to the markets means more money to borrow to put us further into the red.
          What this government needs is money on the never never you never have to pay it back,
          Where’s me oil well.

          • Tony Brogan

            Well said Molly.

            There have been proposals on this blog for just such money. Easily done and issued through treasury.

            Not even looked at or debated by David or anyone else for that matter.

            Non so blind as those who refuse to see.

          • molly

            This government are a clone of FF and follow the same policy’s they are so far removed from real everyday people that they can’t listen to the very people who elected them.
            Remember how LAB and FG accused FF of not paying attention to the people and it was said that’s the main reason why FF where kicked out of office.
            FG are dangerous and LAB are useless so put the two of these togather and you end up with a government controlled by FG.
            Now stand back and people can see where FG is leading us and its like the devil leading people into the fires of hell.

    • Grey Fox

      Six,
      I think it’s time for a coffee, although I may not be sterling company, damn transmission went on the wagon today, have to find 1,800 washers, maybe I’ll issue a Bond!
      Some people are still living in a dream world, trannyman said it would cost 50 an hour labour and the book says the job will take 6 hours, I replied, in the times we find ourselves in, would you not think it prudent to temper the hourly rate and charge for actual hours worked instead of “what the book says”!
      Won’t make any differ either way, unless I stand there with a stopwatch and clipboard…. ‘scuse me while I apply some lube…. losing the will to live…

    • Dorothy Jones

      Keep goin’ Barry. Just keep on putting one foot in front of the other, and just don’t stop. It’s a cruel time, but the world turns on its axis, and hope might go away for a little bit, but it returns. You’ve done a huge thing already, so like the last few miles in a marathon, it’s just a bit of extra pain to get over the line.
      I’ve been juggling wolves and they nearly broke the old back alright, and they might get there yet, but dont let them do that. Life is far too precious and fragile.
      If you put a pair of battered runners on in the early hours and set out in the rain, no-one notices the tears. The blacker the day, the further to run. Friendly faces appear, even on dark days. Didn’t think that it was physically possible to cry that much, but it is.

      • redriversix

        Thank you Dorothy….

        it is true what they say,you put out how you feel and good people come back to you..

        Another example of scrapping pride,fear & anxiety and say how you are feeling..

        Happy Valentines Day !

  4. redriversix

    Found My Cigarettes…..!

    On the bright side 11 years clean & sober today !!! yipee !

  5. My Take on This is :

    The Policies of Honohan to get tough with Mortgage Holders are on a collision course with DMCW .

    • redriversix

      John..the sooner the Banks get tougher as Honohan suggests …the better,then we can fight these fuckers out in the open instead of small skirmishes and acts of resistance against eviction across the Country……

      As for the “markets”….. they are far from “free”

      it truly is a time were the pen is mightier than the sword …

      Hibernian 66 Uzis are wildly inaccurate……..!

      Thanks Adam,good job I haven’t got a glass chin..!

      • Johno

        Well I can tell ya red the bank’s are gearing up for a war. They are assembling an army. I work for a bank and every month or two we get an email asking if we know friends or family who would like a job in collections. They are about to take on another 13 this month and rumor of another 20 next month. Giving the other side of the office a very quick head count i say they are in and around 100 staff over there. Think they are meant to make 50-60 calls a day. Kind of paints a picture of how many calls are made to customers who are in arrears. They do look after credit card loans and mortgages.

        • redriversix

          Thanks for the info Johno…keep it coming

          • Harper66

            Hi Barry,
            I hope your feeling better and the black dog is far from the door.Courage.

            @Johno
            I full agree with your comment that the banks are gearing up for a war.

            It is my understanding that there was massive legal issues surrounding a very large amount of property based transactions carried out during the “boom ” years. The banks are quietly working to address this.

            Once these “issues” are sorted out and the time is right ,politically speaking, the banks will move.

  6. David, Hope I’m not breaking any rules by posting here. For anyone who is currently dealing with the Banks or has dealt with them successfully, I have created a private social network for people to share their experiences. Personally I have done deals and the funny thing is that when you eventually get talking to the person who can agree a write-off they are delighted to do the business with you.

    Anyway we are just starting off check out http://www.underwater.ie . This isn’t a business , isn’t an advice site, I will never put ads on there, or share anyones details, I just want to see if we can help people help each other.

  7. gizzy

    We do not have a Banking system. We recapitalised Banks to allow them write down debt over many years on a drip basis while their marketing departments carry on a charade of ‘We are open for Business’. This was clear from day one.

    The only way and this detailed proposal was put to this and the last government was to open a new Business and Mortgage Bank where the capital injection could not be snaffled by a legacy loan book.

    The Strategy of Nama and the Pillar Banks was wrong three years ago, is wrong now and will be wrong into the future. Well wrong if you want to get an economy moving. Not wrong if your aim is to repay all bondholders, the ECB and bury loads of stuff that politicians on all sides and particularly senior civil servants never want coming out.

    I was told it is the senior civil servants that have stopped the Banking Enquiry.

    • bonbon

      Exactly, the question is how to get a functioning banking system back again. That is the point of Glass-Steagall. Stalling this produces zombie banks.

  8. 5Fingers

    David, you say…”There is significant variation in loan performance across sectors of activity. But as you would expect, hotels, restaurants, construction, wholesale and retail are the large sectors with the highest share of non-performing loans.” This is THE key point that explains all our issues. All these sectors are money churner secondary/tertiary industries. None are makers. Ireland needs to work from a bedrock of real wealth generation and we are still ill-equipped to grasp the opportunities.

    A couple of weeks ago, you treated us to an article on the UK being our most important trading partner. Actually, when you peer under the hood, it is just a transhipment point. Very little is made in the UK. That explains their problems as well. It is just a giant retail shop and Ireland is just a sub-tenant of the UK & Ireland retail complex.

    Back to the Article. If I were a bank, I’d run a mile from anyone dependent on sectors you mentioned (like the lady you were speaking to I suspect) because banks are well aware of the saver and debt pay-down dynamics in play today. Injecting money into these kinds of businesses achieves nothing of itself – it’s inflating a punctured balloon. As I think you imply, “makers” are getting those loans.

    Until the proportion of our workforce is working in the maker parts of our economy (Farming, Processing, Manufacturing in all its forms, Expertise input and sharing (you name it) reaches a certain point, only then will we witness a growth in solid savers who feel flush enough and secure enough to pump money into the churning economy – which, let’s face it, is also under huge pressure from internet buying and selling

    Government plays a big role in the maker economy – for example if it stimulated new work in public programs for power generation (not just putting building together), it could spawn an export capability in that area. Are people aware of the massive exports of the Electricity supply board of its expertise in managing and building whole grids in the US and further afield. I think others here can point to better examples of what is practical.

    • Original-Ed

      “Government plays a big role in the maker economy”

      It’s bust and overpriced in all its activities – we’re not just caught in a trap, its jammed and nobody can release it.

    • bonbon

      If you “peer under the hood”, you find the financial services, the problem. Aside from the physical economy is in destruct mode.

      If you peer above the hood, you realize huge programs are necessary, along the lines of the Marshall Plan, New Deal, NAWAPA 21, and the Shannon Deep Harbour.

      And the ESB must go nuclear. Kowtowing to greenie energy has even stopped in Japan.

      • jaysus

        Nuclear would be a huge benefit to Ireland, only problem is the sheer ignorance of most of the population who will object based on non scientific arguments against. We need a miracle to ever see a nuclear power station built here…

        • Adam Byrne

          Sheer ignorance, exactly.

        • bonbon

          It is not ignorance, but a sustained international onslaught on the very idea. Led by such characters as Al Gore, Prince Philip, Dr. Schellnhuber, and Obama. Merkel has done far more damage by hysteria alone to a country leading this technology.

          So to promote nuclear means taking on the green pest head on. And is is a genocidal pest.
          David Attenborough Again Demands: Depopulate the Planet

          • Adam Byrne

            Of course it’s ignorance Mr. bonbon. You don’t have to disagree with everything I say, just for the sake of it. That’s pure obstructionism on your part.

            Regarding the international onslaught,can you resist it? Can I? Have you ever lived outside this country? If so, where? Give us a straight answer Mr. bonbon.

            I’m all for nuclear, renewable energy, depopulation and space travel/colonization, put that in your pipe and smoke it dude.

    • gizzy

      Fine Gael had a new Infrastructure Bank in its manifesto to support the type of businesses you mention and dropped it a few weeks before the election for its Pillar Bank Strategy. Your sector comments are correct however the only sector currently being supported by the Banks is the Banking Sector.

    • 5Fingers

      Original-Ed, Bonbon, Gizzy, 100% agree. We are strangled by messy and lazy thinking. Was watching Max Kieser’s latest on Cargo Cult thinking. Very very succinct – unfortunately.

  9. transitionman

    Maybe its my twisted sense of humour but this video of Roger on European debt was what I was thinking of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5QwKEwo4Bc
    while I watched this excellent plain english presentation By Prof Terrence Mc Donouaghon the signifiance on last weeks Its been noted and in my opinon one of the last nails in what most thought was democracy.
    I would love to see a Pat Shortt production entitled Noonans 3 card trick

    here. http://dublinopinion.com/2013/02/12/prof-terrence-mcdonough-on-the-irish-promissory-note-deal-galway-12-feb-2013/

  10. bonbon

    An ocean of money, money everywhere and not a drop to drink!

    What DMcW is actually describing, is best shown as the metaphor of the Typical Collapse Function.

    The stratospheric monetarist efforts and the destruction of the physical economy is the paradigm that the people in the street are astounded by. The very efforts, hysterical by now, to “pump”, “leverage”, “prime” push the process even further to destruction.

    What, one wonders, drives this seeming bear trap that no-one appears able to sidestep? What lurking assumption shared by wallowers and the “brightest” alike?

    Monetarism, be it Keynsian, Austrian School or Milton Friedman’s Chicago School of the IMF Plan, and the widely held, and wild-eyed, belief in money as some kind of magic wand tool. This is the gorilla under the carpet.

    • Adam Byrne

      Give it a rest Mr. bonbon. You’ve done it to death a million times.

      • bonbon

        No rest for the wicked.

        By the way do you know of Ugland House?

        • Adam Byrne

          I mean, give the bleedin’ Hayek/Hamilton/Austrian crap a break, it’s a waste of time for everyone, including yourself.

          No, I have not heard of Ugland House, what is it?

          • Adam Byrne

            I see it: that is the opposite end of the Caribbean from where I operate. It’s almost 1,500 miles away with a lot of countries in between.

          • bonbon

            You are indeed a master wollower, well spoken, literate, experienced in the ponzi world. A professional wallower one could say.

            It is a choice, to be or to wallow.

          • Adam Byrne

            Haha! What on earth is a ‘wollower’?

          • bonbon

            Keeping distance to Ugland is advisable. Yet with 12,000 business in one building is astounding. Imagine how much tax-evasion that Tower of Babel handles!

            Wallowing and venting are the unwritten rules today – the trough.
            Breaking the rules stirs up quite a scurry.

          • Adam Byrne

            I wouldn’t go near it Mr. bonbon (Ugland) – not my bag.

            I am working my ass off here, not wallowing. I don’t mind your comments but the Hayek/Austrian/Hamilton/Glass Seagull et al nonsense needs to be put to bed. Move on man.

            Cheers.

          • bonbon

            Wollowing is hard work. So is Glass-Steagall, but he outcome is different. It involves DMcW’s central theme of how to get credit moving for the economy. This is a regular item here and will not go to bed. DMcW will not drop that ball either. Neither will I.

          • Grey Fox

            No. 5 Harbourmaster Place IFSC would be Ireland’s Tower of Babel/Ugland

          • bonbon

            The IFSC tower of babel sounds more and more like an offshore carribean haven for the City of London. Looks like it is the City’s cats paw in the Euro zone.

  11. I want to take this opportunity to wish all the beautiful Ladies on this site a Happy Valentine Day .

  12. bonbon

    The Biggest Building in the World, Ugland House !

    Obama’s Treasury Sec. to-be, Jacob Lew, to replace Geithner, cross-questioned by Senators Hatch and Grassley :

    Sen. Grassley went after Lew’s personal investments in the Cayman Islands during his stint at Citigrooup.

    GRASSLEY: Now to something that President Obama has made a big deal. On May 4, 2009, President Obama said about Ugland House, which is where you invested your money overseas, “On the campaign, I used to talk about the outrage of a building in Cayman Islands that had over 12,000 business. And I’ve said before, either this is the largest building in the world or the largest tax scam in the world.” You invested more money there than the average American makes in an entire year. Do you believe the president was accurate in referring to the building which housed your investment as, “The largest tax scam in the world?”

    ……..
    A building with 12,000 “businesses”, today’s Tower of Babel.

  13. Original-Ed

    “its making sure we can get “back to the market” so they can borrow on behalf of the citizens to pay for their pensions”

    You’re spot on there – this mad rush to borrow expensive money from the markets is all about getting back to control so that they can help themselves without having to reform – happy days for them equals a back breaking burden for the ordinary citizen.

  14. bonbon

    To release credit into the physical economy, DMcW’s conundrum, Glass-Steagall must be signed back into law. No other well-meaning move can possibly work. The fear of monetarists that liquidity will dry up is daft.

    Jacques Cheminade campaigned in France for the Presidency on this crucial theme.

    Cheminade on French National TV Demands Glass-Steagall-Style Banking Separation. Has a War on Finance Begun?

    • Tony Brogan

      GS is gold and silver and need to be monetised. then issue treasury money interest free and debt free No need for a central bank and particularly a Hamiltonian central bank.
      Return the money to the public and not the state.

      • bonbon

        A Specie Resumption to “hard currency” would cause a depression to dwarf the Long Depression of the 1875, and the 1933 Great Depression.

        It is rather clear by now to all that the way to deal with the insane hyperinfaltion is splitting banks, especially the 6 To Big To Fail-ures, and immediately starting reconstruction with massive programs and Hamiltonian Credit Systems. Those private groups with some capital to contribute are very welcome to join in the fun.

        • Tony Brogan

          So says you, but if you actually read what was posted you would see that there was no proposal to go to a monetary gold or silver standard. But to simply mometise silver and gold and allow to circulate as money along side treasury notes that would replace the usurious central bank money.

          • bonbon

            So you mean a private issue of money? Alongside national emitted notes? That looks like back to the days before the Greenback, with 480 notes in circulation, causing another crash.

            Anyway it is now clear that the “British gold standard” is catastrophic for the physical economy in desperate need of Reconstruction. The UK article on the Greenback Pound is the mischievous way to go.

            If we all focused on the physical economic reconstruction that must urgently start, the monetary issues will solve themselves. I think the theme of credit is a start in this direction.

          • bonbon

            A strange irony popped up. Weidmann, staunch opponent of Draghi’s pumping, is a follower of Hayek. See the link below, Denationalization of Money, which in fact gave us the Euro and ECB!

            So it is correct to say Austrian School policies are already in full force, and produced the worst central bank of all.

          • Tony Brogan

            Your a mad man laRouche bon bon

  15. bonbon

    Obama’s Finance Secretary-Designate, Jacob Lew, Rejects “Anachronistic” Glass-Steagall in Confirmation Hearing

    The conundrum for monetarists of all stripes is easily laid bare by any thinking person on the street. They have no answer to a simple question of why with so much money no business gets credit? The limp hand-waving from “experts” is, make no mistake about it, is glaringly plain to see.

    Now see Mr. Lew’s limp stuttering hand-waving on Glass-Steagall and see what company ye are keeping.

  16. A Telephone Mindset Response Strategy to Intimidating Banks needs to be thought out to safeguard suicides of the vulnerable in society .

  17. Realist

    David’s articles are becoming more and more absurd.
    I am going to take a long break from this site, for a couple of months for a sure.
    It is all useless as he cannot see the root cause of issue, the concepts, the logic.
    I just cannot read this nonsense anymore.

    • You said that before ….it must be hard nevertheless .Just relax

    • bonbon

      I suggest for your further reading, LaRouche: On The Urgent Need for a Hamiltonian Credit System

      A change is as good as a rest. Something von Mises and Hayek never dreamt of.

      • Tony Brogan

        Your proposal is equally part of the problem. ring fenced or not the banks will still produce unlimited credit sponsored by central banks unaffected by GS legislation.
        I repeat.
        Hamilton was a central banker, a Rothschild inlaw married to the family. A bankers banker.
        Your thinking on this issue is as moribund as McWillams or Wolf and will complete the enslavement of the people with debt.

        • george

          Tony could you please explain to me in simple terms what is that you propose as a solution? Is currencies backed by gold? Thanks!

          • Tony Brogan

            George

            You read the piece I wrote below. It is a part of the solution. It largely removes the current debt and gives some relief to the indebted. It revoked odoious debt, and pays off central bank fiat paper debt with treasury money which is debt free and thus interest free.
            Cooldude mentions it and he rightly has reservations as it is not a complete solution.

            The major problem is that the central banks are not controled by any restriction in printing out or issuing any amount of currency and all currency issued by central banks is a debt and draws interest.The central bank is a modern creation and not required.

            Treasury is under the control of the minister of finance and so the people take back the ownership of the means of production of the currency.

            The treasury money is issued debt free and draws no interest. But it is also subject to no restriction in amounts printed.

            Why is this a concern. It has been demonstrated that expansion of the money supply is actually dilution of the rest of the currency. The term inflation is more correctly applied to the expansion of the money supply as the total amount of money is inflated.

            Inflation is a matter of perspective. The tide goes out and all the boats drop in level compared to the land. However the people on the boat see the land appear to rise. We know the truth is the water moving up and down

            Likewise we are told that inflation is rising prices. but is it. In fact it is the falling value of the currencies. This can be seen as the rate of movement in pricing varies in different currencies while the value of the good remains static. You can
            see this in the pricing of international commodities like oil or goldand silver.

            The second part of the plan is to repeal the legal tender laws and allow people to choose which money they wish to use in settlement.

            The third part is to monetise the use of silver and gold coin as money. Having the people allowed to use money as it pleases them will mean a citizen is not stuck if the domestic currency devalues too much or indeed at all. They will be able to protect them selves but choosing a money not going down in value.

            For centuries gold and silver have beena preferred money. With the help of others I have devised a plan to monetize silver. You can read it here.

            http://www.tonybrogan.com/?m=201302

            The proposal to monetise silver can stand alone.
            This needs to be implemented first, and then Treasury money issued secondly.
            Treasury money issued without the monetization of silver coin will not be sucessful as the government will see fit to print to gat abandon as they do with central bank fiat.We would still be subject to debasement of the currency. silver coin will keep the system honest.

          • bonbon

            A thundering silence on the physical economy, there. Typical of monetarist “solutions”, a fascination with monetary tokens.

            The silence is reaching a deafening crescendo now, most are noticing the void. The person in the street has begin to as the right question, and demands answers, not silence.

        • bonbon

          Gold never was and cannot be a “solution”. The one time gold was enforced with the Specie Resumption Act caused a massive crash – The Long Depression, overshadowed by the Great Depression later. FDR took the US off the Gold standard and solved that depression.

          This is Hamiltonian banking in action. What brings this modern way of thinking to the table is the Triple Curve which shows the catastrophic collapse of the physical economy avoided at all costs by goldbugs as it betrays the utter incompetence of the “hard money” faction.

          • bonbon

            The Lincoln Greenback, as the UK Column called for a Greenback Pound, is the way to deal with Reconstruction.

          • Tony Brogan

            You are fixated on being anti gold. It was not mentioned as a ‘solution’

            Once there has been a credit boom a bust is inevitable. Right in the middle of one now bon bon and not a gram of gold in sight to blame for it.

            The 30′s depression was caused by the unlimited expansion of currency in the 20′s when Germany in particularly printed the currency to oblivion. both Britain and Germany went off the gold standard in 1912 to pump the money supply to pay for the armament of pending war. The massive inflation broke both countries but reparations lumbered Germany with the debts of all.

            FDR was a statist and stole private property from his citizens..Gold he confiscated gold at $20 per ounce and immediately revalued the gold to balance the books at $35 per ounce. FDR did not take the US off the gold standard . He used gold to balance the nations books. Bretton Woods agreement in 1944 fixed all currencies against the US dollar and a fixed value of gold to the dollar.

            The US recovery was after WWll a long time after FDR death.
            the UK recovered after the war in the 1950′s

            Inflation nearly broke the US again and Nixon went off the gold standard in 1971. since then all hell has broken loose as all countries print with abandon in a competitive devaluation of currencies.

            No gold in sight for this bon bon and if it had been there would not be a fraction the problem we have.

            So gold not being money caused profligate spending.
            It is time it returned to impose the needed discipline

            The US will have to balance their books again soon and when they do gold will likely be at excess of $3,500 an ounce just 100 times more in value. That is about right as the US dollar has lost 98.5% of its buying power compared to gold , over the last 100 years.And that at 1640 per ounce.
            There is a good chance that with all the QE to infinity that gold will need to be $10,000 an ounce to balance the books.

            There is a good reason why the amount of gold bought by central banks in 2012 was the most in 60 years. Most of the nations of the world see the new gold standard on the horizon and will welcome its arrival. Only the few uneducated arrogant western governments will be left behind.

          • bonbon

            Education means understading the effect of the Specie Resumption Act which caused the Long Depression after Lincoln’s Greenback was stopped. Many well educated around the world understand perfectly well.

            It is arrogant to presume the British Gold Standard will solve anything. Rothschild realized exactly that the mischievous financial policy of Hamilton meant the end of international usury. Time for Hamilton immediately, and a Greenback Pound!

          • bonbon

            The US recovery by FDR in the 1930′s delivered the fatal blow to fascist economics so admired by Keynes, Hayek and Friedman. FDR applied Hamiltonian methods and built the most advanced economy ever seen. The TVA, based on the Shannon scheme here in Ireland is a model for the China 3 Gorges generator. Today, now, we will do what FDR showed works, splitting the banks, and Reconstruction. Call it a Greenback pound, Hamiltonian banking. We will leave the worthless toxic private property to the investment bankers – they can keep it.

    • Tony Brogan

      Keep the faith partner. You are exhauting yourself. so stay with it at a measured pace. The prize goes not to the faster or strongest man but sooner or later to the one who thinks he can. (paraphrased {:-))

      Right is might, truth will out!

    • cooldude

      Hi Realist, don’t be so frustrated. David is just playing it by the modern Keynesian speel epitomized by the likes of Krugman, Roth and his new hero Martin Wolfe at the FT. As we both know if money printing could bring economic progress Zimbabwe and Argentina would be two of the most prosperous countries in the world. It doesn’t work and cannot work. What lies next will probably be a move to a central bank led debt free government controlled money system. This is now being pushed by the media with the likes of Paul Ferguson, who contributes here, and Ellen Brown. Whilst this would be an improvement on the current mess unless there is a choice to use other more stable forms of money it is still just another path to a totalitarian future which will be a cashless society where the government control all payments much like the foodstamp program in the US at he moment. This also happens to be the system preferred by the National Socialist Party in Germany during the 1930′s.
      The thing is that we are now getting lose to the point where either this Keynesian nonsense on steroids either works or we head into some really serious side effects such as extreme or even hyper inflation. This will not last four more years and will probably start within the next eighteen months. So then you can come back and lecture David on where and why he went wrong.
      If you want to meet for a coffee and a chat during your self imposed sabatical give me a text on 086 2592631 and we can meet for a chat,
      Don’t be disheartened by the lack of understanding here and in general. Real economic thought was banned from our education system a long time ago. None of this is accidental and it is part of a deliberate plan to turn the middle classes into debt slavery throughout the western world. Quite successfully I might add. Anyway keep the faith and give me a shout if you want a chat.

      • Hi Cooldude,

        Just bear in mind that under our proposal no money would ever be ‘deleted’ through loan repayments or otherwise. The same money would circulate and fund many projects. As such the central bank would only ‘top up’ the money supply in line with products & services and so neither the Government, nor the central bank, would have total power.

        • Tony Brogan

          Paul

          There is no requirement to increase, decrease or meddle with the money supply in an economy. No committee or indidvidual will ever get the adjustment correct.
          A. they do not have all the information and
          B. they are always operating with las months or last years information they do have.
          C. this leads to incorrect signals and malnvestment and an inefficient economy with a lowerinf standard of living. This is particularly observable since 1971 and the unprecidented era of unbacked fiat currency.

          That is why there has to be repeal of the legal tender laws to allow currency competition in the local economy.
          One of those currencies must be silver and gold coin operating in open competition with the fiat currencies and any other private currencies. gold and silver coin must be monetized to keep the fiat currency honest. Particularly silver coin in day to day transactions.

          • Hi Tony,

            I agree that having a committee trying to match the money supply to the expected increase in products and services won’t be an exact science.

            There are disadvantages to having a fixed money supply though.

            1. If the population or the number of products & services grows then prices & wages have to decrease accordingly. I think this is a disadvantage.

            2. No country can be a net importer or net exporter continuously under a fixed money supply. I know you may think this is fair enough but there are some places that, as a globe, we can support but we couldn’t if we had a strict commodity currency.

            I have other reasons which we’ve discussed before but I guess all I’m looking for is some acknowledgment that a fixed commodity currency would have some disadvantages (as well as advantages) over a debt-free fiat money supply issued in line with product & services.

          • Tony Brogan

            “I have other reasons which we’ve discussed before but I guess all I’m looking for is some acknowledgment that a fixed commodity currency would have some disadvantages (as well as advantages) over a debt-free fiat money supply issued in line with product & services”

            The major problem of a paper fiat currency is who decides.
            how much money is enough.
            that implies nobody can know.

            nobody can know, as any amount is always the correct amount. Every time the amount of money is changed it affect the economy and distorts the signals. Just like to date. Boom, bust, boom bust. finally nothing works any more and there is a financial meltdown.

  18. molly

    Big deals little deals.
    You can start up all the business you like ,every loan/ over draft has to be payed back,why this will not work because you have to get the country in order first.
    Ask yourself why are there soup kitchens,why are business spending the vat and tax instead of handing it over,why are people going hungery ,the list is long and is growing.
    Stack up what’s going out against what’s comming in and even a Cavan man could not survive .
    The results of this hardship is everywhere,we need spenders to make the wheel go round and the spenders have been hammered .
    Most of the spenders are not savers,they are the new survivors and this government just does not get it and they will never get it .

  19. george

    David the Banks got the biggest social welfare cheque ever written by the State. And the policy they know best, is to crucified whole families that cannot meet the repayments for their homeloans, and make no mistake they are pilling up, interest over interest. So what we have at the moment is not a democracy, but total fascism on their part, and most of the political establishment, represented by the main Political Parties, whom the people don’t trust anymore.

    .
    And if anyone , want to check the raw anger that is out there, you only have to listen back to today’s Liveline program with Joe Duffy, where the topic of conversation was Property tax. As a woman said in very graphic terms, this Government (and the previous one says I) is kicking us on the ground.
    Or another woman called Carmel, who was reading from the Fine Gael manifesto from the previous election, where it says that, a recurrent property tax is unjust, unfair, and immoral. And Enda Kenny is on record saying more or less the same few years back.
    Isn’t it deceiving and lying to the people?
    .
    Look how courageous was the new government in Iceland, and how well the people responded to them. Because even if they are going through hardship, they could see a Government fighting for their future, against the Banks and Economic Elites.
    .
    And what do we have here in the Emerald Island instead. A bunch of grossly overpaid Politicians, Public Servants, and Professionals in the State apparatus, looking after themselves, and passing the bill to us; that the best they can do at the moment, is to save their words and their concerns, because the People don’t believe a single word they say. At the end of the day we know they are not fighting for us, but for to keep their privileges, and the Elite privileges in the private and corporate sector.
    .
    WE NEED A NEW GOVERNMENT AS CORAGEOUS AS THE ICELANDIC GOVERNMENT!

    • Grey Fox

      I think it is time for the people of Ireland to flex some muscle, show the Bankers and politicians what the People can do when pushed too far, let’s make an example of one Bank, I vote for Ulster, if everyone just simply stops paying them and removes all funds they will be gone forever from our shores within weeks, maybe then BOI, AIB, PTSB et al will sit up and pay attention to distressed homeowners.
      The problem as I see it is, Irish people do not mind being lied to and swindled as long as their individual asses are not in the meat grinder.
      Still losing the will to live……

      • george

        Grey Fox, now most of the people is in the meat grinder as you said. Even if you have work and a bit of money saved, you know what is coming down the road, you see friends and relatives in horrible situations, people without work or hope, small business being squeezed up to the last drop. At the same time we see our politicians and top civil servants being paid the highest salaries and pensions in Europe, and able to go holidaying several times a year, with the higher per capita rent in the Euro Zone. Who do they think are they kidding?

        In the past I voted against all referendums regarding Europe, not because I was against federalism, but because it was the wrong one, and didn’t put the priorities in social principles, but in mercantilism.

        For the time being Federal Europe is allowing our political elite to screw us, in order to get everything they want. But these fools, cannot even see the end game. Angela Merkel still live in her little apartment in Berlin, instead of using her State accommodation. A consultant in an Irish hospital, according to the Irish Times, gets 210.000 euro, against 100.000 euro in Germany and England. The same goes for much of the Public Sector, and profesionals in the Private Sector. We lost the run of ourselves when the Euro came, and we thought we were more clever than anybody else…remember all about the smart economy, when we cannot produce even a decent native bicycle, because in many ways, all the help the state offers, goes to multinationals. Remember that we were told by many people in the Public Sector, time after time, that if we paid peanuts we were going to get monkeys?
        And what have we got at the end?
        .
        We want deeds not words, we’ve heard all their words and they are empty. We don’t care anymore how sorry they feel, how hard they are working, how concern they are for us. It is easy when you get a fat cheque in the post every month.

        We deserve a New and better Government than this one, or the previous one. We deserve coraugeous patriots like in Iceland, to face the Banks, the Bondholders, the Elites in the Public and Private Sector, and to end up with their privileges. Once they do they part, we’ll pay our taxes no problem, even if it will be hard. But everything is totally unfair, as a man in the Joe Duffy Show said today regarding the property tax: “even if you wanted to implement a worst system than this one, you cannot”… so it seems to me, they are leading us into another trap. And the Council can (will) revise it up or down 30%. Down? are they joking!!!
        .
        So I hope we’ll get a new Governmet soon, otherwise I’ll welcome federal Europe with open arms, no matter how imperfect it is, will be better than this situation.
        And when our political elite finish screwing us, and their term will come to face their masters in Europe, I’ll be celebrating in the Pub.

        • Grey Fox

          I hear you! We are surrounded by Quick Buck Merchants in government, in for the kill and sit back and enjoy, in the name of Probity I pray that some day in the future we will have a government with the backbone to rescind the pensions of the prepetrators and colluder’s, the one’s who sat idly by and let this disaster happen, the politicians, bankers and regulator’s. This is not the EEC I understood we where joining in 1972, it made some sense back then, now it is a death sentence for our country, we must, for the sake of our children break free, and show the way like we have done so many times before.

      • Tony Brogan

        see below Grey Fox
        Take care

  20. whatamess

    rat sandwiches,derivatives,donkey burgers and CDO’s(collateralised debt obligations) Stacey lookin fine in a biker jacket , Inflationary Vortex and more

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxZtfi2pYNo

  21. whatamess

    rat sandwiches,derivatives,donkey burgers and CDO’s(collateralised debt obligations) Stacey lookin fine in a biker jacket , Inflationary Vortex ,debt forgiveness and more

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxZtfi2pYNo

  22. Tony Brogan

    Both customers and credit are related, and the lack of both can be explained by what Keynes called a “liquidity trap” in the 1930s.

    OTHERWISE KNOWN AS DEBT SUFFOCATION

    This is when interest rates don’t work. In fact, Keynes famously described cutting interest rates in a liquidity trap as being as effective as “pushing on a string”.

    THOSE WHO HAVE BORROWED CAN NOT AFFORD TO BORROW ANY MORE REGARDLESS OF THE INTEREST RATE OR TERMS

    In normal times, (THESE ARE NOT NORMAL TIMES) when interest rates fall, those with savings decide that there is no real return on savings, so they spend instead. In addition, while there are many savers who just don’t want to spend, their savings don’t stay in the banks’ vaults, this money is recycled by the banks and lent out to those who want to invest and spend.
    NO THE DEPOSIT IS USED BY THE BANK AND BECOMES THE BANKS MONEY. YOU THE DEPOSITOR HAVE LOANED THE MONEY TO THE BANK AND IT IS NOW THEIRS.
    THIS FORMS THE BASIS FOR THE BANK RESERVE. THEY NOW USE THE FRACTIONAL RESERVE SYSTEM AND LOAN OUT MULTIPLES OF YOUR MONEY TO OTHERS. AT A 10:1 RATIO THE BANKS LOANS OUT NINE TIMES THE AMOUNT OF YOUR DEPOSIT. THAT IS HOW THEY RIP OFF THE PEOPLE AND OWN THE PRIME REAL ESTATE.

    This is a central role of the banks in the economy. When they are working properly, they match savers and investors, keeping money flowing around the economy. For this circular flow of cash to run smoothly, you need people who want to invest, people who want to save and banks that bring both together. But what if one or all of these pieces of this jigsaw is not working?
    THERE IS SO MUCH DEBT AS EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF CURRENCY ISSUED IS A LOAN OR DEBT ON WHICH INTEREST IS CHARGED

    What if the people are carrying too much debt and, even at low rates of interest, they don’t want to borrow?

    OH THEY DO WANT TO. ASK THE WICKLOW STREET LADY. BUT THEY CAN’T. EITHER THEY OWE TOO MUCH ALREADY OR THE BANK IS A ZOMBIE.

    Or what if the people in debt choose to pay back the debt they already owe, irrespective of the rate of interest? Or what if the banks are carrying too much bad debt and they don’t want to lend?

    IF A LOAN IS REPAID IT ESTINGUISES THE IOU AND THE CURRENCY IS REMOVED FROM CIRCULATION

    In this case, it doesn’t matter how low the rate of interest goes, it won’t kick-start lending and investing and the economy gets stuck.

    EXACTLY, DEBT SUFFOCATION. PEOPLE CAN SERVICE NO MORE DEBT OF ANY KIND

    This is what the lady on Wicklow Street was referring to. She couldn’t figure out how there were billions available for the banks and nothing for their customers.

    The core of the problem is that the money is getting stuck in the banks. It is not because the banks don’t want to lend. After all, that’s how banks make money; without lending they have no business.

    It is because there are so many loans still going bad and the banks have to cover these non-performing loans with cash and then don’t have enough cash to lend out.
    THEY DO NOT HAVE THE ORIGINAL DEPOSIT TO BE ABLE TO PAY THAT BACK. ZOMBIE BANKS

    The result is that rejection rates for loan applications are 48.6pc in the Irish data, as opposed to 21.3pc on average in the euro area.

    IRELANDS PER CAPITA DEBT ON THE NATIONAL DEBT IS HIGHER THAN MOST OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.
    DEBT SUFFOCATION

    Not surprisingly, demand for bank credit in Ireland is marginally lower than the euro-area average, with demand for overdrafts and trade credit above average.

    But here is the problem: loan performance data shows that 30pc of Irish SME loans were either in default or were in arrears.
    DEBT SUFFOCATION

    There is significant variation in loan performance across sectors of activity. But as you would expect, hotels, restaurants, construction, wholesale and retail are the large sectors with the highest share of non-performing loans.

    And evidencing the splurge in the boom, the larger the initial loan, the more likely it is to be non-performing in all sectors.

    AS VON MISES SAID. THE BIGGER THE CREDIT BASED BOOM (DEBT BASED CURRENCY ADDS TO THIS PROBLEM)THE BIGGER THE UNAVOIDABLE BUST.

    As the great British economist John Stuart Mill noted, “the crash doesn’t destroy wealth, it merely exposes how much wealth has been destroyed by stupid lending and borrowing in the boom period”.

    AND YET YOU WANT MORE OF THE SAME DAVID. ADDING DEBT ON DEBT NEVER PAID THE BILLS

    For all this to end, bad loans will have to be written off completely or written down to levels where the debtors can pay.

    AND YET YOU WANT TO EXPAND THE CREDIT YET AGAIN WHICH WILL RESULT IN AN EXPONENTIAL GROWTH IN DEBT. ALL ISSUED MONEY FROM CENTRAL BANKS AND COMMERCIAL BANKS ARE ISSUED AS IOU’S. AS THE MONEY SUPPLY EXPANDS SO DOES THE DEBT. THE BIGGER THE MONEY SUPPLY THE BIGGER THE DEBT LOAD , THE MORE INTEREST WE ALL PAY.
    WE HAVE A DEBT BASED MONETARY SYSTEM THAT HAS REACHED SUFFOCATION POINT.

    It will have to be done quickly because the longer we prevaricate, the more the woman on Wicklow Street will wait for new credit.
    THE FASTER THIS IS DONE THE SOONER THE LADY WILL BE IN DEBT AGAIN.

    Without new credit, there are no new customers and we bounce along the bottom.
    SO IN ORDER TO SAVE US ALL WE ISSUE MORE DEBT BASED CURRENCY. ON THE ONE HAND YOU WANT DEBT RELIEF AND ON THE OTHER MORE DEBT. YOU ARE CONFLICTED AND CONFUSED DAVID.

    In order to cleanse the balance sheet quickly, the banks need sufficient capital to absorb these losses on bad debts.

    THIS CAPITAL IF NOT AVAILABLE FROM SAVERS (ARE THERE ANY LEFT) AND PROFITABLE ENTERPRISES MUST BE BORROWED FROM THE CENTRAL BANK AT INTEREST.

    The banks were recapitalised last year to make sure they had enough capital to get on with the job.

    SO THEY RECEIVED BUNDLES OF CASH FROM THE CENTRAL BANK AND EVERY BIT ADDED TO THE NATIONAL DEBT AS A LOAN

    Let’s hope they got their sums right and, as they say themselves, past performance is not indicative of future results.
    IF WISHES WERE HORSES BEGGERS WOULD RIDE.
    FUTURE RESULTS ARE GUARANTEED TO BE THE SAME AS IN THE PAST. EVERY SINGLE UNIT OF CURRENCY ISSUED IS A DEBT, REPAYABLE AND INTEREST BEARING. THERE IS NO CURRENCY ISSUED AT THE TIME OF THE LOAN TO PAY THE INTEREST. AS THE INTEREST IS DUE AND MUST BE PAID MORE CURRENCY MUST BE PRODUCED TO COVER IT. THAT IN TURN IS A DEBT TO BE REPAID AT INTEREST.
    AS PRINCIPAL OF THE LOANS ARE REPAID THE IOU IS EXTINGUISHED AND THAT CURRENCY DESTROYED SO AS TIME GOES BY THE INTEREST IN THE SYSTEM INCREASES TO A LARGER PROPORTION OF THE CURRENCY IN CIRCULATION.
    IN SHORT NEVER CAN THE DEBT BE PAID OFF OR THE MONEY GOES OUT OF CIRCULATION AND THE ECCNOMY IS DESTROYED AND REDUCED TO DIRECT BARTER.
    WE HAVE A DEBT TRAP OF A MONETARY SYSTEM AND IT MUST BE REMOVED TO SAVE THE PEOPLE FROM PERPETUAL INDEBTEDNESS.
    DAVID WANTS TO PRINT MORE OF THIS CURRENCY TO STIMULATE THE ECONOMY. ALL IT WILL DO IS SPEED THE DEMISE.
    AT STAKE HERE IS THE BASIS OF WERTERN CIVILIZATION AND THAT IS NO EXAGERATION.

    WHAT TO DO?
    HOW ABOUT ISSUE FUNDS DEBT FREE FROM TREASURY AND REPLACE ALL UNITS ONE FOR ONE OF DEBT BASED CENTRAL BANK CURRENCY WITH AN ASSET BASED CURRENCY, TREASURY NOTES.
    HOW ABOUT CLOSING THE CENTRAL BANK. IT IS A PARASITE ON THE PEOPLE
    HOW ABOUT REVOKING THE ODIOUS DEBT AND REMOVING IT FROM THE BOOKS (GOOGLE ODIOUS DEBT)
    HOW ABOUT REDEAMING ALL EXISTING GOVERNENT DEBT WITH DEBT FREE TREASURY MONEY.
    HOW ABOUT RECALLING THE LOANS GIVEN TO THE BANKS AND SAYING THE PEOPLE WANT THEIR MONEY BACK. IT WAS A SHORT TERM TEMPORARY LOAN WAS IT NOT. NOMATTER, RECALL IT ANYWAY.
    HOW ABOUT FORECLOSING ON THE BANKS IF THEY DO NOT PAY IN 60 DAYS. (SOURCE FOR THE GOOSE IS SOURCE FOR THE GANDER)
    HOW ABOUT SELLING THE ASSETS OF ALL THE ZOMBIE BANKS ON THE OPEN MARKET AT MARKET PRICES
    HOW ABOUT SELLING THE OTHER ASSETS OF THE BANKS AS WELL. THE MORTGAGE PORTFOLIO AND THE LOANS, AT MARKET VALUE
    HOW ABOUT GIVING ALL THE DEBTORS A ONE TIME RIGHT OF FIRST REFUSAL TO BE EXERCISED WITHIN 60 DAYS TO BUY BACK THEIR DEBTS. (HERE IS YOUR DEBT RELIEF DAVID!)

    THIS WILL REMOVE MOST OF THE DEBT FROM THE SYSTEM AND ALLOW REDUCTION OR REMOVAL OF INCOME TAXES IN ALL FORMS AND GIVE AN IMMEDIATE BOOST TO THE ECONOMY WHERE IT IS NEEDED. NO CREDT REQIRED.

    WELL WHAT ABOUT IT?

    ——————————————————————————–

    • Tony Brogan

      ESTINGUISES=EXTINGUISHES

    • george

      Tony:

      David always was the first comentator I know, asking for some sort of debt forgiveness for the People, and at one stage I think even going back to our own currency. But you literally take his comment about “credit for the small people” as if he is suggesting some sort of printing more money to make a bigger mess. But credit can be interpreted in many ways, and not only in the way you have interpreted it. You extract only one part from the whole context, and you change the meaning of it considerably.
      .
      Apart from it, there is a lot of merit in what you suggest.

      • Tony Brogan

        Hello George
        i had to read the lead article for a 5th time to see what I had missed.
        The is no doubt that the whole essay is based on financing and a lack of credit. Credit in this context
        means what one can borrow. How much credit do to have at the bank. Opposite from debit.When you take money out of the bank it is recorded as a credit on your statement. When you deposit to your account it is an asset and recorded as a debit.
        so credit refers to withdrawing your own money but also as in this context in withdrawing the money as loaned to you by a bank.

        So I hope you will now credit me with being correct originally.
        to provide credit the bank creats new money out of thin air. Before the loan the money did not exist. after the loan it appears as an entry on the ledger sheet as a debit to the customers bank account, and the customer pays interest on this alladin money.

        So, it is quite correct to say that the “printing press ” must roll to create that loan and it is another debt as it comes into existance.
        That is the way our money system works.

        “it wasn’t so much that small companies hadn’t enough CREDIT, they hadn’t enough customers as well.

        Emphasis mine

        I also agree David called for debt relief. I am merely pointing out a method available to do so that does not cost anything other than that which is already lost.

        • george

          Tony I think you and David in many parts are singing from the same hymn sheet.
          I told you in my first respond, that I think there is a lot of merit in what you say, and I give you all the credit for it. I’ll keep trying to put together all the pieces of your jigsaw!
          .
          In the other hand, I think that there has to be a political will to achieve radical changes, and better standards for the wellbeing of society. And in the Irish case there isn’t much from this Government or the previous one, to be optimistic about.
          .
          They are mainly concern in keeping the status quo and their privileges, and to do as little as possible, and only things that have a cosmetic effect, because they don’t have the guts as the Icelandic Government had, of confronting the Banks and the bondholders, and to put the interest of the whole society before theirs and their cronies in the public and private sector. They hide behind the Constitution and very little of significance is done for people in debt, and for the thousands in line ready to succumb to an unbearable situation . So our only hope are new elections, with the commitment from whoever gets elected, that they are ready to do the things, that this Government (and the previous one), are not and by now we know, they will never do.
          .
          As a man said in the Joe Duffy’s Show. Even if you wanted to device a worst system to implement property tax you couldn’t. And obviously most of the people think the same, regarding the way they managed the negotiations with the Banks and the Bondholders.
          Cheers!

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi George

            No doubt nothing will change until there is the political will. There will be no political will until the people demand it. That requires an educated population.
            It will happen one person at a time.

            We need the final bubble. A bubble of information. Each person educated by an other doubles the knowledge base. As this knowledge progresses it is slow going until the exponential phase of the graph is reached.

            We keep doubling the knowledge base from 100th of a percent of population to 2/100th of a percent. We then reach 1% or 2% of the population after a long haul. Now a double takes us to 4% to 8%.
            a double of 25% = 50% and we are in the exponential phase of the graph. The last double is 50-100% and then the politicians are proclaiming a new policy for the people. Follow me I am your leader.

            We have reached the formative stage of the knowledge graph. We can see the steady rise week after week. 100% could be reached in weeks or months. Change when it occurs will be massive and rapid and sudden.

    • whatamess

      superb

      i can’t see the problem

      • whatamess

        WELL WHAT ABOUT IT?

        superb Tony

        i can’t see the problem

        • bonbon

          The problem is Reconstruction of a seriously damaged economy after 40 years of bubbles , looting, hyperinflation.

          And the irony is that is really the only important point, our survival. Monetarists are totally silent on this. The Triple Curve brings the otherwise invisible problem to the table.

          • whatamess

            complete write down …burn the bondholders …and yea Reconstruction ,but i’m not yet sure the appropriate and safest modus operandi of achieving our AGREED goals( at this stage,maybe we need to throw caution to the wind re safety ?..tick tock)

            event horizon is fast approaching

            we gotta think MACRO

            your points 9) thro’ 12) on this thread said it all really

            but points 1) thro’ 7) hugely important too !

            i’m still getting my mind fully around the triple curve and the GS Act and it’s 4 provisions,but that’s taken alota water from this site alone when proponents of same don’t engage to clarify succinctly,as one easily can..if one chooses ;)?

            feicfimid

          • whatamess

            i’m not poking fun at Reconstruction ,but the Death Star ( of “Star Wars” fame ) was in a tongue and cheek manner ,proposed recently to be a full scale build,for what possible reason i don’t know .The stretch goal would be to raise the $850 quadrillion (£543 quadrillion) that would be required for actual construction. chuckle chuckle

            the death star or millenium falcon won’t happen of course, but HUGE project(s) would solve alota the problems…projects in whatever guise financed with $ from burning bondholders..

            are we that evolved to make that move ?

            if a meteor was gonna hit us and OBLITERATE us ,that’d concentrate the mind wonderfully and maybe then with a global common agreed strategy we ‘could’ (would have to ) build a death star or whatever ,to neutralise this life threatening meteor …

            The threat of being OBLITERATED is ever present without any life threatening meteor ….

            again,chuckle chuckle

          • bonbon

            No chuckling today in Chalyabinsk, which got hit with 300 kilotons of exploding meteor with no warning whatsoever. Russia has proposed repeatedly SDE, Strategic Defense of the Earth, now you know why.

  23. Again I have a number of issues with this article.

    First ”While there are many savers who just don’t want to spend, their savings don’t stay in the banks’ vaults, this money is recycled by the banks and lent out to those who want to invest and spend.” This is a completely false statement. It would only apply if banks processed every loan in cash form. When banks process cashless loans they create the money they lend.

    Second, ”This is a central role of the banks in the economy. When they are working properly, they match savers and investors, keeping money flowing around the economy. For this circular flow of cash to run smoothly, you need people who want to invest, people who want to save and banks that bring both together.” Again, banks create the money they lend and it has nothing to do with how many savers a bank has.

    Third, ”The core of the problem is that the money is getting stuck in the banks.” However when banks process loan repayments they ‘delete’ the money and it’s not being hoarded or getting ‘stuck’ – It just doesn’t exist anymore.

    One statement that is right is ”It is not because the banks don’t want to lend. After all, that’s how banks make money”. Bank do indeed ‘make’ money through loans.

    To find out how banks ‘make’ money please review our paper ‘How Money is Created and Destroyed’ at:
    http://sensiblemoney.ie/data/documents/How-Money-Is-Created-And-Destroyed.pdf

    • bonbon

      There is an eerie lack of concern for the question posed by that person in the street. DMcW is correct to at least try to explain.

      At this point no one wants a lecture on how monetary tokens are “created or destroyed”. The economy must get credit, after of course the derivative hangover is voided, which you apparently never mention.

      • Tony Brogan

        Presumeably you are the No One you refer to.

        • bonbon

          I think the person in the street demands an answer not technicalities. The answer is available, not very technical, highly political, and doable.

          • Tony Brogan

            Well why don’t you explain the triple curve in layman’s terms and lead by example?

          • bonbon

            Actually PIMCO’s Gross below explains very well, from the bond-holder point of view. See the Supernova posting below.

            The point again, is Glass-Steagall, as introduced by FDR in 1933 is a door-opener to reconstruction which is THE issue avoided by monetarist of all stripes. In fact this avoidance defines “monetarist”. The Triple Curve shows the incredible “schizoid” economy caused by monetarism.

            Monetarism is a disease, most will deny infection.

          • Tony Brogan

            Can’t explain it yourself eh?

    • joe hack

      Education is key

      Maybe David needs some or at least he needs to change the way he uses his analogies he is clearly misleading the public this shameful

      Facts are key

    • bonbon

      I wonder how the “sensible money” scheme compares to the Greenback Pound here proposed :

      The Case For A “Greenback” Pound
      Financial System Continues Collapse – Opportunity for Optimism

      Lincoln’s words :
      “The government should create issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers … The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government’s greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the long-felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest, discounts and exchanges. The financing of all public enterprises, the maintenance of stable government and ordered progress, and the conduct of the Treasury will become matters of practical administration. The people can and will be furnished with a currency as safe as their own government. Money will cease to be the master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to the money power.” (Senate document 23, Page 91. 1865)

      Rothschild’s brutal reply from The Times of London in 1865:

      “If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedence in the history of the civilised governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed, or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe.”

      On Good Friday, April 14th 1865, a gunman ended the presidency of Abraham Lincoln and his Greenback legacy, leading to the formation of the privately run Federal Reserve in 1913. Since then, America’s unlawful debt has risen to over 15 trillion dollars.

  24. Tony Brogan

    US application but fundemental principles apply to Ireland or indeed any country

    MONETARY FREEDOM

    The problem is not that gold and silver coin are not “legal tender”–they are already. Problem is that the people, courts and government treat them as if they weren’t legal tender, as if only fiat Federal Reserve notes (green paper bills and bank credit) were money.

    From the beginning the Federal Reserve’s strategy has been to marginalize, remove, tax, and criminalize gold and silver money.

    The courts have an instinctive systemic bias to follow that strategy. I’ve seen it in person over a 15 year struggle in local, state, and federal courts. It sent me to jail in the teeth of the law. The courts ignore plain law in favour of marginalizing, removing, taxing, and criminalizing gold and silver.

    THE TAPEWORM ECONOMY

    We live in a tapeworm economy. The monetary system enables those who control the government-sanctioned money creation franchise to feed on all the rest of us–not an accident, but the nature of the system.

    The Federal Reserve Act (1912) gives to the Federal Reserve system power to do what is otherwise illegal: print its own private money (“Federal Reserve notes”) and force the rest of us to receive it as money. In the interest of a banking cartel the government has replaced public money (gold and silver coin) with private money (bank credit) to benefit no one but the banks.

    Clearly, this means that eventually all the property and all the power in the country will wind up in hands of the money-printers. The power to print money is the beating heart of tyranny, the source of all its power. Abolishing the Federal Reserve and fiat money is the strategic key, the only strategic key, to restoring liberty, prosperity, government by law, and justice. Restoring hard money restores everything.

    Our strategy must reverse and overthrow the Fed’s strategy. They have employed Gresham’s Law, using bad money to drive out good money.

    But most people don’t understand that Gresham’s Law works both ways. It only works to drive good money out of circulation when driven by force, by legal tender laws. If good money is available and not forbidden by law, Gresham’s Law reverses: good money drives bad money out of circulation. We must enlist that on our side.

    RESTORE GOLD AND SILVER TO CIRCULATION

    The US Constitution, Article I, Section 10 says: “No state shall make any Thing but Gold and Silver Coin a tender in payment of debt.” This reserves to states the power to “declare a tender” but restricts that power to “gold and silver coin.” The Federal Government has already made gold and silver coin a tender (Coinage Acts of 1792, 1832, 1873, 1985, 1986, etc. etc.), but they don’t circulate. Fiat Federal Reserve money (notes and bank credit) is accepted by public and government to the exclusion of gold and silver. Therefore we must remove all those barriers.

    1. Remove government barriers to circulation.
    â– Remove/forbid/exempt gold and silver from sales tax, both coin and bullion. Charging sales tax on exchanges of gold and silver coin not only obstructs their circulation, it is also illegal. Did you every pay sales tax when a bank teller gave you two $10 bills for a $20 bill? Of course not. Under the common law, the constitution, statutory law, and precedent, gold and silver coin is “money” while the green paper is a “note,” a “bank note,” a promise to pay money and not itself money. But if we can’t make that leap all at once, then we need to follow the Texas and California examples, where any non-jewellery gold and silver purchase over $1,000 is automatically exempted from sales tax.
    â– No capital gains tax on gold/silver transactions. Every exchange of gold/silver for fiat must be defined as a “like kind transaction at full equivalency on date of exchange.”
    â– Eventually, Tennessee government must re-denominate all fines, taxes, and dues in gold and silver, to the exclusion of fiat money.

    2. Remove commercial barriers to circulation.
    â– It is hard to use silver and gold. People don’t use gold and silver because they are too inconvenient. They won’t accept them because they don’t know what they’re worth. That’s cured privately and easily by Internet conversion applications like silverandgoldaremoney.com. That’s cured publicly by state government publishing exchange rates daily.
    â– It’s easy to use paper. Every merchant accepts checks, credit cards, debit cards.Electronic payment systems for silver and gold are rare or unknown, but already available and successful, e.g., goldmoney.com.
    â– But Article I, Section 10 specifies the only tender as gold and silver “coin.” The law must integrate that with electronic systems as an alternative. 100% reserve gold and silver banks must be “legalized” by statute or court judgment. In fact, they already are, but not treated that way by courts.

    3. No monometallism, no fixed exchange rates or fixed ratios.

    Whatever standard is enacted, it must include both metals, but without any fixed exchange rate between the two. Against those who object to that, answer that we already have floating exchange rates among all the fiat currencies of the world. Deal with it: the world economy already does. Any monetary system with only gold or only silver is only fiat money in disguise. Honesty and integrity can only be maintained when the value of each metal is defined in terms of the other, not in terms of some fiat currency unit like “dollars.”

    4. Create the legal environment, then circulate.

    Once we have created the legal environment removing the strictures against gold and silver (passed laws), then the greater hurdle appears: get people to use them daily. Once they begin using them, silver and gold will drive out fiat within two years. How can I be so sure?
    â–  History shows that. Cf. 1792 when silver and gold coin replaced paper money.
    â–  Silver and gold do not constantly lose value.
    â–  Silver and gold actually gain value, so saving makes sense. Savers build capital for economic expansion by equity financing, so debt is not necessary.
    â–  For holders of silver and gold, everything you buy constantly becoming cheaper. Day by day your money buys more.

    5. Once that local cash circulation begins, local businesses will spring up to serve it.

    Cobbler, tailor, hardware store and others will push out corporate franchises that drain cash away. Local production produces local demand that produces local jobs: we don’t have to bring in jobs and money from outside.

    6. Gresham’s Law will keep that silver and gold money in the community.

    All this happens without any laws, subsidies, government payments, or fractional reserve banks. No government interference, and heaven help us! No government “favours.” It will happen spontaneously, by human desire for prosperity, if we can only create the necessary conditions.

    THE BOTTOM LINE

    We must reclaim and restore not only one but three freedoms government has stolen: Economic Freedom, Food Freedom, and Monetary Freedom.
    â– Restore Monetary Freedom. Place silver and gold money on an equal footing with fiat money and offer the people “freedom of choice in money”, and
    â– Restore Economic Freedom by removing regulations that stifle economic freedom and initiative, and
    â– Restoring Food Freedom.

    Restoring one without restoring all will not only fail, but also leave us worse off that we are now.

    Someone will tell me this is impossible. Things have gone too far. We have to wait until it all collapses of its own weight before we can do anything. We can’t change anything. It’s hopeless.

    I answer these croakers with the words of Jonathan, son of Saul. When the Philistines oppressed all Israel as we are oppressed this day, Jonathan went by himself to the Philistine army, up on the hill. He went by himself, only Jonathan and his armour bearer, a man and a mere boy against the Philistine’s whole host.

    Jonathan came to the foot of the hill, and said to his armour bearer, “Come, and let us go over unto the garrison of these uncircumcised: it may be that the Lord will work for us: for the Lord is not restrained to save by many or by few.”

    So they climbed up, and they fought, and they won. They killed 20 Philistines within a half acre, and the whole army panicked and fled and Israel chased them out of the country.

    That one man’s resolve to fight or die but to live free marked the beginning of his whole country’s liberation.

    Is it impossible to restore our freedom, to drive out the Philistines who rule over us? I don’t know. I have looked down their gun barrels, been ridiculed in their courts, and been thrown in their jails, so I of all people offer no guarantees and make no promises.

    But I remember also that for all their power, all their money, all their agents, by the Grace of God I still survive and thrive, and so does the truth and the law. I only know that God is not restrained to save by many or by few, and I know it is time, our time to go up, and see if God will work for us.

    We have no other hope.

    Originally published June 2011
    Franklin Saunders–the money changer

    • george

      Tony a question. What do you mean by food freedom?

      • george

        Well not you but Saunders!

      • Tony Brogan

        http://the-moneychanger.com/articles/restoring_freedom

        THE FOUNDATION IS FOOD FREEDOM

        And the foundation for those local economies is local agriculture and food freedom. It starts there.

        You don’t need any outside jobs or borrowed money because right this instant you are standing right now, every town, every county, every city, on acres of diamonds.

        Yes. Every man, woman, and child in every home in Tennessee spends $1,800 every year on food and drink. In Jackson alone with 65,211 people, that amounts to $117 million spent on food every year. Can you build a local economy on a $117 million cash flow?

        No. Why not? Because the state of Tennessee won’t let you.
        â–  Because farmers are robbed of their common law right to make sales at the farm gate.
        â–  Because the State and farmers’ markets require farmers get a license before they allow them to sell their goods.
        â–  Because the State department of agriculture forbids farmers to grow and process and sell chickens or raw milk or hams or bacon or jam.
        â– Because regulation forbids them from competing.

        Never forget this. Set aside all the good intentions, rationalizations, and justifications about health and safety and evil producers who will poison their customers unless government regulates them. That’s all a cover-up.

        The real purpose of all regulation is to stifle competition.
        The real purpose of all regulation is to stifle competition.
        The real purpose of all regulation is to stifle competition.

        Think about it. The federal Food and Drug Administration (FDA) was founded in 1906 in a propaganda firestorm about food additives. Government must regulate, or we will all be poisoned!

        How many additives in use in 1906 has the FDA since banned? A hundred? Fifty? Twenty? Twelve?

        Not one. Not a one. Oh, they’ve banned others since then, but not one in use in 1906.

        Ask yourself what chance you have of getting e. coli poisoning from hamburger when all the hamburger in the country is processed by six meatpackers. Would you take your chances with those six, or with you local butcher and farmer whom you know and trust?

        Never forget: within twenty nano-seconds of regulations passing, the regulated always capture the regulators. So regulators and regulation always work for the big corporations with political pull, and their only goal is to stifle competition. Not only in Food Freedom we must roll back regulation, but in every business, undertaking, craft, profession, or job, so that we can build healthy, prosperous, just local economies taking care of each others’ needs, instead of buying rotten milk from California and tainted hamburger from Chicago. Local agriculture merely forms the backbone of a local economy. Once it is established, it generates an income that revives trade throughout the rest of the local economy.

        So here is our first strategic goal: relentlessly roll back regulations. Year after year we must hammer on the legislature, returning to demand economic freedom for all, and that means relentlessly rolling back regulation. Restore economic freedom, no matter how long it takes.

        FOOD FREEDOM AND FULL FARM GATE SALES

        Henry Kissinger is supposed to have said, “Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control the people.”

        Food freedom guarantees the only and ultimate human right: the right to life. If you aren’t free to eat, you can’t live. If government controls all the food and it must travel from a continent away, then government controls your life, and ultimately can shut you off whenever they want. Food freedom is the ultimate freedom, and they have stolen it from us.

        What is our goal and strategy? Full farm-gate sales freedom.

        Restoring the farmer’s freedom to sell anything grown or processed on his own farm at his own risk and the consumer’s own risk. Scare you? Not me. I’ll take my risks with my local farmer whom I know over gigantic corporations whom I don’t know, and whose public relations spin-doctors thinks of e. coli outbreaks in terms of numbers dead rather than men, women, and children personally known.

        Farm gate sales must include the farmer’s right to take part freely and without license, permit, or by your leave in any and all Tennessee farmers’ markets and to sell there anything produced on their own farms exactly as if they were selling it at their own farm gate and with the same right not to be subjected to sales tax, as the law already provides.

        Food freedom includes freedom to eat, drink, or consume any food product without government interference or regulation, including most of all raw milk, butchered or cured meats, and prepared foods such as canned goods, jams, cakes, or bread.

  25. Tony Brogan

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-09/feds-bailout-europe-continues-record-237-billion-injected-foreign-banks-past-month

    $237 billion of money from FedReserve to European bank reserves last month, and still the lady on Wicklow street cant get credit.

    Such influx causing Euro to rise strongly and Crush German and French exports

  26. bonbon

    Here is a much better proposal for credit creation. Very interesting that this idea of Abraham Lincoln appears in the UK.

    UK Column: Glass Steagall or Collapse – Go to a “Greenback Pound”

    The June 2012 issue of the UK Column, published periodically in the UK, leads with a report from co-editor Mike Robinson titled: Financial System Continues Collapse – Opportunity for Optimism. After describing the hopelessness of the bailout process in Europe, and ridiculing the propsal of Bank of England head Mervyn King, and Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne’s insane call for “bolder action” in bailouts, Robinson says that the collapse of the real economy since the time of Maggie Thatcher can only be reversed with Glass-Steagall and “massive reinvestment in basic economic infrastructure.” He adds: “This should be seen as an opportunity rather than a disaster,” by putting “several million” people to work in productive jobs.”

    As to the complaint that “there is no money,” Robinson references the American system of credit generation, calling for a “system of national credit, a Greenback pound.”

    The “Electric Ring Fencing” proposed will lead to Glass-Steagall very quickly. That is the first step to a Greenback Pound.

    • Tony Brogan

      LaRouche propaganda machine on full blast

    • bonbon

      Let me remind you of the quote from the Times, which Justin Walker included in his article, “The Case For A ‘Greenback’ Pound”, published in the last issue of this newspaper (UK Column) :

      If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedence in the history of the civilised governments of the world.

      That “mischievous financial policy” is a system of national credit, a “Greenback” Pound.

      • bonbon

        To complete the extract from the Times of London 1865 :

        It will become prosperous beyond precedence in the history of the civilised governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed, or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe.

        On Good Friday, April 14th 1865, a lone gunman ended the presidency of Abraham Lincoln. Sadly, his Greenback legacy died with him as the private bankers managed to ‘persuade’ Congress to revoke this successful initiative, a policy which eventually led to the formation of the privately run Federal Reserve in 1913.

        The Specie Resumption Act caused the Long Depression.

      • Tony Brogan

        I like that middle paragraph.

        Lincoln had no truck with central banking but used treasury money.

        This is explicitly not Hamiltonian Rothschild banking

        • bonbon

          Put aside pre-conceived notions for a minute. Rothschild’s warning is pretty stark stuff. He knew what Hamiltonian banking, “that mischievous financial policy” meant for the Empire. He called for the US to be destroyed because it threatened the very basis of the British Empire.

          Lincolns Greenback is one example of Hamilton’s Credit Clause being put into effect. Hamilton knew precisely what he was doing, knew exactly the methods of Empire.

          What precision!

          Conflating every banker is ruining your perspective, if I may say so.

          • Tony Brogan

            Don’t give me that deceptive bull shit. Rothschild’s backed Hamilton. Hamilton was a Rothschild.

            Show me the evidence this was not so?

            You lie and deliberately deceive. You are not trustworthy. You Manipulate. You are a thief of the truth, and twist and distort it.

          • bonbon

            Hayek lied, cleverly. He was in fact a Rothschild agent, following the recommendation of that famous letter to the London Times in 1865. Whether deliberate or not it is inexcusable to avoid this.

            Austrian Schooler’s are now fully exposed for public comment, and ridicule. How can it be some are fooled all of the time?

            The evidence on Hayek et al is now readily available. There is still time to come to terms with this treachery.

    • bonbon

      The Case For A “Greenback” Pound

      There is one question which will have system-serving politicians and economists running for cover: why can’t the British government through its Treasury issue interest free money based upon the common wealth and integrity of this country – worth trillions?

      Very interesting article indeed from our neighbor.

      • Tony Brogan

        Well now bon bon have you abandoned your central bank proposal as sponsored by Rothschild.

        It appears from the above that you suggest that treasury issue funds and interest free and not an iou?
        Is that your position?

        You will be aware that although this is an improvement from the issued central bank usurious it is not the full solution. such moneyis subject to being inflated and as such we would end up again with a disrupted economy.

        it is prudent to monetisedsilver coin and gold coin to and allow to circulate in parallel to the fiat treasury currency.
        It is advisable to repeal the legal tender laws to allow the people to use any currency theywish .

        Gold and silver being a protection from inflation will keep the treasury money honest.

      • Tony Brogan

        “There is absolutely nothing to prevent the British Government, or indeed any sovereign nation, from issuing its own interest free paper money to meet the essential needs of its people. And best of all, a successful historical precedent is there for all to see. ”

        Pretty close to what I may have written myself

        • bonbon

          That is Hamilton’s Credit Clause, explicit in the US Constitution.

          Mischievous is’nt it`?

          • Tony Brogan

            Except it was not issued by Treasury without debt.
            It was Issued by a new central bank whose major share holders were Rothschilds. Hamilton’s Bank was a private entity thatissued debt based money and loaned money at interest.No different to and a precursor to the Federal Reserve.

            Andrew Jackson removed all government deposits from that bank which removed enough reserves that the bank failed causing mega losses for the Rothschilds.
            The Rothschilds sought revenge and then fostered and financed the war of 1812 to attack the US. There was also an assasination attempt on Jackson.

            You advocate dangerous policy for the people lord bon bon Rothschild. You are the mischievious one.

          • bonbon

            The Myth Of Andrew Jackson Is Hereby Destroyed
            For people today, they must realize that the elites adore Andrew Jackson. These very same elites have destroyed the economy. Time for an indictment of this traitor. The link documents exactly how and why this horrible character did what he did.

          • bonbon

            The End of the Andrew Jackson Disease

            Bill Roberts, former candidate for Congress in Michigan, and member of the LaRouche Policy Committee.

          • Tony Brogan

            concocted by mad men

          • bonbon

            Jackson, adored by, well those who gave us the mess.

  27. 5Fingers

    The level of discontent is rising. What will be straw that will break the camel’s back? Will it be…

    1) Property Tax demands (one of the most regressive and unfair of its kind in Europe)
    2) Water Charges
    3) Another food scandal which disables 20% of the processing industry
    4) Another fuel hike
    5) A food price increase brought on by very poor weather conditions across Europe
    6) Health Cuts
    7) Des Bishop’s “Under the Influence” actually having an effect on alcohol usage

    • bonbon

      9)Bio-fuels causing world-wide food price starvation
      10)Green “economics” destroying the basis for progress
      11)Co2 mania and lies bringing on a world tax
      12)Obama’s “permanent war” program
      13)Confrontation with Russia – Sweden wants to “defend” Gotland with Patriot Missiles also now in Turkey.

      The level of action to confront this is increasing. War today means thermonuclear, over in 60 minutes. That alone shows things have changed.

  28. 5Fingers

    Has our democracy been split in two between what people find meaningful or meaningless in news about investment and progress. It certainly is the case in Ireland and I suspect most democracies. When we have a situation when most people cannot identify anything positive with what is going on, it is not good at all. It means the unwritten social contract by which we get along with one another is eroding.

    The leadership “safe pair of hands” or conservative approach being adopted today everywhere is a result of the mounting cronyism (and nepotism) naturally brought on by multi-generational stability made possible by the ongoing (and so far well kept) promise that tomorrow will be better no matter what – so, no need to rock the boat. The contented majority are holding it together. But for how much longer?

    Autopilot has been left on so long that no one knows how to steer anymore.

  29. Prediction Comes True

    10 Feb, 2013 6.20pm….it was predicted on this site

    http://news.sky.com/story/1052514/meteorite-shower-hits-russia-injuring-524

    What was said is :

    ’2012DA14

    Astroid will ‘skim’ past the Earth on the 14th Feb,2013…….this is the date of maximum moon wobble impact .

    Will it hit us like Noonans Deliverance in past few days ?

    Will it hit a satellite and will we have the internet as we do have now on this site ?

    Interesting Times Ahead!!’

    • Adam Byrne

      You nailed it this time John!

    • bonbon

      With about 60 meter diameter, moving at 12 kilometer per sec, mass about 190,000 metric tons, it would deliver around 3.6 megatons of explosive power, about the same as the Tungusta even of 1908 in Siberia or a single thermonuclear weapon. It will pass at 27,000 km, inside the TV satellite limit, and was only discovered a year ago. So no warning. NASA estimates 1 million of these nearby.
      Latest news here :
      http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/

    • 5Fingers

      Fcek the Asteroid. I nearly wish the thing landed on me just now…I just accidentially destroyed 2 months of work and have to hope the backups are intact. Arrrgh!!

    • To be honest it is the first and only public forecast ever made and to have come true.Another achievment on the great site .

      • Adam Byrne

        A stopped clock is correct twice a day John.

        • Hindsight was blind before Foresight gave it a new light .

          Before the last full moon I stated the importance of Fire and Air and that would reveal themselves .Shortly afterwards ‘ a hellicopter fell from the sky on fire right in the center of London’. The follow up immediately afterwards with the Moon Wobble and maximum impact date confirmed the breakaway part of the named Meteorite crash to the ground as fire fell from the sky ( air ) on the exact maximum impact date .

          Galbraith will be very happy to propose Astrology to be inclusive with Economics for those serious enough who want to predict and make better decisions.

          • History records that Great Leaders made great decisions and took their strength from outer body forces .Leadership is not represented today as it once was .Why ?

            I believe that fear to connect with outside energy ( Spirit of Things ) is embeded in the mindset of those we elect and the electorate are to blame .We need to change that . The real experience of Gaelic is not in classroom talk but in the hidden codes of the language that predominate its uses and expressions from an ancient time.

            Our city insularity in recent peaceful times has poisoned the real art of discourse among ourselves and eroded our connectivity .

            Its no wonder The Troika are in situ our new Emperors and our representatives are puppets on a silver string .

          • Adam Byrne

            Just ribbing you John. You are free to believe what you want of course. I certainly have no way of disproving it. Astrology is just not my thing. I’ll watch your future predictions with curiosity though. Have a good weekend.

          • ‘A stopped clock is correct twice a day’. -

            It is a good answer I agree .A response is required nevertheless to the stopped clock .

            ‘Neither a Tortoise or a Hare you are but a feckless stone lying around .What needs you are what hope there is as time passes and the life there is .

          • My next reading of the cosmic energy since period before last full moon and next Monday 26th Feb is HONOHAN .

            Lets say . ‘ he will jump’.

  30. redriversix

    ECB threatens to renege on promissory note deal
    February 15, 2013 by namawinelake

    When examining the promissory note deal on here, the conclusion is that it does amount to monetary financing — allowing a State to create one fifth of its annual economic output in new money and charging a mere 0.75% per annum for such money possibly for 15 years, in the view on here, is “monetary financing”. In Ireland’s case we have been allowed issue €25bn of bonds, equivalent to 1/5th of our annual Gross National Product of €127bn, and the plan published last week anticipates the ECB providing cash to us against these bonds for 15 years.

    When analyzing the deal on here, there was high praise for Irish negotiators in convincing the ECB to accept such a deal. But the risk of other EuroZone countries seeking a similar deal was raised, and the triumph of last June’s EU summit when the communiqué afterwards said “similar cases will be treated equally” was regarded not as an asset to Ireland, but something that could come back to bite us on the bum. So what happens now if Cyprus demands 0.75% loans from the ECB to bail out its banks?

    And this morning, there are reports emerging of the ECB threatening to renege on the deal, after the Germans said the Irish deal came “dangerously close” to monetary financing. The ECB president Mario Draghi is reported to have said in Moscow this morning, that, in relation to the deal, the ECV “has to make sure that its actions are in conformity with its rules and statutes”

    Perhaps we should be grateful at the deal last week which saw €25bn of promissory notes, which were almost definitely illegal in the context of ECB rules, and may well be unlawful in Ireland — something we may find out as David Hall’s challenge progresses through the courts — converted into sovereign debt. The view on here is that we should not be at all grateful, because even though the overall debt shouldered to bail out the banks has been reduced in net present value terms, we are still shouldering debt which threatens to seriously undermine our society.

    How might the ECB renege on the deal? It might require the term in which the Central Bank of Ireland can hold our bonds, to be cut from 15 years to a much shorter term, perhaps even months.

    I pray hard that the E.C.B THROW THIS DEAL OUT AND SEND THIS GOVERNMENT TO HELL…! too dramatic ? “like I give a flying F….

    Oh happy days…

    • joe hack

      I have been saying this for the last while now but not one Irish journalist that i am aware of has raised this very important issue.

      i guess they are along with others hoping it will slip under the radar(maybe i suspect even at ECB level but if the finger pointing starts this may change).

      A deal is an agreement, this was a unilateral act of a desperate government they have effectively printed money in breach of EU/ECB rules.

      The note was may be illegal they may have feared the action in the courts and they may still?

    • …. we are still shouldering debt which threatens to seriously undermine our society…..

      +1

  31. joe hack

    David, I hope your wife doesn’t know your out on the town chatting up women, excusing it with honey I was only doing economic research wont wash.

  32. redriversix

    Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced you used bank funds to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out.

    - Andrew Jackson, U.S. President

    • bonbon

      So it is clear Andrew Jackson v. Alexander Hamilton is the key issue. Jackson the populist, revered today by both Dems and GOP, both unable to muster any resistance to the Obama bailouts — because of the Jackson infiltration.
      The Condemnation of Andrew Jackson for Treason

      Jackson’s target, being a populist in the Goebbels “big lie” game, was the US National Bank. This is the target of various today. See the comment about the Greenback here to understand Jackson, traitor, and British agent, adored today by Dem’s ad GOP alike. It is no wonder there is a problem.

      • Tony Brogan

        And of course you ignore that Hamilton was a Rothchild, married into the Rothschild family, was an agent for the “british empire”, as you proclaim it.
        That the Rothschilds threatened to engulf the US in war and did so.

        Your thinking is warped Lord bon bon Rothschild. Either that or deliberately distortionary.

        You also personally use the Goebbels “big lie” game of repeating the “big Lie” often enough that it becomes a truth.

  33. Tony Brogan

    Posted Lemetropolecafe

    Ireland:

    Promissory note deal not spilling over to the economy: Reuters discussed the gap between the more favorable headlines surrounding Ireland’s emergence from the debt crisis and underlying economic conditions. It noted that while the long-awaited promissory note deal sliced billions off of Dublin’s financing needs and drove its borrowing costs to pre-crisis levels, it does not do anything for the one in six people unable to fully meet their mortgage payments and whose pain has been exacerbated by high unemployment and the austerity push. It also pointed out that over 7K people a month are leaving Ireland to work abroad.

  34. redriversix

    Breaking News… their is now confirmed reports that their is Horse-meat in…………..

    Shampoo,toothpaste,petrol,diesel, children’s clothing,sweets , ice cream,ballot papers,news readers, televisions , DVDs ,laptops,political parties,beef,pork, lamb,chicken,fish,bread,pastries,cake, tires,cars,trucks,buses,tarmac,houses,lamps,ovens,schools, cigarettes,ashtrays,porn, alcohol, Holland, France, Germany England Ireland,Iceland, The Bundesbank, Central-bank, Eamon Gilmore’s ears, Dublin Airport, Your couch,cushions,carpet,bed,toilet, Tony Hewitt’s Beard,Dogs,cats,mice,rats,Books,Donald Trumps wig,Garda uniforms, Miriam o Callaghans microphone., Auctioners,Banks & Bankers nuns,priests & monks,The Vatican,Trains,Planes & Automobiles,Hollywood,Bollywood & Ardmore Studios… Brussels,The E.C.B,Angela Merkel.etc etc etc

    NOW…….Can we please get on with what is really fucking important,you…….yes,YOU !!!!!!

    • joe hack

      True you eat the finest horse I’ve ever seen
      Standing sixteen, one or two, with peas wild and green
      You eat the horse so well, hands light to the touch
      I could never eat a horse no matter Tesco wanted me
      Ride on, see you, I could never eat with you
      no matter Tesco wanted me
      When you eat into the night without a trace behind
      Run your claw along it’s gut, one last time
      I turn to face an empty plate, where my horse used to lie
      And look for a spark that lights the night
      Through a teardrop in my eye
      Ride on

      • Have you tasted chicken nuggets that are rat meat ? And how do you know?

        • joe hack

          Never look a gift house in the mouth

          I have tasted rat meat and it tasted like chicken.

          I don’t know what chicken nuggets taste like if rat meat tastes like chicken it is possible that the chickens i was eating were in fact rats with feathers on them but i definitely remember plucking a chicken and then cooking it and when I tasted it it tasted like rat but rat tastes like chicken.

          A horse of a different kettle of fish or so the say goes

  35. joe hack

    About 400 people have been injured after a meteorite shot across the sky in central Russia.

    locals reported the meteorite contained several thousand tons of gold however Russian officials were quick to dismiss this.

    There is a large military contingent surrounding the area raising suspicions a Russian official has said that this is standard procedure.

  36. Tull McAdoo

    The first man that came to my mind when I read this article was Psychoanalyst Walter Langer (1899-1981). Langer in one of his more enlightened moments put forward the notion that:

    “People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one. And if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner than later believe it.”

    The policy being pursued here in Ireland is to convince people that a “big “ deal has been made with Europe with respect to these promissory notes and all that is left to do is, wheel out the usual bunch of school teachers and social workers (TD’s) onto the plinth at Leinster House to re-enforce the lie.

    Constantin Gurdgiev ripped Bernard Durkin a new asshole (pardon my Oz directness) on radio the other night when the clueless Bernard tried to convince listeners that Headmaster Noonen was the new “Sage of Omaha” or “Limerick West” and that said Noonan had delivered billions of savings for hard pressed citizens of Ireland over…….yawn ,yawn ,yawn ,years…..Gobshite.

    Let me give readers the benefit of my years in the bond markets to clear this up for ye…
    Noonan converted short term, high interest loans which could have been negotiated to…………Wait for it…….Long term mortgage , with variable interest rate that is fixed in stone and cannot be negotiated down short of a sovereign default.

    For those of you not familiar with all things financial, this is just like, where people converted their car loans, credit union loans, credit card loans and so forth into one big loan through re-mortgaging and now we all know how that ends up……..please tell me ye all know how that works out or I’m jumping into the Indian ocean…..

    • bonbon

      Strange that Hitler’s Goebbels used that quote to do what he intended. Or is it?

    • joe hack

      “please tell me ye all know how that works out” I dont!

      Enjoy your swim

    • Adam Byrne

      Lucid as always Jim.

      • Tull McAdoo

        Hi Adam,
        what should be very clear to people in Ireland at this point in time is that their present Government, just like their previous Government (including advisors) is not interested in solving Irelands debt problem, but are only concerned with solving Irelands “cash flow” problem. What you are witnessing in Ireland is a classic case of debt roll-over and copious amounts of “can kicking down the road”……

        Cash flow to prop up a failed regime in what is becoming a failed state by the day……as the wonderful poet Francis Ledwidge (1887-1917), put it all those years ago in his “Lament for Thomas McDonagh”

        He shall not hear the bittern cry
        In the wild sky where he is lain
        Nor voices of the sweeter birds
        Above the wailing of the rain.
        Nor shall he know when loud March blows
        Thro’ slanting snows her fanfare shrill
        Blowing to flame the golden cup
        Of many an upset daffodil.
        And when the dark cow leaves the moor
        And pastures poor with greedy weeds
        Perhaps he’ll hear her low at morn
        Lifting her horn in pleasant meads.

        Pastures poor with greedy weeds indeed……

        • george

          McAdoo: Yes of course they are only interested in solving the cash flow problem, and not in doing the right thing of facing the Banks, Bondholders, and Corporations, as the Icelandic Government did.
          .
          It is in their own interest, otherwise the cosy pyramid skim that the rest of the fools support for them will collapse, and they and their pals in the public and private sector, won’t be able to maintain their fat salaries, pensions, and privileges, among the highest in Europe. And if it doesn’t change first, nothing can do for the good of the well being of Society.
          .
          Their patriotism and courage is regulated by terms and conditions, that are crippling the domestic economic, and add insult to the pain of thousands of people choked by debt. And that will be persecuted for the rest of their lives, even if they wish to give back the keys of their homes to the Banks, and to emigrate.

          • bonbon

            They are hapless victims of a system about to go Supernova, as PIMCO’s Gross below very nicely documents.

            It’s the system – that’s why Glass-Steagall.

  37. joe hack

    “The European Central Bank chief Mario Draghi has said the ECB will examine the Irish swap further.
    This comes after the German governing council member and Bundesbank chief Jens Weidmann said Ireland’s promissory note transaction comes dangerously close to contravening a ban on the monetary financing of governments.
    He said the ECB will re-examine the issue and “has to make sure that its actions are in conformity with its rules and statutes”.” RTE 15.02.13

    It may not change ‘the unilateral deal’ what can the ECB do they could bankrupt Ireland, they wont do that? would they? risky? but if Ireland can print why not Cyprus, Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany, ?

    No ECB Rules = No ECB = No Euro.?

    The Politics of Money Rules OK?

    Weidmann, Head of the Bundesbank, the Bundesbank rules OK?

    The Politics of Money Rules All OK

    Fun stuff

  38. joe hack

    “Once you cross a certain line, setting a precedent, it’s very difficult to come back and argue against the next similar transaction,” Mr Weidmann said

    “The independence of central banks being is questioned more and more, academically and politically. I think that’s a serious mistake, not because I’m sticking to principles but because it’s a key lesson learnt from history,” Mr Weidmann said.

    • joe hack

      “It’s a key lesson learnt from history” Mr Weidmann said

      Mr Weidmann we go to different school here in Ireland.

    • bonbon

      In any school a little bit of homework is advisable. Jens Weidmann in an interview refers to Friedrich von Hayek’s Denationalization of Money as being his tendency.

      This proves my point all along that even if there is resistance to the insane liquidity pumping of Super Mario Draghi, there is a total inept failure to deal with the physical economy. It is the other side of the bailout coin.

      Large sections of the EU elite central bankers are Hayek-ians. Not paradoxical for me.

      • joe hack

        “”"”When German chancellor Angela Merkel goes before the cameras to announce the departure of a cabinet minister, it’s usually a chilly, perfunctory affair.

        She’s gone through the motions at least half a dozen times since taking office in 2005, but when Dr Merkel announced “with a heavy heart” the departure of federal education and research minister Annette Schavan on Saturday, few doubted her.

        The German leader is not known for wearing her heart on her political sleeve, but Ms Schavan was probably the only friend Merkel had at the cabinet table.

        Ms Schavan resigned after an investigation panel at her alma mater, the University of Düsseldorf, found her guilty of “intentional deception through plagiarism” in her 1980 doctoral thesis.

        “As a doctoral candidate, throughout her entire dissertation, she systematically and deliberately presented intellectual efforts that were not her own,” said the university in a statement. An investigation found large sections of the dissertation, titled “Person and Conscience”, had been lifted without adequate attribution. As such, she was guilty of “intentional deception through plagiarism”. The 57-year-old minister said she did not accept the university’s decision and would take legal action to clear her name.

        “I neither copied nor deceived,” she said at a press conference on Saturday. She decided to resign to prevent “damage” to the education ministry then thanked “dear Angela” for her kind words and friendship.”"” DEREK SCALLY SAID IN IRISH TIMES

        • bonbon

          There is plagiarism movement that started with Bavarian Governor Stoiber’s daughter, spread to almost a witch hunt. Numerous politicians were removed. It’s so bad some thought the Pope resigned for plagiarism from the Bible…

          But what is most disturbing is that M.D’s are being accused. Is a PhD or an MD suddenly worth nothing?
          What if doctors cannot be trusted?

          • Adam Byrne

            This was a funny article the other day about the same topic.

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/18962349

            I should be starting a PhD myself in September but just as I don’t want other people’s money, nor do I want their words.

          • Did St Malachy not predict that Benedict would be the ‘Last Pope ‘ ? What does that mean now ? has it got a new colour now ? Will the next Pope not be the same as we once knew it to be and what will be the difference ?

          • bonbon

            If you don’t want other peoples money then you will work as a PhD for free? Charming. An example to all grads!
            ….
            Did Malachy say which Benedict exactly?
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
            has a hilarious note : This article may contain original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding references. Statements consisting only of original research may be removed. (February 2013)

            So now Wiki contains only plagiarized stuff, nothing original? The plagi-tools go after stuff with google.

          • Adam Byrne

            Haha don’t be disingenuous Mr. bonbon.

            You know full well that I meant that I don’t want other people’s money for doing nothing. I am not possessing of a sense of entitlement, unlike many people in this country – borrowing other people’s money that they can’t afford to pay back, to buy things that they don’t need.

            However, I intend and expect to be pain generously for fruits of my hard labour.

          • Adam Byrne

            ‘paid’

          • bonbon

            Then lets make sure the economy has the jobs.

      • Tony Brogan

        “Although the argument in places is necessarily abstract and
        requires close attention, the central theme is crystal clear:
        government has failed, must fail, and will continue to fail to
        supply good money”

        From Denationalization of Money

        Good job some EU bankers as exhibiting some rational thought.

        • bonbon

          von Hayek in this piece shows his true colors – brown. He attacks the nation state, the Credit Clause of the US Constitution exactly as Rothschild proposed in that letter to the Times, quoted in UK Column.

          The EU has destroyed every nation state in its grasp with the Euro, exactly the Rothschild policy Hayek “abstracts”. The true color of brown is imperial, and Hayek continued Hitler’s work with a smile and a wink.

          • Tony Brogan

            There is a total difference between destroying a nation state as the EU is trying to do and having a free persons money controled by no one circulating between nations. It is the political and central bank control of the Euro doing the damage at the behest of its masters , the Rothschilds.

            Your bigoted mindset can’t separate from your conditioned rant.

            You propose the policy of a Rothschild agent, Hamilton, whch you do not deny. Then twist and contort the truth with deliberate lies. You have been called a lier by others here and I have to agree.You plan to deceive.

            Anyone can research and read Hayek to observe the truth.

          • bonbon

            Hayek carried out Rothschilds suggestion as documented
            The Case For A “Greenback” Pound
            Financial System Continues Collapse – Opportunity for Optimism

            Rothschild :”If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedence in the history of the civilised governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed, or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe.”
            Hayek in 1983 I’d like to see a crash before I die yearns for the Hapsburg monarchy.

            So there you hasve it. Hayek is in fact the Rothschild agent!

  39. joe hack

    Never look a gift horse in the mouth – it may not be all it seems it could be a Celtic Tiger that snaps your head off it could mutton dressed up a lamb it may even be a disguise it self. but never look at it in the mouth enjoy it it tastes like chicken

    A horse of a different kettle of fish

    Beware of the Indian givers

    The EU give-it the EU take it away… after you’ve spent it…

    A Meteoric Decline

  40. Q. why couldn’t they do the same for her loans, of mere thousands?

    A. Because the government does not give a fuck about you.

  41. redriversix

    Let me be perfectly clear..

    people come first,not Banks or their agents….Around the world Banks have acted fraudulently . Their are many ,many cases of this, from rigging rates to laundering drug money..,in this & many other websites & Newspapers.
    Companies fail in business every day,perfectly acceptable as that is the risk you take setting up a business,however when it comes to Banking,they write their own rules & continue to profit from their abject failure.

    As far as I am concerned peoples homes & business are entitled to protection from Banks as a precedent was set by Government .Banks can be bailed out,ruin a Country,but people have to roll-over ? I say NO.

    Government says we have to get our own Country in order because we are borrowing too much for day to day expenses,they cared not one whit about this until AFTER the Bank Bailout.

    Austerity,six years in ,is a failed policy.in the history of the World Austerity has only ever worked once and that was in ENGLAND DURING THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.

    Bond market ready to explode as every bubble has ever done,printing money every day ,every where will not & has not solved the problem.
    If printing money worked Zimbabwe would be a very successful; country today.

    Europe is in a deep rescission ,reports of Euro area economies contracting again by 0.6%

    What people need to do today is put themselves first,take care of yourselves & your families,do a budget,slash your debt repayments.I Guarantee you today this financial War will continue to worsen and I for one will be doing all I can to help those facing Eviction.

    The N.T.M.A pays Mr John Corrigan over €800,0000 a year,Taoiseach receives over €200,000 per year,check the rest of the Banking C.E.O Wages and you will soon realize who is in charge.

    Don’t wait for permission to protect your family , do it today & think of your neighbor once in a while.

    Good luck & have a great day.

  42. redriversix

    Morning Tony

    Thank you so much for the phone-call last night…helluva thing you did to call somebody from 3000 miles away,really grateful for that,hope you have a great day & many thanks again.

  43. redriversix

    Hey Adam..

    .590 metric tonnes ! no …wait….sorry that’s what Russia bought last week..!!!!

  44. joe hack

    Have a look at this image http://www.irishtimes.com/ and then compare it the ones below Obama war on terror!!!

    http://www.themediaspeaks.com/2013/01/31/7-year-old-child-handcuffed-and-detained-10-hours-over-5/

    7 Year Old Child Handcuffed and Detained for 10 Hours Over Missing $5…

    A five-year-old boy was threatened with suspension by school officials in Massachusetts after he built a small toy gun out of Lego bricks and …

    The USA is on the prowl for a new war it needs one like the roman empire army’s of the past the USA has itchy feet, role a dice and pick your enemy…

    Iran, North Korea launches a missile they are terrorists south Korea launches a missile it’s a proud day for them.

    Last week Israel bombed Syria a sovereign state, maybe Syria is to hot for USA to directly take on as the Chinese and Russian may be drawn in, so lets see what happen if we prod using allies…WMD excuse is were thin with the masses something new is needed.

    The Demise of USA is immanent as Romulus Augustulus Obama is a war monger with out any logic he continually murders people in Pakistan yemen Afghanistan and Iraq etc.

    Bush only had two wars this man has at least four,to many irons in to many fires.
    The USA is on the prowl

    • joe hack

      Have a look at this image http://www.irishtimes.com/ and then compare it the ones below Obama war on terror!!!

      the image above has moved but it was of A boy carrying a AK47 rifle in Nassiriya in Iraq today.attacked …

      http://www.themediaspeaks.com/2013/01/31/7-year-old-child-handcuffed-and-detained-10-hours-over-5/

      7 Year Old Child Handcuffed and Detained for 10 Hours Over Missing $5…

      A five-year-old boy was threatened with suspension by school officials in Massachusetts after he built a small toy gun out of Lego bricks and …

      The USA is on the prowl for a new war it needs one like the roman empire army’s of the past the USA has itchy feet, role a dice and pick your enemy…

      Iran, North Korea launches a missile they are terrorists south Korea launches a missile it’s a proud day for them.

      Last week Israel bombed Syria a sovereign state, maybe Syria is to hot for USA to directly take on as the Chinese and Russian may be drawn in, so lets see what happen if we prod using allies…WMD excuse is were thin with the masses something new is needed.

      The Demise of USA is immanent as Romulus Augustulus Obama is a war monger with out any logic he continually murders people in Pakistan yemen Afghanistan and Iraq etc.

      Bush only had two wars this man has at least four,to many irons in to many fires.
      The USA is on the prow

    • Tony Brogan

      The world is gone mad while were not looking, Joe.

  45. joe hack

    The issue is most of the commentators here are enveloped in their divided local issues Biffo versus Kenny, private versus public sector workers etc. they have been conquered education is key.

    Biffo and others are part of a system that is flawed across the globe the money system is flawed.

    The cast of the play changes but the plot remains the same the punch bag that is biffo, Kenny and others may release your anger temporally but there will be a new cast to replace the old but plot will remain the same.

    Don’t expect your leaders do be any more or less human then you might be.

    We need to change the money system the fractional reserve banking system needs to change.

You must log in to post a comment.
× Hide comments