February 8, 2013

Let's get something very clear

Posted in Irish Independent · 194 comments ·

There are two parties in the promissory note negotiations. On one side is the ECB and on the other, the Irish government. The ECB wanted all along to turn Irish bank debts into Irish sovereign debts. The Irish government wanted to avoid this at all costs, preferring either some debt relief or some mutualization or sharing of the debts.

Once the promissory note was in place the Irish had wriggle room, which the ECB wanted to reduce, while giving as little away as possible.

Lets look at the interests of both parties in turn, beginning with the ECB.

There are two main reasons the ECB wanted the Irish to swap the promissory note for sovereign debts. First it would tidy up, in its eyes, the messy promissory note; it was unorthodox and as long as it was around, ran the risk that the pesky Irish could go rogue, doing a local deal with themselves between their central bank and their government – far away from Frankfurt. If the Irish government said they weren’t paying the note, the Irish central bank would find itself breaking the ECB’s rules on monetary financing. By not paying the note and yet still extending cash to Anglo, the Irish central was simply printing money with nothing to back it up.

The second reason the ECB wanted the Irish to convert the promissory note into Irish government bonds, was because it would create collateral against the money the Irish central bank was printing: and the Irish people would be on the hook. As long as the Irish people are on the hook, the ECB is happy.

Now look at the opening position of the Irish government.

The position of our government was: the banking debt is not ours, it is unfair and Ireland was only doing its bit to save the European banking system by bailing out our bank. By preventing contagion, we are owed a favour. So the Irish government’s red line in the sand has to be to avoid swapping the promissory note into a government bond. Why? Once you do this, the debt becomes the debt of the Irish people – and the ECB are off the hook.

Once you accept that it is Irish government debt, the game is over. So the last thing the government wants to do is convert the unorthodox promissory note into government debt – at any maturity.

The deal on the table is a complete defeat for the Irish government and the Irish people, because at its core, when you strip away all the technical details, it is about transferring bank debt to sovereign debt.

So, it is game set and match to the ECB. Now it is rid of the promissory note – which was only an IOU written by the last Finance Minister with a vague undertaking to clear things up eventually -converting it into Irish sovereign debt, which means you and me are definitely on the hook. The ECB must be sniggering up its sleeve, if it is not actually laughing in our face, at the inability of the Irish negotiators to act on our behalf.

Yet again, our negotiators have sold the people short and given the ECB everything it wanted.

This move will increase overall Irish government debt and in time, will bring forward the risk of a sovereign default in Ireland, which is precisely what the deal was supposed to avoid.

David McWilliams’ new book The Good Room is out now.

  1. Reality Check

    I Beat Adam subscribe here!

    • Lius

      Nice ONE,

      Hey David, how about a weekly prize for the person who posts the most first “SUBCRIBE” posts.

      • TheIrishFonz

        Think we should focus on the issues, the subscribing thing is coming across a bit childish in the face of such monumental issues as highlighted in the article, maybe the moderator needs to get involved so this so a personal plea, could people please just comment on the articles and cease with trying to be the first to comment with a ‘subscribe’.

        • Lius

          OMG, with a handle like “TheIrishFonz” I would have thought you might be a bit of fun. Why so serious Fonzie?

        • Tony Brogan

          Lets have it. now is your chance to offer your solution and resolution to the polution on this blog!!!!.{:-))

          • Ok lets have it Brogie

            Probably best we have a clear the air and define ‘pollution’.

            Let rip Brogie Man

            Then we can ‘focus on da issuez’ as fonzey suggested.

            Or we can all become wet arsed snobs who pretend to understand investing.

            I’m with the guys who prefer humour. Suit yourself.

        • Adam Byrne

          I have been doing in for years because there’s no other way of me getting the emails from the get-go when a new article goes up (which I might not have time to read at the time). I’ve been through it a few times with the webmaster (or various webmasters) and there’s no easier way of doing it. Some genius noticed that I was usually one of the first to comment and we had a bit of a laugh and friendly competition about it. It’s time has passed now though, haha.

        • +1

          Yeah I know what you mean dude. We need to stop these people having fun. Having fun bah. It was never like that in my day and life was not meant to be fun I can tell you!


          Who the fuck do they think they are !!

  2. Reality Check

    David, Noonan said Yesterday that the reason they never asked for a write off of the PN was because the Greeks didn’t get any write down of ECB debt.
    You have said that the Greeks did get a write down
    What gives?

    • hibernian56

      Ask yourself one simple question…

      If you owned the local Centra would you put ANY member of our government in a management position? Would you listen to their economics advice? Would you give them the combination of the safe? Would you trust them enough to give them the keys and go on holidays? etc. etc. etc.

      I rest my case.

      • Adelaide

        I would hire JobBridge slave labourers and thank the government for providing me with such a wonderful economic stimulus by voting for them in the next election. May this generousity long continue.

      • DB4545

        Are you kidding hibernian56? If Michael O’Leary had sent them to negotiate the post 9/11 deal with Boeing or Airbus Ryanair would be bankrupt and Michael would now be living in a council house in Mullingar. Three schoolteachers in key positions with no business experience against European High Finance? A no-brainer and the results are there for all to see. If we have an un-elected troika running the country why are we paying our elected 166 TDs and whatever amount of Senators crazy money to talk shite to each other? A pal of mine did a quick poll in his local in Waterford a few weeks ago. Everyone wrote down their weekly tax payment on a beermat. The total was just over 3000Euro. Bertie Ahern’s weekly pension. And there’s thousands like Bertie getting thousands a week. Twenty people and all their tax payments are for one pension payable to a man who did so much for Bertie. I hope someone is listening. The centre cannot hold for much longer.

      • decko

        Couldn’t agree more. When i saw Noonan on the news talking about the price of his house and his salary cheque 25 years later I could only think the man is a buffoon. Ok, he was probably trying to simplify things for the ordinary taxpayer! But does he really want to go back to the periods of high inflation (of course he does….it makes the debt cheaper in real terms…)

        • As said many times, they want to keep the status quo, to protect themselves and their ilk.
          How can they say we can’t pay when they earn more than their European counterparts ?
          They are advised by firms making huge profits from the advice !
          It’s a mess, we’re a joke so yes they laugh to our faces.

    • redriversix

      Noonan lies

  3. Pat Flannery

    Even Gilmore said yesterday that it was always sovereign debt. You are deliberately distorting the facts and playing pied piper for London. Karl Whelan has it right, you are just spreading lies. Too bad.

    • hibernian56

      And you would believe a word that comes out of Gilmore’s mouth? Is he qualified to talk about economics? Career union rep and civil service lackey.

      How can the debts of a private company (Anglo) be considered sovereign debt with a straight face? Where is the logic?

      Just because several drunken corrupt fools made a very onerous decision WITHOUT public consent does not make it legal. The whole affair stinks. BC & BL et al, including Muinteoir Martin and the other members of the cabinet at the time made the worst most ill informed decision in the history of the state. There is no accountability.

      And thanks to the fact that the media in this country is complicit in the spin, people of this country actually believe that it is our debt and that we did receive a bailout.

      Of course the other factors such as the inflated civil service pay and perks packet which is inflating our actual sovereign debt is another mess entirely.

      • Pat Flannery

        The proof that the promissory notes were intended to be sovereign debt from the beginning, which was the only asset CBI could accept under ECB rules, were obtained by RTE’s Paul Colgan in 2011 but have now been withdrawn from the public domain. Call him and ask him why. This little country is a lot sicker than its citizens realize.

        • hibernian56

          Holy shit.

          Is there a copy of this anywhere?

          • Pat Flannery

            It seems RTE has reinstated the links TODAY, probably as a result of the various and persistent questions I raised, which they pretended to ignore until today.

            Here is a link to the Paul Colgan story of July 2011 with the restored links. But there is still much missing or redacted. Did RTE receive the actual “letters of comfort” and fail to publish them?


            If we can’t trust our “national broadcaster” who can we trust? Time for a lot more questions.

          • Whenever I posted important excerpts from RTE programmes such as their “Ghost Estates” documentary,RTE demanded the removal of same (citing copyright) and youtube quickly complied with their request-even though the “Ghost Estates” documentary is no longer available on the RTE website.!

        • 5Fingers

          So what are you going to do about it? Answer: Nothing.

          • whatamess

            So what are you going to do about it?

            Answer: Make others aware of such goings on,so we,the PEOPLE, with no blinkers strapped on can know the REAL story !

            Cheers for your contributions Pat Flannery and tiranog33

        • redriversix

          A lot of people on this site have been trying to get across just how sick Ireland is,wait for bond bubble to explode….

    • cooldude

      How can the debts of failed private institutions be construed as sovereign debt. The only reason this was moved onto the backs of the Irish taxpayers was to protect the bondholders who are in the main European banks. If they had done any due diligence they would have known that Anglo and Nationwide were loaning to extremely risky construction projects most of whom were not even zoned for construction. They deserve to loose a large portion of their money due to negligence. The only one distorting the facts here is you Pat either due to pure ignorance or your blind pro EU stance which prevents you from seeing these issues clearly. The ECB has protected the banks and landed the losses on the backs of the taxpayers. The only reason it is now sovereign debt is because our so called leaders were either intimidated or bribed to make these private debts sovereign. It was a clear part of FG’s campaign that they would “burn the bondholders”. They have lied to the Irish people and if you are dumb enough to fall for these lies that’s your problem. This debt was fraudulently induced and is odious debt.

      • Pat Flannery


        Genuine debt securities (unsecured bondholders) were a very small element of Anglo’s debt, about 12%. The SOVEREIGN promissory notes were given to the CBI to enable it to issue Exceptional Liquidity Assistance (ELA) to cover the fact that most of Anglo’s “assets” were bogus. The CBI knew it, the Irish Government knew it but more importantly the ECB knew it and refused to play ball. The bondholders story was created as a cover by the Irish spinmeisters.

        The ECB could not prevent the Irish Government from creating SOVERIGN assets and giving them to the CBI to bailout the failed Anglo-Irish bank. The Big Lie now being told by both the Irish Government and the Irish media is that “the ECB made us do it”.

        That lie I am sure will not be forgotten nor forgiven by the Europeans. It may turn out to be the real cost of Ireland’s attempted “stroke” politics on their European partners.

        • cooldude

          The fact is Anglo was a private institution which was run very badly and should have been allowed to go where it rightfuly belonged into bankruptcy. On the night when the shit was hitting the fan for Anglo Peter Sutherland, european head man for goldman sachs who just happened to be one of the bondholders, called out to Lenihan to persuade him to stop Anglo going under. Lenihan’s original scheme to give a six month guarantee to deposit holders was not a bad one and it would have given savers ample time to get their money out before letting this heap of junk go under. Governments should not get involved in recapitalization of banks. It is just socialization of any losses yet huge bonuses when their risky bets come off. This is not just an Irish problem as insolvent banks are being propped up by governments and tax payers all across the western world. The bankers, led by the central banks and the BIS, are running the whole show now. No mater how you try and spin this many people fully realize that the anglo debt has nothing to do with ordinary tax payers in Ireland. Failed companies should be allowed to go into bankruptcy and let new ones come along to take their place and learn from the experience. A good idea would be to make directors of banks personally liable for any bad debts. this would have stopped the nonsense that went on at Anglo and Nationwide.

          • Original-Ed


            Comparing banks to ordinary business is somewhat childish, unlike ordinary business, they have to work within a set risk framework controlled by the state through its regulator. The fact that the regulator allowed Anglo to behave so recklessly, we as citizens of this state are now on the hook . That’s the way the system works, good states have good public servants and bad states have bad ones.

            We didn’t pay these public servants huge salaries to simply enjoy the view from their office window, but that would appear to be what was actually happened.

            Seanie only did what he was allowed to do, no more, no less and you’ll find that he won’t be facing trial anytime soon. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.

          • Pat Flannery

            We are in complete agreement on that. The problem is that Lenihan did it and it cannot be undone. All that is left is the blame game.

            What we just experienced is a total political not financial systemic failure.

            Under the control of financial manipulators, it could have been any special interest, our political party bosses marched their backbench TDs into our parliamentary voting lobbies exactly as the landlords marched their tenants to the polling stations in the 19th century.

            Democracy is as big a sham today as it was under the landlord system. The problem is therefore political and can only be solved politically. That is what Draghi was trying to tell us yesterday.

            It will be a huge challenge and will get much worse before it gets better.

          • cooldude

            Banking should be just an ordinary business to mind people’s money and to pay a small interest on that money if people allow them to lend it out for a fixed period. That is what banking was and should be but it has morphed into a giant parasitic monster that sucks all the wealth from people with it’s endless gambling and interference. Money is just another good and banking is just a service and if this sector of the economy was allowed to function like the rest bad banks would simply fail and good banks would do well. What has gone wrong is the elite bankers have taken complete control of our society through their control of central banking and the issuance of our money supply. The remedy to this is to take away their exclusive franchise on what we can use as money and allow different forms of money to coexist and let the people decide which one they want to use. This would introduce “creative destruction” in the form of money we use and people would use the form that suits them the best. The government would issue their paper money which would be used for paying taxes. Other forms of money such as bitcoin and digital gold and silver systems would be allowed to coexist and their value could float in relation to the government money. If the government was printing too much money and debasing their money too quickly people could simply switch their savings to a different form which was not being debased. This would involve repeal of the legal tender laws much like what was proposed by Ron Paul in America

            In regards to banks they should simply perform the service they were originally designed to do and stop all this gambling casino carry on. The simple way to do this is to let the reckless ones who gamble too much and lose FAIL. This is how we get excellence and choice in every business and banking is just another business, no matter what these egotistical assholes pretend. Making their directors personally liable for any losses would put some manners on them and stop a lot of their criminal behavior. There is no place in this type of system for central banks and their constant interference in every part of the economy. They had their chance and they failed. Get rid of them and lets have some creative destruction in the good that is money and the service that is banking.

    • Gilmore?

      You are not serious if you are asking us to believe anything he says. A rubber lipped painted clown in a suit.

  4. CitizenWhy

    Once the debt becomes Irish sovereign debt, why not default on that debt? That’s what Iceland did. Off the hook for the promissory note, Ireland still has enough sovereignty to default. That, or the real prospect of that,should bring the ECB, Germany and the EU down a notch and make them negotiate fairly.

    • Clarence Beeks

      That’s NEVER going to happen… Why?…. because their gold plated TD/Ministerial pensions would be at stake!!!

      • CitizenWhy

        Too true. They work for the ECB/IMF now. Their paychecks come from those sources. They are elected officials only in theory, instead they are estate stewards for Ireland’s new owners.

  5. Thriftcriminal

    They don’t care, they will be in the ground by the time the debt has to be paid. Generational apartheid.

  6. Tony Brogan

    About time there was a march on Leinster house and a sit down in the central bank of ireland.
    Traitors all.

    • XL-R8

      well then hit the streets tomorrow, FEB 9TH to show your anger alongside your own people. the time is now to rise up or we may as well just completely give up

    • 5Fingers

      March and then what? No one cares.

      Irish people never had or never will develop outrage with the exception of football matches. We had 30K marching becasue of horsemeat in burgers – a minor distraction with no food poisoning issues. Only a fraction of that marches when money is withdrawn for helping the disabled.

      We follow the media, we follow where convention advises. Oddly enough, in the main, this has been human history. Only the outsiders get squished.

      • XL-R8

        there was nnot 30k people out protesting about horseburgers, nobody went protesting about horseburgers at all or did i miss something,

        so because we haven’t really got too upset yet and that’s down to fear, denial, complete corruption of the print and broadcast media, church involvement etc you think we will never wake up and fight back,

        what is holding you back from hitting the streets with us tomorrow? don’t let yourself down by using a million reasons why not to go when it only takes one to get up and stand up

        • 5Fingers

          I am mixed up – apologies. Germans protest in Berlin (I think 30K) about food scandals. Yet we hardly give a toss about our own people when dealing with a real plight.

          I will not be marching because I see no leadership I can follow that’ll make one whit of difference.

          • transitionman

            That is why I appeal to David Mc Williams with his respected profile newspaper readers and 76k twitter followers, PLEASE stand up and lead. These last two articles are 2 days too late. Ballyhea Charleville marched 100 weeks with no media support. Articles like these and our comments are all that is available to many fearful observers. If David had addressed the 100 week meeting in Charleville and marched on Sunday and called for every town to march against the Prom ~Notes. Would the spin on the submission of our people to the wishes of the ECB be more difficult for Noonan and Kenny?

  7. Tony Brogan

    Ireland needs to leave the Euro and Dump the debt. The sooner the better.

    • 5Fingers

      Maybe over a protracted period. But not suddenly. We are near 100% dependent on imports for energy. Transport, Power Generation would be destroyed overnight. Our exports would be cheaper, but energy costs will keep them up in price for reasons stated earlier. Food prices would rocket. Exactly how are we going to dig it out/ harvest it – with Irish Owned Oil?

      • joe hack

        fear mongering is why we are in debt

      • Tony Brogan

        Well if you go the whole hog it is a done deal.
        Odious debt revoked That gets rid of half the debt.
        Form a new currency issued from Treasury debt free and no interest. Unit for unit and print to pay off the national debt period.
        slash government by putting all jobs up for tender and people who want to work will apply and those that don’t will not. gold plated pensions chopped.
        no debt to pay services streamlined Income tax can be eliminated.
        currency may drop in value. There may be inflation in imports. Exports would be easier. but with no income taxes then people decided what to spend their money on or not.
        Within weeks the currency strenthens as the economy stabilzes. Business continues.
        monetize one ounce silver coins from reputable mints such as canadian, Australian, US, Austrian and any others.
        Repeal the legal tender act so people can deal in the money of their choice. silver coin will be money alongside the paper treasury notes. Authorise the Irish mint to buy silver and mint silver coin until demand is sated. mint can produce silver coins of fractional ounces half, quarter, 10th and 20th of an ounce.

        Problem solved and the country not in debt, no central bank, not requiring any borrowing, fractional reserve banking banned. recovery swift and Ireland is the place to do business. Keep the VAT as a comsumption tax is superior to an income tax. irish people get to save and only taxed when spending. vistors will pay toward services used through the Vat on purchases. Only residents get the zero income tax.
        Capital gains tax eliminated also as that is a tax on inflation. No tax on dividends , no tax on interest earned.
        with no income taxes there is no pressure on wages. Ireland becomes more cost effective than other places. International corporations return to hire people and do business. people go back to work . Economy grows, unemployment drops, emmigration slows, services improve. No more dictat from Brussels bureaucrat

        • Tony Brogan

          Oh yes and bring home that 6 tonnes of gold sitting in London and re-open any gold and silver mine that can be found in the country.That is 240 million euro in hard cash.Nice if that was returned to treasury.That would go a little way to backing the new currency.

          Don’t call it a punt. Pick a unique Irish name. A Milesian, a Tara, a deValera, a Collins, an Emmet, a Gael. you pick?

        • 5Fingers

          You have not answered the question on energy. You have 48hrs of energy left after your great announcement to give the 2 fingers. What happens in the next 2 weeks. Remember Ireland depends on 99% on imports. Your move!

          You have no time to fire civil servants or renegotiate or be dictatorial on pensions or whatever. And Farming has stopped becasuse they ran out of diesel.

          Please start thinking.

          • joe hack

            Idiotic sheepish response designed to keep the sheep in their flock, moronic trash from those that don’t think and just spume out the words of other that don’t think.

            “And Farming has stopped becasuse they ran out of Diesel.”

            Fingers, what paper did read that crap in and pray tell how do we get diesel today?

            Where did you get that Ireland survival is dependent on 99% of imports we export more than we import?

            We are one of the only a few country’s world wide that is not food dependent on any other nation even with a horse and cart asked Winston Churchill

          • Ladies

            You have a hearth so you dig peat and forage for wood

            You have a pellet gun for catching wildlife

            You learn to fish

            You learn to sow seed and keep a few chickens

            Water is plentiful

            You make, enjoy in reasonable amounts and sell beer

            You make things people want to buy

            You grow your own medicine and say no thanks to mothers little helpers

            Electricity is a challenge but not insurmountable

            You stay away from tv and the net for as long as poss

            Simple pleasures are the best

            Whither it’s feeding stray cats at the back door or amusing oneself with the locals

          • transitionman

            The following two weeks may be actually something you have to deal with on your path also. Have a look at this work http://www.feasta.org/2012/06/17/trade-off-financial-system-supply-chain-cross-contagion-a-study-in-global-systemic-collapse/
            If you study Climate Change you might actually conclude we should do it tomorrow!

      • Tony Brogan

        Why do you think energy, oil , is cut off overnight?

      • transitionman

        Default Devalue Depart what you are left with is 4 million on a lifeboat with a chance to ride out the DEBT and ENERGY part of the fast approaching storm.

        • joe hack

          idiotic words, a nonsense designed to cause fear we had a bank strike for six months in the seventies and we did just fine, in a less efficient time.

          You must be following in the footsteps of other sheep the storm is on us now and the depression is deepening outside of the eye

          The goods and services that Ireland has for sale now wont suddenly stop being for sale tomorrow that is the fear mongering that got here today.

          In fact the addicted gamblers will be banging at the to buy debt free punts they can stop you know.

          Be careful and mind yourself,you don’t want to end up in the A hole of that sheep in front you so don’t follow to enthusiastically

          It not is to long ago that Ireland had its own money and less debts or enslavement in a much harsher environment.

    • Mary Jenkins

      I second that Transitionman. The Ballyhea marches did not get the coveage they deserved, someone with a high profile and a good communicator would be able to get the people of Ireland motivated to do the same as the people of Ballyhea.

      Diarmuid O’Flynn‏@ballyhea14 (Sorry I can’t get a clickable link to Twitter)

      “Many times in the last few days I’ve been asked if the recently announced deal with the ECB means the end of the Ballyhea protest. The short answer is no, absolutely not – quite the contrary, it means we’ll simply have to ramp up our protest, try to get the Irish people to see the truth of what has just happened”

      It’s not enough to rage against the lie…you’ve got to replace it with the truth

  8. Johno

    Let down yet again by the goverment.

  9. molly

    Yes yes well said David .
    David you know yourself this only skimming over the cracks.
    There’s a lot more serious money problems for mortgage holders coming to a cinama near you soon.

  10. Sovereign Leech Minister

    Part 1 Negligence : for Fatal Intravenous Bad Blood injected into Margaret McCole .

    Part 11 Fraud : for Fatal Intravenous Sovereign Deception of Irish Nationhood.

    Part 111 Treason : for Denial of Voice of Ireland

  11. Steaf35

    There they are, our alleged government ……Patting themselves on the backs..!!!..Totally deluded bunch of self serving morons. Christy Moore is right….we are a bunch of s*** takers! A generational debt plan to shackle the future of a country.

  12. ThomasFergus

    “The ECB wanted all along to turn Irish bank debts into Irish sovereign debts. The Irish government wanted to avoid this at all costs, preferring either some debt relief or some mutualization or sharing of the debts.”

    In fairness David, did the bank guarantee introduced by the Irish Government not turn Irish bank debts into sovereign debts?
    A genuine question posed by an admirer who feels you were used and abused by Brian Lenihan.

  13. 5Fingers

    I wrote this in last article. I feel it is even more relevant here…

    Whether we like it or not, the die is cast. We are on a road that most other developed countries share. Maybe it is a consequence of modern democracy that need for the elected to hang on for the next term drives unwise profligacy and hence on-going debt rollover to perpetuity. Whatever it is, we are stuck with it for the foreseeable future and I expect a greater and greater portion of wealth will diverted away from Elected government to Private government — slowly but surely all organs of the state will become those of a shareholding driven by the need to ensure a return on investment and risk minimization.

    I see no way out of this. A new order is emerging slowly and most will be happy with it. Our education & media will make it so. The inherent injustices will be brushed aside as “those troublesome things” much like Famine Ireland in the mid 1840s was actually a very nice place with those odd rumblings of unfortunates lining the docks now and again and having to send the constabulary off to the countryside to sort out some trouble makers.

    Those of you talking about going to marches, joining some forum or new political movement you are wasting your time. Ditto for those wanting CBs to be banned, new standards for currencies and so on. The die is cast. For now it is over. You are out-voted and more to the point, out-gunned.

    Maybe we are (and have been for some time I guess) entering a new era of stability of stoic acceptance of a gradually increasing pain level that will be assuaged by ever more entertainment, distraction and trivia. Or maybe it is a case of the older generation “not getting it” and this is a new norm which will play out for the next stage of human development. Whatever it is, rest assured, it will have little to do with democracy as we know it today. Corporatism is the new norm and with it, the ethics and values of doing business and working with one another — which at the end of the day may more focused on social benefit than we might believe. We will still have the same old types making shapes and promises, but in the end, it’ll be down to the most survivable business case. You have to ask yourself, when was it any different in the past.

      • transitionman


        Many times in the last few days I’ve been asked if the recently announced deal with the ECB means the end of the Ballyhea protest. The short answer is no, absolutely not – quite the contrary, it means we’ll simply have to ramp up our protest, try to get the Irish people to see the truth of what has just happened.

        Oh, this deal will suit many.

        If you’re one of those who believes it’s an acceptable gambit to have an opening negotiation position where you concede without discussion the major point (we never even asked for a debt write-down), then yes, this is a deal for you.

        If you’re one of those who believes it’s an acceptable tactic to negotiate a deal whereby the odious bank debt burden is partially lifted from your shoulders and passed on to your children, and their children, then yes, this is a deal for you.

        If you’re one of those who believes it’s acceptable for 0.9% of the EU population to pay 55% of the total European bank bailout (using the actual €69.7bn figure as opposed to Eurostat’s €41bn), then yes, this is a deal for you.

        If you’re one of those who believes it’s okay to be blackmailed into accepting a debt that isn’t ours, private bank debt transposed under threat to sovereign debt, then yes, this is a deal for you.

        None of us in the Ballyhea/Charleville protest are of that mind. While we have no problem accepting that this is the best deal our weak, inept, incapable negotiators were able to get from the ECB, we do NOT accept that this was – or IS – the best deal possible.

        You don’t accept they were weak, inept? If you’re one of those who believe that because the ECB has never conceded debt write-down to any country then we shouldn’t even ask for it, then yes, this is a deal for you. Using that cowardly, defeatist logic, however, two years ago, because Kenny Egan was going for 11 Elite national titles in succession 17-yr-old Joe Ward had no business even stepping into the ring with this boxing giant. Over the next few weekends the Elite national boxing championships take place; young Joe will be seeking his third title in a row.

        That the ECB has never given debt write-down to any national government to date is irrelevant; our case – as has been admitted time and again by Europe itself – was special, unique. We were first in line in this European banking crisis, we were forced to take a massive hit, as a result of which we now have this crushing €69.7bn legacy debt. Make no mistake about it, we have a strong case and even still, we have every chance of succeeding. If we take them on.

        That’s what we’re doing in Ballyhea and in Charleville, that’s what we’ve done for the last 102 weeks. The only acceptable deal to us in this protest is a write-down of that debt.

        Contrary to the way Noonan and Kenny conducted their negotiations, we do NOT believe in conceding the key point, which is that this is not our debt, and most certainly not without even introducing the topic.

        Contrary to the thinking of Noonan, Kenny, Gilmore and Rabbitte and the rest of the FG/Lab/FF conglomerate, we do NOT believe it’s acceptable to ease our burden by passing it on to our kids and their kids, a debt which we argue is not ours, but which everyone can surely agree is most certainly not theirs.

        Contrary to the thinking of our political masters, we do NOT believe it’s acceptable for 0.9% of Europe’s population to pay 55% of the bank bailout debt.

        Contrary to the thinking of those same political masters, we do NOT believe it’s okay to be blackmailed/bullied/strong-armed into taking on debt that’s not ours. If a loan-shark foisted your neighbour’s failed €60,000 loan on your household of four, would you accept it? If that loan shark said, ‘Here, I’ve listened to your protests and I’ve decided that to ease your burden I’ll extend the terms so your children and grandchildren can share the load with you’, would you then accept that odious debt? Because if you have a household of four, that is exactly what has happened here.

        What we have is short-term gain for long-term pain, a sugar-coated cyanide pill. It’s not just that we’ve played totally into the ECB’s hands; our own government, just like the government of November 2010, has again delivered us lock, stock and barrel into the greedy arms of the ECB, and its web of blackmail and deceit.

        In summary, what has just happened is this: the ECB, having imposed a debt on Ireland, having heeded our cries of protest, hasn’t reduced that debt by a single cent but HAS extended the term so that the debt can now be shared by future generations. In my house, that is not acceptable; in this group, that is not acceptable. Our protest doesn’t just continue, it escalates.

        Week 102 this Sunday, in Charleville, meet at the Library Plaza 11.30am. Meanwhile we start building for a) the 2nd anniversary protest, March 3rd in Ballyhea and b) a visit to Brussels to put our case over there.

        Regards, Diarmuid O’Flynn.

        • 5Fingers

          The whole thing is legitimised gangsterism as Wills put is. No quibble there. But I fail to see what leverage will be brought to the table by a few people marching. You will be ignored.

          Ireland has a record in ignoring suffering. We had a famine where 80% of the population was ignored. We are used to the notion of a 2 economy state irrespective of the suffering and historically we see nothing wrong with it. It is still with us. Until this is addressed (and I have no idea how) your wasting your time.

        • whatamess

          very well written Transitionman !

          keep fighting that fight

  14. Adam Byrne


  15. michaelcoughlan


    Now we have a situation where the massive losses which were in the former Anglo are now lumped in with all the non-performing loans in NAMA. On top of that we will have all the losses crystallise this year from the people underwater in their mortgages which will back up into the so called pillar banks and all of which will wind up on the national balance sheet.

    Are we looking for being on the hook for north of €0.25 FUCKING TRILLON EUROS? And the scum of the earth in the Dail spinning that this is a great deal for Ireland?

    Funnily enough I am no longer angry or pensive. I am actually totally chilled out. I have recently learned how to short sell bonds etc. Jesse Livermore one of the world’s greatest stock traders made over 100million dollars (the equivalent of billions in today’s money) shorting securities in the 1929 crash.

    Remember all of you in the situation which we find ourselves now YOU and only YOU are responsible to help yourself and your family survive what’s coming down the track. If you are wise, skilled, disciplined, patient and courageous you will have nothing to fear. You will literally make a killing (metaphorical that is and hopefully not literally)

    The Munster Rugby Team and more importantly their supporters have a fantastic mantra for when the going gets tough;


    • Tony Brogan

      Well done Michael
      Shorting the bonds. Take that you suckers!!

        • Tony Brogan

          quite a change in a year or less. From the time I have been posting here there is a lot more general outrage and less snickering from the bleachers.
          I’d be interested in where you learned your shorting ability. Not something I have tried.
          Thanks for the GM link. I usually get around to it but you are hot off the press.tony@tonybrogan.com
          Take care

      • Realist

        I got rid of all government bonds from my pension a year ago.
        It looks moral to me to not give government a penny.

        I stopped voting a long time ago as realized I am to choose between multiple morons.

        • joe hack

          I glad you don’t vote it means my vote is worth more so I get to choose the best of the morons out there.
          your logic suggest give up and let others be part of the society you live.

          you then can complain about it and justify that you did not elect them now that is moronic that?

          • Realist

            Why would my choice be worse than yours ?

            I do not want to participate in democracy I do not believe anymore.
            I do not want to decide for others what to do.

            All I want to be given to decide for myself.

            Enjoy voting joe hack, it is your choice.
            Please leave me be with my own choice.

            And, of course I am not giving fighting, but I do not fight through voting morons.
            If Ron Paul was on the Ireland list I might go out and vote again, but all we have (and my previous country) are morons of political parties.

            I hope converted a few people to understand what economy and politics is about.
            I will also make sure my 3 children learn proper economy and live on libertarian principles.

  16. wills

    Lookit, this eventuality of switching debt was always on the cards.

    The beneficiaries of the banking-crony network run property bubble HERE running this economy ALWAYS factored in that the tab would be absorbed into the national debt.

    Those who are responsible have blood on their hands.

  17. Tony Brogan

    Posted yesterday at Lemetropolecafe

    06:44 Macro Summary: Eurozone sovereign debt crisis


    Ireland liquidates Anglo Irish to facilitate promissory note deal:

    What happened?: In a late night scramble, the Irish government rushed through legislation to liquidate the failed Anglo Irish Bank. While the government had originally intended to announce the liquidation alongside a deal with the ECB to replace the €31B it pledged in a promissory note for defunct lenders Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide during the height of the debt crisis, it was forced to move early to protect the country from legal challenges following leaks of its latest swap plan earlier this week.

    Swap proposal: Recall that the government is expected to swap the promissory note for a long-term bond. The swap will take Dublin off the hook for annual installment payments of €3.1B (the next one was due at the end of the March). The new bonds are also expected to be eligible as collateral at ECB financing operations. Under the terms of the liquidation (Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide were subsequently merged and renamed the IBRC), the remaining commercial property assets will be placed into the National Asset Management Agency, Ireland’s bad bank.

    Waiting for ECB approval: In terms of the next steps, the Irish government is still waiting to hear back from the ECB as to whether the central bank will sign off on the swap. The ECB rejected an earlier proposal because it viewed Ireland’s plan for its national central bank to hold the bond for 15 years as equivalent to monetary financing. While there have been some reports that the ECB could approve the deal as soon as today, others have suggested that some ECB members want to first meet with their own central banks to discuss the politically sensitive matter.

    (see WSJ, FT, Reuters, Bloomberg)

  18. Adelaide

    When the spin and hype clears the PEOPLE will realise they’ve been duped, AGAIN. The only positive is that a future government can default on this drawn out affair.

    By the way, this morning’s newspaper headlines are truly revolting to any citizen not in the sheep flock.

    Honestly, if there is a low turn out at tomorrow’s marches then where will the CHANGE come from if not from the PEOPLE?

    • 5Fingers

      There will be no following or marching or anything like that. Life will return to normal. A new normal of higher taxes, fewer services and higher definition TV.

      • Adelaide

        HD TV!

        Check out the music by “Emergency Broadcast Network”, their song “Watch Televison” comes to mind. Their songs are a soundtrack to our contemporary lives.

  19. Clarence Beeks

    The Government should be charged with treason!

    • joe hack

      yes but by whom? will someone else will do it for you

      • transitionman

        David Hall did go to the court as a concerned citizen. He took a case on the basis the constitution was breached in relation to the Prom Notes. Judgement passed was he had to be a TD to question the legality. Four Independent TDs have now joined his appeal to the Supreme Court.
        There may have been a chance the Prom Notes would be declared illegal . No wonder the rush to convert them to legal Government Debt.

  20. Stiofan

    The Irish Times reports that Enda confirmed the ‘interest-only’ basis of the debt in the Dail. (“In effect, we have replaced a short-term, high interest rate overdraft that had to be paid down quickly through more expensive borrowings, with long-term, cheap, INTEREST-ONLY,” said Mr Kenny). In 2038 the principal will remain. All the while interest will accrue, to be paid by this and the next generation. Eternal Debt.

    A debt that never was Ireland’s, that was not inflicted by our ‘government’ but by a secret meeting in the dark of September 2008 and never by our Dail, will now be inflicted on the unborn children of today’s toddlers. What a disgusting action. What an obscenity. What a treason.

    • Adelaide

      but who cares? Certainly not the Irish people. The younger generation are a hopeless bunch of wannabe materialists and the older generations have vested interested in the status quo.

      And besides, as Groucho Marx quipped in the Great Depression, “What have the future generations ever done for us?”

      • cooldude

        Another great quote from Groucho Marx springs to mind. This should be the FG motto from now on.
        “Honesty and integrity in all your dealings is the most important thing in this world. If you can fake that you have it made.”

  21. Colm

    When anyone mentions Sept 2008 and ‘that night’ – I always see in my minds eye the vision of John Gormley answering the ‘phone in his home, in his pyjamas (as he said himself)! It sums up exactly what I think of our ‘leaders’ – to use an old-fashioned term – all ‘buffoons’.

  22. John.Finnan

    At some point David, you’re going to have to accept that the negotiators are not idiots. I know the temptation is to ascribe to stupidity what could equally be explained by malice… but this is a very certain kind of stupid. And it is far more plausible that the explanation lies in malice, instead of ignorance.

    When will you write an article which talks about the intelligent forces betraying our country, instead of the ignorant gombeens we allegedly elected to run the country?

    • MollyMoppet

      I think he is – bankers on one hand and our idiot politicians on the other?

    • transitionman

      He could write an that article like that. One in praise of our glorious negotiators who did exactly what they were told by the ECB. The ones who got elected on the basis of transparency ,5 pints, jobs , not a red cent more,labours way etc. But there is a block on hiring new public servants . We also have state media and every economist paid by banks and insiders to write these articles.
      No John at some point it will dawn on you that he calls it like it is.

  23. redriversix

    “Today as celebrations begin in earnest across Ireland,Throngs of people line Westmoreland Street,left and right of Leinster House as far as the eye can see,towards Stephens green & Nassau street people stretch to catch a glimpse of the victorious coalition Government,led by Enda Kenny & Eamon Gilmore”

    The anti-austerity march planned for Sat the 9 of february has been switched to a street party in honor of this governments glorious victory over the E.C.B

    Leaders from across the World are lining up to attend, as the Taoiseach is feted by World business leaders offering investment,jobs & security.Private jets can be seen across the Dublin skyline as they wait patiently to land,their well-heeled passengers ,anxious to become part of this economic miracle.

    Prior to Minister Noonan’s departure to head up the World Bank,he has extended a olive branch to David Mcwilliams, Constantine Gordiev & Morgan Kelly offering them Senior positions in the new collective farming initiative being brought to Dail by Eamon Gilmore.

    Health Minister James O Reilly is unable to attend the official celebrations as he has a photo op & interview with “Men’s Health” Magazine.

    Following this Governments groundbreaking success against the E.C.B Junior Minister Brian Hayes & Lucinda Creighton have been asked by Al Qaeda to negotiate a formal surrender of hostilities.

    We will report further as celebrations continue across Ireland

    outside Taoiseach s Presidential Palace
    Ladybird News

  24. Thanks for clearing that up David. I also am curious as to the motivations of these people who do these ‘deals’. Its rather difficult to accept that they are just plainly and collectively idiots who can’t see the woods for the trees (though there are certainly idiots amongst them surely there are also manipulators).

    What accounts for the Government adopting this kind of strategy, is the question that bothers me. I know this is an economics blog and that is a political question. And I know the first thing many would be inclined to thing is the pensions and the perks, but this is only because Government in Ireland (the institution, not this particular flavour) is unpopular.

    I certainly had the impression the last time I was back in Ireland for a few days, that people just simply could not care one way or another any more. 5 years of time and energy expended on this perpetual crisis has taken its toll. It occurred to me that maybe that’s it though. One either has a politician in one’s pocket, or one just simply stops giving a fuck. So they simply get away with doing what they want, and it is all about the pensions and the perks.

    Same old same old, huh? Last one left, turn off the lights.

    • Eireannach

      I can answer that one for you, ‘what motivates these people’?

      It’s actaully quite simple. The coalition government is composed of a right-centre party and a left-centre party. FF voted with the government in the late night session this Wednesday to pass the IBRC Bill. The final vote was 130 or so for the Bill, 35 against. Why did all of FF, FG and Labour vote it in, including our delightfully socially conscientious President, Michael D Higgins?

      The answer can be summed up quite succinctly – all of the above are 100% committed to the view that Ireland’s strategic long-term goal lies in remaining in the EU, no matter what, and remaining in the inner core of the EU, the EZ, no matter what.

      Why? For FF and FG, it’s because the powerful power centres who give them campaign contributions – farmers, IBEC, the IFSC, the big pharma multinationals, the ICT multinationals like intel, Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Linked In – want absolute and utter certainty on this question to justify investing long-term in Ireland.

      The fact that David Cameron has thrown the UK into some uncertainty about its long-term strategic future RE: EU (in or out? who can say?), and the fact that Spain, Portugal, Greece and to a lesser extent, Italy are all playing bluff and hardball with the Franco-German EZ core actually motivates FF-FG-Labour to redouble, retriple our efforts to give industry and farmers absolutely certainty that we are 100% IN the EZ and EU for the long term.

      This way, Ireland can poach investment that might have gone to these mediterranean countries where wages are cheaper, or to the UK. We are making ourselves more of a strategically sure bet for investors by doing anything and everything to ingratiate ourselves and ‘rebuild our reputation’ with the core EZ.

      Many posters on this blog want Ireland to leave the EZ.

      Many even want Ireland to leave the EU.

      After Wednesday night, with the vote +130 FOR, +35 AGAINST, it’s even more clear where our political representatives want to take us…deeper and deeper into the United States of Europe.

      Now, as a believer in parliamentary democracy, I have to say, the YESES for EZ and EU have it. The vote in the Dáil is the proof.

      Our strategy is now clearer than ever. Onward to the USE. Of course a lot of Irish don’t want that, but they are massively outvoted and outfinanced by those that do want Ireland to stay in the EZ core.

      If people want to change strategic direction, vote SF, who’ll need over 50% to form a government, since no other party will form a coalition with it.

      The rest is pub-talk and post-match waffle, masquerading as analysis.

      • transitionman

        I agree with your assessment.
        But I will fight you all the way. As someone who feels he is Irish not European. I also resent your use of Eireannach as you have in the past clearly stated your views on the Irish language.
        Game of thrones in more ways than one!

        • Eireannach

          I accept the outcome. I didn’t say I was for or against our deeper involvement in the EZ core. It’s just ‘noted’.

          BTW that’s what Game of Thrones is all about, just adapting to circumstance as it unfolds.

          130 plays 35. Game over.

          Only a SF majority can turn things around. I’m not a betting man, but what are the odds.

          Táim ag chur feabhas ar mo chuid gaeilge faoi láthair.

          It’s not me you want to reprimand, it’s the 130+ TDs who voted for this thing, and the people who voted for those 130 TDs.

      • ouldbegrudger

        “Our strategy is now clearer than ever. Onward to the USE. Of course a lot of Irish don’t want that, but they are massively outvoted….”

        Don’t you mean EUSSR?

        • bonbon

          I believe the U.S.E first pushed by Sir Oswald Mosley of the British Fascists after WWII, is meant.

          Declan Ganley and Sir Oswald Mosley’s United States of Europe

        • Eireannach

          Yes, I mean the EUSSR.

          I passed 20 or more young women today, all texting into their cellphones or smartphones. How many of them care about the EU or Ireland’s future in the EZ? How many of them would like to have a chat with you about the EUSSR?

          All they want to know is ‘has anything changed’? (ie. have we changed direction from the EUSSR?

          The answer is ‘no’.

          So they just get on with their day.

          Welcome to Ireland, ouldbegrudger, as it is, not as you or anyone else might rather it to be, on the afternoon of 8 Feb. 2013.

          • bonbon

            It is as Churchill and Mosley wanted it to be. Or are you going to say it is from the soil, Blut und Boden?

  25. joe hack

    We have been enslaved by the money system to work to pay interest and in return we have received nothing and will receive nothing, this is called slavery.

    Welcome to the Magdalene Asylum those who don’t obey in the rest of the EU will be in fear of been sent here to this penal colony. But the people voted for this

  26. brefeye

    What you all say is true but only from two perspectives economics and ergonomics (i.E.) gettin home from solving the problems of the world in the pub. The essence of the tiriad is in that there are other players forgotten per.ex. monarchy tulips canals et.al.

  27. Realist

    “Yet again, our negotiators have sold the people short and given the ECB everything it wanted.”

    I do not see 2 sides at all here.
    They are the same.
    ECB and NCB’s are government owned.
    They are all criminals in white coats.

    • joe hack

      The people voted for this when they voted EU they endorsed it on many occasions…


      • Realist

        Very true.

        They are actually criminals in blue coats.
        Bad Blue Boys :)

      • bonbon

        What the people actually voted for was not delivered. Remember the last one? The coalition simply lied and delivered FF’s dirty work. Party politics!

        Ireland got more votes than any other country around. Germany had not a single referendum on any issue whatsoever from Maastricht to the ESM.

        Anyway the issue of breaking the banks is now on the German campaign trail – there is no way to avoid it. We forced Glass-Steagall onto the table right across the Transatlantic region. This is the central issue.

  28. ObsessiveMathsFreak

    I’m going to repeat what I posted on IE. Hopefully people here are more willing to discuss these points.

    The ECB hasn’t agreed to this deal.

    Effectively the deal is a unilateral move by the Irish Central bank to provide (very generous) monetary financing to its own government. I think that allowing this deal may well lead to the break-up of the eurozone; Germany out first.

    I feel a little odd writing this because, while it seems obvious, absolutely no-one seems to be bothering to mention this. The giant green €25 billion elephant in the room is the fact that this deal involves the ICB directly, unilaterally accepting an interest only Irish Government Bond in exchange for more lucrative promissory notes. There has been no approval of this deal by the ECB, and not even a hint that the deal was ever going to be approved.

    Fundamental eurozone rules and positions, which were such an insurmountable blockade to Irish debt relief less than a week ago, seem to have evaporated over the last 96 hours. Nobody seems to be asking how the German’s are going to react to this. More importantly, how are the Spanish, Portuguese and Greeks going to react to it.

    Is it now OK for eurozone governments to create bank resolution corporations, and get their central banks to accept promissory notes followed by government bonds in order to reduce state costs in saving those banks? Is this the new bank resolution scheme for the eurozone and nobody told me? Did the creditor countries and the Bundesbank have a Damascene conversion at Davos, or did somebody slip something into the water for the rest of the delegates?

    Am I just hallucinating here, or is my memory slipping away? Was I just imagining that the Irish authorities could not actually do what they have just done? Not at least without provoking a crisis in the monetary union? Isn’t this the sort of thing that leads to furious rows at board level?

    It seems to me that, just as in 2008, Ireland has done something very, very foolish, in haste, whose reverberations will precipitate the next stage in the european financial crisis.

    • joe hack

      “The ECB hasn’t agreed to this deal.”

      Maths Freak please Enplane that?

    • Eireannach

      I can answer that one for you, MathsFreak.

      We all know the following, but it’s worth restating in clear and simple terms.

      North America and Europe are moving from democracy, where the people determine policy (demos in Greek means ‘people’, of course) to at least a plutocracy (plutos = the wealthy) or possibly even an oligarchy (rule of the few, ie. banking elites).

      If you accept this thesis, then the erstwhile rules in the EU and EZ can be changed at any time.

      This actually happened with the bank bailouts worldwide, in 2007-08. In most juristictions, they were unconstitutional. In the US, they’ve been giving the President more and more unconstitutional powers since the 9/11 attacks. In Ireland, last Wednesday, the Finance Minister was given emergency powers in ‘emergency circumstances’, powers that will, or course, not be rescinded any more than the emergency powers granted to the American President, enacted in the ‘emergency’ of the ‘War on Terror’, have been subsequently rescinded.

      Ireland can break the rules, a few journalists will notice, and all discussion of it will be drowned out in the next crisis. Who talks about the unconstitutional emergency powers granted to the US president? Nobody, because we’re all focused on the next crisis.

      That’s why what the Irish government did got so little press coverage elsewhere in Europe. It’s a bit of plutocratic/oligarchical sleight-of-hand, and we’ll all just focus on the next thing, and it’ll get buried.

      This is what nascent plutocracy/oligarchy is like.

      You and I, all of us, are living it.

      Generations after us will just shrug. I’ll become the new normal, for a century or more. That’s what happened when Greek poli shifted from democracy to oligarchy, it happend when Rome went from a republic to an Empire, we had all these books about the rise of the American Empire post 9/11, now we have oligarchicall carry-on in the Dáil on a Wednesday night.

      • joe hack


        I may be wrong but I don’t think that is what Maths Freak is referring to….

        Maths Freak please Explain the following?

        “The ECB hasn’t agreed to this deal.”

        • Eireannach

          They have not agreed to it, and they never will Joe, not on the record.

          This is what oligarchy looks like.

          So you see, this is precisely what I’m referring to.

          The ECB won’t approve of it, but it won’t be rescinded either.

          • joe hack

            OK i agree that that is what maths-freak is saying but I hope everyone else get to read it too as they will be led to believe otherwise we have brought some attention to the facts.

            He needs to be clearer otherwise it gets lost in the words

      • 5Fingers

        +++1. The world is just too complex for us simple folk to be involved in its running. And now we can control media, what people see, hear and should think. Time to dust off the jack boots.

      • bonbon

        Correct on oligarchy, and Primes inter Pares is their principle. Hard to translated that for some – its easy the British Empire. After all it was Churchill and Mosley who proposed the U.S.E.

        Hav’nt we seen that before?

      • bonbon

        I’m afraid the parochial tourist is out of touch :

        Obama’s Killing Spree Will Be Focus of Brennan Confirmation Hearing

        Usurpation of powers is not a good idea.

    • transitionman

      As they say in Cork NICE ONE
      All they said yet was “It is noted”

    • bonbon

      As long as the banks are not broken up along Glass-Steagall lines, unbelievable theater is the order of the day. It is going to get even more insane, you have seen nothing yet.

      Sane people know the banks must be taken on. Moves are afoot, with obfuscation, but who ever said this was a garden party?

      Keep Glass-Steagall in mind as the various make utter fools of themselves scurrying around. This is what is driving the activity.

  29. joe hack

    Bond = Link, Tie, Connection, Attachment, Friendship, Acquaintance, Relationship

    Bondage = Burden, Oppression, Repression

    Bonding = Bond

  30. dermdod

    Presntly how much has this supposed deal cost us? would I be right in saying a potential “hospital per year” a “motorway per year”?, not one paper or artical I have seen has plainly put it into monitery terms per year, I know its variable but lets say at 1% per year how much does that equate too? (200million etc) why has no media related this in these terms? like 1% is a such a low figure it seems meaningless and thats all part of the media spin, added to this they call it a saving WHY WHY WHY? are we so stupid that we belive adds in general saying things like buy a Sofa and get an Armchair free as if they would give us the Armchair if we did not part with any money in the first place like its a not a factor of the Sofa’s cost, is ot really that dumb? and finally why would any politican actually vote Yes to this deal netagaing any of the usuall selfish reasons or party allegances, why really would any political person do it from any morilistic perspective? becasue im not geting it! and that is not being scarcastic i really would like an explaination.

    • Realist


      Once the principle is admitted that it is duty of government to protect the individual against his own foolishness, no serious objections can be advanced against further encroachments.

      Human Action, pp. 728—29, p. 733

      • bonbon

        The function of Government is best explained by Hamilton who campaigned for a Federal government that would have all the necessary powers to “form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.”

        This flies in the face of populists – a form of Government that needs a different banking system than those governments not so motivated.

    • joe hack

      If most of our politics, press, and public walked any faster their heads would end up in the arsehole of the sheep in front on them.

      Thinking is hard that is why people rarely do it , this is why ponzi schemes work, this is why the people voted for the EU and why they continual endorsed it…
      This why we have not stormed the our states institutions.

      Logic is not a prerequisite to governance of the people the word WHY is not used in governmental department across Ireland, the EU and the world.

      Big brother is not made it is the absent of the WHY that creates it.

      You be careful now, there are people out there who don’t like people who use words like WHY.

  31. joe hack


    A question is always a good start? But thinking is hard that is why people rarely do it.

    If most of our politics, press, and public walked any faster their heads would end up in the arsehole of the sheep in front on them.

    Thinking is hard that is why people rarely do it , this is why ponzi schemes work, this is why the people voted for the EU and why they continual endorsed it…
    This why we have not stormed the our states institutions.

    Logic in not a prerequisite to governance of the people the word WHY is not used in governmental department across Ireland, the EU and the world.

    Big brother is not made it is the absent of the WHY that creates it.

    You be careful now, there are people out there who don’t like people who use word like why.

    • Realist

      Majorities are no less exposed to error and frustration than kings and dictators. That a fact is deemed true by the majority does not prove its truth. That a policy is deemed expedient by the majority does not prove its expediency. The individuals who form the majority are not gods, and their joint conclusions
      are not necessarily godlike.

      Omnipotent Government, p. 47

      • bonbon

        Which is why we have Constitutions and separation of powers as in the US Constitution. Why we have a Preamble above all legislation and executive powers.

        All of this was the breakthrough with the defeat of Empire, the British Empire at Yorktown.

        That Empire is now going for gold, eh, the goal posts.

    • 5Fingers

      What is the anatomy of Solidarity. How does it form and develop and how does it stay together? Figure that one out and maybe something could evolve.

      • joe hack

        ‘What is cut up of unity? How does it form and develop and how does it stay together?’

        I was going to give 5 fingers the 2 fingered solute for his nonsense question but it is not nonsense is it?

        When those in the ‘unities’ are dysfunctional then breaking up a union usually brings about a new start such as in a divorce the devolvement of powers but it is not the easy path and it can encounters pitfalls.

        An understanding is usually reached the important part is the human condition is naturally lazy and needs to be reawakened to itself as it evolves no one said solidarity is a fix or that individualism is a fix but muddling along because we are lazy results in war ask any divorcée.

        ‘Unities’ Apparently there is a plural of the word ‘unity’ on MS Word
        ‘Autonomies’ has a plural too how confusing…

        In short; the answer to cutting up a solidarity and then evolving that dismembered unity to become Autonomous or an Autonomous Unity or even Solidarity of United Autonomies might be found within the MS word dictionary or possibly the synonyms found within it?

        ‘United Autonomies’

      • 5Fingers

        Well, I was hoping more for a High Five than a 2 Finger salute :). My point is there is no solidarity among the disaffected. For me there are 3 outcomes

        1) Leadership evolves with its own media and communications that starts to get people thinking and marching etc.
        2) Leadership evolves to pull services/ strike. What is most feared if Croke Park falls asunder.
        3) Leadership from strife – arising from the 2nd highest private debt burden in the EU.

        3 is where we are headed – could get nasty. 2 is being avoided and we are being made pay for it. and 1 is just pie in the sky.

        • joe hack

          The people voted for this there is a solution we need a referendum to vote ourselves out of the EU it does not hurt to be in control of our own incompetence at least then we can be in control our own weakness at the moment we are been preyed upon.

          We need to default.

          We need to be willing to be master of our own destiny that is the closed we will get to freedom.
          Iceland must be one of the proudest race of people today.

  32. SMOKEY

    So were still fucked, er fecked I mean, fecked!

  33. You put it bluntly David and my partner and I came to the same conclusions quickly

    It was galling listening to reporters, politicians and other insiders on the Vincent Browne show heralding this as a great day for Ireland

    This was an act of class war against ordinary people by a cabal of comfortable traitors. As simple as that.

  34. redriversix

    yep smokey,fecked….

    how is business ?

    • SMOKEY

      Kind of fecked but, that said, I am able to do many things to piece together a living.
      I must give everyone on this site a jar of my killer BBQ sauce. I will be putting a notice up soon for a free jar for anyone who wants one. Biddy Gonzales Fiesta BBQ Sauce!!
      Other than that Im trying to keep a straight face when listening to the drivel on the “victory” for Ireland.
      Some of the sh1t coming out and the back slapping is close to making me want to vomit.
      Thank kee-rist for D-Mac.
      Just finished “The Good Room” and while it is not one of his best, it was a bit too heavy on the main characters life in my humble, it is a must read and he still has the ability to write an interesting and informative book.
      He did use the “get your head around” phrase in it and for that I dont forgive him. But that said, he is a true patriot and great talent. I have always said in mixed company he is one of my heroes and that will never change.

  35. Someone earlier mentioned Christy Moore, and Hell yes, sadly this quote is so very true….”obedient shittakers”….

    So what can be done?

    As RR6 relentlessly stated here, over and over again, it is about you and your family, loved ones, and no one else!

    Friends of mine, “hardcore Irish” in the best meaning of the word, they too leave Ireland behind, and rightly so, to look after themselves and their children where there is a future possible.

    Cowen, Lenihan, Kenny, Noonan, Gilmore and the whole shebang, no one is feeling uncomfortable, none of them are hiding in shame, on the contrary.

    Did I mention I admire Christy Moore?

    Sure do!

    • redriversix

      Hi Georg

      Hope your enjoying your new home..?

      How is Tanka ?

    • From On The Bridge by Christy

      When trouble gets too close to home, my anger turns to fear

      With my eyes turned to the ground I moved along
      I covered up my ears and I held my tongue
      The rain poured down relentlessly upon the picket line
      And the empty words fell from my lips, “Your troubles are not mine”

      We kneel in adoration before effigies of stone
      Our eyes turned to heaven blind to what’s going on

  36. Eireannach

    Aplogies for my wrong numbers in posts above. The result of the vote was:

    113 Yes
    35 No
    17 Absentees or abstentions

    Fine Gael
    66 Yes
    7 No

    29 Yes
    4 No

    Fianna Fáil
    15 Yes
    4 No

    Sinn Féin
    14 No

  37. joe hack

    Enlightened Democraties Don’t Bail Out Banks and Impose Austerity, Icelandic President Grimsson Says

  38. molly

    Life is not going to improve in Ireland unless we change who’s running the show,the current deal that the government has done is a deal that we tge people can get rid of all we need is the proper people running this country and untill this happens we will be let in the darkness .
    It’s time we stepped into the light.

  39. graham b

    maybe it’s time to accept that the world has been playing a big game of monopoly. Ireland didn’t do very well but hey it’s only paper money anyway isn’t it? Finish the old game chuck the board away and buy the cork monopoly set. The one where Anglo Irish don’t exist, the Germans don’t run Europe and Roy Keane is taoiseach

  40. Harper66

    The timing of the pantomime we were treated to on Wednesday night was interesting. It followed the ruling on the Hall case and preceded the vote on the promissory note payment-

    If reports I read the following day are to be believed it seems the “leak” about the liquidation of Irbc came from a source a lot closer to the Dail than Germany.

    I would think the fact that this government would be willing to rush a bill through the Dail and its TDs would be willing to vote on it without having time to read it suggested we are living in a banana republic. The fact that it appears that some TDs had taken too much drink takes us into the territory of embarrassment.

    I was grateful to contribution of one of the guests on Vincent Browne who was able to offer a little light relief by proffering the “informed” comment that the opposition could cost the country 40 billion if they didn’t vote with the government. An informed and non partisan media keeps the politicians in check alright. RTE were treating us to Dinner for schmucks. Were they trying to tell us something?

    So there is now no wriggle room in the banking debt. It is ours and our childrens and were are being told with the usual mix of arrogance and condescension from this government that there must be something wrong with us if we think there is something wrong with passing this debt to our children. It reads like lines from a John B Keane play and no better man than our own minister for finance to play the bull.

    The inaccuracies between what has been claimed to have been achieved and what has actually been achieved by this government will come to light over the coming days and weeks. Holes have already been found in the claim of a reduction of 8% to 3%. The 8% was an effective rate .75% and it appears the effective rate of the new deal is 1%.


    It was in my opinion an act of desperation by the government. After months of bladder about game changers and knowing not to mess with the man from mayo it would become apparent that it was all empty words. This government failed and it was Frankfurts way.

    Still with the new powers this bill grants we may be spared the messy spectacle of democracy in the future.

  41. Harper66

    One glimmer of hope from the whole debacle was the performances of Shane Ross and Stephen Donnelly.

    It is time for a new political party.

  42. redriversix

    Breaking News… their is now confirmed reports that their is Horse-meat in…………..

    Shampoo,toothpaste,petrol,diesel, children’s clothing,sweets , ice cream,ballot papers,news readers, televisions , DVDs ,laptops,political parties,beef,pork, lamb,chicken,fish,bread,pastries,cake, tires,cars,trucks,buses,tarmac,houses,lamps,ovens,schools, cigarettes,ashtrays,porn, alcohol, Holland, France, Germany England Ireland,Iceland, The Bundesbank, Central-bank, Eamon Gilmore’s ears, Dublin Airport, Your couch,cushions,carpet,bed,toilet, Dalkey,Dogs,cats,mice,rats,Books,Donald Trumps wig,Garda uniforms, Miriam o Callaghan’s microphone., Auctioneers,Banks & Bankers nuns,priests & monks,The Vatican,Trains,Planes & Automobiles,Hollywood,Bollywood & Ardmore Studios… Brussels,The E.C.B,Angela Merkel…….etc etc etc

    NOW…….Can we please get on with what is really fucking important,…you.!……yes, YOU !!!!!!

  43. CitizenWhy

    Whoever controls the currency is the Sovereign. All officials, elected or not, are paid servants of the Sovereign. The era of promoting the idea that The People are the Sovereign are over (The People meaning the prosperous classes in a liberal, bourgeois democracy and everyone, to some extent, in a Social Democracy).

    Who is Ireland’s sovereign?

    Remember, the USA had a federal currency for many many years at the same time that states could produce their own currency. This dual system made capital for investment plentiful.

    This is an interesting comment on currency, sovereignty and Europe:


    • Tony Brogan

      “Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes the laws.”
      – Mayer Amschel Rothschild

    • bonbon

      There was a time when the US had 480 different notes. End result of the unlimited swindling this enabled, was a major crash.

      The Credit System of Alexander Hamilton is the answer to the monetarists. It is rarely understood in money circles. Sovereignty means a national credit system constituted as a national bank. This is the key issue.

  44. [...] choose to overlook (or don’t understand). Secondly the poll was taken before the crucial (and divisive) debates and deal in Dáil Éireann on the so-called “promissory n… which will certainly effect any future polling (the Red C / Business Post poll is some two weeks [...]

  45. joe hack

    “”"”"”"”"”So now the legislation is passed do we have a deal with the ECB?

    No, the government’s hope is that the promissory note arrangement can be swapped for the bonds issued through NAMA. This would have the effect of spreading repayment (we would still be repaying the €30.06 billion) over a longer period and proving less burdensome, removing the onerous loss of €3.06 billion ever year to the thin air (As we explained before, the promissory note money is handed to the Central Bank and electronically deleted).

    But all of this needs the approval of the governing council of the ECB (made up of eurozone members’ central bank governors) which is meeting today in Frankfurt and Bloomberg is reporting that some members want to discuss the proposal with their own central banks first and this could prolong the time it takes for a decision to be made.

    So this is not rubber-stamped?

    No. Furthermore there isn’t exactly encouraging noises coming from economists like Karl Whelan, economics professor at UCD, who told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland that what has happened now is that the money owed to the IBRC, which was owed to the Central Bank, has now been “written-off unilaterally by the Dáil”.

    He said the position created now is that NAMA is in debt the ECB. He hypothesised that there could be a decision by the ECB to say that its not happy with the proposal and it is illegal as it amounts to monetary financing (which is printing money) and is illegal under EU treaties.”"”"”"”"”"


  46. bonbon

    The new Anglo Irish bailout saddles the government with 3.1 billion euros in annual interest payments — which amount happens to be the same as what many idiot politicians are saying they will cut, in order to reduce the government debt!

  47. joe hack

    Since the government rushed to liquidate the IRBC we now have a sovereign debt that was never ours this is not good news they have just remortgaged Ireland but now it is written in stone.

    What other country would liquidate a bank at closing time while in a bar at government buildings these were not clever people at work, this was panic.

    Draghi says

    “The governing council took note of the Irish operation,” he sad. “I’m going to refer you to the Irish government and the Irish Central Bank for the details of this operation which was designed and undertaken by the Irish government and the Irish Central Bank.”

  48. redriversix

    Don’t you get it ? NOBODY CARES…..Nobody gives two shits.
    This is Ireland.
    Families,small business,farmers,the unemployed,the sick the elderly, children,underemployed self-employed suffering behind closed doors.

    Suicides,depression ,anxiety,Fear,anger,bitterness, prescribed medication,self medication.Thankfully for Government most people are so dumbed down they can do want they want.

    Husbands blame wife’s , wife’s blame husbands, their children ask them to stop shouting.a daughter asks mummy why daddy is in bed at 2.00 in the afternoon.

    A man hangs by the neck from a tree as crows welcome the dawn from their perch on branches above him…….mothers ringing mobile phones in the middle of the night , hoping a father or son answers……

    Children rush home after school,mummy asleep on the living room floor,empty wine bottles litter the room,her soiled dress clings to her legs like a desperate blanket..”ring Daddy call daddy”..they cry…a sister turns to her brother crying,”daddy is in England,I will take care of you,go upstairs and play your game,Mummy is just tired and misses daddy”

    The phone rings,a brusk voice asks to speak with Mrs Smith ,the young girl replies that “mummy is not available and can she talk a message” ? ,the voice replies “could you ask your mummy to call peter at Bank of Nowhere”…………

    Meanwhile a car parks at another lonely pier,the occupant stares out to sea,wondering how cold it is…..

    Nobody cares…..

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