November 29, 2012

Greece is the word if you want to know where we go from here

Posted in Irish Independent · 230 comments ·

Greece has defaulted again, and the financial markets have shrugged their shoulders. The euro remained unchanged versus the dollar. The Greek stock market even rallied. What does this tell us? It tells us that, as this column has argued again and again, the markets have no memory. Because it improves the overall position of a country, a debt restructuring will be welcomed since it adheres to the golden rule: a broken balance sheet is made better by less debt not more debt.

The media is reporting this as a “deal” in Greece. It is not, it is yet another default from a country where the economy is destroyed and needs to be nursed back to health rather than punished.

The big news for Greece and for us is that the troika has accepted that the country must be healthy in order to pay debt. This logic applies to Ireland too. Before we focus on the implications of the latest Greek default for us, let’s look at the broader picture. And before you think that I am advocating we follow the Greek route, I am not, I am simply pointing out the reality of the global economy and the realpolitik at the centre of Europe.

Effectively, the troika and the Europa group of Greece’s creditors have “agreed” (rather they have had their hands forced) to restructure their bailout loans. Interest rates will be lowered and even deferred to give Greece breathing room.

The crux of the agreement is that Greece’s debt-to-GDP ratio should reach 175pc in 2016 and 124pc in 2020. So 120pc has become the new sustainability.

It has also calculated that this is how capitalism works. In a crisis, the debtor and the creditor suffer, they both lose out and that’s how the system works. It is called co-responsibility.

The eurozone’s economy is in tatters, carrying too much debt, unable to grow. Italian consumer confidence has fallen to a record low this month. It is now at the lowest level since the series began in 1996. The only countries that seem to be keeping their necks above water in Europe are Bulgaria, Romania and Poland. This is hardly a reassuring picture, is it?

As the great deleveraging continues and unpayable debts can’t be paid, it would be surprising if Athens is the only government to choose to face down its creditors.

This all brings us here to Ireland as we continue to squeeze the economy dry, foisting austerity upon austerity and the local economy falters. Next week will be more of the same. We have been at this for five years now and there is no sign of recovery. It is increasingly clear that the Irish domestic economy will not recover as long as the crushing debt burden on the country’s young workers is not lifted.

And as we all buy and sell to each other in the local economy, your spending is actually my income and my spe- nding is your income. And if we all stop spending at the same time and the Government exacerbates this by slashing spending simultaneously, who is spending? And if no one is spending, who is earning? And if no one is earning, who can possibly be saving without earning?

So you see that what sounds good for the individual, such as “I am saving”, is only good for me if others continue to spend; if we all save at the same time, there is no income.

Now as these macro-economic targets that the Government and the troika set themselves are always debt expressed as a percentage of income, if our income is falling because no one is spending, then debt expressed as a percentage of income will be rising, not falling.

This is why there has to be a debt deal for these hundreds of thousands of mortgages underwater. We already have 128,000 mortgages in arrears. This figure is rising consistently. There are 400,000 tracker mortgages which will only get more expensive as interest rates eventually rise over the course of the mortgage. These people will face default when this moment arrives and our banks will be bust again.

Now is the opportunity, when the EU is doing deals all over the place, to propose a big bank solution for Ireland’s mortgage debt. Such a deal would aid the Irish recovery, the EU would have the victory it so craves and ordinary Irish people would have the debt relief they so desperately need.

This would allow the economy to breathe again and it could be made the centrepiece of Ireland’s EU Presidency in the next six months. The EU President sets the EU agenda for the period when it has this role. Let’s not miss this chance.

Otherwise Ireland will become known as the country that never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The Greek deal is an opportunity; let’s not throw it away.

David McWilliams’ new book ‘The Good Room‘ is out now from all bookshops.

  1. Adam Byrne


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    Lemon BonBons Glass Seagull

  4. Lord Jimbo

    A ‘solution’ gradually emerges, that was always going to be the case, but first as much damage as possible had to be done to the social contract, elite power depends on keeping the masses impoverished and on the brink of survival, this has been achieved in spades.

    Germany has emerged top dog, the periphery and increasingly what was the old core (i.e. France, Spain and Italy) is in serious trouble.

    The irony of ironies is economists (not McWilliams) who were champions of the boom are now talking about the disabled, the poor and the impact of the budget on the most disadvantaged – the market may have no memory, it would seem a lot of economists don’t have one either.

  5. John Q. Public

    There should be a ‘debt for equity swap’ union formed and all the mortgage holders in trouble should be in it. They could urge the banks and government to make this happen not just for their good but for the good of the Irish economy as a whole.

    • ThomasFergus

      Hear, hear. Except I think all mortgage holders should be allowed to avail of it, whether in trouble or not. Obviously if you’ve your mortgage nearly cleared, you’re not going to want to hand over a percentage of the ownership of your home to the bank, but there are plenty of us who can still pay our mortgage (for the time being anyway) but feel a certain pointlessness to it when we’re just pouring money into negative equity. I’d gladly give 50% of the ownership of my home to the bank in return for 50% of the debt written down. When I pay off my 50% and I’m clear, the bank still owns 50% so if I want to sell or leave to any children I might have etc, the bank can get 50% of the value.

      • Eireannach

        Debt for equity national plan is a good one. But will enough people be prepared to surrender ownership of their houses?

        Have we reached that point yet?

        One thing is for sure – that is where we’re heading.

        Debt for equity is the way forward – thanks for that!

  6. Grey Fox

    Our leaders do not have the will, to make the right choices for the people so we need to let the people make the right choices themselves,come along tonight to the RED COW MORANS HOTEL at 8pm and take the first steps.

    • cooldude

      I agree and would even suggest that some at the top have been paid off. Look at Noonan’s sudden about turn after just one month in office. He went from an extreme burn the bondholders stance to we must never renege on our debt. A few months later he is jetting off to Bildeburg meetings with the banking and corporate elite. Smells like corruption to me and it would be no surprise if he got a nice little pay off for his sudden about turn.

      At the heart of all of these problems is the nature of our modern debt based monetary system. Any so called solution which doesn’t address this is doomed to fail as our monetary system is designed to enrich the elite bankers who control the central banks and impoverish everyone else. The function of money should be a voluntary medium of exchange between willing parties however this modern monetary system is a compulsary medium of control imposed by central banks for the benefit of their owners. Here is an article which explore the nature of our monetary system and how we can return to a system which benefits the people and not just the elite bankers

      • bonbon

        Party political vote tactics, that’s all. Labour are even worse.

        For them there is no economic principles, no seeking of truth or happiness, merely property.

        It would be goo for voters to instill in themselves a pursuit of happiness, not property as the Tiger’s went astray. Time for principles. Mr. Blair below says its a time of brute power. Choose.

  7. tomahawk

    I get a bit annoyed that economists such as DmcW, Morgan Kelly etc don’t form and lead a public protest group that concerned citizens can support.
    The situation is too serious for economists to simply espouse ‘See I was right and wait another year and I will be even more right’ neatly followed by a promo to buy their ‘good room’

  8. CorkPlasticPaddy

    I agree, wholeheartedly, with everything you’ve stated to date, David, but there’s one fatal flaw and that fatal flaw is continually being perpetuated by the clowns who are running the country, namely the government. They keep on extolling the old mantra time after time by stating that ‘negotiations are ongoing with our partners in Europe and with the troika and any unilateral decision we might take might jeopardise the supply of money that we receive from Europe for the day-to-day running of the country’. In other words ‘they haven’t got a pair of balls between them!’
    They won’t listen to reason! They don’t want to listen to reason! Our Taoiseach and Minister of Finance are more than happy to continue getting patted on the head, as well as being told that they’re the ‘Good Boys’ of Europe, but at what cost to everyone else???
    I was at the Cork Opera House last Sunday night watching you participate in your show, Four Angry Men. I went away and composed an e-mail as Fintan O’Toole had asked and then I sent that e-mail to every T.D. from both government parties and all I got back from them to date where the same old guff about not upsetting our partners in Europe in case we might lose out on the money we get from them. They simply don’t want to listen to reason!!!

  9. Eireannach

    Something has got to be done about the household debt mountain, because at the moment it’s like trying to move the Himalayas with a few shovels and spades.

    Back-breaking work, and utterly futile at the same time.

    But everyone has to be reasonable. For example, suppose households that owe €400,000 on a house worth €200,000 on the market today. Would such a couple be prepared to give the house back to the bank, in exchange for a simple foreclosure with no recourse, where they lose the house but also all of that awful, awful debt burden? The bank would or could let the couple stay on in the house as tenants, especially if they have young children enrolled in schools nearby, jobs nearby and so on.

    As it stands, I think we are only now reaching the point where young couples would accept such an outcome. Up to now, most young couples in negative equity have wanted an outcome where they get to KEEP the house despite the fact they owe €400,000 on it and can never, ever conceivably pay it back (I mean W…T….F??).

    This denial and clinging of the young couples to the outcome of keeping the house reminds me of the Chechen rebels in the Caucasus mountains thinking they can take on the Russians and win – it’s not admirable, it disatrous and ruinous and when you think about it, it stems from a petulant, arrogant denial of the lack of power the young couples (ie. Chechens) have of “winning”.

    If the young couples will admit that the game is up, we can reboot our household balance sheets, marriages and lives.

    But it the young couples still dig their heels in and insist that they will only accept a deal where they keep their epically negative equity albatross houses because they refuse point blank to give up ownership of these turkeys…

    …in that case, all I can say is “the Russians are coming”.

    • Beaver

      As far as i´m aware the Chechens are still fighting and Russia despite its population problems is still sending cannon fodder to Chechnia to let the chechens get in plenty of target practice. I´d expect a result in chechnia eventually when the Russians realise you can´t beat people who value their lives less than their independence. If it worked in Cork it can work in Chechnia.

      • Eireannach

        So to continue the comparison, the homeowners value their massive negative equity mortgages, what, more than their lives?

        F**king ridiculous. You must be Irish, where property is everything, even more important than everything else in life put together.

        • misticmonk

          “Land is the only thing in the world worth working for, worht fighting for, worth dying for, because it’s the only thing that lasts” Gerald O’Hara, Gone with the wind

          “But land is land, and it’s safer than the stocks and bonds of Wall street swindlers” Eugene O’Neill, Long days journey into night.

  10. michaelcoughlan


    I hope a deal is done David. I think it will be in fact. The politicians have just got to be allowed to run their course. Then when reality sets in substantive negotiations will begin.

    I have learned a lot from all the commentators on the site in that regard and thanks to you all.


  11. wills


    Look it,… the economy is divided between two economies.

    The insider economy and the outsider economy.

    The insider economy holds the liquidity levers and pull them up n down depending on what way the insider insiders decide based on all manner of stuff!

    So, the subject matter the article covers makes sense only if one approaches the theme of the article from the stand point that the economy is NOT a fair functional ecosystem of allocation BUT is a centralized crony run from the back cigar rooms of old boy networks RIGGED set up.

    Now I am pretty sure you know this.

    So, it is puzzling why you scribe the article as if you are perplexed by the state of affairs the article covers.

    *scratches head*

    • wills

      *perplexed why D writes article as if he is perplexed when at this stage he surely knows the reasons why on this??*

      • michaelcoughlan


      • Philip

        Excellent point. The whole setup is rigged (Insider/Outsider or Big/Small) – how it became that way is a matter for debate. But we need to start with that premise. This article throws peoples thinking awry by supposing that the Greek deal was something “they” negotiated. It is not. It is merely a further lock down and transfer of ownership painted as a breather. Yes yes Zorba, you can live in your house provided we can sell your children.

  12. gizzy

    Isn’t it horribly ironic that the proposal mooted in some comments would see the Banks who were one of the major players in the economic crash and whose actions have cost people their businesses and jobs and so their ability to repay their mortgages should now not only get bailed out to the tune of 70 billion but now rewarded by being made the biggest landlords and property owners in the State.

  13. Original-Ed

    Knocking down new housing estates in the midlands while at the same time, asking ordinary Germans earning less than eight euros per hour to bail us out is a big ask.
    Greece is a different kettle of fish, unlike us, it doesn’t have to export as tourism is their main activity.

    Of course we could always return to the Dev ‘s ideal Ireland and forget about the outside world.
    Four million people who only buy and sell to each other wouldn’t support much of a lifestyle.

    • gizzy

      We have received almost 70 billion from the ECB and we have put almost 70 billion into the Bnaks who have paid over 70 billion to Bondholders. Whoever the poor Germans are bailing out,in maths terms it’s not us.If I am wrong give me some facts not Upright German and Waster Irish generalisations.

      • Original-Ed

        Fact 1 – The banks we bailed out are Irish Banks that were supposed to be supervised by 400+ Irish public servants in our Central Bank.

        Fact 2 – A very large proportion of ordinary Germans earn less than eight euros per hour, particularly in the East Side.

        Now – who are the wasters?

        • mediator

          What do you mean “Irish Banks” – they’re plc’s – private companies and the fact that they historically originated in Ireland and do most of thier business here doesn’t mean that we should give public monies to them

        • Tony Brogan

          The Irish banks owed lots to the german banks so it was a save the german bank solution in the end.

          • Tony Brogan

            Of course I should have confirmed that it was funded and paid for by the Irish taxpayer–Suckers!!!!!!

        • gizzy

          Who are the waters ?

          Who is being conned is a better question ?

          • gizzy

            sorry meant wasters

          • Original-Ed

            You’re the one that has been conned and by your very own public servants.
            You paid your taxes and all you got in return was spin. – best capatilised Banks etc. etc.
            Please, please can we have some more “Stamp Duty”
            is all they were about.

      • bonbon

        Of course its the banks that are being bailed out. Then the ESM will hand the entire bill to the German taxpayer, and that is finally penetrating the thick fog of opinion.

        “We” got 70 billion – meaning

        We are actually bailing out the entire Inter-Alpha group of banks

        • Tony Brogan

          I think the ESM hands the bill to all the taxpayers of the EU Pro rata. So in effect the taxpayer pays for the bonds raised by the country to contribute to the ESM which are then handed back to those ‘in need’.
          As germany is not ‘in need’ yet, then effectively their tax payers pay. The Irony is that Greek, Italian and Irish, and spanish taxpayers are paying for their own bailout and then again having to repay the money they just loaned to themselves as well as the money they borrowed to contribute to the pot so there was enough for the ESM to lend them in the first place.
          Don’t be confused. simply put. The banks created the problem, the banks exacerbate the problem and all the while they collect interest and fees on the loans that are paid by the taxpayers sweat and toil.
          Three guesses as to who wins.
          right each time
          The moneylenders, the moneylenders, the moneylenders.

          • bonbon

            It is much more “complex” as Mr. Blair puts it simply

            “It is not complex. It really is that simple. I rather like the idealism of Europe’s early founders. But actually this has nothing to do with idealism. It is brutal realpolitik.“

            This at the British Empire’s Chatham House, the RIIA. It is important to avoid the monetary mesmerizing and notice the brutality.

  14. Peter Atkinson

    Just going to fly a kite for the moment.Popular pastime in this country.

    If we follow the logic of our developer comrades surely we could pop over to the courts in the UK hand in our paperwork declare ourselves bankrupt and could just sit it out for a year and we are home and dry.It won’t take much to convince any court of our circumstances as our predicament is well publicised.We have one year of misery (instead of the thirty we are looking at) and we are back up and running clear of all debt.

    I know, a simplistic view, but could any of the contributors with their collective wisdom come up with a game plan for this course of action.Honestly, between promissory notes, bailouts and austerity I have a pain in my arse listening to people chewing over the same old solutions, new and old, knowing all along that none of them are being listened to or entertained.

    We need a legal way out of this mess.Forget about payback its not going to happen.We need to kill the patient to get the inheritance quickly.

    • Philip

      Brilliant! Sure we do abortions the same way. An Irish solution for an Irish problem.

      Maybe we need a few Greeks helping us out as well. I wonder if for a fee we could convince them to do a deal for us.

  15. Norman Speight

    Why not simply stop all house re-possessions until the fiscal situation improves? After all, the banks can’t sell the properties ‘cos no one is buying. So what is the point of repossessing. Two. What happened when countries couldn’t pay their debts last time? Well, other countries actually just wrote them off. Why can’t that happen now? Didn’t cause any ructions then – actually it was praised as being a ‘mature’ attitude. So why not now? Only, the condition should be, don’t come back to borrow again, ‘cos you can’t.
    None of us are dealing in what can be seen as ‘real money’ it’s all paper and promissory notes anyway, like a commodity (isn’t that what Keynes called money?). The only other option is to stop eating, hardly an option. Well, not for the obese.

    • bonbon

      Are you referring to Argentina perhaps? There is a virtual declaration of war right now over a NY judgement this week on vulture funds. Mature? You must be joking.

      Iceland maybe? Britain put them on the terrorism list! Mature, I think not.

      You fail to realize paying promissory notes “in paper” means FG moves to squeeze the life out of the economy. That is very real! Enda gets praised and put on Time Magazine for this!

      And it was Adam Smith who said money was a commodity, repeated in various forms, an utterly ridiculous swindle.

      And a Home Owner protection act is vitally important. First though the banks must be split along Glass-Steagall lines – the damage is to serious.

  16. Tony Brogan

    I am getting thoroughly tired of all the bullshit offered as solutions. too busy looking at the trees to see the forest.

    I repeat. The debt starts with the central banking system imposed on us. NOTHING is going to help until this is faced.

    The central banks must be closed down. PERIOD no ifs, ands and buts.

    All currency currently in existance, issued by the central banks needs to be voided. (Ireland has no national currency so the EURO will do instead).

    Treasury replaces all voided currency one for one with debt free treasury notes. All interest is eliminated by the stroke of a pen.

    The new currency will be a national currency backed by the credit of the state. ((see attachment to Cooldudes post)

    All illegal loans to the banks otherwise called odious debt will be repudiated. (Those banks can be closed as we will not need them). All other debt will be paid by issuance of new Treasury notes.

    No further amounts of currency will be issued by Treasury and the amount of money in circulation will now be frozen in perpetuity.

    People will be allowed to use whatever they wish as money. silver coin can be monetized and allowed to be used as a parallel currency.

    All National debt is eliminated.
    The national budget will be fixed and taxes can now be substantially decreased. In fact it is likely that income tax could be eliminated.

    Those people owing money will now pay off principal only as interest is eliminated with the new currency.

    Problem solved.

    The world will adjust.

    • bonbon

      I’m afraid you are not aware of what you write :

      “No further amounts of currency will be issued by Treasury and the amount of money in circulation will now be frozen in perpetuity.”

      This is the austerity plague all over again – to destroy any recovery, exactly the moves made before FDR outflanked the monetarists. This is what caused the Great depression from a Wall Street Crash in 1929, and what FDR moved decisively and successfully against with the Reconstruction Finance Corp. and the New Deal.

      You are actually proposing Hayek’s “international agency” to “enforce the rules of free trade”, exactly his words. And “frozen in perpetuity” – what is that strange formulation supposed to mean, other than a return to some imagined “stable epoch”? The very antithesis of Hamiltonian banking chartered by the Treasury, the exact repeat of the “hard currency” attack that Andrew Jackson led – A Specie Resumption Act all over again.

      National economies must decide what to do with the common international debt problem. Glass-Steagall is only the essential first step. Reconstruction must be discussed, very large projects put in place with cooperation of like minded neighbors. True global scope instead of fake monetarist “globalization”.

      • Tony Brogan

        Criticize all you like bon bon
        You spout rubbish, not worth wasting time on.

        • bonbon

          The Hapsburg dream is just that. The European Oligarchy do indeed long for that epoch again.

          Mr. Blair does let it all hang out, below, what that is all about.

      • Tony Brogan

        A stable growing economy has a fixed money supply.

        This is in no way “austerity”.

        Hundreds of economies have operated sucessfully in the past with a relatively fixed money supply.

        Expanding the money supply is the recipe for inflation and the mess we have today with a continuously depreciating currency.

        • bonbon

          Those that played the monetarist games of “stability”, are all in the past, archeologically speaking. They all failed to recognize the physical economic principles of potential relative population density, and progress in the productive power of labor – just two. This us usually a cultural failure, like today’y transatlantic. It is critically important to grasp these principles which are real economics and drop the ancient money fascination of those archaelogical specimens.

  17. bonbon

    The Greek “deal” is phony and plans do not apply to Ireland, explicitly said by Noonan and the rest this week.

    Plans to ease Greek Debt burden do not apply to Ireland

    Details of Phony Greek Debt Deal

    No write-off’s before 2016, the IMF will not release any money until the Eurogroup implements a scheme which is supposed to reduce Greece debt from 190% of GDP to 124% by 2020 and 110% by 2022.

    Any scheme that attempts this will kill the economy. So in effect the write-offs can happen with a dead state.

    Do not forget the true nature of the junta – Argentina is practically at war with London based vultures.

    I wonder was FG threatened and caved in?

    • bonbon

      Some quotes from Mr. Blair’s Chatham house speech, which should settle the “complex” matter of empire for those with difficulty grasping the reality of what exactly is going on :

      The EU today, he said: “… is different. Then the rationale was peace. Today it is power.”

      “It is not complex. It really is that simple. I rather like the idealism of Europe’s early founders. But actually this has nothing to do with idealism. It is brutal realpolitik.

  18. Tony Brogan

    I am re-posting the the attachment from Cooldude. It is a must read. It ends with the paragraph below. As I said problem solved.

    “Banks, money and finance must exist to serve humanity, not the other way round. Our enslavement by unlawful debt can be ended overnight with one signature by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It really is that simple!”

    • bonbon

      And Cameron just posted a sworn enemy of Glass-Steagall, Carney of Canadian Banking (and Goldman-Sachs) to the BoE. Cameron is doing everything he can to prevent any regulation of the City.

      The reason is Mr. Blair’s very clear message : Britain must remain a World Power. See his speech above to grasp what is really going on.

      • @bonbon. You’re confused about Keynes, and you’re confused about British realpolitik.

        You’re confusing ‘Britain’ with the incubus/succubus that is the City of London. The City has been rifling the till of the British nation since the BoE was first established. Just like the IFSC is doing to Ireland over there at Canary Dwarf.

        Britain and The City of London are not identical entities. Ireland and the IFSC are not always symbiotic.

        See ‘Isles of Wonder’ by Danny Boyle- an homage to his Irish father disguised as an Olympic opening ceremony. Can’t think of an equivalent Irish response to the crisis. Well, other than the inimitable Mario Rosenstock channeling Joan Burton!

        “Labour! Basically….quiet i’m making an important point!..before the election we said “let’s stand up to Europe. 8 months later: Bingo! We are Europe’s bitch”

        Drop dead comic genius.

        Or, are you one of those ‘the 1st Irish Republic can still be saved by the Soldiers of Destiny assuming the position in the IFSC’ clowns?

        ‘first cultural Taoiseach of the 2nd Irish Republic of 2016. prophet of the 5th Province, all that stuff…mad ‘paddy’ from Brum.

        ps: that last line should smoke Eireannach out with his sawn-off. Gosh…scary….NOT!

      • bonbon

        Ye are confused, reason has departed the stable. Britain is basically London / Wall Street. The UK is not and can claim nation state status at some point. Yes the BoE has been looting the UK and the planet, and the British East Indie Company did run Britain, not the Monarchy.

        Ireland perfectly understood this – Arthur Griffith knew exactly the powers and principles he faced. We have that Republican tradition. FF and FG are parties, Sinn Fein is a national composition. The difference is apparent.

        FF and FG with their IFSC basically served London, the Empire. Obama too. Mr. Blair does have reason to grin.

        • Noted. Not confused at all. But, once again, you are.

          Britain is a geographical island, not a political concept. Other than that, this is your usual Obama Blair Empire spiel which I still can’t parse without getting a headache. Obama sent back Churchill’s bust, he has very complex emotions about British crimes in Kenya: really can’t see where you get the idea he’s some sort of stooge of any supposed British Empire.

          The Americans extracted a high price for eventually supporting the Brits in WW11, the ‘exorbitant privilege’ or whatever de Galle called the refusal to offer gold to settle trade debts. And, as a result of those events in 1971: “we are where we are”, etc. Really can’t see how the ‘British Empire’ still runs the world. In a few years the £ won’t even be part of the SDR reserve funds of the IMF. Very odd ideas you have, but fun!

          Merry Xmas.

    • bonbon

      This ukcolumn post is indeed very interesting. One error I noticed was the Greenback policy dying with Lincoln :
      The Specie Payment Resumption Act

      is what ended that policy and caused the Long Depression.

      It is a sign of the times that the ukcolumn chooses war as the background of the article. What a contrast to Mr. Blair’s imperial outburst above.

      Lincoln’s Greenback was Hamiltonian in action.

      There was a massive Reconstruction after the Civil War, and in the Great Depression. An even more massive one is needed now. Greenback’s might be part of this. But first Glass-Steagall, FDR’s platform jump and unique contribution.

      • Tony Brogan

        Lincoln Greenback was the very antithisis of the Hamilton Central bank debt based private bankers script.
        Hamilton bank was no different to and a precursor to the insidious Federeal reserve and all the central banks we have today.
        Hamiton was a Rothschild, London banking interest, agent. He married a Rothschild if I recall correctly.

        • bonbon

          Strange “logic” there. All Americans were British subjects before things were changed in 1783 – in a country of immigrants after all. It was Andrew Jackson (hard money direct democracy idol) who wrecked the US National Bank.

          The FED was Teddy Roosevelt’s Anglophile coterie attempt to put the US back in the British fold – the result is, well, obvious. Actually the FED is a result of the Specie Resumption Act (bullion logic) causing the Long Depression

          Now we have Mr. Tony Blair at Chatham House (Royal Institute of International Affairs in case some have difficulty with this “complex” subject), showing what the EU is all about.

          It is time to reject yet again the British Empire, applying Hamilton’s Public Credit method on a vast scale in cooperating sovereign nations.

          We have graduated!

      • Tony Brogan

        So after we corrected the one error all else was agreeable then bon bon. congratulations, sincerely, you have come a long way in a short time.
        We close the central bank and issue currency debt free from treasury. Revoke the odious debt and replace all fiat currency one for one with treasury notes or equivilent, and pay off the rest of the national debt, no requirement for any income tax. And people with more money to spend will do what david McWilliams want as my spending is his income. (hopes I’ll buy the good room).
        We will not care about the bond market as we will have no need to borrow.
        As the man says , it can be done with a stroke of a pen tomorrow.
        Congratulations, problem solved, except for the assination attempt by banking agents or a drone attack on my house by O’bama. (Half joking only)

        • bonbon

          You have actually created more errors, not corrected any at all. The Reconstruction urgently necessary on a massive scale with huge projects (not for weak nerves) like NAWAPA 21, Transaqual, Aral, Arctic Shipping, Gobi, Sud Canal, Eurasian Landbridge, and much more food production, and energy generation, will benefit immensly from Hamiltonian Credit methds applied on a grand scale in Republican style.

          It is time to take that semester on the Triple Curve to clear the monetarist fascination with currencies.

          It is time to grasp this economic principle (it cannot be weighed in bullion).

  19. paddythepig

    People are spending. They are just spending less than before, which is a good thing. A return to the excessive throwaway spending of yesteryear is not sustainable or desirable. Instead of focusing on how much people are buying, the article should instead focus on how much Irish people are producing and making that people around the world want to buy.

  20. ME

    Regarding “Debt for Equity” – don’t forget the elite of the elite want to own your houses. Is this playing into their hands? The Big Banks are all being bailed out (which is the name of the game, read “The Creature from Jekyll Island, A second look at the Federal Reserve” by G. Edward Griffin), which is really their debts being forgiven, paid for by us, – the tax payers. Rather than hand-over some ownership of your house to the banks, isn’t a better plan, to have “debt forgiveness” for – we the people? After all the banks debts are being forgiven. What about a bit of fairness? Apparently it used to be done in some Countries, long ago. I agree with Tony Brogan.

  21. Philip

    Nursing Greece back to health will require a lot more than playing with their debt. They have run into a developmental wall. Similar to Ireland, they are infected with a dependency culture of handouts which is not backed up with solid wealth creation. Frankly banks or tinkering with the monetary structure of the nation will do nothing.

    To be sure, banks and financial rigging to offset losses merely reinforces the sad fact that sooner or later money goes back to its ultomate owners. It is grim for those caught in it.

    So how do we get to validly “own” money? An economy that works. A physical engine with a texture from small to large enterprise pulling roughly together under a set of guidelines which have visible short to medium term gains. And this is where it all goes wrong. Skin in the game. Banks and big players will want your skin in there or a securitised version of it. And they know they have you cos they can capitalise as necessary. There is nowhere else to go. Or at least that os how we are schooled.

    Skin in the game folks. Of course the markets have no memory. Why should they? Their skin was never at stake. Theirs is to use everyone elses. That is the problem and it explains investment by the disinterested should always be viewed as a matter of national security.

  22. george

    Does anyone really think, that anything of a transcendental nature is going to take place, with the Government we have in charge, during the Irish Presidency of the EU, ?
    I don’t think so. The Irish Presidency and the Gathering, are going to be another very well choreographed, and very costly PR exercise; and its results blown out of proportion to satisfy the ego of some, and the infantile mentality of others.
    Greece is going nowhere, even if all those billions are thrown out of the window. Its people will still suffer all the horrible consequences, of this brand of speculative and merciless capitalism, where Governments don’t set the limits, to the greed of relative few groups of very powerful and unscrupulous vulchers, over the basic needs of the most. And the same will happen to us citizens of this Republic, and the rest of the population of Europe, unless we’ll find a way that will help us, in combating the evil and rotten plans, that the Elites and most of the servile Political Class, want to implement.
    I don’t care if I am unpopular, but it seems outrageous that an employer of the capabilities of Sean Quinn, a brilliant entrepreneur, and a trusty employer, is behind bars; while the politicians and top civil servants, that cost us billions of euro, through their utter incompetence, are out there enjoying their pensions and lump sums.
    Who can think that this Government, who so appallingly bad, managed the aftermath of Savita’s death, is capable of doing anything good? I don’t!

  23. molly

    The kenny government and the policies they are
    Following are way of the mark compared with Greece we are weak and limp along in the hope of what we can leech of the back of someone else,why why why?
    To the gambler and the alcoholic who in a sence where given more and more drink or money so they could self destruct who’s to blame or should the blame be shared .
    With that in mind the pain we are going through is not shared and I ask myself who’s to blame for this the government are ,they have to be .
    What’s going to happen when the budget comes out,I hope it’s the turning point in this country and the people wake up and stop being made fools of.

  24. Beaver

    The key point is in the fourth last paragraph.

    ´´400,000 tracker mortgages which will only get more expensive as interest rates eventually rise´´.

    In construction the greatest number of bankruptcies don´t occur in the collapse but in the rising economy which follows when contractors who price work at recession prices find themselves carrying it out for higher costs as their workforce and subcontractors start to find better rates elsewhere in a rising economy.

    So far interest only tracker mortgages, some as low as 1,25% have kept a lot of peoples heads above water in this country. Just like the contractors, the eventual rise in interest rates to match more normal economic conditions in the Eurozone as a whole, will lead to many tracker holders throwing in the towel after years of living day to day on low rates.

    We havent seen anything yet as far as house price falls and forelosures are concerned.

  25. Clarence Beeks

    Don’t be silly David, during our 6 months of the presidency the rest of the EU and the world will be shown only into “the good room”!!!

    • Philip


      Although, I cannot help feeling that in this consumer driven global economy of ours is it really any different elsewhere. There is gross subservience to elites at a level today that only the empires and kingdoms of yesteryear could only snatch a glimpse of.

    • Dorothy Jones

      Spot On:} Cue the fleet of State cars to ferry visitors to Ireland’s most expensive house : Farmleigh. Crisis in Ireland?? No crisis here so!

  26. Pat Flannery


    You seem to have abandoned your call for a debt-for-equity swap. I certainly hope so. You say here: “This is why there has to be a debt deal for these hundreds of thousands of mortgages underwater.” I notice that you called it a “debt deal” but refrained from calling it a “debt-for-equity” deal.

    Your previous suggestion was a clever but futile way of avoiding the “co-responsibility” you claim to advocate. Taking part-ownership of a person’s house is hardly “co-responsibility”, it is in fact a “taking”.

    I hope you have seen the futility of your previous suggestion and have now embraced the imperative of a debt write-down by the banks’ bond hoders. This is what Merkel and the Germans have ben calling for all along and is exactly what London and the bond markets do not want.

    • Beaver

      Disagree. Taking part ownership of a house in negative equity is a bank adopting part of your loan as a lesson to it that there are reasons why good banks take an interest in their borrowers ability to pay. Debt writeoffs will punish the bank (and the taxpayers who owns them) and reward the borrower.Only fair solution is taking part ownership, ideally 50% or else a non-recourse hand back of the property.

  27. Philip

    As I mentioned many times before, a full 100% debt wipeout 100% forgiveness (were it offered) will only be a temporary solution. The root cause will come back to bring it back to where it was before in double quick time.

    A debt for equity swap or any rescheduling is just more of the same but with long term strings attached to 3rd parties who have no real interest in your welfare. In this, all you do is size your debt servicing machine to a percentage of your economy.

    It is an inevitable consequence that if the root cause of all this mess is not addressed, we will be returning AGAIN to make the debt servicing engine a bigger proportion of the economy. That’s all we see going on in Greece and it has been happening elsewhere too. In classic control theory, this is negative feedback and it takes very little intelligence to realize the system will wind down to zero.

    Now, we can bleat on about bad banks and bad government and thieving ba$tards left right and centre, but it all comes down to one salient little fact…is the country showing sustained viability. By this I mean, can it really show how it has a sufficient economy to pay its way 100%. For Greece and probably a lot of other countries the answer is NO. Indeed, even if Greek debt was zero…the answer would still be NO. So, screwing around with debt restructuring etc etc will do nothing. Its not like a real business where a bit of up front cash is needed to develop for something specific. Countries do not work like that and if they did, they are not democracies.

    Unless Greece and Ireland and others pay attention to the fabric of their economy and how it can be self sustainable from first priciples (i.e. no initial debt), we are wasting our time. I go further, IF we did pay attention to the economic structure, banks start to work normally – it is not the other way round as many economists profoundly believe.

    Banks, Securitization, Gold … legal tender and how it is used to communicate contract and obligation is merely a tool. It can be dangerous stuff. But with an increasingly un-self-sustaining economy, it is petrol on a fire…a lot of waste heat and no work.

    • transitionman

      As I read through this blog I am reminded of the story I read recently about six
      blind men meeting an elephant

      Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, “Hey, there is an elephant in the village today.”

They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, “Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway.”

      All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant.

”Hey, the elephant is a pillar,” said the first man who touched his leg.


”Oh, no! it is like a rope,” said the second man who touched the tail.

      “Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree,” said the third man who touched the trunk of the elephant.

      “It is like a big hand fan” said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.


”It is like a huge wall,” said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.

      “It is like a solid pipe,” Said the sixth man who touched the tusk of the elephant.


They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, “What is the matter?”

      They said, “We cannot agree to what the elephant is like.” Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like. The wise man calmly explained to them, “All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said.”

      “Oh!” everyone said. There was no more fight. They felt happy that they were all right.

      Maybe bold radical suggestions can drive the endless conversation forward.
      Base assumptions agreed by many blind men here DC below summarises it well.
      Add in a few more such as Tony Brogans correct take on central banks and the creation of money. The next ingredients I regularly provide Climate Change and decline in supply of cheap energy supplies.
      Lemass set up the first duty free zonein the world. Lets set up the first “bank free zone”. Use Origional Eds idea
      Of course we could always return to the Dev ‘s ideal Ireland and forget about the outside world.
      Four million people who only buy and sell to each other wouldn’t support much of a lifestyle.

      Who needs a lifestyle of giving up to 40% of your income to banks. Be left with no euro left over?
      Who says we could not trade with the outside world. China and Russia are leading the way with bilateral agreements for trade instead of paper / electronic US dollars.

      In new state of emergency we decide to write off all private household debt.
      Yes the ATMs dont have any money either.

      The reset button is hit for public service pay and social welfare.70 % of Govt income is no longer available.
      We can tinker with ideas like universal wage in alternative currency for all.
      Everyone will take an anti greed pill in the greater good.
      Everyone works no one that can will be paid to do nothing. Lots of work but no jobs. Lots of professions politicians bankers will be returned to occupations such as teaching.
      GDP will now be known as survival index. The system cannot be described with letters ism at end of it.

      For me it beats the path we are on to two tier haves and have nots.
      No one will vote for it.
      But then one reads how effective our representative democracy. See Stephen Donnelly piece in last sundays indo.Look at the Prime time on avg 250000/ yr on parish pumping votes.
      Unless you change your direction you will get to the destination of the path you are on.
      To pharaphrase this article
      Greece is the word if you want to know where we go from here

    • bonbon

      This why the popular approach to economics is problematic. A threefold action is underway and a threefold simultaneous approach is needed, all in this Metaphor

      You will find the physical economic fabric there as well as the monetary and financial aggregates and the shock wave.

      The simplistic popularist single approach to the banking problem is a huge diversion from the deadly breakdown going on “silently”. This is where most text-book economics fails us.

      This is a multiply-connected scientific principle best grasped by metaphor. It is the denial of this essential human capacity to understand and creatively act that disgusts people about economics.

  28. DC

    The OECD had a handle on the problem last january.

    “Thorough Structural Reform” in a nutshell.

    Has anything changed since, it seems to me that delusion is the key to the crisis and its continuance.

    Future Growth – Delusional

    Debt Sustainability – Delusional.

    Reduce Unemployment – Delusional.

    ZIPR is sustainable – Delusional.

    Bankers are moral ethical and responsible – Delusional.

    Societal Breakdown is a scare story – Delusional.

    Going back to the markets is aspirational and benefical – Delusional.

    We are served well by politicans who understand the real economic scenario. – Delusional.

    All the above are achievable – but only by reform, across all sectors.

  29. Tony Brogan

    Notes on the BIS
    The The BIS is central bank to all major central banks in the world
    It is privately owned by central banks themselves, most of whom are also private.
    It was founded under questionable circumstances by questionable people

    It is accountable to no one, especially government bodies

    It operates in complete secrecy and is inviolable

    Movement of money is obscured and hidden when routed through the BIS

    The BIS is targeting regional currency blocks and ultimately, a global currency

    It has been hugely successful at building the New International Economic Order, along with its attendant initiatives on global governance. Bank of International settlement
    This id the central Bank for all Central Banks.
    It is privately owned as are most Central banks

    To read a detailed account of this private institution that is so private all members have diplomatiuc immunity. If we do not deal with getting rid of the central banking organization all else is in vain.

    give me your feedback when you have read this. no feedback means you are not bothered to solve any problem. That includes yourself, David McWilliams, sir.

    • Philip

      So, how do you take it down? Remember, all it needs is a law forbidding the possession of gold or any other form of action which would compromise subjugation to the BIS.

      As John Perkins observed: “Every person on earth is connected like never before, through the Internet and cell phones. Most of us have come to understand that we are perched on a shore that is threatened by a mounting wave of economic and environmental disaster. ”

      Maybe tis time for the 2 fingered salute to this stupid plastic world which is being forced on us by a gluttonous few and idiotcally championed by acolyte economists and foolish politicians. Maybe we need to shrug off own comforts and ensure that of others are catered to first.

      • transitionman

        Now you are talking give them the 2 fingers stop playing their game. Watch George Carlin explain it all in 3 mins. You aint in the club.I said it here long time ago do a Gandhi an Irish boycott STOP PAYING stop the game.
        It will gain momentum House hold Tax, Commercial Rates, Mortgages
        Consume=- buy (goods or services).
        - use up (a resource) : these machines consume 5 percent of the natural gas in the U.S.
        - (esp. of a fire) completely destroy : the fire spread rapidly, consuming many homes.
        - (usu. be consumed) (of a feeling) absorb all of the attention and energy
        The definition of the economic requirement for growth?? COMPLETELY DESTROY

        • Adam Byrne

          What he says about the elites is true, but it’s not going to change because most people are THICK, IGNORANT and LAZY and no matter what you do they will NEVER wake up. That’s why I prefer to just live my own life properly rather than trying to change the THICKOS.

      • Tony Brogan

        I do not understand your questions philip

        The central bank is a creation of the government, it can be voided.
        nothing stopping the issuance of treasury notes.
        Issuue as exchange for fiat and deliver the fiat back to the central bank. Debt based money redeamed pays off the debt.
        authorise the issuance of silver coin as an alternative. another pen stroke. Have no coins ? use those in existance like millions of silver maple leafs’
        Why would the government forbid the possession of gold. That is a central bank trick.
        Debit cards could continue as before. Credit card maybe not.If a bank will accept treasury notes as payment then no problem.
        all a government has to do is to honour in payment of debt its own notes and banks will be happy.
        They deal in salt spring Island notes and Kilkenny marbles.
        Just kick the bankers out of town , they have us in the biggest con game ever foisted on their bluff.
        bloody hell, I wish I had the pen and was in a place to exercise the authority to use it to do so.

        • Philip

          You would not be let.

          You would be locked up.

          These are worrying times

          • Tony Brogan

            These times will be worse if we do nothing.
            There will be blood on the streets if there is no change
            When the people finally awaken there will be restaint through marshall law
            Better the change earlier, now, before the noose tightens
            Change can be peaceful , swift , and effective if done politically.
            Look at DDI as a way to open the door.
            The constitution allows this to happen.
            Education is the key.
            An outlook that sees a positive resolution is required.
            The internet is the key to education of the people that can not be stopped by the PTB.

            What the Mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve!!

            They can lock up some people, some times, but they can not lock up all of the people all of the time.

            Education of the people is the key. Internet is the means. DMW provides a platform. He treads a narrow path, on a steep slope, with danger lurking either side. I salute his enterprise while disagreeing with some of his positions. He is a rare man, who puts his thoughts on display for public criticism, and allows us the same latitude.David still needs to be educated on the dangers and complicity of the central banking system to our economic and social conditions. He was raised in the central banking family and is still loyal to the bloodlines. It is to be expected. In time he will see the truth. Let us hope it is sooner rather than later.
            Thought provoking observations Philip, keep posting.

            You are correct these are worrying times. Nil Desperandum.

          • Adam Byrne

            The Internet and Education WOULD be key Tony, if the vast majority of people were interested in anything other than The X-Factor and Farmville.

          • Tony Brogan

            True Adam but it is the medium with the greatest chance for getting out the message.
            Less and less watch the telly or read the paper.
            more are on the net.
            Must cast the “net” to get the “fish”!

          • bonbon

            See below my post on the “intellectual crisis in Ireland identified by President Michael D.

            There is a reason for it other than the usual cliche’s (which themselves are an indicator).

    • bonbon

      The BIS was formed to handle the Versailles War Debt foisted on Germany, repayable in gold. The chief of that bank was Hjalmar Schacht. Hitler’s Economics Minister that produced the labor camps (KZ’s). Schachtian economics is the essence of austerity. Schacht was not interrogated at the Nürnberg Tribunal. WWI was prepared for years in advance by King Edward VII, and Bismarck warned on his removal that a 7-Year war was about to be started. He fully understood the British Empire’s methods, as his successor Wilhelm did not (nephew of King Edward).

      Today we have Mr. Blair at the Royal Institute of International Affairs (Chatham House) showing the true nature of this drive. The BIS is a subsidiary of that enterprise now as then. Its derivative publications (6 months in arrears) were the warning bell of the crash. It does know what is going on.

      Now you have your “feedback”.

  30. Tony Brogan

    The Central Bank in Ireland is supposed to handle monetary policy but also handles regulatory requirement.
    A: it can’t administer monetary policy because of the EURO and is reduced to acting as a printer of currency
    B: I is also the regulator of financial matters which places it in a clear conflict of interest. it has been delinquent in its operation.
    C: It is overstaffed and overpaid being one of the most expensive opwerations in a ny government in the world. The epitome of waster.

    This seriously reinforces my claim to close the central bank, and fire the perticipants who are demonstrably incompetant.

    • You can’t fire bankers pal. They are protected.
      It’s obvious.
      Question is by whom.

      • Tony Brogan

        Protected by the politicians!!
        and by their own real hit men.
        Kennedy was doing the above, the bill was signed, Treasury bills were printed, they were even silver backed, and they killed him. probably 3 gunmen.
        johnson revoked the bill the same day!
        a big enough crowd outside dame street would fire them.
        Once the people understand the system they will not stand for it any further.It will give focus to there rage.

        • cooldude

          Correct on vice president Johnson. The very night JFK was murdered Johnson revoked Executive Order 1110 under which Treasury was entitled to issue interest free money free from the clutches of the banker owned federal reserve. This is a fact and is a clear pointer to the real perpetrators of JFK’s murder. They don’t like anyone messing with their cosy little money creation ponzi scheme. Think about it these guys can create LIMITLESS amounts of digitized crap that we call money in order to create booms and more importantly busts and come in afterwards and buy the items of real worth with more digitally created crap after being bailed out by us gobshite taxpayers. Nice work if you can get it. Time to take the money creation franchise off these criminals before we are all their debt slaves.

          • bonbon

            And it is high time to check out Permindex Corp – Clay Shaw. The perceived threat and the lurch to murder JFK,MLK, Robert, stems from a far more fundamental imperial “instinct”. Naivete is the most dangerous option in the long sweep of history. It may express itself in “monetarism”, but it is much deeper that the bullion gang want us to know. Time to be serious about cultural and economic principles.

          • Adam Byrne


        • “Once the people understand the system”

          The information has been public for decades and the people still don’t want to know

  31. According to the media this week nothing happened and all is warm and cotton wooly in old Ireland. As in The Quiet Man everything is turning out mighty grand in time for xmas in this extremely holy fairy land where we don’t have childline and battered woman being turned into the streets in their thousands

    I will watch the quiet man this year to remind myself of the art of absurdity

    Ryan someone addressed the nation that the Toy Show is a very important ingredient in the national psyche. I think he must be a master of black comedy or a genius at peppering over the cracks. A useful idiot

    There were no headlines of any significance whatsoever. The comment sections on main stream media sites are getting more infantile and laughable by the day and they are dumbing down as if they could get any dumber. Instead of half serious topics they are now feeding even more nonsense that would be of interest to morons. Since O’Brien took over they have been moronised. The whole lot of them who profess to be professional journalists do more damage than good

    If you don’t buy this and prefer to get your news elsewhere they can’t handle you. That is why DMW is a pussy and a why he is a well paid insider

    If he wasn’t safe they would drum him out in ten seconds flat.

    • whatamess

      you seem to have DMW on some kinda pedestal … “well paid insider” – you’re jealous of his success it sounds to me …. sure you’re frustrated with his poor articles for the last 3 or 4 weeks , but the last month aside , he generally delivers enlightening/thought provoking articles.
      you want DMW to be a Max Keiser or Alex Jones it seems…then switch over pal coz DMW is DMW …he won’t be what you aspire for him to be ..I’m not looking for him to be the next Martin Luther King ….Are You ?…

      ..and the root of all this name calling is jealousy …tear him down!how dare he have notions above his station…i see SO much of it nowadays and it’s an ugly trait and massively counter-productive and a soul guilt …a big bag of fuckin bricks..just learn how to set it down!

      Transitionman’s suggestion above that “Everyone will take an anti greed pill for the greater good” …If such a pill was real,it’d solve SO many problems,but that’s where the trouble comes into paradise isn’t it …it ain’t real and people in Ireland won’t allow themselves be sold a forgiveness ‘deal’of some description…won’t happen coz Jack next door may benefit more than me and I’M MORE DESERVING …la la la la la…
      and with NO MASSIVE WRITEDOWN OF PERSONAL DEBT or bankruptcy made alot less punitive, this
      sinking ship will sink to the bottom rapid…..

      and as for “drum beating” , from where i sit anyway, DMW is doing just fine

  32. David,

    The main reason why there’s less money during a recession is that when people repay their loans to banks the money no longer exists.

    The bank lowers the borrower’s current account and lowers the borrower’d debt to them. No-one else’s current account goes up and the money just does not exist anymore.

    I agree that as well as this people saving rather than spending can make it seem like there’s less money during as recession but it’s of far less significance.

    It’s explained in detail in our document ‘How Banks Create and Destroy Money’ which can be downloaded from :

    It’s absolutely essential that we all understand the system we’re dealing with, especially our economists.

    • Morning Paul,

      what I do not grasp is this excpert from your site is this paragraph:

      A portion of the national debt is owed to the central bank essentially as an accounting procedure and we’d simply cancel this debt. The rest would be gradually repaid through the new money that is created by the central bank.

      National debt is not only owed to our central bank, but further to ECB and IMF, as well as hedgefunds and other private gamblers.

      Your argument about accounting procedure is true as well concerening our ECB owed national debt.

      In my world, you would cancel 1. CBoI 2. ECB 3. IMF (2. and 3. odious debts) and tell them to shove it where the sun does not shine.

      A system where the entire regulatory framework has failed, and has failed deliberately, turning a blind eye being paid handsomely for just that, a legal system that provided the framework for none accountability, and continues to do so even worse now (ESM etc.), these both conditions alone are enough to understand that a subtle and slow process change from within will not work.

      The banking lobbies and their powers, this is our reality, as is the regulatory system, both interlinked.

      Last but not least, they created a Financial Bermuda Triangle with the a) FISCAL COMPACT b) ESM and c) TARGET 2 that sucks the life not only out of economies but democracy, and serves only one prupose, to protect the financial capitalist industry, the rest is collateral damage.

      It is this Faustian pact between states and banks, a pact against the people of our nations, a declaration of war against every worker and their families, and it is them who can change this, no one else.

      • Tony Brogan

        good again Georg.
        Anyone under the total elctronic system can becut off from the money supply and reduced to beggary, and or, barter.
        Otherwise the system envisaged, using solid currency, would work like a charm!!

      • transitionman

        Georg good to see you posting again. I did work 2 yrs ago on using open source software to enable phones to be used in Cork LETS.A few grand would have got it going. The technology is already there. I would add that phones and combination of PPNS number could enable direct democratic participation. The dates of 2020 in the article are wrong.
        Adam people are not Stupid and disinterested. They are in a carefully crafted state of fear.
        The puppeteers planned this. They know Collapse will be rife with unimaginable horrors, however the pre-end period will be filled with unprecedented opportunities for profit.

        • Adam Byrne

          I am not in a ‘state of fear’ transitionman, and you don’t sound like you are either. I’m nobody’s puppet on a string – what makes me/you/us different?

        • bonbon

          As FDR said in the 1930′s the only thing to fear is fear itself, that carefully crafted fear of the unknown. Then they Hamlet-out – Shakespeare put it perfectly :
          But that the dread of something after death,
          The undiscovere’d country, from whose bourn
          No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
          And makes us rather bear those ills we have
          Than fly to others that we know not of
          Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
          And thus the native hue of resolution
          Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
          And enterprises of great pitch and moment
          With this regard their currents turn awry
          And lose the name of action.

          So economics and politics becomes a fear-of-facts orgy stuck with no solution or resolution. I believe FDR took that head on.
          Glass-Steagall is about opening the door to the future, from which none return.

  33. Adam Byrne

    I cannot over-emphasis my disdain for STUPID, IGNORANT and LAZY people but unfortunately we are surrounded by them. They are legion.

  34. Adam Byrne

    Nice podcast – what about John Gray for Kilkenomics David?

    • Tony Brogan

      Don’t think Mr Gray has a clue about economics and anyone who follows his line will not have a clue either. If he has a clue then he is a lier. If a lier there is an ulterior motive to cover the tracks and that makes him an insider.
      Blaming capitalism for the current ills is demonstrating ignorance or guile that is dangerous.
      It is a pet theme of the PTB to spread this myth as a smoke screen to cover their cronyism or current brand of facsism.
      We have not had any real capitalism for nigh on a 100 years and especially since we were off the remnants of the gold standard in 1971.

      • Adam Byrne

        Hohoho! You’ve been talking to Mr. bonbon too long Tony, it’s starting to rub off!

        • Tony Brogan

          Just look at what Grey says.

        • Tony Brogan

          Something useful for you to read Adam. It will fill your mind with productive thought rather than irrelivant comment.

          • Adam Byrne

            I read it Tony; There’s not much to it but I like the parts about the slave processing center (passport office) and the entrepreneurial Panamanians. I also think the ‘War on Drugs’ is ridiculous.

            The guy is obviously not a ‘sovereignist’ like you.

            Like me, he thinks passports and borders are the ultimate insult to so-called ‘free men’.

            About John Gray, all he’s saying is Marx predicted that Capitalism would create ever larger booms and busts and would almost destroy itself.

            Capitalism is “creative destruction” and no one can deny that “it’s been prodigiously productive” and practically anyone who is alive in Britain today has a higher real income than they would have had, if Capitalism had never existed.

            You do yourself a disservice accusing the man of things he did not say – it’s very bonbonesque, not that Mr. bonbon is always wrong – I read his short posts which are sometimes insightful, but delete his Glass Seagull and copy and pasted posts – the same goes for you and your PM obsession.

            I’m not even saying both of you are wrong but you’ve done it to death by now and people are bored.

            Wishing for a situation where there are no central banks and we have gold based money is all very well but you might as well live in the real world.

            Repeating it a million times is not going to make it happen.

            David often makes reference to this piece of dialogue from an American TV show:

            ‘You want it to be one way.”

            ‘‘Man, stop.”

            “[But] it’s the other way.”

            The above dialogue occurs in season four of The Wire — the HBO crime series based in Baltimore, Maryland.

            Marlo Stanfield, a notoriously vicious drug dealer, walks into what Americans call a convenience store.
            By this he means that life is based on facts, not on wishful thinking”

            Similarly, John Gray is talking about Capitalism as it is actually experienced Tony (albeit a perverted form, subject to the parasitic influence of the financial sector) and not the idealised form that you (and probably I) would like to experience.

            “The uncertainty in which we must live is being worsened by policies devised to deal with the financial crisis” says Gray

            - and who devised those policies? The very same people (or cadre of people) who created the crisis in the first place.

            That is NOT Real Capitalism as referenced by your mate Jeff Berwick.

            I’m all for Capitalism Tony and I’m “always ready to try something new” (in fact, I have a new and very exciting business starting tomorrow – in Panama of all places! – wish me luck!) but the current situation where “the market permeates every corner of life” and “traditional values are dysfunctional” is not the way to go.

            Let me be clear about this though – I, myself CAN handle dysfunction and market permeation, I haven’t got a problem with it, I’m not at risk of “ending up on the scrapheap” and I like having an “experimental and provisional” life – but the point I’m making is most people CAN’T and that’s why society is in a mess and getting worse due to the way it’s structured.

            “But it won’t be the end of the world, or even of Capitalism” says Gray.

            “Whatever happens, we are still going to have to live with the mercurial energy that the market has released” (Good)

            You obviously didn’t listen to the podcast properly and that’s a pity Tony. You should have taken the time, rather than indulging in 10,000 “this is the way I want the world to be”, utterly irrelevant (because it won’t happen) PM comments.

            Have a good time in A Coruna.

          • bonbon

            I hope its not yet another ponzi scheme in Central America? Drugs are also very big business there and George Soros’s Open Society drug legalization moves everywhere can only benefit the banks who are actually living on laundered drug money.

          • Adam Byrne

            All clean and above board, I give you my word Mr. bonbon.

          • Tony Brogan

            That is the point Adam
            Some put the blame where it is not warranted, and capitalism per se is not to blame.
            It is the interference that creates the distortions. Mostly deliberate, sometime well intentioned.
            just trying to keep the record strait.
            Thanks for your comments and yes I am enjoying A Coruna.

    • bonbon

      Marx seems to be the subject here, so it is important to understand his failure. He defined “capitalism” as Adam Smith’s British Empire recipe. That is the error of composition that permeates the entire communist mindset. Marx was run by David Urquhart and spoon fed. A telling letter by Marx attacking US-Irish economist Henry C. Carey and US-German economist Friedrich List, motivated by Engels gives the game away. List and Carey actually define capitalism contrary to Smith’s. Arthur Griffith pubished Friedrich List’s work on Political Economy here in the United Irishmen.

      This should clear up the popular confusion.

    • bonbon

      The speaker refers to “Creative Destruction” which is actually from Schumpeter (witness the Economist Magazine Schumpeter Column), who got it from Sombard – in other words Nietzsche. Creative Destruction is fascism, the ultimate perversity against progress.

      Marx lived after the US broke with Smith’s Empire and pursued a directly opposed economics that Marx must have known about. Engels did. There is no excuse today for this error. Mr. Blairs speech at Chatham House (RIIA) does indicate the same policies and economics are being brutally enforced even as Marx’s foreseeable breakdown of that “capitalism” happens.

      A sign that things are likely to change is the Financial Times July 04 2012 editorial on Glass-Steagall. It is urgent to repudiate Smith now.

  35. Dorothy Jones

    ”Otherwise Ireland will become known as the country that never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

    This Government has continually failed to grasp the opportunities to negotiate for the Country.

    Whether it’s due to lack of balls or the Good Room syndrome; it all amounts to incompetence on a grand scale.

    Life does not present infinite amounts of opportunity in some cases, and failing to avail of the leverage Ireland has when dealing with the issues at hand has been appalling.

    We could do worse than cue in a few of the Japanese housewives : ”Mrs Watanabes” to deal on our behalf. Remember them?

    • Tony Brogan

      The”Watanabes” were the perfect specululators. Quote, ‘buying the rises and selling the dips’, resulting in a stabilization of the currency market.
      The market place functioning as it should!

      The graft and incompetance in the Irish government and regulatory infrastructure can not be overcome without a new broom sweeping clean.

      It is looking after oneself and or joining such as the DDI movement and seeking change politically that will empower the people and let the Watanabes go to work in the total economic and social arenas.

    • transitionman

      I would suggest The Four Angry men plus Olivia with.Special advisors C Gurdgiev S Donnelly and Diarmuid O Flynn with pen and paper. At least they might keep a record. The location a used builders Portacabin on the top floor of our new partially built central bank.

    • bonbon

      A call for Irish housewives to become Forex traders! To deal with a crash of epic strategic implications?

      I’m afraid the obsession with monetarism is in terminal stages of dementia.

      Glass-Steagall is the first medicine for the “investment” arm of banking – it will be ejected in favor of commercial banking with public duties to reconstruction.

  36. Tull McAdoo

    Checking through my dispatches here in the Antipodes and it turns out we have opened a “soup kitchen” in Athlone.

    Turned a corner, greeen shoots……..indeed…

    Does any man dream that a Gael can fear?

    Of a thousand deeds let him learn but one!

    The Shannon swept onwards broad and clear,

    Between the leaguers and broad Athlone.

  37. AndrewGMooney

    Hey David, howz it hangin?

    this ‘BrummieBoy’ has been a bit busy with Olympics and stuff, but with Xmas coming, it’s time to get back on track with all my mt8s over the water. So, where are we in the “we are where we are” board-game? Oh, yes, same place we’ve been for a good few years. Going round in circles.

    I like it when David reduces complexity to something digestible:

    “your spending is actually my income and my spe- nding is your income. And if we all stop spending at the same time and the Government exacerbates this by slashing spending simultaneously, who is spending? And if no one is spending, who is earning? And if no one is earning, who can possibly be saving without earning?”

    That applies to the macro Euro thing as well as the local Irish thing, though, doesn’t it? And Angela and her Dutch mates don’t seem to share the same understanding. Even the Yanks are running out of patience with their barmy behaviour:

    “The report said Germany’s current account surplus is running at 6.3pc of GDP, and Holland is even worse at 9.5pc. Yet the countries still cleave to fiscal austerity policies that constrict internal demand.”

    Economics, hey? War by other means, same as it ever was. Surprised the Dutch are so delinquent, but there we go.

    It’s very odd that Ireland still thinks it will get a gold star for being the teacher’s pet if it follows Germany’s teachings. But there are some people who think that Germany is not in a position to teach anyone anything. And is heading for an almighty crash, taking the whole Europa thing into the abyss with them. And that would be a shame really….all things considered.

    bye now!

    • StephenKenny

      So, removing all the stuff that sounds like a radio news and current affairs program, seems to leave us with:

      Print, spend, repeat.
      Blame the Germans.

      Rhymes nicely with 1997 to 2007. Still, that gives us 10 years to get our property portfolios sorted out.

      “But there are some people who think that Germany is not in a position to teach anyone anything. And is heading for an almighty crash, taking the whole Europa thing into the abyss with them”

      Who are these people?

      • AndrewGMooney

        “Who are these people?”

        “The US Treasury has issued a damning criticism of Germany’s chronic trade surplus in its annual report on worldwide exchange rate abuse, although it stopped short of labelling the country a currency manipulator.”

        “The US Treasury’s shift in focus away from China – and towards Germany’s disguised mercantilism – reflects mounting irritation in Washington over North Europe’s “free-rider” strategy, which relies on exploiting global demand rather than generating it at home.”

        “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

        The German phobia about money-printing is grounded in it’s past. However, there are plausible deflationary catastrophe scenarios ‘going forward’. Germany (France & Britain) recklessly lent vast oceans of money: expecting to have it all returned without any penalty for that foolishness appears delusional. The German economy would have flat-lined for years without the turbo-charged lending to Latin Europe and Ireland.

        There are no easy answers, but simplistic nostrums of austerity without demand have rarely translated into economic recovery. Canada did that, but by exporting into a booming US. Where does Germany expect to export to now? Mars?

        Keynes was the Shakespeare of economics, the fact that most of his advice was ignored in the boom does not render his insights redundants.


        • StephenKenny

          Of course Germany will take a hit when demand is finally allowed to fall to sustainable levels, across Europe and the US. But that is far from “an almighty crash, taking the whole Europa thing into the abyss with them”.

          10/20 years of reckless debt accumulation has driven, to varying degrees, sustainable investment out of the US, UK, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, and so on.

          The supply/demand imbalance, internationally, is completely out of wack not because Germany “decided” to start exporting too much, but because the above mentioned deficit countries “decided” to solve the crash of the DotCom stock market bubble, by pouring in cheap money and creating asset price – property – bubbles. This gave their populations loads of easy money, and they all wanted German cars, and the Chinese products of German machines.

          In the deficit countries, other business couldn’t compete with the easy profits of the bubble sectors, so attracted almost no investment.

          So the US, Ireland, UK, and so on, have a levels of demand based on the business activity of the decades of the stock market & property bubbles.

          The suggestion now, it seems, is to sustain these levels of demand using government borrowing and money printing. This is a decision to sustain a business model that we have absolute, cast iron, proof, not only doesn’t work, but will take what little is left of our productive economies “over the top” into a grand final destruction.

          The heads of the US Federal Reseve bank, of the US Treasury, and of the UK’s Bank of England, have stated, in the clearest possible terms, that their current goal is to use government intervention to push up property and stock market prices. This, they say, will improve consumer confidence, and get the economy going again.

          Keynes may be the Shakespeare of economics, but it is the Shakespeare of alchemy and astrology, not of plays and sonnets

          • Tony Brogan

            Eloquently stated.

          • bonbon

            Correct on the mad Bubble Rescue Plan. Instead of this alchemy we need to look at the Triple Curve and notice the physical economic collapse that has been “silently”, relentlessly progressing to breakdown. That means massive recovery along the lines of New Deal projects as FDR (who rejected all alchemists from Keynes to Fisher). This means 3 simultaneous actions : first Glass-Steagall, National Banking and Reconstruction.

            And by the way Keynes and Fisher were both Eugenics Society presidents. One of Keynes “sonnets” in 1946 can be quoted if you like, which I think would cure any theatrical delusions.

          • bonbon

            And the newly appointed Carney from Canada to the BoE is a sworn enemy of Glass-Steagall, against King and Haldane in the UK. Cameron’s decision can only be understood from Mr Blair at Chatham House Royal Institute of International Affairs
            In other words the mad plan is top priority, regardless of any reason.

          • Germany used the ECB as a Bundesbank proxy. It was well aware of the crazed manias developing in the ‘Wild West’ of the IFSC.

            Like all good Puritans caught sneaking out of the brothel, they sought to blame others for being tempted into sin.

            Peer Steinbrueck tried to shaft Ireland over Hypo Real. Thankfully, Lenihan for all his faults, didn’t fancy taking one up the arse for the German team:


            If the German’s had managed to ‘share’ the burden of Hypo, does anyone really think they’d have come back to the table ‘for the good of Europe’?

            I note you don’t regard what’s happened in Ireland as an ‘almighty crash into the abyss’. Many other feel that’s what’s happened to them, their families, their enterprises. When the German public realise their politicians have been gambling with the nation’s pension funds for over a decade, i think the anger will switch from the ‘feckless’ periphery to the internal dynamics of German politics and it’s troubled relationship with France.

            The French, of course, will shaft the Greeks in similar fashion, despite having made completely insane loans for Olympics, armaments for a future war against Turkey- all manner of nonsense besides new-registration BMW’s.

            Germany advanced ‘credit’ to the periphery to buy German products. Now it’s all gone arse-over-tit. They temporarily dodged the bullet by looking East to Russian and China, but that’s about to go belly-up as well.

            I agree with your general overview of central bank behaviour. QE [and the Euro variant of it] is, indeed, a desperate attempt to stop asset deflation. When have banks ever willingly taken a hit to their assets (loan book)? The central banks and the banking corporations are an incubus/succubus and there’s no sign of that changing last time i looked.

            I’m not sure i understand your remark about Keynes.

            He was an absolute genius in understanding that the future wealth of cheap energy driven growth could be front-loaded through deficit spending. I’m not sure that that proviso still holds as Peak Cheap Oil descends (despite the blather about shale oil/gas).

            Keynes advocated running surplus during a boom to pay for stimulus during a slump. That didn’t happen before this crisis, hence the current mess. There is no cheap energy for Europe to tap to drive the economic engine and get out of the ditch.

            The debts of the past can only be repaid in a radically devalued currency. Any attempt to repay them on the basis of a Core-Euro ‘hard money’ currency will completely destroy the economies of the periphery. Navigating through this crisis requires enormous skill and dexterity. I simply do not see that in Angela Merkel. Or Enda Kenny.

            Ireland has effectively surrendered economic sovereignty. It currently goes along with the uber-Euro charlatans in Berlin, but if there’s a putsch and a Latin-Euro emerges as dominant, then I’ve no doubt the country will accede to the new dominant agenda, blown about like a paper bag in the wind. Drahi will do ‘whatever it takes’. FG replaced FF in the tweedledee/tweedledum non-choice election, despite claiming they would stand up to the bullies. They didn’t. The nails-on-blackboard budget next week will show this very clearly. Not a good luck as the build up to 2016 looms into view.

            It’s one thing to undergo massive societal trauma to balance the books between income and spending to genuinely reposition the country for the future. It’s quite another to allow a troika cabal to eviscerate the political culture and economy purely as a means to honour debts which have no honour, which are odius, and which urgently required renegotiation with the threat of repudiation if necessary.

            I really can’t see the basis on which someone like Stephen Collins finds such an optimistic scenario ‘going forward’ [sic]



          • @bonbon

            Respecting Keyne’s singular achievements in economic theory does not require any endorsement of his other political or cultural views. That would make as much sense as trying to understand his work by reference to his sexuality.

            You are great fun. I love your stuff. It’s totally ‘out-there’. Please keep on keeping on: just don’t expect a response to every silly snipe. Ask around, I’ve been here a long time. I don’t rise to bait from anyone: unless it amuses me to do so. I may descend on you for the sport of it, but don’t lose sleep waiting.


          • bonbon

            To clear up theatrical illusionism on Keynes, his “General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money”, so praised by unsuspecting Tigers, could only be published in Germany with this preface : Keynes states that “the theory of aggregated production, which is the point of the following book, nevertheless can be much easier adapted to the conditions of a totalitarian state [eines totalen Staates] than the theory of production and distribution of a given production put forth under conditions of free competition and a large degree of laissez-faire.”.

            You can imagine the reaction then. Now we hear Tiger’s praising this? It is interesting the laissez-faire Austrian School avoids this critique, as their Hayek actually called from an international agency to enforce the rules of “free-trade”.

            Now we have a much better grasp of economics and see why both of the London School of Economics Fabian schools actually do lead directly to eugenics and polulation reduction, with the Triple Curve.

          • StephenKenny

            “an almighty crash, taking the whole Europa thing into the abyss with them”. The ‘Europa thing’ is not in the abyss. Yet. I don’t generally respond to such ‘silly snipes’.

            Doubtless, the newspapers, the tv, and the radio will ring with the excitement of all these “stabbings and shaftings”, making sure that everyone is on the edge of their seats, waiting for the next instalment. Short of outright military invasion, or ‘regime change’; as it’s now called, any agreement between nations is easily nullified. You may recall the UK Treasurer, Alistair Darling’s desperate efforts to have Iceland declared a “terrorist state” when it refused to back the debts of a couple of UK-based Icelandic banks.

            When national economies are at stake, for all the dramatic talk of surrender – governments can just walk away.

            Certainly, the banks who lent too much to periphery countries are going to get a beating, and they deserve it. It would, though, be interesting to consider what the reaction would have been, all those years back, if these same banks had refused to lend to bad risks such as Ireland, Spain, Greece, and so on. The “Pope’s Children” gave us vivid imagery of the attitude of the population of Ireland towards this.

            Had Ireland run a serious surplus before the current ‘downturn’, it would have long ago been spent, sustaining the business model and structures of 2006, just as the UK is currently doing using it’s private pension funds, and it’s children’s future earnings.

            Contrary to the assurances we are currently being given, Keynes didn’t have, and didn’t pretend to have, an elixir for all types of national economic woes: If no one’s doing anything that is of the least interest to anyone else, then no amount of encouragement, enhancement, goosing, boosting, investing, stimulating, ventilating, or anything other than settling down and doing the right thing, will improve trade, and therefore the economy.

            The chronic distortions made in economies such as Ireland, Spain, Greece & the UK by the easy money and catastrophic political decisions of the last 15-20 years will get sorted out, one way or another. Since no politicians will be politically able to make the decisions, the price will inevitably be an almost total eradication of savings and pensions in these countries.

            For those countries which have prevented house price falls, this will coincide with some sort of revolt by the young, when they realise that high property prices simply are, in fact, no more than a tax by the old on the young.

          • @bonbon

            Well, we could have a discussion about how Keynes proposed a ‘bancor’ model to stabilise world trade. We could, but we won’t, because you have a rather tiresome habit of throwing in ‘eugenics’, ‘terraforming’, and all manners of mad Larouche sh1t that makes your posts funny but hardly worth my time to deconstruct. Stephen Kenny’s thinking is far more organised and attractive so i’ll move on to have a pint with him, if you don’t mind.

            @stephen kenny

            Alistair Darling’s response to Iceland was prescient, appropriate and,with the subsequent trial and imprisonment of some of Iceland’s financial elite, has been shown to have been in the interests of the Icelandic people in alerting them to the need to bang a few saucepans. Some fcukwits over there forgot their experience in WW11 and cracked/crashed under pressure. Not a good look for a President. Alistair also ‘grin-fucked’ the hapless Hank Paulson, triggering the Lehman’s meltdown. Balls of steel. Unfortunately, he was not Prime Minister so couldn’t turn his flame-thrower on the British banking cabal because of Gordo’s ‘issues’. Hopefully once he’s set pu gormless Salmond to destroy himself, he’ll return to run the Realm with/alongside Yvette Cooper.

            I’m not going to repeat all this stuff 4 years on, it’s all in the archives under my various personas. I enjoyed culture jamming here, winding the credulous up in my bowler hat and pinstriped suit. Most of what i rapped ‘on the fly’ seems to stand up, except some of the lyrical-satirical-surrealist-art-terrorist Joycean mentalist stuff, but that’s the perils of innovative Art for you. Here’s one money-shot quote:

            “Jumping the gun and ‘going for broke’ (possibly literally) may precipitate a situation entirely opposite to what its’ proponents intend.”


            Ireland is now reaping the whirlwind for both acting like an upstart ingenue and then believing that such behaviour would be forgiven and forgotten. Not that DMcW didn’t spell out an entirely credible game-plan, it’s just that the magpies in power pick up his ball and played a completely different game, forgetting ‘the rules’.

            Overall, I can respect most of your perspective, Stephen. It’s an entirely valid position to hold.

            Keynes was essentially a cornucopian. We are now in a position where Collapse and Singularity modes play out in real time in different markets and geopolitical zones. I’m not aware of any thinker who has addressed these complexities effectively. In fact, the only person i’ve found who’s even begun to bring it all together is Matt Bellamy, a ‘pop star’ from Devon. Muses’ ’2nd Law’ says far more about the current impasse than anything else:

            ” The 2nd Law (drawing its title from the famous law of thermodynamics that states “entropy always increases”) could certainly add fuel to both sides of the arguments about the future of mankind, with Bellamy exploring the impact of threats like the global financial crisis and climate change from different perspectives.

            He describes the Olympic anthem Survivor as embodying the aggressively optimistic attitude of a “raging lunatic libertarian”, while the suicidally pessimistic Animals explores “the more socialist and fearful side”.

            He is genuinely fascinating on this subject, drawing in the evolutionary scientist Richard Dawkins, the games theorist John Nash, political PR pioneer Edward Bernays and the 19th-century economist Henry George’s theory of land value tax. Although Muse’s music often has an air of near apocalyptic dementia, Bellamy claims he is not particularly fretful about the future.

            “We’re all in the same boat together. There’s two directions it can go, one is energy revolution, someone might crack nuclear fusion and we could all be living like Star Trek. The other direction is fossil fuels gradually decline, global warming kicks in, things could get ugly and all we can do is deal with it. I’d like to think we’re gonna be living on other planets in 100 years, but I’m going to be teaching my son how to farm, just in case.”


            It doesn’t surprise me that Glenn Beck tried to hook on to Muse, but he’s a simplistic charlatan, unlike Bellamy. 4 years ago there was a brief interlude when ‘econonomics was the new rock’n'roll’, but it didn’t happen and, with Muse, we find that ‘rock’n'roll is once again the new rock’n'roll’. Muse are a bit too OTT for Kilkenomics, but the mash-up of music and theory is the only way to create emotional resonance to underpin dry printed words.

            If Keynes were alive today, he’d be in a band like Muse, not sitting around listening to Angela and Enda drone on about nonsense.

            Your final point about young people rebelling against Boomer deceit is excellent. I had hoped that Occupy Kultur would stop the recent Rolling Stones concerts but no, the dreary horror was allowed to unfold once again. Still, with Psy we see the ‘Riverdance’ phenomenon move to Seoul. It’s all good, there’s no reason why Ireland or Britain should be saved from economic oblivion. The next spin of Fortuna’s Wheel will take us to a radically different place. I’m assuming 80% of the people reading this will be reduced to penury as a result, including possibly me.

            Anyway, my driver will be here soon. BHX. Spectacles. Testicles. Passport. Condoms. Monday morning, another throw of the dice, another patsy to fool into showing their hand.

            ps: don’t worry folks, I’m only doing this ‘encore’ briefly. I won’t crash you’re ‘fascinating’ discussion about metals and fiat on a permanent basis as ‘been there, done that, got the t-shrit’. Although it is tempting to find time to remix Bonbon’s mind, but i’ll resist….

            Onwards! Upwards! Amor Fati!, Up Laois! ‘mAd pADDy fRom BRum’, etc….Lol! *smirk*

          • Wrong link, this place could do with an ‘edit’ button, but I guess that would ruin it as everyone could go back and get rid of all their loopy stuff, especially DMcW’s. LOL!


          • bonbon

            We discussed the “Bancor” a while back – refused at Bretton Woods by Harry Dexter White. Actually the Euro is a dry run for that Bancor – charming success what?

            Basically the Euro is the Bancor with lipstick, a favorite pastime of Keynes; the BRIC another attempt.

          • @bonbon

            you’re ‘slightly confused’ about the Bancor. it’s about as far away from the uber-Euro as it’s possible to get without leaving the planet.

            Economics is war by other methods. If this crisis is not to end like the last one in a trans-national bloodbath, then the Bancor’s a good place to start.

            How on earth you envisage your fantasy land-bridge terraforming transformation of this planet without some supra-national consensus is rather odd. The ocean and the air don’t recognise C19th colonial map lines.

            The Yanks thought they’d sewn it up after WW11, shafted France on ‘the gold window’ in 71 and ‘went shopping’. Look how that’s worked out!

            Start here:



    • Monsieur Brumifiere

      Bienvenue a’ Cirque Fiscale

      Alors…Alors …I somehow was expecting your re-appearance once more from your seasonal hibernation displaying your colourful ‘ mots arobatique’ and oo la la …you do not fail especially as we now all stand in solidarity …..I don’t know what kind of solidarity anymore ….anyway …’a solidarity’ …of some minds .

      I hope between now and over the Xmas season I can read more of your deep analysis of our national chaos and cliff hanging decisions to be made.

      • Hello John ALLEN

        I hope all’s well for you and yours.

        I’ve been tied up this side of the Irish Sea, but it’s time to pay some serious attention to Ireland. Not sure why, but I have a gut feeling that things are going to change shape soon.

        Thanks for your kind words. I have always enjoyed your unique take on all this over the years and hope you are still keeping any ‘moon wobbles’ under scrutiny.


  38. Tony Brogan

    JJust looked at the global food economy –Punk economics. Very good David- brilliant in fact.

  39. Clare Leonard

    See the attached link re. CNBC news. 30th. November 2012

    On the 14th.November, Direct Democracy Ireland was launched at Buswells Hotel,

    where they disclosed and discussed the Federal Reserve financing of the ECB.

    This got no coverage in the Irish Media, yet two weeks later CNBC make the same ‘breaking news’ statement and they get global coverage.

    It is important for Ireland to understand the reason the Federal Reserve are bailing out the ECB.

    The money laundering goes like this,

    Federal Reserve to ECB, ECB to banks, banks to governments == then government pass the bill to the people.

    Why does the Federal reserve bail out the ECB.?

    Goldman Sacks, Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase and Citibank have HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS of CDS
    ( yes, that is trillion , not billion) insurance contracts out on various European sovereign debt.
    CDS contracts are just insurance on a possible sovereign default, actually, it is just pretend insurance,
    as the banks do not have the funds to pay out on the insurance should a default occur.
    So the Federal Reserve are trying to protect their own banks,they are not bailing out Europe.
    It is important to understand and document the ‘Odious’ part of our debt.
    See DDI press release in relation to ‘Odious’ debt and Direct Democracy policy in ralation to same.

    As the US$ is on the verge of collapse it is extremely important we understand the implications of the Fed. bailout. When the Federal reserve stop bailing out the ECB, the end is near.
    How soon?=== the time is so close I can smell it.
    Yet our mainstream media would prefer to cover the
    toy show, and then ask us to cover their costs.

    • bonbon

      We know all that – this has been discussed here in this blog months ago.

      Glass-Steagall is the way to go. Split off the investment sector to survive on their own, but we keep a functioning commercial sector open exactly as FDR did in 1933, when the world graduated from feudal “fondi” finance of the Venetian model.

      Glass-Steagall was repealed in 2000 and since then it has been a most destructive bubble series. It is in principle 30+ pages of legislation and existed in most nations in various forms, all repealed at the time.

      The US dealt with this “cliff” before a nd we got a New Deal and recovery. Europe did not. The precedent exits, which shows the true Obama intentions of personally intervening against Glass-Steagall.

      President Higgins has often referred to this key, central issue.

  40. Tony Brogan

    How to tell the banks where to go —Mrs Brown.

    • Adam Byrne

      From Gene Kerrigan’s article:

      “We have “37 bankers paid more than €500,000 per annum. This is over €130,000 more than the heads of the Bank of England, the IMF, the European Central Bank and the World Bank, and €340,000 more than the chairman of the US Federal Reserve.”

      I will go further, Sir. Enda is paid €28,000 more than Mr Cameron. Mr Noonan earns €19,000 more than his US equivalent, Tim Geithner. And the Governor of the Central Bank (who took a substantial wage cut) is paid €119,000 more than his US equivalent, Ben Bernanke.”


  41. Adam Byrne

    I watched ‘The Company of Men’ last night. Decent movie. Anyone seen it?

  42. bonbon

    President Michael D. Higgins gave a speech at Manchester University regarding his perception of an ‘intellectual crisis’ in Irish life, last week. There was a very revealing attack in the Daily Mail penned by Dr Mark Dooley, “an Irish philosopher, author and broadcaster” defending Hayek and Popper, both lecturers at the London School of Economics. Hayek as all know here by now, is the Austrian School’s luminary, and Popper the Open Society idol, both in fact Mont Pelerin Society founding members. George Soros is a Popper disciple.

    This is where the entire “exceeding his powers” talk is coming from – liberal worshipers of “freedom”, of the “free-market” Hayek and Popper ideology.

    President Michael D is right – this is the reason for the intellectual crisis – the “legitimization” by universities of an ideology that undermines their very purpose.

    • Tony Brogan

      I gather you do not believe in free markets ((which we have not had for 100 years or so)but state intervention on a grand scale.
      In fact you seem to favour a super state where grand projects are unveiled for the good of mankind.
      Would you have been confortable in Stalin’s Russia or Mao’s China.

      • bonbon

        Next you’ll claim FDR was a Soviet agent – that one went around the funny farm a while back.

        Keynes called for a superstate, and Hayek for an international agency to enforce free-trade. Both were ignored by FDR. The General Welfare and Credit Clause definitely upset its enemies.

        The old “commie bogie man” is dated. Hayek et all pressed on that button to destroy all national economics. It is a bit silly now as China adopted FDR’s methods and Russia has rejected both Soviet and Liberal economics. The Austrian School has not caught on – held back by golden chains.

      • Hello Tony

        are you a Catholic, by any chance?

        “The unconditional obedience demanded of bishops who swear their allegiance to the pope when they make their holy oath is almost as extreme as that of the German generals who were forced to swear an oath of allegiance to Hitler,” he said.”

        You can add The Magisterium to your list of ‘grand projects’ and ‘super-states’. Or when you look at The Vatican on the map, do you somehow not see ‘The Holy See’.

        *drums fingers on laptop and smiles*

  43. Philip

    Was listening to Pat Rabitte on the RTE Saturday morning show. He was being quizzed about the fairness etc of the coming taxes and cuts. He shrugged it off by telling us we need to recognise we live in a global market economy. George Lee and a few others were in the interview.

    Funny how no one pulled him up and corrected him to say – Eh, no Pat, we the people are in the market economy. You sir, are not. What made it so “funny” was he usual menacing manner in highlighting how “elements” of the media were making the politicians out as defenders of bankers. I can see a bill being proposed soon to avert further disdemeanours in that regard.

    Reason I highlight the above is to show why it is useless to be whining on about central banking etc. These guys will look after a constituency to ensure their re-entry to the Dail. They will hold onto power and anyone who thinks they can be shifted in the short term is crackers.

    DMW makes reference (in the Good Room) to one of Galbraiths great observations – that the enemy of the conventional wisdom is not ideas but the march of events.

    The trick is to try and dodge the sticky end of “events” while this is happening. This is why I watch this blog.

    • bonbon

      Firstly, whining and watching RTE are a waste of time. Being a couch potato “observing” bankers and politicians antics is not enough. Drop the “observer on the fence” Tiger carry-on, and the “artful Dodger” theatrics.

      Have a look at the Curve and be serious about the “march of events” you see there : the physical economic nosedive.

    • Adam Byrne

      Exactly Philip, right again. There’s no point in praying for the abolition of central banks etc. – ain’t going to happen. You may as well sing for your supper. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas and the wankers in Leinster House and the IFSC are screwing everyone else for as much as they can, as long as they can.

      The only way things are going to change ‘in this kip’ (to quote an unnamed source) is if things come crashing down around us and we have to start again.

      Bearing that in mind, keep yourself and your families safe, your wits about you, and work hard at what you can.

      • Tony Brogan

        Well my good Adam, nobody is praying for anything around here. But I am glad to see that the central banking system is seen as the menace it is.

        Having identified the problem an ingenious way will be found to be rid of it. Either that or sercomb to the infestation and be slowly and surely throttled economically.

        Did I notice 25% unenployment in Spain here? No but the hotel staff tell me that is the general rate. By the time it hits 50% there will be enough angry to do something. The question is will it be the correct target.

        So in order people know what to aim at, and get rid of, I tell one person at a time and they tell another who tell another…

        In the meantime I enjoy myself in A Coruna and spend a little doing David’s bidding.

        • Adam Byrne

          Okay lets see what ingenuity gives birth to Tony. Watching and waiting, and like you, talking to people.

        • Philip

          Hope the weather there is better than here.

        • bonbon

          I’m afraid you have not identified the problem. President Michael D Higgins has said it at the London School of Economics in January, and now at Manchester Uni.

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi philip, the weather is fine here. Mild and moist with sunny periods.
            it will be fine next week as I return to Ireland for 6 days and it is always sunny where ever I go.

            Higgins is not ordained to be correct on anything.I am surprised after all your recent comments that you give credence to anything uttered at the London School of Economics.
            look above for the solution solidly identified

          • Tony Brogan

            Sorry, 2nd paragraph addressed to BB

          • bonbon

            President Higgins spoke at the LSE and directly attacked their idols, and again in Manchester. He is consistent, and it is a democracy. He clearly identifies the intellectual crisis, where it comes from, and its effect.
            President Wulff spoke out at the Lindau Nobel Prize economist conference in 2011 and was driven from office.. He directly challenged the financial crowd in situ.
            Is it exceeding powers now to go after the very system that is ruining us?

          • Tony Brogan

            Yet you are quick to condem others who also addressed the LSE so you have a double standard there.

  44. Philip

    Speaking about march of events, have a look at Mr Linden’s latest musing.

    Now, even if you do not go along with the climate change thing, his observations point to mounting unstable equilibrium – which can be equally applied to the economy. When dealing with the global nature of the economy and our highly interconnected nature the ultra poor response times of goivernance to the ultra fast propagation of stimuli (in other words, your leaders will not see the consequences of their actions coming to do anything about it), we are in for a few more surprises.

    • bonbon

      As usual not factually correct, in other words a lie.

      The barriers proposed were not built. You can see in this link how the Dutch world class barriers have inspired others, UK engineering firms, who rwere efused by Bloomberg and Cuomo.

      And in the past similar storm surges as Sandy occurred, as reported by John Winthrop in 1635, former Gov. of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Here is The Weather Report from Nov 22 2012.

      Any Hollander will tell you that barriers are worth it.

      • Philip

        You really need to upgrade the software HAL. Year 1635 -satellite tech, wind speed and temp measurements over millions of square miles? Yeah, they had a real command of facts – and how to burn innocent people as witches as well – tres tres Larouche Mon Bonbon – or is it Madame?

        • bonbon

          My dear Tiger, life did go on before the current 21st century Global Warming lie. NY has had major storm surges before, and if you ever try to check history, before you were born, the solar Minimum of that epoch is repeating itself. At that time the Thames froze, one could walk from Copenhagen to Malmo and have a hot drink along the way over the ice. The nearby star is doing it again.

          If Mr. Bloomberg of Wall Street would like you to believe in “global warming” it is to deny firstly that we the people can know what occurred many hundreds of years ago, and what must occur in the future. Wall Street likes you to descent to four legs and bark – it gets them off the hook.

          Instead of docilely “heeling”, let’s put the financial crowd through a sheep dip – Glass-Steagall.

          And our modern 24h Solar satellite monitoring show exactly that cycle again – a Maunder Minimum. We will find out now what major flares, sunspot minimums really mean. We do have a better view. We know from the last one what to expect – build storm barriers fast.

          • Philip

            You represent Larouche and cannot show your face. Youre the one moralising but give no example of YOURSELF. You’re act like an acolyte of a group who profess public interest and yet you choose to hide behind a moniker. A bit spooky that.

            If you want a serious following and want to personally insult – show us who you are like our host here and some of the excellent contributers here.

            Until then youre just HAL – and a bad emulation of same

          • bonbon

            It seems 1635 hit a nerve there? I suggest watching the only serious weather report (never mind rte’s fiction).

            It’s the Sun! And we have sunspot records for ages.

            The Arctic was open before any industrial activity. During the last 22 ice ages of about 110,000 years each, with 10,000er intra glacial warm periods, man developed. We are in one of those now. Orbital variations, and the suns position as it moves through the Orion Arm are key. Add to that the radiation environment in the Arm which we know very little about. None of this is in the IPCC mantra.

          • Philip

            No. The nerve is to suggest i should ignore my community and family and give up what i am doing and follow you nutters and do so under a pseudonym.

            Unfortunately the Maunder minimum does not look like it’ll save us. Worse, it may be that our current pollution cleanup could in fact kill us all off as the level of pollutants drop to allow more sunlight in to have heating effect be trapped by existing excessive CO2 – and more heating again to release locked in methane. It may indeed be the case that current industrial output falloff might have the opposite effect to helping green the climate and hasten a more dramatic climate chnage bustup – now, there’s a banker led conspiracy for direct culling if ever there was one. You need to get your argumnets straight so it all hangs together properly. That’s why you need to be talking to real peer reviewed experts.

          • bonbon

            The Maunder minimum is not about pollution, rather about the CO2 Big Lie that people like Dr. Schellnhuber put out to reduce the human population (its families and communities) to 1 billion. Total decarbonizaton, no nuclear. This is Merkel’s “scientific advisor”, decorated by the Queen with OBE for these utterings.

            The minimum means food production problems unless action is taken now, for example banning bio-fuels as a crime against humanity.

      • Tony Brogan

        And any Hollander will tell you that the barriers were built to reclaim submerged land to be put in to agriculture.
        Dutch engineers did the same for the North Somerset area.
        Glastonbury used to be tidal a high tide island but is now miles inland. 100′s of sq miles reclimed to pasture land.
        Same thing in the frazer river delta around Richmond.

        The flooding problems around the world are partially caused by building in areas that used to be below sea levelmillenia ago and may be again. That is currently at sea level or up to 10 feet above.But as the sea is rising a max of 8″ every 100 years or so there is time to contemplate!!

    • transitionman

      I hate to tell you The Climate Change thing is The thing.!

      • Philip

        Oh, I agree. But that was not my whole point. We are entering unstable equilibrium across a lot of fronts and it is unstoppable. It’s a crash along a lot of fronts.

      • bonbon

        Climate change is the Lie of the 21st Century – it would make Goebbels blush.

        Now to get back to the task in hand – the Arctic is opening up as it did before, shipping on that short route is now strategically important. Docile Green Poster Boys are a bit ridiculous.

        • Adam Byrne

          Not fully sold on it myself Mr. bonbon, but pollution is out of control on all levels and that’s what should be tackled.

        • Tony Brogan

          It would seem that there is a hint of cooling this last 10 years as ice is accumulating on both greenland and antartica. The upper atmospheric data is suggesting a cooling trend.
          If it continues the arctic may close up again.

          “Docile Green Poster Boys are a bit ridiculous.”
          This is the sort of comment that get people pissed off at you bon bon.

          • bonbon

            Germany is destroying itself with the Green Poster girl, shutting down its energy supply. This is the same as the Irish Austerity Poster boy award in Euro Rescue madness.

            But for ordinary voters to get into either game is beyond excuse – such nuttiness is supposed to be reserved for the current batch of politicians.

            Naivete is not acceptable – too much damage is attributed to Tiger carelessness.

    • Tony Brogan

      Here is adiscussion on the causes and effects of climate chages over 1000′s of years and millions.
      It is based on physics and obsevations
      The jury is still out on the effect of mankind on the climate.
      CO2 has little correlation to temperature variation.
      Methane gas is correlated to temperature.nobody has decided which causes what.
      Well worth the read to educate oneself.
      Sea levels have been 10-20 feet higher than today recently geologically speaking. They appear to beslowlyrising at abot 6″ a 100 years and slowing as there is little available ice left to melt relatively speaking.

      • Adam Byrne

        Yeah, but stop all pollution. No excuse for it.

      • Philip

        Sorry, but who is Greg Benson? Who peer reviews his articles? All I see here are a bunch of random facts. It’s all based on physics and observations? By whom? It looks for the most part cut and paste and out of context.

        If you really want to educate yourself, make sure you get verified expert opinion and have no preconceptions. Take it from me…a guy who has worked with physicists for many decades…this stuff is scaring these guys.

        If the info is not peer reviewed by “real” experts. Walk away. This is why planes fly and things that work … work – most of the time. The rest is snake oil.

        • Tony Brogan

          Some validity philip to your point so it should be easy to show tha tthe presentation is faulty.
          Interestinly it contains many of the same opinions as bon bon on climate.
          My preconceptions go way back to Larouse encyclopedea, 50 years ago, many hours in the topographical maps of various atlases, and random reading over the years that cause me to look elsewhere when it comes to the expert opinion on the international panel on climate change.

          I see the IPCC falsifying data to suit their objectives and to me they have no credibility at all and are driven by a political agender

          • Tony Brogan


          • Philip

            IPCC did not delivberately falseify anything. They are a big bureaucracy. It was an exception used by vested interests to prove a rule…oh dear they are human after all.

            Science is hard. Science in the face of vested and ignorant opinion is harder still.

            Keep an open mind.

          • bonbon

            The East Anglia Uni Climate Research Unit under Prof. Phil Jones was caught red-handed months before copenhagen when its email were hacked to the internet. I have read them. Attached is the fortran model source code with student comments to modify the data – epecially the Middle Ages Warm Period MWP.

            The rest is history. Still the Big Lie rolls along the Goebbels way.

            The IPCC did deliberately falsify, and used the CRU reports after the scandal. The result Carbon Certificates, and Al Gore the first Carbon multimillionaire. The only possible explanation is the culling agenda so dryly espoused by Dr. Schellnhuber.

          • Philip

            Cobblers HAL. The IPCC was taken out of context. Anyway, it does not matter now, as I stated earlier, the thing is in runaway mode. Deckchairs on the Titanic and the argument is over.

  45. Adam Byrne

    STOP PRESS: Mr. bonbon and Tony Brogan agree on something. They are both climate change deniers. ‘Burn and be damned’ they say in unison!

    • Adam Byrne

      Never thought I’d see the day…

      • Tony Brogan

        typical comment from the uninformed.
        Not denying climate change but the science is not showing it is anything to do with mankind.

        If I may quote, you do youself no justice by spouting off the top without reading the posting!!!

        HA HA to you too!

        There are a number of things I agree with bon bon about. his problem is that he is an attack dog that can not acknowledge a mistake and is peronal in hid derision.
        given a pint and a discussion we might even have a civilized debate but only if he sticks to the issues and stays impersonal!

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