October 25, 2012

If we're a 'special case' let's strike a really good deal -- we deserve it

Posted in Irish Independent · 186 comments ·

TWO issues have been dominating the Irish economic landscape this week. The first is: what does our being described as a “special case” by Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande actually mean? If it means we will be treated specially, what will other countries, like Spain, think? The second, and equally important, issue is this: does being “a special case” mean we will get a legacy bank deal, which would be a big step forward? If so, what would such a deal do for the biggest problem facing our society — the coming tidal wave of mortgage defaults initially in the “buy-to-let” market, and then in the residential mortgage market?

The last five days have not been easy for the faint-hearted. On Friday, Ms Merkel poured freezing Baltic water on Ireland’s chances of getting a legacy deal. Then, following a flurry of diplomacy, a joint communiqué issued by Berlin and Dublin suggested we were in fact a special case. Our specialness has not yet been defined, but on Monday, the Taoiseach took a swing at it, saying Ireland was special because we had “taken one for the team”, in not applying the rules of capital to the bankruptcy of the banks; leaving the creditors to take a major hit.

As soon as it became apparent that the Irish State, bullied by the ECB, was following a “no bondholder left behind” policy with respect to the banks even as their losses mounted, this column always argued that the bondholders should be burned. The basic logic of not paying up front — instead of paying and then looking for your money back — is obvious.

Yesterday, it looked like the door had been left tantalisingly open for us to get our money back in some form through this “special case” reference. Given how things have gone over the past few years, it’s hard not to be sceptical, but equally, if the facts truly have changed, it would be misguided not to adjust to the new reality of our being special.

For a moment, imagine that the hoped for outcome materialises. Ireland is treated as a special case because we “took one for the team” — we stuck to the austerity programme and are small in European terms. Our fate will then be governed by the American expression “you don’t get what you deserve; you get what you negotiate”.

This is when we should focus on a deal that provides not just enough money for the legacy debts, but also the future debts of the banking system, which will come via the mass default on buy-to-lets and later, on residential mortgages.

Last year the Minister of Finance in the Dail put the figure for personal household indebtedness at 143pc of GDP. This is bigger than the national debt and much bigger than the banking debt. The problem with much of this debt is that it was used to finance house buying. Now those houses — the assets — have fallen in value, but the debt remains fixed and rising because interest rates, although low, are positive.

More worrying still is the fact that interest rates are now at historic lows. The implication is they can only go up. A total 45,165 of all mortgages are in arrears of over 90 days; 17,553 are in arrears of over 45 days and 65,698 are in arrears of over 180 days. These figures come from the Central Bank’s latest bulletin. Already, €15bn worth of mortgages have been restructured.

Fitch, the rating agency, believes 20pc of Irish mortgages will eventually default as incomes fall.

The reason people default is not so much because houses are in negative equity but mainly because people’s incomes fall and they can’t keep all the balls in the air. This week’s survey from the credit unions reinforces the contention that we are very close to this tipping point. It suggests that 1.8 million adults had less than €100 at the end of the month after all the bills were paid.

So rather than wait for the debt bubble — the corollary of the housing bubble — to burst, wouldn’t it be more sensible for the State to try and put a figure on the worst case scenario. Then it could go to Europe with that figure added to the existing legacy debt and demand that much money. The logic of this is simple: you only get one chance to strike a deal. If the Government has indeed secured special treatment (which we deserve) then it’s better to go big.

This makes sense because, for starters, the average person needs a break. Secondly, the default tsunami is coming. If we only deal with past debts, the future ones will sink the banks after we get the deal that was supposed to solve their bankruptcy.

In these situations you only get one chance.

  1. wills

    The article’s argument hinges on the ECB as the bad guys in the room.

    But, are they?

    The Irish banks and their local crony networks are the bad guys.

  2. Beaver

    We´re only special because were taking the cuts without rioting and we´re growing while implementing austerity. The Germans can then say to he other PIIGS, Ĺook at Ireland – Austerity works so do it too.Whats more Inda admitted its all our own fault beacuse we went mad and that hes sure well pay back all our debts. Special eejits!!! We also overpay our civil service and medical consultants with borrowed money so our German friends remain even more convinced we have plenty of money so why would we need help.

  3. Johno

    I would fear even if we were to get a bank deal the deal will not be good enough and certainly wont cover future losses. I just don’t think anyone in goverment or in oppositon is strong enough or clever enough to get the deal that is needed.

    On a second note really looking forward to Kilkenomics and will get down to the box office to get a few tickets for a few of the shows!

  4. Special Case

    Define it ? These are two words banded together by the incumbent Abattoir Manager Noonan . They have no basis in fact and never will .

    This is an attempt to grovel and fornicate to the new masters and be sucked more into the abyss .

    We are all in the Darkness of Doonan

  5. Dorothy Jones


    That’s the only case that’s special. Enda’s posturing is nauseous, but at least it shows him for what he is. He’s not a man, he’s a no-liathroidi Ken Doll. Silver-haired Peter Matthews, he of dulcet tones and VB riler, said it like it is: the financial products, derivatives and the shadow banking, are complicated and the politicians are behind the curve.

    Diarmuid O’ Flynn, Thomas Pringle, NAMA wine lake and Judge Peter Kelly are great people.

  6. J999

    Perhaps Willis, your question is raised for the purpose of playing Devil’s advocate. However, I fear that this is not the case as it is obvious that so many in this country, let alone those abroad who need to be educated, still don’t get it. And that’s not to mention our own Taoiseach who tells the world we bring this on ourselves because we went mad borrowing and spending.

    “The Irish banks and their local crony networks are the bad guys.” No one is arguing with that but let’s look at the bigger picture. Irish banks get caught up in a credit frenzy. Do they act alone alone? Of coarse not. They can’t print money so they are aided and abetted by foreign banks. Hence it is a European and global frenzy of reckless lending and borrowing. And when the music stops and all the players scramble to put their butts on chairs, somehow we the tax payer are on the line.

    Think about that. We are talking about private corporations, both here and abroad, behaving badly. We are not talking about a splurge of government borrowing or an out of control deficit. We are talking about private debt which suddenly thanks to the Europeans, and the IMF, becomes sovereign debt. Our previous government are naturally to blame too. They didn’t shout stop but then neither did the EU and ECB. But apart from that, they allowed themselves to be bullied. And the current crowd allow this to continue. Any future negotiation has to seek to reverse this debt remaining sovereign.

    So Willis, I’m sure you have heard David say at some time in the past something like “when you’re sitting at the poker table and can”t spot the fool….”, what do you think he meant?

    • Tony Brogan

      They can’t print money so they are aided and abetted by foreign banks

      ‘Fraid that is not so. ALL BANKS print money.

      This is the essence of the fractional reserve system
      When a regular bank receives a deposit (any deposit) it is added immediately to the assets of the bank. It is no longer the possession of the person making the deposit but the possion of the bank. This is legally so as the bank is not a custodian for your money. It has issued a slip to say it promises to allow you to withdraw an amount equal to that deposit on the following terns and conditions. It may pay you interest etc. and tie the money up for 5 years for example.
      It may receive the deposit as a loan from the central bank or a payment of interest on anothers loan.

      Immediately that the deposit becomes the banks possession it becomes part of the bank reserves. The law allows the bank to have only a small percentage of reserves against the total loans outstanding. concervately this would be 10% but recently has dropped to as low as 5% and even 1%.

      Let us be conservative. We will use a 10% reserve.
      The bank receives a deposit of 1000 euros, and can now lend out another 910euros (loans and the deposit = 1,000)

      The question is where does that 910 euros come from to be loaned out

      It is produced out of thin air by a digital recording on a ledger account. The bank need not even print the money, it is a digital recording. Mandrake the magician at work. No money there. Sign here and Poof… you have a 910 loan.
      You take the money and spend it. That person deposits in the same bank or another and 910 euros are deposited. Someone with a loan request goes in and that bank can use the 910 euros as reserves and loan it out to 800 plus and on it goes.

      so the banks effectively do and can “print ” money and that is the rapid expansion of the money supply.

      no other business has this privilige and the practice must be banned.

      • J999

        Yeah ok Tony, I admit I was a little uneasy when I made that statement. What you are saying is in essence true. It’s just that our central bank does not directly do that any more. They can not print money, inflate, deflate, change interest rates. We’ve rather foolishly handed that power to the (unelected) ECB, hence the whole issues regarding the promissory notes etc.

        But I take your point and I hope you take mine. Banks lend to each other and as Constantin Gurdgiev once put it; ‘the Germans (banks) too have invested in and inflated a huge property boom. The only difference is it wasn’t on German soil, it was on Irish and Spannish soil’ … or something to that affect.

        • Tony Brogan

          Yes I agree with you essentially.
          The banks issue is not well understood. Nor is it addresses by economists but only commentators who basically agree with austrian economics.

          The Irish central bank issues currency I think ((not sure)but euros. The monetary policy is set by the ECB and so the country is emasculated.

          i wish to get rid od all central banks as No interest rates should be set. It is and should remain a cost of money set in the market.

          Likewise there should be no additions to the money supply by any government agency. It is not required to increase the money supply to have a growing or vibrant economy. Money is not consumed in the trade of goods and services it is merely a catalyst in the process and goes on to the next transaction.

          The only true function of a bank should be to act as a safe place to store the assets of their customer as a custodian. They should charge a fee for services rendered and eack bank in competition with other banks for those clients. Or you end up like me largely acting as my own bank.

          Mabe see you in Kilkenny?

  7. Pat Flannery

    With regard to Irish mortgage debt: “…… wouldn’t it be more sensible for the State to try and put a figure on the worst case scenario. Then it could go to Europe with that figure added to the existing legacy debt and demand that much money.”

    Your reasoning is the exact opposite to that of both the present Irish Government and the present EU leadership. They are trying to uncouple bank debt from sovereign debt; you want to bind them together.

    You want the Irish Government to take responsibility for Irish mortgage debt and then pass it on to the European taxpayer? You seem to have totally succumbed to the Irish disease, that government is responsible for everything. Thank goodness neither the Irish Government nor the EU leadership share your views.

    Whatever “special case” means it certainly does not mean we are allowed a bigger begging bowl, as you suggest. You would exploit “special case” and destroy our hard-earned reputation within the EU. Perhaps what you really want is for us to re-join the U.K. as economic penitents, incapable of self-government.

    In the real world of economics, mortgages are worth what their secured properties are worth, no more, no less. The banks who originated them and the bondholders who funded these loans are aware of this and are already trading them at their current value. You want to bolster that value at the expense of European taxpayers. What economics book does that come out of?

    • gizzy


      You missed a critical point. The Government did take responsiblity with a blanket gaurantee and privatisations of bankrupt banks. They then told the Irish Public to pay the bill. You are construing it as having happened the other way around. The effect of the Banking Collapse and Liquidity crisis then triggered real economic collapse causing people to lose their jobs and being unable to pay their mortgages. Austerity at the wrong time in the cycle has excacerbated the situation. It did not happen the other way around as your post suggests. As to our ‘hard earned reputation’ within the Eu what does that mean?

      • Tony Brogan

        Hi Gizzy
        David is suggesting that as Ireland seeks redress from bailing out the banks losses currently in existance then the government should look ahead to see who else would default and cover that amount as well.
        those private bank losses have been added to the sovereign debt.
        currently the government has not bailed out any private person just the bank for their perceived(actual) shortfall in reserves that causes them to be bankrupted.

        Pat suggests that David said that the future losses of mortgages on homes should be calculated and added in to the calculations.
        I thought David meant that the future losses to accrue to the banks should be accounted for now.

        This does not bail out the individual homeowner as Pat suggests is the case.

        It is just the banks being saved not the individual.

        “This is when we should focus on a deal that provides not just enough money for the legacy debts, but also the future debts of the banking system”

        {not the individual mortgages}.

    • Pat Flannery

      Gizzy & Tony:

      Boy I see that David has really done a number on you two. How many heads has he befuddled with this voodoo logic, punk economics, kilkenomics or whatever name he calls his bizarre musings nowadays? Or maybe I have missed his whole thing. This is all a big joke? Irish humor and all that.

      Surely you two don’t actually believe that all future Irish bank losses are insured by the Irish taxpayer? That the 2008 bank guarantee was a blank check? Forever?

      Surely you don’t buy into David’s crazy notion that Ireland should go to the European taxpayers and tell them that Ireland is on the hook for all future Irish bank losses, including mortgage defaults and ask Europe to cover such craziness?

      Sometimes I feel that my flight from Kennedy accidentally landed me in a lunatic asylum. Perhaps the next time the Troika come to Dublin they will be wearing white coats.

      • Tony Brogan

        Pat if you think that, you have not read a thing I have posted over the last several weeks

        I never suggested that the country bail out all the mortgage holders or the banks

        The reference was simply to the suggestion that now Ireland is seeking to recover the bailout funds from the ESM then while he is at it they should calculate what else might be demanded of the government in terms of a bank bailout in the near future.
        I did not think it meant that all the mortgage holders would be bailed out and said as much.

        I was trying to ID what David meant when he said what he did.It’s time for him to clarify since we have this problem understanding what he meant to say.

        All I have said is what I thought was indicated. I nevder said I agreed with it and in the past have posted that as far as I am concerned the banks are broke. Let then go under and to hell with them.

        Read a little closer Pat and do not see what you expect to see but actually evaluate what you are seeing and what you are saying.
        you have obviously never read any of my opinion pieces so get with it.

        Read what David said:

        “This is when we should focus on a deal that provides not just enough money for the legacy debts, but also the future debts of the banking system”

        The banking system is what he said. what does that mean to you? Maybe I misread what he said and if so it was a poor choice of words and not explicit so adding to the confusion.

        you want to read what I keep repeating

        Let the banks go under.
        Let the individuals go under.
        Provide humane bankruptcy laws that allow a person out from under after 3 years to allow a payment for a bad decision but enable a RECOVERY TO BECOME A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF SOCIETY
        Close the central bank
        Shut down the debt based issuance of currency. Ban fractional reserve banking.
        implement silver coins as an option for money.
        Put the monetary decisions in to treasury where they belong.
        Allow freedom for people to use whatever currency they want instead of the fiat mandated junk.
        Get your teeth into a few of these items before you fly back to Kentucky. They have been published enough before to be tiresome but most bloggers are quiet and say nothing. Not a yea or a ney.
        so lets have a discussion before the trolly and white coated haul you out of here.

        “In the real world of economics, mortgages are worth what their secured properties are worth, no more, no less. The banks who originated them and the bondholders who funded these loans are aware of this and are already trading them at their current value.”"

        Mortgages are worth 100% of the book value regardless of the property value. The pledge is what counts. What else have they got that the banks can seize for payment.
        Mortgages are not trading at market value. The mortgage back securities may be. There are hundreds of thousands of mortgagaes on the books of the banks at book value. The mortgages are under water and in deficit in payment. No forclosure actions are started as until then it can be pretended the mortgages are fine. the minute the legal action startts then the markwt value kicks in and the bank is short of reserves again and bankrupt. That is why trillions of funds had disappeared into the banks and no lending takes place nobody yet knows how bad it will get.

        So in my opininion Pat your staements on mortgages don’t hold water either.
        So think about that too.

        I will be out supporting the demonstration against the bank bailout on Sat in Castlebar. where are you going to be?

        • Pat Flannery

          Sorry Tony, I gave up reading your whacky ideas some time ago, brilliant ideas like “Close the central bank. Shut down the debt based issuance of currency. Ban fractional reserve banking. Implement silver coins as an option for money etc. etc.” I live in the real world Tony. Good luck at Castlebar tomorrow. They accept silver coins there.

          • Tony Brogan

            that’s for sure Pat. You have given up.

          • Tony Brogan

            Here is a video for you to watch Pat

            not just me with the wacky idea we need to close down the current banking system.


          • Pat Flannery

            Tony: I watched the video. Please provide me with a link to a copy of the lawsuit they filed for which they each paid €138. How much was the court filing fee? Was it one lawsuit or several individual lawsuits? Did the individual litigants pay any other fees other than a court filing fee?

          • Tony Brogan

            Hello Pat
            I wish no emnity. We all have our crosses. some heavier than others.

            Your question is better addressed to such as RR6 or Greyfox who are better connected than me.

            Please anyone out there can give the info to Pat Flannery

            Blessings to all

          • Pat Flannery

            Thanks Tony. I will wait to read the full complaint before passing judgement. I may even pony up the €138 and join as a litigant if the lawsuit is genuine. Will they accept a check? I am fresh out of siver dollars.

          • Tony Brogan

            Depends what currency the cheque is written in. Maybe you could write a cheque for 5 one ounce silver Maple leafs and I am pretty sure they would take it.
            = 125 euro and likely by the time you get some and deliver to them they will be up a couple of euro each!!!??? Win win

        • Grey Fox

          I agree with you Tony, you are far more articulate than I, we must align mortgage debt with the real value of the property each mortgage reflects, we must institute controls on the banks and we must rebuild the firewall between high st banks and crazy investment banking and we must do quickly and before the Banks regain a footing, there are thousands upon thousands of eligible new customers coming on stream everyday, young people finishing college, getting engaged/married looking for first home etc… and if the fractional reserve system of banking is allowed to continue we will be back in this situation again very quickly, the Banks have proven that the cannot self regulate and the government have proven that they cannot play the role of regulator, all responsible parties to date, have ended up with their collective noses in the same feeding bucket! Is is question of taking a serious look at the likes of Mike Montangne’s “Mathematically Perfected Economy” (MPE)?
          Good luck at Kelkenomics, would love to go but cannot afford it!

          • whatamess

            i can’t afford it either GF!

            and yea Pat,as Tony said,you’ve given up!it’s even in the undertones of what you write…and that’s fine..you’re certainly not alone,but what we need now is EXPLORE all alternatives ( yes even the ‘wacky’ ones and i hasten to add that TB’s contributions here are not deserving of that particularly ugly adjective considering the effort alone of his contributions)

            and your “They accept silver coins there” comment was entirely unnecessary …Just trying to ‘get a rise’ i expect..
            Just read TB’s contributions ( which i suspect you have not ) and there won’t be any ambiguity …i find the man crystal clear in his communication…and massively well read with some great ideas and strategy

            we know it’s all a fuckin’ mess … let’s not make our shitty existence even worse with such disparaging comments of a valued contributor here

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi Greyfox
            I do not think that further regulation of the banks will fix the basic problem of them issuing all the currency as a debt based loan. Even the local credit union can do that I think, as can very branch of the commercial banks.

            we have to be rid of fractional reserve banking. The putting of 10 to 100 times more loans than there is money to cover them. all that extra is created from thin air as a debt.
            The central banks are designed and operated to serve the banks which is now too obviously seen. Where has all the bailout money gone. to the banks. Where did the bailout money come from. from the central banks. How did they get it. Out of thin air. Then charge it as a loan at interest to the account of the government. The peoples national debt.
            What about the interest. Where is the money for that. There is not any. So now what.
            Easy, run the press, ad a zero and produce the money to pay the interest on the debt thereby adding yet more to the money supply.
            What does that do. As I said increases the money supply which dilutes the value of all the rest of the money just produced which in turn reduces the value of the existing currency.
            so you are all right jack because you have no personal debt. Ha ha too bad, you are wrong.
            As the value of all the currency saved is reduced in value by all the newly printed money then your savings are worth less. They call this inflation but misplace the use of the word to confuse you.
            It is inflation of the money supply and makes your pile worth less so the value of your savings are deflated.
            now you will feel deflated too.

            Best action.
            Shut the central bank
            Ban fractional reserve banking.
            Use a national currency issued debt free from treasury
            Issue silver coin as an alternative.
            People will have to pay for whatever situation they are in. If they can’t pay they will be insolvent. change the law that people can retain enough for sustinance and pay off debts with anything left.
            National debt councellors required
            After three years the slate is wiped clear and people start again. It is a debt jubilee with a difference. Nobody gets off the hook scott free, but nobody is condemmed for life in servitude either. Indentureship was for the 19th century not the 21st.

          • Tony Brogan

            Thanks whatamess
            Hopefully between the lot of us we can get ideas solidified and get someone in influence to pick up the ball
            Olive branch is offerred to Pat

    • StephenKenny

      I think he’s reading from the the economics book of the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States of America, and of the Bank of England.
      In fact, I’m dead sure that he’s reading from the Fed’s current economic text book.

      If mortgages were on book at what they are worth, the current players in the US & UK financial systems would have imploded long ago.

      The approach of the world’s central banks is precisely to play this game of ‘pretend and extend’, with the clear hope that if they can buy enough time, the world’s economies will sort themselves out. This is clearly the view of the economics profession.

      “In the real world of economics”……….. unfortunately, we aren’t living in the real world of economics at the moment. ‘Demand’ comes via state intervention, and supply is therefore reorganising itself around that. This has been going on for so long that I doubt that anyone under about 40 has any idea what the ‘real world of economics’ actually looks like.

      Time will tell.

      • Tony Brogan

        Yep, no such thing as a free market anymore. All is manipulated by gov agencies, central banks etc.

        • bonbon

          I wonder where is the “international authority” of von Hayek of the Austrian School and Mont Pelerin Society, to “enforce the free market” ?

          It must be very worrying there is no “strong leader” around to protect that threatened market. They tried Obama “The One”, and that fizzled as he could not sizzle us all with thermonuclear weapons (at least not yet). They will try again that’s for sure.

    • Joe R

      McWilliams the censoring hypocrite.


      See comments 16 — 18 in particular for an account of how he has recently engaged in censorship here on his own site, in relation to the Google article. Specifically he engaged in censorship in relation to post question google and others tax avoidance.

  8. Tony Brogan

    A most informative essay for those interested in the current advent of gold as money.


    • Tony Brogan

      THe above is a complete economic report of the state of the US. Worse than it looks and nowhere near as rosy as onward and upward would indicate.

  9. Direland

    Hi David , fully agree that existing quantum of legacy debt is not representative of what the final outcome will be after “buy to let” + “owner occupier” defaults and write downs occur.However I feel that whatever chance we have of striking a write down with the ECB/EU/IMF is , they will be loathe to include these future losses which our Banks are hiding by lying continually to us.
    In terms of the whole debt problem Ireland has it has many compoents – it’s not just down to the money we “owe” because Trichet forced us into a bail – out or that the two Brian’s follishly guaranteed all Irish Bank liabilities but the underlying over-spending by extremely incompetent Ministers and Senior Civil Servants ( “Tha Manadarins”) who , for instance negotiated Benchmarking on the basis of temporary revenues generated by 9% stamp duty or increased Social Welfare to a multiple of rates elsewhere in the EU to buy votes or “appear” progressive etc.Ever since we adopted deficit spending , the Politicians and Senior Civil Servants started to spend money on useless projects or vote getting benefits without treating this spending as something vital that had to generate a return which would enable it to be repaid.You see if you adopt the mind of a Politician/Senior Civil Servant there are two things they think ( i) Borrowings never have to be repaid ( they are “rolled over” continuously) and (ii) if you need more money you just keep putting your hand into the taxpayers pockets ie there is no limit to what you can take off these people.
    We are just a small Country – Independent for almost 100 years that has been Governed by incredibly incompetent Civil Servants and incompetent/corrupt Politicians all of whom are self – serving in that uniquely Irish way.

    • Grey Fox

      Direland, you are correct, Civil Servants are incompetent but they are a product of their environment and the state has allowed and encouraged a regime of no responsiblily, and insular world of entitlement which begins at entry level where officers see the absolute mayhem and madness but are prevented from speaking out because at the first level who do they speak out to? and the issues which they see are minor at that level and would get no traction in the public domain, as the officer rises through the ranks the institutionalisation is progressive or the officer leaves either way the remaining cadre of civil servants all sing from the same hymn sheet, this along with the oppressive Official secrets Act and prohibition/ total ban on involvement in public debate and politics only serves to cement the institutionalisation and we arrive at were we are now with inept, unproductive, insular civil servants.

  10. Adam Byrne


  11. Tony Brogan

    The solution is pretty simple.
    The Irish government tells the Europeans to go to hell. we are not playing your game anymore.

    We will not pay any more public (aka taxpayer) money to a private business for their losses. That means no one!! not the banks not the homeowner, no more subsidies.

    Do an accounting for the money already paid to the banks on for their losses and register a charge against assets.

    If the banks can not repay then sieze the assets and sell them to recover the money. That is do to the banks what they do to you.

    The bankrupted bank is out of business, the bond holders are burned (to use your terminology) and the taxpayer recovers some misplaced payments.

    The government may now own a bunch of mortgages (assets of the banks) and now sells them off at market value to any investors willing to take them. (that included the current mortagees, who get a once in a lifetime chance to buy back their own discounted mortgage)

    Net result. Government is less in debt and the property owners get a chance to be bailed out at no cost to the taxpayer.
    The country breaks free from the clutches of the European banks and the IMF.
    It may also be the chance to break from the bond of the euro.
    Those in Ireland receiving European subsidies will have to make do without and the country flexes its muscles and goes it alone as it is quite capable of doing. That is exactly what every emmigrant does by voting with their feet.”I am fed up and going to go it alone and make a go of it.”
    Maybe a few of those entrepreneurs would stay home if the country and its people showed some guts.

    • cooldude

      Good stuff Tony. As they say the country needs to grow a pair. All this “poster child” nonsense is just waffle. We need real action.

      • Tony Brogan

        Thanks Cooldude.
        And while we are at it we will let the people use whatever money they wish. we will work out a way for people to pay their taxes based on a gold standard. The bills will be paid adjusted to gold , the money people will pay in taxes however received will be in gold equivilent.

        Silver coinage will be introduced and sponsored by the mint, circulated by the post office now the de facto state bank. The monetary value of the coins set by decree never to drop in value and allowed to rise with inflation and always set 20% above the world price for silver. Give the people something of value to save.The value of the silver will never be set but rise and fall along with everything else as measured against gold

        Savings are used to acquire capital. (Capital is NOT money as it is erroneously often described) Capital invested together with mental capital create innovation and improvement in the economy. Efficiencies lead to greater productivity, which in turn adds value which creates wealth.

        No more ponsi scheme banking investments supported and bailed out by the state. No more central bank debt based slavery, no more fractional reserve ponzi credit schemes.

        There is only one problem with that. Those who have never been free will object. Lifers want to go back to prison, chickens raised in a pen indoors are happy but scared stiff if let out, so it will take a bit of suasion to persuade the receivers from the state that they are better off in the long run to be independent.
        I forget who said it but the quote is ” a government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take it all away!”
        As you said cooldude, time for action.

        • Tony Brogan

          ”The value of the silver will never be set but rise and fall along with everything else as measured against gold ”

          The value of the silver—-Should read
          The world price of silver

  12. Tony Brogan

    BTW talking of action.
    Is there not a tour for the bank debt protest this saturday in Castlebar.
    I am in Newport here and could cycle to Castlebar in support if anyone has the details please

  13. molly

    We are due to exit the IMF/ troika at the end of 2014.
    This government have not learned much about running a country, other than looking after themselves and their cronies .
    When you listen to the government talking they are never in the wrong and they have rigged the the system in there favour.
    The game is rigged in such away to cover the crow park and the pay and perks enjoyed by over payed and over fed people not to forget about the lump sums, pensions, the good by hand shakes and the gravey expanses what a train ride that is and all this while Irish people have to feed there family’s corn flakes for breakfast , dinner and tea.
    Shame on greedy over payed pigs.

  14. tony_murphy

    special case, yeah – pure stupid

    kenny is the specialist of them all..

  15. Philip

    This is not a case of government overspend. It does not matter what Enda or Angela say about special cases. This is a simple case of can’t pay at the citizen level all happening at once.

    1.8M living on the edge – Personal debt 143% of GDP. 140K mortgages in trouble. OK… assuming 200K each, thats about 30Bn. If that suddenly crystalises…what will take the shock?

    Surely they know that coming default on Mortgages has to be headed off or else it will force hands and I believe it’ll ripple thro the entire European banking system.

    There is no money left to fill this hole and a whole raft of unprecedented issues on massive property firesales, moral hazard will come at once.

    Maybe the coming property tax is a rental enforced on us all whether we paid for our houses or not. All loans will be cleared,. But we all (I mean ALL) pay a rental in perpetuity – could be the “equalizer” – but it depends on the rent.

    • molly

      The government is on about how it has put money into the banks to cover people in trouble with there mortgages,this is a joke ,its like trying to buy a million pounds with one pound.
      What do they expect the banksters to do give write downs to the first couple of hundred cases and then go back to the government for more money .
      What’s the government going to do then,maybe chip in some money out of there own well payed wage packets .
      The anger out there is growing by the second and god help this government in December budget.
      Look at the cost of everyday living in Ireland ,if you run a car,or to heat your home or to buy food.
      I see it everytime I go to the supermarket the worried look on people’s faces at the checkout wondering if there’s enough money in the lazer card to pay the shopping bill.
      Some of the TDs should swop places with hard up family’s ,that’s the dose of reality they need or a very large bottle of cop on.

  16. bonbon

    What and who is this all powerful ESM/EFSF? Well see for yourselves !!!

    EIR Team Films The Invisible ESM “Headquarters”

    After attending Thomas Pringle’s case being heard at the European Court of Justice, an EIR (Executive Intelligence Review) film team went to the office of the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) in Luxembourg.

    First of all, the ESM has its own web page but no address. Thus, we went to the EFSF. And what did we see? This place is so low-profile that one suspects they are hiding themselves.

    For the full story :


  17. bonbon


    Oct. 6 (EIRNS)–In a speech to a seminar of the Bank Holding Company Association on Oct. 5, former Kansas City Federal Reserve governor, and current member of the FDIC Board of Directors Thomas Hoenig gave a major presentation entitled “The case fo reinstating Glass Steagall.” The speech is not yet available.
    Coverage in the Minneapolis Star Tribune highlighted Hoenig’s attack on the pending imposition of Basel III capital requirements on the nation’s community banks. Reporter Jennifer Bjorhus says that “the maverick bank regulator repeated his calls to separate investment banking from commercial banking and to reject the tough new bank capital rules that U.S. regulators have proposed.”

  18. I’m working away as usual and the ould Blackberry is a great yoke for catching up on things but functionally quite useless.
    Sue me now why don’t ye.
    Going back to the top of the page where David makes some comment about keeping this blog going because it keeps him sane, or words to that effect, shortly after he started writing this column/blog or whahever its called now, I came back from 28 years in England thinking that this place had for once and for all got itself sorted out. Not too long after I docked back I realised that the place was going to hell in a handcart the same way that england did under loadsamoney Thatcherite monetarism. Thereby leaving me sick as a parrot with the rain and everything else because plan A was to live in France.
    Numpty #1 – Hey Ho
    Anahow, didn’t I start reading yer man, our host, without having the first clue about economics(still don’t) and he kept me here. He revitalised my belief in this perfunctory isolated little island. purely because he could have shagged off and made the same money he was making when he worked for all those big organizations he cut his teeth with,
    But he came home, stuck with it, got dogs abuse for no good reason and still stands among 3 or 4 or 5 whom actually has the guts to call the shots.

    David McWilliams, my friend, don’t ever ever again apologise at the head of this column for what you do.
    I have used your 14×365 formula to get a good friend of mine out of the developer trap. He got out and saved his business and family in 09.
    The service you have given to those of us who have listened to you quietly and taken action will probably never be recognised by those in power.
    But we’re all here, and we’re still listening.
    So drive on.
    Good man yourself.
    Never and by no means never justify what you do again.
    You’ve saved thousands.

    With the height of respect


  19. misticmonk

    If we get our money back for the promisory note and sell our ownership of the banks to the ecb for a premium won’t any future liabilities go to the new owner.

    • Harper66

      Hi Misticmonk,

      That will never happen. The ECB can’t/won’t buy our banks. It seems bank debt is under the remit of the esm. The esm is duty bound to pay market value at the time of purchase… so not good news for basket case banks…For example, AIB and BOI were valued at 8 billion. A slight problem seeing as The State has injected almost €29 billion into Bank of Ireland, AIB and Permanent TSB.


      The promissory notes are shadowy instruments and it is near impossible to find much concrete information on them.

      Here is a slideshow by Karl Whelan from Irish economy.ie someone sent me awhile back it deals a little with Anglo (IBRC) and the promissory notes –


      Bondwatch Ireland is another great source of information.

      The problem is, is that this is done business and trying to get all parties involved to go back and reopen that can of worms is damn near impossible.

      Thanks to the actions (or inaction) of the previous government and the present government we will be stuck with this debt. Our bargaining power is gone. I imagine the bank debt will be repackaged under longer terms (when things get really bad here) but as far as I can see one way or another we are stuck with the debt.

      I am of course open to correction.

  20. bonbon

    Glass-Steagall – Split the Difference

    There was a new editorial in London’s {Financial Times} calling for full Glass-Steagall bank separation, with a polemic against Vickers’ ring-fencing, and the Volcker Rule, on Oct. 18, after testimony in the British Parliament. See:

    It will ask to register – it is indeed free.

  21. bonbon

    Draghi tells Bundestag, he’s running bailouts on behalf of the German taxpayer!

    Oct. 25, 2012 (EIRNS)–ECB President Mario Draghi came out in full defense of his new bond-purchase plans, in a speech before the German Bundestag yesterday. The meeting between Draghi and members of Germany’s Parliament was designed as a sign that the ECB and German Chancellor Angela Merkel were fighting for the euro shoulder-to-shoulder.
    Draghi certainly did not convince his most outspoken critics in the Bundestag, like Frank Schaeffler, who told the media afterwards that his concern over inflationary consequences of the ECB’s policies have not been removed by Draghi’s remarks but even confirmed.
    “The exchange has been very productive, wide ranging,” Draghi claimed after the meeting. “It’s been an important component of confidence-building, trust building between what the ECB does and how what it does is viewed by German public opinion.” Draghi said the new bond plan was needed to remove “unfounded fears about the future of the euro area, …and the only way to do so was to establish a fully credible backstop against disaster scenarios.”
    Draghi added: “The citizens of the euro area can be confident that we will remain permanently alert to risks to price stability.” A remark of his (exact quote not available) that he was doing all of this just to protect the German taxpayer, was the peak of Draghi’s absurd show at the Bundestag.
    Norbert Barthle, the senior conservative and staunch pro-euro man on the Bundestag budget committee, which must approve any future bailouts, called Draghi’s performance “very convincing,” adding: “That’s why we can send the message to German citizens that the inflation fears expressed here and thereare unfounded.”
    Whether German citizens see that Barthle’s way, is doubtful.

  22. redriversix

    Morning all

    How are we all today ?

    Hope everyone is in good form and enjoying the show we now call Government ?

    I do hope that all this financial debate is done with the knowledge that the present situation is here to stay.?

    Its not personal,its only business.

    This is a new era in our civilization, an era of debt,slavery.asset stripping,care-takers NOT Government.
    Where lies,deceit,spin and waffle have the high ground.

    Society is so dumbed down now,Government can do what they want now,without any fear,while people are Sheeple and prefer to live in fear.

    Don,t get me wrong,I acknowledge the good work some people do with getting information out to people and they should be commended..:

    Awaken Ireland
    Awaken Longford
    The Ballyhea protestors
    Claire Leonard/Direct Democracy
    Ben Gilroy
    Seamus Mcdonagh protecting his Farm in Limerick
    Shane Ross
    Anti-Eviction Ireland
    Thomas pringle
    Steven Donnely T.D
    & the men , women & children of this Nation trying to survive,one day at a time.

    Their are quiet battles being fought every day in The Courts of this land up and down the Country.
    These cases, and they people who fight them ,live on charity & donations and the hospitality of strangers who offer them a bed for the night.

    I am grateful to them all

    But until everyone stands up….for themselves & each other..these Criminal Governments and Bankers around the World will continue their Journey to a New era where people are merely figures on a Profit & loss sheet.

    So …..don,t waste your time on the “big picture”

    Look out for you,your family and those that seek help

    As for Government,its just a question of mind over matter…?

    I don’t mind ..because they don’t matter

    you matter.

    Enjoy your day

    • Grey Fox

      Well said RR6 I concur 110%, the rising is happening in small corners all over our land, bring it on I say!

    • whatamess

      So …..don,t waste your time on the “big picture”

      i imagine you say this out of exhaustion and frustration RR6

      but that’s not a waste of time … let’s keep our eyes and ears open and mind sharp .

      you are of course perfectly right when you say to first take best care of yourself and family …

    • molly

      We know the facts and its all one big con job,we need new people and new thinking and untill that happens we are on an uphill struggle .
      My worrie is this present government could do even more damage to the low to middle income family’s and they are destroying the social fabrics of our country.
      How dare they ,do they the government not have to live here as we’ll ,beside the fact that they are over payed to the extreme surly they at some stage they have to wake up an listen to the very people that put them there in the first place.

  23. DC

    Dont Believe the Hype!!!!

    This Govt’s use of spin would put Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell to shame.

    Ireland a special case – yeah right!!!


    I often wonder how Europe (politicos) see Ireland.

    The patronising arrogance of Charlie McCreevey.

    The grab all attitude of McSharry etc.

    Some points to remember.

    Ireland implemented a blanket bank guarantee without consulting its european partners.

    ireland has consistently said no to corporate tax reform. Yes Ireland is a tax haven for US comapnies.


    Ireland has said no to a Tobin tax.

    Ireland has demanded that there are no changes to CAP and its structure.

    Ireland to go back to the markets in 2013 – yeah right !!

    So we go back to the markets and incur a higher interest rate than available under current arrangements – only to further damage our economy.

    Just to get the Troika off our back – which is probably the only instrument for reform in this country!!

    Ireland is mired in private debt – this is not a troika issue – this requires immediate action from our govt with regArds to insolvency legislation.

    Ireland’s overall debt burden – private, corporate, and sovereign is second only to japan – a country that is now termed as “a bug in search of a windshield”


    But hey Noonan says – we are on track.

    Dont believe the Hype!!!!!

    • Philip

      The Troika is the only instrument of effective reform that Ireland has witnessed. That’s a worrying but salient thought. Certainly a lot of what is traditional gombeen driven status quo SHOULD now be toppled.

      Trouble is…it still has not happened. Same old same old are still hanging on.

      • bonbon

        The killer brigade now taking away medicine from the ill in Portugal and Greece, literally killing them – euthanasia, you claim as “reformers”? Well we can quote that as this gets murderous.

        That’s twice this blog has been defaced today and counting. First with a call for Hitler, now a call for the Troikas.

        Well well, I wonder what DMcW said that triggered this…

  24. Deco

    Time to quit the EU. Default. Get out. Get clear of the nonsense. Time to live within our means. And to accept the need to live within our means.

    Because this relentless borrowing habit is not working. Since 1996, we have been on a relentless trajectory of relentless debt accumulation in either one sector or another. Debt has become the economic model. And it is not working. The whole thing is just making us more and more into debt slaves.

    • Tony Brogan

      Hi Deco
      i feel you are entirely correct about the debt based economic model.
      however while an irish problem it is not unique to ireland. In fact it is an international problem formatted from a deliberate plan to make debt slaves of the world.
      I see the banking system as the tool of these elites whoever they are or however defined.
      The central banking system is the main tool. governments have given away the right to monetery policy although I go a step further and say no national or corporate istitution should have anything to do with setting monetary policy. It is a natural function of a free market place.

      Not withstanding that it is imperitive that as a people we remove the central bank. close it, destroy it. Because of its threat to us and our implied threat to it and because it is the essece and center of the control of the people it will be a fight to the death to be rid of it.
      The PTB will kill to maintainit. Abraham Lincoln was about to bring money production under the control of the state, Garfield I believe the same, the Kennedys’ had plans in action to issue silver backed currency. All died.Saddam was to sell oil in euros and abandon the $. Gadaffi proposed an African gold dinar (ancient islamic coin) as a Pan African currency. Iran is dealing in gold currency for trade.

      The money control is central to the enslavery of the peoples of the world. They will kill to maintain the system.

      It is essential that the people themselves are educated and that they will rise in anger to insist that money be returned to its rightful owners, the people themselves. Politicians are not able to operate alone,
      We will be saved by the Internet reformation as The Daily Bell describes it. for the forst time informationis transmitted and received instantly. Statements can be read and received around the world in seconds. Opinions can be exchanged with people in the next chair or accross the globe.
      Ireland as a small nation encompassed by ocean is a small enough entity where physical travel from one side of the country to another is easily done. The counrty can be unified in policy and thought over an issue. All people are equally affected by decisions.
      democracy is more easily practiced.
      The population is highly educated, and if educated readily mobilized.
      Ireland is large enough to make a difference to its neighbours. In my opinion Ireland is perfectly situated to lead the world in condemnation of the banks and the banking system.
      Ireland is one of the worsed economic cases in the world and thus the motivation the throw off the yoke og debt based slavery.
      I’ve not been involved ‘on the ground’ with the problems but others here are. RR6 and greyfox to name two.

      So, yes we abandon the Euro but not necessarily the Trading block.
      We close the central bank.
      Assume a national currency.
      Give the people the right to use any currency and impliment silver to give a choice for a commodity based currency that is inflation proof and not dependent on its value by government fiat.
      Revoke all odious debt (that fostered on the people for no benefit to the people.This is the debt Thomas Pringle is suing to have overturned as unconstutional.

    • Philip

      Wont happen by choice.

      We need to plan for what to do with the $h1t reallty hits the fan – and basically my primary worry is our ability to work together as a national people will be challenged.

      • Tony Brogan

        Yes that that is the greatest challenge to find a unifying leader that will draw the people together.We need a Hitler, DeGaulle a Churchill

        • StephenKenny

          Is it time for the ‘strong leader’ already? I was hoping for a few more years before those that revel in war and destruction crawl to the top of the dung heap.

          • Tony Brogan

            You are in a war as destructive as one who drops bombs. communities destroyed houses abandoned, People in despair.
            The enemy is not obvious but is infull view.
            I am hear to help They say and then continue the destuction.
            Needs a leader to identify the problem. ]
            a leader to rally the people
            a leader to point out the way to vanquish the enemy
            a leader to reconcile and rebuild to prosperity.

            A leader will appear when the people are ready but not till then

          • bonbon

            That’s the Austrian School now in full swing – von Hayek tried to nod and wink like Friedman, but these are the people who actually put Hitler into power – Norman Montague of the BoE and Brown Brothers Harrimann of NY, with Prescott Bush Granpa.

            I have quoted at length here von Hayek’s open call for an “international authority” to “enforce free-trade”. What more does one want? Keynes is exactly the same, but more direct. These would try to foist another Führer on the EU and the USA, and Draghi was lining up for the job here. Merkel does not fit that bill at all.

            It is simply insane to put deGaulle into the same dung heap with Hitler. Next we will hear FDR was a “socialist”, a “big gov’mint” guy – he smashed their plans. This insanity was just under the surface, now has finally broken out for all to see.

            The “Business Plot”, which is well documented, shows what and why financiers are capable of.

          • Tony Brogan

            Typical of bon bon to arrive and miscontrue comments.
            It is simply a case of noting that in order for change to occur a people must coalesce and that is usually with a strong leader.
            Seems people on this blog equate that with a dung heap and so far from what I read that is the majority opinion of the current crop of leaders.

            When you vote for something better you will get something better.

            Phillip is correct, getting the people to work together will be a problem.

          • Tony Brogan

            simply put bon bon you are an a-hole with an addled brain. you read too many mystery novels. Looking for the culprit in a who dun it. grow up.

          • bonbon

            You, mister gold merchant, just wrote you want a Hitler, and defaced the name of deGaule. You actually wrote that!

            It is to me not surprising, it might be to others.

            How dare you call for fascism! You have defaced this blog! How dare you deface deGaulle!

            How dare anyone attempt a joke like that. You cannot help it, it is the result of von Hayek, which I warned about and will continue to do so.

            “putting the people to work” – arbeit macht frei, is no surprise from the school that produced Goolsbee, that DMcW quoted last blog, who wants the “busses to run on time”. It is inevitable that “economics” produced your outburst.

        • Tony Brogan

          Bon bon
          Not that I really care but DeGaulle was a pompous ass.
          He visited Canada to attend Expo 67 and as a visitor on the steps of the Montreal city hall in 1967 said ‘Vive Le Quebec Libre’, in a rousing speech.


          how is that for behaviour in a sovereign state. Advocating the secession of a large population.

          not long after in Oct 1970 a british diplomat James c
          Cross was kidnapped and a French politician Piere Laporte was killed by by Quebec seperatists


          Martial law was declared in Canada.

          So much for your reverence for DeGaulle

          • Adam Byrne

            Forget about sovereign states Tony, they are fake constructs.

            People can say what they want, freedom of speech. If that’s what he believed, why couldn’t he say it?

            If a new ‘sovereign’ state came into being that would adopt your gold/silver policies in full, would you burn your Canadian passport and go and live there and call them ‘sovereign’.

            I can’t believe an outside the box thinker like yourself falls for this nationality mullarkey Tony. If you do, then they have you by the balls just as much as they have a Tesco shopper.

            Passports, nationalities, sovereignty – evil, evil concepts designed to divide and conquer free men.

          • bonbon

            Sounds great to hear such “passion for free speech”. I do believe I hear a strong echo of George Soros’s Open Society mantra, though. Nation states being evil and the free empire gods?

            Did you meet George in the Carribean while running the ponzi scheme? At that time George was managing the Queens personal Quantum fund, there, and a lot of it vaporized with LTCM – amusement not recorded at Buckingham. A cozy little nest what?

          • Adam Byrne

            Haha, what a vivid imagination you have Mr. bonbon.

          • bonbon

            Canada, the Crown Dominion, would be better off, as we all would be with the British Empire disolved. Then the frictions within would vanish. Canada has a major challenge now, the Arctic, and cooperation with Russia is of paramount importance, as with D.C. for NAWAPA XXI.

            Who should take Buckingham seriously with this frontier opening up? deGaulle spent enough time in London during the War, to know exactly, as FDR told Churchill, colonialism is over.

          • Tony Brogan

            Of course as DeGaulle lost his north african colonies, voiolently, and could not steal back North America, but not for want of trying.
            At least Britain gave up possessions peacefully for the most part.

          • Tony Brogan

            French politician =
            French Canadian Politician

          • bonbon

            deGaulle faced off the OAS, his own Army faction, to end colonialism, and they threatened civil war and attempted assassination many times. At this exact period JFK was murdered by the very same operatives.

            A Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals, of the fatherlands, is his vision, not what the British have foisted on us with the Euro. It is time to get on with the delayed reconstruction, as de Gaulle wished.

  25. Clare Leonard

    All men who went to war!!!!.

    We shall use our intelligence
    to win this battle, not guns.
    He who is weak must be smart,
    and smart we will be.
    Under our constitution we remain a
    sovereign people.
    We have not given away or rights.
    We can and will change any law we wish.

    • Tony Brogan

      And so they are to a degree. Thus is history written. I do not recall one account of anybody of significance in history books who did not fight battles and win wars, or lose them.
      seems to me that is why Ireland has a chance to be a sovereign country because of such people.
      Still, name your own heroes/heroines and they will do as well.
      Gandi perhaps, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa.

      No need to fight me over a detail. The principle stands, The country needs a leader to unify and move the people in the right direction. All complain about the lack of governance and leadership.
      May be a modern day Grace O’Malley will suffice. Not only was she a pirate but a diplomat too, and an equal to Liz the 1st.

      So who is on your list? Who is out there can do the job?

      • bonbon

        You just wrote above you need Hitler. Stop asking others, we know what you want.

        Anyone you propose will now be soiled by that outburst.

        We had blue-shirts, the are now in government. We know what fascism means and exactly where it comes from.

        • Tony Brogan

          I have met people like you bob bon
          Intelectual giants with feable reasoning.
          Sharp minds with a warped brain.
          Hanging judges with a predetermined outlook
          You may not have noticed in your childish glee that I have not recommended anyone. We certainly need a leader strong enough to see through your ambitions for mega plans and centralized government actions.

          Your mind is enptied by LaRouche, filled and propagandised with rubbish.
          You are a follower of a man known at different times to have embraced communism and fascism. a man who organised students in to cadres that beat their opposition with baseball bats.
          you follow a man who set up a collective, a cult where he decided who would live with whom. who would have sex and who would not. who were expected to donate every penny to the cause. and were expected to sell assets and give to laRouche and you have the nerve to accuse me of anything at all.

          LaRouche set up an intelegence service and then pretended to be press reporters to gain access to notable people and ask questions.

          You have the bare faced effrontory but you have been programed not to respond except to theaten legal response.

          You can not deny what I have written. It is not my opinion but what others have discovered and written.
          It has already been posted several times on this blog and not just by me. You ignored it last time but you are unable to this time

          You are a poor excuse for a being. You are the one who is soiled.

          Have a pleasent day tomorrow everyone and maybe I’ll see one or two in Castlebar at the 12.45 assembly point.

          • bonbon

            It takes no smarts to read what you wrote above, calling for a Hitler, and smearing deGaulle. Well at least your true thoughts are now there for all to see.

            You wrote, and I quote for all to see in comment :

            “Yes that that is the greatest challenge to find a unifying leader that will draw the people together.We need a Hitler, DeGaulle a Churchill”.

            Now you can wiggle all you want, and try flinging mud, but that is exactly what I expected to hear. I know exactly how von Hayek nudged and winked like Friedman in the Mont Pelerin Society, doing their bit for the British Empire. von Hayek called for an “international authority” to “enforce the rules of free-trade”. It is inevitable the Austrian schooler’s must resort to totalitarianism, they do not have any other option. For them the IMF and UN are tools to be used for exactly that purpose, and the Troika is exactly this.

            You cannot deny what you wrote.

          • Tony Brogan

            True , it takes no smarts for you to imagine what you do. That you just demonstated and it is obvious you have none, and you’r a bloody coniving, deceitful masterpiece of chicanery to boot.

          • bonbon

            You did call for a Hitler, there is no mistaking that plain text. Nothing made up on my part there.

            Why not simply apologize for the blunder, if in fact it was one, and clear up the matter? Politicians today are not known for modesty, it seems they are not the only ones.

            Let’s dissolve the British Empire, and get on with the future. Glass-Steagall will be a great help for that!

          • Tony Brogan

            I call BS to that

    • bonbon

      Where do you see “direct democracy” in the Irish Constitution might I ask? Do you intend to change the constitution, might I ask again?

      You know where that comes from, I sincerely hope.

  26. Tony Brogan


    For whom does the bell toll,
    Is the Daily Bell right or wrong about the economy/

    One thing they are right about– the very people that caused the problem are the ones claiming to be fixing it— Yes , Gold star,, the central Banks.

    • Tony Brogan

      Thanks Dorothy

      Germany has never asked for an audit. Just took a note of assuance from their good friends the Yanks and Brits.
      Yank will prove to be a good name as that is what happened to other countries gold, yanked out from under.
      Same in London

      i doubt they will allow an audit as an audit will prove it is not there. Anything they find may be gold plated tungsten. Better take a drill.
      If no audit is allowed …what are you hiding. Lose, lose.
      The jig is up, and the hour is nigh, it is the 11th hour, the sun is setting. Whatever

      Buy silver and gold to protect from a currency crash.
      gold can double over night. It went from 35-80 and then to 650 in 18 months, topping overnight at 850. 7 times 1700 is 12,000.
      Add a little spice as things are way worse today so how about 20.000 in 5-10 years.
      Silver at historical ratio 15:1 and it looks like 1500 silver except there is none left so it could be 5:1 or 4-5000 silver.

      Yes I may not like the world I live in and I can’t eat it and the gov will confiscate it and some one will rob me.
      The alterative is I have no money to buy food so I have nothing to eat and I’ll be looking for some one to rob. Would you rather be a robbor or a robbee?

      Yes it is a bloody mess alright.
      I think II’ll take RR6 advice and look after myself and bugger the rest of the tribe on the dung heap.
      At the end of the day I do not have enough for anyone else to worry about.
      I live on a boat. ride a bike and live cheaply. I am retired with bugger all pension.
      I have to stay fit as I can’t afford the medical bills!!

  27. Dorothy Jones

    Govt bonds are the new bubble so…. Bloody hell

    • Tony Brogan

      exactly so Dorothy
      There is no money in bonds. Last of the safe money resorts will bust when interest rates move up. All a question of confidence. First one out the door keeps the cash.
      Last out the door loses the shirt.
      Where to go then.
      Seems like gold and silver. First in keeps the cash.
      Last in loses shirt.
      Your choice.
      When confidence in currency is lost. Not yet but coming soon. SOON well next year or two is my guess and guess it is.
      Case of no rush but why wait.

      • Dorothy Jones

        Have one in Langtons on Sat for me Tony. Kilkenny is great and the folk at Langtons couldn’t be nicer :) Kilkenomics is brilliant.

        • Tony Brogan

          OK I will look for Langtons. I’ll toast your health and success.

          • Tony Brogan

            Saw Langtons as I cycled from the station tonight.

            Looks like a great town just from a quick glance as I went through.
            I will have a good walk around tomorrow.

  28. molly

    Could gold and silver become the next big scam look what is going on with paper money and electronic money.
    When the scammers are looking for new ways to scam us out of our hard earned money it’s only a matter if time ,who’s to say its already going on .
    Who are the scammers ????????????

    • Tony Brogan

      good question Molly
      There are a lot of scams alright but everyone makes the real metal more valuable

      Never ever buy any paper gold. Stocks, bonds, exchange traded funds or schemes where gold is offered at a 20% discount, or futures contracts
      All are suspect as there are many more paper promised to deliver gold than there is gold to deliver.

      Unless you are an expert assayer have nothing to do with large bars or coins and small bars from suspect places.

      I was told today ( unconfirmed) that the West australian Mint has problems with counterfeit coins. Gold plated other metal.

      Deal only with a highly reputable dealer.
      Buy only coins of well regarded mints. I have stuck to Canadian Maple Leaf one ounce coins.

      Do not store in a bank vault of any kind. Keep at home in a drawer or somewhere and tell no one, or in a private storage facility. Repeat–not a bank. put under the rose bush or in the attic. Don’t forget to leave an instruction somewhere. Who to trust is another problem. You will have to figure it out.

    • Tony Brogan

      Who are the scammers???
      Likely selcted employees of the cenral banks themselves.Fractional reserve banking started in the gold market so it is no supprise as it is legalized fraud.
      Jeffrey Christian of CCM asserted that the London bullion Pool only had one ounce of physical for every 100 paper ounces sold. As to who has substituted tungsten bars plated with gold for the real thing, nobody has ventured an opinion on that.Just take an educated guess.

  29. bonbon

    Before this blog heads south into Tiger territory :

    Glass-Steagall in Icelandic Parliament

    Yesterday, Icelandic parliamentarian Álfheidur Ingadóttir re-introduced her bank- separation resolution, which has 16 co-sponsors, in the Icelandic Parliament, Althingi, followed by a one-hour debate. The resolution calls for the Finance Ministry to prepare guidelines to implement a full bank separation by February 1, 2013. The resolution will now be considered by the Economic and Trade Committee, and then come up for a vote in the Althingi.

    The debate occurred after last week’s release of a banking reform report by three “wise men,” which called for seriously considering Glass-Steagall-style reform, but it is known that Finance Minister Steingrímur Sigfússon thinks that this was not strong enough. During the debate, in addition to Álfheidur, the resolution’s second co-sponsor, Helgi Hjörvar, the chairman of the Economic and Trade Committee, spoke in favor of the resolution; and Pétur H. Blöndal from the Independent Party, the only party which had not had a member on the co-sponsor list, stated that the only reason why their party had not done so, was that they had their own bank-separation proposal. This leads one to believe that they will also support the resolution when it comes up for a vote, which is expected to occur at the end of November.

  30. bonbon

    More hot air from Gilmore -
    Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore has said he is very confident of securing a “timely” deal on Ireland’s bank debt with European partners, allowing Ireland to exit its EU-ECB-IMF programme next year as planned.
    After talks in Berlin with German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle this morning, Mr Gilmore said Berlin understood that programme success and bank debt were interlinked, and that Germany would co-operate with Ireland on improving the sustainability of its programme.

    “We’re in the business of exiting the programme not entering a new one,” said Mr Gilmore, expressing his appreciation for Berlin’s support in improving the sustainability of Ireland’s programme.

    “The Troika is clearly focused on how Ireland gets out of the programme; to do that we have to resolve the issue of the bank debt,” he said. “I’m confident that we can exit the programme and I’m confident that we can get a timely deal on bank debt.” http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1026/breaking11.html

  31. Dorothy Jones

    Good man David. Well done. You are great.

  32. Dorothy Jones

    Brilliant. Fantastic as always David.

  33. Dorothy Jones

    And you were right David Morgan Kelly backed you up on that. Arthur Cox?

  34. Dorothy Jones

    Morgan Kelly!!! Ryan you twat

  35. Dorothy Jones

    Ryan on your salary…you keep a straight face….david get him on that

    • Adam Byrne

      TURGIDY IS A PLONKER. I didn’t watch it, forgot about it and BBC2 don’t show ‘Have I Got News For You’ on Friday’s (which I wouldn’t watch in a fit – hate comedy) but I wanted to see Conrad Black on it tonight.

      I’ll catch David with the TURD on YouTube I guess. Black too. Night Ireland.

  36. Dorothy Jones


    ….and when it’s over you almost wish that you ould have all the bad stuff back so that you have the good

    We found love in a hopeless place….

  37. Tony Brogan

    Hi Dorothy
    There are 5 postings in a row from you but no connect to what david said.
    i am missing something here.Are these private emails posted?

    any help??

    • Adam Byrne

      Dorothy is watching the Late Late Show Tony (or was) and commenting in real time as people do on Twitter.

      I think they call it ‘TURFING’ – watching TV and Surfing the net at the same time.

      Watching the Late Late Show could be more like TURDING.

  38. Harper66


    A Dublin-based TD could have a package worth almost €200,000, including unvouched expenses and two secretaries or parliamentary assistants at a combined salary of €70,000, in the first year after election. With vouched expenses he or she could be pulling in about €210,000. If the TD lived in a far-flung district of Co Kerry, extra travel expenses would bring the figure to about €235,000 — and if the deputy were an Independent there would be €41,152 on top of that, making a total of about €276,000 before tax.

    I heard FG TD on the radio Wednesday night trotting out that idiotic phrase “good housekeeping” he also used the classic gombeenism “running a country is like running a household”. Fair play to him while trotting out the gombeen standards he also managed to fit in a few condescending phrases which have become synonymous with this current government such as “get real” and “living in the real world”.

    Living in the real the world? Who are these people trying to kid.

    • bonbon

      Well they got that silly phrase from Angela Merkel, who enraged German voters with such rubbish recently. She got the nickname Schwäbische Hausfrau, with frugal purse strings.

      I wonder how many Irish voters fell for that “family values” populist ploy.

      FG is populist.

  39. bonbon

    Outside the Room of Special Cases :

    Finland Discusses Advantages of a Euro-Exit

    Oct. 26 (EIRNS)–The London {Financial Times} warned today that the “once-unimaginable” could happen if, while all eyes are on Greece, Finland decides to leave the euro from its position of strength. Heikki Neimelaeinen, chief executive of the Municipal Guarantee Board (an entity of the Finance Ministry), says “we have started openly discussing the mechanism of euro exiting, without indicating that we will initiate such a process.”
    The recent research paper from Nordea bank in fact suggests that if Finland introduces a parallel (national) currency to the euro, the former will immediately jump, attracting investors.
    The {Financial Times}’s Gillian Tett warns: “It is worth remembering that most Finns abhor those ECB [European Central Bank] bailouts; having embraced creative destruction in their own history, they now loathe moral hazard with a puritan zeal. And the longer the Eurozone crisis rumbles on, the easier it becomes to imagine the once-unimaginable.
    “Perhaps it is time for ECB President Mario Draghi to visit Helsinki; if nothing else, Nordea’s report is a timely reminder that it is not just Greece and Spain that now have the capacity to surprise.”

  40. redriversix

    Afternoon all

    Their were three types of people on the TITANIC

    1/Those who knew it would sink and tried to survive.

    2/Those who thought it might sink but figured they would be okay either way.

    3/ and those who resisted the very idea it would sink and ridiculed the above until it was too late.

    Human nature

    Hard to help people who don’t want or ask for help.

    Remember most people do not accept the truth until it is too late.

    In History,the majority of Revolutions,”Arab springs” our own War of Independence are carried out by a small minority of people,the Majority treat them with disdain at the time

    Last night watching the Late Late Show I was surprised to see how uncomfortable Ryan Turbidy was from the outset talking about this Financial War [my description not his].

    Again this format of Audience discussion,its intention, to turn neighbor against Neighbor rather than focusing on the real leaders of this social crime which ,of course are the Banks.

    Brendan Burgess@askaboutmoney.ie appeared hopelessly out of touch and quite angry from the start,perhaps he was nervous about sharing the stage with Mcwilliams and David Hall ?,cant remember the ladies name.

    I now believe Mr Burgess opinion is not independent , does he earn Money from his website from Banks ?

    I am only interested in a level playing for people,the tools people need to help themselves while suffering from debt,job-loss and every other aliment that has happened during this unparallelled crisis are already their/here.We do not need permission to look after ourselves first,We do not need permission to stand up for ourselves once we start being honest.

    As I have traveled around trying to help people who ask for it,I am constantly shocked at the poor professional advice people are given by people who charge fees.

    Here is what I suggest people do…

    1/Be Honest with yourself [ brutally ]

    2/Be honest with your Wife/husband/partner

    3/Do a household budget..include EVERYTHING.

    4/Print of a statement of means form from the courts.ie website

    5/Notify your creditors in writing that you are experiencing difficulty but will attempt to work with them as best you can,If you are suffering from a high level of stress,ask them to only contact you in writhing ,this eliminates stressful phone-calls throughout the day.

    6/The day you start this process is the day the rest of your life starts.KEEP A DIARY of all contacts & correspondence.

    7/SLASH all unsecured debt to a bare minimum.

    8/Protect your family

    9/Exercise and eat properly,get plenty of sleep.Do not GO hungry to pay your Mortgage

    10/ Try and practice living in the day..one day at a time.Projecting what may or may not happen is a KILLER and is of no benefit.Do your best,one day at a time,if its not good enough today ?,don’t worry about it..their is ALWAYS tomorrow.Once you begun this process , don’t “live it” once you know where you stand,you should only spend five or six hours a Week monitoring your situation.Life is for living,NOT ENDURING.

    11/If you have mortgage debt,contact the provider,explain your situation..,make a proposal, A REALISTIC PROPOSAL..FEAR has a habit of “diluting”the truth.KEEP IT VERY SIMPLE..during this process you will learn that your biggest enemy is your own mind.

    12/Protect your family

    13/Do not be afraid of The Court system,if you are contacting debtors,keeping records,trying to do the best you can,you have nothing to be afraid of..it is not easy,but their is plenty of FREE support or advice available TODAY.

    14/ Contacts
    citizens information.ie

    15/ I could go on & on but I hope this snippet is of some help.you do not need to suffer anymore but you do need to face your reality and act accordingly…remember..all this will pass,nothing is forever..I do pretend to have all the answers and no two cases are the same but the foundation for survival is the same.

    My name is Barry Callaghan.I am Red River Six.I live in South County Dublin.
    If you would like to talk or have some one listen,in confidence contact me redriversix@gmail.com or 0871749372

    Have a great day.

    Barry ………RR6

    • Adam Byrne

      Nice one Barry, sorry we did not get too much time the day that David lectured at Maynooth but I was in a rush to go and play a football semi-final (I have now blissfully retired – again!). We’ll surely meet up at some point in the future, that’s some great advice you have given there.

      • redriversix

        Hi Adam

        Thanks for the comment

        I hope to get to Kilkenny and maybe we can hook up there ?

        I was glad to meet you in Maynooth,no matter how short the time was….Hope you won the semi-final and retired with your reputation intact,its amazing the talent some football headhunters miss..!!

        Have a great day

        Barry RR6

        • Adam Byrne

          Yep, I will be there Barry, looking forward to it. Tony and Colin too, should be some fireworks, haha.

          Nah, it’ll be very civilized – unless Mr. bonbon turns up that is!

          My number is 086 177 0640, just text me if/when you make it. Email: adamabyss@hotmail.com

          • Tony Brogan

            Looking forward to friendship, cameraderie, and conviviality. (Just don’t tread on the tail of my coat-mind that!{:-)

          • bonbon

            Well I can only say imagine what Gulliver would note in his diary while visiting Kilkenny. Would it be the Room of Special Cases, or another “lost room”? Think out of your shoes! Jonathan Swift is there!

          • redriversix

            Cheers Adam

            Hope to get down for Friday Morning….

            See you there


          • Colin

            Looking forward to meeting up with you on Friday. Of course it will be civilised. I’ll be in touch in due course.

          • Adam Byrne

            Mr. bonbon, why are you not coming? Or are you just coming incognito?

    • Tony Brogan

      Well put Barry
      I am looking forward to another toast to your great endevours. See you at K’s

    • molly

      A lot if advice you end up paying for is poor advice and its the same as getting a death collecting agent to collect money outstanding to small company’s .
      I am baffled by people using company’s to pay there bills and they charge a fee so people end up further in the red.
      Your advice is honest sound and correct ,my blood pressure rises when I here people putting there mortgage before feeding themselves and there family’s .
      Food , heat , and keep warm , should be first before paying the Mortgage or the rent.

    • whatamess

      superb stuff in fairness RR6 …i will try follow and integrate all your suggestions into my life.. your very practical advice is MUCH appreciated …pont 1 and 2 above are my Achilles heel but i needed that sound advice laid out in front of me…cheers

  41. redriversix

    TYPO..”I do NOT pretend to have all the answers” even I don’t know everything …!!!!!


  42. bonbon

    Obama Attacks Glass Steagall

    President Obama has finally come clean on his categorical opposition to Glass Steagall, in the most recent edition of Rolling Stone Magazine. As LaRouche has emphasized, this nation can no longer endure with Obama as president. Glass-Steagall remains the only alternative to hyperinflation.

    Watch this short LPAC video report http://larouchepac.com/node/24311

  43. Tony Brogan


    A fairly good article on why gold as money is superior to the fiat unlimited we have today.
    Why it restricked the business cycle to minor ebbs and flows and does not lead to booms and busts.

    Worth the read for those trying to understand.

    • Tony Brogan


      • bonbon

        “Strangled” reconstruction is more precise. The Marshall Plan would never have happened, nor FDR’s RFC with a golden stranglehold on the generation of public credit based on national banking.

        Anything that attempts to restrict the absolutely essential recovery of the physical economy, shown graphically here at the Triple Curve, is part of the problem that produced the stratospheric monetary curves that have threatened to destroy us :


        • Tony Brogan

          The point is there would never have been the depression or the wars if a strict gold standard was in use.
          It is the abandonment of the standard that leads to the voluminous increase in debt based credit that finances the wars and secondly creates the subsequent hyperinfationary boom and the associated bust.

          With a gold standard there would have been no requirement for a Marshall Plan. It was yet another government, central bank plan used to paper over the results of their previous medling.

          In fact the whole series of wars have been financed over the last 2-300 years by the same banking interests and their sycophant politicians.

          With the gold standard your much admired curves would be corsetted straight lines.

        • bonbon

          It is easy to say “never would have been”. The 1929 crash followed the roaring twenties, the Versailles Treaty rape of Germany. That foisted debt was to be payed in gold, and could not possibly be. So 1923 hyperinflation took off. During these years Mussolini and Hitler were being groomed. Irving Fisher is widely known to have gotten it totally wrong with Austrian School logic.

          So with the background now cleared up, the RFC, Reconstruction Finance Corp. of Franklin Roosevelt, started the Tennessee Valey Authority Reconstruction of the poorest part of the USA, inspired by the Shannon Scheme, and a model for the 3-Gorges in China. During JFK’s time the NAWAPA was planned for Canada as well. These are national public credit inspired programs, which gold would try to strangle.

          Well let gold just try it.

          • Tony Brogan

            “It is easy to say “never would have been”. The 1929 crash followed the roaring twenties, the Versailles Treaty rape of Germany. That foisted debt was to be payed in gold, and could not possibly be. So 1923 hyperinflation took off”

            The 1929 crash was preceeded by the 1920′s credit fueled boom, which was preceeded by the first world war which was preceeded by the abandonment of the gold standard by both Britain and Germany to provide the credit(debt based bank loans))which was preceeded by the stable period of the near classical gold standard enabled about 1870

            No wars and no problem if the gold standard is retained and maintained. No wars, no reparations etc.

            If the ECB went to a gold standard now it would justify the Nobel Peace Prize awarded instead of the travesty it is.

          • Realist

            Bonbon: Fisher is nothing to do with Austrians.

            You are for me absolute liar from now on.
            I warned you to not lie too much.

          • bonbon

            You are on notice – Irving Fisher brought the Austrian School to Chicago, which became Milton Friedman’s sandbox. The happy mug shots at the Mont Pelerin Society , with many a nudge and wink, gave us Pinochet.

    • bonbon

      “Unlike its neighbor to the south, Canada never for one instant had the guts to fight the international-banking-syndicate-controlled British Empire.”

      Very interesting, accurate comment there at that link. It is not clear what the rest is trying to say.

      As for bombs bursting, see this from the IT, an article contrasting both Obama and Romney with JFK -

      How would Barack Obama or Mitt Romney have responded had they stood in Jack Kennedy’s shoes?
      The president of the United States is still the most powerful person in the world and the survival of our way of life depends on the judgments he or she makes.

      But power changes people.

      Every Tuesday Barack Obama is given a set of CVs with photographs. From this list he personally authorises which of these individuals will be targeted that week by remote predator drones. The first strike he ordered happened three days after he took office and he was reportedly extremely upset when a number of children were killed inadvertently in this attack.

      Three years later, at the 2012 Washington White House correspondents’ association dinner, the president continued his now famous series of light-hearted singing and jokey press outings with a warning to the Jonas Brothers band about his daughters: “Sasha and Malia are huge fans but, boys, don’t be getting any ideas. I have two words for you: predator drones. You will never see it coming. You think I’m joking?”

      Ian Robertson is visiting professor of neurology at Columbia University, New York, and is professor of psychology at Trinity College Dublin. His book The Winner Effect: How Power Affects Your Brain, is published by Bloomsbury. @ihrobertson

      • Tony Brogan

        “It is not clear what the rest is trying to say.”

        Canada is the page for the american emperor.
        Canda project an image of peacekeeper but in fact is a war monger with troops and support ships and aircraft.

        Domestically it does not adequately protect its citizens abroad but allows abuse and torture.
        It has a reciprocal agreement with the US that each others troop can be invited to help in the case of civil problems unrest and insurection.
        It has already suspended habeas corpus twice during my residency and will no doubt do it again.

        • bonbon

          Time to show some fibre then : “Unlike its neighbor to the south, Canada never for one instant had the guts to fight the international-banking-syndicate-controlled British Empire.”

          That Empire is the problem, and it has deep roots since Andrew Jackson in the USA, and it is global.

          This is why we had Sir Henry Kissinger boasting at Rhodes College that in 3 US Administrations he always served the Crown. Obama now serves that very same Crown. And the Irish Times has hit the nail exactly with the profile above.

          • Tony Brogan

            Yes we need to close the central banking system
            Ban fractional reserve banking
            Implement sound monetary policy of commodity money

            And voila the cartel is broken and defeated.
            Nothing else will do this.
            If one is to try, one must be prepared to die.
            The cartel kill to retain power.

            The cartel(empire) preceeds the Bank of england in 1692. As I mentioned it has financed all wars in the last 300 years!

          • Realist

            Tony, we should stop talking to this absolutist called bonbon.

            He does not understand anything with LaRouche zombie ideas.

          • bonbon

            The Venetian Fondi, which arrived in England during Shakespeare’s time are the problem. The Venetian Party continued up to Edward VII and now are simply known as the grey suits, as Princess Diana called them.

            This Fondi tradition has indeed found its expression in the Inter-Alpha banking group, now being bailed out by FG (among others).

      • Tony Brogan

        Ian Robertson is visiting professor of neurology at Columbia University, New York, and is professor of psychology at Trinity College Dublin. His book The Winner Effect: How Power Affects Your Brain, is published by Bloomsbury. @ihrobertson

        This is worth opening and reading. BUT there is a lot more to be learned from reading all the blog replies under the article itself.

  44. Tony Brogan

    Switzerland is widely considered to be one of (if not) the freest and most open countries in the world. This is primarily based on the Swiss system of direct democracy and its long history of independence and neutrality, combined with its high level of diversity and international interrelations.

    Currency markets have a history of rewarding countries that are free. Why is that?

    Freer countries have the tendency to avoid over-taxation, over-regulation and support policies that promote freedom and innovation. Freer floating currency regimes allow market forces to play a role in determining value. Market forces and (truly) democratic systems, and particularly the Swiss system of direct democracy, create feedback mechanisms to help keep the excesses of government in check

    (Direct denocracy properly implemented may cause Ireland to flourish as does Switzerland)


  45. bonbon


    Thomas Pringle TD has today called for constructive and informed debate on his case on the ESM which was heard in the European Court of Justice( ECJ) this week following ill-conceived comments made by public representatives in recent days.


    “Ireland’s total commitment to the ESM is in excess of €11 billion — of which €508 million was paid last week — while there is no fixed commitment by the ESM to support Ireland.”

    This is a shattering press release.

    “The fact of the matter is that the ESM is an inter governmental body, operating not as an EU institution but as an organisation set up under international law”.

    So it can override the entire EU treaty basis.

    So now we have it – international treaties being used to override everything anyone signed up for, no matter how misguided.

    This is the British Empire, the global international authority that von Hayek and many others have always called for!

    Pringle has opened the door!

  46. molly

    David good to see you on RTE ,do you ever get the feeling you are talking to a brick wall,the past has proved you correct ,the future will do the same.

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