October 18, 2012

EU elites are destroying national economies in bid to save the euro

Posted in Irish Independent · 185 comments ·
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I AM writing this piece from Arizona where I have just heard the brilliant American economist Austan Goolsbee — the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers and the youngest member of Obama’s cabinet — argue that the European economic crisis will go on for a long, long time. He kicked off Google’s Zeitgeist conference with a tour de force on the US and the global economy.

Is he right? Will the crisis go on and on?

The political news of the past few days suggests that this titan of American economics has good reason to be fearful. Consider this litany from European politics in the past week, a litany that is likely to culminate with Spain asking for EU assistance to keep the lights on.

We kicked off with Angela Merkel greeted by riots in Athens. Meanwhile, Catalonian nationalists announced that they would bring forward elections in the hope they will lead to more sovereignty. In Venice, 200 years after the Republic of Venice ceased to exist, local politicians are again talking about a new Venetian Republic.

Meanwhile, the finance ministers of Germany, Netherlands and Finland go rogue; they claim that legacy bank debts are none of their business. All the while, the people at the top of the European pyramid react to these local and national solo-runs by calling for more federalism, something that nobody wants.

This is an elite that is out of touch with the people. This is probably not surprising because, despite everything that has happened, the people who are running the European project are dancing to bankers’ and financiers’ tunes rather than listening to the people who are pulling in the opposite direction.

The people in Brussels and deep in the policy-making establishments in every European capital claim that they are increasing moves towards more federalism in order to save the euro. This is their prerogative. However, in order to save the euro, they will risk destroying the EU.

The euro was supposed to bring the people of Europe closer together, but it’s obvious from taking the pulse of the streets — rather than the boardrooms — that the effort of saving the euro is driving the people apart, increasing nationalistic feeling and splitting the unity of the EU as countries move to protect their own interests.

Rather than seeing the euro as being the cause of the problem, the elite is portraying the chaos in the eurozone as being the consequence of other policy mistakes which had nothing to do with the currency at all.

This is nonsense. Here is what happened. The architects of the European project calculated that by imposing a new single currency led by Germany, the rest of the Europe would become more German. This counter-cultural notion was based on the idea that a German currency would impose Germanic discipline on the rest of us.

But what actually happened was something entirely different.

Within the euro the Greeks became more Greek, the Spanish more Spanish, the Irish more Irish and so on. In fact, far from disciplining the rest of Europe, German money actually allowed the rest of Europe to indulge national idiosyncrasies. Here is the rub: the huge amount of German cash, which cascaded into the periphery, allowed the periphery to become less not more German.

Now this realisation is dawning on the German people and they are beginning to reassess everything based on the fact they know they might have to finance the periphery into perpetuity.

The economy is not just weakening in Ireland, it is weakening all over Europe and the country which is the really weak link in the chain is not Spain, but France.

France is a county that is incapable of reforming itself. Due largely to the position of the trade unions, the chances of France implementing an austerity programme are virtually nil. But why might France have to implement an austerity programme, you ask?

The reason is as growth falters, financial markets will look at France’s current account deficit, its budget deficit and its weakened and exposed banking system and then they will sell French bonds. This is likely to cause French bond yields to go up and, like Spain, it will need a loan from the rest of the EU.

That loan will come with conditions and those conditions will demand that France implements large cuts in government spending to qualify for the loan. This is something that France will be incapable of delivering.

Once this becomes apparent, the position of Germany will be stark. Up to now, Germany has been talking like it wants to “do everything possible to save the euro” but in reality it has been trying to do as little as it can get away with. If France wobbles, Germany will not be able to maintain this position because it will have to act to save France. The Paris/Berlin axis is the heart of the EU and — unlike Dublin, Madrid or even Rome — it will not be sacrificed.

The implication is that Germany might decide to protect France by letting the peripherals go into a weaker or second-tier euro. This is what is ahead of us. While the focus today is on Spain, the real battle will be in France.


  1. Adam Byrne

    subscribe.

  2. AlanPower

    EU and MU taken out, for me that’s a twofor!

  3. Grey Fox

    I do not see any Public Trustee’s / Governments anywhere in Europe listening to their citizens, this will be there downfall, the talk in numerous circles in Ireland is of new political parties, attempts are being made in some circles, the problem is, we are so disillusioned with the political class in Ireland that any talk of new political parties is a real snorefest for the ordinary punter.
    So, we must make the effort to change the system and eject the gombeen men before we end up with the other side of the mirror – Fianna Fail, back in power by default!
    To this end I would encourage citizens to look outside the box, one example is Direct Democracy Ireland, it is an embryo party and worth developing as an alternative or, we will just end up with more of the same.
    http://www.awaken-longford.com

  4. Deco

    Wow. Powerful.

    Will the Germans have enough money and patience to save the French Central Bank, when the French Socialists do not have enough intelligence or courage to do it themselves ?

    The strange thing currently in all of this, is the tendency of Hollande to take a path away from the Germans, and thereby undermine any sense of solidarity.

  5. SMOKEY

    The EU and its so called leadership is full of shit. Drive down the south rim of the Grand Canyon. Meet the Indians dealing in jewelry made in Mexico.
    Go to Rods Steak House in Williams Arizona. Eat a porter house that will slay you!
    Buy some Levis for a good price.
    Forget about Ireland for a while. We will be fine. The Euro will be gone this time next Xmas,2013, and most importantly Romney will be starting a recovery that may actually take hold. Oh and if you get time buy a good Carnitas Burrito!

  6. cautious-optimist

    Have we paid too much already to the bond holders to make it worth our while but is there still a strategic advantage for us to be the first country to exit the euro? What will the reaction of the rest of the eurozone be? What will be the reaction of the multinationals based here? What about our debts denominated in euros? Basically, I’m asking what’s the exit strategy?

  7. bonbon

    Actually the argument is based on false premises, a fallacy of composition to be precise.

    The single reason for the Euro, was Mitterand and Thatcher’s geopolitics after German Re-unification. Kohl got the choice, ok, but away with the DM, a national currency. That has been repeatedly pointed out here and elsewhere.

    That is the game Ireland played-along, to get-along, to hell. That is the price for group-think.

    Taking away the DM was not voluntary – no vote was ever passed on any of the treaties from Maastricht on. This kind of geopolitics can only be destructive, based on no economics whatsoever!

    Now Germany, without the slightest doubt, is in the intended trap. This is not the first time Britain did this. The Euro is a British project with a French accent. It is quite amusing to see the wild-eyed handwaving of its proponents!

    Now Hollande – look at the mess he is in. He cannot deliver even the grape juice of the wine he promised to be elected. He knows very well the Mitterand faction is very nearby. The House of Hollande is falling.

    Germany has other partner factions in France.

    What is a real howler is trying to make economic sense of the Euro, when its existence is based on none whatsoever! Putting lipstick on the Euro, well still leaves a real stink.

    No economist should try to make economic sense of this game. It is a great distraction from political-economy our first priority!

  8. tony_murphy

    not buying it

    the eu is part of an evil plot in a globalist takeover, the euro crisis is just part one the plan. the communists figureheads (barrosso) of the eu are doing as the globalists tell them, they new mao. these people are exactly who the banksters want in “charge” – crazy people

    the imf will step in to supposedly “save” everything (same crowd who control eu), they will propose an electronic global currency, and the idiot sheeple will go along with it

    next stop the abattoir – brought there by the globalist banksters

  9. bonbon

    Considering what I just posted, look at Angela’s behavior. How to make sense of this?

    The German chancellor has called for the EU to be given the power to veto member states’ budgets, hours before leaders meet in Brussels for a summit.
    Angela Merkel said the economics commissioner should be given clear rights to intervene when national budgets violated the bloc’s rules.

    The idea is likely to be strongly opposed by members concerned about any increase in the EU Commission’s powers. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19986603


    First Angela has lunch with 7000 armed guards in Athens, now does this. Do I detect sheer panic? On top of that a rebellion against the Green Poster state, her’s, is on. Flight forward?

  10. bonbon

    Posted recently here, but I would like to point out another fallacy :

    Catalan Separatist Vote Scheduled for November 25

    Oct. 1 (LPAC)—Artur Mas, the president of Spain’s Catalonia region, today signed a decree calling for regional elections on Nov. 25, including a referendum on Catalan “sovereignty.” He told the press that recent attempts to intimidate people against proceeding with the referendum would fail. The state “cannot use weapons” to stop a sovereignty process if it is backed by a broad majority, he said, adding: “The world is watching Spain.”
    Mas made it clear that this initiative conforms precisely to Britain’s fascist {Europe of the Regions} policy: an independent Catalonia would not quit the EU, he stressed: “it is nowhere written” that that should happen. He also said that people should not believe promises of those who say they will stop the budget cuts. “That doesn’t depend on us. We are inside the EU, the Eurozone and the Spanish state, which is obligated to meet a series of targets.”

    ——–
    DMcW failed to mention Artur Mas’s well known statement – to break up Spain, but continue to bail out! That is not sovereignty! This is exactly Pan-Europe of the Austrian School Mont Pelerin Coudenhove-Kalergy think tank, in English “Europe of the Regions”.

  11. cautious-optimist

    Any relief on the promisary notes has been vetoed the Dutch, finland and Germany. Enda has been given the two fingers. We’re coming up to a bank holiday weekend. Time to pull the plug and refill the ATM’s with punt nuas (which have been printed btw). If only we had politicans who had the guts….

  12. bonbon

    Who is Goolsbee I wonder? Well decide for yourselves :
    An expose of April 13 2009, Time Magazine, identifies the circle near Obama : behavioral economists including Cass Sunstein, Austan Goolsbee, Richard Thaler, Dan Ariely to name but a few. Goolsbee is Uni of Chicago where Obama taught law for years, a fringe of the Milton Friedman School of Pinochet fame. Here is an extract from one of Goolsbee’s ramblings in an article for Slate in 2006:

    “Where the Buses Run on Time: The Lure of Incentive Pay.” This study of the Chilean economy, where “incentives” are given to bus drivers for punctuality and passenger totals, shows where this “behavior modification” is leading. Chile’s program is a remnant of its fascist past, and has many similarities to the “Opportunities NYC” welfare incentive program implemented by Mayor Michael Bloomberg the previous year, with the help of Rockefeller Foundation president Judith Rodin. Here, the idea of “state regulation” is turned on its head, to protect the market economy and reduce the human population to “incentivised” roles.


    Behavioral Economics from the University of Chicago – a bestial view of human nature, where pleasure and pain are all that’s needed to “make the buses run on time”. Where have we heard that before? Why, from none other than Adam Smith’s “Moral Sentiments”!
    Goolsbee’s mentor Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein (since gone from the White House) authored a book :

    Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth and Happiness;

    their solutions run to things like transparency in credit card (and presumably home loan) disclosures, and a public Greenhouse Gas Inventory, designed to “shame” offending industries to “clean up” their act.


    This “titan of American economics” is what’s running Obama’s economics council! A behaviorist! A fringe Friedmanite!
    Whether DMcW actually agrees with Goolsbee’s world view is not clear – benefit of the doubt is in order.

    • bonbon

      Apparently Goolsbee is now an ABC “consultant”. Here is an insane statement from 2011-06 :

      “I don’t see why anybody’s playing chicken with the debt ceiling. If we get to the point where we damage the full faith and credit of the United States, that would be the first default in history caused purely by insanity.”

      Goolsbee seems to think hyperinflation, caused by the bailouts, can avoid default! This is “reasoning” from behaviorism, pleasure and pain. Sane people know the bailouts must be stopped, reversed and reconstruction started, restoring full faith.

      • Tony Brogan

        Seems you have become an austrian.
        Now you acknowledge that a credit(debt) based printing binge inevitably leads to hyperinflation and a bigger bust. Of course as you know the current problems are caused by the previous profligate printing that created the boom now busted.
        Congratulations, did you fall off a horse on the road to Damascus?

        • bonbon

          Goolsbee is the Austrian, a fringe maybe, that wants the busses run on time, and still utters sheer madness. He is a behavioral economist, as are Obama’s advisors. This is pure Adam Smith, given a modern wash-over. One expects sooner or later such outbursts from pleasure-pain advocates.

          Have a look at the Triple Curve, a piece of advice I give to all “Austrian School”‘ers, to see the error von Hayek made which is also directly from Adam Smith.

          Monetarist “reasoning, whether Keynes, Hayek, or Bernanke-Draghian is the problem. Sandy Weill is the one who had the Road to Damascus re-think, calling for Glass-Steagall like the Financial Times on July 4, and for that monetarists should be thankful.

  13. Julia

    Well done David. Ray Crotty is vindicated.

  14. bonbon

    From the BBC link i posted just above :
    Despite the smiles the French and German leaders disagree on EU integration moves.

    French President Francois Hollande said the summit must keep focused on plans for a banking union.
    He wants action to revive growth, while Germany stresses budget discipline.
    “The topic of this summit is not the fiscal union but the banking union, so the only decision that will be taken is to set up a banking union by the end of the year and especially the banking supervision. The other topic is not on the agenda,” Mr Hollande said.
    —-
    Hollande has bowed to French banking that reject even the Finnish banking regulation-lite. Growth within that banking stranglehold is impossible.

  15. Where is FRANCE

    I remember in primary school Murphy asked the visiting priest if God is everywhere and is HE in Murphys back garden to which the priest replied ‘ of course HE is ‘ to which Murphy responded , ‘ we have no back garden’.

    In Ireland , France is everywhere and in Murphys back garden too because he moved to a new address . Just think about it and why :

    France Doms in Ireland

    Diageo – Guinness is the Irish for ‘ Allez France ‘.

    JC Deceaux – check your local advertising board and local toilets ;

    Danone – your favorite yogurts ;

    Veolia – your new water supplier and electricity supplier and garbage disposal ;

    Luas – check the manufacturers and the operators of the line ;

    Servis Air – Dublin and national air cargo management ;

    Car Dealerships – Renault – Peugeot – Citron etc

    and the list goes on .

    Where is Ireland in Ireland ? I find that very hard to answer now .

    Where is Germany in Ireland ? I will leave that answer to Deco and Dorothy .

    I remember the year France joined the Euro with Germany because then had it not done so France would have been a non entity and immediately afterwards industry in France expanded .During the 80s in France there was a serious crisis and certain current powerful French Industrialist came to power because they worked in USA and UK using new management strategies unknown then in France . These people are the real power brokers in France today and some are leaving .

    Charlemagne loved his twins France and Germany and recognised their uniqueness and included them in his Empire .These are inseperable and will always be .They are the Yin and Yang of Europe .

    It is only a matter of time when every Irish city will need to know where to get their sausages and bacon because Germany have a condescending attitude to consider all other peripherals to be Sweins .Just think about it , the Irish are ‘Pigs in a Pork’ and Noonan owns the Abatoir.

  16. Philip

    Excellent 10/10 article. There is little by way of histrionics. The scene is well set. We are not a European community…we are a Europe of communities.

    Is it not interesting how many of us here say, in the end, look after your local community. As the Red C poll indicated this morning – FG is down, FF up, SF is down and so on…but the damning thing is “Do Knows” is way up. Our political elite are now being increasing viewed as useless and that the notion of Nation being held together by these people is becoming more untenable. No wonder the instinct is to participate less and less.

    So it is with the EU. Communities are subdividing and people are retreating because there is no means of representation at the center of power. Increasingly we “the people” are now just a backdrop and a means to an end for getting these clowns elected.

    People are increasingly looking at this as a problem of leadership. The current leadership see this as a scientific problem of social engineering thro the machinations of monetary driven economic pseudo science (not real economics where very hard calculable and non-calculable issues have to be addressed). It is rather remarkable that Merkel can come out and ask blatantly for control of national policy with no seeming inkling of the optics of those remarks. It shows how much to the dark side our leadership have actually wandered

    Hate to say it…but DMW has hit it smack on the head. EU is turning into an inward looking monster and we need to get out fast and our career politicians are selling us out.

    • Philip

      Be wary of Messianic nutjobs with “solutions”. The only solution will be people waking up. I know that sounds unrealistic, but a leader in these times could turn out to be too powerful. We are close to a stage where anarchy may need to be tried out. Centralism is not the same as Unity – it is someone else telling you what it is.

      • bonbon

        Expand on that “anarchy” bit, would you. Another poster threw the Geneva Convention out the window. We have the anarchy of the markets and the unelected tutor-cracy, what more could you ask for?

        We have Artur Mas trying to break Spain up to pay the EU. A Europe of the communities, of the regions, Pan-Europe, all the same old British-Hapsburg feudal reaction to the nation-state.

        • Philip

          Using the Wiki definition: “anarchy” typically is used to refer to a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority. It is not about disorder. It is about dispensing with the need for a leader (one person or elite group).

          As you have pointed out so often, using above definition, we have no anarchy of the markets whatsoever, it is extremely well managed by the Brits and they perpetrate Armageddon.

          I’ll give just one example of how one could organize without leaders being at the centre…There’s a classic organizational model called RACI which is used a lot in projects. If it is not in place, the chances are you’ll have a mess on your hands. For those who never saw it…here is the layout.
          R – Responsible correct execution of process and activities
          A – Accountable ownership of quality and end result – usually
          ne person must be accountable for each activity
          C – Consulted involvement through input of knowledge and information
          I – Informed receiving information

          In our so called democracy, A and C barely work. At the EU level A,C and I are simply not there. But we are all responsible to keep the law and pay our taxes. Yet we have leaders??? No wonder people are reeling

          There are many effective models of making things work without elites or “big personalities”. That how good projects run. My fear is that people are made to feel they need a leader or “Idol” as it were. This is exactly the very insult that has damned humanity down the ages – even before the British Empire came along :)

          • bonbon

            All empires play exactly that game, the British the last in a long tradition. The “Invisible Hand” of Adam Smith is nothing else but exactly what you describe. The trick is always the same, in different formulations.

            How does an empire seize control, how did only 25,000 British rule 500 million Indians? Well Europe has long experience, and discovered how to deal with it.

            The trick is always to deny the existence of mind, creativity. (To deny fire as Prometheus refused). Adam Smith put it precisely in hs Moral Sentiments :
            How Adam Smith fooled you suckers!: MOST OF THE TIME
            http://larouchepac.com/node/15815

            Denying creativity, incentivizing via pleasure/pain for behavioral modification, is exactly the basis for these “models”. The Frankfurt School of Hannah Arendt for example, attacked the “big personality”. She got the idea from Nietzsche (doctoral work). Not surprising as Nietzsche, beloved of the fascists, is Dionysian (as Arendt showed), pure Roman irrationality. From this comes “anarchy”, and Nietzsche.

            The Wiki is shallow I’m afraid.

      • StephenKenny

        It is the way of these cycles.

        I was reading a piece by a student recently, asking the age old question of how it could have been that a people as civilised as the Germans could have rallied behind Hitler, and concluding that it was all a long time ago and we, in these modern times, couldn’t possibly go that way.

        When all around seems to be falling apart, someone stands up and makes a couple of very simple promises to make things better, and if that “something” is right, then it will take off. I can see it happening in the next 12 months.

        People are being robbed by the bankers, rich people are moving their money away, the politicians are lying about tomorrows date let alone anything else, it is increasingly clear that the media are not reporting the whole news – just the acceptable bit, foreign businessmen are buying up national assets are stupidly low prices …… and on and on.
        When basics start to become hard for the majority – food, energy, healthcare – there might be a Mussolini, a Franco, a Lenin, who’ll just say that they will sort it all out; sure, they may have to suspend some laws for a while, but they will deal with all the parasites and profiteers who are were the cause and are making it so much worse than it need be. They’ll promise jobs for all by putting to use all the resources wasted by ‘that group’ – who ever they are.

        I wonder how many Greeks and Spaniards are tempted now.

        • bonbon

          Well see Artur Mas’s statement about breaking up Spain above, implicitly quoted by DMcW.

          The poor kid who unfortunately had not the faintest clue about the real world, should have been informed : Mussolini in British pay for a decade before his fascism, Franco brought back from exile by the Royal Air Force, Lenin guided though wartime Europe in a sealed train by Parvus Helphand a notorious British spook. And Hitler’s election payed for by Bank of England chief Norman Montague with Prescott Bush of Brown Brothers Harriman.
          Now Obama’s election payed for by George Soros, the notorious agent.

          Imagine how the British are tempted now!

          • Philip

            Ok ok…so you tell me that Larouche et al are not subject to the same human condition of meglomanical control when they have all that power in their hands…Come on!!!!!!

          • bonbon

            Pointing out the factual documented evidence, I know, disturbs west Brit Tigers. It brings on hysterical fits, even frothing rage. The question is why? Hmm.

            Because its very close to and strives for truth? That very striving, I think makes flagellants suddenly see what they have been doing to themselves for “them”.

            That’s what waking up means!

          • Tony Brogan

            The ultimate authoritarian is bon bon.

        • Adam Byrne

          The muppets in this country will vote Fianna Fail back in, watch and see.

    • Tony Brogan

      Never liked the EU Philip except for the ability to travel around without borders. As a trade entity it make some sense but as a monetaryunion it is death.

      In addition once out of the monetary union thenthe country must exit the banking union which is the fatal connection for loss of sovereighty.
      The central bank must also be closed down and the nation can thrive with its own national currency administered through Treasury.
      Then silver coin should be issued in the manner previously described in past blogs and the people be given a choice as to what they wish to use as money.
      The precidence of past history says they will prefer silvercoin to fiat bank note.

      Regards
      T

  17. bonbon

    “EU ELITES ARE DESTROYING NATIONAL ECONOMIES IN BID TO SAVE THE EURO”

    Not quite. The “elites” are destroying national economies to force “free-trade”. The Euro is the tool. The objective is unbridled libertinism, something DSK, Dominique Strauss-Kahn of the IMF expressed.

    As Goolsbee wrote in ““Where the Buses Run on Time: The Lure of Incentive Pay.” a study of the Chilean economy, where “incentives” are given to bus drivers for punctuality and passenger totals, shows where this “behavior modification” is leading. Instead of any economics at all, pleasure and pain, the free-market as Adam Smith expounded. Everything the nation-state is about (in spite of treacherous politicians) is to be eradicated. “Communities”, in other words ghettos, are encouraged, governance not elected government of and by, for the people, these are easy to simply “incentivize”.

    Do we want to be “incentivized”? Behaviorism is a crime against humanity!

    • Tony Brogan

      Not quite. The “elites” are destroying national economies to force “free-trade”.

      Totally wrong. Free trade is the cheese in the trap.
      The euro is the spring which when released entraps.

      The goal is total control by the elete to place all under authoritarian rule and economic serfdom.

  18. Tony Brogan

    While it breaks up all around do something to protect yourself.

    http://blogs.forbes.com/greatspeculations/

  19. bonbon

    DMcW, very good to mention Austan Gaolsbee, you hit the real point – behavioral economics.

    Could it be that the apparent refusal of the people to “wake up”, is an instinctual resistance, deep suspicion of behavioral modification? I would like to think so. Yet people do play along with these incentivizing programs, based on pleasure and pain. This is calculated by party hacks, articulated in detail by Adam Smith, Bentham et al…

    The bestial outlook is pervasive, and the basis for control. Yet economic collapse can be the only result. In other words refusal, or prevention, to be human guarantees primate relative-potential-population densities, in plain words – genocide on a massive scale, a cull. There is no avoiding this conclusion.

  20. michaelcoughlan

    The great thing about your more recent articles is that they are becoming increasingly political a coming of age so to speak . Well done. You might be able to confirm on your travels in the US by the way if it is true that the individual states’ police forces are swilling themselves with armoured cars etc or did you think that this was happening by accident in light of the weaning of the union over there?
    One of these days Peter Sutherland will declare you one of the biggest idiots ever and then you will know you have it made and are a really serious heavyweight because Chutchill said “our worth as men I’d not measured by the company we keep but by the calibre of our enemies”.
    By the way David don’t go anywhere near the fed. An ailkaieda operative was picked up trying to place a van load of explosives outside the place. If precedence is anything to go by it will be only a matter of time before they succeed in demolishing that building also. Wouldn’t like to see you getting caught up in that now would we?

    Enjoy the trip.

    Michael.

  21. Beaver

    The euros not the problem, its just a unit of financial measurement. Countries living beyond their means is the problem.The Irish and Spanish borrowed and paid too much for houses, the Greeks spend too much on their army, the Italians and Portuguese pay themselves excessive pensions from too early an age. The euro has just forced them to face these facts. The euro will teach them to reform themselves and live on less and stop borrowing from their grandchildren. It will be in their own best interests long term because the Chinese haven´t gone away you know…

    • bonbon

      How can the Euro teach anyone anything, except that is is the biggest disaster ever brought by elites in peacetime? DMcW is right on this.

      The bank bailout, measured in whatever unit you want is the problem, in case one refuses to see, or feeds on it.

      Methinks the same delirium that poor Hollande is suffering from, “it will all be solved by Christmas”, is spreading.

      • Beaver

        Its teaching many people (including the Euroelite – their own budget was rejected by the member states as excessive) and governments financial discipline.If you think things are bad now wait until the euro collapses and europe descends into anarchy.

        The bank bailout was not caused by the euro. It was caused by the fact that Brian Lenihan didnt understand how capitalism worked and believed all the rubbish advice he was given.

        I think europes lack of financial discipline will take a decade to solve with or without the collapse of the euro. If it goes, new less stable units of financial measurement will be created but people will still expect to live in the style to which they intend becoming accustomed.

        D Mc W is right on the need for debt writedowns and bankruptcies but wrong on exiting the euro. When I writedown debt or bankrupt someone it doesnt matter what currency I do it in.

        • Pat Flannery

          Beaver: you are one of the few here including McW who understands or wants to understand the problem. Keep posting.

          (Although you might want to reconsider your handle)

          • bonbon

            Sounds like a disciplining teacher of old. The Tutor-cracy (Tudor-cracy?) wants to discipline the Irish. Where have we heard that before I wonder?

        • breltub

          I would like to make some points here.

          The Euro is not an accurate instrument of financial measurement. Due to its excessive printing, and the ever expanding debt under lying it, each Euro you consider a financial measurement keeps getting smaller/shorter depending on how you visualise it. That erodes the time value on it, and in simple terms that is inflation! It is not hard to see if you look around or at your pay slip!
          A financial measurement that keeps changing, and only in one direction, is not a good tool for financial discipline. It is an accelerator of the problem of financial indiscipline.

          Secondly, the currency you get a bankruptcy/write down in does make a difference. Look up the interest rate carry trade. A write down would essentially be that in reverse!

          I agree totally on idiot politician promising people all sorts to allow people live beyond their means at the expense of others and every single politician I have ever seen doesn’t understand a thing except to double down on a failed idea because it will protect his/her/party’s/crony’s interests!

          The euro is a problem, get that straight! But it is one of many

        • Philip

          I think you’re on the ball. The leaders are learning that there is a price to pay for lack of accountability and proper consultation and making an Idol out interest groups.

          Euro has been an excellent lesson for all. I hope we can pull thro’ If it changes the status quo for the better and causes people to really ask awkward questions, it was a well spent effort.

        • bonbon

          To say we need the Euro ” as a lesson” smacks of S&M, self flagellation and public confessions. Hey that’s something from the middle ages!

          No one needs ” to be taught a lesson ” by the tutor-cracy (as Galbraith niceley puts it ). That is Adam Smith’s Moral Sentiments of Pleasure and Pain.

          To be herded like animals by the Banking Union (about to be formed) is one thing, but to hear fellow Irish “teaching a lesson” by “higher powers – Euro, is sickening.

          Throw off this flagellant Euro yoke as we threw off the yoke before. And get to the serious work of reconstruction.

          • Philip

            Yer a great one for the debauched similes to colour and distort the intent of remarks. The sincere hope is that lessons learned are hopefully not to be retaught – unlike addictive nature of S&M – a bit like the repetitive latin you use…

            Flagellum Flagella
            Flagellum Flagella
            Flagellum Flagella
            Flagelli Flagellorum
            Flagello Flagellis
            Flagello Flagellis

            Maybe take a walk on the wild side ;)

          • Philip

            U coming to Kilkenomics? Love to see who u are. Love the mystic william blakeian references and if u like Galbraith, u can’t be all bad :).

          • bonbon

            Away with Adam Smith’s sentimental morality, it makes posters here utter daft rambles. It reduces humanity to the beast, where no economics is possible, only green ecology. Time to look much harder at the policies one propounds.

    • paddythepig

      I agree 100%.

    • Harper66

      Ireland faces two problems.

      1- “living beyond our means”. The result of this is a massive deficit which needs to be reigned in.

      2 – shouldering 64 billion of private banking debt in order to keep the euro banking system alive. The result taking on this debt meant Ireland was frozen out of bond markets. This impeded us from addressing our sovereign deficit.

      Both are problems that need to be addressed and neither excuses or validates the other. The euro is as big a problem as our budget over spend.

      How much will we owe in 2025 thanks to taking on the private debt?

      • Harper66

        correction – 69.6 billion to date has been pumped into the banks.

      • bonbon

        Instead of a growth policy, banking separation, FG have borrowed €67 billion from the Troika and given €64 billion of this to the banks. And imposed austerity, the only vision Enda has right now. It is unsustainable, and that is a trump card. No one in the EU will take Enda seriously, no deal is possible, as long as there is no change in policy.

    • Joe R

      No the euro is the problem. Pat Flannery above is wrong also.

      Two points follow -

      1) Spain has had property booms and busts before, the last as recently as the 90s and comparable in size. It had a bad bank then too, like the one it is instigating now. The big difference was it had the pesta to devalue as well, and get out of the mess. ( Oh plus unbridled emigration from Romania, Latin America and Africa.)

      Same goes for Italy Portugal and Greece, they played the same games before as they were up to recently but had a currency to help get them out of the holes that they dug and re-dug for themselves.

      Remember the exchange rates with these countries prior to the adoption of the euro – 2500 lira, 200 pestas, 420 drachmas and 250 escudos just for ONE PUNT.

      This was because the currencies were repeatedly devalued over many years and allowed to find their level on international markets over time.

      These countries do not have this now and are being crucified as the Irish are.

      2) These countries and Ireland too, achieved super-low interest rates on debt with Euro membership and hence were able to borrow more money because it was percieved that as Euro-zone countries the old Bundesbank, or Germans, were now really in charge with the Euro and would back up any one of the these countries if there was a big problem.

      I.e. these countries credit increased BECAUSE of the euro. Plus this was an easier sell within Germany, France etc to send credit abroad to previously somewhat unreliable countries.

      • paddythepig

        How come Iceland and Latvia increased their credit massively, when neither of them were in the euro?

        • Harper66

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Iceland_to_the_European_Union#Pre-2008_opinion

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_euro_coins

          Both countries have been putting together bids to join the Euro pre 2008.

          Both countries borrowed their money from Europe.

          The euro created a plentiful supply of cheap credit.

          • Joe R

            Iceland are trying to join the EU.

            The Euro-zone is a different thing. Sweden the UK and Denmark are not in the euro-zone.

          • Harper66

            Hi Joe,
            I understand the difference. I was speaking about the repective countries positions pre – 2008.

            If I recall correctly at some stage Iceland also looked into to adopting the euro without joining the EU. This was rejected.

            Regardless of that, both countries were very keen to create close ties with EU states.

          • Joe R

            Hey Harper – I understand the Icelanders have gone off the idea a bit after watching the unfolding horror show of the last few years.

        • Joe R

          What was the point of this comment?

          I am supposed to be an economic expert on Iceland?
          For Icelands rise and decline have read of this it is too long to quote -
          http://sedlabanki.is/lisalib/getfile.aspx?itemid=7592
          It had a lot to do with Britians off shore financial machine. (Iceland small Britain Big geddit Paddy?)

          And what am I supposed to know about Latvian economic history from 1990-2010?

          Lativa was part of the USSR it didn’t exist as an independent country up to 1990 Paddy. After this Lativa was inside the euro-area was an emerging market so probably got more favourable terms than if it were outside the Euro area. Is that good enough for you?

          • Joe R

            Clarification – by the ‘Euro area’ here I meant the EU economic trading block.

          • paddythepig

            It’s a simple question. You claim that countries increased their credit because of the euro. The implication is that if we still had the punt, the explosion of credit in ireland would not have occurred. I point out two countries not in the euro who experienced an explosion in credit, neither of them in the euro. How can that be if you are so sure the euro is the root cause of the problem? How come there are countries within the euro who didn’t have an explosion in credit, and yet there are countries outside the euro zone who did?

            British savers financed a substantial amount of the Icelandic bubble, so is sterling the root cause of the Icelandic bubble?

            Ireland would have still had an explosion of credit, euro or no euro, just like Iceland and Latvia.

            The currency is not the issue, the real issue is excessive financial liberalism.

          • Joe R

            I never claimed any such implication. I don~t have a glass ball. But certainly many countries got more credit because of their assocation with the euro.

            As far as I can see you missed the 2 part nature of comment completely.Then you made a blank unsupported assertation. Neo-liberalism was to blame!

            Appaerently socialists don’t need credit. Is that right Paddy?

            And what ever question and or point you were trying to make by throwing that red herring comment like what about Iceland and Lativa is completely unclear.

            Lativa was part of a COMMUNIST federation i.e. had a COMMAND economy up to 1990. They did not have an exposion of credit – they had an explosion of capitalism. Plus it is small, poor and given a short capitalistic economic history it is of no value in a comparison with larger deveoped economies mentioned earlier like Italy and Spain.

            Iceland is VERY SMALL with less than 400 thousand people. Britain is VERY LARGE with 60 million or so. Icelands problem had to do with the VERY LARGE British offshore financial machine (Isle of man, Jersey, etc) where relatively a small percentage of capital moving from the LARGE economy to the SMALL one which was able to distort the smaller economy’s banking scene and create that particular ponzi scheme. With internal Icelandic help of course.

            However, in detangling the mess, the Icelanders have had their own currency and were able to use that as a tool to deal with their problems.

            Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece used to able to do the same. They always lived beyond their means. National currencies were the reset button. They don’t have that now. That is the biggest difference in this particular phase. That is one of the reasons Iceland is getting on better than any of them.

          • paddythepig

            So you disregard examples which contradict your thesis. You remind me of Jim Carrey in the following clip – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx32b5igLwA.

            Latvia did have a credit bubble, which it is solving, wisely, without devaluation. It hadn’t been under communist rule since 1990. http://www.economist.com/node/21556580

            Your big v small argument is nonsense. If it were true, and if your ‘it’s the euro’s fault’ argument were true, Luxembourg would be a basket case. Yet it is not.

          • Joe R

            Sorry this is your idea of a solution?From the Guardian, and linked -

            “The reality in Latvia is that after experiencing the world’s greatest economic contraction from the 2008 crisis, it has now observed a modest bounce of the dead cat after its freefall finally ended with it hitting the pavement. The modest uptick in growth is primarily a consequence of Swedish demand for Latvian timber. Long-term economic prospects in the country, however, remain grim.

            Moreover, the airbrushing of Latvia’s recent history by Samuelson and other pundits claiming the population has supported austerity is contradicted by the massive protests early on in its crisis. When these protests failed to bring about change, the public’s response was to vote with their feet and exit the country. Indeed, when combined with its low-birth rate, this emigration from Latvia is creating a kind of demographic euthanasia that risks the very disappearance of this nation.”

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/16/latvia-anders-aslund-austerity

          • Joe R

            Paddy, I wrote no 10,000 word thesis. I posted a short cogent comment on a blog at best.

            You are the one carrying on with the contrarian behaviour here.

            You made no clear argument, and I can’t find any relevance to my comments. In the case of Latvia, the truth of any comment you have made.

      • Pat Flannery

        You make the case FOR the Euro perfectly.

        • Joe R

          I made no case for it, Pat.

          But maybe my comment illustrates what politicans, civil servants, bankers and people who understood these things across some parts of Europe were thinking when the Euro was mooted – easy money!

          I read a Kurt Vonnegut book a while back, a novel called Jailbird, it is a dry cynical work. The main character in it makes a point that every successful government is underpinned by a giant ponzi scheme.

          Sweden had the choice of joining the Euro immediately after a property bubble in the 1990s. It untangled itself economically utilising the Krona, and it took the mature, self-confident decision to keep the Krona and not to join the Euro.

          Some of the very same politicans who supported and helped take Ireland into the euro are in senior positions now in the government. There is not a chance that any error will be admitted.

  22. bonbon

    Hollande in Delirium: The Worst of the Crisis Has Passed…

    PARIS, Oct. 18, 2012 (Nouvelle Solidarité)–In an interview with six European newspapers, French President François Hollande illustrated once again his utter incompetence on economic and other matters. “Concerning the end of the crisis of the Euro one, we are close, very close,” he began. “The worst,” he added later, “i.e., the fear of an explosion of the Eurozone, yes, is over. But the best is not yet there.”
    Hollande also announced what his stance will be at the European Council of Ministers meeting today and tomorrow in Brussels, in the context of increasing tensions between France and Germany on the banking union, Eurobonds, and further European integration.
    On this latter issue, Hollande seems to be backpedaling a bit, fearing, as he put it in the interview, that the left-wing majority could fracture on this question, as it did in 2005 when the French population voted down the so-called European Constitution in a national referendum; a whole faction in the Socialist Party voted against it. Last week, 29 Socialist deputies, plus the majority of Greens and the Front de Gauche, voted in the National Assembly against ratifying the Fiscal Treaty and the ESM.
    While Germany is expected to push for further supranational integration in Europe, Hollande, responding to whether he favored Federal Europe or a Europe of the Nations, said, “My approach is a Europe that moves ahead at different speeds, within different spheres. Call them ‘vanguards,’ or ‘pioneer states,’ the ‘hard core’ … the idea is what’s important.” Asked about a new constitutional treaty to go in that direction, Hollande responded, “I think I remember that in 2005, we had tried this formula and the results were not what was expected! Because, before going into institutional mechanics, the Europeans have to know what it is that they want to do together.” In short, the political union can come only after the social, budgetary, and banking unions.
    On two other issues, however, the French are pushing the madness further: the banking union and Eurobonds. On the one hand, Germany is trying to postpone the creation of the banking union, and resisting putting the Sparkasse (savings & loan bank) and the Länder banks (run or owned by the German states, e.g., WestLB) under supervision of this thing run by the ECB; on the other, Hollande is demanding action in that direction before the end of the year. “My position is simple: all the European Council of June 28, not more than the European Council of June 28th, but applied as fast as possible. The objective is to solve everything before the end of this year,” i.e., the creation of this banking supervision union, run by ECB President Draghi, being able to recapitalize the banks.
    Elsewhere in the interview, Hollande said that the “budgetary union must be completed with a partial mutualization of debts, via the Eurobonds,” to which Germany is thoroughly hostile.
    Lastly, to a question on whether there could be a European agreement to push back the 3% deficit limit in 2013, because there are too many dissenting voices, Hollande pointed out that not all countries are in the same situation, but for France he had to do it, because between 2007 and 2012, public debt rose from 62% to 90% of the GDP.

  23. breltub

    I think this article is a bit like looking at a brick, you need to step back and see the wall.

    The EU is destroying national economies because it is in the interest of those in power to expand their powers to assume control over a greater amount of Europe.

    The plan is going swimmingly, with only the Germans, Finns and Dutch standing in the way of all out United states of Europe.

    They appear to be the only ones looking out for themselves, the rest of the national leaders though while looking out for themselves, it doesn’t include looking out for their people.

    What Ben Bernanke is in the US, they want a Bernault du Bernank, or a Bruno von Bernank seated in Brussels with command and control!

    Wake up!

  24. mediator

    Greetings David, Fellow contributors

    An interesting piece but to my mind this piece and the contributions illustrate two distinct views on the Euro crisis.

    On the one hand we have your analysis which is primarily economic (but has recently veering towards the political).
    This view could broadly be termed micro, because it discusses the nuts and bolts of the ongoing Euro/Financial crisis.

    The other views seem to be geopolitical. This might formerly have been termed conspiracy based (and to many still are)

    I enjoy your economic views and respect your analytical abilities, particularly as you demonstrated them w.r.t the Irish economy and the housing market in particular.

    In other words – you have form.

    Now I’d like to address the second view – conspiracy based.

    Back in the 1980′s I took an interest in conspiracy theories (a young fox mulder before fox came along).
    There were many variations on this theme (I never came across bonbons version until I saw his contributions on this site), but in general they pointed towards some form of planning at a globalised level by economic elites who by influencing politicians and simple policy formulations were able to steer the world towards a global governance and economic system.

    There is much evidence of this hiding in plain sight, “bilderberg etc…” so I don’t think that it is that contentious to state that it is very controverial to say that there are elites and that they have an agenda.

    A lot of what i read back in the 1980′s and 1990′s was written by people who were against any form of one world system, and in particular they linked the formation of the ECSC, and its development into the EEC and now EU as being part of this global agenda.

    The interesting thing from my perspective is that at the time these conspiracy theorists made many predictions on what was going to happen within the next 20 years or so. I remember telling myself that if there was any truth in what they were writing, I would be able to see it, when and if their predictions came to pass.

    Well suffice it to say that many of their predictions were dead on. They were good forecasters and like you David I would now say that they have form.

    If you agree with this view (and many of your contributors seem to at least have some sympathy with it) then the key issue would probably be whether these globalists have the well being of humanity at heart.

    To my mind some of them may think that they have – however whenever human beings decide to enact great plans they usually do so over the misery and suffering of countless human beings.

    I don’t think that this will be any different.

    More anon

    god bless

    • breltub

      Nicely put!

    • Grey Fox

      +1
      “To my mind some of them may think that they have — however whenever human beings decide to enact great plans they usually do so over the misery and suffering of countless human beings.”

      It is a form of disease, a mixture of tunnel vision, god complex and self adoration or in short, believing their own bulshit. It is only since the major advances in globalisation and associated technological advances that the self serving chest pounders have managed to affect many millions of ordinary people on such a large scale, up to then all this BS would have been localised and the affects restricted. There is no doubt that there is a massive conspiracy to steal wealth and individual production from the masses, the more pressing issue is the betrayal of citizens by their public trustee’s and the lack of backbone from these same trustee’s to stand up and be counted, my own personal view is that, while we may have grown accustomed to the view that all politicians lie and we have traditional accepted this to a large extent, this mindset is over!
      I will no longer accept any degree of lying, nor should any other citizen of any jurisdiction!
      It may well be to late to deal with our gargantuan economic situation by traditional means, I hope not because the alternative is downright scary!
      So, we have to,(every man,woman & child) step up and say enough is enough at every opportunity, in the same manner as the ECB has created all this debt, so they must recind the same debt, the Euro project is dead, we are at terminal debt, there is no way back!
      PS: bit of a rant, sorry

      • mediator

        Hello Grey Fox,

        Unfortunately they do not have to do anything – least of all rescind debt or declare the Euro dead. The Elite view is that the Euro is like a cocoon which allows a caterpillar to become a butterfly and is then discarded.

        The Euro will only die when the EU(SSR) has come to fruition and can take its place in whatever new global system emerges.

        • Grey Fox

          Well said , I agree, my concerns are and always have been humanitarian, and the resulting carnage from the game of monopoly which is beings played is too high stakes! this charade needs to be rejected at all levels, but this will not happens!
          My realisation of this keeps leading me to the same result and I do not like what I am ending up with, not for me because I am 2/3 of the way to the finish line but for my kids and their kids, already todays school kids do not know very much else other than the situation as it is, so how are they to know that they are missing something they never knew existed.
          Technology is moving so fast and the crooks & thieves have hijacked all the benefits and are using every development against the common man. All in the name of GREED! They must be stopped at all costs.

        • bonbon

          Some butterfly, the United States of Sir Oswald Mosley’s Europe? Wow.

          The USE a butterfly. The have notorious short lives.

          Still that’s the funniest comment I have read in years!

    • Philip

      The dynamic of what you describe is undeniable. But I keep wondering if this is anything new? Small towns and villages have their one Major. Technology has made village earth – so that same rule applies.

      My point is that “capability” combined with the natural drive to dominate is what is happening and what you are describing.

      As for stamping over people’s rights, pilfering their means of production and savings – much of that is about classic commercial dominance. I mean, they say competition is good. But every company knows, that the objective is to get rid of competition. The hunt for maximising margin and dominance of markets means people get crushed. Years ago, the world was generally big enough to allow spillover. There were those corridors and avenues of indifference where there was safety. Not so in today’s well mapped earth.

      It is not a conspiracy. It is basically an inevitable consequence of how easy t has become to globally control. That is why we need to turn away from Idols.

      • Grey Fox

        I take you point Philip, well said.

      • Grey Fox

        I am trying to take a human stand on the matters at hand, I agree it is nothing new, and it is classic commercial dominance, but, that does not make it right especially when a few are holding all the levers, thank god we moved on from the point where cavemen simply walked out a bashed their neighbour over the head for his food, but the reason that stopped was maybe because the neighbour figured out that if he went and got a few pals he could come back and sort out the bully!
        That in essence is the scenario I am scared of seeing occuring. Although the tougher things become the more I grow to think it might be required, warts and all.

        • bonbon

          To be human, then is about bully’s and victims? Food and fear? Dominance? Exactly what Adam Smith, in “Moral Sentiments” declared human nature is, now adored as the free-market, globalization. Sharing this sentimental morality, well, is going-along, to get-along to hell. But the friends would never criticize one for that, now would they.

          Look at Lascaux, Casquer and tell me you have not fallen a long way down. What is it that trod on one so badly that they propound their downtrodden state as “human nature”?

          • Philip

            I believe humanity has a long long way to go. I believe animals have reached it from day 1, but our own fear stops us. Of course we are certainly down trodden. Look around you…FF are rising in the polls.

            That does not mean we should not show respect for one another. Adam Smith recognized a reality and his writings are a tactic as are most of the economic philosophies. They are not the end game – perhaps a little step along the way and no more.

            There is no optimum or ultimate framework even at a logical level (which has been proven mathematically in 1931 by Godel). It is looking likely that the same applies to Physics and everything else – including Economics. So stop whinging and muck in.

    • bonbon

      Don’t get the point at all. You mean destroying fascism in WWII, should not have been done as Chamberlain begged? Is it “Peace in our Time” you want? Well Hollande has fallen into that delirium – sure it’l all be fine by Christmas.

      As for the plans of the “elite”, a cull, there is no secret – it’s all in plain daylight. They mean it, just in case you think it’s a joke – they just could’nt be that nasty, all my friends say so!

      Good economics shows this also as the Triple Curve :
      The collapsing physical-economy is the cull :
      http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/2002/2903trip_curve.html

      Now it can get political!

  25. Lord Jimbo

    Hardly comes as a surprise that elites are out of touch, or doing whatever they can to protect their financial interests, while the political elite jump to the tune of financiers and bankers. The EU is designed for elites.

    Also no surprise that the crisis in the eurozone is going to rumble on, 4 years of inconclusive meetings prove that, now there is a EU banking Tsar, big deal, will the position have any teeth, of course not.

    EU as an entity is fracturing in places, the financial crisis is fuelling separatists move, you may also see something similar in the US where a handful of states are completely bankrupt, better off states may decide to cut loose.

    • bonbon

      That has always been a dear dream of the British Empire, it failed in 1865. I am sure London would provide an embassy free for the next confederate states os america, CSA, especially if the adopt Britain’s John LOcke constitution – again. Britain could simply refurbish the CSA embassy (which still stands). Artur Mas of Catalonia wants to break Spain, another ancient dream of London. Interesting how exactly the same strategy suddenly shows its mug again?

      Success is just outside Britains grasp, yet again….

      • Lord Jimbo

        The English will have their own issues if Scotland votes for independence in 2014, polls indicate a no at the moment, but the SNP are effective political operators and may just pull it off, which would be an astonishing development, one of the most in fact in 300 years. It would change the whole dynamic between these islands and would naturally see greater ties between Ireland and Scotland. Ironically while regions in various EU countries seek independence, 50 years from now (if not before), Ireland may yet see some form of unity, it is almost there as it is, if only we didn’t have such an inept political and banking elite.

        • Lord Jimbo

          This all comes against the backdrop of easily the best period in relations between Ireland and England, another irony.

        • bonbon

          We have one all-Ireland party campaigning on both sides of the border against the cuts imposed by Dublin and London. The main reason I think Scotland would break away is the bank bank bailouts imposed on the population, in other words London.

          But Pan-Europe of the Regions, a Balkanization of the EU has been a long-standing objective – to destroy the nation-states. DMcW points at this in the lead.

          • Tony Brogan

            But Pan-Europe of the Regions, a Balkanization of the EU has been a long-standing objective — to destroy the nation-states. DMcW points at this in the lead.

            DMW said nothing of the sort. He suggested no plan only observed what is.

          • bonbon

            “EU ELITES ARE DESTROYING NATIONAL ECONOMIES IN BID TO SAVE THE EURO” is pretty clear – national economies are being clearly destroyed, and the Catalonia secession is also there in the lead- the exact point I made. That is Pan-Europe, the Coudenhove-Kalergi think-tank of the Mont Pelerin Society founded by von Hayek – known as the Friends of von Hayek to insiders such as Milton Friedman. Now up pops Goolsbee of Milton Friedman’s Chicago School, a behavioral economist who would like the “busses to run on time”! I filled out a bit of the Goolsbee background in case there is any doubt about the “titan” of american economics.

          • Tony Brogan

            YYes but to go in the other direction. not to break up the state to smaller entities but to envelop it in one large tent with a single government.

            While you are filling out past histories of people to identify their motives you should start at home and give us a dispassionate evaluation of the history of the activities of Mr laRouche. The whys and wherefores of his activities would make for interesting reading.

          • Realist

            Austrian school and Milton Friedman’s Chicago school are 2 totally different schools.
            For LaRouche every school is the same as you are mixing them all together :)
            At least they were all economists unlike LaRouche.

  26. molly

    Fianna Fail or should I say the last shower we removed from office are going up in the opinion polls.
    How can this be , is it the Irish mentality or are people so fed up with the current shower.

    • bonbon

      They consider themselves republican, as long as they express that they can profit. They sure made a mess though, and FG (which seems not think it is or ever was republican) an even bigger mess.

    • Philip

      “Don’t knows” are rising in number as well.

      • bonbon

        Don’t know is popular, a Tiger echo, still lingering on… “Me and my friends don’t know and would never try to say we know, now would we”. Cozy…

  27. wills

    Disagree.

    The German banks did not put a gun to the heads of mafia run Irish banks to take the excess cash and inflate a property pOnzi bubble and drown the Celtic Tiger in debt.

    • wills

      plus…

      The German pressgang for austerity boils down to the German leadership pissed off that the PIIGS robbed the savings of the German people and are refusing to let the PIIGS do a runner on paying it back.

    • Harper66

      I dont recall anyone putting a gun to the heads of the German banks to loan out their money either.

      Surely the best system is one where the borrow and lender must be prudent.

      BTW do you not find the term PIIGS grossly insulting?

      • wills

        The Banks are in business to lend so they lend.

        • Harper66

          yes but they were lending to everyone and anyone without due care.

          Should they enjoy immunity from the poor decisions they made ?

          A lender giving out money should have have to be as prudent as a borrow taking that money. The system would regulate itself then.

          • wills

            Incorrect on that point that the *banks were lending to everyone*.

            The banks were lending in a predatory way to their crony networks to inflate a ponzi property bubble.

          • bonbon

            “A self regulating system” based on private prudence? Sounds like magic to me. The Austrian School promotes that idea of spontaneous order, but unknowable to mere people who are stated as not having the capacity to understand the complexity.

            People who do know how banking works, Sandy Weill for instance, call for Glass-Steagall. Good banking emerges out of the Public Good, not from private vice.

          • Grey Fox

            The lender does not have to have due care! they are a business, what they do have to be is responsible for their decisions good or bad and they must stand or fall based on those decisions. In recent times, Sept 2008 is when the fraud was perpetrated and when our inept, schoolteacher trustee’s had the wool pulled over their eyes! So now we have nobody in power or close to in power who will call a halt to the madness. Until we do, we are up Sh1t Creek or down the Swanee whatever way you want to put it.

          • Harper66

            @ Grey Fox,

            The businesses( without political connections) that are still going and have survived the last five years are the very ones that exercised due care during the madness of the boom.

    • Dorothy Jones

      Wills, they did not, I agree. Udo Lindenberg’s savings [David's one] were lent to a few gamblers here. The problem is : they can’t pay back. Said gamblers being paid vast salaries by NAMA and debt transferred elsewhere. Away from banks.

      • wills

        Yup Dorothy. They are. This banking fiasco here in Ireland is run by an insider class who control the banks, law, govt and media.

        They ripped off the German banks.

        The German banks will not be taking for a ride.

        Simples.

      • Harper66

        Dorothy,
        do you not think Udo should be equally outraged at the poor manner in which his bank managed his money?

        It is well documented ,even in one of Davids books, that it was well known in the banking fraternity that Ireland had become a “financial wild west” and yet the German banks were happy to lend in here while there was money to be made.

        My point is this – if you had a system where bank and lenders had to exercise due diligence, things would be better for all of us.

        • bonbon

          That system was Glass-Steagall, repealed under Clinton in 1999, put in place by FDR in 1933 after the “wild west” of the 20′s.

          Sandy Weill of Citigroup, the wildest of all, has called for the re-instatement of the only method that can work – Glass-Steagall. Now there you have it, that’s the point.

        • wills

          The Germans banking system has a mafia contagion too, yes.

          But, the bottom line is its up too the borrower to exercise judgement.

        • Dorothy Jones

          Aaaah Harper and Wills…those 2 words ‘due diligence’….
          Yes, it was well-known that the situation was out of control here. As well as the ‘wild west’ comment; do you remember the outrage when German Ambassador to Ireland made his thoughts known back in the day? The man spoke the truth. At one of David’s talks, he made a comment about all of the Mercs outside; got frosty reception as far as I remember.
          Anyhows….all the Udos now want their money back..you’re right about that.

          • Joe R

            We should offer ‘Udo’ ghost estates and zombie hotels but tell him there is no cash…that is what happens in capitalism.

            If ‘Udo’ wanted to be sure he could get his cash back he should have invested in something a lot less risky, or left it under his bed.

          • bonbon

            What’s all this rubbish about “Udo”, it was “Hypo”. Maybe a mispronunciation? Or worse, a misapprehension?

          • Joe R

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udo_Lindenberg

            Apparently he is some kind of German rock star.

            I had thought he was the new ‘Gunther’. Silly me.

          • bonbon

            Hypo RE is the “bank” in question, involved. Not the only one, but since “rescued” by taxpayers, unwittingly of course. This qwas very thoroughly discussed in this blog a while back.

    • bonbon

      Interesting. A gun was put to the head of Chancellor Kohl to sign away the DM – his best friend Herrhausen of Deutsche Bank was blown up in his driveway after re-unification to get the message across. When Rohwedder tried to continue Herrhausen’s reconstruction plan, he was shot at over 1km. With this kind of geopolitics at the root of the very existence of the Euro, do you still cling to “gentlemen behavior”?

      Realizing the Euro is a British project from the get-go, and the Inter-Alpha banks are to be saved is the first step to sanity.

  28. Clare Leonard

    Direct Democracy Ireland ( Ireland’s new political party, as of 12 October 2012)

    1. We believe the agreement to socialise bank debts was reached under duress and coercion, and as such the agreement has no legal standing.

    2. In international law Odious debt is a legal theory that holds, a debt incurred by an administration for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the people, can under law be regarded as Odious.

    We have a case pending in the High Court.

    The actions of the ECB could well be considered “crimes of aggression” against the people
    of Ireland.
    We believe the Irish people are under no obligation under international law to pay this Odious debt.

    WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE IRISH PEOPLE, Direct Democracy Ireland intend to suspend all interest and capital repayments pending an international legal review.

    The aim of Direct Democracy Ireland is to operate as a service to each and every community across the country, who wish to organise and select their own candidates in the next general election. DDI are here to serve not to run a private party.

    Ireland is full of talented and gifted people,
    it is time to take the power back.
    Rather than being powerless, we hold the fundamental building blocks of power under our constitution,
    we can change any law we wish to change.
    We are a sovereign people.

    DDI desperately need, on a voluntary basis, help with social media, PR, Legal, finance etc. etc..

    We hope to hold public meetings very soon.

    Clare Leonard
    Financial spokesperson
    Direct Democracy Ireland.

    • molly

      Well done and you have my support.
      Question is not some of the dept all ready payed back with borrowed money,witch in a sence is like laundering drug money .
      When I say this I mean we have payed bond holders back that we should not have payed ,with money we did not have so we have compounded the proplim .
      What the government have done is turned bad dept into good dept ,at our expanse .

    • Dorothy Jones

      +1. Clare; Could you kindly please give a link or post a date where people can contribute/fall in behind you/ye?
      Regards Dorothy

      • molly

        Homepage | Direct Democracy IrelandDirect Democracy Ireland …
        directdemocracyireland.ie/
        Direct Democracy Ireland … This creates a platform of direct conscent for participatory decision making on a local and national level. … What Is Direct Democracy …

    • tsp_50

      Count me in Clare. Ditto a country full of talented and gifted people who really do want to make a difference. We have to motivate ourselves if we want our children to have a future in what is basically a great little country that is led by donkeys.

    • Deco

      +1. This nonsense of picking one of four useless media-filtered/vested-interest-mandated options is not working. It only serves the few at cost to the many.

      I presume you have an account that can take voluntary donations ?

    • Pat Flannery

      Clare Leonard: Let us know the “when and where” of your first public meeting. Also please post a web site if you have one.

    • bonbon

      “Direct Democracy” sounds great. I wonder where it comes from? As it is not Republican, claims to be international, and implies modification of the Irish Constitution, a little research is in order, would’nt one think?

      Arnie Schwarzenegger used the “direct democracy” modification of the Californian State Constitution by Hiram Johnson of the Progressive Movement, the tools of : recall, to remove corrupt politicians; initiative, to pass legislation directly by yes or no vote; and referendum, to repeal legislation by direct vote. Campaigning against “special interests”, he won the vote and then “kicked the butt”, as he boasted publicly, of the special interests of human services and health care, teachers, nurses, police.

      How about a historic precedent? Federalist Papers #49, for example : A confused, frightened and irresponsible electorate can be manipulated, by a well-financed campaign backed by a popular figure, who can effectively play on their confusion and fears, to pass legislation which actually goes against their best interests and the General Welfare. The Founding Fathers of the USA understood this danger, and therefore made it very difficult to amend the Federal Constitution.

      Their opposition to direct democracy is made clear by James Madison (Publius), in the Federalist Papers, Number 49, in which he presents the argument for a republican form of government :

      Madison warns that “executive power might be in the hands of a peculiar favorite of the people” (such as Arnie Schwarzenegger), which could lead to an outcome determined not by the “true merits of the question.” Instead, the public decision “would be pronounced by the very men who had been agents in, or opponents of, the measures to which the decision would relate. The passions, therefore, not the reason, of the public would sit in judgment. But it is the reason, alone, of the public, that ought to control and regulate the government. The passions ought to be controlled and regulated by the government.”

      What is the difference between the tools of “direct democracy” and the plebicites of Hitler or the the Jacobins, to circumvent the give and take of the legislature, a contempt for the parties? The Progressive Movement before was anti-republican. Are we seeing an attempt at Progressive Direct Democracy where the passions sit in judgement, not reason?

  29. Dorothy Jones

    Silver Coin Design Competition 2013 advertised by Central Bank in today’s Irish Times!!!
    I can’t get the link online…but Tony…if you are feeling creative… this one is surely for you :)

      • StephenKenny

        Kyle Bass is clearly interesting, but over 1.5 hours of general chat is a little long.
        The table on the Zero Hedge link displays the detail of two main things:

        Firstly, the current levels of outstanding debt for the listed countries.
        Secondly, the structural financial situations.

        The first is the thing that is generally talked about – and will inevitably result in writing down the debts, in one way or another. The only delay is about politics, and the political capital that the various players either need, or believe they can benefit gain.

        The second is the real problem: The gaps between income and expenditure, in terms of households, government, and corporations.

        Just look at rows 5 and 6, and consider whether all this talk focussing on the so-called PIIGS is actually a balanced view. The US, Japan, and UK will have to have make expenditure adjustments as horrific as most of the PIIGS. The one with the biggest shock coming is undoubtedly the UK, who seem to believe that they are pulling out of a recession at the moment. The US has the world’s reserve currency, so will not suffer the currency-driven problems that the UK will, and Japan is an industrial powerhouse and will just have to get their old people used to the idea that they’re going to have to be poorer and/or keep on working.

        Take a little time to look at the numbers, and consider how they translate when comparing countries.

        • Realist

          Very nice chart Stephen.

          The problem is HOW MUCH THEY SPEND and not the gap between income and spenditure, especially if such gap can be filled with more taxation and inflation.

          I believe they will all suffer, who will suffer most nobody knows.

  30. bonbon

    Council of Europe Rules Greek Labor Reforms Illegal; Greeks Cannot Afford To Bury Their Dead

    Oct. 19, 2012 (EIRNS)–At least some of the so-called “labor reforms” being forced on Greece by its international creditors have officially been declared in violation of European law. The 47-nation Council of Europe — based in Strasbourg, no relation to the European Union or the EU ruling agency, the European Council — declared that some of the reforms to Greek labor law violate European law. Its judgment, however, is non-binding.
    The ruling, based on an appeal by Greek public sector unions, concerned two measures adopted in 2010 that extended to one year the “trial period” during which workers can be dismissed without notice, and cut the minimum salary for workers under 25 years of age to two-thirds of the national minimum wage.
    The European Committee of Social Rights, headed by Luis Jimena Quesada, said the longer trial period ran counter to a clause in the charter which said workers were entitled to “reasonable” notice before their employment was terminated and that the lower wage meant young Greek workers had fallen below the poverty line of EU580 a month.
    “This ruling establishes the illegality of the measures concerned which can be invoked in the national jurisdictions,” Jimena Quesada told a news conference ahead of the ruling’s publication. Budgetary readjustments necessitated by the global economic crisis should not lead to an erosion of workers’ rights enshrined in the European Social Charter, he said.
    While lacking the power to enforce its findings, the Committee on Social Rights can make a recommendation to the European Council’s Committee of Ministers, comprising the member-nations’ Foreign Ministers, which can then adopt a resolution for a member-state to take corrective action. The trade unions will certainly take advantage of this ruling.
    While the Council should rule on the gross violations of humanitarian law which is causing genocide in Greece, Britain’s {Guardian} reports that Greeks can no longer afford proper funerals for their dead. Vanna Mendaleni, the former owner of the family’s bankrupt funeral home, told the {Guardian}: “After three years of non-stop taxes and wage cuts, it’s got to the point where nothing has been left standing. It’s so bad families can no longer afford to even bury their dead. Bodies lie unclaimed at public hospitals so that the local municipality can bury them.”
    “Greeks are becoming increasingly conscious …and it was especially noticeable that the main slogan today was ‘the time has come to overthrow these policies,’” Tania Karayiannis of the union of civil servants told the {Guardian}. As many as 80,000 people participated in yesterday’s protests in Athens alone, she said. “The political leadership of this country should not underestimate that. If they don’t take our opposition seriously, they will bear historic responsibility for the disintegration of Greece’s social fabric and the developments that will surely follow.”

  31. whatamess

    “..the developments that will surely follow…”

    i’m guessing those ‘developments’ won’t be the good kind

    “can’t afford to bury their dead ”

    what a world we live in …what a fuckin mess !

    • bonbon

      And now certain elements will try to move in “for the people”, with “Direct Democracy”, enabling-powers, demagogy, are just on the horizon.

      It seems the British Empire is pushing people to the point where passions not reason sit in judgement – Jacobin, sans Culottes, fascists.

      No time for any kind of laissez-faire, this is very dangerous.

      • whatamess

        “The passions, therefore, not the reason, of the public would sit in judgement” – that’s a truly worrying and insightful observation Bonbon

        i wonder what skill set(s) ,life experience,education,does/will one need for the crucial job/role of trying to counter balance /off set that emotional factor–the “passions”,which we know of the human condition is ALL powerful and influential in the decision making process…if it’s a rock,paper,scissors senario,passions will win everytime…

        Will we need a collection of the brightest minds like in the movie “Contact” with Jodie Foster to liase in order to make any quantum leaps/or big steps at least… a short list of philosophers,religious gurus,a few heads of state,Noble scientists,economists throw in a few old presidents with great form etc in order to just make a move,coz every move to take on HUGE endeavours such as NAWPAXXI , running punt nua /silver gold etc as tandem currencies,whatever else..takes balls yes ( and i think “our balls have dropped” to use biker parlance ) but sound strategic planning and execution

        the emotional factor MUST have copious amounts of LOGIC to have a good chance of success…if i could have the power to decide 2 people to sit and help arrive at the best way forward,i mite vote for Georg R Baumann ( now in Oz sunning himself :)and “Spock” from the “Enterprise” to be present :) And Bonbon,you would deserve a position there too …

        we’re at critical mass folks …. the event horizon is fast approaching …

  32. Hollande sur La Mer

    Today while in company at the Congres de Mutuelle en Nice M. Francoise Hollande passed by with his entourage of decorated colourful war generals . He was a real Magnet to everyone around him and displayed the enthusiasm of a pop star .Bono and himself would have stood shoulder to shoulder even in the shades.

    The last time I saw a politician here at the Acropolis was our Berti racing across sticking his chest out and going un-noticed.

    • Actually Noonan is known as ‘ Le Taureau Rotonde ‘ – the round bull . In reality he is liken to a character in Anthony Hopkins movie .

      I see him as a ‘ wheelie bin ‘ .

  33. bonbon

    Gerry Adams: If Government Separates Bank and Sovereign Debt They Have Sinn Féin’s Support

    Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams said the Government had failed at Thursday’s EU Council meeting to secure a deal on legacy debt because since they came into office they have never had a strategy to achieve such an objective.

    Mr Adams said a deal has to be done on banking debt as it was unsustainable but this will only be achieved if the Taoiseach changed tactics. If the Government does this he said, it would have Sinn Féin support.

    http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/gerry-adamsif-governement-separates-bank-and-sovereign-debt-they-have-sinn-feins-support/

  34. Clare Leonard

    http://directdemocracyireland.ie/

    Thank you for your support.
    I will let you know when/where our meeting is.
    Clare

  35. whatamess

    “It’s not a straight line, but rather, a parabola. If it were a straight line, the gold price would be rising at the same rate. But because it is a parabola, gold is rising at an ever greater rate. Gold is in an exponential upward trend.”

    super interesting Tony

    • Tony Brogan

      I am glad you see the relevance of the gold price to the fiat paper script. Most others don’t and more’s the shame as they will be left wondering what happened when the hyperinflation kicks in.

      more so with the price of silver. The working man’s coin. It will out strip the gold prce 2 to 3:1.

      if the government lackies will not let one have it as legal tender then do it anyway. Eat the tax and buy the coin anyway or buy it abroad and store it there.

      In Victoria there is a private storage vault where one can store 1250 ounces for 22 dollars a month plus 12% vat. OIt cam all be arranged long distance by wiring the money and sending electronic instructions.
      google CUBE storage in Victoria BC.
      Also Vancouver Bullion and coin (VBCE)

      • Realist

        Agree with you Tony.
        Just not to forget that the state can still coerce all these vaults, so spread it into multiple countries if possible :)
        They have the police, army and the law system behind so you never know as politicans are all coupled together even across borders.

    • Exponential

      Tulip implosion happened in the Holland when everyone believed their prices were ‘exponential’.

      Why is gold production and special metals extraction not moving fast enough now ? What would happen if they did ?

      Who owns the Golden Calf ?

      What will substitute ‘tongues of fire’ to the fiscal veneration we have now ?

      • Philip

        +1 Now is when to be cautious.

      • Realist

        Tulips are not gold.

        Read this article to understand it clearly:
        http://mises.org/daily/2564

        In essence the problem was similar to today’s with fractional-reserve banking, just based on increased supply of money (coins at that time) due to free coinage laws.

      • Realist

        Tulips are not the same issue as gold !!!!

        Read this:
        http://mises.org/daily/2564

        The issue was with the increase of money through free coinage laws, similarly what is happening today with fractional-banking credit expansion.

      • Tony Brogan

        The point is not that the price of gold is expected to move eponentially. It is that gold as the measuring stick is suggesting that the fiat currencies are depreciating at a faster and faster rate that will lead to hyper inflation.

        The currencies will buy(are buying) less and less until at some point they buy nothing at all.

        The ounce of gold will continue to buy what it has always and so that is why one saves in gold and silver. to avoid the loss of wealth inherent in the fiat currencies.

  36. bonbon

    The British Empire must be dissolved, freeing the UK from the burden of raping Africa and participating in a system of “governance” of captive puppet-nations – this is the only remedy now, first for the impeachment of Obama, and avoiding general warfare. The entire transatlantic region is now approaching desperation.

    http://larouchepac.com/node/24269

    This week we celebrate the Victory at Yorktown :

    http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/victory-over-the-british-empire-at-yorktown/

    • Tony Brogan

      We, is that the royal we again. Or are you a US citzen per chance?
      Funny thing is that the Canadians just grin and say that every time the US tried to invade Canada they were defeated. 3-0 to Canada I think.
      Especially savoured was repeling the Fenian inspired invasion and then revenging the sacking of York by going and burning down the White House.

      • bonbon

        You mean the 1812 War? That was Britain at it again. The Crown Dominion of Canada, with access to the Arctic has a great future, as long as the British Empire is disolved and with it its imperial greenie policies.

        Self-Developing Systems and Arctic Development: Economics for the Future of Mankind :
        http://larouchepac.com/node/20987
        Domed cities were already a part of Canadian former Prime Minister John Diefenbaker’s plans for the economic development of Canada’s far north, for example, and should be revived in the course of Canadian and American adoption of the North American Water and Power Alliance as policy . The plan for a domed city at the Frobisher Bay (since renamed Iqaluit), located at 62°49′59″ north latitude, well within the Arctic Circle, was to build a city in the Arctic “where the costs of living and comfort of the people would be equal to that of a person in Toronto,” which would house 4,500 people, and whose keystone would be a small nuclear power plant.

  37. morganf16

    we should threaten to pull out – convert debt to punt and then it would devalued in real time!

  38. Once again, I have a problem with this article from a money creation point of view.

    We’re told, “German cash, which cascaded into the periphery…”, giving the impression that the German Bundesbank was able to print lots of Euros, presumably the idea being that a country prints Euros in proportion to projected GDP or some other factor. German investors didn’t need these Euros after all and lent them to the periphery. This is just not the case at all.

    It’s the local commercial banks in the periphery countries which create Euros through loans. Separately again, German banks create Euros through loans in Germany and these Euros may or may not have been lent to periphery countries.

    If anyone would like a detailed description of how the system operates you can download our publication at http://sensiblemoney.ie/data/documents/How-Banks-Create-and-Destroy-Money.pdf

    For anyone who’s worried about elite bankers ending up with all the money in the economy bear in mind that banks delete the vast majority of the money they receive as settlement of debts to them.

    I know I may sound pedantic but I think we should fully understand the monetary system in order to analyse it. It’s only through education about banking that we’ll find a resolution to this crisis.

    If anyone is interested in how we could run the economy in a better way Ben Dyson from positivemoney.org.uk will be discussing full reserve banking on BBC Radio 4 on Wednesday 24th October at 8:45pm.

    • bonbon

      We fully understand the monetary system in all its forms, and exactly why it cannot function. We also know that a monetary system cannot ever rescue the current monetary system, especially the British Gold Standard.

      We fully understand that national credit systems, as Alexander Hamilton outlined with the First National Bank of the USA, is the way forward after Glass-Steagall puts the banks through, in good old layman terms, the Sheep Dip.

      We fully understand the efforts to continue with a monetary system are doomed to failure. Why, London’s Financial Times on July 4 2012 ran a full page call for Glass-Steagall. This is evidence that this current monetary system is doomed as all monetary systems are, and fully understood in London.

      • Realist

        As usual bonbon. You just give a hard time to some smart posters here with hard to understand explanations.

        How will your Glass-Steagall will prevent this Irish property pumping crisis caused by fractional-reserver fiat money system?

      • Tony Brogan

        pomposity knows no limit issued by bon bon.

    • Realist

      Thanks Paul.
      It is always welcome to hear some proper solution to the banking crisis.
      Finally somebody bringing full-reserve banking (100%) to the table.
      It will at least solve a half of today’s financial problems, the second one will still be left – sovereign debt problem with the state spenditure through tax coercion.

      I can see from the next related article it is regarded as a solution from not only my favourite Austrian school, but also Chicago school.
      http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/2011/10/economists-supporting-full-reserve-banking/

      Just to be clear, Friedman’s monetarist (and Fishers) approach is a dead end to me, proven being wrong, as they tried to use “the state of the art” mathematical models that rest on nothing real.

      The society needs to save first to be able to invest and grow and this is why 100% reserve banking!!!!

      • bonbon

        Just to clear some fog, Fisher brought, personally the Austrian School to Chicago. That “Chiacgo” seems a spinoff is not surprising considering the Mont Pelerin “friends of von Hayek” included Friedman, Hayek and Popper at the famous mugshot I posted 1 blog ago.
        Now Goolsbee is trotted out of the Chacogo stable as a “titan” of American economics – tongue-in-cheek I presume.

        Only a growing economy produces savings, and the way to get that going is Hamiltonian Credit Systems, a lot of them, not some monetary effort. Money is not hard to understand, as Galbraith said it repells the mind in its banal simplicity. Credit systems are hard to understand for monetarist not used to thinking.

        • Realist

          Irving Fisher was never Austrian economist!!!!!!
          Friedman also was not Austrian.
          Are you reading at all Bonbon:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_economic_thought

          Mont Pelerin society is formed with many different type of people, but who advocates the freedom of expression, free market economic policies, and the political values of an open society.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Pelerin_Society
          What is wrong with that ?

          It looks bonbon, you are for totalitarian society where any freedom is supressed.

          • Tony Brogan

            The aims of Mont Pelron society

            The group “seeks to establish no meticulous and hampering orthodoxy”, “conduct propaganda” or align with some party. It aims to facilitate “the exchange of views — to contribute to the preservation and improvement of the free society.[1]

            Something bon bon could try to emulate?

      • Thanks Realist,

        Just to let you know Ben Dyson from Positive Money will be on BBC Radio 4 tonight at 20:45.

        It should be a very interesting show.

        Check it out at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/

        Paul

  39. bonbon

    Time to help dismantle the empire of the Lord Snootys with Glass-Steagall!

    Enda Kenny tells us that he’s not going to waste time or energy chasing after rainbows. Well, we’d like to ask him just what he thinks he’s been doing this last 6 months, chasing after the mirage of a deal on Irish bank debt which never existed in reality and never could exist within the current financial framework. The Government’s belief that it was possible confirms that they are in a state of denial, or worse a state of ignorance, about the magnitude and the terminal nature of the breakdown crisis that we are in.

    http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/escape-the-lynch-mob-enda-go-with-glass-steagall/

    So, isn’t it time Mr Kenny, Mr Gilmore and company to at last face reality and to put group-think and pride behind you and go for the only solution that will work. It will take real leadership and courage. London will scream, at least those Lord Snootys, as Alex Salmond has titled them, whose empire you will be helping to dismantle. But for the opportunity to take the lead in laying the oligarchical system to rest, once and for all…well, wouldn’t an true Irishman seize that with both hands?

  40. bonbon

    EU SUMMIT #20 MEETS, DISAGREES, AND GOES HOME–AS EUROPE HEADS TO BLOWOUT AND CHAOS

    Oct. 21 (LPAC)–”All of Europe is in hyperinflationary blowout, and heading to chaos,” Lyndon LaRouche commented today. “What’s going to happen isn’t predictable. It can be intervened in; but it is not predictable.”
    When the dust settled on the Oct. 18-19 summit:
    * Germany’s Merkel had called for a supra national budget authority to impose still further austerity on the dying continent; and
    * France’s Hollande had failed in his effort to have a supra-national European banking supervisor in place by January 2013. Merkel kicked that can down the road for about a year, which means that the plan for a full banking union that would directly “recapitalize banks,” i.e. bail out the Spanish situation in particular, is similarly postponed. And that means that Spain’s financial situation is likely to explode in the next couple of weeks.
    As hyperventilating Ambrose Evans-Pritchard put it in the Oct. 20 {Daily Telegraph}: “Sorry to quibble, but there was no EU banking union deal last night. It was a step backwards… The EU has wasted the window of opportunity offered by the ECB’s Draghi Plan to restore market trust… Woe betide Spain.” He notes that Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy will have to launch “an assault on the public sector headcount. That is the point when Rajoy’s political woes turn ugly… With unemployment already at 25% — and 34% in Andalucia — we are in uncharted political waters. All we know from history is that the longer this goes on, the greater the likelihood of sudden rupture.”

  41. Tony Brogan

    Very interesting article by Ambrose Evans Pritchard.
    Would government issued money replace the debt based fiat money in existence and wipe out the National Debt.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/9623863/IMFs-epic-plan-to-conjure-away-debt-and-dethrone-bankers.html

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