August 23, 2012

Austerity can't help -- we're heading for mass defaults

Posted in Irish Independent · 327 comments ·

As noted in an excellent column in this paper on Monday by Stephen Kinsella, it is five years since the Irish economy began to concertina under the twin pressures of too much debts and collapsing growth. As we head towards six years, the question most reasonable people want to know is, “when is it all going to end”. Maybe the question should be not when, but “how is this all going to end”.

Using history as our guide and the recent episodes of debt-related boom followed by bust, we can safely say that as night follows day, massive borrowing splurges, huge mortgages and house-price booms lead to a protracted period of massive retrenchment, house price falls and a certain amount of defaults. It is not a matter of if, but when.

If a housing bubble can bust with collapsing prices, so too can a debt bubble with mass default.

For those looking for an end to all this, the default period signals the beginning of the end of the slump because this is the moment of realisation for both debtors and creditors that the world has changed irrevocably and in order to go forward, we can’t go back to the past. Contracts signed then, in good faith, simply can’t be delivered on because the new environment of falling prices and diminished income and wealth simply make this impossible.

The more new capital is used now to pay these old debts, the more fresh capital is wasted trying to make legitimate poor investment decisions, which were based on nothing more than “hot air” in the first place. It is throwing good money after bad, the ultimate expression of “dead money”.

A recent report by the stockbrokers Davy indicated that one-in-seven residential mortgages is in arrears.

The number is twice that in buy-to-let mortgages and overall, 50pc of all mortgages are in negative equity. We are now entering that zone where the reality of there being too much debt and not enough incomes, is beginning to dawn on most people.

The endgame is that someone has to lose — either the debtor or the creditor. The best solution is co-responsibility, where both debtor and creditor take a hit.

In Ireland, up to now the debtors — ordinary people with huge mortgages — are being asked to shoulder everything, while the creditors — the banks — are still behaving as if they expect to be paid in full. They won’t be, nor should they be.

The endgame starts with isolated defaults and then this process accelerates.

Bear in mind that 400,000 tracker mortgages are at historically low subsidised interest rates, which can only go up over the lifetime of the loan. The tracker phenomenon is a ticking time bomb because it gives an unrealistic picture as to the real cost of borrowing in this country.

But before we look at interest rates, let’s just briefly see what happens to the other key component that drives mortgage defaults — income — in the downturn,

The collapse in house prices leads to falls in consumer wealth and demand, which in turn, causes incomes to fall. As unemployment rises, the fall in income for those who lose their jobs is direct and immediate. But the collapse in demand also leads to lower general tax revenue and increases in welfare spending. The government budget deficit increases. Eurozone nations lack a sovereign currency and have great difficulty following the counter-cyclical fiscal policies that would allow a faster recovery from the recession. The decision to extend what was originally a temporary guarantee that was designed only to prevent an evident bank run, into an open-ended bondholder bailout of what turned out to be massively insolvent Irish banks, blew up the budget deficit to levels that a nation lacking a sovereign currency could not repay.

Bond vigilantes target nations that are in economic trouble and lack a freely floating sovereign currency because these countries have to pay back debt which is effectively in a foreign currency. Irish sovereign debt became far more expensive to refinance and would have become impossible to refinance without EU support. The great increase in sovereign debt costs makes the budget deficit surge. Credit rating agencies then downgrade Irish sovereign bonds, exacerbating the death spiral.

The EU’s Stability and Growth Pact then compounds the problem — demanding that Ireland embrace austerity at the worst possible time. The EU and ECB demand that Ireland increase taxes, reduce spending, and cut ordinary people’s incomes (to spur exports) in order to close the budget gap.

Tax increases and wage reductions reduce private sector monthly income, leaving less cash to pay the huge mortgage. This reduces private sector demand, which is already inadequate in a recession. The reduction in public spending reduces public sector demand. The recession deepens, unemployment increases, and incomes fall. Housing values fall even further. Tax revenues fall and unemployment expenses rise.

Austerity can increase not only unemployment, but the very deficit it is promised to end. The terrible truth is that a nation mired in a deep recession cannot ensure that austerity will reduce a budget deficit. Remember, while consumer income goes down, housing debt is fixed.

Over the course of the next year, as the economy continues to deteriorate or at best bump along the bottom, many thousands of people trapped in too much debt on houses that are worth half of what they paid for, will ask themselves:”what’s this all for?”

Will they chose to default, not because they are financial delinquents who always intended to abscond from their economic responsibilities, but because the sums don’t add up? And if they do, will this process become viral where each default gives the permission for the next guy to do something similar?

Remember, house prices rose and fell in a similarly viral manner, going up together and crashing back in tandem.

This is possibly the major economic dilemma facing Ireland’s political class in the years ahead.

  1. gizzy

    The values of loans must be writtne down in line with the value of assets.

    Should have happened three years ago and existing Banks ringfenced to deal with this process and new Banks set up.

    Made this proposal to the previous and current government.

    They preferred the Pillar Bank Strategy and a lot of slow pain and legal fees. But as I always ask who is adviing them ?

    • Coles

      “The values of loans must be writtne down in line with the value of assets.”-Gizzy
      Eh? Should loan amounts be increased if assets rise in value? I can’t see it working.

    • bonbon

      You know who Noonan brought in – 2 HSBC (HongShang Bank Corp the original Dope Inc, bank at it again).

      It is well known and was even reported in the IT (!).

  2. Actually, the end phase is the cessation of global economic growth. Economic growth, although deemed essential (according to the dictates of a debt/interest based economic system) is but a temporary phase permitted only while materials throughput can increase in tandem. Possibly economists, bubble wrapped in their own little world, are unable to appreciate this,but economic growth can only go so far in a finite world. As recently as 2005, Ireland was still talking of an annual growth rate of 4-5 percent. At the lower end of that range, that gives a doubling period (the period taken to double economic activity) of just 18 years. World gross economic activity was anticipated to grow at approximately the same rate.
    It is highly unlikely the world can accommodate even one doubling of resource consumption.
    Its over, quite nice while it lasted for the world’s most privileged but that’s it. The sooner people who inhabit bubble land get used to that idea, the sooner we can begin the process of trying to adapt. Everything else is just secondary. The laughable efforts currently being made to prolong this insanity, will only serve to make the final crash, when it comes, more painful.
    Is it that economists are innumerate, they can’t understand exponential curves, it is the study of economics more akin to the form of ‘medicine’ practised during the Middle Age – a lot of ignorant superstition, a good dose of religious fundamentalism, and a VERY small component of actual science?

    • MediaBite

      Great comment. You might be familiar with Professor Bartlett’s seminal presentation ‘The greatest failing of the human race is its inability to understand the exponential function’. It’s on Youtube and is highly recommended viewing for anyone who wants a dose of sanity and reality. We’re running out of stuff – forests, clean rivers, good soil, minerals, coal, oil – the lot. Talking about economic growth in this context is like demanding caviar and champagne for supper when it’s doubtful there’ll be enough bread and water.

      • Tony Brogan

        We’re running out of stuff — forests, clean rivers, good soil, minerals, coal, oil — the lot. Talking about economic growth in this context

        BC has larger forest than 100 years ago.
        River thames has a salmon run. Not so 50 year ago.
        %0 years ago India could not feed herself. Double the pop and India exports food.

        Minerals have substitutes. Plasics replace metal etc.
        Coal US has a 1000 year supply and so has britain.
        Oil -Huge find in East Med. See the wars.
        Vast reserves in the Arctic.
        US has 100 supply of Nat Gas and Canada second largest reserves of oil, US fracking (may be not the best) oil reserves for decades. Paris basin has reserves

        Things may not be great in some respects but there is a lot of stuff out there. We have not touched nuclear power.

        Water could be a problem but the technology for desalintion is there and the energy nuclear.

        There are less people hungry today than 50 years ago. Those that are suffer from stupid politics.

        • MediaBite

          There are definitely a few places in the world where efforts are being made to counter the effects of human generated resource destruction and depletion. But having more forest than 50 years ago, while laudable, is scarcely a drop in the ocean compared to the vast scale of deforestation that has taken place in BC and everywhere else. The associated soil erosion and depletion is impossible to correct. And measures like forest protection and sustainable management are proving extremely fragile in the face of corporate determination to wreck them. Agree a lot could be achieved if there was the political will to achieve it but there is virtually none of that particular resource – politicians everywhere are owned by vested corporate interests. However, as the comment says it is the exponential effects of the concept of economic ‘growth’ that is lethal. We need to be coming in at zero and even less for a good while to give the planet a chance to recover to levels that will sustain the current world population. Some resources are entirely depleted. China alone could use up everything that is available within 100 years at its current rates of consumption and growth. Jared Diamond has a good chapter on China in his book ‘Collapse’. I don’t know where the figure of coal for 1,000 years in the US comes from but the Bartlett presentation makes it clear that such claims are wild. The doubling time is the key point and it boils down to this: it now takes a tiny fraction of the time to use up the same amount of a given resource as it did throughout the entire period of previous human existence. We’re talking just a matter of years – even at a rate of just 2 or 3% growth. The party is over, as Andy says.

          • Tony Brogan

            vast scale of deforestation that has taken place in BC and everywhere else.
            Extensive forest harvesting has taken place and yes there are problems of uniculture in species, but
            The is following reforestation.
            All forest fires are put out so little is burned as it used to be. Techniques are improving and wood is a sustainable crop.
            IN New Zealand it is the same with a 25-30 year cycle of harvest. In BC I think it is closer to 75 years.

            I have been living with this constant end of the world cry for over 60 years and things overall are better today than ever.

            today’s problems are engineered by the elite dynistic monied families to create mayhem , distruction and control. They are lashing out in fear of defeat.

            gold and silver have been money for thousands of years and are reasserting themselves. It is just we in the west are blinded by misinformation as The rest of the world gets on divesting iself of paper ponzi money and trading in their own currencies and accumulating gold ready for the days it will be used as a standard again. We the ignorant ans fearful will be left behind as the power shifts elsewhere.

            This is worth listening to and you do not have to suscribe to the newsletter.


        • redriversix

          +1 Tony

          Absolutely spot on…!

        • bonbon

          Right about nuclear desalination, proposed as the Oasis Plan for Israel, Jordan and Palestine 25 years ago.

          NAWAPA instead moves water in large amounts from where the vagaries of geology to where it is needed. Same with the Congo and Chad, Arctic and Aral, and China’s Gobi.

          Financing of these huge developments (and the 6000GW shortfall in nuclear power right now – 6000 nuplex’s) is the key question.

          • Adam Byrne

            Mr. bonbon, you are an ordeal but I’d have to agree with you 100% about going ahead with this project. Sorry Tony, but we have been diverting water for thousands of years and people are going hungry and thirsty. Time to get on with it.

        • Tony Brogan

          US reserves 1000 years was a bit loose.
          239 years at current consumption of proven and probable reserves. Current consumption reducing as more natural gas is used.
          Assumption of undiscovered coal goes to 1000′s of years supply.

          250 years of recoverable supply here

    • Adam Byrne

      Any rational economist would understand and agree with what you say (in general) andy but most of them are just puppets in the hands of corrupt politicians, bankers and other power-hungry, genocidal maniacs behind the scenes.

    • enda1

      very good,but why is nobody talking about the big crash.not politicians or not anyone with it possable that the laws of thermodynaics dont matter to economics

    • You are dead right. Talk of ever increasing growth has been going on for the past century. We are now running out of resources and should be planning for it unlike the Easter Islanders who pushed themselves into extinction. Just look at the fish stocks in the oceans. There has been a human feeding frenzy ( a term usually applied to sharks, how appropriate!) and only when we have nearly reached rock bottom does anyone in the industry start worrying. There are numerous examples of man’s inability to think beyond his own immediate survival.

      • bonbon

        We are now at 7+ billion, heading for 9, and then 25 billion. It is well known what we must do to provide a civilized standard of living – water, transport, power, agriculture and industrial.

        Sir Henry Kissinger’s NSSM 200, the blueprint for population reduction by stopping agro/industrial development using “our” raw materials, is a recipe for genocide. But what to expect from one who served the Crown while in 3 US Administrations.

    • XM2010

      Thanks for that. At last a REAL big picture comment.

    • bonbon

      We are heading from 7+ billion human beings to 25 billion, with massive projects on the table for biosphereic engineering, water management and desert greening, all delayed because of the now stone dead financial system.

      Many are really loosing their marbles, just because their beloved system is a roach, and want to go after humanity itself.

      Now how many would you like to kill sir, 3 billion as Prince Philip recommends, or 4 billion as Dr. Schellnhuber CBE repeatedly promotes?

      So be clear on this issue – we are many and they are few!

    • andy…we need economic growth because the world’s population keeps growing. We need growth but not for growth’s sake. How many kids have you got? Aah..there’s the problem…

  3. irishminx

    At this stage, I wish mass default was here, as it’s grinding slow progress is tiresome! I want to see a mass collapse of Capitalism and then hopefully we can start afresh in a kinder more humane way of living. Not the New World Order way, that the Elites think will happen!

    Great article David :)

    • padser

      If you want a ‘mass’ collapse of Capitalism soon….then move to field in the middle of nowhere… and bring a gun!
      The fresh start you talk about will be minus hundred’s million people worldwide! And I don’t mean Bankers and Politicians.

    • irishminx…Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven’t had capitalism! A system of capitalism presumes sound money, not fiat money manipulated by a central bank. Capitalism cherishes voluntary contracts and interest rates that are determined by savings, not credit creation by a central bank. It’s not capitalism when the system is plagued with incomprehensible rules regarding mergers, acquisitions, and stock sales, along with wage controls, price controls, protectionism, corporate subsidies, international management of trade, complex and punishing corporate taxes, privileged government contracts to the military-industrial complex, and a foreign policy controlled by corporate interests and overseas investments. Add to this centralized federal mismanagement of farming, education, medicine, insurance, banking and welfare. This is not capitalism!

      To condemn free-market capitalism because of anything going on today makes no sense. There is no evidence that capitalism exists today. We are deeply involved in an interventionist-planned economy that allows major benefits to accrue to the politically connected. By all means condemn the current system, but call it by its proper names – Keynesian inflationism, interventionism, and corporatism.

      • rincewind

        Amen! We have not seen capitalism in a long, long time.

      • irishminx

        Thanks for the correction, however, I am fully aware of who is controlling the money/food/enviroment etc.

        I would love to see a world without money, no not a cashless world, no money period! I am told this is to idealistic. However, I go with this fact, Human beings are the only species who pay to live on Earth. I asked myself WHY this is so? Do we really need money? No, in my opinion. My opinion is not popular, nor is the fact, that I believe it is LOVE that will save us, if only we could honour each others differences. However, the big leap we all need to take is self love first, because if you and I loved who we are, we could not harm another! Again, this is not popular. If I dream big and aim for the stars, maybe, I’ll reach the moon!

        @Padser…….. I am well aware of what is coming down the track, however, I hope and pray that we humans can change enough to avoid most of it ;)

        Thank you for taking the time to respond.

        Trich :)

      • 33square

        Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion–when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing–when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors–when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you–when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice–you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that is does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

      • bonbon

        To paraphrase : Communism works, it was just never applied properly. Echoes of the DDR, USSR…
        It is very unsound to sound like Honnecker at the end in 1989.

        What we have is exactly “Private Vice, Public Virtue” economics. Exactly the economics of Von Hayek of the Austrian School. Sound money in the grumbling hive, as Bernard Mandeville called it, is utterly inept and in fact a swindle.

        So have a look at what von Hayek himself openly said and then look again at the von Mises Institute in a quite different light.

        It is amusing to see the very system propounded as the cure. With doctors like that who needs illness?

    • John Moriarty

      Capitalism can only work when we are far from system boundaries – it’s an unworkable ideal, and the presence of rules and regulations of commerce is an imperfect response to this fact. I am at heart a libertarian, however I recognise we are increasingly constrained by population growth and energy and resource deficits (coming soon if not here already) and environmental degradation. We cannot afford anything other than a managed economy and society for these reasons. So in practice we have to do what works, political and economic theory take second place.

      • bonbon

        So “what works” is not to be known by reason? It “just works” in some unknowable spontaneous way?
        That is in fact the “economic theory” of Austrian School luminary, Von Hayek.

        Ireland is founded, by Arthur Griffith, on a political economic system which he very well explained. He brought Germany’s Friedrich List’s point-for-point comparison of Alexander Hamilton’s American System to the British “Capitalism”, a devastating expose of Smith.

        • Tony Brogan

          There were economies before there were economist and they worked fine. Yes they just worked.
          You are a statist, an interfering busy body and as such contribute to the failing economy. You arte a meglamanic with grandiose plans but I have yet to see you spell out how your Hamiltonian bank actualy works as you are too busy ridiculing those that do succeed.

          As for the mighty plan for North American you would run rough shod over the laws and rules of a sovereign country, Canada.

          • Adam Byrne

            Countries, borders and ‘sovereignty’ (ludicrous concept) are fabricated concepts which are used to control and discriminate against people in the very same was as your much despised central banks Tony.

            Just as a thought experiment, if India was situated south of Canada, instead of the USA, and half a billion people were dying of thirst, would you still insist on the ‘sovereignty’ of Canadian rivers/water?

            No one is suggesting running rough shod over Canadian laws but the resources of the world should be shared equally among its people. If Canada (or any other so-called country) wants to keep the necessities of life for itself to the detriment of hungry and thirsty children (which is what it essentially boils down to – the greening of the American deserts would vastly increase crop yields, open up new areas for immigrants and others to populate and drive down prices – if managed correctly, i. e. not on the basis of speculation) then something is obviously wrong with people‘s view of the world.

            You need to see the wider picture Tony. There’s more to life than central banks, gold and silver, and especially so-called ‘sovereign countries’ – a ridiculous concept that is responsible for much of the world’s suffering.

            I don’t belong to any despicable country, flag or passport, neither does anyone else. All men and women are created equal.

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi Adam
            Actually individuals found they worked better together in cooperation. Starting in groupings as hunter gatherers.
            Then came agriculture and the organization of city states.
            rules and regs were devised for conduct and particularly for the protection of the individual and then the group.
            It became necessary to protect the growth and prosperity worked for, from marauderers, pirates and thieves.
            The difference between the nation states and the central banking system is that we have allowed the pirates and thieves within the society and they operate the central banks and the money system.

            Nation states can ally with each other in agreements for the common good but the pirates and thieves (central bankers ) within these states have created a world wide net work to rob the people blind while they pretend to be good citizens.

            For the people and the nation states to share resources and ideas equitably, a medium of exchange was needed. By experiment and use it became practical to use gold and silver as this medium of exchange. Thus these metals became precious to humanity and the essential link for the betterment of mankind.

            You need to study money. what it is. Why it is necessary. what makes good money. what makes poor money. What are the attributes of good money.

            Then you will understand why humanity picked for the most part gold and silver and why it has been money for thousands of years.

            Yes there is more to life than gold and silver but the existance of gold and silver used as a medium of exchange makes a better life for all

            The use of bad money is fostered by the central banks as the bankers can now skim off the wealth of the people and eventually bankrupt them.
            you see this happening today all around the world.

            I tell you and many others have too, that the fundemental reason for the collapse of the society today and the advent of the evil imposed upon us is because of the use of bad money controlled by the few.

            Therefore to reverse the trend and restore society to prosperity it is essential to root out the bankers, close the central banking system, stop fractional reserve banking and return to a metal based system that for good reason is called honest money.

            This concept is ridiculed by the evil and corrupt as well as the ignorant. It is why Ron Paul is the only politician to listen to today as he is the only one educated in the concept of sound money.

            currently the Republicans at the Tampa nomination conference are twisting and turning all the rules, illegally to deny Pon Paul most of his bona fide deligates to prevent his nmae standing as a nominee for the leadership of the party. Today corruption rules and it started with the control of our money system by unscrupulous people.

            Be not deluded but go and study the subject matter of money and become enlightened.

            As far as the Proposal to degrade a huge area of unspoiled territory for the supposed benefit of another.
            It is a LaRouche inspired project that has been studied by the US core of engineers. It has no political support in Canada, the US or Mexico.
            It would involve the complete theft of the water of the MacKenzie river system, one of the largest in North america and the world. The consequences to the environment in that basin are unknown but can be envisaged.
            The diversion of the waters would involve large areas of storage lakes that in turn would change the local climates and destroy the land submerged.
            The use of the water would be of debatable value. already the world complains that the USA uses 25% of the worlds energy with just 5% of the population.

            Irrigation of desert lands is not necessarily a positive long term outcome. It can lead to alcalinity of the soil and degradation of the soil.In any event as a free citizen of the world Adam you should object to the 99.99% telling you what to do with your home and territory your ancestors have inhabited for millenia. That is what the natives of the Yukon and BC will tell you to do with yourself and your project.

            By the way all men and women are not created equal. Some are vastly better off, more talented etc and others are deformed and die quickly. Perhaps you mean that all people ought to have equal opportunity and not be enslaved by others.

            It is precisely that concept that leads to my promotion of sound money to escape the rapcious clutches of the international bankster dynastic families that would make slaves of us all.

            You need to think a little deeper Adam. Having said that I like you and consider you a good man. So keep up the challenge and enjoy your family. They are the basic social group and the foundation of a civilised society.!!

            But please research what money is and why good money is essential for the benefit of people.

          • Adam Byrne

            I trust you on the money stuff Tony, it makes sense. I’ll get back to you on the other points you have made in a day or two as I’m on the road at the moment – in Tralee to be precise, for the first time since a kid.

  4. michaelcoughlan

    ‘For those looking for an end to all this, the default period signals the beginning of the end of the slump because this is the moment of realisation for both debtors and creditors that the world has changed irrevocably and in order to go forward, we can’t go back to the past’

    Really David? I couldn’t disagree with you more! You have arrived at this conclusion because you view the problem like an economist. Remember doing the job properly in Ireland is the worst thing possible.

    What this signals is the end of the brginnining. After the nass default the Final figure of bad debt will be arrived at. Once that figure is known the bankers and their serfs (politicians) will be able to give and accurate picture as to the length of time grinding austerity lasts for as the state will still be forced to pay down as much of that debt possible.

    Did you not see film McCarthy on the Vivivivincent amamamahm Brbrbrown show last night? The ECB exceeded it’s powers when it forced Irrland to take all the cost of saving the euro instead of apportioning the total cost among all the member states. McCarthy is s heavy weight real world economist also and the figure he feels we were shafted for is north of 20bn! He feels we have s case to have the ECBs decision reviewed in the relevant European courts because the dame criteria was not applied to Spain!

    We are looking at 30 years or more of grinding austerity and slump McWilliams! Begining of the end of the slump my arse!

  5. mjm2000

    30 years ago a banker was a well respected person in our society now in ireland I see them as gangsters hiding behind a terrified government whom ought to stand up to the mark and put them in their sorry place unfortunately Mr Alan Shatter
    squander that chance by giving the dysfunctional

    banks a veto in the new
    insolvency bill a mistake that will come back to haunt him in my opion people will put the keys in the letter box and leave ireland for a new life and a fresh start if the government had given people in real debt a chance to surrender their property and end it at that it would at least keep people in the country mass default mass emigration is on the way its already started to hell with the banks to hell with weak banks . Are we going to go back to Yeats September 1913 poem “Ireland’s dead and gone its with O’Leary in the grave” ?

  6. Adam Byrne


    • Adam Byrne

      I thought this article came to a sudden stop David, I was expecting you to develop your argument a bit more.

      At this stage we need realistic suggestions for solutions to these problems from someone with a bit of ‘pull’ like yourself.

      All due respect to the posters on here but they can talk themselves up their own arses (as they frequently do) and still no one listens, nor will they.

      You, on the other hand, have a bit of influence in the corridors of power despite what the government propagandists might like to say.

      These issues have been well-documented by now, from almost every conceivable angle.

      If there’s going to be any sort of action on them, the time is now, and it’s fast passing.

      • Adelaide

        Re: Solutions
        I would appreciate anyone’s suggestion.

        Inspired by E.C.Riegel I have recently devised a monteray model based on his priciple of self-issued credit.

        It is designed for organic growth by means of fractal duplication from the solitary local level to ultimate global implementation. Its grandiose title is ‘Mutual Credit Fractal Consensus Model’.

        Not to come across as deluded but the handful of people who have recently read the manifesto have found it be logically sound and user-friendly and all say that ‘somebody should try that out’.

        What steps would you suggest to implement this theoretical model into a real-life localised experiment? Its initial starting point requires a group (or groups) of fellow participants to initiate one (or mulitple duplicated) local cells.

        For that to happen it requires at least one receptive group of people to simply give it a go. That’s where I come up blank.

        Before it ends up in my drawer gathering dust I would sincerely wish to give it an honest attempt.

        Any suggestions?

        ps please no critiques or criticisms no matter how valid or witty, just looking for constructive advice, thanks.

        • michaelcoughlan


          I am getting involved with a local exchange traded system. I suggest you contact Laurence Vize at He is organising workshops on lets and time bank systems in Prussia Street in Dublin at 4pm on sept 2nd. If your system stacks up I am sure Laurence and his colleagues will take on board your system as they are part of the occupy dame street group and are committed to all things self sufficient.

          Don’t bother with many of the commentators on this blog. As one other commentator accurately pointed out many of us are far too good at talking ourselves up our own arses on this blog to do anything proactive.

          Best wishes,


        • padser

          Assume you implement your strategy then who provides for the handicapped, what incentive is there for competition to make things better?
          If you find a receptive group of people and then starts to get popular and the government tells you to pay tax…there are only so many hours you can work in a day. The closest group in Ireland today working your scheme is called the Travelling Community. Or Politicians …nod and a wink / you scratch my back Etc. It’s too idealistic, too soon… you are ahead of your time!

          Sorry’ couldn’t resist your request…but this is a forum

          • padser…”who provides for the handicapped?” There are many private organisations (i.e. non-government) in the field of charity and the evidence suggests they are far more effective in solving social problems – poverty, homelessness, and illiteracy, to name a few – than government programs funded by tax payers.

            This is because private organisations treat the whole person. They get to the root of problems that stem from spiritual, attitudinal, and behavioral deficiencies. They also demand accountability, which means they don’t simply give the needy a cheque every two weeks without expecting the needy to do anything in return or to change destructive patterns of behavior. If they don’t produce results, they wither; the parishioners or those who voluntarily support them will go elsewhere. When a government program fails to perform, it just taxes the population for more money.

            Millions of people every year happily and voluntarily donate money to these private organisations – Red Cross, Medicines sans Frontiers, Salvation Army and countless others. On the other hand, government believes it is best placed to administer to the needy, an idea that is so pervasive that many people in the world – like you – believe this to be an infallible truth.

            So if you think the government does the best job…let me ask you this, if you came into a windfall of money and you wanted to leave some to the needy, would you write your donation cheque to a government welfare department?

          • bonbon

            Eh, don’t bother? Slightly imperial aren’t we? This blog is open, and various efforts at censorship only exposed themselves in public.

          • bonbon

            Ah, so now the ill and weak, old must rely on private charity, while the banks are bailed out in the billions by the state. This is pure Austrian School dogma, that the nation-state is not committed to the Public Good, the General Welfare.

        • irishminx


          There is a group that is growing around Ireland called “Awaken Ireland” and I am involved with them.
          On the 3rd September they have a meeting in the Imperial Hotel in Cork at 7 PM, called, Join the conversation. They are not arm chair warriors. They really are about finding solutions financially / economically and enviromentally and they tie in with all other groups around Ireland.

          I like your idea and feel it could work, as when this financial fiasco finally dies, many people will panic and won’t know what to do. This is where all good and great ideas/solutions will need to be in place, I feel.

          So if you wish to contact me, please do so.



          • padser

            @scbarlow Hi’ I agree with all of what you say…but your taking me out of context! In response to @Adelaide ” Mutual Credit Fractal Consensus Model”, I used the term ‘Handicapped’ as an example of how certain classes of people could fend for themselves, with the idealistic model they proposed! If it is your contention that a “private charity organisation” operates similar to that model …then I think your a little misguided also. I’ve worked for private charity organisations as one of the genuine unpaid volunteers – because my circumstances allowed me to (ie. my wife was working so – while I was not employed I contributed time to others Etc.) But a lot of workers for these charities get paid – they don’t live off the clipping’s of tin or more relevantly untenable gratifications – for like!

      • Dorothy Jones

        Adam, I thought the article was a bit ‘truncated’ alright; maybe due to the limit set by the Indo though. One useful development might be to outline the alternatives to paying interest only on mortgages; which seems really punitive to the borrower in the long run. New Beginnings suggest sensible ways around this, where repayments continue to be made, but the banks take a small hit.

        • Adam Byrne

          Yeah, at least it would be a start Dorothy. It may already have been agreed to in isolated cases.

        • Deflated

          Banks will only offer what they have available and wont come to any additional agreement as they are playing a wait and see game – this was told to me directly by one such bank! They dont want to agree to anything as personal insolvency is around the corner and they want to play it out and get as much as they can in the door from now until then. I think you need to make plans and see where you can go from jan 2013.


      • bonbon

        Solutions are being presented all the time and will continue. You are not the judge of which are acceptable. DMcW knows very well what real solutions mean. Have you any idea what is going on?

        • Tony Brogan

          But he is entitled to an opinion without being told to shut down.
          Arrogant , bullying, bluster.

        • bonbon

          Solutions are being presented here. I believe many including DMcW know that. To imply none are being posed is simply untrue, no matter what opinion reigns.

          At least DMcW keeps the door open for dialog.

  7. michaelcoughlan

    Hi irishminx,

    If you have been reading this blog for a couple of years you will realise that the way the world has been run by bankers is NOT capitalism. Capitalism is trying to reassert itself because in a capitalist system when you fuck up as badly as the bankers have (depending on your perspective) their respective organisations should have been liquidated by now. This hasn’t happened! So bring back capitalism is what is in fact required.

    • Eireannach

      If capitalism is based on a banking system that charges interest on loans, then capitalism will require economic growth, which is no longer possible on a planet with increasingly exhausted natural resource supplies.

      We are not going back to (growth oriented) capitalism.

      If will have to be an interest-free, usury-free banking system underpining SMEs. But we don’t have that, so we’ll continue with what we hav, until it completely collapses as at the end of the Western Roman Empire.

      We are not going to change, we are going to continue on in the same direction we are moving in until we completely, irreversibly collapse.

      • Adam Byrne

        It’s true, the greedy are not going to change their ways.

      • StephenKenny

        It isn’t, and it doesn’t.

        The problem is nothing to do with capitalism, or socialism, or any other political or economic construct. It is to do with the systemic breaking of the rules. This problem is as old as the hills, and potentially hurts more because it global, immediate, and people have much further to fall than in bygone ages.

        No system can exclude crime and corruption, although some are better than others, for a while. Until, for example, the underworld gets the hang of the system and realises that the best way to rob a bank is to own one, not walk in with a gun. Then all best are off – just look out of the window to see what that looks like.

        As for growth being over, that’s just the most absurd nonsense. In no part of nature, at any time, is stasis possible. Things go up, and they go down. When times get tough (climate changes, etc) species adapt or die, and as ‘times’, in this context, are always changing, species are always changing. Or dying.

        Out civilisation has so far adapted very well to natural changes, as well as changes that it has wrought. Growth doesn’t necessarily require more resources, because if there are less resources then we will adapt our technology to do better – we always have. One of the most dramatic technological revolutions was the introduction of the four course rotation in the 18th century, increasing agricultural yields by 30%, almost over night. The green revolution in the 1970s, although far more expensive and complex, increased yields by 100%, although the jury is still out on it’s longer term sustainability.

        With oil over $100, people will use less less petrol, and travel in other ways, or travel less. At worst, when resources cause conflicts between regions, we may end up fighting over them. Whatever we do, we’ll keep on, basically, moving forwards.

        One thing that is very clear from history is that it is those societies that organised themselves such that the great majority didn’t suffer, that survived the best. One of the man reasons that Rome fell was that for the majority of farmers and local artisans, life under the Roman state was actually worse than under the invading Germans. The world lost a great civilisation, but for the majority of the population of the day, life without a highly bureaucratic, expensive, and highly interventionist state machine, was a significantly improved.

        • Eireannach

          Wrong – it’s to do with compound interest on bank loans, and the consequent requirement for perpetual economic growth on a finite, resource limited world.

          Some poster above has already made this point.

        • Eireannach

          BTW the green revolution is utterly oil dependent, and oil is running out, as are underground water aquifers, fresh water, fertile top soil, I could go on.

          We will crash in numbers and regroup. I’m not interested in discussing this futher with deluded growth-nutters, we saw where that got us with the property crash.

          The human population is the next bubble to crash, after China lands hard and peak oil undermines everyone, everywhere.

          • bonbon

            Animals die waiting for rain. Are you seriously suggesting humanity will wait like Dinosaurs? We move water to where we need it (even in rainy Mayo they found out that without modern water management people die).

            Come on ecology is for horses, we are discussing economics, the national system of political economy here.

            Horses do not do that, not even houyhnhnms.

        • Tony Brogan

          I’m with you Stephen
          innovation is the key
          Yesterday on Local CBC radio was an interview demonstrating this.
          Local company bought a small plot of indutrial waste land. After trials to prove concept. Is building a large greenhouse complex. Hydroponic growing system on trays on racks several high. All racks move constantly so plants all get same light and space exposure. A 25 day cycle produces green leaf vegetables.
          These are marketed locally with contracts of purchase.
          Production is (I forget the figure quoted) hundreds of tonnes of produce per acre per year. All at competitive prices and organic produce.

          Even in a depression people must eat. There is money to be made by thinking ofthe next step.
          no massive dislocations of the envirnonment with mass change of water courses to green deserts.
          Think local. Act global. Lots of room here for new horticultural models.

        • bonbon

          They did not break the rules, they changed them so everything they did was legal. Sandy Weill of Citi effectively said this. We had rules until 2000, just look what happened. President Fernandez refers this clearly in the above post link.

      • bonbon

        We did change, the Roman Empire continues as the British Empire today, and is collapsing. We still managed to achieve 7+ billion, where population remained flat for the 400 years of the 1st Empire. We have exponentially increased out population and density, longevity. We have a lot to do, that’s what political-economics is all about.
        Instead of looking back to a past that will never exist again, we choose a future. Empires suppress that. Why do their dirty work?

    • bonbon

      Exactly what President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner said recently. Political Leadership Must Confront the “Casino Capitalism” That is Killing People :

  8. gizzy

    + 1

    As some commentators have stated capitalism for the citizen socialism for the wealthy and the Banks.

  9. I just don’t remember the referendum where the Irish people voted to sign the international agreement which indebted the country for the foreseeable future…

    • It was drip-fed through the various Treaties, even the ones which were rejected and re-voted on. We gave away our Sovereign right to self-governance.

      • I take your point; but when the Irish people ceded our sovereignty in these successive referenda, did they also jettison the constitutional right to have each international agreement subjected to plebiscite because if they didn’t, I’m struggling to see how the Fenian Failure Party was able to legitimately sign the country up to an international agreement like the one signed with the IMF in Nov 2010.
        It seems to me that Mary McAleese (a lazy FF cypher) also let us down by not referring the bill to the Supreme Court when it came before her…If I’m wrong on the constitutional niceties, I’d be genuinely grateful to be set straight, because the way I see it, the country’s been fist-f**ked economically while a mockery has been made of the state’s constitutional legitimacy by enemies of the state more dangerous than the balaclava brigade.

        • padser

          Bill wasn’t sent to the Supreme Court cos the judges knew they were in for a pay cap and Mary didn’t want to take the chance they might be uncooperative!

        • bonbon

          Well in Germany it is referred to the Constitutional Court who will make a preliminary statement on Sep 12. Michael D. has also that option.

          To be perfectly clear, the nation-state is the target, the removal of the last vestiges of General Welfare. Now the only entity that could possible want that, including removal of the US Constitution (the first) is the enemy of the nation-state. This is called Empire. Hitler and Napoleon destroyed every nation-state they got their hands on. So it is perfectly clear these were imperial lackeys. Today the EU-Euro monstrosity is the same. Look at the rubble of the nation-state of Greece.

  10. Philip

    I do not mean to detract from DMW’s article and the situation in Irleand, but really, we as a country arereally subject to the whims of what is happening globally irrespective of what we do

    1) QE 3 starting in US and/or the mother of all tax hikes or spending cuts
    2) QE for real (not the coverup trash for cash nonsense) in the EU in an attempt to absorb the mess in the EU.
    3) Euro ramp in oil costs as we head to winter (even though it is headed lower for now) becasue of 2)
    4)Food costs heading up considerably

    If we have mass defaults, it’ll also be in the midsts of possible desperation as people try to feed themselves and stay worm. Maybe it may not be that bad. In Ireland we seem always to sweep elephants and gorillas under the carpet with ease!

    • bonbon

      Correct on the strategic context. I do not believe FG has succeed in hiding the 600lb gorilla. I have posted here the latest interview (DT) with the inventor of QE, Professor Werner. Just look at the last paragraph, he lets the cat out of the bag. That cat cannot be put under the carpet.

    • A great article David, which makes perfect sense. The only problem is that we are stuck with a Government reminiscent of the Muppet Show who have to Google the word “Economics”. Kenny, the chief Muppet is akin to a schoolboy wanting to be the ‘leader’ but hasn’t a clue how to lead a piss-up in a Brewery. Gilmore the deputy Muppet is like a deer staring into a set of headlights, while Noonan is reminiscent of Mickey mouse getting stuck into a block of Feta cheese. As for the rest of the show, it’s just not worth commenting on. They’re all doing their own thing while digging a deeper hole for the country. Perhaps, when we as a nation adopt a sense of outrage, then, we might be able to elect a Government who understands Economics, rather than a failed secondary teacher and a rabblerouser as his side-kick.

      • bonbon

        I think you got it right with the deer. What does Noonan see do you think, something to cause catatonic paralysis and waffle all over the media?

  11. GaZumped

    Couldn’t agree more. Just exactly how big does this herd of stampeding, dung-dropping elephants-in-the-room need to get before the penny (woops, ‘cent’ – no wait, ‘penny’…) drops and the banks start writing off large chunks of this mammoth debt.

    • Eireannach

      Do you think they’ll give you money off?

      Nonsense! You’ll pay in full or be repossessed, like in the UK, the US and indeed everywhere else in the world.

      The elephant in the room is the deluded public who actually think they’l get out of the debt-mess their in with their property still in their name!

      • GaZumped

        …they can take everything, my house, my worldly possessions, and even my comfy chair. But wait, speak of the devil, they’ve just arrived at the door…

      • bonbon

        They are bankrupt and cannot save themselves. Citigroup’s Sandy Weill, whom I often quote here, said so. Every bailout in the world cannot save them.

        It is becoming clear they will be split, and a viable commercial sector must be protected. When that happens, ant it will, huge changes will occur. That is if Obama does not burn the entire planet before with war on Russia. But even that cannot save the financial empire more correctly the 4th Roman Empire – the British Empire.

  12. edcase

    There is only three classes of people this state cares about Speculators,builders and financiers the rest us will just have to put up with it or leave.The state has done everything it can to protect and bail out these people to the detriment of Ireland.Now we the people are paying of these debts through taxation.The sooner the whole lot collapses the better.

  13. DC

    In my opinion the real situations facing all western economies are inflation vs deflation scenario.

    Due to massive monetary easing, we now have not only ZIRP(zero interest rates) but NIRP Negative interest rates).

    Infaltion is not showing up in CPI due to the nature of how it is calculated.

    Savings are destroyed by NIRP,ZIRP.

    Commodities are soaring (Oil,PM’s, Foodstuffs)which are in effect adding to inflation and hurting those who can least afford it.

    However on the other side of the coin we are suffering in a deflationary economy, lower wages, lower asset prices, lower lending etc.

    If inflation does break out due to a monetary policy reversal, then the cost of interest repayments(personal,corporate and sovereign) will soar.
    This will make repayments on govt debt unpayable and default will follow.

    If western Govts remained committed to monetary easing, then we face the destruction of the fiat currency system by currency debasement and the continuation of a taxation system that destroys economic growth.

    The problem David is describing is merely a microcosm of the global economic problems facing us.

    We must examine our place in the overall financial system and prepare for a massive realignment in economic global trade.

    Globalisation is dead and ironically it is the very thing that killed western economies.

    I guess greed, short sightedness, and the ever growing demand for more for less has shifted the global power balance.

    The old assumptions and paradigms we continue to base our future on are now defunct.

    • Adam Byrne

      Yep, it’s all about the GREED, GREED, GREED, pure and simple.

    • bonbon

      You are right about globalization – I posted Japan’s exports disaster recently. But never forget, we are totally dependant on this for food etc. If it breaks down, a maritime shipping based system, without the Eurasian Landbridge in place massive famine will occur.

      One of the old paradigm assumptions is that economics is a game. It is not.

  14. Adam Byrne

    A lot of new posters all of a sudden today on the site. Maybe we are finally reaching ‘critical mass’.

  15. Skirmish

    Clears throat…

    ‘A worse unemployment rate than Greece. A Spanish economic miracle turned catastrophe. A lost generation of indignados with no homes, no work, and no faith in the system. An austerity government who in nine months have already pushed miners to armed conflict, firing home-made rocket launchers at riot police. An Economics Minister whose last job was director of the Spanish branch of Lehman Brothers.

    And right in the middle of the Andalucian countryside is Marinaleda, a little-known communist utopia led by the charismatic poet-rebel, Juan Manuel Sánchez Gordillo: a town of landless labourers who for over 30 years since the death of Franco, have fought capitalism – and won.

    In this travelogue through Spain’s violent past and febrile present, Dan Hancox finds a lost generation in search of answers beyond the confines of capitalism, and an extraordinary community who have already created their own answer.

    “Hancox captures the optimism necessary for alternative ways of doing politics, economics and living together. As the borderline between dream and reality shimmers in the heat of Andalucia, we begin to wonder if living as if change were indeed possible is the very key to making actual change happen. Do we really have any other choice?” – Suzanne Moore, The Guardian

    “It sounds like science fiction: a small rural town led by a charismatic mayor tries to turn itself into a communist utopia. But it’s fact – it’s happening right now in Andalucia, and colliding with the region’s real-world history of violent rebellion and radicalism. Hancox’s book could not be more timely – with Spain on the brink of social crisis and the shadows of the past emerging.” – Paul Mason, Economics Editor, BBC Newsnight’

  16. redriversix

    Good Afternoon

    We,as a Country and as a people need to implement a mass default with immediate effect.

    This is not a “Fiscal Crisis” it is a Banking crisis and a financial War.

    The Current Banks supported or owned by the Government and the people… are incompetent and insolvent and 5 years down the line we are no closer to improving our Country’s balance sheet.

    Their is no leadership in Banking,their regulators or our Government.

    The U.S federal reserve is once again on the verge of creating more debt to solve a debt problem,this has proved time and time again to be a failed policy which is replicated around the World

    Budget 2013 will again follow a path of crushing austerity and it is suggested that this will be the most severe budget to date,yet Government still spin /report that their policies are working…… This has been proven to have failed consistently.

    Banks continuing not to lend,but continue to receive cheap money yet inform their customers that they are increasing their private or business loan costs,reports that many loans have jumped from costing 2.5-3.5% to 6/7% appear accurate.Banks report the cost is equivalent to risk yet the increased banking costs and downturn in trade appears to push small and medium businesses and households over the edge.

    Banks are being investigated around the world for alleged criminal Activity , Libor [rate] rigging and questionable practices

    David has already spoken about the mortgage crisis in this Article.

    These failed Irish Banks must be closed with immediate effect an a new bank or banks set up to provide the services that banks were originally designed for, and no more.

    There are far too many lobbyists in Banking circles who have the ear of Government and this practice must be stopped forthwith

    The few in positions of power across our banking and political spectrum must be removed and held accountable for their actions in the continuing destruction of Irish society.Their is a clear breakdown of Government and regulation and their is far too much concern regarding political careers and pensions than their is for the People of this State which has been allowed to be hijacked by the Troika,I.M.F and the E.U/E.C.B

    Government is not concerned with the fate of its people.It is working now for some kind of global elite and gives its priority to the 1% rather than to those who elected them under false pretenses….. they promised to rectify the problems of this State.

    With Economies around the World in deep tail spin and no sign of correct policies to rectify this , we must assume this crisis is very profitable for those in power.

    Ireland must regain control of all its Natural resources with immediate effect.
    Ireland and its Government must begin a process of reducing the Civil service,Quanqo’s and the County Council which are ineffective around the Country.

    All politicians and Senior Civil servants must have a pay-cap introduced of a Maximum of 55k per year.Pensions to be put in line with immediate effect and the banning of “golden handshakes”

    Their are 1600 Councillors in Ireland ..this must be cut to 150 with wages related to productivity and a cap of 55K and a limit of 5K expenses per year in which all receipts must be kept.

    Any assets the State owns which is held abroad…i.e. Gold..must be returned with immediate effect.

    Any debt which was accrued by health,education,social welfare & security Departments through poor Management will be cancelled with immediate effect and a new incentive’s management procedure introduced.

    As the Country will go through a period of receivership,emergency powers will be introduced to ensure the safety and welfare of the people.These powers would elapse in three years and any major decisions shall be put to a referendum,perhaps 3 times a year during this time.

    Peoples rights will not be interfered with in any.

    The people will be invited to take active participation in the running of their County.

    The priority will always be a democratic process and a massive clear out review of how Government and its partners operate shall be conducted to see how systems of governance can be more cost effective , streamlined and linked to productivity.

    Ireland should cultivate better relations with Iceland & Norway to work and learn from them and develop this in a way to suit the three Nation’s.

    Ireland will find the best way to run itself and talk to Countries like above to find a new way forward.
    Charity begins at home so “over-sea’s aid” will be suspended during this Three year period.

    Budget Priority will be given to…

    Stocks of Food,Oil and Gas
    Security & An Gardai Siochana
    Social welfare & services

    And then the

    Natural resources
    Wind & wave power,
    organic farming
    waste reduction

    Sustainability and a return to the basic principles of same should be assisted and promoted where possible

    No state assets will be sold off,instead they will be run on a productivity initiative basis.
    Ireland is a rich Country ,poorly managed and abused by the few.This must end before we do.

    Just a thought


    The present path will lead us to some kind of dark age,new idea’s are needed

    • Adam Byrne

      Will never happen dude. None of it. Not even one item.

      • padser

        I would tend to agree!

        • redriversix

          me too !

          Ah well,off to War so……….

          peace !


          • padser

            At a very basic level – you have to remember that while we are Irish….we are also (like it or not) European, meaning: As part of the EU and being on the threshold of a Federal Europe…all notions of Nationalism are to be held in contempt of the greater (EU) plan of integration of money/resources Etc. But we have to get it into our heads that being part of the EU is not a bad thing…think about all the benefits we get (don’t think for one minute that we didn’t give anything in return though – our fishing waters during 70′s, 80′s onward were opened up for all other EU countries to pillage), our roads and infrastructure has improved Etc. and we are part of a Union that has a fundamental remit of freedom & democracy. Let the EU sort this mess out….cos they let it happen in the first place!

          • bonbon

            You mean Sir Oswald Mosley’s Unied States of Europe, turned down by 2 votes? This is a bankers wet dream.

            Look what they have done to an tire nation Greece! Have you the slightest idea what you are promoting?

    • Tony Brogan

      Hi RR6

      good thinking, don’t let the doom sayers drive you to inaction.
      First basic step not mentioned but a must to accomplish any of the above is TO LEAVE THE EURO.

      The EU is a good concept but the country must regain control of money and currency to regain Sovereignty.
      The EU trade group with individual monetary systems is the answer.

      Another beautiful day here. Take care

      • padser

        Your taking a step back in time. A single currency was the final step in creating a “barrier free trading union”. And it’s working! The mess we are in now, is a “beneficial crisis” that is inadvertently (or not) aiding the EU to accomplish an unspoken goal of a Federal Europe. The founding fathers of the EU spoke of a fiscally unified Europe.

        • bonbon

          The first reference to the United States of Europe was Sir Oswald Mosley, of British Fascist infamy. It turns out he borrowed the term from Churchill 3 months before. That is all posted here to google. Now we have Mr. Blair urging to save the Euro at any cost.

          We had 2 attempts, Hitler and his openly admitted Vorgänger (predecessor) Napoleon. Both attacked Russia. Obama today wants to attack Russia, and would like to draw Europe into this. But the real story is Mr. Blair, his advisor.

          • padser

            Oswald Mosley. History has shown us that his visions were fashionable as opposed sustainable, in an ever changing England/Europe – he moved with the populace. He wasn’t a ‘founding father’ of the EU though! His vision of a United States Europe was with the BUF! And surely a different agenda!

          • bonbon

            See PRof. Werner below the inventor of Quantitive Easing – hyperinflation. He was interviewed by the Daily Telegraph this week and lets the cat out of the bag. The Euro is the USE, and the austerity in play now is Schachtian. The agenda is the same – the removal of all traces of nation-states from the planet. It is simply imperialism.

        • Tony Brogan

          Some times one take a step backwards as one runs into a dead end.
          The current monetary system is controled by the central banks and they dominate and control governments.
          It is debt based and every note is an IOU. It is unsustainable.
          There is an international currency or money acceptable by all peoples. it is called gold. silver is its little sister. I can sell a gold or silver Maple leaf anywhere in the world for local cash and most places it is recognized as money directly and able to be used to buy goods and services.
          We do not need a Euro.
          A barrier free trading area is fine anywhere and the ultimate settlement is gold or silver. National currencies are useful for local trade only, and they should be based on the gold and silver money.

          The founding fathers of the EU were swayed by the banking monied elite dynistic families that want to control the world. First they have to destoy the nation state and create chaos that can be used to implement authoritatian government.
          Ask your pals how many directives come down from on high from a brussels bureaucrat.
          My sister farming in Devon is swamped by them. The bigger the government the molre the regulations.

          • bonbon

            The EU is not a nation, 2 attempts at a “constitution” were voted down by founding members of the EU, Netherlands, and France. Trying to force it using the financial implosion is a last resort, and doomed just like the financial system itself. In other words the EU is part of that financial system, never separate.

            The EU attempt to eradicate nation states of Europe, like Hitler and Napoleon tried, is the British Empire at work. Out trots Mr. Blair to urge the Euro rescue at any cost – a committed imperialist. But of course Britain stays out and above its satrapy’s.

            It is urgent to bring the nation-state into full activation, including Eire, to handle the collapse of a worn-out dead empire. Its falling around us. We must not let futile “rescue” attempts to depopulate the planet.
            When Rome fell, Europe practically emptied. This time Obama will go for all out war, inevitably aimed at China and Russia, a true Nero.

      • redriversix

        Hey Tony

        I have my suspicions that the Euro may be on its last legs maybe for the weaker Countries…….?
        This is a Banking crisis so Banks should be forced to pay for it,not People,Nations Governments,etc.

        good to know your in good form…

        Enjoy the rest of your day.


        • padser

          Governments let the Banks do what they wanted. Why you think no one has gone to jail?

          • redriversix

            those in charge or participating in a Ponzi scheme protect each other.

            When should we ?

          • bonbon

            The bankers, as Citigroup’s Sandy Weill said again yesterday, changed the laws to allow the mess. Repealing Glass-Steagall in 1999 was the dynamite setting an incredible bubble avalanche off. Ireland got swept into the avalanche, and has arrived at the valley.

            Time to put that law back in place to save any kind of functioning banking.

          • Tony Brogan

            The system to create the mess is the Central banking system. Debt based fiat money issuance.
            Initially controled by being attached to gold. 1971 Nixon broke the final conection to the gold and we have have all nations allowed to print unlimited amounts of paper ponzi money.
            $0 years is the average life span of paper money before collapse so the time is nigh. Bugger all to do with galss steagall. SG is a simptom of the problem not a root cause.

          • Tony Brogan

            $0 years= 40 years

          • bonbon

            Nixon broke the Bretton-Woods fixed exchange rate set in motion by FDR in 1944. That opened the door to the Inter-Alpha banking group’s derivative snowball, petrodollars etc. , now an avalanche. The next FDR law repealed was Glass-Steagall in 1999. The rest is history.

            The “ponzi explanation” is superficial, lacks real depth. Knowing these 2 laws above worked, we put them back. They are essentially American, and worked globally. Every nation adopted them willingly. Glass-Steagall means writing off the entire synthetic debt, honoring real economic debt. There has been no physical economic grouwth per capita, per hectare since Nixon’s treason. We will quickly recover that with Hamiltonian Public Credit for large projects.

          • Tony Brogan

            The fixed exchange rate and the fixed price of gold to the dollar broke itself
            First FDR had to devalue the dollar and all others on the fixed exchange ,$20.67 to $35.00 A 69% devaluation of the currencies against gold. mmarket forces prevailed.that was 1933 I think.

            1971 it was realized that the gold price in US dollars was way more than the fixed value.
            nixon abondoned the gold fix on the dollar. In 1981 the gold price hit $850 briefly. In ten years itwent up 2428%

            governments and central banks could not have their paper money looking so bad so the attacked it and the prce retreated to and average of 300-350 with a low of 280. Even that is a gain of 857%

            Today the price is $1640 which is a gain against the US dollar since 1933 of $7934% and 1971 of $4714%

            since the it takes 1640 to buy an ounce of gold today,
            and $1640 would buy 79.34 ounzes in 1933 The us dollar has lost 80% of is buying power since 1933 and
            47% since 1971.

            Never mind that paper money may collapse it already has. It is on its way to oblivion.

            So what is superficial about that bon bon.

            “”There are non so blind as those who refuse to see”
            When it comes to the gold and silver price you have seen nothing yet.

            The reciprocal of zero is infinity.
            Paper money zero
            Gold/silver infinity.
            Which is the better base for an economy.
            Protect yourself from the coming debt, credit, QE averlanche inflating inducing paper ponzi pie
            Buy gold and silver in any amounts you can afford. It will retain your buying power, protect you savings, secure your pension etc
            Sell paper cash, bonds, stocks, money market funds etc.
            I suppose you need a disclaimer. I am not giving financial advice as these opinions are for discussion purposed only. Do your own due dilligence.Seek professional advice before acting!!

          • bonbon

            “Ponzi” is superficial it does not express what has been going on. It does not clearly show the 2 types of banking and 2 types of debt. It never mention derivatives which are not “money” but are high explosive. The Inter-Alpha changed the meaning of Ponzi.

            Because of this superficial label, the path to dealing with is not made public, clear. Splitting off illegitimate debt, honoring legit debt with huge improvements in the physical economy. That means Hamiltonian Banking, also never mentioned.

            Because of this “Ponzi” lacks depth.

        • molly

          The banks can’t pay for it off there own backs it’s impossible,
          The banks can pay for it with tax payers money.
          To pay with tax payers money is defeating the whole thing.

          • bonbon

            All the taxpayers money ever could not pay off the synthetic gambling debts of the global casino since 1999 when Glass-Steagall was repealed. Any attempt to do so will destroy the economy completely.

    • Deflated

      RR6 – I am in agreement – This needs to be a mandate for the people of Ireland to pursue.

      I wish people would stop promoting negative and inactive comments as it is just pointless. Why not add to it and aid in its implementation instead of mé feinners Im looking after myself jack! This is our country, our employees are not steering it in the right direction so they must be absconded. Europe is a secondary issue, Ireland is the primary for Ireland.

      • bonbon

        So why ignore Arthur Griffith, We Ourselves, and his political-economics, all arriving at the same principles as the US’ Alexander Hamilton and Germany’s Friedrich List ?

        Our country is based on these principles.

      • redriversix

        Agreed Deflated.

        How can we contribute to Europe when we cannot help ourselves.
        This morning the Government sold a new bond at 5.9% raising 1.2 Billion even though we can raise money from E.C.B at 3%.!

        More money thrown away at the taxpayers cost and more proof that they few profit from the many while the Government hunts the World looking for love and appreciation like a insecure schoolboy……..

        Their incompetence is beyond measure.

    • molly

      Hi all things are going to get worse in ireland and Europe and at some stage things will in some way begin to improve and when this happens we will be back to the same system of doing things in this country.
      Because things have not changed and the present government do not want change,for the present government to implement change they would have to pay then selves and there croneys less in every sence of the word.
      Ireland has become a very expensive country to live in and there’s to many to well payed people leaching of the system.the government and there croneys will keep this system going because there are spoiled rottin .
      I live in the real world and it’s far removed from the world of the well payed who are being payed out of the tax pot.
      We have almost payed all the unsecured bond holders back ,out of borrowed money.
      I knew the deal we got was a crap deal ,who’s getting a much better deal now Spain .
      What ever happened to the fighting Irish or is that a mit .
      With the price of oil and everything connected to it and a government who say we won’t increse income tax while every thing to do with the cost of living is rising.
      That would not be much of a problem if you where in a well payed job like the government .
      Bring back the fighting Irish ,the time for inaction is over .

    • bonbon

      Ireland has started to cultivate links with Russia as the Arctic route opens up. China sailed its first icebreaker to Iceland last week, were quite happy with the conditions.

      The Arctic, which Canada also borders is now the place, if Oba´ma does not annihilate us all.

  17. salamander123

    If a time comes that people who have mortgages and can afford to pay them but default because the house has lost value. I will leave this country and never return. 30 year mortgage, did people honestly believe in that time period they would not struggle financially for a few of the 30 years. If its too expensive you shouldn’t of bought it. Every penny I’ve spent in rent is a Penny saved. I was told this in 2005 by a guy who worked for a German bank. Good advice obvious then and obvious now.

    • padser

      Bully for you! Go on …you know you want a mortgage, go on! go on! go on!!!!!! Aah! ya will.. ya will… ya will… ya will!!!

      Join the party…..get a five hundred euro note roll it …. and snort that negative equity up your nose like the rest of us!

      • padser

        Sorry’ I should have said….go over to Brussels and see if they have heard of a €500 note!

        Then do the right thing, engage with the rest of us ……..resistance is futile

  18. Dorothy Jones

    The ‘sub-contractor who does the titles’ got it bang on with this one!

    On the same theme NAMA wine lake writes today about 22% of mortgages in arrears/restructured:

  19. padser

    As long as we think we are a great little nation, as long as we act like one, and as long as we are told we are a great people (various endorsements HM Queen Elizabeth & Barrack Obama Etc.) then we’ll feel alright! We’ll be broke…but the generation that made such a balls of the economy…will have consoled their children with the gift of a re-imagined Ireland – far from the irresponsible ‘piss-head paddy’ international perception we once had!

    It’s not all about money!!

    • Eireannach

      Oh but it’s exactly the opposite!

      The YOUNG people of Ireland continue to get drunk in the street, fall around the place and ensure Ireland’s reputation for immaturity and drunkenness (I’m thinking of a weekend in Galway city centre for a classic example).

      Exactly nothing has changed, even after this horrifying crash! We clearly ARE just immature drunks, for now at least, and outsiders see it instantly.

      • Adam Byrne

        Piss-head Paddy is alive and well and has no intention of changing his ways.

        • padser

          We championed the ‘Smoking Ban’….we may yet do something similar for alcohol – for starter’s how about the abolition of sales in ordinary shops & supermarkets! Then how about lowering the alcohol percentage rate per pint/bottle, Etc.

          • padser

            Actually what about the closure of off-licences as well are they not promoting cheaper alcohol?

          • 33square

            how about banning alcohol and legalising cannabis?
            now that would make some money: less fighting, less spousal abuse… might increase obesity though

        • Tony Brogan

          No other people of the world debate whether they are piss head drunks and lay about thick heads.

          This is an image fostered over the centuries by those who sought to destroy the Irish. In the Book Westward Ho! by Kingsley, of the “Water Babies” fame, He descibes the Irish as bestual, animal like figures hidden and shadowy figures in the bushes and hedgerows.

          When the Irish tell a joke it is self deprecating. When the English tell a joke it ridicules someone else other than themselves.

          The two cultures do not mix well. I was raise in an English environment and fought this bigotry at every step. Right from my early school days at 5 years of age in an english school through to the knowledge that my father was refused a promotion because it was let slip he was raised as Irish Catholic.

          Cut out all this talk of deprication and defeat. Look at the talents and achievements dispite the odds stacked against and rejoice in your god given gifts.

          Get rid of Negativity and Embrace the positive. It is the only way out of the delemma one faces. It is time to stand up for oneself individually and nationally.

          Turn this blog to the power of positive thinking. Get David MW to publish the suggestions and solutions to turn the national debate positive instead of a litany of publications observing the occurance of the next catastrophe and the predictable responses of self immolation by the readers.

          “What the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve”.
          Napoleon Hill–Think and grow Rich.

          • bonbon

            Interesting post indeed. Is that the Kingsley, of Queens Victoria’s diaries? I know what he said.

            You are right about the Empire hangover, I get a headache listening to the moaning.

            Some use that thugish attack on the Irish to promote the current administrations policies. A vicious internecine subservience – you can hear the knuckledusters ringing as they scrape the sidewalk. This is exactly the character that opposed Arthur Griffith’s sovereignty.

            Still, Enda made a very interesting speech at Collins’ memorial, totally unexpected. We will see if there is a change. DMcW is right about a huge problem looming soon.

            Remember Sandy Weill – a 180degree about turn. Be ready for this.

          • padser

            Good & sad story Tony…..I too have English background only insofar as being born there, but raised in Ireland of Irish parents. Having returned to work there back in the 80′s in London. I found most of the people to be quite nice, especially the older generation, whose first hand experience of war-time seemed to make them a very knowledgeable and grateful people. That said and you are correct, there is an element of pomposity from the higher classes and an ignorance from the lower class….but directed at anyone not British or more specifically English!
            It seems to me to be a very innate thing for the Brits to denigrate another human being – even among-st themselves. Have you seen that “Go Compare” advert on TV, where that Footballer (Stuart Pearse aka “Physco”) kicks a ball at the guy who sings about insurance in the stomach causing him to fall over on the ground! GBH followed by a fist punch of delight into the air! Wha de fu is dha al abouh?
            Reality is though our ties with England go way too far back – for good & bad!!

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi Padser

            Strange thing is we are all one people.
            Galicia is a space on the Polish Ukrane border.
            Galicia is a semi autonimous province in NW Spain.
            both past homes of the Gaels.
            From Iberia came the Milsian invasion of Island. The sons of Mil Espaine and Scota, a Phareohs daughter. The sons of Scotia, the Scots held Ireland and still do. The 5-7 th century Monks took the name to North Britain whaere it held and was lost in Ireland.

            The decendants of Goidal Glas, were the people of Brigantia and built the tower of Brigantia in or close to modern A Coruna.
            Later rebuilt by the romans as the tower of Hercules. It is to day rebuilt again and is the longest serving continuous lighthouse in the world.

            The People of Brigantia sent others into pre-Briton where they evolved as the Brigantees of Northern Briton.

            The closest Europeans relations today to the Irish are alleged to be the Basgues of the North of Spain. Can’t tell them apart from a Kerry man in a pub!

            King Breoghan was the grandfather of Milesius and there is a statue of him today in A Coruna.
            There is in Madrid an avenue called after king Breoghan.
            The ‘National Anthem’ of Galicia is and ode to the land of Breoghan.
            Google shows many people in the A Coruna area named Breoghan.

            I will visit there soon and say howdy to an ancestor!

            One never knows who ones family is. It behoves one to be respectful to all people!!! So the ties to England as you put it go back at least 3500 years!!

          • bonbon

            Basque is not an Indo-European language like Godelic (from which Gailge comes from). Komi, Finnish, Hungarian are also not Indo-European. Columbus’s pilots were all Basque because they knew the American coast, which is littered with Consaine Ogham (no vowels). Caesar described the Celtic (Cornish, Irish) boats at the battle of Quimper as capable of crossing the great sea, the Atlantic. Brendan crossed is a currach. Columbus named an island on his Toscanelli map after Brendan.

            Now take the Takhelne of the Fraser River area, the best record of spoken Godelic, all noted by missionaries. Reading their poems and stories, you would think they came from Kerry. There is much more, that is somehow missing from the Oxford and Cambridge romanticism.

          • Tony Brogan

            Basques were shown by DNA test to be the closest relatives. RTE TV program 2 years ago or so.
            Maybe the Iberian gaels adopted the Basque language

        • Dorothy Jones

          I met an old friend in a hotel lounge in Ashbourne yesterday for a coffee. At 4 o’ clock in the afternoon there were people in the bar ith their children . Kids were given crisps and coke, adults drank pints and didn’t engage with the kids at all….and was a really beautiful day.

          But then in contrast….

          At the Tall Ships today; there was a young couple with three small children. They wsat on a bench in the midst of all the food and drink stalls with their home-made sandwiches and flasks of tea. The look in the childrens’ faces was one of real happiness; perhaps a happy memory they will have forever.

          You can sometime physically feel your heart break.

      • gizzy

        Silly generalisation I have a 24 year old and a 21 yearold who do not drink. One is in America and says the yound Americans are worse for drink. And the old what do the outsiders think.

        • Adam Byrne

          There is some truth in what you say gizzy. I was in the States recently and could not believe all the young barmaids ‘doing shots’. Their boss even told them they could only do them ‘after midnight’ so they wouldn’t be too pissed before closing at 2am. Over here you’d be fired. There is a still a massive problem in Ireland though that cannot be ignored through faulty comparison with other countries.

          • redriversix

            Hey Adam..Trivia

            “Jack Daniels” is made in Lynchburg,Tennessee.

            The sale of Alcohol is prohibited in Lynchburg for the last 100 years.

            I spent 25 years in the Licensed trade in Dublin and I have no idea how to curb “our” enthusiasm for drinking to get drunk.apart from banning below cost selling in supermarket’s..

            Education..? stricter penalties for breaking licensing laws.?

            RR6 [ 11 years drink-free ! ]

        • Eireannach

          “Silly generalization’? We’re known the world over for it!

          Your kids are the exceptions which prove the rule. We’re known the world over for it. Is the rest of the world wrong? I trust the opinion of the rest of the world over an Irish guy with a vested interest in deluding himself – Lord knows we have enough of those already. That DMcW has to actually point out that mass default is now inevitable is an indication of how deluded the country is. It should’ve been obvious to everybody THE VERY SAME EVENING they borrowed these vast sums of money for houses.

          But it wasn’t. Because the masses of the Irish were delusional, and indeed still are.

      • padser

        Sorry’ I was speaking future/ (hypothetical)retrospective tense.
        And ‘piss-head paddy’ is not an all encompassing perception of the Irish internationally….how about ‘the thick paddies’ the mostly English description of the Irish. In centuries past, Evolution Academics described Medieval (and beyond) Ireland as being ‘tribal’ – and thus’ at that time – meaning socially & politically underdeveloped!
        (Indeed at the present time, it would appear most European countries would appear ‘tribal’ – with the notion of becoming ‘Supranational’ in an EU context)
        Let’s just say that if you are a ‘thicko’ – you are capable of doing stupid and irresponsible things – like ‘drinking yourself into oblivion’.

  20. KD

    Great article as usual, and my personal empirical observations suggest, unfortunately, that you will be proved correct. But isn’t this exactly what Morgan Kelly said circa 15 months ago.

  21. wills


    House prices are overly priced, STILL.

    This economy is rigged.

    House prices are rigged.

    NAMA took over the rigging of the property market from the collapsed banking pOnzi bubble.

    The economy is crying out for the return of sanity to property prices and the reutrn to the Shiller mean index price estimated over a 100 years which would return the price of a average house back on course at 100,000 euros.

    Until this happens we are all playing fantasy economics.

  22. Philip

    David, you reference history to show the inevitability of busts and so on. Now to anyone, has there ever been in history a story of mass default that led to stability very shortly afterwards.

    Default means you cannot pay for whatever reason and it always means a loss of your assets. You do not get to stay the way you were before the default.

    So, let’s have it. What are the nuts and bolts of recovery of post bust Ireland from the viewpoint of a typical family of 2 adults, 2 kids, a 300K mortage and 1 part time job?

  23. Tony Brogan

    Well David thanks for pointing out the obvious.
    While there are suggestions of the problems what of the solutions.
    Why are you not more direct. State the obvious solution right after the factual problem. you are too cute. Meanwhile there is no suggestion for the individual survival while all this unravels in Ireland and around the world.

    Fiat currencies are in collapse mode and will fall in value more quickly as TPTB ramp up QE to Infinity.
    Own money not based on Fiat. gold and silver coin in hand , in your physical possession. nothing paper. Not stocks, bonds, fiat money, or bank accounts. All are going down.

    The EU’s Stability and Growth Pact then compounds the problem
    Remove the EU Stability and growth pact. Revoke the agreement as ODIOUS DEBT IMPOSED ON THE SOVEREIGN PEOPLE.

    Eurozone nations lack a sovereign currency and have great difficulty following the counter-cyclical fiscal policies that would allow a faster recovery from the recession
    Leaved the EURO and embrace a national currency

    What caused the internation financial problem?
    The international credit based central banking system coupled with the commercial fractional reserve banking system.
    Remove and close the central banks and ban fractional reserve banking. This rids us of the usurous credit based banking system.

    If you agree with this , David, you will remain silent on the subject. If you disagree I would like to know why and what your solutions are.

    • padser

      Nice one!
      David McWilliams “Broadcaster”: Hey come & look at my website!

      David McWilliams “Economist”: I’ll tell you something we know already!

      David McWilliams “Author”: Solutions?… Read the book!

      • bonbon

        Solutions are not a matter of taste. Solutions are truthful, not radical jingoism. President Michael D has identified the problem since his very forst elect day on RTE. He clearly identified the repeal of Glass-Steagall as being the trigger. Now Citigroup’s chief, Sandy Weill, the Shatterer of Glass-Steagall, will draft the legislation to re-instate it!

        Glass-Steagall is the Franklin Roosevelt law of 1933 splitting the 1929 crash banking before you were born. It was removed in 1999. We have had hell since. Putting it back is the first essential step to any solution.

        So now you know what must be done. DMcW does not censor it.

        • cooldude

          The introduction of GS by FDR in 1933 did not do anything to solve the great depression which got progressively worse until the outbreak of the second world war. The real cause of the great depression and our current soon to be greater depression is the debt based central bank currency system. There is no need for any sovereign nation to pay interest to private bankers for the issue of their currency. They can simply disband these private institutions and issue the currency through treasury and interest free. This is the only way to break the stranglehold these banksters have over what is deemed to be money. Don’t forget under our present system they have the power to issue currency at zero cost to themselves and loan it to governments at interest. In addition to this we need to allow different types of money to circulate and let the people decide which type they want to use to pay for goods and services and to save with. This is the way to take away the banksters franchise over what we use as money. Regulation of the existing system is a complete waste of time. Here are the 11 steps to banker’s hell if we continue on our present path

          • Tony Brogan

            could not have written the attachment better myself!!
            Your comments are spot on

          • bonbon

            FDR does get the Austrian School to make very strange statements. By 1936, the US economy was recovering, when it became crystal clear war was inevitable. That economy defeated the Nazi’s. The sheer scale of logistics and production, which German Generals fully realized by 1942 (!) could not be stopped. So first FDR stopped the Depression which austerity created after 1929. Secondly the full use of Alexander Hamilton’s Public Credit banking, the RFC and TVA, drove Wall Street to an attempted coup, whistleblown by General Smedley Butler when they tried to hire him to march on Washington. The very same Wall Street supporting Hitler, using Prescot Bush from Brown Brothers Harriman.

            So the clear evidence of the superiority of US National Banking over private financial interests is historical and a model for us now. We have Arthur Griffith, who wrote extensively on National Banking and polical-economy.

            Ireland is founded on this principle.

          • bonbon

            The US Constitution, with the Credit Clause defining the role of the Treasury is in place since Alexander Hamilton wrote it. This overrides private bankers such as Wall Street. The British Empire’s Wall Street are not amused at this and have sabotaged, assassinated, torpedoed repeatedly. You have no idea of how dangerous this is. You speak as if it is all theater, coining silver fables for the bedazzled.

            If the British Empire are not unhappy about silver there is only 1 possible reason – it’s their’s !!!

        • padser

          Maybe Michael D should have been President back in 1999 he could have then foresaw what was imminent and done something about it then. Nevertheless he was still a very prominent & influential figure in Irish society at that time. Regardless of his assertion of the trigger-mechanism that of Glass-Steagall….what about the blatant ignorance of the Basel Accords(I)(II) the International body based in Switzerland that make recommendations as to how Banks should operate….maybe for a while all politicians thought of it, as the “Bullshit Accord” (including Michael D)

          Also’ repeal leading to “trigger” is the wrong term. The repeal was complicit with everyone who ought to know what would happen…big trigger..big gun….large amounts of politicians pulling it …..big smoke!!

          • bonbon

            Glass-Steagall is the key. Alan Greenspan, Sandy Weill, FT, numerous following all said the alternatives cannot and do not work. They are insiders not commentators. Remember the bank “stress tests” – all passed. I wonder why? In 1933 the Pecora Commission identified for the public the exact causes of 1929, and split off insurance and investment from commercial activities. Sandy Weill, posted here, who personally lobbied in D.C. along with Sir Alan, says exactly how they operated.
            Today the pressure of the TBTF threat brings politicians and voters into calm subservience.

    • bonbon

      DMcW has responded to your solution. It is the solution proposed by one group. It is radical. It is Ron Paul’s theme too. The other side of that coin is Paul Ryan.

      You must realize the attack on the nation itself, a national banking with Public Credit disturbs modern people.

      • Tony Brogan

        I just do not follow what you are trying to say.
        Again you leave need shaking my head going what the f does he mean.

    • Deflated

      Tony, I think its time to draught a petition and get it out there. Can people help. We need action and we need to start NOW.

      • Tony Brogan

        One thing I have worked on a bit is a policy to introduce silver coin as legal tender. EEU law will not allow precious metals to circulate. But I say stuff it and leave the Euro, adopt a national currency, by which I mean an Irish one not another country(If you were going to adopt anothers currency one could do worse than the canadian, then all those millions of silver Maple leaf coins are available for the following plan.)

        Here is a policy proposal you can use for an Irish one ounce silver coin, or any other one ounce silver coin if you wish as long as the silver content is correct.
        Proposal for the policy for the Government of Ireland

        Utilizing the Treasury, The Irish Mint, and An Post

        The introduction of Sound Money to circulate alongside Irish Bank Notes

        Some bullion coins are already currency. They do not circulate because the designated trade value is way below the market value and so they are hoarded. Imagine what would happen if the government decided to use silver coin for money and implemented a policy such as this.

        We would provide The Irish a reason to save by giving them something of Value to save

        Silver coins as money will be allowed to circulate alongside EURO/Irish fiat bank notes.

        The following policy will be implemented irrevocably (unless changed by public referendum)

        A one ounce silver coin will be issued a monetary value according to its silver content.

        The one ounce silver coin .9999 pure contains one troy ounce of silver and will be issued a monetary value guaranteed to be 20% higher than the world spot price at the Friday close each week. While this monetary value will rise according to the world market spot price for a troy ounce of silver it will NEVER fall. This adjustment in the price will be done on the Sat night/Sunday AM time slot.

        For example, this is the mechanism for the calculations.

        Today Sat 4th Dec 2011 we imagine as the date of implementation.

        The Spot price of silver is in Euros E24.27. Plus a markup of 20% or E4.85 = E29.12.

        There is one other calculation required. To make a simpler calculation to avoid irritating small adjustments we need a number divisible by 5.

        The E29.12 is then rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5 which is E30. All one pure ounce Silver coins will now circulate for monetary purposes at the designated monetary value regardless of the printed amount on the coin.

        Should the spot price of silver rise to a price higher than 80% of the monetary value, such monetary value will be adjusted the following weekend by a multiple of 5 until again the monetary value exceeds the spot by 20%.

        Say the spot price rises to 24.50. Plus it by 20% = 29.40. Raise it to the nearest multiple of 5 = 30, so there is no change in the monetary value as suggested in the calculation above.

        If the spot price increases to 25.50 we calculate the new monetary value as follows. Plus the spot price by 20% = 30.60. Rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5 = 40.00 as monetary value, for an increase of E5.

        If there is a slump in the price of silver and it drops in the spot price to E20.00. Plus by 20% = E24.00. That is a lower price than the high of E40.00 so the monetary value is unchanged and remains at E40.00.

        Why do we have this policy of the mark up to at least 20%?

        In order for silver bullion coins to remain in circulation and to not be melted down to bullion it is essential that the monetary value be always higher than the bullion melt price or the spot price.

        There are costs associated with obtaining silver.

        It is possible that governments or government mints can obtain silver at spot price but the price could be higher.

        There is a cost to the mint of producing the coin, minting and distribution. Say 10%

        Any overage is sovereignty to the government that allows the government to accumulate bullion as a reserve.

        As these reserves accumulate it adds strength to the value of all Irish currency and the Irish economy.

        At a suitable time treasury notes or certificates can be issued as representing ounces of silver only, with no printed value. They would also circulate with a monetary value similar to the coin. i.e. A Ten ounce note would have a monetary value of E400.00. This note would be backed by silver one ounce coins but it MUST remain 100% backed by silver. The issuance of notes would not commence until the public were accustomed to pricing goods in ounces of silver and there was a public demand for the issuance of such notes. The Irish Government would be cautious in this policy in order not to replace one set of irredeemable notes (current fiat currency notes) with another set of irredeemable notes. It is worth repeating that ANY NOTES ISSUED BY TREASURY MUST BE 100% BACKED BY PHYSICAL SILVER AND THAT FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING OF ANY KIND RELATING TO SILVER OR THE NOTES WOULD BE OUTLAWED.

        All people in the world would be confident that the monetary value of a silver coin would never drop. Whereas, silver bullion would fluctuate in value depending on the world spot price, as happens at present.

        For Irish citizens the preferred method of saving would be in legal tender coins which could only go up in monetary value and not down.

        Banks would be able to store, in vaults, any amount of silver coin on behalf of customers. Such “deposits” would be custody accounts secured by the bank but would not be the property of the bank. (Currently, cash deposits, that pay interest, become the property of the bank and the bank is able to lend that money with no permission from the depositor.) It is foreseen that the bank would/could offer services to the depositor for which they could charge.

        An electronic bank account could allow a depositor to use the “Money” in the bank to pay for goods and services by debit card as is currently done. As the trade flows back and forth an accounting is kept and the settlement made in specie according to the records. The depositor could claim back from the vault up to as much coin as his account now says he owns.

        Banks could, of course, buy their own coins to be held on their own account, which they could make available for sale to the public.

        The silver coin deposited in a bank or owned by the bank cannot be loaned out in any proportion (no fractional reserve banking) and at all times the amount outstanding to the customer is 100% backed by the coin on deposit. If the customer opts to accept fiat bank notes from the bank to replace the silver the customer no longer owns the bullion which it has effectively sold to the bank.

        An Post

        It is suggested that the Government of Ireland form its own commercial bank to facilitate the distribution of Silver coins in the widest dissemination. It is further suggested that the Irish Postal Service, An Post, be utilized for this purpose. It is already in place in every town and has a courier service component operating.

        Irish Mint

        At a time when the world spot price of silver drops any appreciable amount it is also the time that the seigniorage to the government is greatly increased and so it is an opportunity for the government to buy bullion to issue in to coin at the much higher monetary value or at a later date at a still higher value. However, at no time can anyone demand the mint buy bullion from them. The mint will be instructed to coin silver money to meet demand but it will be the prerogative of the bank to decide when and where the bullion is obtained and how much is paid. The Irish mint will provide the same guaranty of weight and quality of the coins as at present .There will be no taxes on monetary coin.

        It is recognized that a .9999 pure silver coin is not the most durable as its softness causes wear and tear. It is further recognized that sterling coin of 92.5% pure with the balance alloyed with copper provides a much harder more durable coin. It is proposed that at a future time consideration be given to production of sterling silver coins but still containing the full one ounce of silver as has the current one ounce silver coin.

        As we expect the silver coin to be used initially as a vehicle of savings it is not expected that the one ounce silver coin will go into immediate circulation to any large degree. At some point the coins will start to be useful for circulation and trade and that would be the time to provide sterling coins as demanded by the people.

        Quoted from Alasdair MacLeod —

        Speech given to the Committee for Monetary Research and Education

        At the Fall Meeting, 20th October 2011.

        “Please just accept, even if you don’t follow my analysis, that sound money guarantees a stable yet progressive economy where people are truly equal. It allows people to save properly for their retirement so that they will not become a burden on the state. It leads to democracy voting for small governments. It encourages peaceful trade and discourages war. It is the only path, after this mess, that leads us to long-lasting and peaceful prosperity. We really need everyone to understand this for the sake of our future.”

        Quote from Detlev Schlitchter in Paper Money Collapse, bottom p157-top p.158

        “In terms of the predictability of price trends, the moderate inflation officially targeted in paper money systems today has no advantages over the moderate secular deflation in a commodity money system. But in all other respects, and in sharp contrast to generally held beliefs today, secular deflation has many advantages. In a commodity money system, the monetary asset is likely to provide a small steady return through the on-trend decline in prices, which allows those without investment expertise (or the means to purchase investment advice) to save through cash holdings. On the other hand, the constant injection of new money in a paper money system has to lead to the distortions of interest rates and to the misallocations of capital that we analyzed earlier and that will progressively unbalance the overall economy.”

        From the bill to monetize the MEXICAN Libertad coin as put before the Mexican Congress (2011)

        “In order to palliate the financial crisis and the economic recession, central banks and governments have reacted by injecting more liquidity and credit; these actions have intensified the causes that provoked the instability, further weakened the whole system, caused a world crisis of deficits and sovereign debt and further increased penury and scarcity in the majority of the population.

        These “rescues” and emergency repairs have succeeded in prolonging for some additional months the life of the financial system, but they will cause its collapse to be much more dramatic and painful. The International Monetary Fund has itself warned that “the risk of a double recession has increased” (IMF Report, June 1, 2010).

        For families, the inflationary rise in prices, the evaporation of savings and the loss of purchasing power are causing a distressing situation of tightness and anxiety which are depressing and negative for interpersonal relations, as well as setting up a vicious circle of want and scarcity.

        The ultimate origin of the financial and economic problems of today dates to August 1971 when real money — backed by precious metal — was substituted by fictitious money, which can be issued exorbitantly because it consists of nothing other than paper and computer digits.

        By HUGO SALINAS PRICE in Dorothy’s Silver Shoes delivered at the London GATA conference, London Eng. Aug 6th 2011

        “The restoration of the silver currency of the United States of America (Ireland) by the very simple procedure outlined here can provide the life-saving alternative. There is, at present, no practical proposal for a viable action in the field of money. Perhaps there can be no other practical proposal? Perhaps a return to silver money is the only path out of the present crisis of civilization?

        Let us hope that a political leader in the United States (Ireland) understands this message. The popular appeal of silver is universal; “silver shoes” will take that leader far- and the American (Irish) people will follow him on that road!”

        Just substitute the US references and replace the country of your choice. (inserted)

        My gratitude to Hugo Salinas Price, President, Mexican Civic Association Pro Silver, for his patience in reviewing this presentation which has been largely inspired by his writings and those who contribute to

        Éirinn go brách

        • Tony Brogan

          There is an error of math
          Where I have used E40 it should be E35

        • padser

          Having read the main points of your arguments…am a little baffled by your equations – I will bow to your superior knowledge and assume it to be correct. However
          fundamentally speaking, is money not just an “acknowledgement of effort”? Be it physical tenure or notional? Paper / Digital / or Metal?
          There are the obvious cumbersome elements, of metal tenure and didn’t they stop gold and silver coins because of “Chinking”. And furthermore’ we only see gold/silver as a valuable metal…because were told its valuable (it’s rare or somptin).
          I mean’ the federal reserve in USA, may have nothing in it’s vaults…and I’ve never physically seen it myself, but I assume it’s there! What happens if the Klondike starts spewing out tonnes of gold?

          • Tony Brogan

            It’s a proposal not an argument.
            money is a medium of exchange. It is not used up or destroyed on the process of facilitating the transaction.
            money needs to be portable. A large vaule in a small volume.
            money needs to be divisable. The two halves are exactly = to the whole.
            Money must be fungible. Each unit of the exact same value wherever you are and acceptable to all people
            Money is a storage of wealth and reflects to value of past endevours.
            money should be relatively rare and not easily added to.

            Gold and silver uniquely fit the bill. chosen by most people in the past it will be again in the near future.

            If the Klondike spews out gold again it will be a fraction of the 180,000 tonnes in existence and of mininmal affect to inflation.

            So far gold and silver are the best money available to us.

            As far as ‘chinking’. you still carry loose change now and most transactions will still be done using debit cards against the money held on account at a local bank.

      • Tony Brogan

        A petition on what for what.
        no doubt the politicos need a boot in the arse.

        • Tony Brogan

          May be I’ll answer my own question.
          On the question of Odious debt being dumped. International law supports that and there are people working on that with a legal challenge. I have not the details here.

      • bonbon

        So now we are told metal will solve problems. Any comment on this proposal? Do you believe it will work?

        • Tony Brogan

          Well sure as god made little green apples printing up barrow loads of paper will only add to the problem.Qe to infinity is on its way resulting in the destruction of savings, pensions, and capital.

          Metal does not depreciate to zero like paper. In zimbabwe a gram of gold was survival. The only way to buy food. all paper currency dismissed by the perveyors of the food.

          Pan for gold or die. Of course metal works. It has intrisic value. What will you say when silver is up by 50%. I know what I will say. It is showing the destruction of your paper money.

          You went to the wrong school and got brain washed. I was lucky I rejected school as a waste of time. Gave me time to read and think even if a lot of my life was manual shovel work and using a pitch fork. Repeptitive physical work leaves the brain free to wonder about things.

          I wondered why the economy did not work. Why all the commentary seemed contradictory.
          I got lucky. I came to understand what money is, why it works. what is poor money and what is good money.

          And I did not go to any Austrian or other school to come to an understanding. So go stick a label on yourself and stand in the corner until you figure it out. Then we will have a coffee together and talk about a few things. I will be in Ireland in October. anywhere you want me to be. Bike or transit will get me there or a combo of the two.

          I found out who pulls the strings and why and what can happen to those who do not comply.

          What these manipulators do to the people and their reasons. . .

          Most people do not want to hear. too busy, to well off, can’t stand to change their paradyme.

          Still I have hope for you bon bon because your heart is in the right place and you are bright enough and interested enough to learn.

          I will not agree to be silent when I see misinformation given out to the searchers that confuses and misdirects them.

          So am I arrogant and ilinformed. I hope not and until proven otherwise I believe I am on the right path.
          THe Yellow Brick Road with Dorothy and her silver slippers tearing the screen down to expose the pathetic wizard who can not stand the light of day.
          The Tin Man and the Straw man are with me.

          • bonbon

            Let people read what the Austrian School has to say. Let them then as good thinking citizens go to the underlying thesis, the guiding principle and the raison d’etre of that School.

            Very quickly it is apparent that actually there is no theory of economics at all, more a psychological one, as von Hayek himself clearly said at the London School of Economics.

        • Tony Brogan

          Ask Hugo Salinas Price.

          his influence has suceeded in getting a bill in front of the Mexican congress. Majority or more are in favour of monetizing the one ounce Libertad.

          Who objects? Why the Mexican central bank of course. They know they will be soon after out of business. the people will decide.

          What would you rather put under your mattress. a silver coin appreciating in value protecting you from inflation warranted by the state to never drop in value but can only go up. Or a piece of paper that one day will be only good for fleeting warmth in a fire or to paper the cracks in the wall.

          Paper money is failing once again like it always has.

        • bonbon

          Still no comment from others? Have a look at this interview at the Austrian School website :

          Billionaire Salinas thinks he has it solved.

          • Tony Brogan

            Excellent post.
            The silver coin will be issued along side or in parallel to the fiat paper notes. The choice will be up to the people to decide what they think is the best money to save. It is believed that the people will chose silver coin over paper for the reasons already expressed.
            Savings are the building block of a sound economy.

          • bonbon

            Reading it amazes me that Nixon is never mentioned. He broke the Bretton-Woods Agreement, opening the door to floating exchange. If Mexico thinks it can go it alone without a fundamental change in D.C, it is a swindle.

            The US must adopt fixed exchange, split banking, but much more importantly for Mexico, the PHLINO must be immediately started. This is the litmus test for any “reforms”.
            PHLINO – The North West Hydraulic Plan to link into the NAWAPA, North American Water and Power Alliance.

          • bonbon

            I would like to hear Salinas on PHLINO. There must be an interview somewhere.

      • bonbon

        Following silver shoes? What is that all about?
        The only person I know who actually wore silver shoes, photographed by Scottish press descending from a helicopter in the immaculate gardens of the Rothschild manor, was Schwarzenegger. In that manor it was decided he would become governor of California.

        I am simply amazed at the Austrian School’s proposal.

        Following silver shoes – I wonder do they have silver spurs? Reminds me of a comic I saw somewhere.

        • cooldude

          The Wizard of Oz was actually a tale about the abandonment of the gold standard. Dorothy’s gold slippers was just an allegory for a return to a sound money standard. Hugo Salinas Price has replaced the word gold with silver because silver was the ordinary person’s money and the banksters don’t have any of it anymore. Actually silver scares them shitless especially JPM who have a massive short position on silver from which they are having huge difficulty extracting themselves. Silver is the achilles heel of the fiat ponzi scheme and the coming explosion in the price of physical silver will be a reflection of the collapse of this latest experiment in unbacked paper money. This should be no surprise to anyone with any knowledge of monetary history as these type of systems always end up like this one with monetization of the excessive debts and eventually hyperinflation of the currency. We are not quite there yet but the next round of currency creation, which is coming very shortly, will take us a step closer to this inevitable end to our present system of currencies. The only protection on an individual level is hard assets such as silver which hold their purchasing power through a currency crisis which now seems inevitable.

          • bonbon

            I seriously do not believe that anything less than the full power of the nation-state applied to Wall Street scares them the slightest. To have one of their very own, Sand Weill come out fighting for Glass-Steagall brings back their only nightmare – FDR’s devastating reform in 1933. Even a billionaire like Salinas cannot do that, never mind Romney or Paul. Now if they got elected they could overnight fix this financial system using the full Constitutional power of the Credit Clause. If they do not avail of this legal, tested wel understood method, they should be impeached as Obama must be.

          • Tony Brogan

            bon bon

            You can be assured that the central bankers are more afraid of gold and silver than anything else in the universe.

            Having one of their own such as Sandy Weil promote GS is fine for the banks as it will change little for the bankers. We are being duped into thinking it supplies a realistic solution. It doesn’t.

          • bonbon

            The nation-state, under attack from all angles, including the Austrian School, when activated is Wall Street’s nightmare. They know that. They spend a fortune to ensure it is not activated.

            Looking at Sandy Weill’s own discussion on the reasoning in 1999 and today, shows how it works. It does not fit within the monetary narrative, but reality never does.

  24. An experiment in Bloody Nose economics, I wonder what the reaction would be if everyone went and took out as much as they could from the ATM tomorrow. Not to spend it. Just tuck it into the sox n jox drawer. You still have it but since all the big bank cover up scams are done over the weekend, you could always put it back in on Monday because most folk would have to. Be interesting to see the banks reaction. After all, it is your money and there is nothing odd about wanting your money on demand. At least that’s what’s written on banknotes.
    The bluffing has to be called somehow before David’s prophecies become an inevitable Armageddon.

    • padser

      Fact is…all the money people have in the Bank could not physically be taken out of the Bank cos it’s not actually there…probably less than ten percent of physical cash is in the Banks at any one time!

      • Dorothy Jones

        That’s actually right. No money in the German banks neither. It’s not really clear where the gold reserves of the Bundesbank are. That’s why the banks are loosening up their lending criteria re property investments. A ruse.

        • Tony Brogan

          GATA has documented over the last 12 years and accumulated evidence that numerous gold swaps took place between countries. This involved the leasing of gold to “bullion banks” who sold the gold on the open market to drive the price down and then invested the cash to buy US treasuries to boost the value of the US dollar. The so called strong dollar policy.
          Net result is that of the 32,000 tonnes of gold allegedly owned by the western central banks it is calculated that about 1500 tonnes per annum weas sold for a shortfall of 15000 tonnes total.
          All audits have been deneyed so nobdy knows for sure.
          As possession is 9 tenths of the law a number of countries are unlikely to recover any gold stored in the US or London.

          Other countries have been accumulating gold and even western central banks have been b uying over the last 18 months.

          Gold is the money of rulers and he who has the gold rules. Economic power is rapidly moving from west to east along with the gold.

          The petro dollar is on its last legs. This is why the recent middle east wars have happened. All invaded countries had traded oil or threatened to trade oil in other than US dollars.

          The line in the sand is drawn in front of Syria. Is it WWIII or will someone blink first.
          Too late for the US the gold is already headed east.

          • bonbon

            “Gold is the money of rulers and he who has the gold rules”.

            Strange formulation. If your neighbor has a gold rolex, he rules because you have a Swatch?

            Sounds like something from Babylon.

          • bonbon

            Apparently rumors circulate that the Bundesbank “lost” its gold. Very strange.

            On QE I post here an interview with the inventor, Prof. Werner. See what he says to the DT!

          • Tony Brogan

            Not a strange formulation but a fact of life when talking of gold as wealth and money.
            your celtic ancetors wore gold amulets and carried wealth and money with them

            a gold watch as such is trinket with little value of gold itself. mere bluster.

            Research re gold swaps and gold leasing.
            Also archives of

            It is possible the US has lost their gold too, so look for them to steal what is at hand. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

          • bonbon

            The British Romantic reference to Celts is simply that pure fiction. We have come quite a long way from this :

            The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, writing in the 1st century BCE, described how Celtic warriors “cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses.” Strabo meanwhile commented in the same century that until the Roman authorities put a stop to it, amongst the Celts, “the heads of enemies held in high repute they used to embalm in cedar oil and exhibit to strangers.” Archaeological evidence indicating that the Celts did indeed behead humans and then display their heads, possibly for religious purposes, has been unearthed at a number of excavations; one notable example of this was found at the Gaulish site of Entremont near to Aix-en-Provence, where a fragment of a pillar carved with images of skulls was found, within which were niches where actual human skulls were kept, nailed into position, fifteen examples of which were found.
            A monetary system based on “thousands of years of gold” brings us back to those “glorious days”.

    • bonbon

      Economists do not and should not “prophesize” – that’s the oldest bankers trick to short, shaft everyone.

      Forecasting involves the mind, which actually rules the economics, no matter what the bankers tell you. Thus it must be going through the minds of many in power.

      So a forecast means, and should include the radical change of direction to avoid that trend. Radical turn up, as expected then, to divert from that change, ensuring the trend accelerates.

      A radical change in banking, called for by THE banker himself, and FT, and many others now is a result of a forecast.

      Forecasting, if truthful, is creative reason per se. People, no matter what they say publicly, are of the mind, and as we head into sheer catastrophe, will repudiate any violation of reason. So it better be truthful!

  25. Halo Effect

    “wiping up fear”

    The Irish Independent sales tactic and some here too…

    Michael D spells out clear to the tea party but it apply all to often to Ireland media too….

    • bonbon

      Here is a link to the President-elect speech (if RTE have not removed it.

      Your link is very interesting, Michael D fighting fit as the Irish must be defending the very basis of the nation, whether US or Eire. Wonderfull!!!

      Unfortunately Michael D. is wrong about Obama, but totally right about everything else. He is very concerned about the General Welfare. Obama is not FDR, he is destroying the Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, without waiting for the Tea Party. The deception of Obama is only exceeded by his campaign advisor “peacemaker” Mr. Blair.

  26. bonbon

    Austerity never worked, from Brüning, to Schacht the BIS (Bank of International Settlements, Basel) banker himself and finance minister to Hitler.
    Now today, we have this :

    Inventor of ‘Quantitative Easing’ Urges Adoption of Schacht’s Recipe To Save the Euro

    Aug. 22, 2012 (EIRNS) – Richard Werner, a German-born economist at the University of Southampton, called for a genuine Schachtian plan to save the euro, in an interview with the Aug. 16 {Daily Telegraph}. Werner is credited for having invented the term “quantitative easing” in 1994, in proposing a money-expansion policy to Japan.

    Reporting on Werner’s proposal, James Hurley wrote in the {Telegraph}: “Hitler’s central banker, Dr. Hjalmar Schacht, knew how to deal with a Great Depression, Prof. Werner tells us. He argues it’s about time we revived his sage economic ideas now.

    “Firstly, the plan involves the European Central Bank buying the banking system’s bad assets at face value, which Prof. Werner says would not cost taxpayers or cause inflation.

    “Next – and here’s Dr. Schacht’s 1930s magic — the Spanish government and others should stop selling pricey government bonds entirely.

    “Instead, they should fund themselves through loan contracts from banks in their countries, which Prof. Werner says would result in cheaper sovereign borrowing.

    “All very appealing – but shouldn’t we be wary of using ideas favored by the Nazis?

    “‘If we don’t want to adopt economic policies on the basis that they were favored by Hitler’s government, which is an understandable viewpoint, then we should not have introduced the euro in the first place,’ Prof. Werner responds.

    ‘The introduction of a single European currency, with the central bank located in Germany, was, after all, favored by Hitler and his technocrats.’”

  27. hunterseeker

    I agree with David. By summer next year, I will be one of the first nfe group of defaultors, knowing that in ten years time, I’ll be looking back at the mass defaultors that will follow me. I will leave my home, I will head to the UK, go bankrupt, and head for Oz or US. I am a senior engineer with 15 years experience and my wife is a teacher, and a fw young kids. It will be hard but I am not willimg to subject my family to 20 years of third world living, which is coming here in the next ten years. I am going to follow the money, wherever that takes us. Screw living in poverty, I have a very good job here, but I got caught, building a home in 2007. Now at least in 50%”negative equity. Mortgage is unsustainable. Without hope, society breaks dowm. Do you think the Greeks will go quietly into the night when their country defaults in two years time? These are dangerous times.

  28. Harper66

    I recall a while back hearing stories from the USA about banks/lenders having failed to properly complete the paper work on a huge amount of mortgages.

    This was in turn creating problems were action was being taken loans in default.

    I have no doubt that this is the eye of the storm from in regards to the Irish property market. I understand some Irish lenders are still wearing the kid gloves in public but behind closed doors they are acting very agressively.

    The personal insolvency legislation is, from what I read, a damp squib.

    • bonbon

      “Paper work” You gotta be joking! The secularization of Mortgage Backed Securites, better known as Ass backed securities, meant they could not even find who issued the mortgage. A case for annulling them many said at court. Foreclosures were stopped for a while, but the HBPA, The Homeowners and Bank RPotection Act we propose was not acted on. So foreclosures continued even with no paperwork!
      Too late for HBPA, without Glass-Steagall, bank seperation as FDR outlined, nothing will work. With Glass-Steagall those “securities” will be rendered to paper value, the paper they are written on.

  29. Philip

    The truth is very mundane. The wimmen and gay communities are taking over the world -slowly but surely. Why? Cos they’re the only ones who know how to work and get on with it and they are up front and they are networkers.

    Whether u like it or not, you will on average all be living useful lives for a lot longer than yer parents. This has 3 effects, you will be able to pay off yer debts, have fewer children per average yr of your life cos you enjoy life too much and you’ll have a few more partners – prolly same sex for most of us as we get older cos we gave up understanding them and that my friends will put paid to a 25bn population… There is a lot of sociological and stat evidence for this and it’ll jump a bit more and settle down to about 5-8 bn war or no war. It’ll not be good for property. So if you default, your prolly be able to buy it back for nothing soon enough.

    As for blowing ourselves to bits…well, that might happen anyway because nature decides to wipe us out before we cause any more bother to the biosphere or the Martians take a dislike to us.

    Finally, austerity does work. It’s called book balancing. It is called fasting. It is called a lot of things. When people suffer because communities and nations concerned are a sham held together by a dodgy social contract to paper over the cracks of conflicting interests. Austerity can have that contract properly challenged and amended. That is happening. Social orders change a bit, next boom until the next bust and another re-write.

    Ideas and invention never need money – it is just plain courage and belief in one self and the people around you. Let the defaults happen and let’s move on.

  30. Tony Brogan

    Republicans Eye Return to Gold Standard

    By Robin Harding and Anna Fifield
    Financial Times, London
    Thursday, August 23, 2012

    The gold standard has returned to mainstream US politics for the first time in 30 years, with a “gold commission” set to become part of official Republican Party policy.

    Drafts of the party platform, which it will adopt next week at a convention in Tampa, Florida, call for an audit of Federal Reserve monetary policy and a commission to look at restoring the link between the dollar and gold.

    The move shows how five years of easy monetary policy — and the efforts of libertarian congressman Ron Paul — have made the once-fringe idea of returning to gold as money a legitimate part of Republican debate.

    Marsha Blackburn, a Republican congresswoman from Tennessee and co-chair of the platform committee, said the issues were not adopted merely to placate Mr. Paul and the delegates he picked up during his campaign for the party’s nomination.

    “These were adopted because they are things that Republicans agree on,” Ms. Blackburn told the Financial Times. “The House recently passed a bill on this, and this is something that we think needs to be done.”

    The proposal is reminiscent of the Gold Commission created by former president Ronald Reagan in 1981, 10 years after Richard Nixon broke the link between gold and the dollar during the 1971 oil crisis. That commission ultimately supported the status quo.

    “There is a growing recognition within the Republican party and in America more generally that we’re not going to be able to print our way to prosperity,” said Sean Fieler, chairman of the American Principles Project, a conservative group that has pushed for a return to the gold standard.

    A commission would have no power except to make recommendations, but Mr. Fieler said it would provide a chance to educate politicians and the public about the merits of a return to gold. “We’re not going to go from a standing start to the gold standard,” he said.

    The Republican platform in 1980 referred to “restoration of a dependable monetary standard,” while the 1984 platform said that “the gold standard may be a useful mechanism.” More recent platforms did not mention it.

    Any commission on a return to the gold standard would have to address a host of theoretical, empirical, and practical issues.

    Inflation has remained under control in recent years, despite claims that expansion of the Fed’s balance sheet would lead to runaway price rises, while gold has been highly volatile. The price of the metal is up by more than 500 per cent in dollar terms over the past decade.

    A return to a fixed money supply would also remove the central bank’s ability to offset demand shocks by varying interest rates. That could mean a more volatile economy and higher average unemployment over time.

    On the campaign trail in New Mexico on Thursday, Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney said it was “a real achievable objective” for the U.S. to reach energy independence by 2020, touting his plan to open a stretch of the southeast coast for oil development and speed up drilling on federal lands.

    • bonbon

      Romney, refuses to endorse Glass-Steagall, and said so this week. The billionaire has other plans, and most know darned well what to expect with medicare, medicaid, social security. The war budget will be even increased. Paul Ryan is an extreme example, as pointed out by Maureen Dowd. He intends to seriously hurt American Citizens.

    • Tony Brogan

      Yes of course the Republicans have been forced to ad to their policy action on gold and money because of the significant percentage of their membership beginning to see the light.
      This commentary is correct in so observations about the formation of credit. That is one of the reasons for a gold standard. But we have not had a proper gold standard for over 100 years just a quasi system.
      No currency should be fixed to anything. The gold acts as a measuring stick as prices fluctuate. That includes the value of currencies.
      allowing fractional reserve banking is counter productive as it allows banks to skim profits to themselves on money they invented out of thin air.

      So hand in hand goes the following.
      close the central banking system
      Ban fractional reserve banking
      only print currency that is fully backed by gold 100%
      A static supply of money is ideal which is what gold and silver give as they are only available through sweat and toil and expense.

      Money is a catalyst to facilitate an exchange of goods and services. It is a brilliant concept.
      Money is not used up in a transaction as it passes from hand to hand performing as a medium of exchange.

      There is no requirement to have an expanding money supply to have a growing economy. It is preferable that the money supply not be increased as any increase causes imbalances and malinvestment.
      We see today that the bucket loads of extra currencies have no effect at all and indeed are now negative in effect. The economy continues to tank.

      Read the Creature from Jekyll Island–G Edward Griffin for an understanding of the current system and Paper Money Collapse –Detlev Schlichter as a follow up. I keep going back and reading pages and chapters. Both are brilliant books.

      • bonbon

        So would you recall the $29 trillion that Obama printed for the banks? I do not see Romney ever mentioning this. I hear nothing from the Austrian School including Schlichter on this “minor detail”.

        If Romney contracts the money in circulation without touching that $29 trillion, who suffers? To claim no further increases without immediately cutting off the sector that got that fluidity is a swindle plain and simple. To try to recover that huge synthetic debt by killing medicare, medicaid, social security is a criminal act of treason. But with Bush and Obama having paved the way with $29 trillion I expect Romney to drive that road big time.

        • Tony Brogan

          a lot depends on how much of that money actualy went into circulation.
          OBama did not print it. The Fed did. Most sits in banks as reserves to bolster the balance sheets.

          “I hear nothing from the Austrian School including Schlichter on this “minor detail”.” Can’t resist a gratuitious cheap shot can you. Totally irrelvent remark.

          contracting the money supply as you well know creates huge problems. That is why the banks expand it in the first place. Play the economy like a yoyo. Boom bust boom bust, robbing the people blind.

          If the system collapses there will be the opportunity
          To implement a better system. If there is no collapse then it is difficult to change except on a gradual basis.

          That is why the introduction of silver currency is proposed to be done in Parallel with the paper money and let the people choose what they feel better for them . If effective the transition is likely to take plus or minus 20 years without a major disruption.

        • bonbon

          Incorrect. Bush and Obama authorized the $29 trillion. Paulson and Geithner lied, bullied, lobbied, but these 2 presidents did the dirty deed. And then preceded to cut entitlements, NASA, but not war budgets. The FED, while likely illegal since Teddy Roosevelt, another president, created it, and out of control, is a huge problem. But top down, the problem now is Obama. He has executive, constitutional possibilities he refuses to use (while illegally usurping war powers), as FDR did – he could easily break up the TBTF’s a start. So look it top down, do not flinch. Its Obama.

          So I still hear nothing on that $29 trillion from Austrian School aficionados. That is listed as debt on the peoples necks, by Obama and Bush. Some of it went to rescue EU banks (Deixa etc), also illegal, which the FED did with swaps. So contracting the money supply without explicitly discussing the $29 trillion is exactly what the bankers want.

          • Tony Brogan

            Yes correct. the central bank does the printing and issuance of currency and it is given to the state as a loan. May be authorize by obama but not printed.

            You hear nothing from anybody about the 29 trillion so give us a brake from pinning the tail.

          • bonbon

            Actually, as posted below, Bernanke is raging that Ron Paul’s congressional move to Audit the FED, is about that $29 trillion.

            What I find interesting, is that Ron Paul, all for liberal policies and small gov’t, sees it necessary to go after the FES with the full power of the nation-state. He is right about that.

            Using that for Glass-Steagall would make not only Bernanke, but London shake at the knees. It would make Sandy Weill very happy – he will draft the bill!

  31. michaelcoughlan

    Hello David,

    Dan O’Brien asks the following question in todays Irish times ‘what innovations has the financial services industry introduced in recent decades that boosted economic growth’ (other than the ATM) Ans; NADA, not a sausage, nothing what so ever according to non other than Paul Volker the former central bank chief of the U S of A.

    According to the same article two Irish central bankers Sarah Holden and Fergal McCann have released the results of their recent study which conclude;
    Banks are not meeting the demands for loans from viable businesses.

    The conclusion to O’Briens article; ‘Banks do not have the skills to identify and assist companies with potential and they have little incentive to lend’.

    I shit you not! And you are writng shite about relations between russia and germany. All those obscene salaries paid to the people in charge of the banks and for what?

    My conclusion; The Irish citzen has been illegally loaded with the cost of saving the euro by the ECB and his her kids are being raped with punitive levels of taxes for years to come to save institutions whose corporate officers made a fortune out of destroying the place and continue to make a fortune for NOT doing the job a bank as they as it’s corporate officers are supposed to do.

    O’Brien does not offer an explaination for what in fact is going on because I presume like you and me he was born with a concience and is blinded by it unlike me. He offers no analysis as to what in fact is actually going on in banks because the truth is so unpalatable in my view his moral concience would rail against it and simply say this is not possible in a modern country like Ireland.

    We know what the truth is though which is that the worlds financial operations act like the tigers in a savanagh. Their modus operandi is to destroy everything they touch not facilitate the growth of anything which could become a threat to their subjugation of capital for the sole purpose of maximising profits in a zero sum operation and recycling such profits into the hedge funds lottery!

    You know one of the reasons Hitler and the Nazi’s were able to organise the industrial slaughter of the Jews David? The truth was so unpalatable to the moral concience of the ordinary German man or woman none of them believed it until confronted with it by the opening up the camps by the victorious allied armies!

    Will the western system have to be similarly obleiterated before we the ordinary people will be accept the truth by being forced to confront it? Will the moderm slaughter of the innocent men women and children be the silent taking of one owns life in one getto after another when food and fuel becomes too expensive to acquire?

    Who the fuck knows but I know who’s side I am on and it isn’t God or the bankers!

    • Tony Brogan

      Good comments Michael

    • bonbon

      They are bankrupt. Simple as that. All the bailouts in the world cannot possibly save them. Even if they tray a new Hitler as they did in 1932 – A British Wall Street project, it cannot work.
      They have Obama now ready to go for thermonuclear war to “save them”. They have a “Hitler”.

      That is the truth the Congress if afraid to death to confront. General Dempsey confronts it – hhe is a fighter. We must confront this, from the top down and not flinch. Top down. Do not wait for the smell of the smoke as the planet is incinerated.

    • cooldude

      Some very interesting points Michael. One thing of note from a monetary point of view was how the Nazis destroyed the occupied countries through currency manipulation. Actually what they did quite resembles what is going on now in Greece. They tied the local currency to the Mark and just like the US$ at the moment they gradually robbed all the local economies through a stealth use of the currency. Also needless to say they grabbed all the gold, which they FULLY understood was real money, and totally debased the local currency.

      Your conclusions are 100% correct unfortunately there is a HUGE head in the sand mentality pervasive in this country in regards to the debts we have taken on from the criminal banking system. These debts cannot and will not ever be repaid. It is simple mathematics because we would need growth rates of around 7% to even dream of paying back this odious debt. That is a complete non runner so the only solutions are outright default or debt restructuring.

      What I believe will occur is a currency crisis because now we have the bank debts added to the sovereign and ECB/FED debts so when the next climax comes, and it will, all the sovereign bonds will lose their A1 status. And I definitely include US treasury bonds which are the greatest bubble on this planet right now. Look after yourself and your family Michael. It’s not your fault our global banking system is completely rigged to benefit the top people and rob everyone else. All you can do is protect and educate yourself.

      • bonbon

        To quote the inventor of QE Prof. Werner’s interview with the DT :
        “‘If we don’t want to adopt economic policies on the basis that they were favored by Hitler’s government, which is an understandable viewpoint, then we should not have introduced the euro in the first place,’ Prof. Werner responds.

        ‘The introduction of a single European currency, with the central bank located in Germany, was, after all, favored by Hitler and his technocrats.’”

    • When you look at the ways the Libor rates were fraudulently manipulated…

      .. it becomes pretty darn obvious that the underlying systemic tools are designed and desired to be tools of deception and fraud.

      We live in a world where public representatives are nothing but captured personalities, captured buy vested corporate interests via Lobbies and Insiders. A quick look at the revolving door system that is in place for high ranking banksters explains how policies are literally dictated to policy makers.

      While we have economists in abundance producing a never ending stream of commentaries in a world of academics and public media where the “publish or perish” paradigm is prevalent, I often wonder if those who pretend to think have lost their ability to address the more than evident truth.

      It is a world where it is acceptable and common practice in the decision making circles of the political and capitalist class to lie, cheat and defraud as long as you are not caught, and even then, chances are very good that you will not have to suffer consequences because the legal system is involved as well, big times!

      As for the future of our somewhat fragile societies, the triumph of the financial capitalist industry is the downfall of the west.

    • michaelcoughlan

      Hello david,

      Once again another article from today’s Irish Times.

      IBRC (formerly Ango) Loses 0.75bn in the first 6 months of 2012.

      The article quotes Mr Aynsley as making the following statements; (IBRC would wind itself down faster (than the 2020 deadline if it could find buyers for its remaing loans almost all of which are in Ireland or the UK but but there are FEW or NO buyers for those assets’.

      The article also states that propertyy values have fallen 70% in value rather than the original 60% – 65% original estimate.

      Based on those observations Mr Aynsley arrives at the following conclusions;

      Whopper no 1)

      The final cost of anglo would be within his estimated rang but he won’t put a figure on it (probably because he hasn’t a clue)

      Whopper no 2)

      IBRC will be wound down by the 2020 deadline,

      Whopper no 3 the one with extra cheese and trimmings etc)

      Mr Annsley sees a lot of merit in using IBRC as a vehicle to clean up all the other banks in the state!

      I presume he would say that IBRC should be used in this way when you are on 850k PA the more work the better.

      I wonder though the real reason the salary is so large is to attract an individual with the capability to present results and come up with a conclusion which is in complete variance with the results just presented? Perhaps in the hope that the lie being so big ordinary individuals with an inate sense of right and wrong can so easily be duped?

      These statements remind me of no other an individual than the Mullingar motor Mouth and I would say they both suffer from the same genetic defect which is their insides are backwards;


      • bonbon

        It makes Goebbels blush.

        See below the list of foundations pushing the EMS now.

        Follow the money trail, as the Posse said.

    • padser

      I can’t understand why People & or Economists keep talking about the Banks as if they were the sole perpetrators in this financial mess!
      Why are we deluding ourselves, into thinking the Banks were not complicit with the respective Government’s, Etc.?

      These things did not just happen! The common people at large are also responsible – we just did not think it was going to be as bad, as it is!

      I never seen any international formalization of Economists protesting en-mass, in Brussels during the boom! The only reason why none of us are rioting on the streets – is because we’ to some degree feel guilty….cos deep down we knew what was going on!

      So did the ordinary German people during WWII! That crap about the German people ‘post – war’, thinking the Jewish people were sent to Summer Camps was a cop-out, lessening their guilt!

      Ignorance is bliss!

      Apart from the slaughter of innocents in WWII…could there be an analogy of Hitler’s endeavors and our current crisis??

      Maybe even the “slaughter of innocents – WWII” could be paralleled with the “financially indebted” today!

      • Eireannach

        You mean “I’ve never seen” and “international forum” but other than that, I concur wholeheartedly with your sentiments.

        People in Ireland knew what was going on, just as they know chickens are treated horribly in batter farms, but they eat batter=farmed chicken nonetheless.

        We eat fish even though we know the world’s oceans are being overfished.

        And so on.

        • Eireannach

          I meant “battery” of course! :)

          • padser

            @ Eireannach Thanks (thank you) for the grammatical lesson, and I appreciate your acknowledgement of my point.

          • padser

            @Eireannach…..Actually your version of a grammatical correction is incorrect. I should have said: I never “saw”. Your words “I’ve never seen” would convey something that could never plausibly/practically, have been seen. My words convey something the opposite….even if I said “I never seen/saw”.

            Formalization and Forum are not the same. If you want me to explain them for you I’ll send you a private message …

      • Tony Brogan

        The banks are the enabler. Without them there is n o credit to creat the spending boom and bubble.

        1. Close the central bank. This will stop issuing currency charged as a debtto the national purse.
        2. Ban fractional reserve banking. This will stop the issuance of credit (loans) that are 10-20 times the amount of deposits. (5-10% reserve banking)and put banks on 100% reserve basis
        3. Implement the silver coin for savings etc.This will give the people a reason to save that is inflation proof. Savings are the life blood of an economy and required to obtain capital for investment, research and development.

        • padser

          Gmorn, Tony’ you say “The banks are the enabler.” I take that to mean – the banks are fundamental to the whole process & that they are complicit with the normal cycle of things as we have always known it to be boom & bubble.

          Point one – isn’t the central bank an essential part of commercial and governmental operation?

          Your second point would seem to be an element of prudent banking practice – but it has to be regulated!

          Third – you seem to have a fixation on the metal tenures! What difference does it make, what form it takes? You’d have to deposit it into a safety deposit box, to have the value you are talking about…surely?

          • padser

            Sorry metal “tender”

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi Padser

            1. Short answer=NO
            Central banks are a relatively modern creation proposed by the bankers to gain control of government monetary policy. Also, They are allowed to be a manopoly in the production of money. It is a fiat currency and today based on nothing.
            Money was alway private property and not owned by the state.

            All functions of a central bank can be operated by treasury a direct department of the government and so directly responsible to the taxpayer. Central bankers and their policy as distinct and seperate from government.

            Central banks are agents of the bankers and not the people. you have noticed this. They issue trillions to banks and nothing to people. guarantees to the banks, austerity to the people.

            2. There is nothing prudent about the fractional reserve banking system. Commercial banks are allowed to create money out of thin air and loan it in to existance. All money is thus a debt.
            First issued and loaned to the banks from the central bank. Then increased 10-20 fold by the commercial banks and loaned into existance.
            Thus all money pays interest to the banks and requires a constantly increasing amout to be produced just to cover the interest.
            Thus it is a total fraud.

            3. Metallic money cost to produce and thus has intrinsic value. The metal used must be relatively scarce so that it cannot be readily increased.(Rare)
            gold and silver are the peoples choice over the ages as they have all the attributes for successul money like no other substance.
            They have no counterparty risk –are not valued according to a 3rd parties promise to pay.
            Yes gold is a store of value–a little goes along way and silver is for day to day use. It can be stored and used digitally by debit card.
            It is the best money by far.

      • bonbon

        See Prof. Werner’s comments posted here. He invented Quantitive Easing, Cameron’s and Bernanke’s game.

        The irony of all this is not a single “treaty” such as Maastricht was ever put to a vote in Germany. Ireland did get multiple chances to say “yes”, Germany none. Now we have Prof. Werner letting the cat out of the bag.

  32. molly

    Theres a new invasion of the body snatchers comming to a theatre the Irish government has been taken over by lifeless puppets ,who can see Ireland going down the tubes.
    The government decides to stand back and see what other country’s are doing in the hope that our problems will disappear in a poof of smoke .
    Or maybe the government will disappear in a poof of smoke.

    • bonbon

      They invaded the minds, leaving the bodies a shell, seemingly the same old jovial friendly characters.

      Now Irish voters voted for these, have they been invaded too?

      Have you?

    • bonbon

      To quote Dow Jones Newswires
      U.K.-based clearinghouse LCH.Clearnet Group Ltd. said Tuesday it will accept a certain specification of gold bullion called loco London gold as collateral for margin-cover requirements on over-the-counter precious-metals forward contracts and on Hong Kong Mercantile Exchange precious-metals contracts starting Aug. 28.

      So the City of London owns the idea, the very same that gave us the current system. Exactly same old British Empire.

      • Tony Brogan

        Yes they are trying to cover their arses as the inevitable will take place anyway. They want to maintain the control but it is running away from them..

  33. bonbon

    Germany: Eleven Foundations Start Massive Pro-Euro Campaign

    Aug. 24, 2012 (EIRNS)–Eleven foundations have launched a pro-Euro campaign, investing enormous amounts of money and recruiting prominent dupes from political, economics, and showbiz circles, to bombard German citizens with Goebbels-style propaganda in the next months, to push through the EMS.

    The campaign was announced yesterday in Berlin by the heads of the Mercator and Robert Bosch foundations. Angela Merkel sent a videotaped message of support. (The Robert Bosch Foundation financed the infamous “Amato Group” that rewrote the so-called European Constitution, into what became the Lisbon Treaty).

    The 11 foundations include, in addition to those named above: Allianz Cultural Foundation, Bertelsmann Foundation, BMW Herbert Quandt Foundation, Hertie Foundation, Körber Foundation, Schering Foundation, Schwarzkopf “Young Europe” Foundation, Genshagen Foundation, and Zukunft Foundation Berlin.

    Four of the foundations are listed among the ten largest in Germany, and while it sounds impressive, there are 13,000 active foundations in Germany, in which this is just a noisy minority.

    It is to be presumed that the monies going through these foundations are anything but honestly earned, and come from your usual suspect, easily exposable hedge funds and assorted locust circles.

  34. bonbon

    New Schachtian Measures Announced in Spain

    August 25, 2012 (EIRNS)–At least two additional austerity measures gouging the Spanish people were announced at the end of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s meeting with his cabinet on Friday: a bill to make it {easier} to evict tenants in arrears on their rent payments, and sharp restrictions on who among the long term unemployed will be eligible to receive federal assistance.

    After the cabinet meeting, Employment Minister Fatima Banez had the gall to say that the “Prepara Plan,” which provides a stipend of 400 Euros a month (equal to 75% of the minimum wage) to any unemployed whose other unemployment subsidies had run out, clearly wasn’t working, because 70% of the beneficiaries had not found new jobs. This, in country with 25% official unemployment, over 50% youth unemployment, over a million-and-a-half households without any wage-earner, and where millions have already been evicted from their homes.

    Now, under the new measures, an unemployed person or couple who lives with other family members will not be eligible for the subsidy, if the income, pensions, and unemployment payments of everyone living in the house, divided by the number of family members living in the house, is over 75% of minimum wage! Plus, those receiving it will have to make an “activitiy commitment,” the details of which have yet to be fully spelled out.

    In addition, Development [sic] Minister Ana Pastor announced that the government has drawn up a bill to make evicting tenants “more flexible,” to improve the “rental market” (!). Under this, a tenant can be thrown out by court order 10 days after the owner files charges of non-payment of rent before the court, without any further steps required; and leases can be cancelled without indemnification with only one month’s notice.

  35. bonbon

    Spanish Doctors Refuse To Obey Orders To Cut Off Immigrants

    August 24, 2012 (LPAC)–The “conscientious objectors” movement of physicians in Spain, against the government’s health care reform that cuts off free treatment for undocumented immigrants, is exploding. Initiated by the “Doctors of the World” organization in Spain, individual doctors are taking an oath that they will refuse to turn any patient away who comes to a public facility, come September 1st, when the law goes into effect, and some entire regional medical federations have come out in their support. The head of the Official College of Physicians of Murcia, for example, declared on Thursday, before meeting with regional officials: “We are all conscientious objectors.” A legal showdown is looming in some regions, which are warning that they will only permit public doctors to treat “illegal” patients after hours, on their own time and pay.

    The newly-created website of the movement, called “The Right To Treat” (derechoalcurar), has been so overwhelmed by hits it is regularly inaccessible. But the highly-effective one-minute video they issued to recruit support for their cause has gone viral in the Spanish-language media and blogs. It runs like this:

    Six doctors, men and women, with one hand raised as taking an oath, and another behind their back, state one by one:

    “I swear to dedicate my medical knowledge to working for the health of Spaniards, and immigrants with papers.”

    “I swear that I will set aside my ethics and morality in times of financial crisis.”

    “I swear that I will not let human rights get in the way of cutback measures or maximization of profits.”

    “I swear I will not use public facilitiies to diagnose immigrants whose status is irregular.”

    “I swear I will not deny health care to anyone, except those who don’t have….”

    “I swear I will not prescribe anti-AIDS medications to people not enrolled in Social Security.”

    The camera then pans the group as a whole, as each brings forward the hand behind their back, revealing their crossed fingers, as they all say together:

    “But above all, we swear that everything we just said: we will {never} do.”

    An announcer then concludes: “The health care reform intends to stop us from providing health care to undocumented people. But the right to health is a univeral right. That is why we swore to provide health care without discrimination, and we are going to continue to do so. Because it is not only our obligation to treat, but also our right. Support the physician conscientious objectors.”

  36. bonbon

    A dramatic warning from the Financial Times on the danger of war now. This follows the repeated calls for Glass-Steagall since July 04.

    “Thucydides’s trap has been sprung in the Pacific”

    Author Allison’s outspoken warning that Obama is bringing us straight into a thermonuclear war, is by no means limited to the Pacific — nor is it limited to him. Over the past ten days, a broad array of America’s foremost civilian experts have joined Lyndon LaRouche and the JCS led by General Dempsey, in ringing this alarm bell — and not one moment too soon.

    Graham Allison also chaired a study group of the State Department’s independent International Security Advisory Board (ISAB) which published the report “Mutual Assured Stability: Essential Components and Near-Term Actions” on August 14 on the State Department’s website. This report does not focus on China — rather, its objective is to avoid the coming thermonuclear war with Russia, and establish a regime of long-term war avoidance largely by actions aimed at what the late Edward Teller called “the common aims of mankind” — and then to expand that cooperation with Russia to include all other possible nations, most urgently China.


    The members of Allison’s study group included the top expert Joseph Cirincione along with five others. ISAB itself is chaired by former Defense Secretary William Perry, and includes Ambassador Robert Gallucci and Gen. (ret) Brent Scowcroft along with many other experts.

    A basic recommendation is that, “Neither side bases decisions on nuclear force structure, posture, or doctrine on an assumption that the other is an adversary or likely to engage in nuclear conflict.”

  37. Tony Brogan

    If you want a sound money system do notlet the govenment operate it.

    • bonbon

      You mean let London operate it? Private interests? We have that right now.

      • Tony Brogan

        No we have a system authorized by government that creates a cartel of private interest.
        The private interests do not own the system they operate it under license from government.
        It can be reclaimed by the people by cancelling the license and closing it down
        allowing a government sponsored oligachy to operate is against the public interest.

        Without government imposed laws(rules) money would revert to the individual choices and free itself of the criminal activity.


  38. cooldude

    For anyone who mistakenly thinks that their bank deposits are actually their money. They are NOT they are the property of the bank to do whatever they deem fit with the money and it’s usually something very stupid. Get a large proportion of your savings out of this financial casino before they blow your cash

  39. Blue Moon Revelations

    On August 7th this month I posted a submission relating to the above and ‘Confusion’ was the key word.This Confusion is close to an end now .

    The apex of the moon wobble was 23rd Aug and currently we are heading to the Blue Full Moon on Aug 30th . Today is the 7th day before this event .So why do I say this ?

    In todays Sundays Independent the Minister has acknowledged he will reveal the ‘secret letter ‘ sent to the late Brian Lenihan by the not so late Jean Claude Trichet :

    What is interesting to note is that this letter was dated 19 November, 2010 and the Full Moon then was 21 November 2010 .

    Both the date of this letter and todays issue on the Sunday Independent are within the 7 days to the Full Moon.

    • Wreckless Hindsight v Ambushed Foresight

      The Ministers subsequent decision to include full bank guarantee was made under duress of the Full Moon or in a manner that was out of his control as in ‘Luanacy’ .

      After the full moon passing he deemed himself rational enough to seek to cast the blame elsewhere to a leader more vulnerable than he as though he passed a poison chalice to an innocent victim of free speech.

      His actions were Vindictive and Malicious and he made that to be seen so.

      Least we forget this minister was medically prescribed to be SICK at the time and with knowledge of The Cabinet .

  40. Lenihan, Noonan, the ECB, the blackmail letter, and Pippi Longstocking

    Assertiveness is required to train dogs and achieve a high level cooperation between the handler and the dog.

    It is a state of mind and most inner conviction that allows you to be assertive and calm.

    The mambo jambo that is being played now on the public stage concerning the infamous Trichet letter is remarkable in many ways.

    Personally, I find it utterly risible to remotely consider that a threat coming from Trichet to cut of ELA funding would be taken serious for longer than 2.5 seconds at the most.

    Having said that, so I consider only for a second that the late finance minister was totally overwhelmed by a ridiculous blackmail attempt from Tricbet.

    Where the Hell were all the other people in his inner circle telling him that this is a stunt, a trick to scare you into submission, a threat without any substance? Oh, that’s right, they were scared too I hear you say. Weaseling around the ministers feet, muttering, slapping their foreheads, and oooh and uuuuh, and what are we going to do?

    Last but not least, this same finance minister knocked on the door of a celebrity yellow press journalist’s and asked him for advice which then lead to a the banking guarantee.

    Pardon me if I refuse to spend more time with this PR exercise of the infamous ECB letter.

    Pardon me to think that Pippi Longstocking has more assertiveness than the entire political class in Ireland, they could not train a poodle, let aside stand up for the people they are supposed to represent.

    They sold them out instead, they betrayed us all, and this is what this country and many more suffer from so badly, an enormous betrayal trauma, changing our reality forever and lasting for generations to come.

    The social fabric dissolved in the acid of betrayal and lies.

    Have a nice Sunday.

  41. padser

    A question to any cynics or otherwise out there.

    Did anybody else beside myself think that it was more than just a coincidence that S. Fitzpatrick was arrested, the very same weekend S. Quinn’s son was sent to jail?

  42. bonbon

    Bernanke Sends Yet Another Signal That QE3 is Coming

    Aug. 25 (LPAC)–Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke hinted, in a letter to House Oversight Committee chairman Darell Issa (R-Calif.), that more “quantitative easing,” that is, money printing, is on the way. The expectation in the media and among the tea leaf readers is that Bernanke will make it official when he addresses the Fed’s annual gathering at Jackson Hole, Wyoming at the end of August.

    In his Aug. 24 letter to Issa, first reported by the {Wall Street Journal}, and then {The Hill,} Bernanke said the Fed’s efforts have “substantially helped” the U.S. economy, adding that he will not hesitate to do more, if deemed necessary. He said the two rounds of QE “helped promote a stronger recovery than otherwise would have occurred” and helped stave off potential deflation, and that the door must be left open to do it again, if needed, as opposed to be restricted by any Congressional action.

    Bernanke also slammed Ron Paul’s audit-the-Fed bill, which has growing support in Congress. He said this would create a “nightmare scenario” with Congress constantly looking over the Fed’s shoulder. “The Federal Reserve’s independence gives it the latitude which is critically important to purse its statutory mandate without consideration of political factors,” he wrote.

    What he’s really saying is that an audit would expose the Fed’s hyperinflationary policy for what it is, an effort to save a dead system.

  43. bonbon

    Debate on Banking Separation Spreads in Germany, France

    Aug. 25 (EIRNS) – Linde industrial corporation CEO Wolfgang Reitzle and SPD Hessen leader Thorsten Schäfer-Gümbel are the latest in a growing number of prominent business and political leaders who have come out in favor of banking separation in Germany.

    Reitzle stated in an interview with {Manager} magazine that “With the Libor affair, the last piece of confidence has been lost. What should we think when the possibly most important rate in the world was manipulated?” Reitzle did not call directly for banking separation, but his statements are seen as on the line with Heidelberg Cement head Scheifele and Munich Re head Nikolaus von Bomhard who had done so. “Corporate leaders attack banks unusually strongly” is the headline of a {Focus} report.

    SPD faction leader in the Hessen Landtag (state parliament) Thorsten Schäfer-Gümbel also referred to von Bomhard in a speech yesterday in Wiesbaden. When the head of insurance giant Munich Re speaks about an “unholy alliance of state and banks,” Schäfer-Gümbel said, and he calls for separating classical banking activities from investment banking, then “An alarm bell should finally also being ringing in the government coalition.

    …. The breakup or the organizational separation of these two business activities is the order of the day.”

    In France yesterday, Laurence Scialom, professor at the University of Paris-Ouest Nanterre-la Défense, was explicit an op-ed in the business daily {Les Echoes}: “For a European Glass-Steagall Act.” “The debate on separating banking activities has been covert so far in France, contrary to what has been seen in other European countries and across the Atlantic. The recent Libor scandal could possibly change the cards on the table in Europe and offer a decisive impulse for a strict separation after the model of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 which was repealed in 1999.”

    After arguing for Glass-Steagall, Scialom concludes his article with a call to François Hollande: “Mr. President Hollande, this is an historic occasion to transform into deeds the strong words of your le Bourget speech and thus attach your name to a major reform, which is socially useful, bold and protective towards taxpayers.”

  44. padser

    Does that mean Bernanke wants to create ‘bonds’ as opposed to the FDR printing money?

    • bonbon

      FDR broke Wall-Street first with Glass-Steagall, literally slicing it into parts. Then he set up the Reconstruction Finance Corp, like Lincoln’s RFC to finance the New Deal projects, including the Tennessee Valley Authority, based on the Shannon Scheme here, to electrify the poorest US region. Later JFK did something similar with NASA, before they killed him. Wall Street tried to freeze all credit after 1929, creating the Depression. FDR was able to flank that with the US Credit Clause that genius Alexander Hamilton put there for exactly that contingency.

      Bernanke, on the other hand, is chief of the British designed Federal Reserve created by Teddy Roosevelt, an illegal construction under the US Constitution. It is an effort to block Hamiltonian Banking, true US national political economics, by using a “private” bank.

      Now we have Ron Paul going for a full FED audit! About time. Better yet to put it back with the Treasury, with Obama and Geithner well away from it. Under Glass-Steagall the FED would not be allowed to bailout zombie walking dead investment banks.

      • padser

        Is this effort from Ron Paul, just reactionary? Who pulls his strings – Congress?

        Has the repeal of Glass/Steagall, ultimately prompted this?

        • bonbon

          What’s pulling strings is pure fear. Just like in Dublin.
          It seems Ron Paul’s motivation is Austrian School monetarism. But at the same time I suspect he knows only the full nation-state applied to the financial system will work.
          Note Citigroup’s Sandy Weill, the Shatterer of Glass-Steagall doing an about turn and even prepared to draft the bill to re-instate it. This kind of sudden change, such as London’s Financial Times on July 4 calling for Glass-Steagall is to be expected now. It is not reactionary, rather a sign of reason breaking out.

          No sign of that from Obama.

          • Tony Brogan

            You keep harping on Austrian school monetarism implying it is the same as Keynes or Friedman

            Mometarismas I understand is the use of monetarypolicy to guide or manipulate the economy. It is what the central banks do all the time.

            This is not advoated by any one associate with the so called Austrians. The term Austrian is outdated anyway and would in my opinion be more correctly termed the school of common sense. It is to me. Their policies make absolute sense and are removed or devoid of dogma.

            This school of thought believes that messing with the money supply created distortions in economic signals that disrupt the economy leading to choices and decisions that lead to mal investment anda faultering economy. In short, what we have today.

            To Call them Monetarists is a lie. And anyone promolgating that opinion is adding to the lie. aiding and abetting if you like.

            any future such references will be met by me with the one word, liar.

            “Austrian” position on money

            Proposition 8: Money is nonneutral.
            Money is defined as the commonly accepted medium of exchange. If government policy distorts the monetary unit, exchange is distorted as well. The goal of monetary policy should be to minimize these distortions. Any increase in the money supply not offset by an increase in money demand will lead to an increase in prices. But prices do not adjust instantaneously throughout the economy. Some price adjustments occur faster than others, which means that relative prices change. Each of these changes exerts its influence on the pattern of exchange and production. Money, by its nature, thus cannot be neutral.

            This proposition’s importance becomes evident in discussing the costs of inflation. The quantity theory of money stated, correctly, that printing money does not increase wealth. Thus, if the government doubles the money supply, money holders’ apparent gain in ability to buy goods is prevented by the doubling of prices. But while the quantity theory of money represented an important advance in economic thinking, a mechanical interpretation of the quantity theory underestimated the costs of inflationary policy. If prices simply doubled when the government doubled the money supply, then economic actors would anticipate this price adjustment by closely following money supply figures and would adjust their behavior accordingly. The cost of inflation would thus be minimal.

            But inflation is socially destructive on several levels. First, even anticipated inflation breaches a basic trust between the government and its citizens because government is using inflation to confiscate people’s wealth. Second, unanticipated inflation is redistributive as debtors gain at the expense of creditors. Third, because people cannot perfectly anticipate inflation and because the money is added somewhere in the system–say, through government purchase of bonds–some prices (the price of bonds, for example) adjust before other prices, which means that inflation distorts the pattern of exchange and production.

            Since money is the link for almost all transactions in a modern economy, monetary distortions affect those transactions. The goal of monetary policy, therefore, should be to minimize these monetary distortions, precisely because money is nonneutral.2

            And the only way to minimise the distortions is to not interfere with any monetary adjustments at all. The best monetary policy is NO MONETARY POLICY.

          • Adam Byrne

            I don’t know why you take the bait Tony!

          • Adam Byrne

            I agree with some of Mr. bonbon’s comments and more of yours Tony but you could both do with being a bit more, shall I say, ‘succinct’!?

          • bonbon

            Monetarism, which Keynes, von Hayek shared, both sides of a coin, is what is being proposed to solve a problem caused by monetarism. As such it cannot work. We know that since 1795. Hamilton knew that, Arthur Griffith knew it. Even Sandy Weill implies it calling for the nation-state to split the banks! Ron Paul wants to use the nation to audit the FED.

            “Sound Money” is monetarism, a wild belief that some kind of monetary token, or metal, will spring forth progress and economic growth. There is nothing there except hand waving.

            The Credit Clause of the US Constitution, is not a monetary clause. Credit is issued, and it can be monetized by the Treasury only. But the coin does not issue the national credit. That is cart before the horse economics. The Austrian belief that from monetary transactions, the economy springs, is a serious flaw. It is reductionism, a fanatic belief that the economy is the sum of its transactions. Look at the sheer volume of monetized transactions per millisecond today, and tell us why the economy is collapsing.

            Monetarism is simply Aristotlean reductionism, and look what it has wrought !

          • bonbon

            Succinct? Well then lets get to the the point of conflict. This is an ancient conflict, at least as old as the Aristotle attack on Plato. It is the fanatic belief in the senses, against the mind. It is the Venetian liberal attack on the Renaissance that no universal principle can be known or exist. Looking at von Hayek’s lecture on Mandeville we find exactly this at the core of the Austrian School’s thesis. Looking at Adam Smith this exactly formulation is also there.

            It is very evident in Newton’s alchemy. It is today prevalent in the insane belief that living cell “is” the atoms it is made of. Life “emerges” from dead atoms, in some unknowable spontaneous way. Exactly the belief that “economy” emerges in some unknowable way from “transactions”.

            We have still today alchemy. We have to make a jump from that.

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi Adam
            This is the fumemental root of our problem. Unsound money leads to unsound policy and unsound decisions.

            succintly A corrpt money leads to a corrupted society
            more succinctly
            Corruption breeds corruption

        • Tony Brogan

          Nobody pulls Ron Pauls strings except the basic principles of libertarianism.
          He is a rare man who has integrity. He stands by his principles and has been calling for an audit of the FED for many years.
          It is an idea whose time has finally arrived. The bankers will fight it every inch of the way as the last thing they want is alight shining into their cupboard

          • Bright

            Tony, from reading some of your posts I have noticed that there are other people out there that understand the Ponzi scheme we live in and I’m glad of that. I’m sure you are “stackin” just like me, to protect yourself from what’s to come.

            I salute you, and everyone who follows you and I in our preparation for the New World Order.

          • bonbon

            Be careful. There was a lady tourist interviewed on a well known German tv show, about what would to do if the Euro collapsed while she was on holiday in Greece. She insanely told the world her bags were full of Swiss Franc’s. I have never in my life seen anyone so naive. What do you expect to happen if mobs know that?

            I think your parents should have a word with you about basic common sense.

            People here are not so naive as you seem to imply.

          • Tony Brogan

            Well we do not have to walk around withloads of loot.
            but the lady has a point. what would happen if there were a monetarycollapse while one is on vacation.
            Stranded for from home perhaps. chaos on the streets.

            Onecal already bank silver gold paladium and platinum at goldmey. It is audited and held in private vaults. Use of a digital transfer will enable trade.

            however on vacation a handful of silver coins could get one home. and a couple of gold ones may help.
            nothing helps when in a mob of people acting in their own self interest robbing and looting.

            Bon bon you are so condecending. At least the lady realized the euro could collapse. and I am sure Bright is a little smarter than you take him to be.
            Actually he is smarter than you.
            he understands and knows what constitutes real money as distinct from fiat ponzi paper.

      • Tony Brogan

        “Now we have Ron Paul going for a full FED audit! About time. Better yet to put it back with the Treasury, with Obama and Geithner well away from it. Under Glass-Steagall the FED would not be allowed to bailout zombie walking dead investment banks.”

        Ron Paul has been calling not only for a fed audit for years but to close it down.Doyou remember cries of End the Fed. You have just noticed it . You were scathing of Ron Paul just weeks ago. Now you offer faint praise. well that is progress.
        Put what back to Treasury. The FED?
        I am sure you meant to have the FED closed and put monetary policy back to treasury. More progress, congratulations.
        Having regained control of the economy and monetary policy then as you say bail outs of bankers interests would not happen. More progress.
        One last step and you will enbrace metals as the basis for honest money systems.
        The prodical son is returned.
        Welcome home bon bon
        We will prepare the fatted calf and feast in your honour.

        • bonbon

          Be precise. Ron Paul’s economics, Austrian School cannot work. Bringing in the FED back to Treasury is correct. I have said repeatedly and will say it again. Getting one point right, while following a dogma, shows us, as Sandy Weill, nobody follows a recipe all the time.

          The only way to regain control and stop bailouts is Glass-Steagall. I believe I have said that more than once. Correct me if I am wrong.

          So instead of twisting what I post, I’ll make the point perfectly clear. The human mind always wins out. We are mind. That is is what is missing in the Austrian recipe. That is what Mandeville, Adam Smith, von Hayek, Keynes all attacked explicitly.

          • Tony Brogan

            “So instead of twisting what I post, I’ll make the point perfectly clear. The human mind always wins out. We are mind. That is is what is missing in the Austrian recipe. That is what Mandeville, Adam Smith, von Hayek, Keynes all attacked explicitly.”

            Sorry, nothing is clearer at all. Incomprehensible to me.

            “The only way to regain control and stop bailouts is Glass-Steagall. I believe I have said that more than once. Correct me if I am wrong.”

            Yes you have said this more than 4 times already but as you so well expressed to bright, just repating it does not make it right.

  45. Bright

    Everyone needs to read this. Get out of fiat currency NOW! The paper you hold in your hands everyday that you called “Money” is worthless and becomes even more worthless as the Central Banks of the World print more currency to prevent deflation. The fiat currency paradigm CANNOT last forever – nothing lasts forever. No monetary system has lasted more than 50 years in recent years, and the system where the dollar is the reserve currency is nearing 50 years old. When the dollar collapses, the world collapses. Don’t believe me? How is oil imported into our country? We use euros and these are transferred into the reserve currency which is the dollar and the dollars are used for the buying of oil. When (not if) the dollar collapses, the ones selling oil and basically everything will no longer accept dollars or any fiat currencies. The only thing they will accept is Gold and Silver – REAL MONEY. For years we have stored our currency (notice how I don’t refer to currency as money) in banks to earn interest and we think that earning interest is becoming richer?! No, if you had 100 punts/euros whatever in a bank 40 years ago, would the accumulated principal + compound interest 40 years later be worth the same as the initial principal 40 years ago? NO, NOT EVEN CLOSE! Holding fiat currency in your possession decreases your wealth as more currency is printed and inflation causes the prices of everyday things such as groceries and houses to increase in price. We haven’t even felt real inflation yet, I predict that at least a 40% increase in inflation is around the corner, and no, it won’t be gradual, it will be sudden. When this happens the people who wish they bought into real tangible assets such as gold and silver when they read this will try their best to do so, but it will be too late when their money is worthless.

    But you say, currency is real money because it pays my wages and pays for food. Hmmm… But where does euros and dollars come from? Well, it comes from the central banks and is leant out to countries and banks at interest. Now think about that… Let’s say there was no cash in the world and the first €100 was printed by the ECB and Bank of Ireland decided to lend it from them. ECB says that BoI has to pay it back in 10 years plus 4% interest, BoI says “fine, great, gimme the money”. But wait, BoI is expected to pay back €104 in 10 years time but there is only €100 in the world… Hmmm… Sounds liek some kind of pyramid scheme doesn’t it? Well that’s the world we live in – the world that depends on infinite growth and borrowing, to pay off the initial debt, therefore creating more debt. WE LIVE IN A WORLD BASED ON DEBT! AND IT WILL NOT LAST MUCH LONGER! LISTEN TO ME – BIN YOUR CASH AND GET INTO GOLD AND SILVER! Silver is great for the small investor as it is around €30 an ounce whereas gold is €1600+ an ounce. And guess what, silver is more rare than gold!

    Now there will be a few different people who read this:
    1. The one who reads 1-2 sentences and stops reading.
    2. The one who thinks the guy is an idiot after reading 15-20 sentences.
    3. The one who finishes the whole thing and doesn’t act on what he/she has read.
    4. The one who will survive the coming world economic collapse because they have common sense and can see through the lies of world governments and mainstream media.

    Which one do you want to be?

    Please reply and let me know about your opinion, or at least give me a +1 if you enjoyed my post, I appreciate it.

    • Tony Brogan


      Welcome to the Blog
      Been there and said repeatedly what you have above.
      I have acted as you suggest.

      you will drive bob bon crazy!!
      glad to have you aboard
      Ditto to all your remanks

      • Bright

        Thanks Tony. I’m only 16 and that means alot. I’ve convinced my parents to diversify their money into Silver and Gold, and I’ve bought some myself. It’s only a matter of waiting now, the end is near.

        • Adam Byrne

          16, wow!

        • Tony Brogan

          Fantasic, there is hope for us all yet.
          I have noted that Ron Pauls largest crowds were at colleges and the youth turnout.
          Praise the internet. It is the salvation of mankind. the agent of the Second renaisance as the Gutenberg press was for the first.

    • bonbon

      Austrian School standard fare. We have plenty of that here. Have you read anything in this blog? More than 2 sentences? If you had you would know all that has been posted 4 times, by 4 different contributors.

      But Austrian School is well known. We discussed Ron Paul here many times and also today.

      What do you think of his Audit-the-FED move?

      • Bright

        Bonbon, I apologize for only finding this blog now and for not reading through it before deciding to express my own opinions. But when I did read through some of it afterwards, I noticed that I could read Tony’s posts all the way to the end and enjoyed the reading. However, this was not the case with you.

        Bonbon, could you please tell me what you mean by “Austrian School”. I have no idea what that means and I’d love to find out.

        • bonbon

          That means you read what you agree with. That’s what most do.

          Google “Austrian School Ron Paul”. The wonders of that big search engine, like a huge bloodhound. Dogs sometimes dump dead rats on the doorstep, but we forgive them for that.

          We shorten the recipe here to Austrian School, as it becomes tiresome to repeat all that metal stuff. It is a particular economics “school”. Ron Paul wrote the biography of its founder.

          Alexander Hamilton’s American System of Political Economics, and Arthur Griffith’s political economics, is a much more developed economics. The USA and Ireland are both founded, as Germany also, on this method of political-economics, not British (who own the Austrian School – it is part of the London School of Economics standard curriculum).

          So you now have to deal with 2 fundamentally opposed political-economic systems.

          And you thought it was easy!

          • Bright

            Well I can assure you that I didn’t go to any Austrian School of Economics. I don’t do Economics in school either, as there wasn’t enough students for the class.

            May I ask you Bonbon, are you a capitalist?

          • bonbon

            Look at that source, and wonder how your personal opinion, after all, your unique opinion, is exactly listed there.

            I wonder how that could happen, then? Maybe nobody told you (perhaps on Facebook?) what the School was?

            Now you know. That School will not tell you easily what its main promoter wrote and said in his own words at conferences. It is “somehow missing”.

            It takes work and thinking to understand this. Hard work. More work than in the classroom today. If you are really interested, it is easy.

      • Tony Brogan

        He cares not whose school it is. He used his common sense. His opinion certainly did not come from the educational schooling.

        Why are you so disparaging. Just because it is mentioned on the blog already is no barrier to repetition as I have noted from your posts.

        By the way Bright, you will find bob bon is from the School of LaRouche. A marginal cult following of brainwashed individuals who can’t think for themselves
        I say Douche laRouche and rinse out the mind.

        Post you thoughts and do not mind someone may have express similar thoughts before.

        As I said you will drive bon bon crazy but mind him not. His heart is in the right place it is just that as yet he has no understanding of what money is and how it operates. He is getting closer and we live in hope for him.

        • Bright

          I guess that the more something is said the more people that hear it and the more it sinks in. That’s the objective of the post I wrote and the posts made by the “4 different contributors”.

          • bonbon

            Repeating it does not make it true. It must be truthful to the human mind. “Common sense” is just that, mindless. An economics is of the mind, and after all no animal with horse sense has an economy. Economics involves thinking about the productive powers of labor.

            So no mindless repetition, appeal to the mind with ideas. The current gov’t and Obama use common sense and look what they have done. The bankers have “common sense”!

            I criticize the Austrian School with precise reasoned exposure of its fundamental errors. It is embarrassing for some, but I never mentioned “cults” or used slander.

            It is insane to believe human economy springs from inanimate capital – that is not slander. It is simply belief in an impossibility is not sane.

          • Tony Brogan

            First I tells them what I am going to tell them
            Then I tells them
            Then i ask them if they understood what I just tells them
            Then I tells them what I already tells them to make sure the heard what I tells them.

            Those who have ears to hear let them hear.
            Those who have eyes to see let the see.

          • Bright

            And yet Bumbon still doesn’t understand.

          • bonbon

            Start thinking guys! Use the creative powers you are given. We are not going back to some bygone age of metal. Economics is about the future. That is why the US Credit System of Alexander Hamilton is pure genius.

            And our founder Arthur Griffith recognized that. We need and will have an Irish System of Political Economy.

            Imagine! Eire is founded by an economist, and some save we should use “common sense” and not study political-economics.


          • bonbon

            … some say we should use “common sense” …

          • Tony Brogan

            If it does not make sense then it is mayhem
            Economics is a simple concept made convoluted by by disparate philosophies. KISS Keep it simple stupid.

            So you will drop your mindless repetition; good news

            Nobody ever said or suggested here that “human economy springs from inanimate capital”

            But money acts as a medium of exchange and enhances the welfare of people by improving the facility of exchange of goods and services, a human endevour. All money is inanimate

            The best money as voted by the majority of people is gold and silver.

          • Bright

            “We are not going back to some bygone age of metal.”

            So you think that the age of “paper” is here to stay forever? The age of printing people’s “wealth” on a leaflet?

            Bumbum, answer me this, 20 years ago if a man came up to you and offered to give you either $4 or an ounce of silver, which one would you take?

          • Tony Brogan

            Many people never left the concept of metallic money.
            Now nations prepare for the collapse of the fiat currencies.
            by the accumulation of gold while they can still get it. As bright says silve is more rare on the serface of the earth now than gold. all stocks of silver have been used in industry, over 500 different applications I am told.

            ask why china buys all its mined supply of gold and a large quantity of others too. Ask why they invest in gold and silver mines around the world.

            Ask why Andrie Boykoff appeared at the GATA gold conference in Dawson city and afterward proclaimed it the best he had ever attended. ask why he came again to the GATA conference in London last august 2011.
            Ask why russia buys gold.
            Ask why Indian people save all there wealth in gold.
            Ask why vietnames pay a premium to the world price of gold to obtain it. Even to the point that the value of the Dong deminishes as their own citizens convert to gold.
            Ask why the Iranians sell oil for gold.
            Ask why turkey imprts gold. ask why the western nations are so dumb that they sold their gold.
            Western nations are rules by the bon bon’s of the world and the rest of the nations use their common sense and stick with what works best.

            We are not going back to an anachronistic barbarous relic. We are already there. It is the common sense solution to the banking crisis.

          • Bright

            But of course, according to Bumbum, all these countries are nuts and are wasting their money on gold and silver.

You must log in to post a comment.
× Hide comments