August 15, 2012

Greece must leave euro if it wants to halt death spiral

Posted in Irish Independent · 224 comments ·
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Now that the Olym-pics are over, let’s focus on the original home of the Olym-pics, Greece, against the background of data released yesterday showing that the eurozone economy is slowing rapidly ahead of the troika’s return to Athens in September.

The troika will be there to see if it will release additional tranches of funding to Greece. If the troika decides to cut the taps off — unlikely, but not out of the question — then Greece would default and move to exit the eurozone.

Greek industrial output is down 27pc since the depression began, youth unemployment is above 50pc and the economy is cratering. This can’t go on for much longer.

After years of crises, leaving the euro may be in the best interests of both the Greek economy and its people. One way of looking at the debate about the currency is to see who wins and who loses when a weak economy adopts a hard currency and what happens when this is reversed.

History tells us that whenever a weak country adopts a strong currency, the weak country is made weaker, not stronger. Its manufacturing base can’t compete and those who pay themselves in the hard currency without earning it, such as the public sector, get paid in a currency they have no ability to earn.

Therefore, these people are getting a transfer of income. If they were paid in a currency that accurately reflected the real weakness of the country in which they work, they would have much reduced purchasing power. Asset owners, too, benefit enormously because even at subdued prices, their assets are priced in a far too strong currency giving them a one-off transfer of wealth. This leads to a type of looting of national wealth through the respectable veneer of a hard currency.

The country becomes a ‘Lootocracy’ — where one section of the population loots the wealth of the other.

Those who depend on exports to generate hard currency lose out enormously because it is much more difficult to compete when a currency is so strong. On the flipside, banks and financial middlemen of all stripes gain, because the only way the country can pay its way is via large scale and ongoing borrowing in the very hard currency that is causing the problem in the first place.

Devaluing the currency — as we have seen time and again — gives the industrial sector a chance to expand. At the same time, certain key sectors, like agriculture, will see their price in local currency fall vis-a-vis foreign competitors.

Finally, in a country like Greece with a large tourist industry, a depreciated currency makes it a more attractive place to go on holidays.

When a country devalues its currency and is carrying huge debts in a hard currency, such as the euro, it will default on everything, or at least a large proportion of its debts — as Iceland did. But that really is a problem for the creditors, not the debtors.

The country might, until it gets its act together, be unable to borrow from the financial markets for a while — but maybe this is necessary to wean itself off constant infusions of foreign loans to maintain a lifestyle it can’t afford.

If we examine the sharp shock countries like Iceland and many Asian nations experienced in 1997, the fastest way to close a current account deficit is not to borrow.

In time, the economy recovers and investment migrates towards those businesses that can actually generate a return on equity from real business activity rather the biggest rent generator in a “lootocracy”, which is what many of the banks and public sector in Greece appear to have become.

If investment decisions make sense, money will flow back into the country. If not it won’t. So there will be a short recession. But it has to be better than the years of depression that the euro promises.

The battle we are seeing in Greece — and other countries that have adopted a hard currency — is a battle between those who are paid in the hard currency or have assets valued in that currency, who will see a dramatic fall in their standards of living (which are unsustainable anyway) and those with nothing left to lose.

Obviously most of the broad, non-productive, non-exporting middle class and the proto European elite in Greece are all hugely in support of the euro because they don’t trust their own to run the place. They prefer a badly run place as long as they are paid in a German wage that prevents them having to live in Munich — which is what their poorer, less well-connected neighbours have to do, and have done for generations.

But there comes a time when this death spiral of economy contraction becomes pointless and excessively divisive. The smart money anticipating this, leaves the country as has been the case in Greece, waiting for the moment. It won’t come back until the “event”. This means that the country becomes a ward of foreign largesse and even the most understanding neighbours get fed up.

The truly amazing thing about Greece is that it is still running a current account deficit, which means someone is continuing to finance its excessive lifestyle. This luxury was not afforded to the Icelanders, the Latin Americans or the Asians after their various similar crises.

The only way out for Greece, one which will ultimately give its next generation a chance, is to leave the euro. This allows the process, which would happen in a bankrupt company, to do its thing: default even more on your creditors, let your price — that is, your exchange rate, drop — and stop borrowing hard currency. Economically speaking, it really is that straightforward.

The losers — there will always be losers — would be those who don’t produce anything in Greece because they would see their standards of living fall to reflect the appropriate level, and of course, the owners of assets in the country. Traditionally asset owners are very powerful and will hardly encourage such a move. But this is what should happen.

Politically, people who would lose out will try to stop this happening, but had Greece retained its own currency, it would have happened years ago.

The euro, and Greece’s membership of it, is preventing normal economic adjustment in Greece, making things far, far worse for everyone.

Greeks who have savings in the euro will see those savings devalued dramatically, in the same way as the same savers saw the real value of the drachma savings in their accounts increase enormously when Greece joined the euro.

Interestingly, looking at similar examples where countries change currencies, there is a period of extreme instability when the currency falls, but ultimately the new currency finds its level and things stabilise. Iceland is only the most recent example and the IMF was only on Monday trumpeting the success of Iceland’s recovery.

Greeks and Greek companies who have borrowed in foreign currency will renegotiate all these contracts. And, strange as it sounds, life will go on.


  1. Adam Byrne

    subscribe.

  2. Philip

    If Greece rolled out of the Euro, would be a bad idea to go there and buy loads of warehouses and a few apartments with me hard Euros before the Drac ramps thro’ the roof?

  3. Greek politicians haven’t got the discipline to implement the terms of the bailout memorandum. In my opinion, the EU wants Greece out but the Greek politicians want to be kicked out so they can play the victim and blame the EU/IMF. If Greece is not put out of the Euro currency, eventually it will default as the Troika will not dispense any more loan money because the measures in the bailout memorandum will not have been implemented. The government is currently struggling to agree €11.5bn in cuts and savings for the 2013-14 budgets. Crazy stuff in an economy that has tanked. General election before Christmas with SYRIZA waiting in the wings perhaps ??

  4. michaelcoughlan

    ‘the IMF was only on Monday trumpeting the success of Iceland’s recovery.’

    Any chance the vegetables in the Dail (the ones in the chamber not the garden) could pick up on this and reflect on the dealings they are having with the bunch of two faced cunts in the IMF?

  5. Deco

    I reckon the main fear in Brussels, concerning a Greek exit from the Euro, is that Greece might suceed.

    Best of luck to the Greeks !!

  6. carefulwiththatropeangela

    ODE TO THE EURO

    Geli baby,she’s lost the plot
    Sticky fingers have spent the lot
    Wolfie growls in his finance chair
    With the look of a man in despair
    Mario’s ordered more paper and ink
    Dodgy balance sheets will have to shrink
    A trillion here, twenty billion there
    Do you think the bankers really care ?
    Pensions, perks and Mercs for them
    Nothing will be left in your ATM
    You will pay and pay and pay
    Until austerities cold judgement day
    Decides dear citizen there is nothing left
    After completing this continent wide theft
    One size fits all, it does seem clear
    Turns out to be a bad idea
    The Euro irritates like chronic phlegm
    or a cerebral disease called the ERM
    A poor concept whose time is past
    This fecked up circus, surely can not last !

    • roadrunner

      ODE TO THE EURO (contd.)

      I’ve fecked off to Oz, earning some AUD
      Found a nice Sheila thats doing the Gee
      I’ll not be back ’til we get rid of those Troike cunts
      And I can buy my house back using Punts

  7. molly

    Greece needs to do the impossible to stay in the euro,Greece needs to grow but to grow it must starve.
    The loaded gun 2 bullets you are damed if you do and damed if you don’t,it’s a no win for Greece .

  8. The propaganda is almost intoxicating

    I dreamed I saw Joe Hiil last night
    Alive you and me

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2OivplOBq8

  9. I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night
    alive as you and me
    says I but Joe you’re ten years dead
    I never died says he

    The sadness is back and it will not be long till the crying wind comes calling

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2OivplOBq8

  10. The Irish are a sad and pathetic people. Depressing bastards and prepetually under the jackboot. You are a truly miserable lot bereft of life and about as exciting as a wet blanket. What happened to you guys

    What turned you into a conservative bunch of wankers who have lost the capacity to call a spade a spade. You have as much humour as a rotting pack of sausages that have been lying in the press for three weeks. Said pack of sausages would have more life than you miserable conservative fckers

    You are the most miserable shower of people on the planet and in need of a serious humour transplant pronto. I know some of you will agree. You are masochists and perverted

    Herr Davido will contunue pissing into the wind and hope he gets it right as he always does. Followers will follow as is the nature of followers. Especially those who are wanting something without giving something in return. Assholes

    Was in a bookshop in Sligo. One of those pound shops. Here what would
    you know. First two shelves on the right were full of €2.99 paperbacks on each of our ‘leaders’

    Dev and Collins can be grabbed for said price along with the likes of Haughey, Da Bert, Mamma Harney and wait for it …. Hannifan. Can you adam and bloody well eve it?

    They are being flogged for 2.99 a piece and no one is buying. I cant wait to piss myself laughing in 2016

    What a fucking sad bunch of losers

    • Deco

      Yes, you are correct about the comatose (spelling ?) nature of the people here. But you are wrong in terming it conservative. Ireland, when it was conservative, was more likely to muster a protest. And there were many in the 1980s. No, there is something else afoot now. The people are controlled in a strange manner.

      Today, what ensures obedience is a heavy amount of media dumbing down, and and induction of acceptance. And a lot of bread and circuses.

      The Public discusssion has been controlled. The media is compromised by “our advertising sponsors”. And RTE will never provide any news that criticises any vested interest in this country.

      Ireland’s public debate is controlled by a strange culture of deceit amongst those on the take. Everything has been liberalised, except the censorous laws on libel.

      This which means that truth which offends will always be scarce, and lies which deceive will be in pelntiful supply.

      What captures the essence of the issue for me, was when NAMA became law, and Anglo got nationalised in a six week period under Lenihan. There was a protest about Anglo. And there were web pages expressing disdain about NAMA. But these were complete irrelevant compared to the idiots who signed a petition to have a spectacle involving grown ups following plastic around a field replayed.

      Apparently, the idiot crowd in Ireland were demanding justice concerning Thierry Henry, but none of those idiots were one bit bothered about Seanie Fitz, or a scheme to prevent housing become very cheap.

      In other words, thanks to the media, Irish people have become completely virtual in their outlook. But reality is cold, sober and real. And it has not gone away, ya know.

      • Thanks for taking the time Deco. I apreciate your input and you are
        spot on as usual. We are on the same wavelength. Actually it is possible to buy a 4 pack of bog roll for €2 and have change for a sausage roll

        If it came to it i’d rather have the bog roll and sausage roll over the €2.99 paperback detailing Mary Hannafin’s pathetic attempt at being a politician.

        Erm wait. I need to think and consult my political advisor. Can I get back
        to you? My brain is hurting and my psyche has to shut down because it can’t handle an overload of uncomfortable truths

        You are far too clever for the likes of me and I know it. Tack sharp

        ‘The people are controlled’. Yes they have been turned stupid and the reason why they are stupid is because they have abdicated their responsibilities and become docile and lazy. They don’t have any right to call themselves a nation. That is why outsiders are now calling the shots

        Don’t preach to me about bread and circuses. You are not talking to some ignorant bog trotter and I hope you remember that

        Fuck Ireland’s public debate. I say fuck it because there is no debate at all as far as I can see. Vinnie Broon and the Muppet O’Brien is ‘sensational’ news. Ha bloody ha. Small town parochial nonsense

        Fuck the following:

        Anglo, Lenihan (idiot), Seannie Fitz, FF, FG, LAB?, SF.

        It is a green and pleasant land but it is a corrupt as fuck little shitehole

        The Irish are the biggest bunch of tossers on the planet. Sorry bro but that is how I now see my Irish brothers. I am ashamed

        Oh but we aye have ‘Katie’. Whoever the fuck Katie is

        • Deco

          Katie does not drink alcohol. They (Minister, OCI head and media) brought her into a pub.

          Katie does not watch any TV. They (politicians, RTE/Pravda, News Media) have been using her to get people to watch more TV.

          Katie won a punch-out with an opponent in London. De Drumcondra Ditherer was in the vicinity, but nobody donated any punches to his jaw, because it was a “green jersey” moment for the crowd.

          Katie is proof that if we ever find achievers in this country, the gombeens immediately swarm around trying to get something for nothing out of it.

          We have a “something for nothing” public ethos. And the fish rots from the head. The intellectual culture is broke. The vested interests would not tolerate it being any other way, because if it were any other way, somebody somewhere would have less profit.

          This is a country rotten with deceit. As contributor Shane Dempsey commented many moons ago….”the veneer”.

          And we seen the “veneer” in action over the last few days.

          So my response is to call it as it is, and to ridicule the veneer. So that increasingly people will switch off the media and drop out of the deceit system.

          Any book on the achievements of Harney, Ahern etc.. should be measured and compared in terms of cost/benefit analysis with toilet paper. And against not much else. Though the bog roll in the shop does not have the urine already placed onto it, and so is therefore functionally superior.

          • Bog roll is functionally superior to politicians ‘memoirs . That is an undisputed fact

            I am sure ‘katie’ is a woman of honour but like I said I don’t have a clue who she is. I just don’t care. Bread and bloody circuses right? The holympics are a corporate sham

            ‘A country in deceit’. That is open to all sorts of interpretations but I think you are saying what I was prepared to say out loud. It is a corrupt little shitehole

          • Adam Byrne

            Well said lads. I’m back on Irish soil for the first time in 3 weeks. Has anything changed? Doesn’t seem so…

          • Adam Byrne

            I’m sure Katie is a nice girl, she appears to be anyway, from the limited interviews I’ve been exposed to. But stand back for a minute and think – what does she do for a living? Beats other ladies around the head with her fists until one of them falls over or loses on points – that says it all really. I would not watch a boxing match on principle – I have been unavoidably involved in enough fights of my own in my short life, than to feel the need to seek more out for ‘recreation’.

          • Disappointed in you. For a legend you are not performing to your abilities. Up your game. Feeling lazy today maybe and can’t be bothered

            I thought you’d lost your senses and was unsure at first as I know you have a loyal follow on the most hallowed and well worn boards boards in Ireland

            I would put it down to a man losing his senses for a moment. I was going to say ‘brief moment’ but then realised what other kind of moment is there. A fact is a fact and there are no sich things as ‘true facts’. It is either a fact or it is not a fact. No need for flowery and wanky adjectives

            Moment. Not ‘brief moment’.

            Anyway ‘Katie’ won a medal and you and the rest of the country see this as reason to celebrate

            Look up Ronnie Delaney, Melbourne, 1956

            He paid his own boat fare and it is on youtube in glorious colour

            Then read the posts by Adam below and feel the anger and the empathy for Ronnie Delaney

            You sound like you are out of touch Irish Brother and not at all at the bloody races

      • Comatose?

        Yes four sheets to the wind, yes sir three bloody bags full sir

        Being comatose is the best way when you are living in an asylum. Trouble is the drugs don’t work and I’ll never see your face again

        Just two lonesome voices wasted and pissing in the wind Deco

        Cheers. Burp!

      • I think David should review the draft of his new book and include an article on the above ( Pauldiv) unless he has done so already .

      • I’d rather talk to an Irishmen before I’d entertain anyone else. They enrage me but essentially they are the best of people. I’ve always believed this and can’t buy into the masochistic self hatred that some of you feel. But it’s wearing very thin. It’s hard not to feel bitter

        Would any of ye swap your Irishness for being Belgian. No. Enough said lads. Like I keep saying Keep The Faith

        Lets keep shouting from the roofs that the current state of affairs is an embarrassment and nothing short of a bloody disgrace to a so called civilised society

        I dreamed I saw Joe Hill lasta night

        • Adam Byrne

          I’d swap it for anything Pauldiv, or not at all. I don’t care about nationality or the colour of my passport. It’s another mirage to control us. I’ve assumed the ‘nationality’ of many places I’ve lived on this planet out of respect for the locals. I care about my local communities worldwide and then the larger world, in that order. I don’t care about any fabricated nationality or so-called sovereignty.

          • I grew up feeling Irish and thought it meant something but maybe it is just a state of mind blinded by romantic sentiment. I’d rather be Irish than some slimy faker who worked for the English government for 45 years and became part of their crummy empire and never got drunk in his life

            Nationality is an illusion. It’s not real. I lost the faith. If anyone told me the Brits were any better I’d spit in their beer and tell them to hit the road. It is irrational but a man needs something to hold on to when the landlords are still bullying us out the door

            It is the same old circle. It was bastard Irish landlords who chased us around the famine and the same types of bloody bastards are determined to kick us now

            Yes. Why don’t people like you bugger off to Scotland. The Irish can be the coldest and nasties people in the world. I’m not Irish. Never was. I am human being

          • Adam Byrne

            Nice one Pauldiv. I am wide awake as my body still thinks I’m in Southern Illinois where it’s 11.15 pm right now. I’d just be cracking open another bottle of Oberon (delicious, natural Michigan ale) with my mate if I was still there. Gerry Adams was on the flight back from JFK this morning and happily allowing people to take photos of him at the carousel once we reached Dublin. Oh the little things in life. I’ll lie down again and see if I can con some sleep.

    • Deco

      If a book detailing the “achievements” of Hanafin, Ahern, Harney, cost 2.99, then how much was toilet paper ?

      • Four bog rolls cane be procured for €2 but you can pay up to …. wait for it … €2.99 in tesco

        I always knew Bertie wasn’t worth shit

        My friends call me ‘The Procurer’. James Garner beat me to the role in the Great Escape. Twas a huge loss to the world of film so I am told

        • redriversix

          Morning Pauldiv

          my rant

          County councils across the country are moaning they have no money due to non-payment of household charge/tax.

          Grant Thornton did a audit on Sligo County Council and found it needed a immediate bail-out of 10Million euro.report supposed to be in Dail last Thursday,Haven’t heard one word about it…Scum

          Government cut their budget by €160 million last budget..but wait….whats this ? Anglo bond of €6 hundred million to be paid on 3rd September and…………€i billion to be paid for A.I.Fucking B ON 1ST October.!

          10,000 people with disabilities living in “Homes” were no inspections are carried out due to budget cuts or poor management.

          But,public/private Banking Companies get money for bailouts while 5 Companies a day close down !!!!
          Every day new criminal investigations about banking but they still get plenty of money,Standard Charter pays 360million dollars to walk from money laundering “charges” for Iran…? who knows the truth anymore ?

          Bank of Ireland losing money faster than a blind drunk in a Casino,but who cares…….not fucking Government or regulator,? its a Terminator we need !

          And people talk drivel about moral hazard and private citizens struggling with Mortgages and debt….for the record.they are talking utter fucking sh1t.

          The next economist who puts a poxy chart showing statistics in a paper may just have it fed to him/her.

          The real world of Ireland is dying,people are suffering and…….. by their inaction.. perhaps they deserve it at this stage ? because “what part of being screwed do they not understand” ?

          Budget 2013 around the corner see what our glorious leaders to “protect ” the people.?

          “What’s in your wallet”..? well.., make sure it stays their.

          Make a Banker & a Politician miserable today

          Apathy is raging and so was I

          • Deco

            In David’s book he captures the essence of the delusional nonsense prevalent in local authorities, when he describes the imperial ambitions that preoccupied some of them. This can be seen in many administrative centres. It was like as if the idiots in the local authorities were waiting decades for a chance to go mad.

            The scale of activities performed by local authorities needs to be scaled back. A lot of what they are doing is pointless duplication with other sections of the state system.

          • Whats in my wallet?
            About a tenner

            The rage is apathetic RR6. I am glad I heard from you today. You are only person making any sense right now apart from Deco who is always more or less on the button

            Relevant to your post is a recent scandal involving the brutal treatment of aged and disadvantaged people in a nursing home near Gloucester

            Guess who owns and controls this nursing home empire

            Assholes like Dermot Desmondo and JP McManus

            They are pulling in about 30 mil in profits and recently threw the biggest party in the land. Makes Ireland look as backward, corrupt and dysfunctional as crap holes like the Ukraine

            Raging Apathy

          • You are a gas man RR6. A1

            Suppose I will be accused of being an old sycophant. Anyways doesn’t matter. I am a hermit lol

          • paddythepig

            BOI is losing money because folks are welching on their debts. I know some such people who whine in public, but who are living very well in reality. The Irishman is good at playing the beal bocht.

            With paddy, you need to check what’s under the mattress, or out hidden in the haystack, or what has been squirreled away under the name of de missus.

        • Paddy the pig or whatever you call yourself

          You are a notorious troll and no one listens.

          Cop on

          • Colin

            Wrong Pauldiv, I listen. You don’t speak for anyone other than yourself.

            The sooner you realise that its liberals who have caused this mess we are in, not conservatives, the sooner you will begin to see the truth.

          • paddythepig

            Pauldiv, you are as mad as a hatter.

          • Mad a hatter maybe. If you are not hopping mad at what is happening then maybe you are just stupid

            I’d rather be mad than take it up the arse like most people in Gombeen Nation

            You don’t get many replies to your posts (although sometimes from people who don’t realise you are a plant) and you are not popular. At all!. Least I try to inject some humour into to these solemn proceedings

            If I am mad as hatter then I would not be here. The guys who usually reply to my posts know where I am coming from although I do tend to mess and joke. It would be a horrible world without humour pal. The reason I post is because I know some people on here like what I say. Palatable or not

            Now fuck off and stay out of my face prick. PaddyThePrick haw haw haw

          • And as for you Col.

            You’re not worth the energy pal

            Charming as ever

      • Thanks for insight into the book below. I can’t be doing with buying books right now it’s that serious

        Guess I will be a teenage guy on mainstreet looking through the glass. Love to watch her do her stuff

        It used to be that working men read to ‘improve their minds’. Now they read without a single iota of critical thought and their children are even thicker if that is possible. Just my personal opinion

        Not only is the population fat with junk food their heads are full of fat. Fat heads are the norm and that explain intellectual laziness

        When we were young we were like whippets and tack sharp. It just became lost somewhere somehow along the way

        Ps. Guess the song

        • redriversix

          Pauldiv,

          see if you can find a Documentary on internet called “The Shock Doctrine” its presented By Naomi Klein , a excellent author & journalist.The film is based on her book of the same name.

          The documentary/book follows Milton Keynes of the Chicago Boys fame from the fifties up to the Iraq war.

          It is a simple straightforward investigation of exactly how things are happening and I would recommend it highly to you or anyone else.

          Have a great day
          RR6

  11. Deco

    More on Greece. The middle class get skelped. But French Insurance companies get billions.

    http://theautomaticearth.com/Finance/350-greek-tragedies-in-athens-in-june-alone.html

    Socialism for the rich, requires theft from the poor. The problem with bailing out the rich is that they are greedy, and you run out of poor people’s money very quickly.

  12. I dreamed I saw joe hill last night
    alive as you and me

    This column is always in favour of appealing to the diaspora. That is why I laugh at it. Seriously. Do you think the diaspora would waste their intellect and cash on such a dysfunctional bunch of tossers. Get real David. You are the same age as me for feck sake

    At least Davido has grown up in the past couple of weeks and such evidence is to be found in the writing. It has lost it’s schoolboy emotion and quite right. The lad has finally become a man

    At last we have writing for grown ups rather than the populist approach of old. Breakfast roll man is but a sad memory. I wonder did BRM prefer ketchup or brown.
    I guess that question will become part of our folklore and speculation shall continue for the next 300 years haw haw and why bloody not

    In the meantime the Irish are determined to laugh at themselves with Bertie puppets. Lets all put the kettle on and ave a nice cup of tea. None of that Earl Gray rubbish mind you

    I never died says he

    • Deco

      If Irish people abroad have any self respect they would not have anything to do with the crooked vested interests that run everything here.

      Nothing to do with any of them.

      Because they would be subsidizing the same gombeen element that made sure that they and their families were driven out.

  13. Deco

    It seems that Mish is of the same opinion as David on Greece.

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ie/2012/08/face-to-face-showdown-with-merkel.html

    I think I remember the EU Commission intervening in the Greek Election earlier this year, telling the electorate that if they rejected the latest “bailout” that this would mean they would get kicked out of the Euro. Then the Syriza dropped off, and a more obedient coalition was formed.

  14. Deco

    The EU’s TINA doctrine has been spurned by Iceland. But everywhere within the EU, it is TINA. TINA = There Is No Alternative.

    http://etfdailynews.com/2012/08/15/iceland-was-right-we-were-wrong-the-imf/

    Anybody in Greece reading this ?

    The EU as a monopoly on policy. And we are talking about bad policy. This is why the EU is turning into a massive disaster zone. The policy monopoly is creating problems, and massive systemic mistakes.

    Concentration of power, will certainly result in concentration of lobbying. It is a design model that ensures corruption and influence broking. In fact concentration of power, results in an increase in the leverage possible from lobbying. Synergies with respect to influencing policy in complete indifference to the people affected by such policies.

  15. It’s all a load o Brussels Sprouts

    I challenge anyone to deny it!

  16. I have it on good faith that BRM was indeed a brown sauce man

    From the horses mouth

  17. Halo Effect

    “GREECE MUST LEAVE EURO IF IT WANTS TO HALT ‘DEATH SPIRAL’”
    Should that not be ‘debt spiral’ or maybe your right? ‘the death of a nation’

  18. Philip

    Greeks like the rest of us are in the main as ambitious and innovative. As a people there is nothing to criticize except their annoyingly lovely weather. They have their good range of professions from medical to engineering to administration to whatever…like anyone else. What is going on?

    When you step out of any of the main cities (and even in pockets in the cities), there was always a marked falloff in prosperity. And there has always been a culture of backhanders. With or without the Drac, I see little that will change except we all have cheaper holidays to a now impoverished society. The question is if a devalued currency do anything more than to stimulate a tourist industry which in turn will be spiked by the same rent collectors as before. I just do not see industry returning until the yoke of an over-sized professional and public class are properly repriced and reigned in to allow real industry to happen.

  19. Lord Jimbo

    Greece staying or leaving the euro is not just about economics, there are also major political considerations and the Germans in particular will want the Union to remain as is, my money is they will muddle through and stay in the euro. Will be on a fact finding trip there shortly and will see what people on the ground have to say.

    • Halo Effect

      I agree 100% there is a big meetings to debate this going on in Germany right now and across all party’s with intellectuals from all walks involved.

      The outcome I suspect will be a cross party agreement to stay with the euro removing the chance for the people to vote against the euro via a large party that might not be in favor of the euro as has happened in Greece.

      The election in Germany are next year and if no major party supports dropping the euro who can the people for for on mass?

      The Greek election was home truth………….
      Politics David…..politics …….

      Regards

      Joe

    • bonbon

      For those “fact finding on the ground” a pretty clear message. Germany, Spiegel Online, in English :

      http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/investors-preparing-for-collapse-of-the-euro-a-849747.html
      Excerpt :
      Former chief economist Thomas Meyer of Deutsche Bank is quoted as saying :

      Banks and companies are starting to finance their operations locally. Banks all over Europe have been “reducing their risks” for months now, especially since the summer of 2011. Banks are “severing connections to their own subsidiaries abroad. Germany’s Commerzbank and Deutsche Bank apparently prefer to see their branches in Spain and Italy tap into ECB funds, rather than finance them themselves. At the same time, these banks are parking excess capital reserves at the central bank. They are preparing themselves for the eventuality that southern European countries will reintroduce their national currencies and drastically devalue them.”

      DMcW did some “fact finding”, quoting a hotel receptionist recently.

      Remember large companies today are primarily banking entities.

  20. Philip

    Could it be that what is really happening in Europe is a resizing of input costs to real business by forcing down public and associated professional class price structures (for lawyers etc). We are looking at a rejigging of the tax structure for local authorities to finance their operations.

    Croke Park is next. But it’ll need kid gloves. Greece is just a more horrible version of this.

    • Halo Effect

      Yes and to find out the real wealth of each country and its banks particularly of those that lied, to regain trust, it will be followed by a baking union and all will vote yes out of of fear, how else can you get full integration passed by people across the EU who are fearful of loss of sovereignty.
      The cash is a gift for those that want more Europe.

      • Halo Effect

        The ‘crash’ not ‘cash’ but if you have any you don’t need, I take it…

        Best

        Joe

      • Philip

        Pragmatically, I think this is exactly what is happening either by deliberation or as a result of pretending that you can charge the same price for public services before the real business became uncompetitive.

        Look at the input costs for a real wealth generating operation whether from running a coffee shop to making widgets to food processing etc. It is not just external uncontrollables like energy – it’s rates, taxes and pricey regulation. Now I know I am going to bring down the wrath of the minimum wage supporters…but lets also bring down real costs as well (if IBEC let’s it happen) so affordability improves.

        Renters of all sorts (landlords, professionals etc have to be forced to drop costs).

  21. breltub

    Point:
    Greece did not adopt a hard currency. It adopted the Euro which is a FIAT currency. The basis of the Euro is the GDP of the euro area and the Greek aggregate productivity is lower than the average of that area’s productivity therefore the currency is too strong for the productivity of that particular part of the Euro economy.

    if I understand FIAT correctly.

    Greece most certainly doesnt use a hard currency, just another soft currency that isnt soft enough?

    If I’m wrong please educate me, but I think calling the Euro a hard currency is misleading in this article.

    • Breltub

      Fair point.

      Best

      David

    • bonbon

      Education begins with dismissing the irrational wild-eyed belief that economics seeps like a mysterious odor from monetary tokens, be they paper or metal. This insane mental disease gave us the Wonderful Euro from which all good things like a cornucopia will spring. The alternative sleight of hand, is that a better inert monetary token will produce more overpowering vapors and wealth.

      What the hell is going on here? It has given us hellish conditions.

      Arthur Griffith precisely identified this humbug in 1905. Hamilton of the USA and Friedrich List of Germany also. Matthew Carey put it even better.

      Snap out of the hypnotic spell, that gold swinging coin will never produce anything. Adam Smith was a scoundrel, a charlatan.

    • StephenKenny

      Bonbon’s clearly had a hard day.
      A hard currency has simply been one which is more ‘reliable’ as a store of wealth, than a less hard currency.
      During the Soviet era, non-Eastern bloc currencies were known as ‘hard currencies’ within the eastern-bloc because they were usable – i.e. exchangeable – all round the world. They were also a reasonably reliable store of wealth, having exchange rates that reflected their buying power – the famous Big Mac index being an indicator of that.

      Of course, the ultimate hard currencies are so-called precious metals. They have features which give them their use, including being reliably rare, non-perishable, easy to identify (biting a coin, etc), very hard to copy, and relatively useless for much else. Except for closed economies who had no gold, you will not find a civilisation who didn’t use gold and silver as a currency. Judas was paid in silver, Tutankhamun’s death mask was gold, the Romans, Persians, Greeks, Chinese, Assyrians, Egyptians, Hittites, Germans, Russians, Mongols, and anyone else you can think of, used gold and silver as their reliable currencies. I say reliable, because they always succumbed to mixing in increasing amounts of various other metals, until people simply stopped trusting, and therefore using, the currency. Then ‘pure’ coins would arise again, and the cycle would start again.

      A currency is merely a store of wealth, and if you don’t believe that it’s a reliable store, then why use it?

      • bonbon

        We had useful currencies all through the Bretton-Woods epoch until Nixon killed that. The DM flourished under that rule, with massive reconstruction funding.

        We had a chaotic noise break out after 1974, leading up to the shock-wave when Glass-Steagall was killed in 1999. since then currencies are meaningless.

        To attempt to incant or decant economics from currencies is, well to put it mildly, Newtons Alchemy. As Griffith pointed out, Adam Smith imputed as “omnipotent effect” to capital, in his so called Wealth of Nations. Currencies do not pruduce anything, rather productive forces of labor produce. Knowing this a Hamilton, List, and Griffith did, why be afraid to do as FDR did, put fixed exchange rates, and splitting banking? It’s only money after all. It produces nothing. That is why the synthetic debt of monetary derivative trading can easily be distinguished from real economic productive debt, and be simply written off. Production can then take its time.

      • bonbon

        To bring in archaeology, is to admit 99% of all civilizations vanished. And indeed an obsession with some kind of currency accompanied that.

        This is made crystal clear, by the fallacy of composition of Adam Smith – mental capital does not exist. By the way the “great industrialist ” never mentions Watt’s fire engine.

        A characteristic of all vanished civilizations is failure to incorporate productive forces of labor, for example how exactly we of all life forms use fire, into the cultural outlook. Egypt knew this. Persia and Babylon did not. Mental Capital does not exist in Adam Smith, rather inert capital is supposed to ooze economic growth. I am 100% sure Smith did not believe this himself, as Griffith and List point out all of Britain’s infrastructure of naval power was dirigist.

        So he sold a poisonous concoction to the gullible. A concoction capable of adding yet another dead civilization to the pile.

        • StephenKenny

          I never really understand your criticism of Adam Smith. He wasn’t an industrialist at all – Wealth of Nations was published in 1776, before industrialisation really got going. There was no real reason for him to talk about particular technologies, or people – he was trying to understand the processes that had been, and were, going on around him – division of labour, cost and price pressures, how things are valued in a market, and so on. “Mental Capital does not exist in Adam Smith”? In the economy Adam Smith describes, all activities which result in goods or services that are in any way demanded by anyone else, are included. Short of uninvented technologies, there isn’t anything that is not included. The value of skill is discussed at considerable length.

          His major writings make it absolutely clear that he saw a functioning society being a prerequisite for a functioning economy. An efficient economy would then ensure that profits tended to zero, and the society and economy would exist in a state of dynamic equilibrium.

          Reading Wealth of Nations, and the Theory of Moral Sentiments, is an anticlimax, as everything is old hat, and just describes things you know already. It’s also very boring.

          Today, it’s about politics, systemic fraud, and endemic corruption – these are not part of the Wealth of any Nation.

          • bonbon

            Boring, old hat, but its what caused the mess today. Take out of economics Hamilton’s, List’s and Griffith’s productive forces and mental capital, what’s left is Mandeville’s Private Vice, Public Virtue. In other words Smith wrote the recipe for the fraud you mention.

            You see, out of this Fraud, endemic Corruption, is supposed to flow Public Good. The movement of inert matter by pirates will benefit us all!

            Read Griffith, List, Hamilton – as if written today, the battle with Adam Smith is still waged!

        • bonbon

          Smith as reported by List did not mention the then existing Watt steam engine. Mental capital, productive forces of Hamilton also simply are denied to even exist. Economic goodness is presented as emanating from inert capital, matter. All very well shown by Griffith. After noticing this glaring fallacy of composition, Griffith says that the intent had to be confusion for British benefit.

          We need Irish Economics, and Irish system of political economy, as Germany and the USA developed. Smith’s invisible hand, and the damage free trade has done are all based on a swindle of emanation. Austrian School’s von Hayek developed this into the strange belief that economic goodness emanates from gold or sound money. The Euro is the result of this, and I mean it when I say, induced insanity. This is what overrode any rational argument – everything, economics, political harmony was supposed to exude from a currency!

          I hope I have made it clear. Adam Smith was a charlatan, a consummate magician. And I did not even mention his “Moral Sentiments” yet, which actually shows how this works.

          • StephenKenny

            “Mental capital” is not denied, in fact it is discussed in considerable detail, and deemed a core part of an economy as it changes. Wealth emanates from the activities of it’s population, and the trade between them. Constant changes in these activities are a result of a lot of factors, innovation being one, changing skills being another, climate being another, and any others you can think of.

            There was simply no reason to mention James Watt;’s steam engine, or any device, by name. It was a piece of technology, an improvement over previous steam engines (not the first), and not relevant in a book about forces at play in an economy, rather than a book about the structure and development of industrial and commercial sectors. The economic changes wrought by this piece of technology, as well as others , fit into the processes described.

            The problem with Adam Smith is that it is not possible to make useful testable theories from his ideas. He describes the economy as it was working around him. He identified and described features such as: The division of labour – people with narrow skill sets relying on other people with narrow skills sets; the distorting effect of politics – in his day attempts by labour to organise were stamped on, while owners doing so was not; The effects of the supply and demand on wages and costs; and so on and so on.

            One product of Moral Sentiments is that globalisation (obviously not mentioned by name) will not work, and will only cause the destruction of societies.

            I’m not a “fan” particularly, of Adam Smith, but anyone who ploughs through his grimly written books, will find them obviously essentially correct – if, in the 21 century, rather too obvious to be useful.
            Like Macbeath, it’s “all quotations”.

        • StephenKenny

          “admit”? It is an established fact that the only civilisation not to have collapsed, yet, is our current one.
          I also admit that if I throw an apple out of the window it falls to the ground. I also admit that yesterday was before today, and that it got light this morning.
          So much for admissions.

          • cooldude

            Well done Stephen for your well reasoned points. Unfortunately you are dealing with someone whose brain has been clouded over by all this statist La Rouche rubbish. I pointed out quite clearly to Bonbon that the most prosperous era in the modern American economy was by far when they went back on the classical gold standard in the second half of the 19th century after the civil war. This period produced annual growth of around 4% with rising real wages and practically eliminated unemployment. It also produced a very mild secular price deflation which suited everyone because real wages were rising. I went to the bother of listing all the data in relation to this period but there is no point debating with a blinkered mind that has been brainwashed. It is a clear and undeniable fact that EVERY system of unbacked paper currency that has been tried anywhere on this planet, and there have been many, has ended the way this experiment is ending before our eyes. That is monetization of the vast debts and ultimately the destruction of the currency usually through hyperinflation. This was the case in the Weimar, Argentina, Zimbabwe and all the other countless cases that have occurred. One interesting phenomenon in all these cases were the bouts of deflation which occurred between the periods of monetization. I would suggest that that is what we are currently experiencing and will very shortly be followed by a massive dose of global currency creation. Milton Friedman envisaged paper currencies increasing by 3-5% per annum to reflect and allow for growth. They have been increasing by over 12% since 1990 and growth has dried up. They will blow up over the next few years and we will either return to a sounder money system or the globalists will take complete control of what we use as money.

          • StephenKenny

            cooldude
            thanks for that – but given the state things are in, the most important thing is for us all to realise that change of focus, away from the appalling happenings unfolding in front of us, are mere scribblings – mine included.

            It is not, frankly, a time to argue the toss about Adam Smith, or anyone else. As far as I can see, there is nothing we can do, except talk, and keep talking to everyone around us. Not the irrational rantings of conspiracy theorists, however accurate they actually are, but to bring clarity to occurrences, and reason to the happenings, in the news and current affairs that is widely consumed.

            Neither the political system, the legal system, or any of the branches of government, can be relied upon to tell the truth as they know it, but merely to hide behind the “Befehl ist Befehl” – an excuse discredited in terrible circumstances, during the 1930s and 1940s.

            We need to understand what is happening, and be persuasive to everyone around us. And just keep on doing it.

          • StephenKenny

            and finally, it’s worth saying that this communication is precisely what David McWilliams has been doing for at 6 years or more on this blog, and twice that overall.

            A slow drip of digestible truth and common sense, supported by a CV that cannot be dismissed by even the most pompous antagonist, is as good an example as I can think of.

          • Adam Byrne

            Brilliant blog. David is not perfect as he would freely admit in his constant graciousness but this blog has been a shining light for years in my life and the lives of others.

          • bonbon

            That is not the point I made, rather a sideways typically Tiger “sleight of hand”. The point I made was about the cultural fascination with some strange kind of belief that from inert matter, capital, money, metal, economics springs. All cultures that have collapsed involved this. The unbelievable damage the Euro has done is this – from the currency will flow, in an of course unspecified, and unknowable way, economic well being. The incredible spectacle of figures debating here which kind of inert matter be it paper, metal is “best” is something out of Holbein’s depiction of a previous collapse.

            Stand aside and laugh at the spectacle, as each side entrenches deeper and deeper.

            As with Kant, Smith’s swindle is not in the book! Ploughing theough either should show a vacuum to any educated reader. Smith denies the very existence of productive forces, Kant the very existence of creative reason. It is amusing to observe studious ploughers seeking something that is not there. Kant and Smith, with a smirk – see how they run and plough!

            So back to physical economics, production, mental capital – in other words the real world.

          • bonbon

            To believe that creatively reasoning a way to deal with this crisis is impossible, is an side-effect of an Adam Smith overdose – cold turkey. Now being reasoning creatures. Even with various dogma’s here propounded, such as metal and printing, people do not follow a recipe. The sheer intensity of the argument, here, indicates something really important – even if personal insults fly. I think most do believe they have been hoodwinked as earlier posted!

          • StephenKenny

            “Smith denies the very existence of productive forces, “. That is absolutely not the case. Productive forces are at the centre of his view of an economy.

            “The point I made was about the cultural fascination with some strange kind of belief that from inert matter, capital, money, metal, economics springs. All cultures that have collapsed involved this.”
            With this I would absolutely agree, absolutely, and it is very relevant today. But it bears no relation whatsoever to Adam Smith’s work. Money was a means of exchange, and a store of value, and as such has an important place in every economy – even if the currency is seashells – but is not, in and of itself, anything more than a means of exchange and store of value.

            “All cultures that have collapsed involved this.” True, but they have also all involved shoes, haircuts, hallucinogenic drugs, sex, and economic arguments. They may have been involved, but were not causal.

            Money appears when barter becomes too difficult. Children at school create money – we used boiled sweets, back in the day. The price of things – a look at a comic – would depend on the comic, the number of sweets around, and who else wanted to look at it. Also, how much the owner liked you – such are the vagaries of ‘value’. Essentially, only subsistance-only farms don’t use some form of money.

            But it is absolutely 100% correct, and in my opinion a very important point, that money doesn’t create wealth, nor is money wealth. In my view it is also quite right to say that this is at the heart of the ongoing collapse of the western economies.

          • bonbon

            The reaason I quote Griffith on productive forces, is that it is nowhere to be found in Smiths volumes. It was first defined by Alexander Hamilton, brought to Europe by Friedrich List, and to Ireland by Arthur Griffith. Capital yes, trade of gapital matter, wealth, and even Sentiments based on animal behavior, but the essential human ability is not there. List brings this into sharp focus :
            “Smith’s basic error consists in the fact, that he ascribes a productive power to capital, although only labor produces, with the assistance of a greater or lesser capital”.
            ” I have, indeed, fought against this theory in earlier essays, written for the Association of Commerce, but the subject deserves a more thorough treatment, one based upon the words of the founder of this school.”
            Thus in his Outlines, he point for detailed point, startlingly shows the flaws.
            “Smith and the Frenchman, Say [Jean Baptiste Say, 1767-1832, French political economist], “entirely misapprehended the aim of political economy. This object is not to gain matter, in exchanging matter for matter, as it is… in the trade of a merchant.” Smith and Say “treat, therefore, principally of the effects of the exchange of matter, instead of treating of productive power.”
            I find this highly relevant today, most illuminating.
            It is gold, real gold!

          • Tony Brogan

            Good stuff Stephen, I agree with Cooldude too.

            Here is my 2 bits worth of personal observations based on reading, reasoning and cogitation.

            The cause of the economic disaster is the use of unlimited amounts of ponzi paper fiat currency. This is a debt based stream of paper from the central banks of the world.

            I can not believe that they do not know what they are doing. I conclude therefore that it is done deliberately and the institution of the central bank is a means to an end.

            That goal is to disrupt and ultimately destroy the economies of the western indutrial democracies. Central banking is one tool; there are others non economic in nature.

            to what end. The elite monied people of the world consider themselves a race apart and want total control and dominance over the world. A properly democratic elected government is largely not controlable by them so the initial goal is to create a series of authoritarian centrally controlled governments that are to be melded one to another for the untimate one world government controlled by them.

            The internet is allowing disemination of information quickly, world wide and disrupting that process. We need to retain the autonimous nation state and in many ways the smaller the better. democracy works better in a local of smaller setting.

            The central banks issue too much currency at too low an interest rate creating a flurry of borrowing and a stream of malinvestment.
            no magic in that. The results were long forecast.

            when the stream of currency slows or halts the boom stops and the malinvestments are seen as bust businesses and the bust hits all, even the prudent.

            Given that it is established that the central banks are funded by Magic money we now see who the sorcerer is. It is the cartel of central bankers and their paper confetti masquerading as money.

            The major job of money is to facilitate trade by acting as a medium of exchange. As an item it is undamaged, it is mearly a catalyst, in the process and not used up as in an industrial application. It passes from hand to hand fulfilling its job each time. There is thus no need to add to the money supply to execute trade after trade. In fact there is a misconception that money supply needs to increase to expand an economy.

            The truth is that every time additional currency is added by the sorcerer it dilutes the existing supply and reduces its value. It creates inflation. Because of the way this additional debt is issued it creates economic activity where it would not have exisited before. It can not be forecast in advance where this activity will occur. Apparent demand appears briefly on the introduction of the new money and fools people into production of items not needed and thus the misallocations occur and destroy the ecomony little by little.

            If this process is repeated to try to stave off a collapse the boom becomes larger, the misallocations greater, until the economy does not work at all any more.

            A position we have now arrived at. The effect of new currency added is now a negative affect on the economy. one unit of currency added is slowing the economy by nearly a percent.

            The only way to stop this imbalance from occuring is to use a currency backed by a money of which it is impossible to expand the volume, or nearly so.

            Gold and silver perform this function admirably as what little extra that can be added to the supply is a fraction of the whole. Also it is extracted from the earth at great expence so has an intrinsic value not available to paper money which can rapidly drop to zero value.

            Paper money is by nature nationally mandated (fiat government decree) and not acceptable as a medium of exchange outside its area of influence whereas gold is accepted world wide and is looked upon as money first and foremost.

            Silver is not only money but is used for numerous industrial purposes. World stockpiles accumulated after WW11 have been used and there is very little except for the annual mined supply. It is excellent for day to day coin usage.

            Both precious metals can be deposited and spent by debit card in any whole or fractional amounts and so the modern application of digital banking will be able to continue.

            The use of gold and silver as money prevent the bankers from expanding the supply and the amount in use is stable and adequate. There is always enough money in an economy . The distortions and malinvestment occur when the money supply is changed by outside influences.

            It is readily apparent that the use of gold and silver as money will stabilize the economy, remove the specter of inflation; Mute the booms and busts to irrelevence, and alow a platform where the industry and creativity of a people can flourish. All people will be better off. This is not magic but well established in history.

            Gold and silver is sound money, not a promise to pay a debt, it has no counterparty but stands on its own. Governments are, belatedly, in the west recognising this and again accumulating gold. It is now promoted as a means of balancing the books of european nations.

            Maybe we will return to sanity and abandon the last 100 year experiment with paper money (really the last 41 years of complete unbacked fiat currency)and return to a system that has always worked in the past and will again in the future.

            http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-17/cme-clearing-europe-to-accept-gold-as-collateral-on-demand-1-.html

          • Tony said:

            The truth is that every time additional currency is added by the sorcerer it dilutes the existing supply and reduces its value. It creates inflation.

            Oh yes, inevitably, automatically, and in direct contradiction to ECB mandate as was pointed out by Dr. G pointed quite a while ago.

            Georg R. Baumann said…
            I said that a month ago, doesn’t take much more and all ECB action will be automatically inflationary.

            November 03, 2011

            http://trueeconomics.blogspot.ie/2011/11/03112011-ecb-rate-cut.html

          • Tony Brogan

            Yes Georg

            All central banks create inflation while at the same time proclaiming they are preventing it spiraling out of control. Commercial banks fractional reserve operations are even more inflationary. They expand a deposit by 9 times or more. That is a deposit of 1000 is loaned out nine times at interest creating 9000 dollars of debt and a 9 fold increase in the money supply.
            (As I am sure you are aware, there is no such thing as a good rate of inflation, and inflation is never benign. Alternatively a modest rate of deflation can be very beneficial. MSM lies to us all the time on these issues.)
            Here lies one of the sources of the next boom. When the central banks tighten credit and raise interest rates a 1000 dollar repayment to the central bank causes reserves to fall and a reduction in money supply. the demand from the central bank to repay the thousand causes a retraction of the other 9000 loaned out. This sudden contraction in the money supply creates the bust.

            The economy can be played like a fiddle and the booms and busts orcestrated with regularity for the banks to strip the people of their wealth and the results of their labour.

            It is why I call for the central banks to be closed and the fractional resrve system to be banned.

          • bonbon

            When a discussion really starts, the blog forces the column to narrow, and tail off. We end up writing vertically!

          • Tony said:

            The economy can be played like a fiddle and the booms and busts orcestrated with regularity for the banks to strip the people of their wealth and the results of their labour.

            It is why I call for the central banks to be closed and the fractional resrve system to be banned.

            Yep, and of course, accountability does not exist, the epitome of which is expressed in the ESM.

            I know I posted this before, but perhaps the one or other did not see this, it is a very valid and accurate graphical representation of figures that are beyond comprehension of the average citizen / voter. They are based on data sets from the Bank of International Settlements, BIS, and the visual proportional impact is of great educational value imho.

            http://demonocracy.info/

  22. [...] well prove lethal.  David McWilliams highlights the ‘lootocracy’ effect the Euro is having in Greece - the same is going on here in [...]

  23. gizzy

    I think some of the comments are harsh in regard to singling out Irish people for being stupid and again linking our lack of fight to drinking and distractions. I think the lack of fight is caused by a more fundamental problem. They do not know how to change what is happening. They genuinely believed in the last election that they were voting for change and did so in their millions.

    They were hoodwinked plain and simply. The electoral system in this country like most democracies is set up to avoid change.Constituencies are set up to ensure local politics is the main driver. Proportional representation suits the big parties. The parties with biggest numbers of seats get more funding. A more you have the more you get principle.

    The media here is owned by those in power. The main radio and televisiom stations by the permanent government and the papers by those who have benefited very well from their relationships with politicians.

    Our legal system protects the politicians who in turn protect it. So corrupt politicians are immune from prosecution while their colleagues can call people who do not pay property taxes law breakers. See Lowry and Hogan.

    People are under pressure and in that case are absorbed in sorting their own problems so do not do anything on a wider level.

    THe unions in a lot of cases a lightening rod for change draw their fees mainly from the public service so are not going to rock the boat.

    Do not judge people too harshly on looking for some distractions from the day to day . They may support Katie Taylor but do wake up the following morning thinking the whole economic situation is a load of bollix. But like a lot of us do not know what to do about it.

    Sure we voted for change didn’t we ?

    • bonbon

      Right about hoodwinking. The “oh so rational” complete idiots criticizing the conned, are themselves unbelievably hoodwinked.
      Reading Arthur Griffith’s work, he was perfectly well aware of this in 1905. He precisely identified the way and method of this “sleight of the invisible hand”, giving us a sovereign nation. Sovereignty means being extremely wary of pure and simple “magic”. So we were hoodwinked before, it is the same simple trick.

      Griffith quotes Friedrich List on Adam Smith, attributing a “downright omnipotent effect” to the “existing stock of matter” – capital. The essential mental capital, and Hamilton’s productive forces are what make an economy, not an omnipotent aura seeping from mere inert monetary tokens.

      Griffith was not fooled, we need not be either. time to learn real economics. Otherwise the various “solutions” mindless repeated here will hoodwink again. It is clear FG played on this belief in magic to get votes. It is one thing for a foreing power, Britain, to do this, but a local second fiddle is intolerable.

      http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/friedrich-list-and-the-american-system-of-economy/

      Now we are all creatures of reason, not all are hoodwinked all the time, only some some of the time. The Government has shown this with the following report:

      http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/seas-wealth-will-be-best-harnessed-by-a-dedicated-state-department/

      and this :

      http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/green-movement-needs-to-embrace-nuclear-energy/

      To time to clear the mesmerizing smoke-and-mirrors and let the sun in, and the Atlantic breeze.

    • Adam Byrne

      All due respect gizzy but regarding the last election, anyone should have known that the main parties were lying through their arses as usual to get elected. How difficult a concept is that to grasp. People just can’t be arsed doing a little research on matters and go with the flow as usual, like the dead fish they are.

  24. gizzy

    Oh and a lot have done a very brave thing and left their home and families to find a better furure.

  25. Life can be bad. It can get really bad if your luck turns rotten

    Make this song your self defense mechanism. It’s a thin line between success and failure and life can always cut you

    Listen and learn

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLiuPRMJy8

  26. bonbon

    Do not underestimate the grip hypnotic mesmerizing of money has on not just people, but the entire Justice :

    IN ADDITION TO THE SEC DROPPING an investigation against Goldman Sachs and the decision by Holder’s DOJ not to charge Goldman or any of its employees, U.S. District Judge William Pauley granted a motion to dismiss a shareholder derivative suit against senior staff of Goldman, including Lloyd Blankfein, on Tuesday.

    Wow are they having a great party while the spell lasts. The irrational belief that money in large quantities epecially if looted, will spontaneously benefit in an unknowable way, is exactly what Von Hayek identified as the “greatest psychological discovery” ever made. He did not say economic. Witness the effect!

    Interesting?

  27. bonbon

    Der Spiegel Calls on Greece to Default Because the Bailout Was a Failure

    Aug. 16, 2012 (EIRNS)–Germany’s leading news weekly, {Der Spiegel} declared that the Greek bailout policy is a total failure and that therefore, Greece should be allowed to default and be free to have a fresh start.

    {Der Spiegel}: “If it was ever the goal of Merkel and her allies to rescue Greece from bankruptcy, then they have failed. The only thing the drastic austerity measures have done is to exacerbate the economic crisis and push Greece’s debts even higher. Nevertheless, the creditors have insisted on moving forward with their plan — even though it already became clear long ago where it was heading… The end of this approach now appears to have been reached. Neither euro-zone countries nor the IMF can provide Greece with more aid without sacrificing their own credibility. Given these circumstances, there is only one option left: Greece must go broke.”

    The magazine writes that European leaders continue to play for time, but, “the new permanent bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), which is supposed to cushion the economic impacts of a Greek bankruptcy, has yet to be in force,” implying that it may never.

    While a Greek bankruptcy could cost Germany 80 billion euros, writes Spiegel, “Lest this figure climb any higher, the right thing to do would be to finally make that one fateful step. No matter how unpredictable the consequences of a Greek bankruptcy might be, it appears to offer the only chance to resolve the messy situation. In this way, Greece would be free of its debts and would have a chance to make a fresh start — either as part of the euro zone or not. And the creditors in Berlin and Brussels could finally free themselves from the spiral of threats and rescue actions that they have gotten themselves into.”

  28. Philip

    When I see the likes Bonbon’s name dropping of James Watt as a possible purveyor of economic truth malignantly ignored in Smith’s thinking, my ears prick up. Mind you, I suppose the work of Papin, Savery and Newcomen was yet another deliberate oversight of Smith – but sure, no one ever heard of them , so let’s ignore that one. Fact is Mr Watt did an improvements to a lot of things – one of which was on an existing Steam engine and by means of patent law and hanging out with a few good entrepreneurial buddies like Boulton he managed to make a few bob. He was a talented inventor who got here first with a new improvement and in time this too followed Adam Smith’s observations on competition as other ideas emerged. There was no magic in it and I fail to see your point about how this has anything to do with the existing crisis.

    Frankly I do not care much about what a lot of economists or schools of economics say about anything. All they can do is interpret the past through a few lenses. They cannot predict anything and because of their overarching association with finance, they have little appreciation of what really happens in the real world.

    While I do believe that the Euro magnified a lot of structural problems in many countries (peripheries), it was not the underlying cause. The resulting mess we see today has little to do with currencies or bankers. The most they have done is speed it up by about 2-3 years – and for that, I am actually grateful because I think they may be the cause of waking us up.

    Hanlon’s Razor – “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity” says it all. Government and Institutions are simply not gifted with ability to deploy a plot of taking over the world. Too many idiots in their midst. It’s all a load of Brussel sprouts!

    We have a structural problem at a global level which everyone played along with and we are now having to dismantle it. The next few months and years will show just our clever our leaders really are. Hint: protectionism, devaluations, or any other form of financial/ institutional daring do will either do nothing or cause more damage.

    Back to Jame Watt. We need a few more of these guys. We need a few good ideas. Whatever we dream up of next better have the word sustainable on it or we are all toast. In the meantime – pray we do not do too much damage.

    • bonbon

      Today Watt would build a fusion engine, not coal. Right we need more, but we have an Obama just right now trying to stop MIT’s fusion program.

      What Smith preached, Britain did not practice (at least not exclusively). If they did they would have killed Watt’s program. In fact Benjamin Franklin personally gave Watt a chance to present at the Royal Society which was only interested in Savary’s mine water pump.

      The banks must be tackled before any otherwise “wondrous structural innovation” will spring like a phoenix from the ashes of the economy. When they are dealt with productive forces will be unleashed on a scale never before seen.

    • bonbon

      Smith, touted as the “father of the industrial revolution,” has no comprehension of technological progress. There had been prototypes of the steam-engine since the early 18th century. In 1769, seven years before the publication of the Wealth of Nations, James Watt developed the first fully operational steam-engine, but Smith makes no reference whatsoever to the steam-engine and its enormous economic potential.

      Smith, instead, is concerned that improved, and, therefore, initially more expensive machines, might reduce the profits of the entrepreneurs. Smith wants to use cheap and simple machinery in labor-intensive forms of production. He argues that the use of improved machines binds capital which could have been more profitably employed elsewhere:

      “A certain quantity of materials, and the labour of a certain number of workmen, both of which might have been immediately employed to augment the food, clothing and lodging, the subsistence and conveniences of the society, are thus diverted to another employment… It is upon this account that all such improvements in mechanics, as enable the same number of workmen to perform an equal quantity of work, with cheaper and simpler machinery than had been usual before, are always regarded as advantageous to every society.”

    • bonbon

      Interesting you mention Papin, the first to build a working heat machine. Leinbiz discussed for the first time efficiency of an engine, and proposed using not jut water and steam but some substance with more power, even gunpowder for example. Today we explode petroleum vapors. All of this was widely known.
      Papin went to London to build a pressure vessel, suddenly vanished. A few months later Savary presented his water pump, and was granted exclusive patent for fire machines by the Royal Society. Comparing Papin’s to Savary’s design makes interesting reading. Savary’s machine was for clearing mine water, so labor-intensive work could continue.
      Benjamin Franklin realized the importance of Watt’s work.

  29. StephenKenny

    We talk about all these ideas, about people accused of being wrong, or right; we discuss the situation as if it is an essentially functional system that has somehow become broken: Change economic theories, and it will all come right; move the focus from finance to manufacturing and it will all become right; give people more choice, or less choice, and it will all become right;; print and spend more money, or less money, and it will all come right.

    Unfortunately, the one central theme that has become apparent over the past 5 or so years, is that the system is fundamentally corrupt, and fraud is endemic. We are witnessing the greatest crimes in history, the lives of millions, and tens of millions of people are being destroyed by a few western countries, for the personal financial benefit of a few thousand people. Legal systems that took generations, and millions of lives, to build, are being swept aside because of trivial inconveniences to a few people, or in some cases, merely to satisfy personal egos. The systems that we created, and sustain at huge cost, have ignored every principle, every rule, every law, every protocol, purely to benefit themselves and the few thousand , at ever increasing and broadening cost to us all.

    Public Relations machines are running at 200% all around us. Very little of what we receive in the newspapers, the TV, or on the radio, is usefully true. It’s sort of true, based loosely on the truth, contains a grain of truth, but isn’t, actually, true. To tell the truth these days, places one in the same classification as fans of UFO abduction. Basically, crazy.

    • Philip

      To say the system is fundamentally corrupt or fraudulent presupposes it was ever anything else. I think the more accurate statement is to say…we are all getting a little more street wise. I am supposing you live in the west like me, so our ability to sit down as write a few things is at the expense of someone else having to be poorer. We need to realise that,

      The west is living beyond its means and guess what, China, India and a few others would like some of that. That is all that is happening. Personally, I believe we need to reach out and share and accept this fact.

      As for finance, laws etc…they have always been subject to corruption. But the comfort is that they are also subject to cock ups as well. This is the reality of the environment we need to negotiate day in and day out. There will always be insiders and outsiders. The trick is to wise up and move on.

      • StephenKenny

        It is, I think, a matter of degree. When Barings Bank was brought down by the ‘rogue trader’, Nick Leeson, in 1994, the biggest bonus he’d ever received, was about $250k. Today, the average salary at Goldman Sachs is about $650k, and bonuses of $10m-$100m are common.
        Wall Street bonuses in 2011 were $25bn, up from about $1.5 billion during the height of the junk bond/insider trader mania of the 1980s.
        Those were the days when bankers went to prison for fraud. The whole insider trading thing in the US, and Guinness Four, in London.
        There is always dishonesty – people steal paperclips at work – and simply putting all of it into one basket is missing the point that civilised nations, in my understanding of the past 1,000 years in the west, is about about protecting the weak, and reining in ‘might is right’. We are watching the pensions of everyone over the age of about 30, being, effectively, stolen, and the productive sector of the economy – and therefore our future well being – being sacrificed on the alter of a sort of corporate-statism.

        • Philip

          Not denying civilizing is necessary, part of building rights and is hard work and has to happen. There will be degradations and advances. The trick is education and critical thinking.

          Financial mess is about the law not keeping up with the advances in technology. That too will be fixed in time.

          Right now we have a lot of dangerous tools of 21st Century and a lot of 19th Century thinking managing them and people playing with the loopholes created by globalization. It’s a bad mix.

          • StephenKenny

            I must disagree with your second point. All the necessary laws are, absolutely, in place to deal with the crimes that we have seen, and no doubt now will continue to see. The difficulty has been to find anyone who’s prepared to enforce them.

          • Stephen Kenny

            Irish Laws on Crime are all flawed .Ireland would not have had to endure mass emmigration of its youth and professionals were the laws properly written into the statutes.

          • ‘Enforcement’ is opium to the masses ‘little people’ to protect the elite .

          • bonbon

            Again, the crisis is now caused by technology. That’s a good one, better than the previous apologetic. Theft is now wealth diffusion, the equation the high frequency traders solve in real time, Black-Sholes, is technology. To claim software and hardware created the mess, is the flip side of Adam Smith’s “economics from capital matter”.

            Good one!

        • bonbon

          Sandy Weill, the Banker himself, self-described Shatter-of-Glass-Steagall openly called for that law to be reinstated, and that Dodd Frank- Volcker, simply cannot work. He knows what he is talking about. We need to put that law back and then enforce it.

          One can have a different opinion of course. Many banksters do.

        • bonbon

          Obama just stole the pensions of 20,000 Delphi workers. Note – Obama not the bankers, who of course demanded it.

        • bonbon

          We had no “nations” – more precisely Constitutional Republics until 1783. We had their reflection, as if of distant notes from the future, with Louis XI, Henry 7, Charlemagne, but the first time the General Welfare as a principle above any positive law is only ~200 years ago. This is in fact De Cusa’s principle. Dealings between nations based on that principle are defined in the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia, now UN Charter.
          Of course it is still a major battle to prevail against the reactionary echoes of a feudal degeneracy centered in London and its satrapy Wall Street.

          • StephenKenny

            You’re talking about this from the point of view of a centralised global government.

            Nations – peoples of common language and culture, or people sharing a geographically distinct area – have existed since … probably always. “all nations on earth will be blessed” is from the book of Genesis (in every translation I could find).

          • bonbon

            De Cusa defined nation in the late 1400′s just before Columbus set off. Without a commitment to the General Welfare, Common good, you do not have a nation, rather tribes. When records are checked again, we find Louis XI did understand this. The League of Cambrai was the first time a national army, Spain’s, showed things changed. The “Republic of Venice” faced extinction, saved only by treachery. Charlemagne also knew Venice was the enemy of every national development. Venice is the source of the financial system today destroying nations, Greece…, is the most vicious murderous way.

        • bonbon

          Rogue traders, lone assassins, do not exist. Public falls for the romantic fairy tale most of the time.

      • StephenKenny

        The globalisation argument is interesting, and popular at the moment. At the same time as accepting this argument, we accept the argument that the Greek, Spanish, Irish, and UK economies will never compete with Germany.

        China and India have massive problems to overcome, social and cultural not the least, and it will be interesting to see how they pan out.

        • bonbon

          China and India are tackling things differently. India had a huge power cut last week, as the current admin has neglected infrastructure for a while.
          China has huge programs running.
          Social problems can only be dealt with by progress.

    • bonbon

      Still, to keep one’s sense of humor, see Steven Colbert’s hilarious expose of Truthiness, first defined for Bush. It’s on youtube.

      Truthiness is beyond spin, PR, it is a quantum leap in thinking! My oh my, it makes Adam Smith look primitive!

  30. michaelcoughlan

    Hi Pauldiv,

    It’s very important that the points you make about Irish people are made because the truth is not very much different to your rant. We Irish are manny respects are far worse than anything in your rant because in this Irishman’s view what nation on the earth could be so insufferable as to allow the young people of this country to
    Be made scapegoats for what has been done to it by the establishment?
    When posting back your observations with real world examples and don’t bother with the expletives. That way it will be possible to take you points of view seriously.

  31. [...] Read the rest @ DavidMcWilliams.ieBe Sociable, Share! Tweet [...]

  32. diarmuidx

    Greece’s future is certainly out of the Euro, and then they have 5-10 years more, of misery to look forward to.

    When: The whispers are Christmas / New year 2012/2013 or Easter 2013 when there are some bank holidays which will aid the introduction of a new currency. ( And at latest Christmas 2013/2014.)

    However, Spain’s story as it is currently unfolding is much more worrying.

    It is a trillion euro economy that has the power to deepen and prolong a euro-wide recession.

    Which means, no recovery, nor a path for Ireland to grow our way out of our debt mountain.

    Follow this link for a very detailed and excellent analysis of Spain’s debt situation.

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/812321-6-reasons-spain-will-keep-spreading-the-pain

    Beware!

    Danger lies ahead, in Sept 2012- Jan 2013. I fear we are heading, once more, for a deeper global financial crisis.

    The Catalysts:

    Sept, Oct: Some ECB action, but will be too little and too late, and it will be perceived as more can kicking.

    Sept-Nov: Change of leadership in China. Currently housing and stock market bubble look prone to burst. However this is being managed very wisely by the chinese leadership as they are keen to avoid pain and economic instability until power is smoothly transferred. (Same happened during summer 2008, Olympics. And we know what happened in Nov. 2008.)

    Sept/Oct: US Fed, possible QE3, perhaps not. However Fed armory is spent, and no longer effective. (QE3 will briefly inflate asset prices. Period)

    Nov: US Election. Paralysis in run-up

    Jan 2013: US Fiscal Cliff, when Bush Era tax cuts automatically expire, and if that happens it will knock 2-4% of US GDP and Congress will have to tackle the deficit. Less gov spending…etc…

    Global growth depends so much on the US consumer and unfortunately the consumer is still dead and continues to deleverage.

    But the good news is in Sept/Oct Ireland is going to have a beautiful, long, hot Indian summer that lasts 25 days.!!! I am buying the sun-screen now. (Special offer in LIDL.) !!

    • bonbon

      Good points. Only missing is this :

      MAUREEN DOWD: Paul Ryan — the cutest package that cruelty ever came in

      Romney has outsourced his political identity to a numbers guy whose numbers don’t add up.

      I’D BEEN wondering how long it would take Republicans to realise that Paul Ryan is their guy. He’s the cutest package that cruelty ever came in. He has a winning air of sad cheerfulness.

      He’s affable and clean-cut, with the Irish altar-boy widow’s peak and droopy, winsome blue eyes and unashamed sentimentality. Who better to rain misery upon the heads of millions of Americans?

      Unlike W, he’s not even going to make a feint at “compassionate conservatism”. Why bother with some silly scruple or toehold of conscience? Unlike some of the right-wing ayatollahs, Ryan doesn’t threaten with moral and cultural gusts of sulphur.

      He seems more like a friendly guidance counsellor who wants to teach us how to live, get us in shape, PowerPoint away the social safety net to make the less advantaged more self-reliant, as he makes the rich richer.

      He’s for burning the village to save it, so we can avoid the fiscal cliff, or as he and his fellow conservative Cassandras ominously call it, “the debt bomb”.

      Ryan should stop being so lovable. People who intend to hurt other people should wipe the smile off their faces. — (New York Times service)

      • cooldude

        Obama and Romney are two sides of the same coin. All of this is to entertain the masses and keep up the pretence that they actually have a choice. The only voice for real change and to actually take away the banksters franchise over the way money is created and who benefits from it was Ron Paul but the mainstream media ignored and vilified him at every opportunity. Obama’s US citizenship is dodgy and Romney avoided Vietnam by going to France. Ron Paul served as a medic throughout the war and since then he is totally anti war. Both of these guys are war mongers just like their the idiots in England Cameron and Haig. What are a pair of war mongering shits. This so called Free Syrian Army are a bunch of CIA mercenaries, many of whom are members of Al Queda, and their only interest is removing Assad. They don’t give a monkeys about human rights or democracy they are just working for the side who pays the best. The only media station giving any sort of unbiased coverage on this “insurrection” is RT and this is a sad fact of where to get the truth on current events. Syria is the warm up and Iran will be their next goal. If you think any of this is a “conspiracy” simply read the neocons guide for the next century which was released before Bush got into office and called for an invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and finally Iran. And you think Obama and Romney are different. They are just playing the tune like they are told.

        • cooldude

          Excuse the typos must take lessons off Pauldiv on how to write after a few bevies.

        • Colin

          I agree that we are being disgracefully fed horse manure regarding coverage of Syria. Rebels are a bunch of islamo-fascists, mujahadeen murderers from various countries, attempting to usher in Sharia law, who terrible affect on the Native Christian populations and other minorities. Why does the West support this? I’ve no fucking idea, call it liberal lefty influenced multiculturalism islamo-fascism-appeasement. Hitler used to be great pals with hte Mufti of Jerusalem – rumour has it that the mufti inspired Hitler to arrive at the final solution.

          There is one huge difference between Obama and Romney. Romney is an Israeliphile, Obama is an Israeliphobe.

          • bonbon

            It is obvious to a blind man in a dark room why Obama is supporting Blair’s program in Syria. Russia is the target. That means thermonuclear war. The British “guerrilla theater” case to go after Putin is all over the press. Obama supports the anarchists, put out a White House message.

            Obama is being played by Blair, the peace negotiator of South West Asia. Saudi Arabia is funding the foreign “rebels” since Prince Bandhar (of 9/11 fame) became intelligence chief. Again we see the Saudi-British waltz that gave us 9/11.

        • bonbon

          I’m afraid you are missing the key role Saudia is playing. I posted that above.

      • bonbon

        Paul Ryan is extreme Austrian School, the nice lad, his mom would be proud! Ron Paul also.

        Ryan is von Hayek with an Irish sentimental smile.

        People who intend to hurt other people should wipe the smile off their faces.

        Thanks Maureen!

        • Tony Brogan

          On what evidence do you aver that Paul Ryan is extreeme Austrian School? What is extreme Austrian school

          Ron Paul voted AGAINST the Paul Ryan Budget proposal.

          How is Ryan, von Heyak with a smile? Why should we care?

          • bonbon

            A recording of a 2005 speech that Mr. Ryan gave to the Atlas Society in which he himself stated:

            I grew up reading Ayn Rand and it taught me quite a bit about who I am and what my value systems are, and what my beliefs are. It’s inspired me so much that it’s required reading in my office for all my interns and my staff. We start with Atlas Shrugged. People tell me I need to start with The Fountainhead then go to Atlas Shrugged [laughter]. There’s a big debate about that. We go to Fountainhead, but then we move on, and we require Mises and Hayek as well.

            At the Austrian website Ayn Rand is promoted, even when Rand accused Hayek of being a compromiser.

            It gets even crazier – directly from Rand : “Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper … Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs.” – Atlas Shrugged.
            This is where the Austrian School and Ayn Rand intersect.

  33. gizzy

    It’s a mad world Davy’s today say the Banks could cost a further 2.5 billion to bring the bill to 65 billion but should increase the rate of home reposessions to repair their balance sheets,

    They actually said that without batting an eyelid. So they belive really that the Banks who brought down the economy were rescued brom complete insolvency should not take the home from citizens at a quicker rate.

    So now people need banks more than homes. Morally bankrupt.

    • bonbon

      It’s the sparkle of money! The aura from piles of it! Sure we should all empty our wallets, onto the mountain as its for sure to bring forth wonders like a volcano – an innovation. Now don’t anyone hinder those banker priests doing their incantations, the spell might be broken!

      Whole peoples go through phases, the archaeo’s and anthro’s, but especially Homer, Aeschylus, Shakespeare, Schiller, Heine see the effect.

  34. gizzy

    sorry meant now take the homes

  35. molly

    Can somebody explain to me how civil servants who are well up the system are so well protected even when they fuck up and are moved to different sections and there pay is maintained and in some cases they get a pay rises and a better position.

  36. Tull McAdoo

    New Government me eyeball…..FineGael/Labour….tweedle dee Tweedle dom….

    La roue tourne, retour à la case depart. Take it away Zaho

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJI3CIFsPXY

    1 Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food
    2 Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport
    3 Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
    4 Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs
    5 Department of Defence
    6 Department of Education and Skills
    7 Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation
    8 Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government
    9 Department of Finance
    10 Department of Foreign Affairs
    11 Department of Health and Children
    12 Department of Justice and Law Reform
    13 Department of Social Protection
    14 Department of the Taoiseach
    15 Department of Transport

    Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food
    1.1 An Bord Bia

    1.2 Animal Remedies Consultative Committee

    1.3 COFORD

    1.4 Coillte

    1.5 Consumer Liaison Panel

    1.6 Farm Animal Welfare Advisory Council

    1.7 Irish National Stud

    1.8 National Milk Agency

    1.9 RELAY

    1.10 Teagasc

    1.11 Veterinary Council

    1.12 Sea Fisheries Protection Authority

    1.13 Bord Iascaigh Mhara

    1.14 Aquaculture Licences Appeals

    Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport
    2.1 Abbey Theatre

    2.2 Arts Council

    2.3 Irish Greyhound Board/Bord na gCon

    2.4 Bord Scannán na hÉireann

    2.5 Chester Beatty Library

    2.6 Council of National Cultural Institutions

    2.7 Crawford Gallery Cork

    2.8 Culture Ireland

    2.9 Fáilte Ireland

    2.10 Horse Racing Ireland

    2.11 Irish Genealogy Limited

    2.12 Irish Manuscripts Commission

    2.13 Irish Museum of Modern Art

    2.14 Irish Sports Council

    2.15 National Concert Hall

    2.16 National Gallery of Ireland

    2.17 National Library of Ireland

    2.18 National Museum of Ireland

    2.19 National Sports Campus Development Authority

    2.20 Tourism Ireland

    2.21 The Turf Club – Office of the Governing Bodies

    Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources

    3.1 An Post

    3.2 Bord Gais Eireann

    3.3 Bord na Mona

    3.4 Broadcasting Commission of Ireland

    3.5 Broadcasting Complaints Commission

    3.6 Central Fisheries Board

    3.7 Commission for Communications Regulation

    3.8 Commission for Energy Regulation

    3.9 Digital Hub Development Agency

    3.10 Eastern Regional Fisheries Board

    3.11 Eirgrid

    3.12 ESB

    3.13 Fisheries Co-Op Societies

    3.14 Irish National Petroleum Ltd

    3.15 Marine Institute

    3.16 Mining Board

    3.17 National Oil Reserves Agency

    3.18 National Salmon Commission

    3.19 North Western Regional Fisheries Board

    3.20 Northern Regional Fisheries Board

    3.21 RTÉ

    3.22 Shannon Regional Fisheries Board

    3.23 South Regional Fisheries Board

    3.24 South Western Regional Fisheries Board

    3.26 TG4

    3.27 Western Regional Fisheries Board

    3.28 Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission

    3.29 Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority

    3.30 Inland Fisheries Ireland

    Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs
    4.1 An Coimisinéir Teanga

    4.2 The Equality Tribunal

    4.3 An Coimisiún Logainmneacha

    4.4 The Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests for Ireland

    4.5 Bord o Ulstér-Scotch

    4.6 Comhairle na Tuaithe

    4.7 Dormant Accounts Board

    4.8 Foras na Gaeilge

    4.9 Local Drugs Taskforces

    4.10 National Advisory Committee on Drugs

    4.11 National Drugs Strategy Team

    4.12 National Monitoring Committee Overseeing the Operation of the Rapid Programme

    4.13 Oifig Choimisinéir na d’Teangacha Oifigiúla

    4.14 Pobal

    4.15 Regional Drugs Taskforces

    4.16 Údarás na Gaeltachta

    4.17 Western Development Commission

    4.18 Waterways Ireland

    4.19 Fóram na Gaeilge

    4.20 Family Support Agency

    Department of Defence
    5.1 Army Pensions Board

    5.2 Civil Board

    5.3 Coiste an Asgard

    5.4 Forces Canteen Board

    5.5 The Irish Red Cross Society

    Department of Education and Skills
    6.1 Advisory Council for English Language Schools

    6.2 Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies

    6.3 Education Board

    6.4 FETAC: Further Education and Training Awards Council

    6.5 Grangegorman Development Agency

    6.6 HETAC: Higher Education and Training Awards Council

    6.7 HEA — Higher Education Authority

    6.8 Integrated Ireland Language and Training Ltd

    6.9 International Education Board – Ireland

    6.10 Irish Research Council for Science, Engineering and Technology

    6.11 Irish Research Council for the Humanities and Social Sciences

    6.12 Léargas

    6.13 National Council for Curriculum and Assessment

    6.14 National Council for Special Education

    6.15 National Education Welfare Board

    6.16 National Qualifications Authority of Ireland

    6.17 State Examinations Commission

    6.18 The President’s Award – Gaisce

    6.19 The Teaching Council

    6.20 Athlone IT

    6.21 Blanchardstown IT

    6.22 Cork IT

    6.23 Carlow IT

    6.24 Dublin City University

    6.25 Dublin IT

    6.26 Galway-Mayo IT

    6.27 Institute of Art Design and Technology, Dun Laoghaire

    6.28 Letterkenny IT

    6.29 Limerick IT

    6.30 National College of Art and Design

    6.31 National University of Ireland

    6.32 Sligo IT

    6.33 Tallaght IT

    6.34 Tipperary Institute

    6.35 Tourism College Killybegs

    6.36 Tralee IT

    6.37 Trinity College Dublin

    6.38 University College Dublin

    6.39 University College Cork

    6.40 University of Limerick

    6.41 NUI Maynooth

    6.42 NUI Galway

    6.43 Waterford IT

    6.44 National Adult Learning Council

    6.45 Teachers Arbitration Board

    6.46 National Youth Work Advisory Council

    Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation
    7.1 City and County CEBs

    7.2 Advisory Science Council

    7.3 Competition Law Review Group

    7.4 Crafts Council of Ireland

    7.5 Employment Appeals Tribunal

    7.6 Enterprise Ireland

    7.7 Expert Group on Future Skills Needs

    7.8 FÁS

    7.9 Forfás

    7.10 High Level Group on Business Regulation

    7.11 IAASA

    7.12 IDA Ireland

    7.13 InterTrade Ireland

    7.14 Irish Council for Bioethics

    7.15 Labour Court

    7.16 Labour Relations Commission

    7.17 National Authority for Occupational Safety and Health

    7.18 National Competitiveness Council

    7.19 National Consumer Agency

    7.20 National Employment Rights Authority

    7.21 National Framework Committee for Work/Life Balance

    7.22 National Standards Authority of Ireland

    7.23 Office of the Directors Corporate Enforcement

    7.24 Patents Agents Board

    7.25 Personal Injuries Assessment Board

    7.26 Science Foundation Ireland

    7.27 Shannon Development

    7.28 Skillsnet Limited

    7.29 Small Business Forum – Implementation Group

    7.30 The Competition Authority

    7.31 Trade Mark Agents Board

    7.32 Nitrigin Eireann Teoranta

    Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government
    8.1 Affordable Homes Partnership

    8.2 An Bord Pleanála

    8.3 An Chomhairle Leabharlanna

    8.4 Building Regulations Advisory Body

    8.5 Comhar Sustainable Development Council

    8.6 Designated Areas Appeals Advisory Board

    8.7 Dublin Docklands Development Authority Board

    8.8 Dublin Docklands Development Council

    8.9 Environmental Information Service

    8.10 Environmental Protection Agency

    8.11 Fire Services Council

    8.12 Housing Agency

    8.13 Irish Water Safety

    8.14 Limerick Northside Regeneration Agency

    8.15 Limerick Southside Regeneration Agency

    8.16 Local Government Computer Services Board

    8.17 Local Government Management Services Board

    8.18 Met Éireann

    8.19 National Building Agency

    8.20 National Traveller Accommodation Committee

    8.21 Private Residential Tenancies Board

    8.22 Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland

    8.23 Taskforce on Special Aid for the Elderly

    8.24 The Heritage Council

    8.25 The Rent Tribunal

    8.26 – 140 Local Councils (County, City and Town)

    Department of Finance
    9.1 Credit Union Advisory Committee

    9.2 Decentralisation Implementation Group

    9.3 Ordnance Survey Ireland

    9.4 Disabled Drivers Medical Board of Appeal

    9.5 Special EU Programmes Body

    9.6 Valuation Tribunal

    9.7 Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector

    9.8 Public Services Benchmarking Body

    9.9 Committee for Performance Awards

    9.10 Civil Service Arbitration Board

    9.11 Civil Service Disciplinary Code Appeal Board

    9.12 Independent Mediator for the Civil Service

    9.13 Outside Appointments Board

    9.14 National Treasury Management Agency Advisory Committee

    9.15 National Pensions Reserve Commission

    9.16 State Claims Agency Policy Committee

    9.17 National Development Agency

    9.18 Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland

    9.19 Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority

    9.20 Irish Financial Services Appeals Tribunal

    9.21 Financial Services Ombudsman Council

    9.22 Financial Services Consultative Consumer Panel

    9.23 Financial Services Consultative Industry Panel

    9.24 Investor Compensation Company

    9.25 An Post National Lottery Company

    9.26 Top Levels Appointments Committee

    9.27 Sealuchais Arachais Teoranta

    Department of Foreign Affairs
    10.1 Advisory Board for Irish Aid

    10.2 Development Education Advisory Committee

    10.3 Dion Advisory Committee

    10.4 Fulbright Commission

    10.5 Hunger Task Force

    Department of Health and Children
    11.1 An Bord Altranais – The Nursing Board

    11.2 An Bord Uchtála

    11.3 Board for the Employment of the Blind

    11.4 Children Acts Advisory Board

    11.5 Consultative Council on Hepatitis C

    11.6 Crisis Pregnancy Agency

    11.7 Dental Council

    11.8 Drug Treatment Centre Board

    11.9 Food Safety Authority of Ireland

    11.10 Food Safety Promotion Board

    11.11 Health & Social Care Professionals Council

    11.12 Health Insurance Authority

    11.13 Health Repayment Scheme Appeals Office

    11.14 Health Research Board

    11.15 Health Service Executive

    11.16 HIQA

    11.17 Institute of Public Health

    11.18 Irish Blood Transfusion Service Board

    11.19 Irish Medicines Board

    11.20 Medical Council

    11.21 Mental Health Commission

    11.22 National Cancer Registry

    11.23 National Cancer Screening Services Board

    11.24 National Council for Aging and Older People

    11.25 National Council for the Professional Development of Nursing and Midwifery

    11.26 National Haemophilia Council

    11.27 National Paediatric Hospital Development Board

    11.28 National Social Work Qualifications Board

    11.29 National Treatment Purchase Fund

    11.30 Office for Tobacco Control

    11.31 Opticians Board

    11.32 Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland

    11.33 Postgraduate Medical and Dental Board

    11.34 Pre Hospital Emergency Care Council

    11.35 Women’s Health Council

    11.36 Hospital Trust Board

    11.37 Beaumont Hospital Board

    11.38 Voluntary Health Insurance Board

    11.39 Board of the Adelaide and Meath Hospital

    11.40 Cork University Dental School and Hospital

    11.41 Dublin Dental Hospital Board

    11.42 Leopardstown Park Hospital Board

    11.43 National Maternity Hospital

    11.44 St James’ Hospital Board

    11.45 St Luke’s Hospital Board

    11.46 Advisory Committee for Human Medicine

    11.47 Advisory Committee for Veterinary Medicines

    11.48 Poisons Council

    11.49 Food Safety Consultative Council

    11.50 Irish Expert Body on Fluorides and Health

    11.51 National Children’s Advisory Council

    11.52 Scientific Committee of the Food Safety Authority

    11.53 National Childcare Coordinating Committee

    11.54 Advisory Committee for Medical Devices

    Department of Justice and Law Reform
    12.1 National Consultative Committee on Racism and Inter-Culturalism

    12.2 Judicial Appointments Advisory Board

    12.3 Irish Legal Terms Advisory Committee

    12.4 Committee on Court Practice and Procedure

    12.5 District Court Rules Committee

    12.6 Circuit Court Rules Committee

    12.7 Superior Court Rules Committee

    12.8 Local Registration of Deeds and Title Rules Committee

    12.9 Garda Siochana Complaints Board

    12.10 Remembrance Commission

    12.11 Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal

    12.12 Censorship of Publications Board

    12.13 Censorship of Publications Appeals Board

    12.14 National Disability Authority

    12.15 Office of the Data Protection Commissioner

    12.16 National Property Services Regulatory Authority

    12.17 Legal Aid Board

    12.18 Equality Tribunal

    12.19 Equality Authority

    12.20 Commission for the Support of Victims of Crime

    12.21 Internet Advisory Board

    12.22 Office of Film Censor

    12.23 Censorship of Films Appeal board

    12.24 Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner

    12.25 Refugee Appeals Tribunal

    12.26 Independent Monitoring Committee for Refugee Legal Services

    12.27 Courts Services

    12.28 Private Security Authority

    12.29 Private Security Appeals Board

    12.30 Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains

    12.31 Independent Monitoring Commission

    12.32 Independent Commission on Decommissioning

    12.33 Forensic Science Laboratory

    12.34 Garda Siochana Complaints Appeal Board

    12.35 Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission

    12.36 Garda Siochana Inspectorate

    12.37 Office of the Inspector of Prisons

    12.38 Mental Health Criminal Law Review Board

    12.39 Parole Board

    12.40 Prisons Authority Interim Board

    12.41 Arbour Hill Prison Visiting Committee

    12.42 Castlerea Prison Visiting Committee

    12.43 Cloverhill Prison Visiting Committee

    12.44 Cork Prison Visiting Committee

    12.45 Limerick Prison Visiting Committee

    12.46 Loughan Prison Visiting Committee

    12.47 Midlands Prison Visiting Committee

    12.48 Mountjoy Prison Visiting Committee

    12.49 Portlaoise Prison Visiting Committee

    12.50 St Patrick’s Institution Visiting Committee

    12.51 Shelton Abbey Place of Detention Visiting Committee

    12.52 Training Unit Place of Detention Visiting Committee

    12.53 Wheatfield Prison Visiting Committee

    12.54 State Pathologist’s Office

    12.55 National Crime Council

    12.56 Property Registration Authority

    Department of Social Protection
    13.1 Social Welfare Tribunal

    13.2 Office of the Pensions Ombudsman

    13.3 The Pensions Board

    13.4 Citizens Information Board

    Department of the Taoiseach
    14.1 Irish-American Economics Advisory Board

    14.2 National Statistics Board

    14.3 National Economic and Social Development Office

    14.4 Law Reform Commission

    14.5 National Centre for Partnership and Performance

    14.6 National Economic and Social Council

    14.7 National Economic and Social Forum

    14.8 Ireland Newfoundland Partnership Board

    14.9 National Forum on Europe

    Department of Transport
    15.1 Córas Iompair Éireann

    15.2 Railway Safety Commission

    15.3 Railway Safety Advisory Council

    15.4 Railway Procurement Agency

    15.5 Commission for Taxi Regulation

    15.6 Advisory Council to the Commission for Taxi Regulation

    15.7 Dublin Transport Office

    15.8 Integrated Ticketing Project Board

    15.9 National Roads Authority

    15.10 The Marine Casualty Investigation Board

    15.11 Aer Lingus

    15.12 Commission for Aviation Regulation

    15.13 Irish Aviation Authority

    15.14 Dublin Airport Authority

    15.15 Shannon Airport Authority

    15.16 Cork Airport Authority

    15.17 Dublin Port

    15.18 Cork Port

    15.19 Waterford Port

    15.20 Dun Laoghaire Port

    15.21 New Ross Port

    15.22 Shannon Foynes Port

    15.23 Dundalk Port

    15.24 Drogheda Port

    15.25 Galway Port

    15.26 Wicklow Port

    15.27 Arklow Harbour Commissioners

    15.28 Bantry Bay Harbour Commissioners

    15.29 Baltimore and Skibbereen Harbour Commissioners

    15.30 Kilrush Urban District Council

    15.31 Kinsale Harbour Commissioners

    15.32 River Moy Commissioners

    15.33 Tralee and Fenit Harbour Commissioners

    15.34 Westport Harbour Commissioners

    15.35 Wexford Harbour Commissioners

    15.36 Youghal Urban District Council

    15.37 Medical Bureau of Road Safety

    15.38 Public Transport Partnership Forum

    Office of the Pensions Ombudsman
    Waterways Ireland……………………………………………
    And a partridge in a pear tree…………….

    • Tull McAdoo

      If anybody from Fianna Fail, Fine Gael or labour got you or any of your family a job in any of the above organisations,then you are in a better position than most, to tell us all what its like to have a public service job that was not procured by merit.

      There is a certain commonality between the level of un-affordable nepotism and lack of competencies that exists in Ireland and Greece today that are posing major problems to both countries recoveries…..

      • bonbon

        I still don’t get what the list means. Better to spell it out here.

        • Tony Brogan

          I take it as a list of whar Government is and that no matter who is elected this list will not change.

          Also there is the suggestion: that who ever works in these departments because of political connections did not get the job because of merit but rather because of nepotism; These people have overpaid jobs while others starve and suffer.

          This creates expensive and unaffordable governance.

          • bonbon

            Ah, not the Troika then. Its all homegrown. How charmingly provincial. At Cannibal Cafe democratically everyone gets a chance at the table. It is said about the Greeks, that is is all their fault, Spain, Portugal, Italy (there its the south). And all this at the same time, must be pure coincidence. Its all corruption and nepotism of each case-by-case.

            Sure that’s great now. There is no Euro problem, no financial crash. Nothing to worry about then.

          • Tony Brogan

            Bon bon

            you still show ignorance of what the list means or you could spell it out for yourself.

          • bonbon

            I know exactly what the list means – the poster is afraid to spell out some “implied suggestion”. Romney had that problem too , and now has outsourced to Paul Ryan.

    • cooldude

      Sack the lot

  37. Colin

    “The country becomes a ‘Lootocracy’ – where one section of the population loots the wealth of the other.”
    -The best description so far of where we are now.

    But David, please spell it out, for those who are so blind they do not wish to see. This ‘one section’ is the group of people who say they did not cause this, twas the bankers fault guv’nor. It is the group who say they are being unfairly demonised. It is the group that say we shouldn’t fall for this divide and conquer trick played by our rulers. It is the group who still underperform at work with no penalty, who call in sick most frequently, who get huge golden cash tax free balloon payments on retirement. It is the group who do not need to consider emigrating as they are unfireable – no matter how incompetent they are. Yes, you’ve guessed it boys and girls… it is our local Garda who prefers attending funerals than catching the shyster who robbed your car. Its your local Nurse who takes a mid morning break of 1 hr, enough for 5 cups of tea I reckon. It is your local Teacher who gets 2 months or 3 months paid holidays in the summertime. It is your local friendly postman who has weekends off, and can’t be arsed delivering your mail before 4pm somedays.

    You know there is another large backlog in the passport office now. My money is on the fact that its our teachers who are causing this, apparently they like to be paid in a hard currency but can’t stomach a soft day.

    • bonbon

      Another way to put it is cannibalism, which after all is only a matter of taste.

      The Troika of the Olymp, the Titans, are inducing the mortals to eat each other – the squabbling over tasty bits a sight to behold.

      On the menu today at Cannibal Cafe, teachers, gardai, nurses, chronically ill! Special midday lunch prices!

      Swift’s Gulliver came across the Yahoo’s and the Houyhnhnms (yes, horses do talk) whose every expletive began with “yahoo”. Such noble fine animals, Houyhnhnms, could not be blamed for anything.

      • Colin

        bonbon, you’ll find that the teachers, nurses, and gardai are the ones who are dining, not the ones appearing on the menu. Appearing on the menu is a feast of former construction workers, young graduates, ex Dell workers etc…..

        • bonbon

          At Cannibal Cafe, on Wednesdays they swap customer for Plat du Jour. That way it’s democratic you see.

          Either way the dwindling food supply will sort itself out, no? Prince Phillip will be happy to see the population quickly to sustainable levels. Eire the poster boy again.

          The Houyhnhnms nod in approval.

          • Colin

            Could solve the obesity pandemic at the very least anyway bonbon, and that’s less packets of bonbons on the shelves in the sweetshops too! Luxuries are the first to go.

            Let me know how your wacky wednesday goes next week.

          • bonbon

            Unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible at a Cannibal Cafe Theater near you!

            Meanwhile the banksters gorge on each others loot. Never give pirates the idea there is no gold – there could be a mutiny!

  38. bonbon

    With Greece’s Debt Pile Reaching over EU300 Billion, Opposition Parliament Member Calls for Default

    Aug. 17 (EIRNS)–The Greek government announced that the national government debt pile has reached EU303.53 billion as of June, having increased by EU23.2 billion after being loaded with more debt by the euro bailout fund in March 31.

    Just the previous day, opposition Syriza spokesman Panagiotis Lafazanis said Greece should not shy away from the option of defaulting on its debts. In an interview for Alpha radio, Lafazanis said that “Bankruptcy is not necessarily catastrophic. This is the weapon of the weak when they reach the point of being unable to pay their obligations. We should not describe it as the bogeyman.”

    Lafazanis attacked the government’s claim that it will negotiate an extension of the terms of the bailout agreement by two years. “It will prolong the torture with no prospect,” he said, stressing that austerity is the actual problem. He also predicted major reaction from the parliamentary groups of the government parties against the measures of 11.5 billion euros.

    The ruling New Democracy (ND) party freaked out, accusing Lafazanis of wanting the country to go bankrupt.

    The point is that everyone knows Greece cannot continue pay these debts or implementing the austerity. In answer to ND’s charge, Syriza retorted:

    “New Democracy should not be talking about bankruptcy, since the whole government continues to implement in the harshest way possible the destructive memorandum recipe, driving the country to bankruptcy and the exit from the Eurozone. Mud slinging, slander and misinformation no longer convince anyone.

    The king is naked,” the statement concluded.

    • Adam Byrne

      “Our officials, like everybody else and like every general staff, have some sort of operational plan for any eventuality.”

      Yeah sure, like Enda and his ‘general staff’ do.

    • bonbon

      Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja, whose Social Democratic Party is part of the six-party ruling coalition government. “We have to face openly the possibility of a euro break-up,” Tuomioja told Britain’s DT columnist AEP. “It is not something that anybody–even the [euro-skeptic party] True Finns–are advocating in Finland, let alone the government. But we have to be prepared. Our officials, like everybody else and like every general staff, have some sort of operational plan for any eventuality.”

      Tuomioja “voiced deep suspicion” of the “gang of four” EU insiders, especially ECB President Mario Draghi, for trying to create a fiscal union. “I don’t trust these people,” he said.
      The warnings on the ESM were echoed by Miapetra Kumpula-Natri, chairman of the Finnish Parliament’s Grand Committee on Europe, who said: “Our law passed this summer says the ESM has the same priority as the IM…. Any change would require a new law passed by the whole Parliament, and this would be very difficult because the risks would be much higher.” Kumpula-Natri said Finland can be pushed only so far. “There is a feeling on the street that there has to be a limit. I can’t say whether it is 10% of GDP, or what. It’s not written. But it is obvious that a small country can’t help big countries eternally.”
      —-
      It is murderous to apply the austerity all the while planning for breakup. But that is the way it goes when the insane belief in monetarism grips all, not just those in power. True believers vote for true believers.

  39. michaelcoughlan

    Hi Molly,

    I don’t do conspiracy theories. The answer to your question on civil servants is the same answer to why failed bankers get rehired by new employers on obscene salaries after their respective abject failure. THE BASTARDS IN CHARGE KNOW THEY WILL PROTECT THE STATUS QUO NO MATTER HOW CORRUPT IDIOTIC OR DESTRUCTIVE.

    That is all.

  40. gizzy

    Attended a funeral last week of a man in his early forties with young kids who hanged himself used to work in construction. Another family man early fifties unemployed found hanged last night in the same town.

    People are losing their sense of value and self worth.

    But the powers that be are cold to that. They think it’s take the moral high ground to bring people to court for not paying 100 euros so the county manager can continue to have 50 days holidays a year and earn 150k.

  41. Don’t blame the Euro.

    If Greece left the Euro and got it’s banks to create Drachmas in parallel with debt nothing would change in principal. Still almost every unit of currency would have a corresponding debt.

    Greece could leave the Euro and have its Central Bank create all its Drachmas to be spent into circulation by its Government. It could then have its banks practice banking, as in, its banks could take money from savers and lend it to borrowers rather than create the money for the loan.

    • bonbon

      Greece will and should default. With Glass-Steagall in full force, as Sandy Weill of Citigroup said 2 weeks ago, we can separate synthetic from legitimate debt.

      Synthetic debt will be written off. That simple.

      With Hamiltonian Public Credit Greece can use national banking to reconstruct. There is a Marshall Plan for the Mediterranean already on the table.

      So no Versilles II for anyone ever again.

      Alexander Hamilton’s economics are the basis for Irish economics since Arthur Griffith’s work.

      National Credit for massive internal improvements in cooperation with neighbors similarly inclined is key.

    • bonbon

      Here is a map of the economic development desperately needed for the Med.

      http://www.larouchepub.com/special_report/2012/120607_emergency_program_toc.html

      Transport corridors bring development. Some of these have been blocked by war, crises for over 100 years.

    • bonbon

      To summarize the report :

      Introduction: There Is Life After the Euro!
      An Economic Miracle for Southern Europe and the Mediterranean

      Greece and a Marshall Plan for the Mediterranean Basin

      Spain: The World Land-Bridge’s Bridge to African Development

      The Rebirth of Italy’s Mezzogiorno Means a New Renaissance in Italy

      Africa Pass: Afro-Mediterranean Revolutionary Project

      The Transaqua Project: Beginning of an African Rebirth

      North Africa: From Roudaire’s ‘Inland Sea’ Project to the Blue Revolution

      What Europe Can Learn from Argentina

      A German ‘Economic Miracle’ for Europe and the Entire World

  42. bonbon

    Hey Webmaster, how about reducing the indent and icon placeholders in size and widening the text fields? We end up trying to write vertically in an intense debate, but have no experience with Kanji.

    • cooldude

      How about increasing the sense coming from guys like you.

      • Tony Brogan

        Austrians do not agree with monetarism as far as Iam aware so it is Keynes and Friedman you meant to reference.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetarism

        Not a word on any Austrian economist here in this essay on monetarism. I think you are wrong to continually link ‘Austrians’ with monetarism.
        You are right about M being a deadly poison.

        • bonbon

          “Austrians” talk all the time about currencies of various types. That’s monetarism.

          As with Kant and Adam Smith, a wiki will not indicate what is not there. This is not difficult stuff.

          Missing in Kant is creative reason, missing in Smith is productive forces and mental capital.

          Missing in monetarism are both, the essential ingredients of economics.

          • Tony Brogan

            What you mean when you say Austrians talk about currencies I do not know. Unless it is to condemn monetarism.

            monetarism as I understand it means the application of monetary policy to manipulate the economy on an ongoing basis. The expansion and contraction of the money supply, the raising and lowering of interest rates are included.

            fiscal policy is the other half of interference in the economy by use of taxes, subsidies, tarrifs, and other rules and regulations.

            Basically as I am lead to believe , the Austrians believe such manipulation distorts the economy causing imbalances in capital investment and consumption that are ill matched leading to losses and a faultering economy.

            We have had and still get plenty of this interference. Monetary policy is enacted by central banks and fiscal policy to the point of direct interference and manipulation on a daily basis by government.
            The austrians do not approve of this.

            You are no doubt aware of the Working group on financial markets aka the Plungs Protection team that daily goose the Dow and other markets to stop a collapse or ensure a modest gain. There is no such thing as a free market any longer. It is manipulated by government agencies or their surrogates the large commercial banks.

            JP Morgan for instance carries a short position in the silver market that is higher than several years of world mining output. It is obviously designed to manipulate the market yet regulators can find no wrong. It is bankster policy and government policy.
            HSBC is similar in Gold. They also are respectively the custodians for the largest silver and gold ETF. Conflict of interest is rampant as is corruption.
            The investors in the funds are long while the custodians are short.

            All this is condemmed by Austrian economists. The only thing the Austrians want is a level playing field and that is why PM’s are advocated as being essential as providing this. It is not monetarism, it is the promotion of the use of “honest” money rather than the paper script proposed by yourself which has no intrinsic value and subject to expansion and resulting in hyperinflation at the extreme whose existance must be mandated as fiat currency to have any validity. A proper gold standard does not allow monetarism to happen. It is why it is called honest money. It will not allow the corrupt practices to take place.
            People would be using gold and silver right now if the bankers and politicians were not so threatened that gold and silver as money has been made illegal and even taxed. As usual they are afraid of the light of day and the transparancy created by commodity money. Give the people a choice and see what they prefer.

          • bonbon

            Monetarism is the incredible, insane, hysterical fantasy that economic progress will spring from an inert currency. It is exactly the problem Arthur Griffith identified with Adam Smith – ascribing an “omnipotent” quality to inert capital matter. Smith defined trade as exchange of capital matter, leading to floating currency exchange. This clears the smoke and mirrors of the so-called “fiat” versus “sound” currency.
            This explains the suicidal obsession with the Euro – they genuinely do not understand why Brüning austerity, a monetarist inanity, cannot and does not work. This is why monetarism is a murderous curse, literally killing people.

            Inert metal, silver and gold, do not have an omnipotent quality. Economic recovery simply cannot emmanate from this as FDR well knew. The rich hoarding gold and telling the forgotten 80% that any minute now that gold will recover the economy is a swindle. And people smell it.

          • StephenKenny

            I’m not sure you’ve quite got the argument straight here. The monetarists, and the ‘sound money’ brigade, argue that no one should have control over money.

            Give anyone (politicians, central banks) control over the means of exchange, and they will abuse it to the benefit of themselves. Allow anyone (banks) to take control of the means of exchange, and they will do the same.

            The solution, they say, is to have a means of exchange that no one can control. The amount of above ground gold increases by something like 2% a year, and has done for for centuries. It doesn’t rust, etc etc. So it’s good.

            Of course you’re quite right when you say that a currency doesn’t create wealth, and gold, being a currency, also doesn’t create wealth. A currency is merely a reflection of the productive capacity of a country. If half the population stopped working, and went home to sit on their pile of gold, very soon a loaf of bread (imported from France) would, on average, cost twice what it previously did, whatever the currency. Inflation is perfectly possible with gold as a currency. Gold merely has the virtue of being uncontrollable by politicians and the financial sector.

            Lenen’s approach of simply shooting all the bankers didn’t work, because you still had the politicians.

            The problem that a number of countries have, including the Ireland, US, UK, Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Iceland, is that their currencies indicated a productive capacity that doesn’t exist. This can only have been a result of massive fraud and manipulation by those who control the currency – in this case, the perfect storm of the financial sector and the politicians.

            In my view, the monetarists are right, but only half way. Without a real process to improve the productive capacity of the country, having a ‘sound currency’ is completely irrelevant. Your previously mentioned Marshall Plan, frankly, looks like a bunch of politicians promising that throwing vast amounts of money at the problems will solve them.

            As I’ve been saying, on and off, for years – producing a real wealth creating economy is hard. Very hard.

          • bonbon

            The Marshall Plan worked because Bretton-Woods and Glass-Steagall made a RFC and KfW work. In 10 years Germany built up from absolutely nothing except mental capital. Opposing British plans would guarantee a backwater only.

            The Israeli historian of economics, Prof. Avraham Barkai (born 1921) is correct, when he writes, that a real historic chance did exist to prevent the Nazis from seizing power,

            “if earlier governments, economists and politicians had freed themselves of the chains of outmoded economic and financial principles, and if they had applied anti-cyclical economic policies earlier.”

            Germany had the Friedrich List Society Lautenbach Plan, which was not adopted in 1931.

            We must free ourselves from British monetarism. Hamilton was right, as List showed. Griffith gave us this economics to free ourselves.

          • StephenKenny

            The Marshall Plan worked because the Western European countries had everything in place, except that which could be solved by capital, including: They had almost breathtakingly skilled workforces; a population who’s teamwork was forged through the unspeakable horrors of war; low wealth disparity; very significant social conformity and agreement, including of where their countries should go.

            Today, we have the exact opposite. We have the capital, and nothing else in place.

            You’re a political activist, so you have natural desire to praise and hype up the electorate. I’m just an engineer who sees little but an all-but-useless education system, supported by a sycophantic and chattering media, producing a population of narcissistic, uneducated, consumers, not only proud of their ignorance, but who believe that the economy’s primary engine is the ‘bigger fool’ theory of zero sum trading. In short, a Marshall Plan would be completely useless, just causing another zero sum bubble, to match in size, if not longevity, the property bubble.

            Now, if you were suggesting something akin to (but not the same as) the US National Defense Education Act, then that might be convincing.

          • bonbon

            The only way to understand V.I. Lenin is by socialist economist Rosa Luxemburg’s The Accumulation of Capital. Rosa Luxemburg proved that Lenin, as also the German Social-Democracy of that time, lacked comprehension of the real-life meaning of what is called modern imperialism. Her only rival in competence as a leading economist from among socialists, during her time, was France’s Jaurès.
            As Rosa Luxemburg had explained, and Herbert Feis later, imperialism, is, today, as then, simply a 1970s rebirth of the Anglo-Dutch Liberal tyranny of a global financial system based, on a revived Anglo-Dutch Liberal system of international, essentially usurious loans.

          • bonbon

            I’m not a pessimist, the popular fashion of the moment. True about mental capital lacking after 40 years of brainwashing. But as Carnot and others have shown, only by building up the physical economy is progress possible. It brings education, not the other way around. The TVA started in Tennessee with no literacy, endemic malaria. And in fact we do have people in every Med country with ideas. The real problem is the out-of-control finance, and the monetary obsession.
            We have a plan for a huge development – it is the only plan explicitly dealing with mental capital, progress, credit v. monetary systems, and sovereignty.

          • StephenKenny

            More grand plans, from more politicians, and all we have to do is hand over the currency, the reins of power, and they promise that it will all turn out really well. Trust me.

          • bonbon

            We have a Grand Problem (finance aside). As Friedrich List wrote : “Without interference of national power there is no security, no faith in coined money, in measures and weights, no security for the health of seaports, no security for the commerce at sea by the aid of a navy, no interference for the citizens in foreign seaports and countries by Consuls and Ministers, no titles to land, no patents, no copyright, no canals and railroads, no national road. Industry entirely left to itself, would soon fall to ruin, and a nation letting everything alone would commit suicide.”

            None of this will spontaneously spring wondrously from inert capital matter. Of that you can be absolutely sure. If left to itself you can be absolutely sure of national suicide. There is no guarantee of success implementing the Marshall Plan, but without it you can be absolutely sure of catastrophe.

            First step is Glass-Steagall, breaking up the banks, but only a first acutely necessary preparation.

          • StephenKenny

            The past few hundred years has shown that central planning is good at stopping simple bad things happening, but very poor at making complex things happen.

            Of course all systems need rules, and will always create them. They will then create systems to support them. This exists at a micro level at grows up and out. These are things they need, so they are made to happen. Imposing grand plans is the Soviet approach, leaving a barren, radioactive, landscape, with rusting iron and steel works every few miles.

            Canada needed a trans-continental railway, so a company of interested parties raised funds privately, and created one. The US needed one, so their companies lobbied the government for taxpayer loans, and, at vast cost to the taxpayer, eventually got two.

            The TVA was an essentially agricultural training plan, backed up by rural electrification. There wasn’t much else to it. These things were built, and everything took off. It’s been used by grand design proponents ever since. So we’ve had almost 100 years of catastrophes, destroyed ecosystems, environments, agricultural land, oceans, rivers, and even cities, all frantically quoting ‘TVA’.

            Interfere too much, or too little, or badly, in a system, and it will all go horribly wrong. Another grand plan, which will, I’ve no doubt, create yet another urban proletariat, and the great cycle of centrally planned slaughter will come round again.

            I find fanatical true believers very depressing, be they religious, political, or any other.

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi Stephen

            Lots of good arument below.
            I find it hard to follow bon bon as he spins off on another tangent and quotes all sorts of “experts”.
            It is hard to follow his own reasoning sometimes..

            Two points
            Definition of monetarism needs to be established.
            bon bon–Monetarism is the incredible, insane, hysterical fantasy that economic progress will spring from an inert currency. Well this is an opinion not found elsewhere.

            http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4SKPT_enCA449CA449&q=monetarism+definition

            Monetarism is most often described as a policy where the increase of money supply or the decrease in the money supply is an effective way to moderate and control an economy.
            It may be insane, and it is rejected by the Austrian School as it is the very policy in effect from every central bank at present and has resulted in the current economic catastrophe.
            This type of manipulation is more easily carried out when a fiat paper system of money is being used.
            It is as stephen mentioned very hard to do when subject to the constrants of sound, commodity money.
            So from the point of view of a monetarist gold is to be despised and abhored.

            All money is a catalyst for the exchange of goods and serices and not consumed in the process. Rightly described as a medium of exchange. The value of the money must be trusted before it can be used.

            A disadvantage with paper money is that it can fall rapidly to zero once trust is lost. commodity money can never fall to zero as it has an intrinsic value. e.g. a silver coin used as currency, if defined in weight and purity (this is where the state can assist by guaranteeing the weight and quilty of a coin, although a private company could do the smae thing and operate a mint with honesty and integrity) can always be sold at the world price for its melt value. Currently an ounce of silver on the spot world market is E22.76 and any silver coin containing one troy ounce of silver will sell quickly to a dealer for that price. Infact a silver coin can be used anywhere in the world as money and is readily convertable in to any currency.

            Stephen

            you said, “If half the population stopped working, and went home to sit on their pile of gold, very soon a loaf of bread (imported from France) would, on average, cost twice what it previously did, whatever the currency. Inflation is perfectly possible with gold as a currency.

            You have suggested people sitting on a “pile of gold” and then in the same sentence “whatever the currency”

            With a fixed supply of money in an economy there is always enough money and it does not need adjusting. In fact we have agreed elswhere that manipulating the money supply creates distortions in the economy and mal investment. increases in the money supply are inflationary, and decreases in the money supply create deflation. This is the way a monetarist hopes to control the economy (whether it needs controling or not is another issue)

            Take an economy with a fixed supply of money.
            Take your case where a lot of people save money Or as you say sit on their pile of gold.
            This is called an increase in the demand for money, i.e. people want more of it.
            This results in less money in circulation, and less demand for goods and services from those people.(they reduce spanding)
            Well less money left in circulation means that the money left has to perform in the same economy and so the value of the money still in circulation increases and requires less of it to purchase goods. It would appear to those still spending the money that their money now goes further and prices have dropped and so goods and services have become cheaper and not more expensive as you suggested. In addition the savers are no longer consuming as much and so there is less demand which will also tend to lower prices.
            So the savers actually create the appearance of deflation and not inflation.

            This is how gold and silver money work.

            The savers now seeing that goods and services appear cheaper decide to spend some of their savings and so more money comes back into circulation and demand increases for the goods and services. It results in money being less valuable and the price of goods appearing to rise.

            thus the money in circulation expands and contracts according to demand and there is always just enough and not too much.

            The money must be nominated in ounces (weight) and not a fixed value denominated in a currency.

            It does not work as well with money of a fixed denomination as the value of the money cannot rise and fall depending on the demand for money.

            Using the above example od the loaf of bread from France. It would not cost more but less as the value of the currency would have risen and less of the money needed to by the bread, the more other people saved.

          • Tony Brogan

            One other point about the current monetarism.

            It is neither insane or random in its application.
            The users of the policy are rational and deliberately use it as policy fully aware what the results will be.
            It is a deliberate policy to extort the wealth of the people in transfer to the operators of the central banking system, the bankers themselves.

            It was not a mistake or a ramdom act that the first things the “rebels’ in Libya did was to form a central bank. It ensures the rape and pillage of Libya and the seizure of their 132 tonnes of gold.

            First things first.
            We must be rid of the central banking system. all else is futile without that.

      • bonbon

        Lighten up, you have no monopoly on sense. Just try me.

  43. martino

    I’m sorry to hear about your friends, but really, anybody who kills themselves solely because of money problems is stupid.

  44. Harper66

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/colm-mccarthy-state-should-challenge-legality-of-ecbs-actions-3203452.html

    State should challenge legality of ECB’s actions
    Central bank needs overhaul and was acting outside its mandate when it forced unsecured debts on Ireland, writes Colm McCarthy

    Its seems offical Ireland is finally willing to acknowledge the devestating role assuming private banking debt had on the Irish sovereign.

    The question now is do have even one politician who has the courage to act on McCarthys advice?

    • bonbon

      TD PRINGLE’S DELIGHT AT EUROPEAN COURT DATE

      Thomas Pringle TD has welcomed the Court of Justice of the EU’s (CJEU) announcement of October 23rd as the date for an oral hearing regarding the questions referred to it from his recent case in the Supreme Court.

      Speaking on the matter Aug 15, the Independent TD for Donegal South West stated: “I welcome the decision of the CJEU to use the accelerated procedure available to it to allow for an oral hearing in October. This shows that the Court recognises the urgency of this matter and its upmost importance to all EU states involved, including Ireland.”

      “We have seen how there is a new legal challenge being taken in Germany on the ESM. This is another example of the continuing and growing scepticism of this fund across Europe and Ireland, and I look forward to the outcome of the oral hearing in Luxembourg.”

      “It’s high time that we brought democracy and transparency to Europe — the fight’s not over yet,” stated Pringle.

      http://www.donegaldaily.com/2012/08/15/td-pringles-delight-at-european-court-date/

    • bonbon

      So we have 2 charges, against the ECB and the ESM. Add that to the ferment in Germany.

    • Tony Brogan

      Despite the belated recognition of the actions of the ECB there is no acknowledgement of the fact that the central banks are agents of the bankers themselves and not of the citizens of the country.
      It should be no suprise that the banks act the way they do. They act to protect their shareholders the banks themselves. The fox is guarding the henhouse. In fact the fox built the henhouse and invited the chickens in to roost!!

      All countries need to remove the central banking system and revert to treasury for monetary policy if such policy is indeed a requirement at all.

  45. Harper66

    “This Sunday, Aug 19th 2012, we’ll meet again at the Garden of Remembrance, 11.30am, in solidarity with the march back home in Ballyhea and Charleville, and we’ll march again, at noon, to Croke Park.”

    http://thechatteringmagpie14.blogspot.ie/

  46. bonbon

    Another Plan B To Save the Euro: “B” Stands for “Bullshit”

    Aug. 18 (EIRNS) — The {Süddeutsche Zeitung} has a leak according to which EU governments are discussing a “Plan B” which contemplates an orderly exit of Greece from the Eurozone. This is what the {Economist} does not want to have, and instead called for another “Plan B,” i.e., a universal bailout and mutualization of debt.

    According to the {SZ}, no definite plan has been laid out, because much depends on what the German Constitutional Court will say on the ESM, and on what the Troika will say on Greece. If the latter does not recommend a further payment to Athens in September, Greece might be left with the only option of returning to the drachma.

    Thus, the “Plan B” being discussed among EU governments is aimed at “strengthening” the remaining part of the Eurozone. This would include expanding financial aid to Ireland and Portugal, ESM loans plus ECB support to Spain and Italy, as well as concrete steps towards a banking union and EU governance. In other words, a “Plan Bullshit.”

    Bullshit, because the underlying paradigm is, “according to {SZ} information, the consideration that single {measures undertaken so far have improved the situation}, but they have not re-established citizens’ and markets’ confidence in the euro” (emphasis added). In other words, Brüning policies (which, contrary to the SZ, do {not} work) continue to be endorsed.

    Any Plan B that does not contemplate a Glass Steagall standard, in order to protect productive categories of debt and dumping the rest, is not going to work. A Plan B that aims at rescuing the euro instead of national economies is an insane proposition.

    • Tony Brogan

      i doubt if any exit from the euro will be willingly contenplated. whatever it takes to bind the nations together in subjucation to the ECb and their controlers is what will occur. Individual liberty eroded and state sovereignty evaporating.

      I am reminded of a couple of pithy comments.

      “We can not see the forest for the trees”

      From the donut dunkers club–
      “As you go through life brother,
      Whatever be your goal
      keep your eye on the donut
      and not on the hole”.

      We debate and discuss the little issues and not the overall larger picture.
      My father used to say that the Irish are great fighters but too often scrap against each other instead of uniting against the common enemy.

      In my opinion we are looking at all the evil manifestations of a global collective. We (all peoples) are inexorably being hauled in, bound up, swallowed and digested by the vampire squid of one world government. All that will be left are the indigestable bones of the people spit out on the side.

      The principal tool for this is the central banking system. we must revert to a nation state with a sound money system with a much less corruptable money system than that in place at the moment.

      A corruptable money leads to a corrupted society which leads to a total disruption of the life of the citizens as servitudinal financial slaves. Welcome to the feudal financial system.

      Honest money is the preserve of a free, prosperous society. All other money is the route to slavery. Only after the adoption of a sound money system can the nation state prosper. First things first.

      Fire the central bankers.
      Leave the Euro
      Repudiate all odious debt.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odious_debt
      Establish a national currency based on issuance of currency by treasury without incurring debt or interest.
      Fund government through this new currency.
      People can still use Euros if they wish.
      Provide for a parallel PM coin system of money that over 10-20 years will expand and replace the unbacked paper to a system that is totally backed by gold and silver.
      Establish a plan to reduce government cost to a maximum of 35% of GDP of all dues fees and taxes.

      All government agency budgets to be frozen immediately.

      All wages in the civil service and government agencies to be fixed to earnings in the private sector. A wage freeze will go into effect until that is accomplished.
      Same for elected representatives.
      Remove all direct subsidies for all enterprises and occupations
      All regulations to be reviewed and rewritten in laymans language and removed if irrelevent. (Especially those written by eurozone foreign bureaucrats.)
      Reduce income taxes to zero (over time) as they were before WW1
      Remove capital gains taxes. Tax consumption and not savings and production, (The VAT will not apply to exports to retain competitiveness with other countries.)

      BUT NOTHING WORKS UNTIL THE CENTRAL BANKING SYSTEM OF DEBT AND USURY IS DISMANTLED AND DESTROYED.

      • bonbon

        We disagree on this Austrian recipe. We disagree on the cause and solution and who is to implement. We disagree on the urgent reconstruction required, how it is to be financed, and the nature of capital itself.

        I agree with Irish founder Arthur Griffith’s wonderful exposition of German Economist Friedrich List and American economist Alexander Hamilton, and Irish economist Matthew Carey.

        So creatively reasoning, not following a recipe, Glass-Steagall immediately, as even Sandy Weill of Citi (who of course remains a banker) loudly said it does not work without Glass-Steagall.
        Then repudiate synthetic debt, honor public debt with huge reconstruction programs, especially the Arctic Route Shannon Deep Harbor, and a link into the Eurasian Landbridge. None of this is left to “spontaneous happenings”, but identified as the future.
        For the Med, a Marshall Plan with transport corridors to Africa, also not left to “unknowable processes”.

        I repudiate Paul Ryan’s recipe for disaster, even more extreme than Mitt, or Ron.

        • Tony Brogan

          The invasions of the Middle east countries was all planned out more than 20 years ago and much as i did not believe it 20 years ago it happened.

          so are these schemes you outline already planned and are going to happen whether the locals like it or not, just the same way.

          I read that the US has armed or is arming all police forces, border guard, homeland secuity tec, with billions of rounds of hollow point (dum dum ) bullets. Some cities I read are armed with personel carriers, latest in bullet proof jackets, wall piercing shells, attack helicoptors etc. combat arms.

          Posse commitas is repealed, habeas corpus suspended, war on terror covers the whole world including the continental US, apprehension without trial, no rights , indefinate suspension.

          It will not be hard to get mega projects accomplished with those kind of laws in place.

        • bonbon

          An Austrian twist on things. Obama, by name signed NDAA, Bush by name the Homeland Security. Both did the biggest bailouts in history. Nothing to with anything except preserving the British Empire, with thermonuclear war with Russia.
          Now some in Britain, calling for Glass-Steagall on July-04 realize no-one can survive an 60min thermonuclear exchange. Not Britain.

          The Great Game cannot continue.

          So the Great Financial system implodes, rapidly.

          Hence the incredible Syrian massacres. Still China and Russia will not accept this.

          We are witnessing the end of a long imperial unfolding. It does not want to go quietly, so lets split their banks up!

          • Tony Brogan

            nothing but larouche from you and your programed mind. Brain washed to the point of constant repetition.Austrian this and that. Ill defined monetarism. Britain has feck all to do with your british empire remnants you refer to.
            Call it what it really is. a German inspired banking system started because a Dutchman became the nominal crown of england..
            This is a bankers affliction forced on the people. . Not the empire of a country.
            \The control of the world by the moneyed elites.Splitting a few banks will solve nothing. they still operate and will in the future.

            central banking is the main tool. get rid of it and Glass Steagall is redundant.
            Douche LaRouche

      • bonbon

        And for the USA/Canada/Mexico, the NAWAPA XXI, the greatest water management program in the history of mankind. With this will change the Biosphere, weather all along the West, greening the Great American Desert, solving the water table problem of the Midwest.

        Then, you ain’t seen nothing yet!

        All of this the Austrian School intends to block with whatever argument. This identifies their feudal reactionary outlook.

        • Tony Brogan

          I do not think it is blocked by Austrian thinking or by recipe followed. The description of a feudal reactionary outlook does not appear in anything I have read. In any event putting these things in little boxes is counter productive. references to inumerable people of the past is just that , in the past. It is a distraction from the central discussion. It is trying to prove the weight of an argument by saying that’s what “John Smith” said so I must be right.
          One the one hand you proclaim for the nation state and on the next an international project that runs roughshod of a sovereign state.
          Talk to a western Canadian about water and many will say that when the americans want it they will just come and take it.
          That’s a bit how I feel about your mega projects whether or not the proposal has merit itself.
          The Enbridge pipelines proposal from Alberta to the west coast is running into all sorts of objections from disparate people.Right or wrong, they need to be hears.

          how do you propose to get the agreement of the nation states for your proposals or are they enforced by an international authority?

          Do you think it a good idea to change the biospere and the climate all along the west coast?
          Many people think that the US has wasted its water resources and why should the waste ours as well/

          Flooding the rocky mountain trench would change the climate all right as well as the water courses for the Mackensie River, The Peace river, The North Saskatchewan and the South Sascatchewan rivers and the Fraser river before doing anything for the Columbia river itself. This is affecting the Yukon and British columbia totally and most of Alberta too.
          The Fraser has a huge watershed as well as a major influence on the coast and the Salmon fishery. The disruption to the environment would be massive.
          So if the americans want it do they just take it?

          Is this your idea?

        • bonbon

          The Arctic Runoff, nobody takes right now. Diverting it south really green the desert, as with the Congo to Chad, and the Arctic to Aral, and China’s Gobi greening, are all conscious reasoned interventions into the biosphere. Anghor Wat was also.

          This is physical economy, animals wait for rain and mostly die. We move rivers, we are different.

          The only resistance to such upshifts is the greenie movement, the other side of the feudal coin.

          • Tony Brogan

            What do you mean by arctic run off. all the rivers are Candian based. The Yukon goes to Alaska.

            The longer term results of irrigation of deserts is to create an Alkaline soil useless for agriculture. It is what has already happened in california.

          • bonbon

            Arctic Runoff, is fresh water flowing into the Arctic from various rivers. Lost useful water. Nature over millions of years carved these geological trenches. We in 25 years can re-reroute that useful water, generating immense power, and technological and engineering feats on the way. In other words we operate much faster than geologic epochs. That us humans!

            With scientific precision, as Vernadsky showed, the Noosphere time is much different than Biospheric and Geologic time. The Biosphere modified theentire planet in a blink compared to the previous epoch. We must now do the Biosphere a big favor and green its deserts – it is waiting and seems to not manage this itself. We have the same desert area as the entire surface of Mars, right here needing water. And the water exists in abundance.

            With this in mind, the required Credit System of Hamilton is the only way to go.

          • Tony Brogan

            Yes and it is all Canadian water and not included in the NAFTA. Who said it is wasted water. There are complete environmental systems in place to be radically changed by starving them of the water they are used to. So you change the salinity of the arctic ocean so even less of it freezes. What will this do to the northern or world climate. Nobody knows but many will care.

            how will you demand that Canada allow vast swaths of territory be effectively ceeded to US interests.

            You are as much of a statist or internationalist as the bankers. you want one world government but for your interests, the general welfare. That is a communistic solution. Or the three Musketeers, All for one and one for all.
            next you will have us all working for nothing and all earnings donated to government to alleviate the problems with the shortfall in the budget.

            Why don’t you suggest that the US pump out the great lake system. Lots of water on there on their own side of the border. see how much support there is for that one. Again it involves lots of
            canadian water
            Lowering the level of the lakes would rid us of that useless tourist trap, Niagara Falls.

            In addition thousands of square miles of arable land would be exposed rather than destroyed in Canada. A double coup. Desert land greens and submerged land now dry and productive. A few cities would be high and dry but nothing that a long pier and a railway system could not fix. But what is in it for Canada?

            Why not harpoon a few Ice bergs in the arctic ocean and load on to cargo ships to transport all over the world. If enough ice was removed you would have your Northern arctic route from Asia. I see excavators working 24/7/365 and a fleet of fresh water vessels. Beats oil tankers on the loose. Of course no ice in the arctic will lead to a boom in oil and gas exploration

            If you want any more ideas I’m sure, given the right stimulus, I can come up with a few more.

            Oh I forgot, I am lead to believe that atmospheric seeding of certain metals can produce rain wherever. Why is that not used to make a desert green. add a little fertilizer at the same time and the rains would cause prolific growth. Oh yes and something to add is a little acidity so the lands PH values are kept between 5.5 and 6.5. Canadian Potash is lying in the ground useless but makes good root growth fertilizer.

            do you have a plan to ship that out. Oops the Chinese are already buying it so it will cost.

            Now if you want to buy Canadian water and the Canadian land and the vast sums paid could be invested to provide every canadian an income for life then there might be more support for the grand plan

            At the present time the site C dam on the Peace river is stalled because it destroys a whole valley and that just for hydro power and the water continues on.
            The estuary of the Peace in Lake Athabaska dried up because of the Williston lake reservoir and WAC Bennet dam causing a drying up of the wetlands and disturbing the migration anf many bird species. So another dam and reservoir causes more environmental problems.

            Williston lake already changed the local climate. It is now wetter in the summer and some of the fine lands settled in the late 1920′s is not a suitable for growing the hard wheat it used to. Oh and the gas processing plant at tailor flats now sends up thermals that block the thunder storms that travelled down the Peace river there and now they jump accross to the Beaton river. Not a lot but 5-10miles. It does not bother you if you do not live there!!

            To get your project approved will require the invasion of Canada by an international force acting for the common good, of course, of mankind.

            Not my opinion but the studied ractions of Canadians to such proposals. They are rightly concerned at US motives having been invaded 3 times in the last 250 years, each time unsucessfully which is why Canada is still Canada.

          • bonbon

            You sound like a Kremlin operative from the 1970′ – quite amusing. NAWAPA has already been discussed in detail. As usual as with Obama it depends on government committed to the General welfare of each sovereign state.
            It is well known what benefits will result. The Arctic is now the main development area, and China sailed its frst Icebreaker through to Iceland. A very nice report is available. Her Majesty of course succeeded in ordering He Dominion Canada to close off the entire Arctic region for typically Imperial reasons. But Canada has a republican history too.

            So without sounding like someone in the “bunker”, one must accept that we intervene in the Biosphere.
            As regards water, animals wait for rain, are repeatedly exterminated by drought. Humans move water – we have been doing this for millenia. Now we can move, pump, and extract energy from water, vastly increasing the food potential. After all we are from this planet, its biosphere made it possible for us to exist, and we return the favor, big time.

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