July 12, 2012

Since the summit, it's the Germans against the rest

Posted in Irish Independent · 192 comments ·
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First off, however it happened, the Government should be applauded on keeping Irish concerns on the EU’s agenda. Clearly, the Italians and the Spanish did the heavy lifting for us. Had the Spanish and Italians not been in serious trouble, the Germans couldn’t have cared less about us. But a deal is a deal and one on debt sharing for Irish bank debt is a huge result. It might seem premature to talk of “results” but now we have a great chance to reduce our odious debt burden.

The EU — which is all over the shop right now — needs some class of victory for a set of policies that are falling apart. So it might not be so unusual that it has grafted Irish concerns onto the greater Italian and Spanish dilemmas. In addition, given the ECB’s role in bullying a bust Irish State into paying unsecured bondholders in October 2010, Mario Draghi, the new boss, might be trying to clean the slate.

So this is all good, but one thing is clear: the eurozone is in serious trouble and whether it survives is still 50/50. The Italian and Spanish governments are now being charged four times more than Germany to borrow. This can’t go on for very long. It makes a mockery of the term monetary union. It is, in fact, an exercise in monetary apartheid, where one set of economic citizens is treated totally differently to another. Quite apart from the ludicrousness of the situation, the present penal interest rates on the periphery versus the historically low rates in the core will ultimately make the recession worse all over the eurozone.

All this would be problematic enough, if it wasn’t for the fact that the rest of the world is also slowing down rapidly.

We are witnessing a rapid slowdown in China while the American recovery is fading away. This will be the background noise to the continued crisis in Europe.

Let’s look at each in turn. But let’s go to China first. The Chinese Central Bank has slashed rates twice in a month. Is this a sign of politburo panic?

Yes, it is — and the key is political legitimacy as much as economic vibrancy. The China investment boom is faltering but politically, economic growth and the Communist Party are now umbilically linked. Since it dropped the Maoist carry-on, the only legitimacy the party has is growth. “Prosperity, not equality for all” is the slogan. Recession is not an option. If they don’t deliver success, they are toast. But cutting interest rates won’t help because when the problem is too much capacity, building yet more only makes the problem worse. Chinese manufacturing has just seen its eighth successive monthly decline.

The markets are pricing this in with the continuing gold sell-off and oil is moving towards $80 a barrel for the first time in eight months.

At the same time, the US employment recovery — essential for Obama’s re-election prospects — is fading away. The US only created 80,000 jobs last month. The natural growth of the labour force each month is — or should be — 125,000.

Brookings Institution economists say that if the economy adds about 208,000 jobs per month (the average monthly rate for the best year of job creation in the 2000s), then it will take until June 2020 — or eight years — to close the jobs gap. This gap is the number of jobs that the US economy must create to return to pre-recession employment levels — while also absorbing the people who enter the labour force each month.

This is a big ask.

Even if the Federal Reserve cuts, what can cuts in nominal rates do when real rates are already negative? Recent US data is awful. Average earnings — 0.2pc, retail sales — 0.2pc, industrial production — 0.1pc, housing starts — 4.8pc, consumer confidence — 5.5pc and car sales — 4.5pc. The much-hyped recovery is evaporating

After the euphoria of the EU summit, Spanish yields are now close to 7pc again.

Following a phoney war in Europe, the real one begins. After the summit it’s Germany against the rest. Either the Germans pay for everyone, or the whole thing falls apart.

Without systematically looting German savings, Spain and Italy have no chance of financing themselves in the months ahead. Growth is close to zero while yields are at 7pc. Next year, Italy must refinance existing debts to the tune of 29pc of its GDP.

The past week has seen all sorts of dissent coming out of Germany. Think about it from the German point of view.

Even if they paid for everything now, prompting the biggest bull market in Spanish and Italian bond markets in years and a massive bear market in Germany’s bond market, it still wouldn’t solve the core of the competitiveness problem.

By backstopping Italian debts now with German money, Italy is incentivised to borrow more, not less.

The reaction in Germany to the summit has been uniformly negative. I was in Mainz, in Germany, last week and the receptionist in the hotel laughed in dismay when I mentioned the summit.

For Chancellor Merkel, looking for the receptionist vote, a new policy of putting German savers first might make her isolated in Europe, but she would be very popular at home. She is a politician who wants to be re-elected next year, so which way do you think she will jump?

France, though unaffected right now, is actually the weak link. It pretends to be a slightly shabby version of Germany, but the French banking system is very fragile. Its manufacturing recorded its biggest monthly decline last year and runs a large current account deficit. While it may throw political shapes, it is economically weak.

If French yields rise, Germany must choose: does she risk everything for France?

The average German — like the receptionist in Mainz — will say “nein danke”, but politicians and strategists deep inside the German establishment, wedded to the central pillars of EU integration, will say “oui”. The discussion will move to the compromise. German politicians will realise they can only sell the deal to save France by abandoning Italy and Spain.

For a new way of looking at global economic trends, look at Punk Economics 5 on YouTube.


  1. Adam Byrne

    subscribe.

  2. Euro = CO2

    Charlemagne Empire ( Germany and France ) + Osterreich (Austria ) and the 2 Benelux Countries

  3. straboe1

    Germany has a real dilemma, does it try to save the Euro, but lose the opportunity to push for a more politically tighter Europe? Angela and the German establishment will have real difficulty resolving this problem, especially as Angela needs to be re-elected next year. I’m sure the planners in Germany are examining every possibility to resolve this predicament. We need to be prepared for any eventuality, but will we?

    • Adam Byrne

      No we won’t. We never are. We don’t know how to be. We will go with the flow like dead fish.

      • Dorothy Jones

        Oh for Heaven’s sake Adam, put your head up a little and see the really good efforts that are being made by individuals here…not pols ok? Many people are ‘making a go of it’ here in Ireland in the face of adversity. Not because there is support or because conditions are good; but in spite of it. Don’t tar all with the same brush; that just simply is not fair….or…more to the point…logical.

        • Adam Byrne

          Well I was referring to the politicians in this comment, is that what you mean by ‘pols’ Dorothy?

          • Dorothy Jones

            Soory Adam if I read your comment incorrectly: I meant that the ‘pols’ politicians are bloody useless. Think we are ‘ad idem’ on that one? A lot of good ‘stuff’ is happening though at the same time by people soldiering on. Very difficult conditions for survival though…..
            Just look at the risible job our overpaid ‘media’ is doing for example. Then look at the REAL Almanac NAMA wine lake….run without any profit. Now Morgan Kelly is on record as saying that the blog is the best source wrt the Irish Economy which exists.
            Max Keiser does an excellent job in his pieces of putting the ‘correct camera lens’ on the Irish predicament.
            I think you know what I mean?

          • Adam Byrne

            Yes of course Dorothy.

          • Dorothy Jones

            Danke Adam; mean well y’know. Constantin on Geece/Cyprus:
            http://maxkeiser.com/2012/06/23/kr305-keiser-report-feta-cheese-trap/
            Hope all good.

          • Adam Byrne

            I watched that last one, well the first half with Stacey Herbert. It’s a while since I watched Max. They are dead right about Bob Diamond and his robber baron mates but nothing will ever be done about them. Each man must plough his own furrow as far as I can see.

        • Give him a break. Positive thinking is way over rated

        • David opened by waffling that the government should be applauded. I can’t think clearly for all the clapping. People are having street parties in this small cul de sac in Sligo Town this warm eve and it will be talked about for years

          Wheest ya all. That rings a bell. I, you, Adam and many others are not in the mood for applauding ANY government. This is about the most conservative comment a person could ever make and such language will crank up the level despair in anyone who sometimes feels we are back in 1950s Ireland

          Of course we can all avail of the generously prescribed valium the docs are cashing in on these days. Wink wink cha ching. Money, It’s A Gas

          Maybe he thinks we are children in 1950s Ballynowhere who can be told to be quiet as the nice priest comes in to talk to the class haw haw haw. I feel a shiver at the thought

          Be nice now Dorothy (even if your life is hell). It’s the same bullshit Irish style. Irish people seem to be incapable of complete honesty. It’s like they have no emotional intelligence and are underdeveloped in dealing with adult life. They prefer to bitch and snipe and tear each others eyeballs out and parade them to a cheering crowd. I was in Ballymote the other day. Jees I couldn’t wait to get out. There is a pub there nicknamed ‘The Zoo’. Savages I tell ye and I thought Larkhall was full of knuckledraggers!

          As switched on citizens trying to build a credible online debating forum on economic and political matters I am not in the business of applauding governments, or ‘regimes’ as they are known in the unwest

          We all know that the politicians and the media are useless. We keep saying it. The Irish shelf in Eason promised breathtaking exposes on Irish life but it is all crap. They are just cashing in. Ask this : most info that is flammable is censored. If these guys don’t have the info them they are chancers winging it and cashing in. Simple. You would never get to the bottom of it with a very long spoon

          Does anyone believe that politicians and media celebs in Ireland are drug free and as clean as the media presents them. When was the last time there was a Sunday World 4 page expose of a gay politician or overweight 40 something madam in the public eye who has been moonlighting as a dominatrix

          There are all reasonable question and I put them to house haw haw haw

          Maybe we need to get back to basics and broadcast from the rooftops of Ireland exactly why they are useless

          The size of their paychecks is completely irrelevant to me right now. I want to know about their integrity and motivations because I believe most of them are intellectually screwed by either there own egos or an irrational base instinct for survival at the animal level. Privileged yet operating at the bottom of the triangle of human needs in a world that through the glass many posters will agree is surely upside down. Maybe they are all insane?

          The O’Brien media empire is THE media. Scan the Independent home page and your will curl at the stench. Search the archives for matters of corruption and you will draw a blank. I’ve not tried it but I bet there is very little in there on O’Brien’s activities

          Morgan Kelly is behind the times on the influence of this blog. It was pointed out before on several occasions by a certain someone. You have not been listening

          • Adam Byrne

            Gene Kerrigan usually pulls no punches on a Sunday as he tears into the useless government/s of the day. He certainly says what he thinks, even if he works for the Independent. Or is this just part of the game? I wouldn’t know – I haven’t been here long enough to know the media tactics and personalities. What does everyone else think?

          • It is a phoney game Adam that ensures that the Irish establishment will win at all costs like have been doing since 1922. Since Sept 2008 they have been ordered from high above to ensure that all the chaps are on board and that anyone who is not ‘on the level’ to use a masonic term, is silenced and eliminated. It is the eliminated who I want to speak out for. Fuck the establishment. They are shitebags and as Keiser keeps reminding us they are getting away with murder and getting even more brazen and arrogant

            Yet the Indo wants to talk about Tom Cruise. FGS people. Why anyone should seriously take the word of someone who would be associated with such a rag leaves me breathless. Kerrigan is a fine wordsmith (on occasion) but in my opinion he is soiled for taking O’Brien’s shilling. If he was really serious he’d leave and start his own online and printed magazine. Anyway there are better writers on here in the making. The Gene Genie. Life On Mars was a great drama

            It is as plain as on the noses on our faces. The media live on a monthly paycheck and extra curricular affairs. Flat caps and bottles of stout in smoky snooker dives. Decent people like you and me are lured (le – uwered in BBC speak) and seduced into their offerings but the simple fact of life is that Ireland is full of ultra conservative media (RTE and the papers) and their military wing that appears in the red top media (TV3) with their brand of hysteria and puerile trivia. The Irish media is like Ballykiss angel yet you all swallow it. FFS man

            Maybe you ought to follow your instinct like all good people should and try to love the world despite all it’s ugliness. You are a good guy and I know you will find your home in the Carribean when you have saved enough. Lisbon will do me for now

          • Rory

            Hey Paul,
            thanks for the rant. Here’s one of mine.
            I have given up on irish meeja. As you said, they are all peddling the same neo-liberal ideology and the same insiders gain every time. O’Brien makes me puke, hardline on newstalk, softline on todayfm, and this fkr got where he is from talking to Lowry. Gotta love this country. Yet if u look at any other country it is the same shite. We only learn about it later (england & usa we learn about the same day). Helmut Kohl & Francois Mitterand created the Maastricht treaty. So now the german public have to pay for the profligacy of the german banks because of the actions of their most royally dubious of politicians. Well, that’s my take anyway. WTF.

          • Rory and Adam

            I think we see eye to eye on a lot of things.
            Thanks for the feedback.

  4. Lord Jimbo

    German financial institutions, once badly exposed to substantial losses did better than expected; Merkel would seem to have delivered for them, justifying her role. The German economy remains robust, record low unemployment although some say this masks deeper problems which may yet emerge.

    Several heavily indebted countries have made drastic cuts via austerity budgets (Spain is currently going through it ), the benefits of a welfare state are being rolled back to the satisfaction of the neoliberals.

    The Germans will get the tighter fiscal and political union they seek with Berlin in the driving seat. Some kind of a deal will be cut with Ireland and the rest to bring some stability to the Eurozone, the euro as a currency will be maintained in Greece and elsewhere.

    The big losers in all this have been working people and the poor who have had to take a disproportionate lash for the sins of others but then that is the way elites work, their wealth and power built on the backs of others. I wouldn’t be one for opening champagne bottles or celebrating the ‘achievements’ of central governments not when reports indicate a 7% rise in suicide directly attributed to this crushing recession, this game always had to play out, we are now in stage III, resolution to suit those in power now that populations have been sufficiently terrorised and bullied.

    The political pantomime will continue, Merkel may go the way of Sarkozy and other European leaders while big money maintains its dominance behind the pretence of a democracy while the beast of the market has had its fill in one of the most scandalous periods in modern history for working people, the unemployed and disadvantaged.

  5. michaelcoughlan

    Where are people parking money if sovereign debt is dodgy and currency is dodgy and gold is dropping? Is it oil commodities? It’s a very important question for me because shortly I will have a few bob to protect and I really feel we are in the end game now. Please help David. I can’t understand why gold is dropping. I presume investors need some sort of return and will go for us of german bonds in the short term? Please someone respond.

    • cooldude

      Hi Michael, the fact is gold is not dropping is not due to market forces but because it is being manipulated lower by the banking elites who are trying to create a deflationary panic in order to institute some serious global digital money creation. They know they are in deep sheizer and the only “tool” they have left is to digitally create trillions of new currency units across the globe. They cannot do this with a high gold price so they have been constantly manipulating the price in the last few months to try and create an impression that deflation is the “big problem” and that another bout of currency creation on a global scale is necessary. They do this through the paper comex market which is leveraged 100-1 paper to physical. They sell short vast amounts of gold to deliberately drop the price in the paper markets. When this is done you get massive physical buying from the East, especially China, and the yo-yo in price continues. What is actually happening is a vast transfer of gold from the West to the East at very low prices. When the massive global printing is announced the price of gold will take off like a scalded cat but most ordinary retail purchasers who don’t understand what is happening will have missed the boat. Then they will start the “gold is a bubble” nonsense to discourage you from buying at the new higher prices. Have a look at the ten year chart for gold and you will see this process repeating itself time and again as they set the scene for excessive currency creation. To give you some idea of what the real market value of gold would be without all this manipulation if we used the criterea of the Bretton Woods agreement of 1943 (they just divided the the global money supply by the amount of central bank gold) the current price would be in excess of $10,000. This manipulation is starting to get attention in the mainstream media in the wake of the “liebor” scandal. Here is a recent article in the Telegraph exploring these very issues
      http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/thomaspascoe/100018574/the-price-of-gold-has-been-manipulated-this-is-more-scandalous-than-libor/

      • Tony Brogan

        I echo that Cooldude.

        Now is a buying opportunity to protect savings from erosion. Gold is not a short term investment but a long term solution.

        To get a better understanding one has to leave the mainstream economic opinion such as DMW and go to
        http://www.gata.org and study the posts.This is a free site open for donation if you wish.

        Then to
        http://www.lemetropolecafe.com and use the 2 week free access to study the essays by numerous writers and the findings of the gold manipulation scandle over the last 12 years. Then pay for the best subscription on the net re the economy.

        Despite the manipulation the price has risen in fiat money terms all over the world as the physical demand overpowers the paper pushers.
        The demand is even greater today for the physical and central banks have turned net buyers. China and India have a gold culture and continue to buy. The big money is quietly moving to buy gold.

        Silver is in greater manipulation than gold and in much shorter supply. The stockpiles of silver are gone to industrial use which continues today.

        For an individual to protect themselves it is to buy land to feed ones self, silver for day to day currency and gold to preserve assets.

        Don’t ask for Help on this from DMW as he does not believe in gold. He is a mainstream economist on that front.
        Here is a terrific essay on the best ways to invest in gold and the pitfalls to avoid.
        http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/james-hickling/guide-to-buying-gold.html?gmrefcode=gata
        Read it all 3 times to absorb.

        All the discussion on the Euro is froth as the system and world finances are bust beyond repair. Nothing financial will survive in its present form. All proposals for a solution are nothing more than a ploy to rob the citizens of the world of their remaining assets as they stand like rabbits frozen in the headlights. They see the light but are dazzled and frozen in fear. Run to gold right now and protect yourself.

        All bank failures to date have dumped the losses on the taxpayers and stolen funds from allocated accounts with impunity.

      • coldblow

        Cooldude

        http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/07/03/journalists-bonds-are-not-bills-bills-are-not-bonds/

        See comment from Grumpy 3 July 8.20pm who seems to agree with you insofar as deflation would be required before inflation can be sold politically.

    • stevenally

      Spread it around. Don’t put all your eggs in the gold basket for example. Get dollar, swiss franc bank accounts, nothing wrong with the right kind of cash. Buy a bit of property. Only buy things that seem cheap to you. Gold doesn’t look cheap to me. Maybe at $1000 or lower. Oil would be cheap at $70. Buy some stocks if the market crashes.

      • Tony Brogan

        All currencies are compared against each other with no measuring stick to value them except that people notice prices rising despite the recession.
        That is all currencies are in a competitive devaluation one against the other.
        All fiat currencies will tend to the intrinsic value that is close to zero. Cash is king in a normal recession but this is the greater hyperinflationary depression where central bank printing will reduce all currencies buying power. There is nowhere to run except hard assets.

    • Can I ask you something.
      What do you mean by ‘a few bob to protect’?

    • Land n Gold

      This is a great site and yer man has a serious track record of being correct, read the blog every night

      http://www.jsmineset.com/

      • Tony Brogan

        Jim Sinclair is the best. Mr Gold.
        Great integrity and empathetic.
        Well connected and astute. his blog is self funded in the public interest.

    • Psst. Know anyone who knows where to park a few pounds?

      I’ve not insulted anyone on here for ages but you Coughlan are the worst scum of all. You are a troll and should take your sick sense of humour elseehwere

      Oh David. Please please help me!

      Any idea how pathetic that sounds

      Oh David David I am drowning please help me

      Haw haw haw

      Human nature in all it’s ugliness and self centered self pity. Get a feckin grip

      • cooldude

        Paul I read Michael Colgan’s piece again to see if I had missed something on why he should be insulted in such a personal manner and I don’t see anything wrong with his post. This is an economics and finance blog and he simply asks for some advice in what financial assets are safe in this extremely difficult period we are all facing. it is natural to be confused by all the tricks the banksters are playing on us to scare us out of any type of money which will hold its value. I think you should consider your comments and see if they are valid. Again this is an economics blog and his comments are very much in tune with this blog

        • cooldude I read his post again and a week later I hold the same sentiments. From the wording it sounds like just another naive punter waiting to be parted from his money

          Such people are easy targets of clever marketing psychology and willing to pay for ‘advice’. I would suggest he contacts Mr McWilliams personally to arrange a private consultation

          I hope all financial gamblers lose money at some time and learn to be human again. It takes a life changing experience to break selfish mindsets but it can be done. But then again gambling can be a more destructive and irrational disease than drugs or alcohol. From the posters predicament he is a gambler. It’s clear to see

          Meanwhile on the Matt Cooper show tonight they were talking about the human misery all around us being stored up for the future due to the amount of alcohol being consumed in front of the kids at home

          Ding ding. Does no one hear these train coming round the bend. Na. Go back and count your virtual pennies. Fools

  6. CorkPlasticPaddy

    It seems to me that things aren’t getting better, only worse!! We’ve had summit after summit and we having had so many patches put in place it just goes to show that the EU leaders simply haven’t got a brain in their heads!!There’s too much emphasis on keeping the banks afloat to the detriment of every thing and anybody else. If some of the banks were ‘let go to the wall’ then our so-called leaders might sit up and take notice!!

  7. Stephen

    “It makes a mockery of the term monetary union. It is, in fact, an exercise in monetary apartheid, where one set of economic citizens is treated totally differently to another.”

    This is a very weak statement, yields are a function of cost of funds, market expectations, repayment risk and competitive forces. The municipal bond market in the US bears this out. The Italians and the Spanish have very different fiscal models then the Germans this is reflected in the yield on their debt.

    • Tony Brogan

      The yields are directly manipulated by the central banks and bare no relationship to reality.
      Markets are destroyed and true pricing can not be discovered. All is a fraud.

  8. Gerry C

    Perhaps it’s over simplistic of me but if there is a “world economical problem” could there or would there be a ” world economical answer”? When I hear of this many billions and that many trillions of national debt – I wonder when if ever such debt would be repaid. Surely is it not time to re-adjust the debt bar – perhaps a unilateral revaluing of the currencies where a “real value” is established (such as has happened with out over inflated over valued property). I am in a similar situation as Michael above and to be quite honest I don’t think there as any real options where money is better than being in cash form – preferable in a safe in your own home (as long as you own same). There doesn’t seem to be any direction or guidance given by any authoritative individual or body as to what would be best – most seem to be pre-occupied with telling us day in day out just how bad it is or how much worse it’s getting. Whereas it is a good thing to be kept informed – the media in particular seem to fill the time finding different ways to tell us what every dog in the street knows – this has and is creating a general feeling of hopelessness and depression not only from the young but across all ages. So come on David – as Michael asks …” what is the best way forward?”

    • straboe1

      Not all leaders are being pessimistic, Mario Draghi said the other day that Ireland was doing well! Increased suicides, people losing thir houses, cut backs in education and health and promises of further large cuts with each budget. We need positive people like Draghi.

    • cooldude

      Hi Gerry, Just a quick comment on your preferred solution of holding your money in cash outside the banking system. This takes away the risk from the insolvent banking system but in my opinion does not deal with the fact that all these paper currencies are being systematically debased by governments and central banks on a world wide basis. This is actual economic policy in all these countries as they “race to debase” their currencies with schemes like targeted inflation policies. In fairness to these bankers they are succeeding with this policy but it means that the purchasing power of your cash is being eroded constantly and systemically. The only way to avoid this is to switch a large chunk of your savings into a form of money which cannot be debased. By this I mean gold and silver held outside the insolvent banking system but also protecting the purchasing power of your savings. If we end up in some sort of second class euro for the piigs your savings will still have maintained their purchasing power when all savings in euros will be devalued overnight. As David points out it is now 50-50 whether the euro in it’s current form will survive. Having a good chunk of your savings in precious metals gives you protection from whatever fate awaits us.

      • Gerry C

        thanks for that cooldude – was going to clear the mortgage and credit card 1st – then look to what you suggested

        • Tony Brogan

          Get rid of debt if possible-Good move.
          Then land to feed yourself , silver to use day to day and gold for asset protection .

          • Adam Byrne

            And your own private army to ensure your food, gold and silver doesn’t get robbed. And a second private army to protect yourself from being robbed by the first.. etc. etc.

          • Correction. Get rid of all debt.

            Better still get yourself a prudent Scottish mother who will teach you to never get into debt in the first place

            It’s all so simple. Honest

          • Tony Brogan

            Well Adam
            so do not bother, then no one will bother you?
            You will do as you wish.
            I prefer the Scottish mother line from Pauldiv!

          • Adam Byrne

            Yeah, I prefer it too Tony, it’s a good one. Pauldiv always talks sense. But preferring one thing (or state) over another does not make it become real. I have a bit of land myself and I hope it’s still there by the time I get back to it. While I’m not there the neighbouring Rastas are free to pick and eat all the food that would otherwise decay on the forest floor. I have never borrowed anything in my life except maybe a few quid off my mother, haha and she’s happy enough about it. Lord knows I’ll spend all my money on my daughter for the rest of my life and be glad for having her! Everything else is just material crap. But I like to work hard and I expect to do well in my most fruitful years to come and in that case I’ll be spreading the net a bit wider and spending on my numerous friends in addition to my afore-mentioned family. Greedy people don’t see the world like we do. Neither do ignorant ones. We’d be better off without the top 5% and the bottom 50%. Call a spade a spade why don’t I?

          • Adam Byrne

            All the fruit I mean. Tonnes of it. Mangoes, Coconuts, Bananas, Guavas, Breadfruit, Tomatoes, etc. etc. you name it, some I don’t even know the names of, but my local lady does. And a river running through it with fresh water to drink. You can all come for a party when I get back. Leave your guns on the other side of the river before crossing on the stones.

          • Thanks Tony and Adam for your supportive comments. The fact is I am usually always four sheets to the wind whenever I post. I love the blog and I get a lot out of it personally. The posters are all things but some of them I know are honest and some of them not worth a light

            I prefer photography, walking and the outdoors but when I have a beer I get broody and think too much about the world. I can tell you that it is possible to have a beer and think and still feel good about yourself

            It is allowed

          • Tony Brogan

            Sounds nice adam as long as there is some good company.

          • Adam Byrne

            Oh yes, plenty Tony. I have tonnes of friends and a few more to make in life.

          • You catch far more bees with honey than with vinegar.

            Just ask oor Colin

          • Colin

            Ah Paul, me ears were burning at work when you posted earlier, felt the need to check in to the site, see what’s happening.

            Truth is, I’ve lost interest in reading and posting here. I don’t have the free time to read and contribute. Also, I’m now financially comfortable, so I don’t actually have worries about the economy. I have no house, car, or even a bicycle, so asset depreciation does not worry me either. I don’t own any gold or any other precious materials, so no fretting over that either.

            During the boom years, I returned to college, and I invested in my education, which has reaped rewards, because not only was I forced to manage a very tight budget while studying, I opened my mind to new and improved ways of thinking. Reading a recommended text book ‘Smart Choices: A Practical Guide to Making Better Decisions’, John S Hammond (Author), Ralph L Keeney (Author), Howard Raiffa (Author). I strongly recommend it to anyone.

          • Adam Byrne

            Colin, that’s a short termist view, don’t give up on us just yet. You may be ‘financially comfortable’ but in what medium are you holding your wealth? I’m not one of these ‘buy gold’ merchants and you are right to invest in your education (as I am) and I’m glad that you are utilizing your profession right now (and I’m still looking forward to our beer in ‘the city’ (the other part of the city)), but don’t stop thinking all of a sudden Colin, just because you have a warm bed and a full belly for the time being. You need a medium term strategy at least pal. That money that is building up in the bank will be no use to you if the bank itself disappears. Get a piece of paradise in the sun for yourself is my recommendation. I have a distinct lack of a sense of humour myself Colin, but not as much as you do. Smile a little more man and me you, Pauldiv and Tony will have a beer soon, I’ll be referee between you and Pauldiv, Tony may only observe seeing as he’s a boxing champion – we’ll all be friends.

          • Tony Brogan

            Well Adam, so now i am a merchant, and tyet i have offerred to sell you nothing. Not even the idea of buying gold was offered for sale! If you wanted to buy gold from Me i would not sell it at twice the price unless I needed to. Unless you wanted to pay me the $3200 today and i would willingly do so and then I would promptly go in to the market to double my number of ounces sold to you.I am looking forward to that beer with you. The more I can feed you the better chance I have of getting you to make the investment of my life by buying my gold at double the currnet quoted price.
            Pretty well all i am good for these days is to referee and so I, while sucking on another beer, will happily watch colin and Pauldiv square off. If you insist on being the referee I will be the judge to count the points to see who is the winner.All we need is a venue. Sligo or where? Can’t wait to view the scrap of the century LOL

          • Colin

            Adam,

            Rumours of my lack of sense of humour have been greatly exagerated.

            Long term is so 20th century, look short term and review as required, and adjust accordingly.

            I don’t think I can find the switch to turn off thinking. I’m always at it, trying to find a different angle. For example, spoke to work colleagues about property in the South East of old Blighty. I ask, how can people afford these huge mortgages? Answer: a lot of my mates have interest only mortgages, and now banks are going to change all that, which will leave a huge chunk of new homeowners up shits creek, unable to pay their real mortgage monthly repayments.

            Watch out, train crash coming to a station near you, calling at Clapham Junction, Earlsfield, Wimbledon, Raynes Park, New Malden, Norbiton, Kingston, Hampton Wick, Teddington, Fulwell, Hampton, Kempton Park, Sunbury, Upper Halliford and Shepperton.

          • Hey Colin I laughed loud there. First one today mate. I had a feeling you would tune in. Your antenna is working fine and maybe it is a case of that you can leave the blog but the blog can’t leave you

            It must be good to know that no matter where you are or what you are doing that your old jousting pals remember old times. Welcome home Irish brother

            It’s quieter when you are not around and you should post more. I have 3 or 4 days away from the net and on the other days I come here and see what the guys have been talking about. After I’m done here I get on with my life but it’s important that I get some education and a little bit of empathy

            I hate being the only rabble rouser here but there are some real bright sparks who know how to chew the fat

            I reckon we are similar in that we both went back to college during the boom and that makes us kinda brothers and not just Irish brothers

            Going back to the very basics and taking a personal vow of self imposed penury makes a man grow up and I am sure you know what I am talking about

            Others will follow us and they won’t know why because life was carefree and simple only a few years ago whereas now it is nightmare. It is not a nightmare for the man with nothing left to lose and he is the one who will survive as the others bleat about their poor fortune. Fortune favours the brave

            I thank god for having known poverty but then again maybe that’s me. If I had the cash I’d fly to Lisbon tomorrow and go and see the hallowed turf, sit outside cafes and watch the world. It would be a dream come true. I’d also be glad to get a break from all this fuckin rain and politicians talking pure mine

            Are you still in London?

          • If the four of us ever go for a keg (and I hope we do) or two of decent beer I reckon it will be a hoot and that strong and lasting friendships will be formed

            I love people with fire in their stomachs and enjoy intellectual jousting to mutual benefit and lasting freindship. Confrontation is healthy (as long as it is shown with respect) because it keeps our brains sharp, changes minds, keeps our balls keen (as they well should be) and shatters internal delusions

            Real friends will give you home truths when need be and when such truths come from a friend we are forced into action because our integrity is at stake. It is too much to ignore and if we feel we are being conned then we put our boot down and stamp our authority over our emotions and worst fears. If we call it right we triumph and if call it wrong then we live in hell, for a while, or until we feel like brushing cobwebs from the front door lintel to face the sun again

            Haw haw but the trouble is these days it is so hard to tell the difference between a friend and a foe because everyone is coming at you from a different angle. I’d hate to be the target of so many sharpened arrows but that is the trouble with people who think they are god. These guys can lie all they want and never be challenged and they get away with it every week and are so teflon coated that arrows may not exist as far as they are concerned, capiche?

            It’s also great to slow down and take in the mystery and depth of souls who are sensitive and who are not so extroverted in public but then we all know how to tune into the deepest of souls. We all all know someone like that. That is why we all love Luke Kelly

            Do we care or don’t we? Are we a people who care or are we just a bunch of ignorant savages who will throw a burning spear to the innocent wanderer who comes near our stash and do everything to protect a little bit o but and ben that that not worth a fart

            We protect our trinkets of gold while black children have their limbs hacked off. Yes you heard right. That is why faither aye told me to put tuppence in the box for the ‘black babies’

            Ireland. Were you always like this or what has become of you. What happened to the notion of the St Vincent de Paul box. Why is the St Vincent de Paul box not enough to make you want to scream ‘enough is enough’. Maybe you stopped seeing the St Vincent de Paul box like me when you were sweet sixteen

            Or will you spend your tomorrows conning yourselves that ‘we are in recovery’ when in reality you are screaming inside?. I believe that Mr McWilliams like many of us spends some time screaming inside and any reasonable person would conclude that this is a fact

            We need others because they keep us on our toes. It is the Irish way to be truthful with your friends when they are losing their way and can’t see what they are becoming. Many people are ashamed to be Irish and I don’t blame them. I’d feel shame too but I gave up on shame when I was fifteen. Life is far too short

            There is nothing more persuasive to moments of delusion than a safe monthly paycheck. I’d like it for sure but I’d always be haunted by the hungry faces behind the glass. Maybe that’s me

            We would most likely end up arguing over the Oxford dictionary definition of what constitutes a tosser and the evening would descend into perpetual laughter and that is very good for a healthy heart!

            It would most likely be like an evening spent in The Cricketers, the pub in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists (adam you read the bewk)

            and we would drink a hearty and fine salute to the finest writer Ireland ever produced

            Let’s raise our tankards to sech fine men as Enda who is such a fine man that a mere hunnert grand is an hinuslt and would not even whet the man’s whistle!

            Irish brithers. Those of you who have a soul. Don’t ever feel weak and don’t ever lose it. If you have the Irish soul then let it be a lightouse in this dark fucking world

            Now. Let’s talk economics

  9. ex_pat_northerner

    Gold dropping may seem paradoxical, but in many cases its the result of the same investors in gold being hit with losses and having to liquidate assets. In essence the long term ‘solution’ to this financial crisis will be more money printing and higher gold price..or at least thats seems to be the outcome of any previous financial crisis.

  10. piombo

    My take on the summit is that Germany knows that if it were to refuse to backstop the ESM now it would have caused an unplanned run on the Euro and put it’s own banks at risk of insolvency. The other reason Germany consented was that the Banking Union process has been fast-forwarded with the added benefit of almost immediate EZ Banking Supervision for the ECB. The achievement of these goals alone are sufficient for Germany to remain in the game.
    Politically, what the fraulein in Mainz thinks is irrelevant. She will vote for whichever party ARD, ZDF and Bild tell her to vote for at the appropriate moment.

  11. Since Germany needs the Euro to remain competitive and the world needs the rest of Europe as a marketplace what about this scenario?
    Dr Merkel et al assumes the responsibility as Europes banker, calls in all the Pirahanas feeding off all this speculation and makes them an offer they can’t refuse. That being take whats on offer else we pull out of Europe and stand alone(and you get nothing cause the rest are all broke).
    I’m sure the cost benefit analysis has been done long ago.
    Now having reached a mutually acceptable resolution (The Big Burn), Germanys spin machine goes into overtime before the elections declaring that only for direct teutonic action, the indisciplined fools in the rest of Europe were toast.
    Germany solved all their problems in one fell swoop without apparently it costing Germany a red cent, since any loans outstanding will attract interest.
    Thus Dr Merkel becomes the saviour and benefactor of Europe for which the German people reward her with reelection.
    More “tougher” rules will be drawn up so that this “will never happen again”.

    Tim Geithner won’t be very happy but then again it was his mob that cheerleaded this mess in the beginning, so tough titty Tim.

    One sharp correction and we’re globally back on track, though now that we understand the critical imbalances within Euroland, Euro2 is needed.

    (I never got to Dun Aengus John. Went to Dingle instead.)

    • http://t.co/V38S6p5j

      This guy is a bit more eloquent than me…….

      • piombo

        @furrylegs,
        Your scenario is utopian to say the least! The fault in the logic employed is thinking that there are external counter parties to the Sovereign debt of Italy, Ireland, Spain Greece, Portugal and France. This is not the case for the most part. The sovereign is held by pension funds, domestic banks and only marginally by extra-EZ counter parties such as investment funds etc.,
        So, who does Dr Merkel call in to execute the “Big Burn”? Soros, Paulson or Irish Life? Or perhaps you believe that JP Morgan’s Jamie Dimon will be called in? Or will Dr Merkel call in the head of the public sector unions of any EZ country you might like to choose to inform them that their members have to take a 50% reduction in pensions in order to clean up the sovereign debt situation…
        And even if this situation was in some manner executed, burnt savers and pensioners would be in civil war mode against their own governments and those who would benefit from such write-offs, i.e., social welfare recipients and public service workers!

        • That’s right Piombo. Everyone from the top down and the bottom up will take a nasty hit on this. Unfortunately it started from the bottom up with so called austerity.The main debt collectors have been protected with Sovereign guarantees etc but now that pot is dry.

          If the Germans take the bull by the horns, they retain control, a central tenet in teutonic thinking.
          If not, far from being Utopia, it will be the 4 horsemen trotting down O’Connell St when the whole project unravels.

          Those Miners marching 400k’s from Asturias and Catalonia to Madrid don’t have much in common with the perceived elite. Same goes here and in Greece. Italy is as disparate as the US.

          Ruling elites are self destructing. They dont or wont relinquish whatever particular breed of power that sustains them, in this case, debt of the masses.

          Scary times.

          • piombo

            @furrylegs,
            My point was that Merkel cannot call anyone in to “burn the debt” in a unilateral way without risking civil wars throughout the continent. She would also destroy a good part of the saved wealth of the German mittelstand.
            Thankfully, Germany is governed by lucid middle-aged people who are motivated to protect wealth and pensions.
            The German strategy of forcing poorer countries such as Ireland, Italy, Portugal, Greece and eventually France to reduce their state spending through lower public service wage costs and lower social welfare transfers is both morally and economically the only sustainable one both in the short and medium terms.
            Living within each one’s means is the fundamental tenet of both democracy and civil society.
            Italy, where I live and work, has since 1966 abrogated on this tenet in it’s management of the Public Purse. Before that, it maintained balanced budgets and along with Germany produced an economic miracle without precedent. Our generation here, similar to Ireland, has to choose between a secular break with the past deficit-financed State or grit our teeth and give ourselves five years of structural reductions with the hope that Italy comes through on the other side with a strongly competitive economy.
            I hold no hope in the Italian political or public sector sections but I do believe that ordinary Italians given the prospect to break with the past would jump at the opportunity. We Irish should set ourselves a similar goal and forget about burning our creditors.

          • bonbon

            Burn the bondholders, and anyway London’s FT, FTD, FAZ is getting ready to do jut that – Glass-Steagall calls beginning on Jul-04 (no wiggle room there) have reached a crescendo. So SF is on the sane track.

  12. rebean

    So we get a DEAL on our debt. 3.1 billion a year is the repayment on that casino bank Anglo. So we still borrow 13 billion a year to pay welfare and the public service.
    We have accumulated debts of 250 billion ( I think , Correct me if I am wrong ) The bottom line stands that we need to get our house in order regardless of Europe. The day we balance our books is the day we can walk away (if we need to ) and God knows we might even keep our renewables from those business savy Krauts

    • piombo

      @rebean,
      Agree with your logic but not with the racism against Germany.
      Although DMcW disclaims it, there is an induced anti-German jingoism which might go down well in West Britannia but makes us look like Falkland islanders to the rest of Europe!

      • bonbon

        Just count the number of articles on Germany, but not on Germany- a hotel receptionist is hardly the voice of the people. Follow the case in the Constitutional court right now. West Brits have always played squire – the Pale.

        And racist jingoists have always “logic” on their side.

        • rebean

          Had a black girlfriend when I lived in the USA. Could I still be racist ? More like I was slagging them off. Just like I have overheard a german guy that comes every summer to his cottage up the road remarking how us Paddies drink way too much. Bit of a generalisation I would say. Maybe some of us need to develop a sense of humour too.

  13. Philip

    As DMW says for China: Recession is not an option. If they don’t deliver success, they are toast.

    Well, I think we need to understand what we mean by toast for the People’s Party. For me, I think the whole corrupt bunch of them will be turfed out on their ear by the Chinese Army to bring back “equality”.

    Meanwhile, over in Iran where the Israelis are lining up for a bomb and nukem campaign, I can see China wanting to start protecting its interests. Syria is only a shaping up exercise of who’s really got the power between east and west.

    The whole financial system is imploding because there is no economic backstop to prevent it. Germany being used to save what is left of Europe / World etc is really like pi$$ing into a bon fire and hoping to make a difference. Really guys, anyone thinking the situation can recover by a process of growth or need big boom is deluded.

    The way I see it is that when the Republicans come to power and the Chinese Army makes its presence felt and Europe goes bang taking all global financial institutions with it (give it 6 months or less)…we will have a face off.

    And with global weather systems really screwing up food and water supplies of late…plenty of triggers are presenting themselves. (to the guys wanting to know where to put their money? Buy arable land.

  14. Three points:

    1. James O’Reilly and his conflict of interests….seriouly WTF is he doing still in government????

    2. Adam Clayton using our legal system for free ( he pays no taxes here ) to get his accountant sent down for 7 yrs.

    3. Sean Quinn and co. off-shoring 500million euro to russian accounts…being held in contempt of court…..he walks free….again WTF???????

    A seriously enraged citizen!!!!

    • Deco

      Josey, in case you have not noticed, the law in Ireland is a complete donkey.

      4. Seanie Fitz staying an expensive hotel in Poznan, in the midst of the Irish eijjet herd, but the same Seanie Fitz has to live on a very small monthly allowance.

      5. Quinlan.

      6. The pensions of Bertie, Harney and co..

    • Because the law is designed to protect these people while you and me pay for it

      It’s called justice

  15. CorkPlasticPaddy

    That’s what we get for voting for these people time after time. Nothing is going to change politically or economically in this country until its citizens have another kind of party to vote for.

    David, why don’t you and other ‘like minded people’ get together and form a new (political) organization that would go about changing things for the betterment of everyone in this country?

    • piombo

      @Corkplasticpaddy,
      Between the 500,000 on social welfare and another 350,000 people in the Public Service added to another say 1,000,000 people dependent on the first two groups how many people are going to vote for the “betterment of everyone in this country”?
      The hard truth is that the State needs to reduce it’s spend by 35% just to achieve a balanced budget.
      This means yanking the bone from a lot of proverbial dogs and unless you have either a big big stick or a clear convincing case there is no point in even trying.
      Which politician will risk proposing to pay themselves or the public servants in line with say Slovakia, Slovenia or even Northern Ireland?
      What politician will risk proposing to tax income-producing land as other income-producing assets are taxed and levied?
      If DMcW were to form a party, they would have to let the public servants know they are in for a 50% pay cut to align to the countries mentioned above. Same for the farmers and the social welfare recipients. I can see it now, the landslide victory as people were overcome with the prospect of no more foreign holidays, satellite tv etc.,

      • There is an alternative solution. Starting breeding like rabbits until we get a critical mass of disadvantaged people who will demand change.
        There’s just not enough people in the country and the few that are here are too easily bought off with trinkets.

        • Adam Byrne

          Furrylugs I think you should go forth and multiply with that idea of yours.

          • Idea? It is a contradiction in terms

            It is the ones who are easily bought off with trinkets that are paying attention. Now I know my next sentence will be up your street Adam if I know you as well as I think I do

            The working class and underclass can’t face it. They’d rather watch football, GAA and spend time with their families and do normal things

            Maybe it is people like us who are the ones with a problem. By thinking too much

          • Adam Byrne

            Spending time with your family is normal Pauldiv. Grown men worshipping celebrity brats (running around a field kicking a piece of leather) while spending their money on Sky subscriptions, 10 pints of lager on a Sunday with the kids running around in the pub car park, and all the merchandise (replica kits etc.) is not normal. Libraries are free in this country (one of the only things that is). A lot of people go to them, but not enough. If more did, there would be more of them. People might think more, eat better, sleep better, vote better (especially), be more community minded and compassionate – you get the picture. But no, they won’t – too damn lazy. Hard to put a percentage on it of course but 50% is probably not far off. That’s a lot of votes for the politicians who know how to manipulate the masses – Bertie and his Dublin / Man Utd. shirt. Wake up Ireland before it’s too late. Funny thing is I’m really good at soccer, always have been. Still am, 28 goals for Cherry Orchard last season. Still debating whether to go back this September though. I find it a struggle to like it. Odd. Made money out of it in Hungary, Dominica and Antigua while in between jobs. But it’s not a noble profession. It’s a healthy pastime that should not be taken to excess, like most things in life.

          • There are ten pints of lager merchants in every county. If an unemployed builder feels like having ten pints of lager on a hot dole day then why not. It’s not his fault he has ran out of work. He just wants to know where the next job is coming from. No harm in having a beer if it’s a nice day and the mixer is at rest

            An unemployed stockbroker might sit in his garden and sink ten gins and tonics before tea and an unemployed potter in Derbyshire might sink five bottles of Old Peculiar before making sure the bitch has the dinner ready

            I am in no position to judge and it took years to arrive at this conclusion

            All I know is that all people have their worries, imagined or otherwise, and that psychology is a fascinating subject. Especially for someone who came from the streets and looks at all this middle class hysteria and paranoia

            This blog makes me laugh and that is what I like about it. It is a voyeurs paradise. Haw haw haw

            It may be the authority on Irish economic matters but it is heavily laced with drama, irony and comedy

            Did I ever tell you about the time me, ma, and my sister turned the settee upside down and found two pounds in change

            Instead of sausages and stale biscuits it was beer and indian curry. Boy George was number one at the time

          • Adam Byrne

            Hahaha I need some of that Old Peculiar myself! 10 pints of it and I’ll tell the kids to go play with the traffic – like my father used to do when we’d visit Paisley. in the 80s. We went to see St. Mirren one Saturday afternoon, then straight to Jimmy Fae’s (RIP) pub (can’t remember the name) near the shopping centre with the St. Mirren merchandise store.

            Seeing as kids weren’t allowed in Scottish pubs at that time (are they now?), he would leave me outside for hours until he staggered out legless from the whiskey.

            The halcyon days.

          • Off I go so…………

          • The Old Peculiar is heavy but the taste kicks ass. It is a wonderful brew

            St Mirren lol. There was a wire mesh ‘separating’ the home fans from the away fans back in the 80s

            Celtic won the league by beating saints 5-1 on the last day of the 86 season while Hearts (who were odds on favourites) died at dens park. They were all in tears

            The saints fans kept throwing eggs at the mesh and we kept out spirits up. It was austere but we had something to hope for

            Now it is austere and the the only hope we have is in our humanity. Paisley is a gas place if you are with someone who can show you around

            I wonder how much a former council house goes for there these days. Would probably made my nose bleed lol

        • Adam Byrne

          Give ‘them’ one for me Furrylugs.

        • Well did you say that on Dun Aengus in the recent days when you visited it …what was the feeling like ?

  16. Deco

    I suspect Finland and the Netherlands will leave the Euro before they will be suckered with the bill to save France.

    I suspect that France is in a worse state than Italy, except the French do not know it yet.

  17. Dorothy Jones

    Groan….why does this perception exist that Germany is somehow in control. It is not. There is no plan. The German interests have the biggest exposure to the Euro failure. Markets have been betting on this. Now it’s in the open. Germany is not in control. From today’s Handelsblatt:
    http://blog.handelsblatt.com/globalmarkets/2012/06/21/gefahrliche-wetten-gegen-deutschland/

  18. rebean

    I guess I just dont trust them having studied history a good deal.Apparently European history in schools is to be taught post 1945 ? I am suspicious of everyone in power. Yes I believe in conspiracy theories and that the boom to bust was engineered. I believe there is corruption everywhere and that nobody gives a toss about this sorry state of a nation. I believe in slagging off the Germans and i think they really need to develop a sense of humour if they are actually going to run the show in Europe which is what they really want without the cost of the whole fiasco.

    • Tony Brogan

      Hi rebean

      It is no longer a theory when it is the truth and there is evidence to support the allegations. There is a cabal that colludes, plans and exercises every move.
      Pauperizing and destroying the western industrial democracies is just a step along the way to authoritarian one world government.
      The modus operandi is by way of the central banking system. Boom and bust the standard plan.
      The retain individual and national sovereignty the central banks must be destroyed before we ourselves are destroyed.

  19. Deco

    We are seeing a divide between those that are living between their means, and those that have a right to live above their means.

    The European Imperial project has failed. It has run out of resources, and moral standing.

  20. Decent article but Keiser is the guy telling how it is. You Irish boys are too afraid to be unliked

    The financial system is rotten and white collar crime is spiraling. Why?

    After 2008 you’d expect crime to be falling but instead it is increasing. Immunity from prosecution when millions can be scammed off to accounts in the Cayman Islands is not a deterrent

    It is clear to anyone with a brain that the Neocon gameplan is entering a new phase. Forget your pensions and savings for a minute and think

      • Tony Brogan

        Seems we have had a few posts censored Dorothy
        References to having a good time away from the computer have evaporated.
        Here is your last reply

        Author: Dorothy Jones
        Comment:
        Cool Tony! Do you have a blog?

        And the answer is no I do not—yet!
        T

        • Dorothy Jones

          Pity Tony…I saw the refs..they were great! Best D

        • Really? What posts were censored and how do you know they were censored

          • Tony Brogan

            Easy. Dorothy made a reference to to much time on the computer. there is a life to lead. I responded with comment about biking and sailing.
            She replied .
            I could not find the posts as they have disappeared but picked up the one I qoted above from the email notice and responded as you see.
            Probably deemed too personal and not economic enough. HHowever the point being made was that there is a life outside this blog and worrying about the state of the world.
            As you say. may be we are the mad ones for thinking too much rather than those who carry on oblivious to reality untily it smacks them over the head.

          • Tony Brogan

            I have been reflecting on this issue.
            Generally DMW allows all sorts of commentary even that critical of his opipion/position.
            The two times that I have had postings deleted appear to have a common thread.
            Each time someone asked for personal information. specifically, I was asked if I had an email address in the first issue, and if I had a blog in the second.
            There seems to be a policy, unannounced, that will not allow posters to contact each other outside this blog.Each time I responded the thread was cut and removed.
            So if any of us wish to meet or get together outside of this blog we have to find another way, or receive permission to do so on this site.
            Paul, I do not see censorship as much as control to prevent the blog being a personal chat site. I understand the need for oversite to prevent abuses. I am having some difficulty deciding where that control should be, or how it should be, exercised.
            The ultimate decision is with the owner of the site. It would be of interest to have some clarity on the policy.

          • Adam Byrne

            Good evening Tony,

            David will speak for himself but having met his gregarious self on a number of occasions (both on my own and with other posters in a variety of settings) I’d be very surprised if there was any form of censorship applied to this blog whatsoever. The only way that could happen would be if someone made outright threats, racist , overtly sexual remarks or something similar.

            Similarly people are free to meet as and when they please and this has occurred with posters on numerous occasion, with or without David’s attendance. Hoping we can have an Old Peculiar with Pauldiv one day soon Tony.

            I’m still thinking technical glitch or some sort of malfunctioning filter but if I’m wrong I’ll freely admit it. Have a nice weekend Tony.

        • Thank you. In this case posters who care about this issue could consider creating another forum where free speech and freedom of thought is genuine and will never be compromised within reason. Can you prove that McWilliams censors?

          For historical accuracy if nothing else since most history books to date were written my paid liars. We own the copyright to all our thoughts and previous posts and it was we who made this blog and gave it life. It it has been censored as far as I know but all switched on posters on this forum will have come to a fundamental realisation – have I been played like a fiddle to give this street cred and help sell his books?

          If you believe otherwise then you are either new on the block or a blind soul looking for someone’s books to follow. You don’t need books and never have done. The blind are too heavily swayed by books and other questionable publications only because they don’t trust their own instincts and plain common sense. Common sense went out of fashion in 1979

          A fork (in open source terminology). Open Source Government as hinted at by Assagne. Othwerwise there is only one shocking conclusion – we have been living a lie and frankly we are witnessing the toxic influence on McWilliams of his corporate paymaster

          Jees we were naive but not any more and it was predicatble all along. Stop licking the ass of O’Brien and his muppets (Dorothy). That is what they want. Fuck him. I am the sole owner of all the words I have ever contributed to this archive and the O’Brien fellow can run and jump in the Liffey. He is an animal and not fit to own a newspaper

          The levels of censorship blatant or otherwise in the western media is worrying to say the least and now allegations are arising about the one guy who many people trusted

          Time for a borstal breakout

          If he tried to censor me he is aware that I’d crawl to Dublin if I had to to tear smile off his face. Then again there are other way to fry a fish or strip a whore

          Censored?

          Let them try it. If we are censored then we will find another place to be

          • Adam Byrne

            I don’t think there is any censorship on here. Personally I would assume that it was some sort of technical glitch. The software employed is not the best.

          • Tony Brogan

            Sorry, I posted this above but it should have been here.
            So I will repost.

            Tony Brogansays:

            July 13, 2012 at 6:17 pm

            I have been reflecting on this issue.
            Generally DMW allows all sorts of commentary even that critical of his opipion/position.
            The two times that I have had postings deleted appear to have a common thread.
            Each time someone asked for personal information. specifically, I was asked if I had an email address in the first issue, and if I had a blog in the second.
            There seems to be a policy, unannounced, that will not allow posters to contact each other outside this blog.Each time I responded the thread was cut and removed.
            So if any of us wish to meet or get together outside of this blog we have to find another way, or receive permission to do so on this site.
            Paul, I do not see censorship as much as control to prevent the blog being a personal chat site. I understand the need for oversite to prevent abuses. I am having some difficulty deciding where that control should be, or how it should be, exercised.
            The ultimate decision is with the owner of the site. It would be of interest to have some clarity on the policy

          • I agree with these concerns Tony. This is in all intents and purposes a public blog but which may be another wing of the corporate media structure that is owned, run and controlled by a tiny minority with establishment interests at heart. People who are well off and cashing in on their media credibility

            Be suspicious and be sharp like you always are. These Irish media guys are some of cutest whores you will ever meet. Our host used to brag about how cute he was when we was in Brian Lenihan territory and playing poker when working in the banks. Come on to fuck. Does the need to brag not ring bells?

            He is the type of guy Keiser is warning us about. It’s all meant to make publications fly off the shelf brother and is pure bullshit and melodrama. These are the types of guys who got bullied at school and are now getting their revenge on the bad world they were trained to hate. Every sentiment they pen points to a miserable childhood. It is as plain in the nose on your face

            Maybe our host is the ultimate insider as I suspect him to be. Just my opinion (for all it’s worth) but I believe my own integrity as a peasant on the west coast will outlive that of a whore in the Dublin media brigade and that after I die people that in tow decades time will prefer to listen to the words of a wanderer who loved Ireland than the corporate media whores of the day. Who would rather spend time with Tony?

            Whether this blog censors has yet to be be defined and it will only be a matter of time before it is made clear or otherwise. Watch this space

            I once suspected a post of mine had been deleted but this was a long time ago

            I kicked up a stink and it it’s not happened since

            Interesting to think

            Especially when you consider that McWilliams would be nothing without an audience. He knows it, you know it and I know it. We all know that his enemies will come here and marvel at the quality of the debate and commentary and think – I wish I could afford guys like that to write for me. McWilliams is trapped. He can’t be who he really want’s to be

            “It is a shame to see such talented players stifled by such a regime”. He will know what players I am referring to

            Maybe DMW needs a reminder that if he doesn’t sharpen his game his posters will flock to more interesting pastures

            So many places to see so many new friends to make right. It’s a truly amazing world

            Hail Hail. Your namesake jim was a legend!

          • Technical glitch sounds right adam.
            I’ve never experienced censorship on the blog and don’t believe it is censored.

      • Not need for ‘does indeed’

        ‘Max Keiser tells it like it is’.

        Writing for the web 101

  21. piombo

    Reflecting on the article and the responses so far, it would be fair to say there is an economic conflict, but not as espoused by DMcW, but rather between financial capital and it’s intermediaries I.e., banks and human capital and it’s intermediaries i.e., states, unions and politicians. Perhaps this is the natural confluence after the fall of communism and the latest iteration of a conflict that has always been present. Debt-fueled consumption has being the hallmark of the past twenty or so years and allowed significant advances in living standards for all concerned.
    The crux has come as aggregate consumption cannot significantly rise further due stagnant population growth in Europe while at the same time twenty years of rising prices have rendered large swathes of the European economies totally uncompetitive versus the BRIC’s and others.
    What to do? Pare government down to the bone and get out of the social protection business. Privatize everything except for justice, police, primary and secondary education and primary healthcare. Every other activity needed for the public good should be outsourced to the private sector through public tendering.
    The state needs to be refoucused to protect rights and monitor obligations but not to run buses nor engage in absorbing human resources, and most definitely not savings banks.
    Maybe this crises could be useful after all to permit some kind of secular rethink.

    • Adam Byrne

      Would the private sector run welfare programs (unemployment benefit, disability, etc.) as well in your scenario piombo? Or would there be any at all? Just curious. Thanks, Adam.

  22. piombo

    I don’t believe DMcW to be racist, I believe he has chosen sides though, which is fair enough.
    Germany is a much more amenable society for the Irish than anywhere else in Europe. The ordinary German has no historical problem with us while our close friends and neighbours still have a sort of latent herpes zoster toward the Irish. I speak as a person with twenty two years experience of the two societies. Yes, the media stirs up our Corporation tax but the people are liked and admired for their resilience. And yes, they do get educated about Irelands history in secondary school. How much do we know of theirs?

  23. Damn I knew it was a misprint

    The Government should be applauded on keeping Irish concerns on the UFO agenda. Roscommon has lots of experience in this field Adam. World experts apparently.

    • Adam Byrne

      What misprint was that Pauldiv?

      • Glasgow humour Adam. Glasgow humour.
        It’s too dark and facetious for Ireland.
        Jim Taggart would get it though

        • Adam Byrne

          I had a look at that ‘Our Friends in the North’ clip just now Pauldiv. I had never heard of the series – reading about it on Wikipedia. Have you ever seen GBH? That was good.

          • I’ve seen lots of dramas of note Adam and they sank in real deep. So deep they ensure I never feel lonely. I watched Boys Of The Blackstuff in 1982 and have loved Brit drama ever since. We could be doing that here now but I guess no one would give a damn except after a few bottles of Old Peculiar. We are all to lazy as you often point out

            Working class drama and film making is my sort of thing thing. One offs that tell a story and tell it well and without judgement

            I am on the dole but know that it is possible for people like me to think of creating something spectacular. It’s just that you can’t find people with conviction and passion these days. But then again fancy ideas are beyond working class people. The masses of the disenfranchised in this world of the O’Brien empire in the Leinster district you see

            I’d imagine it’s possible to create lasting art on the west coast if people had something to say. But what they have to say is not worth a crows shit on a car window

            Despair continues and the tiny techs will try to convince is that they are important an that most of the technical drivel on this bolg actually means jack shit. Still people like you prove that humanity is alive and kicking ass

            But hey who am I to argue with the likes of DMW and Morgan Kelly. To my thinking they are just people but everyone seems to hang onto their words as though they came down on a dark night and warmed the souls of the dead

            Tis simply not true

            If they meant what they said they would take a year out and work for free. Simple. They are all well heeled

            You can’t get any plainer than that

  24. CorkPlasticPaddy

    @piombo

    I didn’t mention any figures in my comment and I didn’t say anything about politicians reducing their pay down to the level of what the politicians in the countries you mentioned either! Ireland is an expensive place to live and work and until this country changes from being too expensive to being a reasonable place to live then nothing will change, ever! TD’s receive a salary of around €92,000 a year plus expenses. €92,000 a year to include expenses is more than enough for them to live on! Everyone else doesn’t have the luxury of being able to fall back on expenses!!!

  25. Tull McAdoo

    So now we are getting to understand how Fine Gael sat back on their fat asses and provided us with a token opposition when FF were launching Guarantees, Nama and so forth. It was because big Phil Hogan was in bed with Mickey Fingers over at the Nationwide Building Society. Phil it turns out had aspirations to live amongst his fellow Blueshirt West Brits in the leafy suburb of D4 and Fingers would provide him with an interest only loan to ease the transition……..

    Meanwhile Stubbs Reilly was availing of one of Berties tax avoidance measures through a nursing home in Tipperary, a county famous for producing one Michael Lowry a former fellow traveller of Stubbs and Phil…….

    Happy Gilmore hit the plinth to support Stubbs, but then again no surprise there given Happy’s little earner down in Galway sponsored by the Dept. of Education ( half a million is the figure I heard)

    It’s all starting to come out into the open, more grubby little fingers rooting around in the greasy till….I mean what the hell did Phil Hogan want with a penthouse apartment down in Portugal, Minister for the Environment, septic tank charges, wuf wuf wuf…

    While most of the media were concerned with the appalling spectacle that took place in the Phoenix Park, at a concert by a group called the “Swedish house mafia” I think they are called, maybe they should also look across the river and check in on the new “leinster house mafia”….The more things change , the more they stay the same.. Good night Ireland. Sleep well. And take it away Mirella Freni with that well known mafia hit….” O mio babbino Phillo”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow1niq0mOwE&feature=related

  26. Good stuff (above) about all the bad stuff. How to stop the 0.01% who brought all this on still calling the shots?

    • Tull McAdoo

      What I am suggesting Bryan is that people start with the man /woman looking back at them in the mirror and then start looking to the next layer of interaction.

      All this talk about Obama/ Glass-Steagall and so forth is all very fine and worthwhile but the simple fact remains that this country has been bankrupted and humiliated on the world stage and as of yet not as much as a bloody parking ticket has been handed out to the bastards that are responsible for it….

      Now surely to hell if I can find out about this shit from here in Perth, then I am sure that with even a modicum of effort things can be sorted out above in Ireland at the coalface so to speak.
      I am also bloody sick and tired of listening to that Thunderbird Kenny as he dances around on his puppet strings telling us all to be calm in case we scare the markets/bondholders/investors or whoever he can drag up to his feeble mind. Instead of “yes minister” we get “silence minister”.
      The sad fact that seems to be emerging is that we have replaced one set of self centred gombeen shower of drunken gobshites, with a shower of cowering cutehoor slieveen shower of gobshites….

      • bonbon

        Wow that’s concentrated expletive!

        What would be word for the LIBOR thieves below? Since they are not “our” shower, the must be gentlemen, what?

        That too is particularly Irish.

        So the dancing (expletive deleted – ed.) are covering for the same old empire. Just what’s needed, again.

      • bonbon

        As I understand it you are down-under in her Majesties outback? There the CEC is fighting for the republic of Australia – look them up. There is great fighting spirit and at the same time blatant expressions of empire.

        http://www.cecaust.com.au/

      • I agree looking in the mirror is a great place to start, Tull. “If it’s to be it’s up to me” is a step better than just bellyaching.

        In Perth, you’ll realise most Australians believe we’ve magically missed out on the global financial collapse. Trying to do my bit, I spoke in 2009 at Melbourne Town Hall with Steve Keen and Michael Hudson to say this just aint so: our residential bubble was as big as anywhere in the world, and it was going to take more than the money the Rudd government splurged around for us to avoid it. We’re just a little behind the curve.

        • Tull McAdoo

          House’s are just not affordable for young couples starting out here in Perth anymore. I was down the coast in Mandurah last week and there seems to be a lot of vacant apartments around the waterfront, you might know the area where you get the boat trips to see the Dolphins etc, which I was doing for the Nth Time, ah well grand kids……

          Beautiful area, beautiful apartments, no sales taking place, no cranes moving, little bit eerie I would have thought.
          How are things over in Melbourne in terms of affordability? I think it is starting to slowly unwind over here, and we both know once the dam breaks then its down down down.
          Strange thing is I was telling John Allen some years ago that we were above all this, just goes to show how things evolve when the proper corrective measures are not put in place. No surprise really that the present government has gone soft on property developers as they were the same with the mining interests.
          It will all end in tears I tells ya…..

          • I visited Perth and further south late last year, Tull. Yes, eerie is certainly the word when you see all the beautiful unsold mansion-like units overlooking the water at Bunbury.

            Melbourne is very patchy, but prices here are generally slowly heading south. Only real argument is whether they’ll drop off a cliff in the next 12 months or retreat gracefully @ 10% per year until they’re down 50%.

    • bonbon

      LIBOR will help a lot to put that 0.01% in the camera as Pecora did in 1932.

  27. Where is Colm these days?

    I miss all that numb nuts nonsense. I bet he had many D4 ladies on their knees with his intellect

    The good old days. Haw haw haw

    God bells his ego and god bless the man inside the ego. Was so huge that each time I looked at the sky i felt I was living under a warm cloud becuase I knew I was fine long as Colm was keeping me straight

    Now I have small problem. I have a shitload of gold in a large glass jar. Passed down through the ages. Must be worth a fair whack

    I am thinking of going shore fishing and throwing it into the sea. Just for the hell of it

    It would be so much fun and prove that I love the wind more than all the crap people worry about

    One person’s dream is another person’s nightmare

    • coldblow

      Last seen here:

      http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/05/29/mcwilliams-on-the-fiscal-treaty/

      See his post of 30 May, 9.03 am. signing off thus:
      “Tomorrow I move on. I don’t like posts being pulled and censored.”

      See Eoin’s reply a few minutes later.

      I used to love the way he came up with heroes, only to see them demolished in succession. They include Lincoln (I replied to that one here), the Pres. of Iceland (shot down spectacularly on irishceonomy by Michael Hennigan: “Go forth young Viking [bankers] and conquer the world”) and many more.

      I’d love to see him back here, if only to have my finger on the pulse as to what is currently pc. Really, it’s a little dull here without him. And I want to suggest a few reasons why he might consider loving VS Naipaul.

      • coldblow

        And where’s Georg too? I want to find out more about the Nexus and the hulking albino from Opus Dei.

      • It would be a much more creditable and sound place with Colm and Georg back. Their absence is a huge loss but I admit their egos were rather irritating at times. Still they are nice enough guys when you talk to them as ordinary dudes. Humour often brings a man to the level of the rest of us

        They were too balsy and we are not comfy with that. We are too under emotionally developed to handle the views of experienced and grown up adults

        Anyway. David didn’t like it haw haw

        Which leaves us asking who has been the biggest loser and who has suffered and pained the most. It is pretty tragic actually. Pride becomes before a fall

        I wish I knew the real story behind their differences but then I could not care less at all. It is warm summer and life is sweet

        Then again there are clues everywhere to be gleaned from reading between the lines. For example. Did you know that lots of media people are not better than you or I and that lots of them love the club scene. It’s a closed shop of private parties, drugs, hypocracy and shutting you mouth

        Jeez. You would never believe the tales, photos and facts I have on what happens in Dirty Dublin. I have not just been rubbing my comfort button for all these years. I think of the ordinary people and their daily life and know how the big shots control their empires. Night and bloody day

        There are far more shocking facts than appear in the idiot sunday redtops

        Or are you all to scared to be banished from the wilderness haw haw?

        I will break beer with you in the hot wilderness Irish brother. Does ice cold stout and straight talking in 110 degrees sound up your street?

      • Ha ha ha. What a giggle.
        I forgot all the references to Greek Mythology.
        Yes Colm was some man indeed

    • redriversix

      Hey Pauldiv

      Please do not mention Colin,if you say his name three times he appears and won’t go away !

      • Colin

        Funny you say that red, when I hear your name mentioned 3 times, I feel the immediate need to make a bowel movement.

        • redriversix

          Damn………..!

          • Hey RR6,

            I did not know that trophozoites can be found in the brain, but you never stop learning, I thought that would be exclusive to gastrointestinal pathology. Isn’t it strange how people expose themselves to produce mainly diarrhea?

            ;)

          • Colin

            Georg,

            I find it stranger that people who periodically insult our host, and others, threaten violence against others, take a vow of absence, but keep returning to peddle the same liberal lefty nonsense and continue to make make snide comments.

            I believe you need look no further than German porn if you want to see how bodily functions are influenced by the senses.

        • Colin

          There is only one thing more evil on this earth
          than Germans

          That is .. sleazy Germans who sell sleazy German porn

          Why do these sleazy people make so much filthy cash from their sleazy porn?

      • Jeez I know RR6.

        If I ever mention the word ‘Colin’ I will keep to one uttereance

        Thanks for the alarm haw haw

  28. bonbon

    Consider this. UBS, Barclays both got immunity from LIBOR investigation in return for cooperation, while HSBC, the bank of Dope Inc, may be fined massively for laundering.
    The CEO of Barclays, Bob Diamond, bundled cash for Romney, and UBS NY CEO Robert Wolf bundled for Obama, and is a golf and vacation friend.

    Gasparino of the NY Post notes Geithner and Bernanke knew about the LIBOR rate-fixing while bailing-out and will appear before the House Financial Services Committee. We are talking of 10′s of trilluions creamed off at least since 2005, big time compared to Lehman.

    In 1933 FDR could pass the Glass-Steagall banking act because the Pecora Commission had so weakened Wall-Street and London. Now we see the same softening up.

    Unrelenting pressure leading to the convention as LIBOR and the next huge scandal break, is guaranteed.

    • bonbon

      I mention this because this must spread over the EU. This is huge. I am waiting for Deutsche bank etc to appear in the news. LIBOR-based interest-rate swaps are at the center of lawsuits against at least 14 banks in the US including Deutsche, Credit-Suisse. This is bound to hit here, as this kind of paper is rampant.

    • bonbon

      When one hears this how can anyone start a jingoist rant about actual nations’ peoples being bailed out?

      Richard Eskow of Campaign for America’s Future writes: “Reports say that the Fed knew about Barclay’s deception back in 2007 and did nothing. No. scratch that. It rescued Barclays and its executives with nearly a trillion dollars in publicly-backed loans.

      Thanks to the GAO audit of the Fed — an audit which it vigorously resisted — we know that Barclays was the fifth largest recipient of emergency loans. Bailout loans for Barclays came to $868 billion. That means that Barclays probably made billions off the reduced interest rate alone, courtesy of the American people. Those loans were granted between December of 2007 and July 2010. That means the Fed was doling out billions to Barclays after it learned that the bank was lying about its LIBOR rates.”

  29. joe hack

    What would “Woody” Guthrie have wrote of the bakers?

    GREED?

    “Woody” Guthrie
    As I went walking, I saw a sign there,
    And on the sign there, It said “no trespassing.” [In another version, the sign reads "Private Property"]
    But on the other side, it didn’t say nothing!
    That side was made for you and me.
    In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
    By the relief office, I’d seen my people.
    As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
    Is this land made for you and me?

  30. bonbon

    LIBORgate is the funeral of an imperial system – finished.

    Zombie Bank Dexia Takes Billions from Italy, France, Belgium

    July 13, 2012 (LPAC) — The Belgian-French banking giant Dexia has been the one big banks to fail in the 2011-12 Eurozone collapse so far. It has been bailed out twice in three years, to the tune of nearly 80 billion euros, and is now, as a zombie bank, demanding more bailouts.

    When striding the Earth as the world’s largest municipal lender, Dexia was costing cities in Italy, France, and the United States billions with interest rate “swaps” based on the LIBOR frauds. Now as a zombie, it is looking to take down whole national budgets with its bailout demands.

    Dexia’s remnant bank still holds state and city loans and interest-rate swaps based on rigged LIBOR rates all over Europe and the U.S. It is demanding that Belgian-French-Luxembourg guarantees for its bailout be increased from 55 billion euros to 100 billion immediately. But at the same time, in June it cut off its bond-lending lines to more than 100 cities all over France, putting the cities in a severe squeeze.

    The national Banque Postale is trying to enter the municipal market with 4 billion euros to compensate for Dexia’s suddenly calling in bonds.

    In Italy, where 400 local administrations bought interest-rate “swaps” totalling 66 billion euros, Dexia’s zombie is looting more than 10% of that. Its subsidiary Dexia-Crediop has sold “swaps” derivatives to 36 municipalities, with a value of 3.9 billion euros. In a revolt in the courts, some cities have cancelled these looting contracts as illegal, including Florence, Pisa, and now Prato.

    But the dead bank still demands more taxpayers’ bailout money. Bernhard Ardaen, a former Dexia banker who has authored a book on Dexia’s collapse entitled {Time Bomb}, says that Dexia’s bailout, beyond the immediate increase being demanded, could eventually cost France another 75 billion euros, and Belgium an incredible 150 billion euros (1.5 times its GDP). Of the impact on Belgium, Ardaen says, “Interest rates would explode, and the country would immediately head into a negative spiral. Then a Greek scenario for Belgium would no longer be unthinkable.”

  31. bonbon

    Just look at the names as LIBOR spreads like wildfire.

    The LIBOR Robbery of the Cities and States — According to combined public reports, 14-16 of the largest “universal banks” in the world are now unde investigation by U.S. and European authorities for rigging the LIBOR interest rates to their profit and the world’s economies’ loss. These are Barclays, Lloyds, HSBC, RBS, Credit Suisse, UBS, Deutschebank, Rabobank, Dexiabank, Citigroup, JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Royal Bank of Canada, and Mitsubishi Bank. The number may grow to 40, according to the Wall Street Journal reporters who have exposed the rigging in occasional articles since 2008. Amid the welter of underfunded civil probes, 12 U.S. Senators issued a demand July 12 that the investigations be criminal, and potentially include investigations of regulators [Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner is notable] who abetted this immense, years long series of crimes.

  32. [...] here to see the original: David McWilliams » Since the summit, it's the Germans against the rest ← Debt Management Versus Debt [...]

  33. StephenKenny

    The scandals erupting are beyond belief (LIBOR, etc), and so few systems seem work anymore. Here’s one view of what’s happening: Essentially, it’s about the kind of people who get to the top these days, and why.

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/why-dont-the-psychopaths-on-wall-street-and-in-d-c-show-remorse-for-their-destructive-actions-and-why-dont-we-stop-them.html

    • Stephen,

      I have first hand experiences with a serious sociopath, and I am convinced since the late 90s that we are dealing with an increasingly sociopathic basis in society.

      In particular, narcissistic / borderline personality disorders are on the increase. It is estimated that around 15% of adults in the US alone show these traits, and these are only the official numbers!

      A society that is promoting narcissism comes on top of all that, we live in the ME age, and it is promoted as a good thing.

      Sociopathic people lack empathy and often operate with a faked personality, and there is no contradiction in our business world that they can become highly successful and climbing the ranks.

      I am not astonished in the least!

      • cooldude

        The corporate structure is designed to promote such an attitude. This all follows from an educational system which rewards regrurgitation of irrelevant facts. Our society is being programmed to only accept mainstream facts. Think outside the box and more importantly feel ouside the box

        • Adam Byrne

          Stephen, Georg and cooldude, you are all exactly right. This shit needs to change. I could easily be of those who you are describing above because I am a ruthless person but maybe I have just enough decency inside me to resist the allure of the dark side. I am not giving in to that, I don’t know what to do exactly right now but I am just watching and waiting and when I make my move my conscience will be clear. There are a lot of good people in here and the guidance is good. David deserves a lot of credit for this. He is a truly good man.

          • bonbon

            Better to have clear banking laws back in place instead of waiting for a moral breakout. Clear red-lines ala Glass-Steagall. Then hard nosed bankers can get on with real banking. And resolute industrialists can get credit for upgrading.

            Hey its tough out there. Cry babies just won’t cut it.

        • Of course this is interconnected and truly a culturally driven. Think about it, if chaps like Bill Cullen have an Idol for our youth, the phenomenal success of UK/US produced shows like “The Apprentice”, it tells you a lot about socially accepted and expected behavior on your route to success.

          Personally I think, if a “healthy” person would see this show for the first time, he/she would be ore than likely disgusted at what they see. People backstabbing, re writing history, creating lies, cheating, taking advantage, and essentially prostituting themselves in front of a voyeuristic audience. It is just one of many phenomenons of the sociopathic ME age.

          The smallest unit of any healthy society, what do you think should that be?

          It used to be the family, right? Not so anymore, the much desired smallest unit of society is a single professional consumerist.

          The link between IMF enforced programs and premature death due to healthcare cuts, increase of suicides and so much more is all well documented. In a way these guys, the IMF and the Troika, are the Ueber-Bill-Cullen version.

          Now, is anyone still astonished that the majority of people here bows to these sociopath’s and eats one after the other shit sandwich they serve?

          I am not.

    • bonbon

      It is much better to imprison these criminals under Glass-Steagall, and then they slowly begin to show remorse.

      Those waiting to observe such tearful remorse can drop by on visiting hours.

      Odd how psychologists just do not get it.

    • coldblow

      Hi Stephen

      I mentioned here a couple of times a fairly recent BBC Horizon programme about psychopaths, where it turned out that one of the leading researchers into the subject turned out to be one. There seems to be a nature (hereditary) element but also nurture. I think there is probably a fairly steady proportion of these in the population. A psychopath got off a murder charge in the US as he was not considered responsible for his condition. The programme argued that psychopaths are much over-represented in the corporate mgmt class. I agree that you can be pretty sure that the concentration at the top of the corporate pyramid is high. I imagine the same applies to all power structures.

      Another dimension is the human propensity to fit in with the values in your environment. I see this as largely an extravert trait, ie ‘what is is right’. I think the acquiescence of the majority of people in what was going on can best be shown in the usual response to reports of corporate criminality: “Good luck to them”, “If you raise taxes they’ll just take their money out of the country”, “I bet you’d do the same if you had the chance” etc. In those circumstances many people have few grounds for indignation now – unless they have short memories, which many seem to be blessed with.

      I wonder if psychopaths are exclusively from the extravert half of the population. It seems to depend on a personality that can readily adapt to the surrounding environment (ie extravert) but without the boundaries most people develop (some more than others) to keep them from corssing over the line.

      • coldblow

        “in prehistory tribal exclusion was tantamount to a death”

        In Don’t Sleep There Are Snakes about the Paraha people of the Amazon, a practically untouched tribe, this was indeed the fate of one couple who fell into disfavour with the rest of the small tribe.

        Malcolm McClure used to talk about Ireland being tribal – I think I might know what he meant and think it could be because it seems as a country to have extravert traits. It this is true (and I really don’t know – probably not) it would go a long way to explaining the aversion to objective discussion: everyone instinctively steps into line.

        • coldblow

          In the book, Everett (the author) describes his failure to teach the tribe to count beyond the number 2. He spent weeks at it. Say that one of them had been brought up in the US he’d have no problem, so it’s a cultural thing. Why count to 10 if nobody else in the tribe does? I think it’s all-important for an extravert to fit in with everyone else. It’s not “Can I do this” but rather “Nobody else does it”. Look at Big Brother for example. (The reason he wanted to teach them is because they were a sitting target for river traders to rip off.) Another phenomenon about the tribe is that their language does not allow for any concept of time beyond the present and immediate past. Partly for this reason Everett abandoned his attempt to convert them to Christianity as they would have no idea what happened last month let along 2,000 years ago.

          Now consider how much headway anyone would have made who tried to (1) convince an Irishman at the height fo the boom that the bubble would pop and (2) that history teaches that every boom result eventually in a bust. He’d be on his own and excluded from the tribe if he kept it up.

  34. Tony Brogan

    http://news.sky.com/story/960293/ulster-banks-it-meltdown-fixed-this-week

    Ulster bank goes through a dress rehersal of a bank holiday when the financial system implodes;
    no funding from ATM, no access to transactions, no access to bank accounts,

    Was it a computer glitch or something else covered up?

    do you still trust the banking system to deliver your money to you when you need it?

    • bonbon

      After the FT, FAZ repeatedly calling for Glass-Steagall on Jul-04 (!) I expect something to change especially after Barclays $800 billion bailout.

      FDR called a bank holiday. Is Britain capable of showing the same resolute action?

      • Tony Brogan

        For 12 years GATA has been going to the press with information on the price of gold and silver fixing. This directly relates to the fixing of credit flows and the fixing of interest rates.
        after one interview on CNN the media steadfastly refused to cover any disclosures even though the evidence disclosed was compeling.
        financial regulators refused to follow up allegations of fraud.
        Whistle blowers and insiders who came forward had their lives threatened and were ridiculed and then ignored.
        The Regulators have been conducting an investigation into silver manipulation and fraud for 4 years and yet are silent. JP Morgan has been under investigation for silver manipulation and naked short positions in extreemis (all illegal) and yet nothing is done and there are no results.
        government is in the know and is involved in the manipulation and so no action is taken.
        The fraud is endemic throughout business, Buffet and Gates, the regulators and government.

        The question to ask is why have these allegations on LIBOR surfaced now. What is the agenda. what are we being prepared for now. What is the next step in the grand fix. Are the PTB so arrogant now that they can operate in the open instead of the shadows.

        Are we being exposed to a catastrophe so that a new round of controls can be exercised against us. I see vast controls being put on the movement of capital and money. The individual will be unable to move funds from one country to another. There will be no escape to another jurisdiction. The noose will tighten, the net is cast and the draw strings are being gathered in. It is the last ploy for authoritarianism.

        BUT if the people, through knowledge and energy obtained through the internet, see what is going on it can yet be thwarted. People must assert their sovereign right to private property that is money. The central banking system and the fractional reserve system must be closed, shut down, destroyed. government monetary policy must be returned to treasury, honest money must be returned to the people.

        As has been pointed out, we are ruled by psychopathic characters both in government elected positions and in banking and industry. support those politicians yet speaking out like Nigel Farage and Ron Paul. Put integrity back in government and we may have a chance to turn this around.

        • bonbon

          LIBOR is the criminal system itself, enough so that it is clear we cannot survive with it. Many trillions of dollars have been creamed off while at the same time bailouts have been pumped in. Barclays is only part – this goes rithg through the entire system systemically.

          This is exactly why British elites have called for Glass-Steagall. Sure there is resistance, but this is the fight. As is made clear in Italy handing sovereignty to private agencies is what is happening. That private agency is basically LIBOR.
          That agency must be severed from any contact with commercial banking immediately.

  35. Thinking Outside The Box

    I have a thought that when understood might just indicate that all our woes were going to happen anyway .

    I have been studying three economic charts recently and their facts confirm just that .

    These charts are :

    1 The Juglar Cycle : and

    2 The Kuznets Cycle ( US Real Estates ) : and

    3 The Kondratieff Cycle ( The Long Wave ) .

    Could we be just fish talking in a fish bowl ?

    Also there is another interesting cycle known as The Sun Retrograde Cycle that lasts 180 years and last ended on April 20th, 1990 .This usually associated with Food Shortages , Earthquakes , Volcanoes and Floods ….and Rebellions.

  36. My calculations show that the next Boom Peak will be 2019 and its comparative previous date was 1965. So draw your own conclusions.

  37. Then on the other hand no other depression had a Banking Fraud Fiasco to disturb the Trend and maybe 2019 should be our Peak and might not be so .Therefore , 2019 will be a skipped opportunity or lost opportunity for the masses ‘Only’ , while others will Gain disproportionately. Another factor also is the World Population is enormously greater since those earlier booms.

    In that case 2050 may then be the next Peak Boom assumming we have solved the Banking Fraud by then.

  38. redriversix

    Good Morning

    with Banks fixing Libor rates and every other rate and being exposed as a scandal / criminal activity,I am sure this means that every Bank financial product sold was fraudulent,therefore any mortgages bought are in breach of contract and the purchaser surely has even more recourse and evidence to cancel their Banking contract and “renegotiate” their terms with said Banks…?……..Can Banks claim they did not know ? and if so what relevance is that to the customer ? surely they have a duty of care as how would the customer know what goes on in Banking circles ?

    Have a great day
    RR6

    • Manipulating Libor through lies to produce a false reported index is a “legitimate purpose.” The BBC’s position is that any financially troubled firm (or individual) can “legitimate[ly]” lie in order to deceive its creditors and investors and prevent them from learning that it is financially troubled.

      http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/07/the-bbc-as-apologist-for-lying-about-libor.html

      It fits into my comment above, and In one word: sociopathic

      http://www.hare.org/

    • Adam Byrne

      Great point RR6. I hope someone brings a test case. Shut all these banks down and start again.

      • bonbon

        Start the same thing all over again? Same result is guaranteed as Einstein quipped.

        Split them.

        • Adam Byrne

          No, not the same thing Mr. bonbon, of course not.

          • Adam Byrne

            An entire new system is required. Won’t happen though.

          • bonbon

            “Entirely new” will not happen – that’s Utopian. Splitting them is old fashioned, as London broker Terry Smith (below) says. And it worked. No magic. And Public Credit as Hamilton defined is not new, and it worked until like Glass-Steagall it was smashed by the monetarists who gave us this crisis.

          • Adam Byrne

            Fine Mr. bonbon but again, I just can’t see any of these positive changes happening. Maybe I’m just too pessimistic.

          • bonbon

            Business as usual is no officially over. Its gone too far for the UK and there are some there not infected with terminal pessimism prepared to move now. They have realized that neither the UK nor the USA can possibly survive unless the only possible and tested principle is applied a.s.a.p.

      • redriversix

        Thank you Adam

        is it just me or as this crisis worsens with no end in sight has Apathy grown to new heights ?

        Our National Broadcaster seems to be even more off the mark in reporting the crisis,or has the term “crisis” lost all meaning from over use ?

        To me,it seems quite incredible to observe this over the last several weeks.

        Best
        RR6

    • Dorothy Jones

      Hedley Byrne Heller; bank gave advice knowing that it would be acted on. Same principle applies here; case in 2006 against an agent for inaccuracies re floor area for a premises in Gardiner Street. So can be done. New Beginnings are continuing with test cases based on similar.

  39. bonbon

    Maybe the flood-gates are opening – LIBOR is likely the tipping point. The best-laid plans of mice and men are about to be blown away.

    BAROFSKY: BREAK UP THE BANKS AND HANDCUFF BANKERS

    July 14, (LPAC)–Neil Barofsky, former Inspector General of the TARP program, gave an interview on Friday, July 13 to Bloomberg TV, in which he called for criminal prosecutions of both the bankers who rigged the Libor rates and the regulators who covered up the crimes. Barofsky zeroed in on Tim Geithner, who was President of the New York Fed from 2005-2008, pointing out that, based on the memos that Geithner sent to the Bank of England in June 2008, it was clear that he knew, in detail, what the Libor rigging was all about. If all he did was to send an email, Barofsky continued, then this is equally a scandal for the regulators. The regulators are complicit, as has already been alleged in England. Clearly referencing Geithner’s lack of action, Barofsky emphasized that the regulators allowed criminal activities to continue.

    “It is a significant act of deception if the regulators were aware and did nothing.” Barofsky ran down a string of serious crimes that have been committed in the Libor rigging, including cheating counterparties, and securities fraud. “I want to see indictments,” he declared. He warned that banks like JPMorgan Chase and Citigroup, who were both on the Libor rate setting committee, committed outright criminal acts. But the government lacks leverage over these too big to fail institutions, because criminal prosecutions of these banks would bring down the whole system. He warned that this will happen over and over again, until we break up the big banks and put people in handcuffs. “This was a scheme to defraud. This is textbook securities fraud,” he concluded.

  40. bonbon

    NEW YORK TIMES NOTES OLDLINE LONDON BANKER FOR GLASS-STEAGALL

    JULY 14, (LPAC)–The New York Times’ DealBook blog, edited by Andrew Ross Sorkin, lamented on July 13 that “the once-stodgy world of London banking is losing its old-school ways,” with the mega-takeovers and outsized derivatives business. The Times interviewed Alexander S. Hoare, a managing partner at C. Hoare & Company, which first opened its doors in the City in 1672 and is the last and oldest of the family-owned banks. “We have seen a highly alien culture creep into all these big banks,” he bitterly complained. The same DealBook quoted Terry Smith, the CEO of the London brokerage firm Tullett Prebon, who worked for years at Barclays, and has recently openly called for Glass-Steagall total separation. Smith told the Times, “When you combine investment banks with commercial banks, the investment bankers always end up in charge. By splitting them, you would get stronger commercial banks and better investment banks, and if that takes us back to a bygone age, well, there is nothing wrong with that.”

  41. bonbon

    Over at the DT, a relatively clear overview of the court battle in Germany over the ESM.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/9390719/Germans-in-court-battle-to-block-eurozone-bailouts.html

    Its all over the German press, and the idea of throwing out the Constitution is times of crisis, as Judge Carl Schmitt theorized in 1933 ( a hero of many US judges, authors )
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Schmitt
    is clearly given the thumbs down.

  42. bonbon

    Libor Fraud: Is the City Targetting Mervyn King Because of the Glass-Steagall Fight?

    July 14 (EIRNS) — The {Financial Times} has a one page feature today profiling the Bank of England’s behavior and alleged indirect responsibility on the LIBOR rigging. The article puts both Mervyn King and his deputy, Paul Tucker, in a bad light and says that changes for Tucker to succeed King as governor next year are now weakened, whereas chances are rising for Adair Turner, chairman of the Financial Service Authorities (the City) because of the publication “of a damning letter he [King] wrote to the chairman of Barclays in April.”

    King’s sympathy for banking separation is known. Turner has been on record as being against a Glass Steagall type separation, for instance here:

    http://www.fsa.gov.uk/library/communication/speeches/2009/0327_at.shtml.

  43. bonbon

    @RR6, the question of mortgages is dealt here
    http://larouchepac.com/node/23335
    and the sheer scale.

    LIBOR began with the London Big Bang, is a criminal activity in itself. TIBOR, HIBOR all are based on this.

    It is part of the interest rate swap, rating agencies and mortgage backed securities.

    Very good question you posed above.

    • redriversix

      It is illegal to buy or sell stolen property , ignorance is a very poor defense.So if a contract price is agreed on a rate which is now being exposed as fraud,then all “good faith” contracts would be worthless as they are not based on anything………Stands to reason that if “Barclay’s” were guilty of such action , then all Banks would act the same , after all,their actions to date have generally gone unpunished,even the fines they receive are a pittance to their profits,so it pays to “bend” the rules.I am pretty sure they would have actuaries working out risk on such gambles…….

  44. bonbon

    Interestingly just as LIBOR hits, this :

    Queen’s Coutts Bank Involved in German Tax Evasion

    July 14 (EIRNS)–The state government of North Rhine Westphalia has bought a disk from a Swiss informant with about 1,000 names of Germans holding bank accounts at the Zurich branch of Coutts Bank, the house bank of the British Queen. The disk, which was bought for EU3.5 million, is expected to provide evidence of tax evasion adding up to a sum in the three-digit dimension, by wealthy Germans–likely also including German nobility.

  45. bonbon

    Considering the criminal banking system, what does LIBOR mean for incurred debts? I think DMcW could expand on the effect of this on th “odius debt burden”. It looks like a mafia operation. So what is FG/LP doing stringing for the Godfather’s Godfather ?

    LIBOR actually stands for “London Interbank Offer You Can’t Refuse.” The mafia obviously learned everything they know from today’s international bankers: First they throw a brick through your storefront window (you are forced to sell a LIBOR-pegged floating rate bond in order to borrow money); and then they come around the next morning to offer you protection (an interest rate swap, which sticks you with a fixed-rate instrument which bleeds you dry).

    Oh, by the way, there {is} no interbank market anymore, in any event. As the London {Economist} noted cheerily in their July 14 print edition, “the unsecured interbank funding market, which is supposed to be where banks borrow from each other, is frozen solid. In the euro area in particular, banks are lending almost no money to one another… At the moment banks have more than 800 billion euros parked at the ECB, where it earns no interest. LIBOR and EURIBOR measure an activity that barely exists.

    • bonbon

      Here is the other side of the criminal financial system – drugs – as reported in the latest Internet edition of Red Star, the daily magazine of the Russian armed forces, in an article on the presentation of Viktor Ivanov, Director of the Federal Narcotics Service of Russia, in Peru and Argentina. The article goes through his description of the growth in the global narcotics trade, including heroin from Afghanistan and cocaine from Latin America. Red Star notes that even with 130,000 NATO troops in Afghanistan, only about 4% of the heroin traffic has been confiscated and destroyed. It also describes how heroin use is proliferating among the Russian youth.

      It then notes how the money has become the major source of income in the wo+rld financial system. “According to the figures of the UN and the World Bank, the drug mafia extracts from the drug trade $500-800 billion yearly. These gigantic sums are swallowed quite willingly by the banks, strapped with a chronic lack of liquidity because of the economic crisis. So, if not directly, then indirectly, the banks are interested in the drug mafias. Therefore, it’s necessary to revamp the world financial system in order to impose a barrier on the dirty money.”

      So LIBOR and heroin, the twins of a totally bankrupt system. Is it any wonder HSBC (the old heroin bank) is under investigation?

  46. Tony Brogan

    http://www.gata.org/node/11573

    Ron Kirby on how libor is the tip og the iceberg,
    He Shows the relationship to the interest rate supression and the gold price manipulation.
    The connection between the policies of the Fed, the government and JP Morgan as the Fed/government banker.
    Barkleys Bank perhaps tried to do the right thing in 2007 before the collapse of Leemann!!
    Who is not involved in setting and manipulating interest rates and market activity?

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