June 11, 2012

Rome Rule V London Rule

Posted in Sunday Business Post · 261 comments ·
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Do you remember the expression: ‘Boston or Berlin?’ The question concerned whether Ireland was closer to America or Germany. To anyone who cared to examine the choice properly, the evidence – culturally, linguistically, economically, genetically, historically and investment-wise – has always been Boston.

However, politically we are in Berlin’s orbit, so when it comes to playing politics, Germany is enormously important – but in every other aspect of Irish life, it is of less consequence.

Germany matters politically and therefore Germany’s next move matters hugely. Germany will choose to break up the euro to protect itself and other like-minded countries. As a result, the likely next big choice for Ireland in the next few years will not be Boston or Berlin, but Rome or London.

Historically, Rome rule versus London rule has a nice ring to it. In this decade of centenaries, there is a certain symmetry here.

One possible endgame for the euro is that it will split into a hard euro and a soft euro at Germany’s behest. The hard one will be the countries around Germany in the core. The soft countries will be those of us in bailout land, which will be Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy, with Greece grafted on because no one knows what to do with their problems, not least the Greeks themselves.

This weekend, all eyes are fixed on Spain’s deal. But this is a mere skirmish. The bigger picture is one where the European economy is split between the German zone and the rest.

Bailouts merely use public money to replace the private money that is fleeing the periphery to make sure the countries on the periphery don’t run out of cash. Bailouts have no hope of working in the medium term, because the only way that Europe will rebalance itself is by a big currency devaluation on the periphery. We all know this; it’s so obvious.

However, groupthink is taking over again. Before we plough on with what next for the euro and Ireland, a few thoughts on groupthink. In the boom, a shocking case of groupthink emerged with regard to the housing market and the credit-fuelled boom in Ireland. Lots of so-called ‘sensible’ people believed and espoused utter drivel – and they rounded on those who warned that the economy would crash, with calamitous consequences.

The groupthink ensured that most people in positions of power, whose opinions backed each other up, couldn’t see what was coming down the tracks. They simply couldn’t countenance the alternative.

Today there is a similar groupthink with the euro. The so-called serious people in Ireland can’t countenance the end. They can’t see that the euro is – and has been for about five years – a “dead currency walking”. They are in their own new bubble. It is not a housing bubble, it’s an intellectual bubble, and it will be pricked by reality. As the great economist JK Galbraith said: “The enemy of conventional wisdom isn’t other great ideas, but events.”

The ‘events’ in Europe are moving so quickly that mass default is likely, unless a proper solution is sorted quickly. The eurozone has the potential to bankrupt Germany. Germany knows it has to save the system, but knows that monetary imperialism has its costs.

Germany also knows that bailouts aren’t working. Anything patched together for Spain this weekend will only buy a bit of time. Like our bailout and the others, these infusions of cash, combined with austerity are not permanent solutions.

A notable development is that each bailout, intervention or default buys less and less time with more and more money.

Spain’s ultimate capitulation will also signal the unravelling of Italy. Already, Mario Monti, the imposed technocrat, is deeply unpopular and profoundly ineffective. The domestic economy in Italy – which is a proper economy that makes things – is grinding to a halt. New car sales in Italy fell by more than 20 per cent last month.

The most likely solution will involve a two-speed Europe with two euros, one centred on Berlin and Paris and the other centred on Rome and Madrid. There is no way the Germans will allow us near their new hard euro. We will be firmly in the soft currency, whether we like it our not.

The Germans and French – as they were in 1992 – will be ambivalent as to whether the Irish go back to their natural financial home with Britain – with our stated mutual love of no tax on financial transactions and low corporation tax – or whether Ireland hangs out with the Catholic axis of Madrid/Rome and Lisbon.

Indeed, by 2016, Unionists looking on the Rising commemorations may well feel vindicated – because Home Rule may well mean not quite Rome Rule but, at the very least, a Rome axis may be possibility.

Down here, some Europhiles will actually support Rome over London.
But unless the Irish government’s Europhilia has reached ludicrous delusional proportions, a new Irish punt suspended somewhere between London and both the euros is the only viable option.

Germany will be happy because it doesn’t care what we do. It would be one less hassle. Brussels will concede a cheap victory to London and we will do what we have always done, take what we are given and get on with it, keeping our corporation tax low and admitting to ourselves that we are what we have always known we are, an Atlantic entity, with good relations with the continent.

That will be our choice – London or Rome.For the EU, a new softer euro would be a great move for the integrationists. It allows them to snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat. It would allow the weaker countries to devalue against the stronger ones, thus going some way to rectifying the competitive imbalances at the core of Europe. It would allow countries like Poland, the Baltics and Croatia – as well as further east in the Balkans – to join the weaker euro and give them time to adjust to the rigours of Italy, not Germany.

So ‘project Europe’ goes on. The defeat allows a more democratic solution for the rest of non-eurozone Europe and it gives a united Europe more impetus just at a time when the project was stalling.
For Ireland, the ludicrous choice would be to put Rome ahead of London. But stranger things have happened.

The key is to look beyond the immediate crisis and see it as being the result of bad planning, rather than the cause of something new. The result of this bad planning is that we go back to proper foundations based on economic and financial ties. We will be given the choice of Rome or London, I know where I would prefer to be.

David McWilliams will be speaking at www.dalkeybookfestival.org next weekend


  1. Lius

    Berlin is running a calculation of the risk of the re-capitalization investment, or, cost of bailouts bond v bond repayments to German Banks.

    The Germans will pull the plug the minute the odds turn against them and put us into liquidation and take what ever they can get from what is left.

  2. mediator

    I think you are wrong on this David,

    Federal Europe was and is the endgame.

    This is about politics above economics

    Lets see…

    • joe hack

      hi
      mediator,

      “This is about politics above economics”
      I agree politics cultures and history will call most of the shots

      I dont know if the your endgame can work just yet it may in time with a new generation

  3. dwalsh

    “Germany will choose to break up the euro to protect itself and other like-minded countries”

    Do you really think Germany will commit economic suicide? Because that is what your suggestion (and it seems to me your hope) would mean for Germany.

    Why is David always pushing for the destruction of the Euro and Europe?

    • Don’t think he is. More pushing for the survival of Ireland.

    • Dear dwalsh,

      I think the Euro is a great currency for countries suited to it, in terms of trade/investment population movements etc. We are not. I hope this isn’t coming across as anti-EU because that’s not the intention.

      Best
      D

      • taylorcr

        Its not even great for those who are suited to it, you would well know that every single currency union in history has broken apart, lots of them were suited. One currency for one country thats the age old system thats always worked, why anyone would imagine that they could fight history with this experiment that was doomed to fail.

        The countries that could do a union would be Austria, Switzerland and Germany. Because they speak the same language so they could form a federal bloc.

        No federal system is ever going to work when you have language blocking free movement of labour, free movement of labour is as important as fiscal transfers to balance regional differences.

        We would have been more successful having a currency union with Australia than the totally disparate European countries. It wouldnt work either but we would be better suited to it. We have 5 times more Irish moving there to work than we have in the whole of Europe (Excl. UK), in fact when you combine the UK & Oz over 10 times more Irish emigrate there than the whole of the EU15, that on its own tells how successful a federal Europe would be, which we are very clearly not suited to, that’s not my opinion the emigration stats supply the facts that are glaringly obvious.

        • joe hack

          I agree that culture has always had an effect on the way politics works or doesn’t work that is what was disused in my history subject at primary school over 40 years ago-when we were learning about the Prussian wars, the EU policies makers should read their history books again.

        • bonbon

          I am simply astounded. In one sweeping statement you propose a new Anschluss (remember that?) and Switzerland in “bloc”. Swizerland has 4 national languages, and all of them say no to the EU.

          Methinks some need to travel a bit more, read some history.
          To make it easy for English speakers :
          http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/26730/Anschluss

          • taylorcr

            I can assure you I travel a lot more than you, I do business in all those areas and I’m there every month. I spend as much time in the Italian south as I do in the Germanic north.

            Can you actually understand what I have written, I am not proposing they go into a bloc, I am saying that if they wanted to make a bloc that is the only one with any similarities. I dont think they should make a bloc at all, I was using it as an example that if they cant/wont do it with those countries what are we even considering doing it ourselves with Germany, Estonia, Portugal etc etc.

            Switzerland is one of the worlds most fiercely independent countries, they are hardly going to join a union with anyone.

            Next time consider context before blurting out….

          • Tony Brogan

            Hi taylorcr

            Bullseye!!

          • bonbon

            “The countries that could do a union would be Austria, Switzerland and Germany. Because they speak the same language so they could form a federal bloc”.

            What kind of talk is that then? Try it in German in Bern, Munich or Vienna. It is just like Cameron saying yesterday, more Federal Europe, but Britain will play no part. Odd the similar understatement, what?

      • dwalsh

        It does come across that way to me; but I accept what you say.

        Ireland on its own in today’s piratical financial anarchism would be completely at the mercy of speculative finance capital. I would see that as a bad thing. But perhaps some might not; especially those who believe the neoliberal nonsense about free markets etc.

        Germany needs the padding of the peripheral states for a number or reasons; not least being that its very strenght would be used by the financial parasites to destroy it.

        The only way forward IMO is for Europe to unite. But even that wont work unless something radical is done about the financial markets.

        • bonbon

          Correct- DMcW is assuming that London is somehow immune to the oncoming tsunami.

          Banco Santander, Inter-Alpha number 1, squats on the City. And Eire thinks it has problems?

        • Tony Brogan

          YOUR SHOT AGAINST FREE MARKETS NEEDS EXAMINATION. DO YOU PROPOSE UNFREE MARKETS, ONES THAT ARE REGULATED , CONTROLLED AND MANIPULATED. LOOK A LITTLE CLOSER AND THAT IS ACTUALLY WHAT YOU HAVE. TO SUGGEST FREE MARKETS ARE A PROBLEM OR ARE THE PROBLEM IS WRONG AS WE HAVE NOT HAD FREE MARKETS FOR GENERATIONS.

          A FREE MARKET WOULD ALLOW ANY ONE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WISH. TO BUY, TO SELL, TO INVEST OR DISINVEST WITH FREE CHOICE. THESE DAYS THERE ARE PREFERENTIAL RULES, SUBSIDIES, POLITICAL INTERFERENCE, CRONYISM AND NACENT FASCISM.

          RETURN THE MARKETS TO FREEDOM AND PERHAPS THE ECONOMIES COULD SORT THEMSELVES OUT. CONSTANT MONETARISM BY CENTRAL BANKS ESPECIALLY SCINCE 1972 HAS RESULTED IN A MYRIAD OF DISTORTIONS RESULTING IN A COLLAPSING ECONOMY AND RISING INFLATION.

          THE LATEST IS MANIFEST IN BANK BAILOUTS BY SOVEREIGN STATES BACK BY A SOMNAMBULENT POPULATION.

          EUROPE CAN UNITE AS A FREE TRADE AREA BUT MONETARY POLICY SHOULD BE LOCAL. EVEN A LARGBE COUNTRY LIKE CANADA HAS SEVERAL ECONOMIES AND A SINGLE MONETARY POLICY DOES NOT WORK WELL. IMBALANCES ARE TRIED TO BE REDRESSED BY EQUALIZATION PAYMENTS FROM “RICH” PROVINCIES TO POORER ONES. THIS IS TOLERATED BUT GIVES RISE TO FRICTIONS AS SOME BELIEVE THAT WHAT IS SUBSIDISED ONLY INCREASES.

          IRELAND WILL BE BEST SERVED BY STEPPING ASIDE AND HAVING ITS OWN CURRENCY AND MONEY SYSTEM. BE TIED TO NO OTHERS APRON STRINGS. HOWEVER THERE IS NOT THE CONFIDENCE IN IRELAND TO GO IT ALONE AS IS ICELAND OR A COUNTRY LIKE NEW ZEALAND.

          • bonbon

            Let’s tone it down a little, shall we?

          • taylorcr

            Thats exactly what we need to be, a small flexible country, with our own monetary policy, currency and culture within a large trading bloc which we have done reasonably well in exploiting in the past.

            Its amazing how quickly everyone forgets that, thats exactly what we were only 12 or so yrs ago and we were a much happier, safer and more balanced economy, upgrading our standard of living on real income growth and not the mirage that the euro has created.

            Why people are scared to go back to that is strange.

        • Realist

          > But perhaps some might not; especially those who
          > believe the neoliberal nonsense about free markets
          > etc.

          Do you really believe companies like Dunnes Stores, Kerry Foods, my local barber, Google, Amazon, Intel, Apple, … care about your non-free government controlled markets ?
          They just look for countries where they can more freely do their own business.
          All private businesses (read as producer and advancer of today’s world) want freedom, less taxing, less political leaches (politicians and public spending) on their back.
          Do you really believe businesses care about politicians more than just to be allowed to do businesses?
          With the corrupted state in place, of course, you have the bribery, pattent laws, anti-monopoly laws and all that nonsense, that would not exist in free markets and libertarian societies.

          At the moment Ireland has some edge on many other countries due to the slightly better free market rating.
          If Ireland is to do even better it should go more free market way so the whole society prosper.

          • Tony Brogan

            Nice shooting pardner

          • bonbon

            I get the feeling you have read some of the Agrarians “I’ll take my stand”?

            Do I really see a confederacy all over again?

          • Realist

            I wish I understand what you are talking about bonbon :)

          • bonbon

            The pardner has taken to study of the Agrarians. Look it up – land and gold. It represents a type of economy we had in full view in 1860. We had a war over this.

            The economics of that grouping, is startlingly parallel to Austrian School teachings. Stunningly similar.

        • tony_murphy

          Line up for your chip DWalsh and your vaccinations. The satanic globalist criminals banksters controlling Europe did a good job brain washing you.

          Don’t expect the likes of me to comply though. To HELL with the EURO and the EU

      • Pissing into the wind brother unless you know dwlash personally.

        Always amused with no de plumes

        Let’s play a wee guessing game. Economists love games

        Dorothy Walsh?
        Declan Walsh?
        Master D.W. Alsh?
        Miss D.W Lash?

        Please note this is a multiple choice answer where there may be more than one correct answer

      • Ach David you are awful man for swinging the lead some days

  4. And so it will come to pass.

    We’ve only 4 million people and we should be able to eke a decent living out of the 63 million next door.

    At least the British will eat our produce instead of chucking it into the sea and a Nissan from Sunderland is just as well built these days as a Merc.

    And we could become the vaunted springboard for the Sino launch into European markets. Now that would really tee off the lads and lassies in Bonn.

    We also supply a critical amount of high end professionals to the Square Mile, who are respected for their nous and efforts.

    Someone asked me over the weekend how tough would leaving the Euro be and I told him we had experienced that event over the last four years.
    Mass unemployment and emigration, family’s on the breadline, high taxes, a rusty healthcare system, solid businesses going to the wall through lack of funds.

    Just because the big boys won’t admit they’re wrong (and because their personal wealth is denominated in Euros.

    Who’s to say but that a new Irish currency would trade above the weak Euro?
    Anyone thought of that?

    Even if leaving the Euro meant a say, 35% devaluation, that won’t affect the bulk of Irish people who have less than 100 Euro per week to survive on, or in many cases, much less.

    If Paddy is the only one on the boat who can see the Iceberg, then legging it into the first lifeboat might be a cuter move, even if it’s flying the rd ensign.

    At least we’d be dry, if a bit cold.

  5. And not a mention of USA in all this ! Our big brother has a huge stake on Ireland – all their top companies – we are their gateway to. Europe – do you honestly believe Germany would say Ireland your euro is worth less than ours without any input about this decision from the USA ? make no mistake Europe needs USA and we are the 51st state strategically located in everything but name and common currency – big brother will be watching this space carefully and nothing will happen to Ireland without going through them

    • bonbon

      As I pointed out above DMcW may be seriously underestimating London’s problem. But even that is small potatoes compared to the FED’s.

  6. wills

    I agree with the first 9 paragraphs and then David, with utmost respect as always you conflate the issue with bailouts and euro dead currency and elites running things.

    Firstly, you say..

    ‘Bailouts merely use public money to replace the private money that is fleeing the periphery to make sure the countries on the periphery don’t run out of cash. Bailouts have no hope of working in the medium term, because the only way that Europe will rebalance itself is by a big currency devaluation on the periphery. We all know this; it’s so obvious.’

    SPOT ON. This is what the insiders are doing with the public monies.

    Then you mix in the group think – wishful thinking underway from them on euro durability.

    Now, lets look at that one.

    The insiders / crony networks in the PIIGS used the euro to launch a ponzi property bubble. They creamed the euro. The facts are in. The banking system in the PIIGS broke all the rules and exploited the euro and creamed it in to a property bubble beyond their wildest dreams.

    Then, the same crony networks moved into the next stage of the bubble scam and as your article points out sued public monies to patch up the destruction of the economy their ponzi property bubble racket did to the economy.

    Now, surely, it is not beyond reason to conclude there is a stage 3 here. And it is the insider crony networks returning to their old currency now that the euro has been fleeced.

    So, on the contrary, the insiders running things evidently so, the proof is in could not give a damn about the euro and will dump it when the euro has been completely and utterly debased into oblivion. These same insider syndicates will run to a new currency and begin the same shyster operation again.

    The euro is not the problem.

    The euro is in fact incredible success.

    The problem is the insiders pulling the levers in the banking system creaming the real economy.

    • bonbon

      The transatlantic financial system was an incredible success right up to its implosion. Numbers never before seen, peole casually chatting over a pint about billions, taking the plunge with trillions. Fantastic wealth!

      I’m just quoting Britannica 2020.

    • bonbon

      The transatlantic financial system was an incredible success right up to its implosion. Numbers never before seen, people casually chatting over a pint about billions, taking the plunge with trillions. Fantastic wealth!

      I’m just quoting Britannica 2020.

  7. wills

    Type – *sued* should read *used*

  8. stevedublin

    “We will be given the choice of Rome or London, I know where I would prefer to be.”

    London?

  9. Deco

    How about if we stay in pull away from the Brussels nonsense factory, have an independent currency pegged to the Euro (because Sterling will eventually get caught out) and adopt a Swiss approach ?

    What would Switzerland do ?

    I am not in favour of mortgaging what is left of our sovereignty to a Britain which borrows as much every year, as a percentage of GDP as Greece does. It might not make sense either in the medium term.

    • “I am not in favour of mortgaging what is left of our sovereignty”.

      Deco, absolutely agreed. No point jumping out of the Troika pan into a Sterling fire, notwithstanding the unpalatable political connotations but surely a new Irish currency would have more in common with sterling than the Eurogroup?

      Taylorcr makes an interesting point above.
      Why not start our own “Commonwealth” based around what is quite a powerful diaspora?

      The world is now a small and instant place. Since we are this small open economy, create trading links to those countries that actually want us, instead of begging off the masters table.

      Just thinking outside the Trough.

    • Reality Check

      Latvia had a successful internal devaluation with the “Lat” currency pegged to the Euro- they are are enjoying a growth rate of 5%.
      One big difference – they cut Public sector wages and waste massively.
      We have the Croke Park agreement – htere will be no recovery until the CPA is torn up.
      http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/latvias-internal-devaluation-a-success-story

    • bonbon

      Well Switzerland has held diverse cantons, languages together for 700+ years. And diverse religions.
      Now look what Eire must do – it is obvious. And the time is now as the imperial finance crumbles.

      Unfortunately Switzerland has its UBS fingers in the debacle too. But that’s only a bank.

    • Tony Brogan

      Have an independent currency that is INDEPENDENT pegged to nothing.
      Independent people need independence in all things.
      no problem in being a good neighbour. Get along fine with all others but walk your own road.
      Ireland could be the tax free haven entry to europe.

      • Realist

        Exactly.
        Just slight correction to say in plural, independent currencies, allow multiple competing currencies and allow people to choose what to use.

        • Tony Brogan

          Yes silver coin is the alternative. Let the people choose. As posted, I have an easily implemented plan.
          Actually if someone wants to use anothers currency there is no problem with that. The US started with Spanish dubloons and pieces of eight.

  10. Deco

    I do not think that there will be a Berlin-Paris line of consensus.

    Very soon we will see Paris veer down the Rome-Madrid approach. Hollande is about to get a majority in the National Assembly, and will veer away from Merkel’s austerity approach towards the Latin stimulus, centralized state in control, “currency printing to fill the gap” approach. Which incidentally was the French approach under Mitterand.

    It will not be a two speed Europe. It will be a multispeed Europe. Slovakia has a higher probability of lasting in the same currency zone as Germany, than France has – and that is being honest about it.

    We are better that we chart our own sensible approach to this. But with the needs of the Irish establishment, always being prominent, you can be certain that “sensible” is the one word that will never be any form of consideration to any policy framework. Vested interests have trumped the needs of the people since CJH first started the social partnership. This is not going to stop.

    Prepare yourselves accordingly.

    • bonbon

      Holland will now have so much expected, apparently the radical left are not necessary, that he has no excuse for not delivering.

      Pressure!

  11. Philip

    Great article and it describes the medium term game very well. I wish I knew how to make a decent killing out of it.

    The “groupthink” is a well know phenomenon and after looking at a review of a little book I am going to read “Wilful Blindness” – http://www.mheffernan.com/book-wb-reviews.shtml I am now convinced more than ever that this whole exercise is an insider manipulated. And it is not for any particular sinister reason – it is just what speculators do and we are nearing the end of a part of the monopoly game where someone gets to own Europe and North America. The next stage is the mopup of the BRICS.

    I think to suggest that Europe will start to rev up after we sort out hard/soft euro arrangement in Europe etc is yet more “conventional” wisdom on booms and busts. There will be no boom coming any time soon in the EU. The whole point of this exercise is to bring Asia comfortably into shorting territory before they get their “domestic economies” rolling. Speculators can only be speculators after all.

    Where Ireland fits in? I suppose we have no choice but roll with the punches. It is not looking good at all.

    • wills

      Sinister reasons????

      Eh??

      Insides rigging the system, profiting on insider deals and passing the cost onto the sick, the old, the young etc, surely this is sinister enough.

      The stuff like using bonds which is stealing from the new generation, this kind of stuff is sinister surely??

  12. SLICKMICK

    http://www.independent.ie
    Seanie Fitz stayed in a €500 hotel for the match last night. Look @ the state of him.Not bad for a bloke on the dole.

  13. mediator

    I’ll say it again, this is engineered for a predetermined outcome a la shock doctrine.

    Financial and some Economic collapse followed by here’s one we made earlier solution.

    Euro may very well crash but that will only be to create shock, then we’ll have a fiscal union presented as the only proper long term solution with wither existing Euro or new Euro if there was a brief period where we return to national currencies.

    regards

  14. JJ Tatten

    Hilarious take on banks and bankers from Charlie Brooker: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/12/banknotes-not-worth-their-paper

    A small taster: “Money is broken, and until we admit that, any attempts to fix the economy seem doomed to fail. We’re like passengers on a nosediving plane thinking if we all fart hard enough, we can lift it back into the sky. So should we be storming the cockpit or hunting for parachutes instead? I don’t know: I ran out of metaphor after the fart gag. You’re on your own from hereon in”

    • Tony Brogan

      get out the parachutes and hang on to silver coin,
      gold coin and land.

      • bonbon

        That’s the Agrarians! Plantations with slaves to till the land? Some can pursue happiness?

        • Tony Brogan

          Bon bon
          another Totally misalligned statement

          To survive you will need money that is not subject to the destruction of hyperinflation and enough land to be able to feed yourself.

  15. joe hack

    Mr. McWilliams,

    Great article and topic,

    If only there was away to make it PROVOCATIVE to get this debate started?

    Our country needs a discourse David article above.

    I hope you continually keep the above topic as much as you possibly can in all you coming articles.

    WHERE DO WE WANT TO BE?

    Culturally, are EU countries ready to advance integration-governances- taxes- loss of sovereignty?

    If answer is no then the euro is dead, if answer is yes and very soon the euro may survive.

    Should we be debating this here in Ireland and Europe, or is it too late?

    As things stand now, it won’t be long before the Euro dead, who knows, if it may take a different shape in the future.

    Should government agencies start planning for the end of the euro- should the central bank start the printing press, if it has not already done so?

      • joe hack

        To a point maybe, but I don’t believe in high octane conspiracies theories – there may be politics at play in the back rooms of the EU, G7 and others, there is talk of a world central bank with sub continental banks we don’t even have a functioning ECB and since Noonan was there at that meeting it can’t be that important a talking shop

    • Realist

      > WHERE DO WE WANT TO BE?

      I would say where all people of Ireland want to be, just there, not where politicians want us to be.

      The only way to do that is to return the power to them, economic power, the power to decide to buy/sell goods and services freely.
      To decide what to buy, what schools should teach and look like, have competitive companies in each segments of life that works for their goodness.
      That is only possible if most of the public sector is privitised and competition allowed freely.

      • Tony Brogan

        ditto

      • bonbon

        Who is going to do that, for them pray tell? Who will hand over something?

        Please elaborate.

        • Realist

          I am believer in black swan events, something will change, click in people’s minds, so we somehow get rid of greedy politicians, or we might end up in a modern socialism/communism utopia :)
          Private sector with money (banks not included as they were never private really as monopoly is given to them by the state and central bank) might pull the trigger and say it is enough of this nonsense and this welfare state of affairs.
          Some country might break out from this nonsense too, leading other countries to go their way too.

          There are two opposing views, where you blame private sector for this mess, while I blame politicians that created the environment for inefficiency, fraud, bribery and lies.

    • Tony Brogan

      Start minting silver coin and put into circulation immediately. an easy plan makes it cost free for government and cost effective for the people.

      i’ll post it if you wish to read it.

      • bonbon

        If it is free for the Gov’t, it must be free for you a free person. Why wait for “some group” to do it?

        • Tony Brogan

          I and millions or others have acted on own behalf. The regulation that prohibits any other money than a euro to be legal tender needs repealing. Silver coin needs to be allowed to circulate as legal tender.Euro statute law prevents this and they will not change it. Another reason to exit the euro and have a sovereign currency.
          We are restricted as people from a choice, therefore not free.

  16. [...] David McWilliams » Rome Rule V London Rule. [...]

  17. happyboy

    10 points on the euro

    1. Madrid has just added €100 billion to its foreign liabilities. Until yesterday, euro-optimists were assuring us that Spain was nothing like Portugal or Greece, because its debt and deficit figures were so much lower. Not any more. Deutsche Bank is now says that Spain’s government debt will hit 97.2 per cent of GDP in 2014-15.

  18. happyboy

    10 points on the euro

    1. Madrid has just added €100 billion to its foreign liabilities. Until yesterday, euro-optimists were assuring us that Spain was nothing like Portugal or Greece, because its debt and deficit figures were so much lower. Not any more. Deutsche Bank is now says that Spain’s government debt will hit 97.2 per cent of GDP in 2014-15.

    2. It makes no sense to treat a debt crisis with more debt.

    3. Spain had been due to contribute €93 billion to the European Financial Stability Fund. That now won’t happen, which means that everyone else’s liability will increase commensurately.

    4. It makes no sense to treat a debt crisis with more debt.

    5. Spain is in no position to repay these loans, any more than Greece was. Its debts are growing faster than its economy, making eventual default a mathematical certainty.

    6. How predictable, yet how depressing all the same, to see the short-term market revival on the back of yet another bailout. The markets, as Allister Heath keeps saying, have become junkies, desperate for the next hit of government cash. Each high, of course, is briefer than the last; the craving soon returns. What a miserable excuse for capitalism.

    7. Most of the governments contributing to the bailout fund are themselves running deficits. Debt is being piled on debt. Europe is giving itself a transfusion, taking blood from one arm and pumping it into the other; and the tube is leaky.

    8. How many more times do these bank rescues have to fail? No previous bailout has had the intended effect; on the contrary, the countries which decreed the largest sums have suffered the worst downturns. What we should be doing is winding down the afflicted banks, converting bonds into equity, and forcing the shareholders and bondholders to take the consequences of their poor decisions rather than shuffling their losses off onto taxpayers.

    9. This isn’t really a bailout for Spain, of course. It’s a bailout for the euro. Europe is treating the tumour rather than the patient.

    10. It makes no sense to treat a debt crisis with more debt. This point is so important that I’m going to translate it for the benefit of any Spanish ministers who happen to be reading. Utilizar deuda para solucionar la crisis de la deuda es ilógico.

    • bonbon

      Never mind most ministers, like the Dail. Spanish people see what is happening. Rajoy is cosying up to the largest Vegas gambling operation.

      As in Eire, there is pessimism, practical pragmatic thinking, and in move the purveyors of “hospitality” to create “jobs”.

      Cervantes’ Don Quixote is a must-read!

  19. Either way, the €uro is doomed. Pace DMcW, there will be no two-tier €uro. Just Deutschmarks and an array of resurrected Drachmas, Pesetas, Lire, Punts, Escudos etc. All will be converted from €uros at one-to-one. Instantly, the Teutonic currencies will soar while the Med and Irish ones will plummet. No creditors will get paid, so everyone will be broke.

    But Europe will at last begin to normalise.

    • C21living

      Rubbish!

      Grrece will fall out of the EZ because the Troika will cut off the government’s money supply after the people vote for SYRIZA and other anti-bailout parties.

      Greece will be a spectacular mess and will reintroduce the Drachma. Things will not get better, because there will be practically civil war between those who wanted to stay in the EZ and those who wanted to leave. The bloated civil service will try to keep their paper-shuffling jobs. Tax evasion in the new Drachma will approach 100%. It’ll be a pathetic farce, and a million miles away from this naive boosterism about returning to your local currency and everything being just swell overnight.

      The citizenry of the EZ will witness the distress of the Greeks and nobody will want that to happen to their country. The overwhelming majority of citizens will want to stay in the EZ, not least to protect the value of the money in their pockets.

      The German public doesn’t want to save Spanish banks. But the Spanish people will accept austerity to stay in the EZ. Later, Spain and Portugal may fall out of the EZ too. But Ireland will double down, triple down efforts to stay in the core EZ. We will succeed, in that the Irish public will never, ever vote to leave the EZ.

      I had to listen to wafflers going on and on about how it’d be NO to the fiscal compact. Well guess what? It was YES! By a considerable margin.

      When Greece leaves the EZ and descends into farce, Ireland future in the EZ – I’m referring to the “German” or “hard” EZ because DMcW is making up convoluted rubbish suggesting there will be two EZs – will be totally secure.

      If the Irish had to vote to stay in the EZ or leave, the majority will vote to stay to protect the value of their wages, etc. End of!!

      • C21living

        BTW the Irish will whinge and moan about German control of Ireland, ze French telling us to harmonize our corporation tax, and the rest of it.

        But I’m 100% certain that when the Irish see what happens to Greece after it leaves the EZ, they’ll whinge and moan about EU control of Ireland via the Troika, etc. but they’ll just ‘get on with it’.

        Which is a euphemistic way of saying that they want to stay in the EZ and will hence submit themselves to Troika control for at least another 10 years, after which time our entire country will be re-aligned along core EZ lines.

        Like Estonia and Finland, Ireland is going to move out of the orbit of a neighbouring power centre – in our case London, in Estonia’s case Moscow, in Finland’s case Stockholm/Moscow – and fal into the orbit of Brussels, Strasbourg and Frankfurt.

        The recent YES vote is proof the process has begun. When the loser-ness of the PIGS who leave the EZ becomes apparent, our moving closer to core EZ norms in terms of laws, etc is certain.

        Why doesn’t DMcW write about the EZ-wide Banking Union, where banking laws would be harmonized across the EZ? That’d be fantastic for Ireland, Spain, etc. it’d mean we’d have regulations and enforcement of German and Dutch standard to stop the lawless, freewheeling shenanigans of our golf-club-swinging, pot-bellied bankers. We need more of these kinds of changes in this country, to make sure the recklessness of the Celtic Tiger never happens again.

        Ireland does NOT have a plan, other than Frankfurt’s plan.

        When you ask the people to vote they reveal that they know this to be the truth. Hence the YES to the fiscal compact ‘out of fear’, i.e. out of fear of the royal mess of things we’ll make of it if we leave the EZ project.

      • molly

        The Greek civil service wants to protect its self yes and so does the Irish civil service.
        This whole system be it in any country in Europe and possible the world wants to protect its self,every where is burning around them but they want to stay in the protected bubble .whos in the protected bubble,to many and there’s the problem the trough is drying up and the amount feeding at the trough is growing,
        So to feed the trough many people have to suffer,so why do we have to suffer,it must get to the stage when enough is enough.
        I am sick and tired of the do as I say government who clearly don’t care about the people who are in the majority but don’t feed from the same trough as they do.RR6 is right look after your self and your family first .

    • bonbon

      Then reconstruction on a massive scale can begin.

      We have to make up for bubbly tiger no-growth policies that have ruined the physical economy over 40 years.

      But good work if you can get it!

    • bonbon

      Yes normlise, but not to a past metric. Normalize to a future of massive reconstruction. Our standard measure is that future, all current activities to be measured on a scale no bankster could conceive of.

      And that old Tiger idea of “floating currencies” a favorite of the Inter-Alpha banks (Santander the largest totally dead), is over.

      No one seriously thinks those well worn monetary rules will survive the tsunami.

  20. michaelcoughlan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy6W-ZLYNHA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Hello David,

    Some time ago you posted about visiting Iceland. Any chance the next time you are there you might figure out if John Perkins is telling the truth in the video above?

    Good viewing.

  21. gizzy

    Whether you pro or anti Euro does not really make a difference. This is about facts. Euroland is too fragmented politically and culturally. It probably has about four seperate economic paces.

    Though I agree with Wills that the Bankers and Investors are key players in attacking the Euro, the fact is they can because of the structural defects in Euroland and Euroland cannot keep defending itself by Germany throwing money at it.

    Something big has to give whether we like it or not or voted yes or no.

    • C21living

      “Something big has to give”.

      It will – Greece will be out, very soon too. Greece will vote for anti-bailout parties on 17 June, and all funding to Greece will stop instantly. Greece will literally fall apart in civil conflict between those who wanted to stay in the EZ and those who effectively force Greece out of the EZ.

      We had a similar civil war in Ireland between 32-county partitionists and 26-county partitionists.

      All thes people who want to drop out of the EZ forget how such a devaluation will screw up peoples’ money in their pockets, rising costs of imports like petrol, diesel etc. The Irish people want their ‘independence’ but the moment they see petrol at the filling station at IR£3.50/litre they’ll have a f**king heart attack and turn their ire on those who took us out of the EZ!

      The civil conflict post-EZ is so predictable. Greece will be a perfect case.

      • gizzy

        Not sure of relevance of civil war politics, I do not think Greece dropping out or being kicked out or austerity ptogrammes are enough to save the Euro. The attacks on the currency will continue and it seems to be it has being under consistent attack since it was mooted as a possible replacement for the dollar.

        With or without Greece there are gaping structural defects.We may have no choice about leaving. Maybe you are right and Germany will contiuue to fund the euro and risk everything on funding a federal union. Only time will tell.

    • bonbon

      sees to me it is a ready made instrument of the Wall-Street/City. Perfect for their games.

  22. joe hack

    I don’t like Attaching links, but this might cheer up some who are having trouble waiting for climax

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/11/opinion/krugman-another-bank-bailout.html?_r=2&hp

  23. Deco

    It would seem know that trying to use this crisis to achieve a political goal, is leaving the crisis completely unsolved.

    We have a completely dishonest approach to problem solving in Brussels.

    Now some people are really getting into panic mode.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/john-bruton-if-the-eu-doesnt-act-decisively-we-could-lose-in-five-months-what-it-took-over-50-years-to-create-3136187.html

    Paradoxically, the things that they fear the most, like allowing countries more sovereignty, currency breakups, and perhaps even deflation combined with intelligent reform, will solve the problems and get everybody back in good understanding.

    The policies they advocate (political centralization) are only causing more aggravation and more time to be wasted.

    • C21living

      John Bruton’s view on the way things will pan out is far, far closer to the Elite plan for Europe than the DMcW or ‘Deco’ plan of ‘returning to sovereignty’.

      As I mentioned above, if Irish sovereignty means leaving the EZ and experiencing a devaluation of everyone’s salary for 30-40% overnight, then the Irish public will vote AGAINST, that’s right I said AGAINST returning to the punt.

      Ireland is going to stay in the EZ as the Banking Union harmonization of banking rules and regulations is rolled out, and even as a total Fiscal Union is formed.

      The Irish public will do what they’ve been doing for years – walk up and down town centres shopping and browsing, while the usual wheeze-boxes hand out pamphlets saying ‘no to the household charge’, ‘return to the punt’ and the majority of the public will politely decline.

      Some of the PIGS will fall out of the EZ, notably Greece, it’ll be a really big mess, and Ireland will double down efforts to remain in the EZ, sign up to the Banking Union, the Fiscal Union, the lot.

      John Bruton is a mouthpiece for this move.

      He’s a former Taoiseach and an EU Ambassador to the US, so I’ll put money on it it’ll go Bruton’s way, not DMcWs and Deco’s way of a breakup into a bunch of fractious competing little currency spaces.

        • mediator

          +1 but it’ll go brutons way because that was the original intention – give loan(s), wait till they can’t pay, then dictate terms.

          Nascent Fascism and Dictatorship

          • C21living

            I’m not agruing whethr it’s a good or bad thing, a United States of Europe.

            I’m saying the smart money is on Ireland signing up and knuckling down to ‘meeting the criteria’ or whatever, not cockamamie blue sky thinking about Punt Nuas, Sterling Pegs, Rome €s and all this pie-in-the-sky avoidance of the elephant in the room, namely the Banking Union/Fiscal Union/USE.

            Environmental regulations in Ireland would probably be better enforced (ground water quality, etc.). Mick Wallace would be banged up already in a USE. OTOH, I can see a lot of problems with the loss of independence, to put it mildly.

          • bonbon

            Just because groupthink, as DMcW points out got Eire into serious trouble, does not mean either more groupthink, or anti-groupthink being practical will get it out.

            What will get Eire out is actually thinking!

            Not knuckling – we do not make ringing sounds with knuckledusters swinging at ground level. That’s apeing those who created the financial system!

          • C21living

            So Bonbon,

            Do you think the Irish public would vote for:

            1) Knuckle down, stead as she goes, keep the € in your pocket

            2) Change plan, drop out of the €, restart the punt, wander aimlessly between Boston, London and Berlin, led here and there by DMcW, Sinn Féin, Ming Flanagan and Bonbon?

            I think it’d be 80-90% in favour of keeping the €.

            Even 60-70% of Greeks want to stay in the EZ, now that’s saying something.

            It’s upwards of 70% of the Spanish.

            It’s all down to Germany, and Germany will not disband the EZ for a return to 17 floating currencies. No, they’ll force out any non-conformists by cutting off their bailout money and obliging them to leave the EZ, as may happen to Greece.

            But Germany will NOT disband the EZ, although it may force a few mediterranean countries to opt to leave… and Ireland will remain IN the EZ.

          • bonbon

            I do not think you have a concept of the size of the problem. To wait for Spain to get you to think, is simply too long.

            Being practical is exactly what got us here. Proposing more of the same, which some may indeed cling to, will deliver that soup kitchen queue. Guaranteed.

          • C21living

            Bonbon,

            My question was which path would the Irish people vote for?

            The answer is – stay in the EZ.

            You and I and DMcW all know it.

            EZ it will be, no matter what then.

            I’m not saying it’s a good or a bad thing, I’m just politically more perceptive of what geopolitical path the country is on than you or DMcW.

          • bonbon

            You are being “practical, pragmatic”, yes.

            Reality is something totally different, knowable.

            Crystal ball oracles are for practical people, while the are fleeced waiting for readings.

            What is good, is DMcW knows enough standard economics, has worked with these denizens, to realize reality is outside their ken.

            Then the real work begins, hence this discussion.

          • bonbon

            You are basically describing citizens of a free state as being run by fear. Not very free to pursue happiness?

            Anything extorted with fear, a vote or support, simply is not real.

            The tyranny of fear will not work.

      • bonbon

        Walking up and down empty shopping malls with empty wallets. That’s what’s on the way, to terrible to contemplate. Then very soon empty stomachs.

        Take a look at photo’s of soup kitchen NY queues in 1930, created by practical pragmatic knuckers. Look at the faces.

        As long as the bailouts continue.

    • bonbon

      Exactly. So why are they doing it? What has gripped their minds? An honest answer to this is urgent, considering the damage it is doing.

  24. Adam Byrne

    subscribe.

  25. C21living

    Over at Zero Hedge, “European Surreality Goes Full Retard As Greek Neo-Nazi Sues Victim Of On Air Assault”.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/european-surreality-goes-full-retard-greek-neo-nazi-sues-victim-air-assault

    The Golden Dawn neo-nazi puncher is actually suing the TV station for provoking him!

    This Greek neo-nazi clown, Mick “good faith” Wallace, Ming ‘it’s our turf’ Flanagan, David “London or Rome” McWilliams, UKIP in England….

    ….the motley crew of EZ seperatists are not coherent, hence not inspiring for the overwhelming majority of the public.

    By default then, the arrow of the graph points back to Angela Merkel, John Bruton, Banking Union, Fiscal Union and USE.

  26. wills

    The euro debate is a con.

    The banking criminal syndicates are jeopardizing the euro through their ponzi scams.

    No ponzi scams = stable euro.

    Not complicated.

  27. And behind the scenes they burrow away……..

    http://t.co/xAxbY9g6

  28. dwalsh

    The Spanish fiasco just goes to show how deeply in thrall to the bankers and their apologist economists our European political elites are. It shows that either they do not understand what is happening; or they do, and are on-board with it.
    The Spanish have driven a stake into the heart of their own nation and peoples.
    When will the madness end?

  29. wills

    The *euro sabotage* project run out of the City of London by its financier oligopoly.

    Simples.

  30. wills

    David,

    BBC is run by Chatham house.

    Chatham house works for the City of London.

    BBC basically engineers social realities for City of London.

    They do this through a number of different ways.

    One of which is to invite in a friendly way commentators on to espouse their views in a suspiciously amicable studio setting.

    Look at it like been invited into the manor house and into the *special room* and been thrown a question or two in an indirect way to be asked up to enter in to a conversation underway about something on which the lord of the manor already know the answer and the outcome.

    By asking you up to enter into the discussion the lord of the manor is by way of this further legitimizing his own agenda hidden away behind the closed door i the secret room of the manor house.

    Wills

    • wills

      Also,..

      The Chatham House brigade love nothing more than the Irish contingent legitimizing their modus operandi.

      Why?

      Well I rather suspect it boils down to the simple fact that the Masters of the house in London perceive their greatest foe to be the Irish.

      Why?

      Well I will leave that for another time as this deserves a long explanation.

    • bonbon

      I think DMcW knows exactly. Add in a few other chatty groups like the London School of Economics, Royal Institute of International Affairs. But great art is our friend: Percy Shelley

      I met a traveller from an antique land
      Who said: “Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
      Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
      Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
      And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
      Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
      Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
      The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
      And on the pedestal these words appear:
      `My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
      Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!’
      Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
      Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
      The lone and level sands stretch far away”.

      Well as some ask here, do we want to be lost in the level sands stretching far away? Will someone excavate a lost culture?

  31. bonbon

    Great classical art gets to the point, with searing truthfulness.

    The bankrupt leading the bankrupt!

    http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/06/11/the-bankrupt-leading-the-bankrupt/

    One of the crazier things about the bailout of the Spanish banks is that the busted countries have to contribute for the new country’s bailout. The bankrupt leading the bankrupt. It could be a Bruegel painting.

    Just one look at Bruegel’s faces in this great work shows exactly where the transatlantic is directly heading. Of course none of the cordon see where they are heading!

    • wills

      A quick note here,

      The countries technically speaking are NOT bankrupt.

      It is strictly an accountancy / book keeping drama the media are blustering on.

      Technically speaking the PIIGS and Italy are super wealthy and dripping in prosperity from a hard asset / infrastructure pov.

      So, bear this in mind.

      • bonbon

        Right , but taking on the private bankers debts by elected governments is destroying countries!

        And besides this financial parasite, 40 years of no growth is hitting at the same time!

        But the no-growth policy came from exactly these banksters!

        So we have 2 flanks to hit hard – Glass-Steagall, and massive reconstruction.

  32. bonbon

    Strange that DMcW seems to think Eire is doomed to replace one Viceroy with another.

    Seems like a fancy version of the Divil ya know and the Divil ya don’t know.

    Why is this? Something got to do with the Pale maybe?

  33. MjHi

    David what I have taken from your comment is that the european project,that is the one we have been having all these referendums for,is over. If you speak the truth & you have this view on it, how is it the political elite are soldering on deluded if what you say is true.I would suggest to you that if this is the case we wont have to worry about currencies here but the total political turmoil this country will face.We have sold our country for nothing.If this comes to be true I as a patriot will hold our politicians to account & not in an election.Your words frighten me David.

    • bonbon

      1929 was caused by the same stuff, and elected politicians made a Great Depression out of it. (Hoover etc). But then FDR changed things, put the banksters through a media investigation, the Pecora Commission (after incidently he published a book on this…)
      Then in 11 days bank holiday FDR set the country to reconstruction, bank splitting, New Deal, TVA, …

      And FDR repeatedly told listeners, the only thing to fear is fear itself.

      Since FDR we have had other commissions, the Nürnberg Trials for example, where health care austerity was the incriminating evidence produced at court. We have proof now austerity is literally killing Europeans, and will dramatically cause genocide if allowed to continue. Brüning in Germany, as DMcW references recently had exactly the wrong policy.

      I am beginning to think politicians are really terrified, gripped by an irrational consuming fear, unable to think. It takes real character now to move against this dread.

      • MjHi

        I agree with your views on America post 1929 but that was just one nation.In truth had 1929 not happened or at least not been as bad Hitler would not have come to power.1929 had a huge influence around the world & was directly & indirectly the cause of WWII.I am worried how far can politicians push ordinary people.We have seen the rise of right wing politics across europe.We in europe seem to be good a managing positive events but a crisis seems to throw us out of sync.Will we have conflict in europe. It may be closer than we think.

      • bonbon

        I understand your concerns. My point is FDR acted on the situation, as we must too, not simply letting it play out. As this situation unfolds, the range of options, popularly held opinions is narrowing.

        We have 3 simultaneous flanks to operate on.
        1)Splitting immediately 6 or 7 of the largest “banks”, most are not playing this game.
        2)Putting in place a system of Public Credit, as Alexander Hamilton showed in an even worse situation.
        3)Reconstruction a smashed physical economy after 40 years of no-growth polieis pushed by the very same bankers that some want to “rescue”.

        That is much better than trying to avoid taking action against an obvious certainty.

      • Tony Brogan

        1929 was caused by the same stuff, and elected politicians made a Great Depression out of it.

        Maybe

        Think of the banks which let lose an unprecedented flood of money in the 20′s causing a huge boom which had to go bust. Same as today.

        FDR solved nothing by adding to the debt (like today) but had more scope than today as the situation is worse today and near the end result being world wide in nature.

        FDR also nationalized private property calling in all the gold he could get his hands on at 20 odd dollars an ounce and then devaluing the currerncy by 69% against gold and revaluing gold at $35 an ounce. Private ownership of monetary gold was now a criminal offence and remained so until 1974 when Gerald Ford again legalized gold.

        Giving the extra gold to the FED RES, FDR enabled the Fed to increase its reserves and thereby greatly expand the money supply through fractional reserve banking. Then as now it had little real effect except to pad the banks balance sheets and further disrupt the economy.

        So we had FDR following Keynes socialist policy of monetization and robbing the citizens of their money to do so.

        The lack of real growth since 1970 was caused by the world going off the restrictions of the quasi gold standard left from the original, full gold standard of the 1870′s and all the world’s banks going on an extensive money printing program and creating huge inflation.

        since 1971 the standard of living in most western countries is 50-60% less now than then.

        Bankers love the lack of competition from gold as there is now no measuring stick to show the devaluation of their fiat paper money.

        Politicians have been supplied with vast sums (see the national debts) to spend on the electorate without having to tax them to pay for their programs.Both polititians and bankers played their part.

        We have now reached the point of no return and no matter how much money is printed it will only worsen the problem. Addition of new printed(digital funds) currency actually is now having a DIRECT NEGATIVE EFFECT. That is every unit added to the money supply has a negative growth correlation to the economy.Not even a fractional growth correlation but negative.

        So saying that FDR policies are a solution is incorrect and actually dangerous to any recovery. The bailout program is actually FDR times hundreds.
        Potiticians have no idea how the problem arose and so no idea what the solution is. The few who do understand are ridiculed and sidelined. Same for the economists.

        After the big bust all will scurry around with solutions and major restrictions on personal freedom.
        Capitalism will be blamed and socialism will be praised.

        however the only way for recovery will be for sovereign countries to have their own currency backed by gold and silver and most social programs will be abolished as unaffordable. Regulation and taxes will be lowered to free the entreprenureal abilities of the people.

        We will have to individually be responsible for ourselves but like the pioneers across the Canadian Prairie will come to each other’s aid when required.(House building, Barn raising, nursing the sick) Charity will again be a virtue. There will be respect in the community for each other. The times will demand it and the situation reward it.

        In the meantime do the opposite of FDR policy. Pay off your debts, save in gold to protect yourself from the hyperinflationary devaluation of your currency.

        (Last week I mentioned that my food costs have increased by 12% per annum over the last 3 years.Yesterday I renewed ny car insurance for a further 12 months. The costs were up approximately 10 from a year ago for no change in coverage.)

        Then look after your family and then your neighbour.
        Without savings there can be no recovery. Savings are needed to be invested in capital. Capital is the requirement for increased productivity and effiency.

        This recovery can not be achieved by debt based credit as is being tried at the moment, or by large amounts of fiat credit issued into circulation by government who sidestep the central bank. All extra money debt based or “free” will disrupt the economy and add to inflationary bubbles..

        The current bubble is the bond market at an all time high with returns(interest rates) at an all time low.When it pops many are the retirement funds that will be broke.

  34. joe hack

    Bonbon, the boy or girl with no name who quotes websites and posts links to prove he knows how to use Google

    Bonbons intellectual insights can be found below or at Google .com

    Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall Glass-Steagall 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    • Reality Check

      You forgot to mention Hamiltons Bank?
      :)

    • bonbon

      Phew! That took some effort! Now back to work.

      • joe hack

        No work involved, just copy and paste ( CTRL+V) I am sure you’re familiar with it.

        Some of your points have merit but we in Ireland can’t bring in global economics in isolation, we don’t have that much power or influence especially now.

        It might be more helpful that you get your message across with relation to what we can do for ourselves in Ireland there are other Blogs that deal with international economic policies were your rants might be appreciated or at least keep your input to the merit of David McWilliams.

        We are where we are now if you have suggestions as to how we improve Ireland’s narrow interests and if you were to comment on the merits of others input you may serve your views in the long run you are sounding like a crank or like someone suffering from depression if so I hope look after your mental health and go talk to real people go have a laugh.

        I have, a long time ago skipped trough your input here, it is not that I disagree with what you have to say but you are coming across bore and a crank.

        Remember putting your name up for public ridicule like that of David McWilliams and others including politicians is not easy to do but been anonymous critic is, if you don’t believe me try it.

      • bonbon

        President Higgins talks about Glass-Steagall, and publicly, repeatedly. Repetition is needed. The Euro is repetion of an error.

        But if you do not read the press clips showing the spread of Glass-Steagall accross all layers, how can you say it is cut and paste.

        Time to drop “back-of-the-class” heckling and study economics, what this blog is all about.

        DMcW’s “Jubilee” idea is charming. Even banksters like it since they know it takes political action to do it.

    • Realist

      Ha ha ha, I have not loughed like this for a long time now :)

      While Bonbon is correct that in this kind of central-fractional-reserve banking we need more regulations, he is just blind to see clearly the main problem, that the whole system is wrong.
      He just like patching the broken window with tapes, a lot of it, and not replacing it.
      I want the system less complex that does not do booms and busts and spread the wealth in some strange way, first to politicians and bankers and then to the worthwhile others, last on monies.

      • bonbon

        I have stated repeatedly the system is doomed. The only real question is are we too? Let the system go. No laughing matter at all.

        Glass-Steagall is not a Dodd-Frank Volcker Rule or Ring-fencing “regulation” – they do not work and were never meant to. GS is direct action for the Common Good, our future.

    • Realist

      And LaRouche of course

    • I take it you are in favour of Glass-Steagall.
      Took me a minute to think about it!

  35. Tony Brogan

    David
    “The key is to look beyond the immediate crisis and see it as being the result of bad planning, rather than the cause of something new. The result of this bad planning is that we go back to proper foundations based on economic and financial ties. We will be given the choice of Rome or London, I know where I would prefer to be”.

    The current mayhem is NOT the result of bad planning. It is the result of careful planning by design.

    Chaos is created and people will look for shelter and help. The help offered will be the security of an economic union as well as a fiscal and monetary union.

    There will be the loss of a “little ” national sovereignty and we will all be a little closer to an authoritatian, technocratic, bureaucratic government.
    It is a carefully laid out plan to destabilize the western industrial democracies and create a controlable , manageable population under the thumb of the international moneyed elites.

    Why do you prefer Rome or London as the only choice?
    Why not make an adult choice to stand on your own two feet and make your way in the world. This is the Third option.
    Ireland can be self financing, with its own currency, allow the growth of sound money have a positive trade balance and be a vibrant self contained society.
    Those with this attitude are being forced to emigrate where they are forced to go to work and support themselves in a foreign land. Provide the right environment and they will stay and do the same at home. Ireland exports its brightest and best. Too bad.

    • C21living

      Ah but Tony and DMcW,

      About 80% of the Irish public want to stay in the EZ.

      Not one of the multinational pharmaceutical companies in Ireland, our largest source of revenues, wants us the quit the EZ.

      So…EZ it is then, even if it hurts.

      It’s what the majority of the business elites AND the majority of the public ACTUALLY WANT!

    • bonbon

      The multi’s are no guarantee, no matter what their marketing and customer relations divisions might say. Have you the slightest inkling how these operate?

      What people think they want, even stamping feet in a tantrum, has nothing whatsoever to do with reality. Tigers wanted riches, no matter what! Foot stamping, twisting, naked irrationality.

      • Realist

        Have you ever worked for them ? I did.
        You are saying it is not normal for companies to want more profit, more market, …
        Only due to the corrupt state and politicians they need to opt to the patent laws, anti-monopoly laws and such.
        Monopoly cannot exist without somebody to corrupt, do you get that (that being the state and their aparatus) ?

        Only proper competition in the proper free-market economy is bringing the prosperity.
        How on earth anybody can think that having 50% public and 50% private sector is good, stable, democratic, ….
        It leads to communism and socialism or 100% state, that was already proven to fail.

      • Tony Brogan

        I am not sure what you are asking? I have a little idea of how multi nationals work but i have no idea at all of how you think they work.

        what you are trying to say with the second paragraph I am trying to guess

      • bonbon

        Monsanto, the classic example. They are not interested in “competition” – there are entire teams committed to destroying competition. Monopoly is the target.

        Look at the 7 largest TBTF “competitive” “banks” – bailed out with public credit. This occurred after liberalizing their game.

        We must break at least these 6 up. Chinese wall between commercial, investment, insurance. Then let them be competitive.

    • bonbon

      The chaos we see is not some “design”, rather the result of pursuing a cultural and economic outlook with no intention of change. The systematic destruction of the last vestiges of national banking, sovereign economic development – in simple words imperial methods, not new by any measure.

      Honest investigation of this mindset is urgent, and very revealing. Any proposed solution coming from these circles must be identified, and that takes some work.

      But when the principles are clear it is actually fun to pull the rug from under their game!

      • Realist

        > The chaos we see is not some “design”

        Are you saying central-fractional-banking is not by design?
        Are you saying GDP growth based economy with statistical aggregation and manipulation is not by design ?
        Are you saying all these politicians and economists on huge salaries are doing nothing as they do not design anything ?

        Even if design happened 100 years ago for some things, like fractional-reserve banking, does not mean new politicans can just come and do nothing.

      • Tony Brogan

        On the one hand you say it is not by design and next it is sytemic destruction that indicates a ruthless plan—then it is imperial measures. By whom.

        A solution coming from “these circles” must be investigated. Who are these circles.

        Are you agreeing with me or??

        • Realist

          Tony,
          Bonbon will never agree to anything that differ his mindset.
          I tried and wasted so much time earlier on this forum without success :)
          He will just bring historical names and blame us for our way of thinking.
          Strangely he forgot about such distracting method in the last week or so :)

          He should read short books called “42 fallacies” and “30 more fallacies”, as he used at least 20 more than us to argue.

          • Tony Brogan

            At least I am getting a few chuckles but it makes me despair of a rational debate(discussion)that will result in a cohesive action and solution.

            Oh well, I was taught that if one wants anything done one has to do it oneself!!
            i am getting too old for all the BS. My kids do not really understand what I talk about.
            I think I will go for a bike ride tomorrow and a sail with my daughter this Sunday.In the meantime I have to clean up the boat and redo the bright work. (Varnish the wood trim)
            It was warmer today but rained tonight.
            The strawberries are three weeks late this year. I look forward to picking some from a u-pick farm. Berries sweet and succulant as they should be.

            Take care
            T

          • Realist

            Enjoy your life Tony.
            Agree on the fact that the action is doubtful as neither politicians want to change anything nor people in general understand what is wrong to start changing things.

        • bonbon

          The apparent contradiction, imperial fixation, and chaos is not the result of reason, rather on a systematic attack on reason itself. Dionysian as a cult, Nietzschian in approximation. Best summed up by Hayek himself, very succinctly. Just look at Economist Mag, the Schumpeter Column.

          • Tony Brogan

            You have left me 5 blocks behind here as nothing connects. I have no idea what you are talking about.
            leaves on a tree blowing in a wind. Lots of russle and bussle but going nowhere.

            I would like to be able to have a rational discussion but you are impossible to fathom most of the time.

          • bonbon

            Get a copy of Economist, then. The editors began that column a couple of years ago. Look up Schumpeter. Nothing hidden, it is all out in the open.
            Schumpeter’s “creative destruction” is straight from Nietzsche, as he admitted himself. What is this other than cultivate irrationality. That is the Roman Dionysian cult. To look for some “grand plan” when this is going must fail – it is the wrong question. This is why conspiracy theories fail.
            Economics based on this gives the chaos today.

          • Tony Brogan

            Like I said bon bon, I am 5 blocks behind.

            i looked up Schumpeter but the essay referd to Marx and a discussion on an alleged trait of “capitalism” as being creative destruction.

            This philosophy or opinion left me shaking my head.It is just a statement of opinion and I do not agree with it.There was no rational given for the position taken.

            i think we can get all wrapped up in other’s wayward thoughts that simply confuse the issue at hand.

    • Realist

      Thanks Tony,

      Exactly, there is a third and best option, to become more free country, less governmental and public, more private.
      Companies will come like crazy and the country can be the best ever.
      But why would that not be politician’s idea too ?
      Because nobody wants wasters, politicians, with all their benefits.
      Can anybody tell me 3 major things any of ministers, president included, did in the last 10 years ?
      Does anybody believe our public services are efficient while they have no competition and way to calculate costs ?

      • Tony Brogan

        Yes it is bloody time somebody stood up and rattled the tree. Who knows what would fall out.
        time Ireland stood up and became an adult. Be resposible for it’s own actions and “go boldly where none have gone before”. Take the world by the throat and give it a couple of shakes. Demand respect.
        We need inspirational leaders.

        • Realist

          That is the problem, majority of good people, possible leaders, just hate politics and their way.
          I believe this is why the public sector will continue to grow as nobody sane can come to be politician and cut it.
          But I believe in “Black Swan” events and that one day just 1 country will take libertarian free-market concept, apply it properly and prosper.
          Once that happens all other countries might want the same, keeping in mind it will not be liberated in the meantime by democratic armies, aka NATO :)

          At the moment all countries are in the same basket, all doing bad, but some doing better than others, making illusion that is the way to do it.
          It is called “The Tragedy of the Commons”, EU being the part of the whole world in it.

          • Tony Brogan

            I have a friend working with a group to form a new party. A lot of hard work and may result in nothing.
            a lot of people are astir in the land so anything can happen.
            DMW must remain mainstream or he will not get published and he has to feed his family.
            Countries are in competitive devaluation of currencies.
            Gold and silver will be last ones standing. I hope I am still standing too!!

          • Realist

            I wish you the success with it.
            I am in the state of “ignoring” politics and did not vote for a long time now.
            Once I recognize somebody different I might start voting again :)
            Yes, gold and silver cannot be destroyed easily, but you never know of these democratic liberators, as they might send all gold and silver to Mars :)

          • bonbon

            I think I see a party of two forming. Call it the Agrarian, Fujitives.

            Have we a confederacy then?

          • Tony Brogan

            yes two is company , three is a crowd

  36. bonbon

    Return to Glass-Steagall Says Financial Times Op-Ed

    June 11 (EIRNS)–An op-ed in today’s {Financial Times} calls for a return to Glass-Steagall under the title “Why I Was Won Over by Glass-Steagall.” This clear and straightforward call was written by Italian Prof. Luigi Zingales at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He also writes regularly for the Italian daily {Il Sole 24 Ore} and the weekly {L’Espresso}.

    • Realist

      In the dictionary it should read:

      Glass-Steagall – Sellotape – temporary fix – something to postpone the inevitable
      (maybe the picture of bonbon, the most evident proponent of such thing)

      For the fun I might group all occurencies of this word and bonbon on google and see does he come on top of it :)

    • Tony Brogan

      Glass Steagall is being pushed so hard there nust be something about it that I should know.

      Personally I would get rid of the regulations that these days may never be enforced.
      better to tell the banks that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.
      No bailouts, let them die. Good prudent banks will step up to take their place.
      Remove state guarantees for depositors and people will be careful where they put their hard earned money.

  37. bonbon

    FDIC Director Thomas Hoenig Endorses Glass-Steagall

    June 11 (EIRNS)–Former Kansas City Fed chairman Thomas Hoenig today writes another strong endorsement of Glass-Steagall, under the headline “No More Welfare for Banks.” Saying he has a “proposal to strengthen the US financial system by simplifying its structure and making its more accountable,” Hoenig calls for a “Glass-Steagall for today.”
    ….

    • Tony Brogan

      Well let us hope he will allow them to go bankrupt as they should. No more welfare is good.
      Keep a wary eye on any ex Fed banker.

      • bonbon

        Especially one who turns 180 degrees admits massive error. Exactly what my radar is tuned for.

        Now when will that 180 degree turn hit you? The world looks completely different!

        I am generous enough to listen to someone like Perry (Hitman) or some Fed’s or even Brit’s who believe it or not see the catastrophe they are in!

  38. bonbon

    DMcW observes that the time between bailous gets shorter. Well this takes the biscuit:

    SPAIN BANK BAILOUT FAILS IN ADVANCE — A NEW SPEED RECORD! NOW THE QUESTION IS, TO GO THROUGH WITH IT, OR NOT

    June 11, 2012 (LPAC) — Surprising even hardened financial “experts” who expected the Spain bank bailout to “work” for as much as several hours, the bailout has actually failed before being formally announced — a new speed record that should, by all reason, be allowed to stand forever. The causes of this lightning collapse should be understood, so that bank bailouts be buried forever.

    • Tony Brogan

      ‘The causes of this lightning collapse should be understood, so that bank bailouts be buried forever’.

      Sounds good to me. so who says it is collapsed and how.
      I am waiting to understand the causes of this failure–pray explain.

    • bonbon

      I will post the full details, but some say that is spamming the site. I do not think you are afraid of lenghty paragraphs, with lots of data?

    • bonbon

      The missing text :

      The Wall Street Journal reported that Spanish government bond yields ROSE on Monday morning, to 6.54% for a 10-year bond, three-tenths higher than the June 8 closing level which helped panic Spain’s government into “requesting” the bailout. Credit default swaps on the Spanish government zoomed higher in price. And contagion occurred: Spanish debt dragged Italian debt to a 10-year yield of 6.04%, up more than a quarter of a point from June 8. One may be sure that the same thing is happening with Eurozone {bank} debt, as with sovereign debt, this bailout Monday.

      The “agreed” bailout was to pile 100 billion euros in new debt on top of Spain’s sovereign debt, and on top of the bonded and short-term debt of Spain’s bad asset-loaded banks. The mechanism was to be a credit line from some EU bailout fund, which Spain’s bank restructuring agency would use to replace the capital of banks, which would have agreed to write off SOME of their bad assets, thus impairing (reducing) their capital. It might have been predicted that the 100 billion euros would shortly be used up in this manner, leading to requests for more bailout.

      For bad-asset-loaded, undercapitalized, overleveraged banks, this new debt does not improve the situation, as the Greek default-and-”haircut” proved. The new debt is “senior,” being from a supranational bailout agency, and thus immediately subordinates all the other debt of Spain, which guarantees repayment; and of the banks (which also, already, owe 330 billion euros to the very-senior ECB, which tolerates no “haircuts” on its loans). So, these loans must be repaid even if other Spanish government and bank debt is defaulted to do so, and all “markets” know this; there is no prospect of economic expansion which would enable Spain or its banks to magically service more debt than the debt they couldn’t keep servicing before the bailout.

      So the results of this bailout, like Greece’s, was prefixed: Spain will be further downgraded, Spanish banks will be further downgraded, and by contagion, Italian, French, etc. sovereigns and banks will be downgraded; etc. — while Obama/Geithner, Cameron/Hague, Madame Lagarde, and the EU bureaucrats demand a further, more huge bailout, likewise built to fail.

      It might also occur that the Spanish bailout, announced to have no austerity “conditions” because “Spain is in a recessionary situation”, will thus strengthen the anti-austerity forces in the election in Greece, which is in a depressionary situation.

      Since the Spain bailout has failed before it has happened, the best course would be not to carry it out at all; that depends on Glass-Steagall enactment, fast, and first in the United States.

  39. This is neither about London or Rome . It is about the real facts that we are in the land of Atlantis a maritime country and that the Atlantic Ocean imbues into us what and who we are ie The Spirit of The Nation .

    Everything else is transient.

    • Living on these shores since a long time, I breath the air, I feel the land and the ocean, every day. The spirit once uniting people, it has left these shores. Anger and fear has this nation in it’s grip since many years, pain and suffering induced by oligarchs who answer to no one, increasingly families are ripped apart by suicide, depression and substance abuse.

      Neo feudalism is implemented, and one day they will raise again, many to give their lives again like their ancestors did, to gain freedom from tyranny, demanding a life worth living, abolish and ban debt slavery, and chase the tyrants into the sea.

      Their lies and procrastinating, licking the shiny boots of Wallstreet and Frankfurt, it is not a crisis, it is an engineered disaster, engineered by policies.

      Fitzpatrick, Cowen, Gilmore, Kenny, and really just a handful of people, inept but entitled, immoral but empowered, the peoples choice.

      Their choices will change…. it is not a matter of if, but when…..

      • C21living

        Nonsense!

        The difference between us, George, is that I’m actually Irish.

        My mother’s from Mayo, my Dad from Dolphin’s Barn in Dublin.

        The Irish will knuckle down and get on with it.

        The want to pay off their mortgages, even if over 30 or 40 years.

        The only way they can do this is by remaining in the EZ.

        So, the public and the government want to stay in the EZ.

        When Greece gets forced out, there’ll be chaos over Spain and Italy’s bond spreads. It’ll be unworkable to save them. Portugal I don’t know, but Greece, Spain and perhaps Italy are all on the way out of the EZ.

        But Ireland can get emergency funding, in principal FOREVER.

        We will go down that path, as the EU leg of the Troika harmonizes Irish banking law in the upcoming Banking Union, as our corporation tax is gradually raised to EZ norms, as our planning regulations are brought up to core EZ standard, as EU SACs and NHAs are enforced and turbury rights abolished in these environmentally protected zones.

        We are on this path and we’re not getting off.

        We will stay in the EZ, because we are under the umbrella of emergency funding.

        • bonbon

          Forever is a long time. The Euro has lasted 12+ years, we have had peace for 70 years. We have had no Glass-Steagall for 12 and look!

          The path itself is gone.

  40. Maybe if all those football supporters had a nice time in Poland, you could join the Zloty. Ever since the Poles arrived in Ireland I’ve had the impression that the two countries, separated at birth: both live on a staple diet of sausages, potatoes, cabbage and beer; both hard working and willing to put up with any amount of crap provided these items keep coming; and both roughly 10 times more catholic than your average pope. (Both also approximately equally shambolic in many areas)

    You could just merge the two countries — just imagine being part of a 45 million strong member state instead of one ten times smaller. And it would catch everyone else by surprise.

  41. Lord Jimbo

    Germany will intervene, the euro will be saved, they are just going through the motions, seeing periphery nations weaken themselves out, I sense we are close to a decision from Berlin on the next stage and of course it will be one that favours Germany.

    As for Ireland, led off a cliff by amateur politicians interested only in the quick buck and re-election, no long game players or statemen in the Dail, up to the Irish people to put their house in order, sadly most of the decision making has been given away while the people that led us to ruin are still in place in the political parties, in the Unions, in business, across the board.

    That is Ireland 2012.

  42. C21living

    +1

    Ireland, Irish politicians, Irish people – there’s no strategy.

    We’re like back office workers – we need to be given a plan to work to, and we just get on with that. Deliver deadlines, hit targets and the rest of it.

    We are in a bailout programme. If we fulfill the terms in a timely manner, we’ll return to normality, independence, etc. This requires patience, perseverance, plodding from each target to the next.

    Environmental and ground water quality targets, planning targets, property tax and water rates targets, etc. to fit our country into a core EZ template.

    This is the path we’re on. It doesn’t require strategy, etc. just hitting targets.

    It is actually perfectly suited to the Irish character. It’s out “karma” if you like.
    We have to clean up after our party and that is what we are doing and we’ll continue to do.

    Spain and Italy can’t be saved, the EZ will lose the CLubMed countries, but the Irish back-office will keep it’s head down and remain in the EZ.

    I’d bet every single penny I have in the entire world on that outcome.

    Bolting and bucking the trend and blasting a hole in the EZ banking system to save ourselves and so on is just not our style.

    • C21 living

      If it were up to us, we would be the last country to leave the EZ, not the first. We’d still pathetically hang on like a limpet. But my sense is this is the Germans’ chance to recitfy the Euro project mistake of 1990-2000 which they were bounced into.

      They will insist that we are not there – as they did in 1993 – in the realignment because our being there gives the Med a bigger sense of greivance. We will be “cut loose” by the Germans and their close neighbours. Italy deserves to be with Germany much more than us.

      We will then have a big choice to make. Denmark and Sweden are the models of SOEs with independent currencies within the EU.

      That my tuppence anyway:)

      Best

      David

      • C21living

        David,

        Geographically – and they say geography is destiny – we are located between Britain and Iceland.

        For most Germans, Dutch and so on, no doubt they see Ireland as being self-evidently geographic-geopolitically on the Atlantic periphery, even more out there than Britain.

        But if we fall out of the EZ, we’ll blast a huge hole in the European (and British) banks.

        I guess precisely this equation is being balanced RE: Ireland right now, as we speak.

      • bonbon

        DMcW, add in Cameron to your calculations. Germany will not be allowed to do as it wishes. That is the fault line from day 1 of the Euro.

        Happily, those “allowing” things, are totally bankrupt. When that sinks in, nations will do what they long wished. That is what hysterically worried London.

    • cooldude

      C21 you are beginning to sound more and more like Michael Noonan every day. We will not fulfill the terms in a timely manner because it is simply impossible to do so. We will never return to normality but we will enter neo serfdom to the banking elites who control the Euro project. The growth levels required to meet our targets are completely out of reach and we will be bled dry and have our assets sold off to the major corporations. Adding more debt to our already unsustainable level is just heaping more problems onto future generations. Better to leave when this whole failed project starts to disintegrate fairly soon and decide which route is best for our country then.

      • C21living

        Leaving the EZ will not solve our problems.

        Every country in core EZ has a property tax – yes, every one!

        Now tax avoidance amongst the Greeks is approaching 100%. Will that change when they leave the EZ? Will they track down the countless billions held by Greeks offshore in Swiss bank accounts when they leave the EZ?

        Will the Greeks get their country in order when they leave the EZ?

        It’s going to be an unmitigated disaster for Greece.

        I can assure you that the catchphrase in Ireland will be ‘we are not Greece’.

        Oh, but we are!! 50% refusing to pay the property tax, refusing water charges and the rest of it. Should we just all abandon the property tax and head off to Poland for the Spain game, for the craic? Have a few pints with Mick Wallace?

        • gizzy

          Can’t understand the logic that the alternative to knuckling down and working hard to stay in the the euro is to have a few pints with Mick Wallace. People might be refusing to pay property tax because they paid it up front. It is called stamp duty and ranged up to 9% on fairly modest houses. A lot of people who are refusing to pay the tax are not on the beer as you like to stereotype our own people. Interesting that the hard working diligent Germans have caused trouble at the Euros and the Paddies have not. Drop stereotyping it does not help support your points.

          • C21living

            Cooldude’s ‘neo-serfs’ of the EU banking elites are the unfortunates who took out huge loans during the Celtic Tiger.

            Of course, if these folks declared themselves bankrupt, they’d be liberated serfs.

            Meanwhile, the next generation will be less burden with mortgage repayments than any generation since the 1970s. €100K mortgages (tops) will be normal, everywhere, even in Dublin. There is nothing ‘neo-serf’ in that.

            I repeat – the only ‘neo-serfs’ are the (I’m sorry to be so blunt) sucker who took the bankers’ bait.

  43. joe hack

    Yesterday news media reports that the” EU plans ATM limit if Greece leaves euro”

    Is this fear dynamic sent to the Greeks by the EU before their elections?

  44. Ray..

    Given that we are an “Atlantic entity”, should Ireland not consider joining NAFTA..? Especially if the British decide to go down this road. And it’s entirely probable that as the EU become’s further integrated that the British will end up having a referendum on their membership of the EU, as it’s no secret that the European project is deeply unpopular among the general public in Britain. When one look’s at the level of trade between Ireland and Britain and the level of investment from United States in this country, should we really not stop fooling ourselve’s that we’re “at the heart of Europe” and focus on were our long term interests really lie..??

    • joe hack

      Ray,”should we really not stop fooling ourselve’s that we’re “at the heart of Europe” and focus on were our long term interests really lie..??”
      Agree
      On the lighter side Ireland and Greece would make a good cheap holiday destination for the Germans.

    • bonbon

      Look at what NAFTA did to Mexico, and Detroit. Just the same model as the EU FTA.

  45. Ray..

    Maybe we could slap a 120% tax on German beer and beach towels as well, just to make them more welcome.. Could be a money spinner..!

  46. joe hack

    David McWilliams

    “I will be on Pat kenny tomorrow discussing the latest in Euro saga. Tune in.”

  47. joe hack

    Is it not strange that a failed self confessed FG supporter appears on a documentary program with over the top dramatic effects on RTE one TV last night, “the neutral state broadcaster?”

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