April 18, 2012

Bad planning costs us a lot -- just look at NAMA

Posted in Ireland · 188 comments ·
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This weekend, friends from Uruguay visited. For Guillermo O’Neill and his wife Alessandra Lawlor, the trip was a sort of homecoming. They are part of the great Irish Tribe down in Latin America. Their great grandparents left here — from Navan — at the turn of the 20th Century and they have kept their Irish links.

In Guillermo’s case, going to the Irish Christian Brothers School, Stella Maris College in Montevideo, immeasurably strengthened these links. The school was set up by Irish brothers in the 1950s and is famous for being the Alma Mater of the Uruguayan rugby players who survived 72 days in the Andes after a horrific air crash. The story was documented in the movie ‘Alive’.

They arrived in Dublin having travelled around the country. Of all the places they visited, Donegal blew them away. Despite living in a country with a significant Atlantic coastline, they couldn’t get over the beauty of the Atlantic and the countryside in Donegal. For these two, Irish-Uruguayans, Donegal was a magical place.

The way to destroy this magical place is to ruin it with bad planning. Given what I heard from these enthusiastic tourists and my own experience up there two months ago on the Inishowen Peninsula, it pained me to read the latest An Taisce report on planning in Ireland.

An Taisce has done us some service. It has ranked the abuses in the Irish planning system over the last 10 years. It is a league of gombeenism and environmental vandalism.

Shamefully, Donegal Country Council comes out worst on this league table of environmental opportunism and shortsightedness.

Not far behind come Kerry and Galway — encapsulating Connemara. These county councils jumped out of the page at me, not because they were amongst the worst offenders, but because on most objective indicators they are probably Ireland’s most beautiful counties.

An Taisce judged each of our county councils on the following eight specific criteria:

- Overzoning: amount of zoned land as a percentage of population in 2011.

- Decisions reversed by An Bord Pleanala 2005-2010.

- Decisions confirmed by An Bord Pleanala 2005-2010.

- Percentage of vacant housing stock in 2011.

- Change in vacant housing stock 2006-2011.

- Water quality: urban areas with secondary treatment failing to meet EPA Standards 2011.

- Percentage of one-off houses permitted as a percentage of all residential planning permissions 2001-2011.

- Legal proceedings commenced following non-compliance with enforcement notice 2005-2010.

According to the report: “Donegal had approximately 2,250 hectares of residential zoned land in 2010, sufficient for an additional population of 180,000 people. Despite this, approximately 50pc of all residential planning permissions in Donegal over the past decade were granted on unzoned land. These trends are symptomatic of a wider systems failure in which counties Donegal, Roscommon, Leitrim and Kerry perform worst.”

It’s not surprising after such a decade that these counties also have the highest number of vacant houses, some but not all of which are dilapidating in front of our eyes in ghost estates. These counties are also experiencing some of the highest levels of population decline and the highest levels of unemployment.

What are we going to do about it?

Will anyone lose their jobs? Will the buck stop with anyone? Or will we put it down to the usual, a shrug of the shoulders and a sigh: “Well that’s the way it goes.”

Will the same old system continue for a new generation of opportunists?

If so, then what is the point?

People pay, the environment pays and the country pays. But because it is hard to measure the cost to society of environmental degradation, this type of vandalism is sometimes seen as being without a cost.

For example, if you are a cowboy builder and build your estate on a floodplain because you have managed to avoid planning regulations and the plain doesn’t flood this year, then what’s the cost?

The cost is only apparent when it does flood but then, who picks up the cost? The State does and then the insurance companies. Subsequently, taxes and insurance premiums increase for everyone. However, because it can’t be traced specifically back to you, the general public pays for this planning.

According to the report, the Irish Insurance Federation put the cost of the major flood events in recent years at more than €370m — a cost which is passed on to all homeowners through higher insurance premiums. Many other buildings are now uninsurable and so they will simply fall into disrepair and have to be knocked down over time.

But let’s think about the real dynamite under the Irish banking system that is the high explosive called “development land”. Development land was not only the high explosive that was detonated by the collapse of the market, but while things were going up, it was also the elixir for greedy bankers and dodgy developers.

And what’s the upshot for you? Well it is NAMA.

A few years ago, before the crash, this column argued that the real value of development land was the “price that a farmer would give you to put cows on it”. Now this is coming to pass.

Approximately 40pc of the €75bn property portfolio transferred to NAMA is ‘development land’. Much of what was hastily rezoned to ‘development’ is in truth pasture and tillage land for farming. In the years ahead it will be officially reclassed to agriculture. Therefore, the value of NAMA’s development land portfolio will plummet from a paper figure of €30bn to a single-digit figure at most. This will crystallize tens of billions in losses for us, the taxpayers. This direct NAMA loss does not take account of the additional billions to be written down on non-NAMA development loans, which remain with financial institutions and haven’t made their way into NAMA.

Over lunch, my Uruguayan friends cited the litany of bad decisions foisted on the average citizen down there, but few were as outrageous as the great Irish planning fiasco.

This will cost you personally thousands of euros. Your children will pay for it too, well after you are six feet under.

Now how does that make you feel?


  1. Grey Fox

    Well Done David…

  2. C21living

    I think the culture RE: atrocious planning is changing.

    Reports like this one from An Taisce are encouraging.

    But we still haven’t reached the point as a culture where we are willing to see heads roll for something as abstract as ‘bad planning’.

    We want to protect the poor planner in his job, because he ‘was bullied into rezoning the land by the politicians/developers/bankers’.

    We are sad it happened, but our Christian compassion means the guy(s) responsible in the planning departments will keep their jobs.

    In the long term, though, our planning laws will more closely resemble Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

    The full horror of what we’ve done RE: planning and development will become clearer and clearer in time.

    • wills

      Ok I get it now ……………….. You Rob are a wind-up merchant.

    • StephenKenny

      You mean they’ll repeal the 19th century anti-slum legislation (2002-ish) and redefine gardens as ‘brown field development sites’?

      • C21living

        No, we’ve tried to ‘develop’ our built environment on our own, with ad hoc, localized planning free-for-alls, and the wheels have well and truly come off.

        So the debate as to whether or not our developmental path was sustainable or not is well and truly won by the nay-sayers.

        It seemed like a massive misallocation of resources at the time, and sure enough it has turned out to be.

        Predictably, Donegal council chief ‘accuses An Taisce of bias’, even though their county is full of empty houses and ghost estates.

        http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fight-back-donegal-council-chiefs-accuse-an-taisce-of-bias-after-worst-planning-verdict-3084917.html

        Planning laws are set to become very tight in the years ahead.

        We had to screw up first before we’d take planning seriously, I suppose.

        We’re like that. We don’t listen, screw up and look stupid.

        • StephenKenny

          I don’t doubt it for a moment, but connecting with UK planning, rather than, say, French or German planning is the mystery.

          • C21living

            Well, UK planning is tight and well-conceived, and strictly enforced, like French or German, and it’s practiced as close to home as Tyrone, Armagh, Derry and the like.

            We ought to look at what they do up there as a model for down here. Not only Northern Ireland, but it’s another part of Ireland after all. With less ghost estates.

            I find if you say Ireland should import a French or German way of doing things, anything, you have to duck your head as the bank bondholder slurs start flying around.

          • bonbon

            Strangely enough the SDLP opposes Tory cuts “up there”, while supporting the fascist ESM “down here”.

            London supports the Euro “over there” while the Sterling “here” or “up there”.

            I am beginning to hear Mosley through the fog again…

  3. wills

    Article makes me weep into my palms crying in hysterical laughter!

  4. stiofanc02

    Answer to that last question has to be: I feel like eating BBQ ribs and drinking Jack Daniel’s bourbon.

    One of the main reasons everyone is so pissed off about water charges and property tax is you are a captured audience.
    They waste and spend the money on bullshit and everyone is pissed off.
    They rip us off badly already for electricity in this country, petrol, heating oil, road tax etc. And there isn’t a damn thing most can do about it.
    And the big lie coming from the Gubmnet is, it is only a temporary property tax.
    Did I hear that one right?
    When they put the toll on the Golden Gate bridge back in the 40′s it was a “temporary” measure until the bonds were paid for that financed the construction, HA HA!
    Last time I checked it was $6 bucks to get out of Marin county and into San Francisco! Thats €4.50 or so, and they waste some hell of a lot of money over there too.
    So now, if you are Phil “hasn’t he been screwing you all these years” Hogan you dont have to worry about waste by the Gubment because he is on the pigs back.
    And as for this fat ass health minister wanting calorie counts on menus, well, there is a comic strip or panel in there somewhere.
    Give me a whisky.

  5. tony_murphy

    UN Agenda 21, behind the green mask, by Rosa Koire

    Check out Rosa Koire talking to Alex Jones

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnfReKnmNkQ

    Planning, sustainable development, Zoning… All a big New World Order Scam

  6. Colin

    Another good reason to emigrate. Another good reason to never buy property. Another good reason not to raise children in Ireland.

  7. Tony Brogan

    David

    Bad planning is synonymous with central planning.
    Central planning means government planning.
    governments of all kinds from the local to national to international.

    let the people decide what they want and what to do with land as private property.
    Let caveat emptor rule the day.
    People will be responsible for what they buy and not rely on government (as in , it passed the planner it must be all right.)
    That being the case any builder will be super careful to only plan what is sailable to a critical public.
    land use by people will revert to its highest and best use.

    Thousands of towns and villages grew up without the benefit of central planning and produced very livable cohesive environments over past centuries.

    fire all the central planners for land use.
    government should be restricted to providing infrastructure that enable the private sector to prosper. Prosperity will provide the taxes to pay for the infrastructure.

    Get rid of most government functions,
    The people must be self reliant and not expect government to bail them out at every turn.
    in the case of property, it is a sure thing that insurance is not available on a bad risk except at very high cost.If insurance is unavailable to cover your risk then don’t buy the property.
    Then the developer does not build or goes broke. good riddance to a poor developer. good luck to a good one.

    No government guarantees then no NAMA.

    Life is simple unless it is made too complicated. In Ireland socialistic thinking is rampant. It is killing society.

    “A government big enough to give us everything we want is a government big enough to take from us everything we have.” … President Gerald Ford

    “The trouble with Socialism is that sooner or later one runs out of other peoples money”–Maggie Thatcher.

    • Tony Brogan

      sailable, Too much time around my boat.
      Saleable

      • juniorjb

        “Central planning means government planning.”
        Unlike, for example, WalMart, who employ over a million people, they don’t centrally plan? I gues the socks and soap just find their way into the same spot in every one of their stores through a spontaneously emerging natural order…

        • juniorjb

          not “the same”, I mean “their specific”, all centrally planned using carefully analysed sales patterns.

        • bonbon

          You do pick the worst possible example of “planning” – WallMart.

          Why not NASA, the 10 year government planned mission, science driven, 450,000 engineers managed, with huge spin-off’s, all started by JFK? The Austrian school ideologues just cannot understand this, Ron Paul included. Obama is killing NASA to erase its memory from the surface of the planet leaving only imperial feudal silliness in its place.

          • juniorjb

            Well, I had hoped to avoid an example with the taint of state involvement about it, given the unlikehood of any heresy getting a fair hearing from Tony anyway.

          • bonbon

            Do not be intimidated by the Austrian School. NASA is proof that they are simply not a product of the modern industrial age, rather a holdover from that “golden” age when the sun never set on the Empire.

            The flaw in the Mises Institute dogma is painfully easy to ridicule.

          • Tony Brogan

            The trouble with putting people in boxes is that one gets the labels mixed up.
            NASA on the face of it was a wonderful program for the exploration of space.
            i have no idea whether it could be more efficiently run than it was but I suspect there were all kinds of cost overuns and contracts awarded on the basis of political connection as well as effiencies.

            I do not understand of your inclusion of Obama in the discussion of “Austrian School Idealogues” and Ron Paul

          • bonbon

            As most know Ron Paul is extremely Austrian. NASA for them is anathema. Obama is not known to be “Austrian” but is destroying NASA step by step, effectively the same result.

            NASA as a mission oriented government project , science driven, is the best example of that time why Hayek et al. are irrelevant.

            Now the contrast is even more clear – NAWAPA, the largest water project in history, dwarfing even the TVA, will begin using Hamiltonian banking. When one looks at the physical economic reality of this project, one sees the total incompetence of most schools of economics/finance.

        • Tony Brogan

          Most government planners are idealogically driven and politically motivated.
          commercial enterprises live or die with their results. They have to remain flexible to survive.
          There are exceptions but the general results of government central planning have not been good.

          • bonbon

            That is simply a circular statement. This is the kind of thing Heidegger was master of.

          • juniorjb

            Your reply is intellectually dishomest. You make a statement that central planning is government planning. This is clearly untrue and you are unable to support these statements. In reply, you offer yet more unsupported statements, generalisations and assumptions. Then you want to get back on to your golden hobby-horse, where you feel you are on more familiar ground. The fact is, you don’t know what you are talking about half the time, but don’t mind solemnly pronouncing judgement and patronising the rest of us. I can see what you get out of it – almost everyone else (including NASA!) are dupes and misguided, but Tony sees how things really are! Government is the new Satan (now that the USSR and the old Satan don’t cut it anymore). This stuff is the perverse mirror image of the old-dyed-in-the-wool western communism – your Utopian free-market paradise is under-theorised transitionally and immune to criticism as you can always claim failures are down to insufficient implementation, thus fuelling calls for yet greater revolutions.

          • C21living

            Tony

            The Netherlands is the most utterly, completely, comprehensively tight urban and rural planning anywhere in the whole world.

            As a result, it works astonishly well.

            They are large agricultural producers and yet they can fit 16 million people in that tiny country.

            Unplanned places, like Donegal, Leitrim or Roscommon, are a completely confusing mess by contrast.

            With respect to development, national, regional and locally integrated spatial strategies are very much to be desired.

          • Tony Brogan

            Juniorjb

            Can’t hold off on the ad hominem stuff can you.
            Let’s reverse the statement then.
            government planning is deemed to be central planning.

            Governments these days are corrupt. Or corruption reigns in government. Local town council or city planners try to do a good job but the policies come from the political side.

            Have there been no failed policies itemised in the lead essay. Are there no complaints about the results. Is it not because of the ignoring of policy and zoning guidelines.
            \
            If Nasa is such a raving sucess, so be it. It’s results were spectacular. so it is being disbanded. Perhaps the economic benefits you have touted were not there or the perceived future benefits. perhaps the government is broke.

            It reminds me og the candian Avro Arrow super sonic jet fighter developed by the finest engineers and technocrats of the day. thousands were employed.

            inexplicably the project was cancelled. Test flights had shown that the plane was light years ahead of anything else. The blue prints were destroyed. the plant and equipment was destroyed the planes and spares were destroyed. Literally cut up and junked.
            It took the US years to build anything comparable.

            It is still a contentious issue. Corruption reigns in government.complete waste of planning and resources and loss of sales to other countries.

            One of the spinoffs was that many engineers went to work for NASA!

            Many careers and lives were broken in those days.

            One legitimate roll for government is in the building and funding of infrastructure. It allows rapid economic development that may not otherwise occur. In Canada one could look at the St Lawrence Seaway

            Regards
            Tony

          • juniorjb

            Don’t bother with the ad hominem canard, it’s a bit of a reflex on the net since this bit of latin became current. I replied to you on a previous occasion and you chose to be rude and impertinent in your response so I don’t feel under any obligation to be polite to you. I think we can both live with that. Reversing the statement is an entirely inconsistent move – it changes the nature of the logical relationship. Don’t make these broad generalisations with such gravity if you don’t want to be picked up on them. And to stick with the birds, one swallow does not a summer make. You give one example and propose to dismiss an unrelated enterprise with that (plus some assumption about what you imagine to have been the case), then all government planning by the same single example. Then you backtrack and acknowledge the role of government in infrastructure etc. I thought they couldn’t do anything right. You are inconsistent on this issue (I would argue for dogmatic, ideological reasons, but that’s just speculation) to the extent that I don’t think you really know what you are talking about in this case. That’s fine, but at least acknowledge that your own view is not equivalent to a sermon on the mount. I don’t necessarily disagree with the critique of government, but I absolutely reject the characterisation of the debate in such absolutist terms.

  8. bonbon

    Typical Irish, lie about the so-called “famine”, about the financial bubble, about the ESM fascism, and now about their own children.

    Hunger Now Attacks One Irish Child in Five

    April 17, 2012 (EIRNS)–Just as we have seen in Greece, the European bailout policy is leading to the genocide of the Irish people, One in five Irish children went to school or to bed hungry in 2010, because there was not enough food at home, according to the survey Health Behaviour in School-Aged Children.

    When asked if they ever went to school or bed hungry, 21% of the children replied that they had, which was up from 17% in 2006.

    Commenting on the report, Minister for Health Dr. James Reilly said, “I am … very concerned at the statistics around exercise and physical activity and the number of children who still remain hungry, either going to school or going to bed at night,” he said. He would be in discussions with his colleague, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Frances Fitzgerald, to examine this information and the actions required to address these issues.

    The report was produced in collaboration with the World Health Organization Regional Office for Europe carried out every four years. The Irish survey was carried out by the health promotion research center at NUI Galway.

    • Tony Brogan

      School dinners are an antedote. Meal provided by the school to every child. Means tested. those who can afford it pay, those who cant dont.

      Also mid morning half a pint of milk each provide to all children.

      something that can be done easily and quickly if not already in place to alleviate the hunger of poverty.

      • Johno

        My Mam runs a canteen in a school and she was telling me about a year or so ago about kids going hungry and that teachers buy them their lunch.

        She was saying that its mostly kids from middle-class who are going hungry. That maybe one or both parents have lost their jobs and the kids are going hungry.

        • bonbon

          This is what must be reported loudly. I’ll bet this is widespread. No one wants a TV camera in the garden filming misery.

          Teachers must know this story. Imagine how they feel about the situation, considering DMcW’s last thread!

          • Tony Brogan

            When I hear Hayek saying we will start small, I hear genocide, reduced population density all over again.

            What on earth has this to do with the indifference of the british to the irish situation at the time of the famine. The british government did not believe the severity of the problem and perhaps cared less about it.
            Absentee landlords enforced their property rights against the tenented Irish and destroyed the homes and drove the people to the byways in the middle of winter. Work house workers were provided with enough pay for a days worth of food per week and were housed many times the numbers planned for.
            in one sense you are correct that these policies could be seen as genercidal in as much as Ireland at the back door of England was always a problem. It would be useful to have Ireland debilitated and rendered harmless in my opinion.

        • Tony Brogan

          Chances are the canteen sells sugar laced nutritionally deficient food.

          I remember reading a comment in Cecil Woodham Smith’s The Great Hunger, where a report studying the health of europeans in the late 1700′s early 1800′suggested that Irish children were the healthiest in Europe.
          Potatoes and milk provided all the nutrition required. ( raw milk and organic potatoes by today’s standards)Not exciting fare but survival food.
          Ireland’s population was estimated at double todays at 8-9 million. No shortage of housing as 3 or 4 generations lived together.

          It may be time for families to “double up” yet again.

          • bonbon

            Food exports peaked during the genocide, escorted by British Army to the ports. The dying had diseased spuds. Various British documents show the reason was to protect commodities trade price – Adam Smith at work.
            Of course this was not freedom for those deprived of food.
            The crop disease started in Dakota – no-one died of hunger there.

            When I hear Hayek saying we will start small, I hear genocide, reduced population density all over again.

          • Johno

            Chances are the canteen sells sugar laced nutritionally deficient food.

            Of course it does! It has a thousand teenage kids to cater for :)

            In all honestly my Mam does a fairly extensive range for a school canteen and trys to introduce healthy(ish) food but she does have a profit to try and make. If she doesnt sell the sugar products the kids go to spar and get them.

    • cooldude

      Bonbon the modern austrian view is to allow commodity money to exist side by side with the current debased paper currencies. This gives citizens a choice in which medium they can put their savings. One which is constantly and deliberately being debased or one which has held it’s value for thousands of years. This proposal is put forward by Ron Paul in the US and by Hugo Salinas Price in Mexico. Both men have met with huge support for their proposals and Hugo has a bill in front of Congress in Mexico at the moment to let a 1oz silver coin be monetized. Here is an article covering these various efforts
      http://resourceinvestingnews.com/33138-silver-as-currency.html?utm_source=Resource+Investing+News&utm_campaign=5c5ca28554-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email
      Perhaps you could be so kind as to give the rest of the posters your proposals for a way out of this monetary mess. I don’t mean some vague references to Hamilton and the evil British empire but actual concrete step by step proposals so we can find out what exactly you are on about. Until you do this and enter into a mature debate on these important monetary matters you have easily ridiculed nothing only the quality of your debate. I look forward to your detailed response.

      • bonbon

        Simply google through this blog – I demolished the Austrian School thoroughly and can do it again if required as a refresher in economics. Ron Paul did write the biography of one of the ideologues.

        As to proposals, whether they are acceptable to your POV or not, they are also easy to find on this blog, even here in this very page.
        All proposals start with 1) Glass-Steagall, split the Banks irrespective of any particular currency or piece of metal. Any further discussion is utter fancy unless this is done. Major obstacle is Obama – interestingly Ron Paul has a theme on this.

        Putting the international financial system through this process will expose instantly what can only be described as the British Empire. That is the best description.

        Then back to non-imperial banking, exactly as Hamilton laid out, and Economics as Carey (Matthew and Henry), List and today the best thinkers.

        For Ireland I have laid out repeatedly the Arcitc project, a major development linking into the Eurasian Landbridge which involves Germany, Russia, China. None of this can possible be financed with Austrian methods, which reveals, embarrassingly, their utter irrelevance to the near future of mankind, rather their pre-industrial feudal, low population density, roots.

        My advice to bloggers, take time off from flaming, read anything you can get on Carey, List, Hamilton, all totally banned at the Uni. That alone should be a giveaway. My advice to “Austrian” – read carefully the Obituary of Hayek by Simon – the incredible revelation there (in Hayek’s on words) show it is based on pure irrationality (Mandeville). The only way to explain this away is to hold up pieces of glittering silver or gold. Well if people are mesmerized it does explain the current crisis.

        • Tony Brogan

          The pricipals of sound money go far beyound your fixation on the Austrian School. It is a structure used for thousands of years not tens.

          So you want to regulate the banks by prohibiting certain functions and deviding up the banking function from insurance and investment.

          What about the fraction reserve system. The problem with this debate as I see it is this.

          I and cooldude lay out aspecific proposal which you label as Austrian for whatever that means to you.
          Then you say use the hamiltonian banking scheme. so now we have to read Hamitons proposal and guess which part of it applies to your thinking.

          it would be appreciated if you would lay out precisely what you mean. it can then be backed up with as Hamilton proposed or enacted. Then we can go read hamilton in reference to your ideas, proposals etc.

          I found the Arctic project very interesting reading with a scope of immagination that is stimulating.

          but please explain why Austrian Methods cannot finance such a project. many large scale projects we financed in the past with a sound money system in existence.

          The fact that gold and silver glitter is incidental to their usefulness as money. They have properties uniquely suited to acting as money and more importantly as a medium of exchange.

          One has to ask why it is that two out of the three major participants of the arctic project are currnetly accumulation as much gold and silver as they can get hold of. Namely both China and Russia.
          They do not appear to think that gold as money is an obsolete barbarous relic.

          The series of monetary crises over the last 100 years culminating with the current one is related to the advent of the central banking system and the progressive abandonment of the gold backed currency to a purely paper. irredeemable, elastic, currency world wide.

          On a personal note.
          I have a high regard for many of your postings. Where I have issue is with your insistant labeling of ideas and placing in a shoebox.
          i am open to discussion and analysis. That is where and how I arrived where I am with the information I have and the opinions expressed.
          Neither of us is irrational. We may have differnent information.

          I have yo go live my life a little so will be absent a few hours

          Best regards
          Tony

        • cooldude

          Thats a bit better Bonbon. On your first point by all means introduce Glass-Steagall. This will probably bring down the big five banks and set off a earthquake in the $7 trillion derivative market but bring it on. The whole system is rotten and corrupt to the core and deserves to fail.
          After that not so clear. Do you support the current system of central banks and their overlords the IMF and the World Bank? Do you support the fractional reserve commercial banking system and the debt based money it brings into existence?. Do you support the endless printing of unbacked paper money which is the cause of inflation because this automatically lowers the purchasing powers of the existing units of currency?. Do you support the fundamental right of citizens to have a choice in what type of money they can use for their savings.
          I am talking here about the right to have a portion of their savings in commodity money and not be punished through CGT tax when they convert back to the debased paper money. In other words choice between paper and commodity money? Do you support the use of negative real interest rates which are the real cause of asset bubbles because if people are losing money through saving they will be forced into risk assets and bubbles are created like our real estate one.?
          For Ireland your Artic proposal, which I have read, may someday have some merit. For the immediate future my proposals are
          1) Vote no to this ESM proposal. It is all about more centalized control and has nothing to do with deficit control. All the rules were in existence previously and everyone just ignored them especially the krauts.
          2) Exit the euro. Its bunched anyway so we may as well plan without it.
          3) Default on all fraudulently induced debt such as the promissory note debt.
          4) Print An Punt Nua and pay off all other debts with this currency. From then onwards budgets would have to be balanced and we would downgrade our public service to one that actually serves the public and which they can afford. This would mean the elimination of all quangos and a much smaller public service.
          5) Introduce a zero tax rate for all new businesses for the first five years. This would include income tax for employees and would give our young people a real chance to become entrepreneurs and to avoid emigration.
          6) Lower the existing corporation tax rate from 12.5% to 5%. This would keep the existing multinationals sweet and maybe attract some new ones.
          7) Have a complete review of all our natural resources and revoke all licenses until this is complete.
          8) Allow citizens save in commodity money which would float alongside the new paper money. This would allow people to keep their savings in a proper store of value and would prevent the politicians from debasing the paper. If they started messing people could simply switch to the commodity money. This is a simple way to keep them in check.

          I look forward to your answers and some concrete proposals.

          • cooldude

            Sorry the derivative figure is $700 trillion. I am beginning to lose track of all this paper. Bear in mind that total global GDP is around $65 trillion just to give an idea of the scale of this problem.

          • bonbon

            All of this is good, BUT the “Austrian School” wild belief that with the “correct” monetary system, the economy will SPONTANEOUSLY grow, in an UNKNOWABLE way is the deafening missing sound in this formulation. The only way to make this blindingly evident is to discuss huge physical economic projects that are necessary for survival of our species. As opposed to Hayek “smallness” the future is BIG. Then lets discuss metal coins etc.

      • Tony Brogan

        I’ll second that.

        • bonbon

          Charming to see the Austrians circling the wagons…

          • Tony Brogan

            Funny thing that you now suggest you are on the defensive. Must mean you are a cowboy.

          • cooldude

            You are taking your time with the reply Bonbon. It must be very interesting? By the way I’m not Austrian I’m Irish and proud of it. Not in any superior type of way but definitely not in an inferior way that seems to have gotten in to our leaders. I wish they would stand up for themselves.

          • Tony Brogan

            I can’t see how money is a distraction to the physical economy. currently the end results of using a debt based paper fiat system is to ruin the economy. all are so severely in debt that the economy grinds to a halt.
            The past experience of commodity money that has no risk of being inflated away leads to people saving a part of their earnings. These savings are spent on the capital of the next part of inovation in the economy, spent on research and development and capital assets. so called venture capital.
            This grows from a sound monetary system. A debt based system cannot do this.
            Why is this deamed to be austrian and or monetarism.There is no proposal to have government or a government agency regulate the amount of money in circulation. Gold and silver are basically self regulating and the amount of this commoodity money in circulation is also self regulating.
            government interference in the supply of money within the economy is what create the distortions that lead to the malinvestment we see today.

            sorry for the delayed response . I have spent the last 3 days having a life. biking and sailing.

            All the best
            Tony

        • bonbon

          Good to hear it! Now We Irish are proud to have contributed heartily to the American System of Political Economy, published by Friedrich List. None other than Matthew and Henry Carey provided essential insights, having suffered under the British Empire’s economics. That book is in English and German page by page, an economics gem. Arthur Griffith, founder of Sinn Fein, and Bismark both referred to this system. The Austrian School of Hayek, Mises etc. have declared war on this. Hamiltonian Banking is the other side of the coin. The US Constitution Credit Clause is his.

          Anyway the “Austrian School” is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the London School of Economics, no doubt exactly why President Higgins chose to hammer that school recently on site there.

          • cooldude

            Never mind huge physical projects Bonbon try to debate the benefits of different monetary systems. Try not to be distracted down side alley ways discussing all your various side issues. Should people be given a choice in what form of money they can keep their savings. Sure what harm can it do. Why did Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao and all other dictators prohibit the use of commodity money. The simple fact is all statists whether they are described as fascist/communist or whatever they all want to control the supply of money to the masses. Precious metals interfere with these plans and they just confiscate them. Nowadays it is much more subtle and they use the education system and the mainstream media to “persuade” everyone that precious metals are just a ‘barbarous relic” and that paper money which is only backed by the trust of the government is a superior form of money. Come on Bonbon you should know better than this. You did a great post about the Tavistock Institute and how they can persuade people that snow is actually black. That is exactly what is going on here. Every paper currency in history, every single one, has ended up worthless. This HUGE experiment will be no different. You are right in one sense. Paper has one use which precious metals don’t have. You can burn paper and you can’t burn precious metals and this is exactly what the housewifes in the Weimar Republic did with their worthless notes. I am not trying to be smart but this is the way all these experiments with unbacked paper money always end up. Check out your history my friend and never forget black is white and white is black.

          • bonbon

            Money is a distraction from the physical economy, and the silver and gold glitter of the “Austrian School” recipe’s are simply a mesmerizing mumbo-jumbo. Ths is British Monetarism at work again, after it has ruined us. So to point out the sheer grandiose incompetence, we WILL discuss huge economic projects of mission oriented governments committed to our future, of the people, for the people, and our future generations.

            It will become to clear to everyone that financing these is a credit issue, not a coin issue.

      • Tony Brogan

        Here are a series of Ron Paul answers to media rep questions.
        People can make their own judgements but I personally wish I was in an electoral area where I could vote for him. he is getting large crowd turnouts and especially from the youth and student population.
        http://www.roadtoroota.com/public/875.cfm?awt_l=EhK2R&awt_m=3cikF0RUxpAZ85B

  9. C21living

    It’s a pity the 6 counties of Northern Ireland weren’t included in the report (which can be downloaded from the An Taisce website BTW).

    Would the Northern Ireland authorities fair better than the best in the Republic?

    Here’s the ranking order, on page 6 of the report:

    South Dublin
    Dun Laoghaire RD
    Galway City
    Fingal
    Meath
    Wicklow
    Kildare
    Cork City
    Dublin City
    Limerick County
    Offaly
    Limerick City
    South Tipperary
    Westmeath
    Laois
    Louth
    North Tipperary
    Waterford City
    Cork County
    Kilkenny
    Longford
    Sligo
    Clare
    Monaghan
    Wexford
    Waterford County
    Carlow
    Cavan
    Galway County
    Mayo Kerry
    Leitrim
    Roscommon
    Donegal

  10. goldbug

    WE HAVE VERY OBEDIENT POLITICIANS AND BEUROCRATS….

    HOW FAR WILL THEY GO FOR THEIR MASTERS?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W147ybOdgpE

    • Goldbug,
      A great video reminding us of a side to our species which we must always be wary of!
      I think you’re onto something which is becoming more and more apparent as we are funnelled through this crisis. Fear and obedience leading to gradual and insidious movement towards a less tolerant and compassionate society?

      For example:

      “It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a person’s home” – Enda Kenny, 1994

      I have heard the argument that nobody should be held accountable for what they said 18 years ago, circumstances have changed – I strongly reject the legitimacy of such an argument!

      When it comes to fundamental statements of principle (which is clearly the case above)time does not convert something which was morally wrong, unjust and unfair into anything which should be regarded as acceptable!

      As for planning? The inside track and power to rezone has made many a Councillor and TD wealthy. It was not about planning per sé, it was was about pensionable profitability.
      Pee Flynn’s illicit 50 grand bought a farm which later attracted a further 200k worth of “legitimate” state forestry grants.
      Do you honestly think that the poor farmer would have sold up for 48k if he were aware of the potential of such forestry grants?
      Or was it just a stroke of luck for a guy struggling to keep three homes going on three pensions?
      And are RTE looking to interview the poor farmer and get his side of the story?

      Eh……No!……No!……and eh No!

      Or a Socialist Tanaiste who’s wife holds out, then charges the Dept of Education (AKA “The People”) exhorbitantly over the odds for a bit of a field.

      The plan was and always is ….the Pension Plan!….but not yours or mine!
      Ask yourself how the people we elected who were so capable of f**king up so much with impunity on such a monumental scale, (including our pension reserves) Seemed so totally incapable of f**king up their own pension entitlements?
      Truth is…..none of them failed!

    • redriversix

      +1 Goldbug

  11. Well David to put some meat to the bone…

    http://www.antaisce.ie/Portals/0/Reports/20120416StateoftheNation_PlanningSystem.pdf

    I have first hands experience with the planning process and objecting against it, the Scumbags and the Gombeens, I’ve seen it all, and I live in Donegal since many years, and it is painful in deed, but it is just the tip of the iceberg indeed.

    I live in Donegal since a long time now, and I like to compare it to the Lord Of The Rings in some ways, when the sun shines it is Hobbit land, otherwise it is Mordor, a paleolithic, a post glacial landscape indeed.

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4914840/paleolithic.jpg

    The “real” people here are as beautiful as the landscapes, honest, straight, no Bullshit.

    You do not meet them in Hotels, or on Tourist Bustours to castles in a Glen, you do not meet them at all if you are not looking for them and make the time required, as they are a shy people in some respect, but they are amongst the finest I have ever met, and I traveled the entire globe, many times.

    Your friends have sensed what is true, there is magic in this place, this tragic place, burdened with the real history of Irish heritage, this beautiful place, peaceful and breathtaking to those who see it with an open mind, an open heart, it will cast a spell on them they will never forget.

  12. This will crystallize tens of billions in losses for us, the taxpayers. This direct NAMA loss does not take account of the additional billions to be written down on non-NAMA development loans, which remain with financial institutions and haven’t made their way into NAMA.

    Affirmative!

  13. Just a sloppy snap from the car, driving around my place….

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4914840/_DSC0319_HDR.jpg

    In your back… where the river meets the atlantic…

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4914840/_DSC0871-Edit.jpg

    Hell yes, it is a magic place…

  14. It is the land where Golden Eagles soar high in the skies and red deer tracks are in the bog…

    You tell me, what do you do with people who have no respect, feel not humbled by this, can think of nothing but PROFIT… you tell me…

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4914840/20090718-_DSC2678-Edit.jpg

  15. Sorry, I am getting all emotional… it fucking SUCKS!

    • redriversix

      Morning Georg

      Great photo’s and honest posts,as regards getting emotional,I think it is part of realizing our human nature,so maybe not something to apologize for…………I stood outside the human race for many years,only deciding to “join” a couple of years ago.Hardest thing I have had to learn was to deal with emotions,which is a task,I believe, we never complete nor are we supposed to.

      It was a lot easier being a vicious Roughneck than a compassionate Human

      Sempri Fi….. Georg

      always faithful..to ourselves and others..

      • Morning RR6

        Thanks man, yeah, you know, the LA Times pictures of the past few days, are a vivid reminder what that can do to young men who stumble into it with a lots of farts in their brain about honor, respect, mission, and so on, many of them turn psycho, many never return, other just die, and those who return somewhat healthy, they all deal with PTSD for many years to come, the mental rape they went through, taking away their humanity, all descriptions I did not come up with, but people who were there, in Vietnam that was.

        Suggestion: Start training Thai Chi, find a good trainer and try it for a few months. The benefits are a great many.

    • Good day Georg

      I love the photos. Nothing pulls on the emotions like a Donegal landscape. If we didn’t have emotions then there would be no art and humanity

      Keep the chin up friend.

  16. There was a time where I was feeling truly honored to live here, and I made real friends here, friendships that will last a life time.

    Today, despite all this beauty around me, despite the friends I made, I no longer feel that I can stay in Ireland, like so many of my Irish friends, who left already.

    This is no longer the place where I can imagine to get old and die in peace, it is burned earth, ravaged, raped by scumbags, and people who ignored it, and allowed them to continue in their tracks. The people that Ireland has lost already, the value this country has lost by them leaving, forced to leave to look for a better future for their children…. You can not put a figure on that loss, all those models will fail to substantiate this loss.

    Thanks for posting John’s and his team findings, it is important indeed!

    • Note:

      The name alone… Larouche-Irish-BRIGADE… it tells you everything you really need to know about them, everything.

    • <b?Venomous fascist demagogues this is really all that I have to comment on this.

    • bonbon

      When citizens finally get tired of whining, and the fog clears, thinking starts. And there is something else to do which requires unbelievable planning and zoning with a massive development intention.

      Here is something to turn energies (of which there is plenty) to. Have a look at the maps, transport corridors and it is simply amazing how the entire tiger fiasco vanishes into thin air ( a bit like the legendary Fomorian tax collectors).

      Educating A Renaissance…
      Ireland — An Economic Revival

      (Based on Marine Transport, Engineering and Scientific Exploration)
      http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/

      The alternative is tearful hand-wringing, being led to the slaughterhouse. Identifying with the captor/tormentor (Bettelheim syndrome) does not work!

      • Right!

        That’s it for me…

        It is bad enough that some full time Idiots are tolerated to spit their nonsensical poison here on a regular basis, but that this ongoing and constant fascist cult is tolerated by the host of his blog…

        Well, this is not my company, not at all.

        Thanks for hospitality David, all my best.

        Take care everyone (nearly everyone)!

        Georg

        • bonbon

          Everyone is entitled to a tantrum now and then. Still, when the strong emotions blow over, thinking does start, a natural process.

          • coldblow

            bonbon

            Now that Georg has got the hump and retired (again), you might explain what he meant by ‘fascist’?

            That Larouch stuff strikes me as ‘pressure cooker’ daft really but not fascist. Although I didn’t get through much of it when I once tried reading it. And you use the word on this thread too.

            Fascist was one of those words thrown around when people got excited when I was at university. I see some things don’t change.

            Andrew Mooney recently suggested using ‘bully’ instead. What do you think?

          • bonbon

            No. Fascism has a precise meaning – Il Duce coined it – when a state is run by a handful (Roman fasces) of technocrats, bankers, elites – not elected of course. Fascism always betrays itself by going after the weak first – cutting healthcare for selected groups, the chronically ill are suddenly “expensive”. The defining document, T4, introduced as evidence at Nürnberg shows the unmistakable paw print.

            ’68ers, boomers, those of the cultural break, have fits with voluntarism such as JFK, FDR’s clear national missions, betraying their affinity to the Empire of feudal illusions. Today at Stuttgart, a major rail node being massively upgraded, showed the ’68er phenomenon of the “Wutburger”, the angry protestor – 17 large infrastructure projects are blocked in Germany.
            I and others propose huge infrastructure development (not residential housing), the Shannon Deep Water Harbor, and other absolutely necessary mission oriented 25-year projects, which of course can never be financed by the bubbly silliness ruining us now. This means the end of imperial monetarism. This s not “free-market”, “spontaneous” (Austrian School).

            But important- Mussolini was MI5 from the 1920′s – revealed in the DT recently. Mosley, British fascist invented the United States of Europe (Hitler failed). But now we find Mosley borrowed that from Churchill!

            Now we get to very interesting history indeed.

            The ’68er’s are of course running a lot of the craziness, remember DSK? Following Arendt’s logic, FDR was an “Authoritarian Personality”, sets the ’68er’s into a frenzy. What is somehow overlooked, is Arendt translated arch fascist “philosopher” Heidegger’s work to English. So we have Heidegger’s ghost accusing FDR of fascism.

            In this breakdown now underway all kinds of stuff pops up indeed.

        • coldblow

          Georg will be back.

    • Tony Brogan

      There is plenty of discussion that suggests that the FDR new deal was not as effective as we are lead to believe.
      More expansion of credit as is being done today on a greater scale, merely kicked the can down the road and extended the problems until the industrializion required for WWII finally gave the US economy a boost.
      If the debt problems are not addressed and allowed to be purged from the system there is no recovery.
      The international BANKING SYSTEM IS ON A QE TO INFINITY BLAST OF UNPRECEDENTED SIZE THAT WILL END IN THE MOTHER OF ALL BUBBLES AND THE MOTHER OF ALL BUSTS.

      the austerity program is a foretaste of what the ruling class (international bankers) have is store for us.
      National sovereighty must be reasserted and all odious debt repudiated. Too big to fail banks must be cut adrift. They are dragging down the nations of the world.
      remove the debt based monetary system that currently pauperizes the people and institute a sound money system that prevents banks from issuing unlimited credit.
      Read G Edward Griffin’s, “The Creature from Jekyll Island” and Detlev Schlitchter’s Paper Money Collapse.
      both are straight forward and factual and will give an understanding for the road forward to a prosperous future.

      • bonbon

        Why not direct readers to the von Mises Institute, the Austrian School center, where that author comes from?

        No matter how you spin it, this is hardcore School.

        So we must deal with its premises.

        We will not be sold British Monetarism again wrapped up in some popular slogans, after what it has done.

        http://academy.mises.org/faculty/detlev-schlichter/

        • Tony Brogan

          Hi Bon bon
          Why you are so insitant on labels escapes me. i read and if it seems sensible and the logic ok from my perspective then that is enough for me.

          Isit not true that there is plenty of opinion that FDr was not as sucessful as some have claimed.
          Is it not true that he seized private property in exchange for a noninal amout and promptly nearly doubled the value once in hand. It is called robbery.

          Are you not against a monetary sytem that indebts the population and puts all the power in the hands of the bankers and robs the people.

          You seem not to object to the resulting auterity and poverty resulting from such a system.

          you seem to be against a people exercising the right to national sovereignty. You seem not to want to set aside odious debt that nearly doubled the national debt with disasterous consequences.

          You seem to want to retain the ownership of banks “to big to fail”

          You seem to be against allowing people to have a choice of saving in a sound money system. One that does not pauperize.

          You seem to favour the fractional reserve banking system that allows the banks to get rich at the expense of the people. That allows the creation of unlimited amounts of money that is subject to interest and that is inflationary.

          You ignore all these points and zero in on the two publications that outline what is happening, how and why and what can be done about it. People can read them and make up there own minds as to what they think.
          Tis is not hardcore anything but common sense.
          It is not British Monetarism or anything else but independence of a free and sovereign people of a free and Sovereign state.

          Something I am sure that you desire.

          Perhaps you would care to read an account condeming toays paper money systemof debt slavery and heralding the use of gold ans silver coin as intrinsic money of a free people.
          you would have a problen trying to label it as ‘Austrian” anything.

        • bonbon

          The author you mentioned is praised at the key Mises site. It does not escape me why. Today that school is an integral part of the London School of Economics. So British Monetarism plain and simple, not modern, rather feudal. It occurs to me the mesmerisers and hypnotists like to use silver and gold pendula, while emptying the clients pockets.

          “Sound money” is a favorite Ron Paul sound bite. It is pure British imperial finance, from a US presidential candidate. He ought to know better. Hamilton discussed this.

          As far as an honest pursuit of the roots of this wildly irrational system see the previous discussion here
          http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2012/01/16/irish-banks-will-shrink-and-shrink/comment-page-1#comment-110760

  17. bonbon

    German Professor Starbatty: Euro Cannot Hold

    April 18, 2012 (EIRNS)–Joachim Starbatty, the Economics Professor from Tübingen who is known for his two Constitutional challenges against the euro, told an audience of businessmen in Frankfurt yesterday that he sees only two solutions to the euro crisis: either the euro will be “downsized” — reduced essentially to Germany and France — or Germany will leave the euro, the latter being the best solution, because the debt of all other countries would be devalued.

    Starbatty went as far as a German public personality can go in exposing the euro as a “political project.” In 1989, “a united Germany should be blasted both as EU-dictated austerity policies which “aggravate the problem” and the idea of “building higher and higher firewalls; they do not extinguish the fire. And what happens when the fire goes over the firewall?” He ridiculed George Soros’s dictate to create a Europe wide debt: “Soros is right, I would also be generous with other people’s money.”

    In a discussion with EIR, Starbatty said that “if the German Constitutional Court stops the ESM, the euro is dead.”

    Former Bundesbank President Hans Tietmeyer was sitting in the audience and went to greet Starbatty at the end, saying, “I have carefully listened to everything.” Tietmeyer, however, refused to say whether he agreed with what Starbatty said. Later, in a private conversation, Starbatty expressed regret that the moderator had not allowed for a Q&A period, because he had in mind to publicly challenge Tietmeyer to speak out.

    People like Tietmeyer know that Greece cannot be saved inside the euro, so why do not they speak out? If they did, then the whole house of cards would collapse, and that is why they do not.

  18. bonbon

    As might not be understood in Eire, Germany’s President has a complicated constitutional role. Overstepping this has always been carefully examined.

    German President Gauck Proclaims Constitutional Court Won’t Rule Against ESM

    April 18, 2012 (EIRNS)–In what can only be described as an unprecedented and possibly unconstitutional political intervention, Germany’s new President, Joachim Gauck, used his first official visit to the EU and NATO headquarters in Brussels yesterday, to drum up confidence in the ESM bailout policies, announcing that the announced legal challenges at the German constitutional court would fail: “I don’t see that our commitment to provide emergency parachutes, will be counterposed by the Federal Constitutional Court.” In Brussels, Gauck was received by EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, EU Council President Herman van Rompuy, and NATO General Secretary Anders Fogh Rasmussen.

    “We need the commitment to the European project,” Gauck said, adding that the crisis of Europe was “not only a crisis of finances, but also a crisis of trust,” and that “in difficult times, we shouldn’t be led by fear or the temptation to go back, to leave the European project,” he said. “As Europe, we are strong. As nation-states, we are weak…. EU countries acting alone no longer have the reputation and the economic and political strength to be noticed in the large power center of this Earth.”

    As {Süddeutsche Zeitung} editor Heribert Prantl writes in his column, referring to him as “the 17th constitutional justice” (there are 16 members on the court), Gauck has just made himself into the “Highest president of the Constitutional Court.” It had not been known before now, that besides being German President, he also holds that position. “With his announcement, the most complicated question of German state and constitutional law has become solved, without any court hearing and judgment from Karlsruhe. The Grundgesetz, says Gauck, tags along with everything, the constitutional concerns about the billions in guarantees and the irrevocability of the treaty have no substance, nor is a public referendum necessary. The President knows everything already, before the announced lawsuits have even been filed. He is a prophet.”

    Even if the division of constitutional powers in Germany is a complicated story, Gauck’s behavior, along with the efforts of the main parties, to silence opposing parliamentarians, are breathtaking assaults in the service of the financial oligarchy. It is high time that people wake up, unless they want to lose everything that has been achieved in this country since 1945.

  19. Spare a Thought

    Ideals Homes Exhibition is on all over this Week End ………….and Don’t Miss It .

    • Deco

      Thanks John. We all need a laugh.

      The ideal home, is one that is debt free. But we were told the opposite for the past twenty years.

  20. Grey Fox

    The entire Planning System is indicative of the corrupt, self serving nature of our Public Representatives, and I mean all of them!
    Every one of them accepts the outrageous remuneration for their efforts, the excuse of the few (honest?maybe) who call for reduced remuneration falls on deaf ears and those few exhalt that they are powerless to change the system as the majority rules.
    It is abundantly clear now that in almost All cases, the motivation for entering Public Service as a politician is self serving, public service should never have been allowed to become a path to great personal wealth but it is! this needs urgent attention! Public Service is a vocation and Personal Ambition is not a valid motivation, ” Ambition is the last refuge of Failure”. In my local town and directly behind my house is 26 acres of agricultural lands, rezoned in the town development plan as residential with the resulting escalation into the startosphere of the value of this 26 acres, my town has grown in population terms from 726 persons in 2002 to over 1500 today, with the resultant increase in homes but without the required accompanying infrastructure, now there is an abundance of housing, large numbers of empty, never lived in housing and after 5 years sitting idle and substandard construction these homes will never be lived in unless significant further investment is introduced to remedy the degeneration which has already, and continues to occur. The money is gone and we are left with the consequences, but the remuneration of Public Representatives continues and increases, we have along way to go in sorting out our little country, we need root and branch analysis and more importantly ACTION! We will not get it from our self serving, Public Representatives because they have lost their moral compass and serve a different master, the almighty Euro and its Puppeteers.
    Wake Up Ireland

    • gizzy

      Grey fox

      What a lot of people do not seem to realise the ecected councillors of whom I am not fond do not have much say in the planning process They do recommend zoning. But planning is granted by the full time faceless council officials

      • and…. there is a chain of un-officials involved as well in the process… some of them “Architects”, oh my, I could tell you stories for an entire evening.

        All nicely mingled in this sickening and corrupted network of “I-know-someone-who-knows-someone” rub my back ass holes.

  21. gizzy

    One important connection that is missed in the planning process in local government appetite for fund to pay salaries and pensions.

    In circa 2003/2002 they introduced the one off levy for house builds ranging from 12k to 16k per unit regardless of size depedning on the county. This levy went to the councils.

    When did we see the zoning and planning explosion circa 2003 to 2007. It was an income fest for the councils who fought to get as many units as possible built in thier counties.

    This country is so small every issue is connected.
    Benchmarking to poor planning in two steps.

    Benchmkark increase payroll

    Planning levies increase income.

    There also is no one to blame for bad planning apart form those charged to grant it the professional planning staff and management in councils.

  22. gizzy

    It is interesting to read some of the comments about tighter planning regulatios, If you were ever through it it was and is tight with huge amount of details soought on minutae. What comes out is the professional council staff who had full veto and pwer to grant sitting back letting councillors who could not grant planning takke the hit on this one,

    This is down to county managers senior planners and the dept of environment. We have huge planning regulations

    We do not as usual have vision or masterplan, So if the answer is more regulation without masterpaln or vision council pen pushers win again.

    • bonbon

      The new deep water Shannon Harbor to cater for the extra large Arctic traffic needs a master plan and there is one. On top of that the rail from there to Rotterdam also has a master plan.

      I fail to see how you can be so blind to overlook this vision.

      I believe it is a touch of the same blindness vis-a-vis the British Empire.

      • gizzy

        sorry you lost me

      • bonbon

        Give planners a decent project like that harbor to turn their energies to. What I suspect is Eire simply blew off steam with the mad bubble because real progress is blocked, a typical symptom if imperial constipation.

        Even banks bubble-headed madness, Bernanke’s insane “helicopter” delivery of trillions is an advanced stage of (flatulent) rot.

        It is a result of imposing “limits to growth” over 40 years on the west. The effect on Africa is plain to see – genocidal.

  23. PollyMolly

    And still no accountability, no one, apart from a few caught out in the Moriarty and Mahon tribubals, brought to court, held to account.

    The Irish system is so corrupt I suspect the powers that be are afraid to put anyone before a judge in case they start singing like a canary and break the dam on the collusion and dodgy deals. There is a sense of trying to keep a lid on it all and thus save what can be saved of the Irish establishment.

    • Deco

      Ever notice – the only worry about what bthe crooks were doing fifteen yers ago.

      What the crooks are doing in the present tense always gets a free pass in the media, in the various arms of government, and in the regulatory authorities.

      Are they being bought of, or just given instructions ???

  24. Dorothy Jones

    David
    I attended NAMA ‘presentation’ to the Finance Committee in the Dail on 14th of March. Peter Matthews mentioned that NAMA was possibly heading for a loss, an issue which the lads largely ignored.
    Look, this organisation has allocated €3MILLION to the 29 ghost estates in its possession. But it sees fit to allocate ca. €4.5MILLION euro to ‘finish out’ ‘The Grange’ in Stillorgan. The term ASSET MANAGEMENT is a complete misnomer. It has not ‘managed’ any of its assets prior to sale to achieve value for money. It is has already discounted loans which developers have to pay back; and pays said developers salaries to pay back said discounted loans. NAMA is just bubbling away…a bloated entity like an animal with no natural enemies in the wilderness.

    • bonbon

      The Dino’s had no natural enemies at the end. They simply outlived their boom epoch.

      • Tony Brogan

        I thought they were wiped out by a cataclysmic event. was it 70 million ? years ago. a meteorite hit earths ocean (thought to be near the carribean)that created vast tidal waves of 1000′s of feet high and wiped out every living thing of any size. Except water dwellers like crocs and sharks!!!

        Only the small and minute survived and we developed the age of the mammals, and warm blooded creatures.

        With a bit of luck an equal cataclysm will wipe out the too big to fail banks and all associated with them. Leaving the little folks intact.

        Is it too much to hope??

      • bonbon

        Well its not so kinetic as the elites would have us believe. The Dino’s were already extinguishing before some stones or volcano’s hit – their fossil count before the “red-line” was already wa down. Some effect made sure warm-blooded animals took over. Someone remarked the problem with Dino’s was they would be having a conversation walking along at dusk aaaaannnnnddddd they simply slooowwwed dooown to a halt as it cooled. Next morning they tried to pick up where the left off and could not remember!

        We are told the markets have no memory, (or morals) – well there you have it!

        • Dorothy Jones

          They died out because of their size. After the meteorite thingy hit earth; there was less plant life and said dino’s couldn’t forage the amount of food they needed. So, little mammals then ruled the earth….:):)

  25. Dorothy Jones

    Planning Act 2010, enacted 28 September 2010 – overview
    Attempt to move from a Developer Led to A planner Led Sustainable approach, but much too little too late.
    Core strategy
    Mission statement setting out how Development Plan complies with national policies
    Consistency
    Govt policy to be implemented in decisions
    Ministerial Powers
    Minister may intervene in Local Area Plans
    Opportunity to introduce inappropriate zoning reduced
    Regional Dimension
    Transport provisions must accord with national strategy
    Alterations to Draft Development Plans
    No last-minute alterations, democratic process must be adhered to
    Limitation on retention
    Development is outlawed if there was a requirement for an EIS
    Enforcement
    Strengthening of Authority’s enforcement powers, Increase in fees, No 7 year amnesty
    Taking in charge
    Authority’s power to ‘take in charge’ enhanced
    Idea is to help improve ‘ghost estates’
    Inclusion of Healthcare Projects into the Strategic Infrastructure
    Strategic and national importance
    Power to extend an existing permissionfor up to 5 years
    NAMA properties retain their value, NAMA act is amended

  26. Dorothy Jones

    Rob Kitchin’s work in Maynooth is available online; his slides on the Economic conference are available on Irish Economy blog. For anyone who is interested in the facts and figures behind the Planning; I would advise you to read his papers….and weep. The one I recommend is called ‘Housing and Ghost Estates in post Celtic Tiger Ireland from 2010′.

  27. SLICKMICK

    Took a walk round the FSC @ lunchtime last week. The place was deserted ! Contrast it with Canary Wharf.The latter is buzzing . Even Mrks & Spenc was quiet.

  28. Grey Fox

    Off Topic,
    C21Living, I suppose this is the scene you are advocating to be a daily occurance in Ireland with your high and mighty Insolvency Legislation, I for one want no part of this scenario, I will fight it tooth and nail, substitute this elderly couple for a young couple with children, if you can justify this you are far more cold hearted and inhuman than I ever imagined and I want no more to do with you or your kind!
    http://awakenlongford.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/shocking-footage-of-eviction-of-71-year-old-man-and-his-wife-dublin/

    • C21living

      Yes it is off topic,

      I’m not ‘advocating’ anything.

      I’m telling you, informing you, making you aware of the new legislation.

      I don’t agree with it or disagree with it.

      But I see bankruptcy as the only way out of indentured debt slavery.

      The idea that we, as a country, can afford to throw hundreds of thousands of euro per houshold (WTF?) at each and every mortgage arrears to try and prop up people going bankrupt is ridiculous and is not going to work.

      Finally, not only is bankruptcy the way out of debt slavery, it is standard practice elsewhere in the developed world.

      Like planning, Ireland is now building institutions modelled on other countries.

    • C21living

      Oh and one other thing,

      If you think demanding public money to save you from banruptcy is called ‘solidarity’, when it’s going to cost other people so much to save you from your own mistakes, I think you’ll find people not in debt don’t consider it solidarity at all, it’s just people financially underwater trying to get others to save them from their own mistakes.

      So you want nothing to do with me, and WE – the majority of the public – will have nothing to do with handing out countless billions to save you from yourselves.

    • bonbon

      Glass-Steagall will put the entire British imperial banking system through bankruptcy proceedings immediately. Obama is the only obstacle.

      The British financial empire is utterly bankrupt and trying to suck the very lifeblood from old, weak, and young to keep its vampire game going. Evictions again?

      Put the system through bankruptcy re-organization now!
      Start by blocking the ESM Treaty – the domino effect, while dramatic will lead to Glass-Steagall.
      Ireland, weak, has this chance now.

      Split the Banks up now before they slaughter the population.

  29. Well David

    Nama
    Anglo
    The ‘pillar banks’
    Household Charges
    Property Taxes
    Water Meters
    Water Charges

    I have about twenty quid to last me the week but luckily I bought my food earlier in the week as always. I am lucky to have twenty quid brother

    My instict is to burst out laughing when I wonder how they can pay for the above when people are living on brown bread and sausages

    Will the last one to leave switch the lights off. Providing they have not been cut off

    • C21living

      Pauldiv

      As the Indo say in your link:

      “Brendan (71) and Asta (63) Kelly had a mortgage of €2m with Anglo Irish Bank on their five-bedroom, detached home in Killiney, south Dublin, but were served with a repossession order nearly two years ago.

      Extraordinary scenes unfolded on the streets of the affluent, gated community at St Matthias Wood yesterday as bailiffs forced their way through the front door with a crowbar. Neighbours looked on horrified as the couple, who have lived in the impressive house for eight years, were brought screaming from their home.

      The couple then refused to leave the front driveway of their home, but were eventually brought out into the street.

      Last night, the couple camped outside their home in a tent and said they would refuse to move from the property under any circumstances”.

      Under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! FFS!

      • What is your point exactly?

        • C21living

          My point is the auld git is barking ‘get off my property’ and he hasn’t paid a penny on the mortgage in years. He was served a repo order 2 years ago.

          This despite the fact he has a portfolio of investment properties.

          Just how does that make it ‘his property’ when he hasn’t been paying for it?

          • No doubt all your friends will all come racing to back you up.

          • C21living

            I don’t need ‘friends’ to back me up. We’re not in a secondary school playground, even if the undignified old man being evicted didn’t even have the decency to adhere to the contract he signed up to with the bank when he got his €2m mortgage.

            I’m to feel sorry for a property investor who hasn’t been paying for his €2m house in Killiney.

            I won’t tell you what I’d like to do to all these old men Celtic Tiger property investors, but it doesn’t involve shaking their hand.

          • Do you have any friends?

          • C21living

            Look Paul

            If you too are massively in debt, then fess up. You’ve come to DMcW a little too late.
            File for bankruptcy and ‘repudiate the debt’ that way.

            If you’re not in debt, you’ll understand why I’m sick and tired of Celtic Tiger era losers and their cry-baby stories.

            Bad karma and all that. They ‘believed’ in Mammon. Let them live with the outcome.

          • Nope I have no debt whatsoever.

            I had a prudent Scottish working class mother who made do.

            I have been visiting the blog for longer than you probably.

          • C21living

            Did you know that I’m the second incarnation of Eireannach?

          • Why hide behind a non de plume?
            Why not be who you are?

          • juniorjb

            Hold on a second, they have a property investment portfolio, the buildings are currently leased and they were served with a repo order two years ago? The heavy handed treatment they received was worrying, but I’d be curious to know what really went on here. The article hints that they have several residential properties. They invested in these with the proceeds from the German business sale. Presumably they have income from these. Do they have extraordinary mortgages on these investments that outstrip this income? They brought quite a lot of money into the country by their own admission, so how much more did they borrow to finance these investments? I assume the value of these assets dropped sufficiently to make selling them a non-starter as a solution. Nonetheless, investing in these properties was a speculative gamble that also had the effect of bidding up the price of housing and helping to make it onerously expensive or unaffordable for many young people, forcing them into debt or a lifetime of insecure rental with the longterm transfer of wealth and damage to their financial wellbeing that goes with it. This couple still own several houses. It doesn’t seem obvious to me that they are going to get the unalloyed sympathy of quite a large percentage of the population, or that they deserve it. Beyond what I hope is our automatic repugnance at the manhandling of an elderly couple, regardless of the circumstances.

          • C21living

            Juniorjb

            My view exactly.

          • bonbon

            Ye fail to see the point- it is easy for a cowardly fascist state to go after the now weak. To go after the banks with such gusto, well that requires the opposite of blue and brown-shirts.

            Glass-Steagall is a call for non-fascists to put this financial empire through eviction.

          • juniorjb

            I wouldn’t go making martyrs of them just yet – I would first like to know how they retained full ownership of their investment properties, which are leased out and performing at some level, yet failed to pay the mortgage on their own house for quite some time. I don’t think it’s the usual order of events. Maybe I’m a bit of a cynic, but when it comes to money…

          • coldblow

            Rob, Eireannach. Yes I should have guessed.

            In your former incarnation one of the final things you said (I think) was that you had realized that the EC was being run in the interests of Germany (and perhaps France) and were going to oppose (the fiscal compact?). What made you change your mind? (I was just wondering.)

            By the way, the Swedish fellow I gave your tip to re tour guiding didn’t want to go ahead with it, mainly (I think) because he is now on disability and doesn’t want to jeopardize it. I passed on a suggestion (I’ve never met him) that since he wouldn’t be on PAYE he could probably try it out for a bit without too much harm. It’s CIE Tours isn’t it? Summer time only I assume.

          • C21living

            @Coldblow

            You’d have Swedish MICE (meetings, incentives, conferences and events) tours all year round, in Dublin at least. But the 8-day tours around Ireland is May-Sept. He’d be flat out during those 5 months if he wanted.

            He could easily work on the black. For instance, they pay in cheques, and he could cash the cheque at the branch of issuance. Then there are tips and so on. If he’s signing on he might miss it, though, but could do shorter MICE stuff or day excursions from Dublin port cruise ships.

            He could try:
            CIE Tours
            Joe O’Reilly
            Irish Welcome
            Abbey Tours

            for starters. At Irish Welcome he should speak to Tara Fusco, tara.fusco@irishwelcometours.com

            He can mention my name: Rob Dowling. I do French and English language, mostly French.

            RE: the EU/EZ, yes, my views are basically those of Leopold Kohr (Austrian writer) in his brilliant book in praise of small nations called ‘The Breakdown of Nation’. In it, Kohr points out that any federation needs to be made of constituent political units of approx. equal population and power.

            So America is a good, stable federation, with 50 states, none proposerously large.

            The UK is unstable, England is too powerful for the other members.

            Germany since WW2 is stable, but before Prussia was too powerful.

            The USSR was unstable, Russia was too powerful.

            China is somewhat unstable, the Han Chinese are too dominant. But it wouldn’t be as unstable as the UK or USSR by this measure.

            Finally, Germany in combination with other German-speaking lands makes for 100m of the EU’s population – that’s very large, almost too large. In combination with French-speaking France and Belgium that makes +170m. This is the core of the EU and always will remain the core. If they agree on things, then that’s the way the EU will go.

            I sympathise with those who feel we should leave the EU/EZ. But out exporters would instruct us to peg our new currency to GBP sterling, and we’d be back in an EU periphery economic federation with the UK and that’s an even less fairly balanced, less stable federation than the EZ.

            In conclusion, Iberia, Greece and Ireland may leave the EZ but the Franco-German core will remain an integrated federation. Whether we stay in it or leave, we will not be part of a political structure where we are in control, because our exporters will not let us have a floating currency and whatever government we have will appease our exporters, because they are the big tax payers.

        • C21living

          Tony

          Of course he’s being evicted from his posh €2m Killiney home – he has a portfolio of properties and he hasn’t paid his mortgage in 2 years!

          He received a repossession order 2 years ago!

          You wake up!

          How do you think it works – you never pay your mortgage and you just stay in your house? Well why don’t we all refuse to pay our rents/mortgages and see where it gets us – yet more ridiculous Irish tomfoolery.

          Throw the asshole out on his ear! He has several other properties and he’s crying about being homeless. All he’ll get from me is clip around the ear.

          Buy-to-let landlord scum! Damnation take him and his Celtic Tiger dream of living off other people’s rent!

        • C21living

          You’ve picked a very bad case to feel sympathy for there!

          Obviously I’ve tremendous sympathy for young couples who were just trying to do the right thing in life and are now underwater.

          But this auld git with his portfolio of properties, a repo order 2 years ago and he’s crowing ‘my house’! My generation would go down there and turf him out and if you think you’ve got numbers to keep this shyster in his €2m Killiney ‘home’, wait until you see the number of pitchforks coming down to give him his comeupance!

  30. bonbon

    Amazing how the obsession with housing has distorted everyone’s economic thinking. Huge development projects like the Deep Water Shannon Harbor and rail link to Rotterdam require massive zoning and central planning, a job for a national government committed to our future.

    Dump the Tiger bubble obsession – I thought it was clear its over! There is much to do after the death of the British financial Empire.

    Have a look at the maps and the sheer scale of the projects here. Do not fall back into comfortable Tiger illusions of “grandeur”.

    The Arctic is opening up as the whining gets louder, very silly behavior. As we do this the feudal past can be dramatized just in case a generation wants to “go back there”.

    Educating A Renaissance…
    Ireland — An Economic Revival

    (Based on Marine Transport, Engineering and Scientific Exploration)
    http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/

  31. bonbon

    Since Uruguay is not too far from Argentina, and the news in the New World is this :

    The Empire Demands Punishment for Argentina

    April 18, 2012 (LPAC)–The British Empire, in the person of Foreign Secretary William Hague, yesterday threatened to punish Argentina for daring to expropriate the Repsol oil firm’s 51% of the privatized YPF oil company, and vowed to work with “Spain and our EU partners to ensure the Argentine authorities uphold their international commitments and obligations.” Rule-breaking cannot be allowed to stand, he vowed.

    Against the backdrop of an imploding Spain, and disintegrating Eurozone, London apparently thinks it can supply the muscle to force Argentina to back down from asserting its sovereignty. Hague fulminated against Argentina’s “protectionist” actions such as restricting imports, which he said would damage the country’s “attractiveness” for foreign investment. What Argentina has done “goes against all the commitments Argentina has made in the G-20 to promote transparency and reduce protectionism.” What nerve!

    Several hangers-on of the City of London offered variations on Hague’s theme, with the {Wall Street Journal} suggesting editorially, “Why Not Expel a Thieving Buenos Aires from the G-20?” Italian Premier and IMF toady Mario Monti personally wrote to President Fernandez de Kirchner to complain about tariff barriers she had imposed that restricted Italian imports. He threatened that for the “Italian” electricity company Enel (which is partially owned by Spain’s Endesa company) to continue to invest in Argentina, Fernandez would have to take “immediate measures” to reverse this protectionism.

    The European Parliament is poised to pass a resolution defending Spain, and decrying the “lack of juridical security” for European investments in Argentina, warning that there “will be consequences” of this action for EU-Argentine trade and other relations.

    But as even the Queen’s press service, Reuters, is forced to point out, all the blather about “international commitments and obligations,” and threats to kick Argentina out of the G-20 or impose WTO sanctions, are largely hollow. Neither Spain nor Europe has much leverage, particularly given theprofound Spanish crisis. As a Spanish legislator from Izquierda Unida charged, Mariano Rajoy is using the Repsol case as a smokescreen to cover up the vast social crisis his draconian austerity regime has provoked. “Repsol isn’t Spain. You can’t confuse the interests of an oil company with the interests of the country,” he said. The Spanish government doesn’t even own a single share in Repsol; 50% of it was owned by banks, hedge funds and private investors.

    Argentina has been shut out of international lending markets for years, and has demonstrated its ability to withstand London’s “punishment” by going on the offensive. As President Fernandez de Kirchner combatively explained in her April 16 speech announcing YPF’s expropriation, she has received all manner of threats, and been addressed with insulting, insolent, and disrespectful language from Spain, and elsewhere. But, she added, she had no intention of responding in kind, because “I am a head of state, not a thug. I wasn’t elected for that. My responsibility is to seriously and responsibly conduct the affairs of the Republic, in which YPF, our historic oil company, has a very important role to play.”

  32. Deco

    Yet another example of policy failure by a society that is incresasingly intellectually bankrupt, and a state system that reflects the selfishness of the few, and never the common interest of the many.

    As usual, it all goes back to Gombeens, and Gombeenism.

    Local authorities has destroyed the planning process.

    • Deco

      Don’t mention the “write-down” option.

      In fact, it is never mentioned.

    • bonbon

      No, they are incapable of changing. Exactly like the Dino’s at the KT boundary. Why bother kneeling waiting, imploring a T-Rex to change? What’s this odd behavior?
      How have they mesmerized everyone, like a cobra? Or worse like Heidegger with the use of words?

      The only way to see this is to put yourself in shoes of the future, when we are building the Shannon Deep Harbor, looking back at that strange time called today. Then you can see the way thinking was distorted and how that never will give us a future.

    • gizzy

      No they will continue to use all the failed methods, they know nothing else

  33. gizzy

    Planning in Ireland is a direct result of it bring an objection based system.

    The buildings are too high and mask the view of Victorian Dublin (object and then pour scorn on developer)Every major city in the world has height and some amazing skylines. We have sprawl endless boring estates of boxes. Anyone tried to get planning for interesting housing was told no we want conformity. Boxes in towns and dormers all over the country

    If the council wanted to put in relief roads object seek compensation. I came accross one case where a woman who lived in Dublin got 3.5 million for a three bed house in Carlow in which she ran a part time business (fact not fiction)Carolw county council ie taxpayer had to foot bill as a result of objection and mad decision from state appointed arbitrator.

    Thats the planning problem all ad hoc decisions by inividuals and a system where anyone can object for 200 euros regardless of how many in favour.

    Also now water charges , another link to planning. Hundreds of millions if not more were paid by developers around the country on water levies. They could not commence unless they were paid. Money was not spent on water system but went into local government black hole.

  34. StephenKenny

    They have learned, and I’m not joking here, they really have.
    The lesson isn’t the one we’d like them to, but what they have learned is absolutely true:

    If you are a lending organisation, the more you lend, irrespective of the risks, the safer you are.

    The same applies to Wall Street and the City of London: The more risks you take, the more debts you accumulate, and so the more damage your failure would cause, the stronger your position, and the safer you are.

    This is the beginning of the problem of moral hazard, that some were talking about, four years ago. The only way out left for countries is to go, is the route that Argentina seems to be going. For the rest of us, we will just roll along, and trouble will only occur when there is widespread poverty, and by then it will be far too late.

    • C21living

      +1 Stephen

      That’s absolutely right. They made themselves too big to fail, the bastards.

      • Grey Fox

        We allowed them to get too big, the public trustee’s we appointed and entrusted with keeping tabs on these banking bastards failed miserably and we then rewarded them with huge payoffs and pensions, the Argentine model is an option with great merit, take back our natural resources, the fat pensions, and payoffs, we drag pensioners out of their homes because they cannot pay their mortgage and reward the bastards who helped enormously to put them in that position.

        • C21living

          ‘We drag pensioners out of there homes”….

          That stubborn auld pair of so-and-soes have been found out!

          “Evicted pair own large property portfolio”. 21 units apparently!

          http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0420/1224314969008.html

          • gizzy

            Thought this was a discussion on bad planning and the reasons for and remedies to.Not a soadbox for a repeated viewpoint.Whatever about the rights or wrongs of any individual case we are dealing with a system breakdown worldwide and nationally in regards to governance issues such as planning.

          • coldblow

            Gizzy

            A curious objection – C21 is just replying to earlier posts which introduced this story and portrayed those evicted as mere victims.

            So surely your moralizing should be directed at them? You must realize this, so why have you chosen to take it up with C21 instead? I suspect it has more to do with group dynamics than anything else.

            In any event I think it’s an interesing story, whatever the truth is.

    • bonbon

      Argentina expropriated Repsol, and is ramping up production now. London has gone berserk. Spain, totally bankrupt is threatening, well what.

      We have a lever Argentina did not have – the ESM veto. We must use it. The ESM blackmail clauses are as empty as the threats against Argentina.

  35. C21living

    “Report on Planning Flawed, says An Taisce”:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0420/1224314968750.html

    An Taisce report pulled because of a cock-up in the league table – the overzoning metric was omitted.

    Mayo, from 5th worst, is now 11th worst.

    Mayo County Council says this destroys the credibility of the report, which should now not be updated, but “scrapped”.

    God, what a farce Ireland is descending into!

  36. Philip

    Dunno what all the fuss is about. Ye all sound like a bunch urban dwellers wanting to have the countryside preserved for your visual pleasure and then you run screaming back to yer well lit steets and shops when the sun goes down. The houses you see on the landscape (blots if you will) are owned by frontiers men braving the vicious wilds of Oirland – pity the wolves and bears have vanished and then we’d have our own NRA. Yee haaawww

    Anyways – judging from what I see of the results of implementing the building standards and quality inspections to date, I figure most of stock will be used for weening lambs and calves in the not too distant future. Means less wasteful expenditure on carbon producing galvanised steel sheds. It’s all good.

    Planning is not an Irish “thing”. It exposes agendas and tends to throw unhelpful cold facts over what was very good story – at the time. We just need a new story. One that is not as harmful.

    • C21living

      Philip

      Planning emphatically is, however, an EU ‘thing’ so Ireland and Spain are being exposed as the two wild outliers and will be forced to get with the programme in future. High time too.

      RE: building standards, wait until all those BER certs reveal just how underperforming the housing stock in Ireland really is. It’ll lose yet more value!

      Then there’s the new laws against Bedsits – expect Rathmines to be shut down, basically. A new breed of property developer will buy up those Edwardian bedsit houses for next to nothing, turn them into 1-bed flats with en suite toilets and showers, and rent them out. But they’ll have to go down another 30-40% before they’d be worth investing in.

      When the full story of Ireland’s planning and building shambles is fully reported on, by An Taisce and Sustainable Ireland and the rest of the investigators, property prices will finally hit the bottom.

      That’ll be in 2 or 3 year’s time. Or maybe 5 year’s time, after all the banruptcies and repossessions literally flood the market with vinyl and glue suburban tat.

  37. coldblow

    From a recent John Waters article:

    “You had to call on a Monday morning [ie for a preplanning meeting with the local authoriy] immediately afer 9am, in the hope of obtaining a slot on the Wednesday of the following week. If you rang the council’s number at 10 seconds to nine, it would ring out. At two seconds past nine it was already engaged…”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0406/1224314438647.html

    I had a similar experience with An Post this week. If anyone here misses a parcel delivery from them they leave you a slip of paper with a customer service no. to discuss how you go about retrieving your package. I rang it at 8.40 on Tuesday morning to get an automated reply saying the office was closed. That morning I rang it 20 times and it was engaged, as it also was every other day this week. I just tried it again: same thing.

  38. goldbug

    ALL EURO ARE CREATED THROUGH DEBT.

    BORROWED INTO EXISTENCE..BUT

    TO PAY BACK -> PRINCIPAL + INTEREST….

    MORE DEBT IS NEEDED TO PAY INTEREST

    THE SCHEME TYPE IS CLEAR. IT IS CALLED PONZI.

    BY DEFINITION A FRAUD.

    DEFAULT ALLOWS SCHEME TO RUN LONGER -> PONZI EXTENSION.

    DEFAULT IS INEVITABLE -> IT IS JUST A MATTER OF TIME.

    ECONOMICS IS IRRELEVANT -> THE SCHEME IS FATALLY FLAWED.

    FIVE QUESTIONS…

    WHY ARE PRIVATE BANKING CARTELS ALLOWED TO RUN PONZI SCHEMES?

    HOW CAN REGULATION OVERSIGHT FIX A PONZI SCHEME?

    HOW CAN MORE DEBT FIX THIS PONZI SCHEME?

    WHY ARE TAXPAYER GUARANTEES USED TO EXTEND A PONZI SCHEME?

    WHY ARE BORROWERS BLAMED WHEN THEY ARE GULLIBLE VICTIMS?

    • C21living

      Borrowers are not ‘gullible victims’.

      I ask a guy for a loan of money, which I spend and I’m a victim!

      Look at those 3 girls going on holidays to the Amalfi coast on their credit cards, they’re victims!!

      What a load of old rubbish.

      If you want to be free from the clutches of the bankers, you could start by being very careful about taking their ‘money’, because as you say, it may be a lot of fun to spend, but ultimately it’s debt.

      And the borrower is always subservient to the lender.

      This is not the same as saying the borrower is the ‘victim’ of the lender.

      They are two parties to a contract. Both seek to gain via the deal.

      • goldbug

        BORROWERS CAN HAVE GREATEST INTENTION TO PAY.

        -> IT DOES NOT MATTER.

        TO PAY BACK INTEREST THEY NEED MORE DEBT -> SOMEBODY SOMETHING HAS TO BORROW.

        THIS SCHEME WILL RUN OUT ONCE POPULATION IS DEBT SATURATED.

        DEBT SATURATION -> BANKS STOP LENDING -> NO WAY TO PAY INTEREST.

        SO WHAT IF NO MORE BORROWERS?

        SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS BE LEFT HOLDING THE BAG.

        THEIR ONLY FAULT WAS BEING THE LAST.

        • C21living

          This system ends in bankruptcy.

          Bankruptcy is where the securitized assets are repossessed, but any outstanding debt gets wiped out.

          So ‘money’ in the form of debt is actually wiped out be bankruptcy.

          This is why on this thread, and the last thread, I’ve been advocating bankruptcy as a means for people mired in debt to wipe away the debt burden.

          A bankrupt is free from creditors letters. Nobody can pursue a bankrupt any more. They are ‘free’, so to speak.

  39. gizzy

    @ coldblow. If you notice I did not say @c21living merely posted to the last post I read. My comments if you read then put forward my own opinions on the topic in question and do not attempt to pour scorn on the opinions of others. So if you see my comments in regard to this article are about planning. If you can group my thinking with others fair play, rgds

  40. dwalsh

    Until the financial markets are shut down most of our discussions here, and whatever our governments and other so-called authorities get up to will have minimal effects. The bankrupting and asset stripping of our nations will continue; and the future we can expect will be one dominated by trans-national private corporate empires.

    The financial crisis is intentional. Its operators have clear goals. Those are to bankrupt and destroy the nation state as a prelude to implementing new systems of global governance; which of course will be controlled by the owners of the financial system. We are living through the twilight of the era of the nation state.

    The likelihood is that the first phase of integrated global civilisation will be a reversion to something like the monolithic empires of the ancient world; ancient Babylon for instance; except at a global level. It will be a corporate technocratic feudalism.

    Corporations in their structure are very like the empires of the ancient world. They are hierarchical private oligarchical empires. The structure of the trans-national corporate world is such that a relatively few groups of immensely powerful and wealthy people (who never appear on the rich lists by the way) ultimately own and control pretty much everything. At this time they are working together to move the planet into a new era of corporate controlled integrated global civilisation; and doing so in such a way as to preserve and extend their hegemony through their corporate empires.

    Unfortunately for us the purpose of oligarchy is to preserve oligarchy; not to preserve human wellbeing; or to promote human development. In fact development is anathema to them unless under their strict control. This is why patent law is such an important issue for them; as well as the corporatisation of universities. They want to be able to control human creativity and development so as to preserve their systems of hegemony. Natural human development would threaten their control.

    These considerations are partly why I oppose David McWilliams and others who seem to see our salvation in the failure of the euro and the European project; and a return to unilateral nationhood and the punt. But it is too late for that. That time has long passed. The real world has moved on.

    An isolated Ireland would not be sovereign; it would be no more than a province of some corporate estate. JPMorgan could buy us up in the morning. Of course they wont need to; we will just hand our country over to them. It’s happening already. Mr Quinn et al are organising the transfer today. Our nation is being sold from under our feet as I write.

    Hard to know what to say or do. Most people would consider my views to be conspiracy theories; even though the facts are there to be seen. The human mind is such that once it accepts an idea as a belief it tends to be unable to perceive facts that contradict the belief. That’s how religions work. We can overcome the tendency; but it requires vigilance and keeping an open mind; and that can be uncomfortable; and inconvenient in a life dominated by struggle to make ends meet.

    As a nation we have been heavily indoctrinated to accept certain beliefs that blind us to reality. For instance the belief that the operations of the financial sector are legitimate business transactions. This belief blinds us to what is being done to us through the financial markets. Unless the financial markets are shut down we will soon be the cheapest lunch in town; a toast sandwich.

    • C21living

      I agree with most of this.

      Our exporters Рso key to our tax and employment bases that no politician will ever go against them, not Sinn F̩in, not Ming, not Shane Ross, nobody Рwill ALWAYS demand that we be pegged to a larger currency so they can plan ahead as corporations without having to worry every week about the contradictory nonsense that passes for policy in Ireland.

      The obvious currency peg is the euro, where 1 IR€ = 1 EZ€ forever. The weight, the pressure, the huge importance placed on our membership of the EZ by exporters based in Ireland – Irish and multinational – is such that it is totally and utterly inconceivable that the Irish government will take us out of the EZ.

      But the Irish public want ‘freedom’, and they’ll get their chance in the upcoming fiscal compact referendum. I think we’ll vote NO. I think the EU will keep its promise of refusing us a second bailout. I think it’ll create massive division inside the country, as people realise the full implications of the NO vote, and there’ll be a kind of civil contest between those who want a second vote to save the day, and those who want to push for exit from the EZ.

      The second vote people will win, because once this place faces real, dramatic threats to its financial welfare, the public will be terrified to protect their own homes, jobs, etc. We will go running back to the EU for help because we don’t have another plan.

      If we DID leave the EZ, our exporters would instruct us to IMMEDIATELY peg our currency to sterling, as it was before 1979. So we fail to get ‘independence’ either way.

      A much more constructive approach to our financial independence would be setting up local currencies to encourage relocalization of economic activity. Kilkenny has its own currency. Local currencies are fantastic. But our exporters will absolutely insist on our being pegged to a big international currency. The choice has already been made – its the euro.

      We live in one of the most internationalized economies in the world. Hence, we have one of the least rooms for manouvre when it comes to our currency. Forget about an independent Irish currency, instead focus on setting up local currencies to run underneath, parallel to the euro.

    • cooldude

      Excellent post. This is not “conspiracy theory” just a clear statement of facts. This is all very worrying but we still live in a democracy and we can still upset their applecart by voting NO in May. We will probably be asked to vote again as usual but I think there is a feeling that this is all a load of cr– and people might actually stand up to these thugs. The answer is not more centralization but more localization and giving people more choices in what mediums they can use as a medium of exchange. Let Kilkenny or Carlow or anyone one else devise a medium of exchange that is acceptable to the people of the area. This is the type of initiative that will break the banksters powers over us. Interesting to see today that 25 people in the new Anglo are being paid over the public service pay limit. They should all be sacked on Monday and stop all these double standards. This government are tough against tax payers and weak in Europe and lethargic with so called public servants. Vote NO.

    • dwalsh

      I dont think this can be solved, or the banksters power over us broken, by a local currency. The monster we are up against is global in scale and reach; and tolerates no dissent – full spectrum dominance. They assasinated Lincoln for the greenback; and recently jailed von NotHaus, who set up the Liberty Dollar.

      That said when the system goes down there will be a period when some alternative means of exchange would be helpful. When that time comes good neighbourly relations and community solidarity will be our best currency.

    • bonbon

      A misapprehension. The Oligarchy pushes policies, as it must – it’s a species thing – , that doom it. Repeatedly we have seen empires doomed, destruct, causing untold misery. Then the same old oligarchy starts all over again with the same policy. The British Empire is the 4th incarnation of a 6000 year “tradition”.
      What policy is this, one may ask? It is specifically anti-human of course. Any honest discussion around this requires more than sound-bites.

      Simply put, now today, the oligarchical way of saving itself, war, cannot function. We have now thermonuclear fire at our disposal, I can list the armament if you wish, that if even 10% were used, would destroy the entire biosphere, and as JFK said in 1960′s, the living would envy the dead.

      So game up!

      Problem is Obama does not see this, and has his finger on the Ohio-class fleet. He is the oligarchy’s point man.

      Indoctrination by the oligarchy? Limits to Growth, Monetarism, entropy, big bang, the list is long.

      Reality can be blinding outside the cave…

  41. mediator

    What to do? Pray and live life as best you can.

  42. mediator

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56BGJ5wtVhk

    interesting take on situation from former chilean finance minister

  43. Grey Fox

    When we see values like Apple – 600 Billion there is no doubt they have the means to “buy” countries, all that is missing is the willingness of the country to be bought, that project is well under way with the constant, 24-7-365 bombardment of our children to endear them only to material possessions. The constant erosion of citizens rights and watering down of the Constitution will eventually leave the prospect of being subject to ownership by a Corporation quite enticing to some future generation.

  44. Tull McAdoo

    As I pointed out earlier in the week……”They haven’t gone away you know”

    We may have a new contender for Calamity Coughlan’s successor. There was I putting forward Calamity Creighton as the most obvious candidate, when up steps the new Deputy from Mayo……TD Michelle Mulherin of Fine Gael, to tell us all (You may need to be sitting down for this one)

    that….”fornication is the “most likely cause” of unwanted pregnancies in Ireland”……….

    Who would have thought?

    Wow do I feel embarrassed!

    Here was I blaming this poor man for years!
    So with my deepest apologies, take it away my posthumous possum………….. and Goodnight Ireland , Sleep well….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0I6mhZ5wMw

  45. dwalsh

    probably this was posted before…but just in case
    eye-opening peek into the ESM Treaty

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcWHBPYOSU&feature=player_embedded

    • bonbon

      A hair-raising video on the ESM, blatant dictatorship in-your-face.

      Exactly as Sir Oswald Mosley outlined – the United States of Europe, USE.

      I’ll bet the parties pushing this treaty expect complete untouchable indemnity – they likely believe they will be perpetually secure from any accountability.

      This is a modern form of Hitler’s Enabling Laws.
      Remember those who said it was not so bad in 1933 – we’ll vote him out in the next election?

      • cooldude

        I have to agree with you Bonbon. This video is quite clear on what the ESM is REALLY about. More unaccountable centralized power which does not have to answer to democratic sovereign states. We really do have to vote NO in May or the game is up.

    • StephenKenny

      What’s peculiar about this package is that it is almost exactly the same as the original TARP package that Hank Paulson proposed, and the US Congress rejected after a huge public backlash.

      The excuse that Paulson gave for the draconian nature was that they were in a great rush to save the financial system, and didn’t have time for the details. This turned out to be untrue. To this day, over $100bn of the $700bn TARP is unaccounted for. And the weird thing is that no one really seems to care: The Special Inspector General for TARP (SIGTARP) has recovered about $150m (million) in the last few years.

      I guess $100bn is just chump change these days.

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