March 28, 2012

Next stage for economy isn't recovery - it's mass default

Posted in Irish Independent · 223 comments ·

On the dot of 11, Mr Justice Peter Kelly swooped up to his stoop, horn rims on the tip of his nose, the wig symmetrically aligned on his head.

He was the first one I saw yesterday morning at the Four Courts whose wig wasn’t slightly askew. Maybe the askew wig is an affectation, a sign to others that while you might look a bit dishevelled, you possess a razor-sharp mind.

The reason I say “sign” is because unless you do this every day, trying to get to the bottom of what is actually happening in the courts is like reading hieroglyphics. Unless you can break the code, the language and the strange ceremony, you feel very much on the outside.

To the uninitiated, all the formality — the bowing, the upping and downing — feels as if you’ve stumbled into an odd other-worldly sect, who are bonded together by rituals, habits and uniforms that are alien to the big living city outside.

It seems all a bit high-church religious. With so many players up there, you’re not quite sure who is going to speak next, who is the bishop, who are novices and who are the altar boys.

Under the harp of our Republic, Mr Justice Kelly called things to order. The court was up on its feet and the proceedings began.

It’s easy to feel like a Protestant undercover at a First Holy Communion, distracted by others who know exactly what’s coming next, destined to be rumbled by adding the “Kingdom, Power and Glory” bit at the end of the Our Father.

The Boss meant business, he was straight into the first case. This one involved a solicitor who, how do I put this politely, “is residing in another jurisdiction”. He owes a few quid, well €80m odd to be imprecise. His lawyers were there but, surprise surprise, he himself didn’t show.

Next up was a case of Dunnes versus a developer that is now in NAMA. According to a previous arbitration decision, Dunnes has to pay Holtglen, the developer, €20m and the supermarket giant is appealing it. So in effect Dunnes is paying NAMA. Mr Justice Kelly — the Boss — was having none of it and he decreed briskly that Dunnes will have to cough up. Even by Dunnes’ standards, €20m is more than a few value clubcard points.

In the middle of this, the phone of one of the “swanky silks” — as the top bruisers are known down here — rang. It was nice to see an element of humanity amidst all the robotics. The fact that the ring tone was a track from The Script suggests that the barrister’s kids have been messing with dad’s phone. The Boss was forgiving but unimpressed.

The case I was waiting to hear concerned a man from Monaghan who was lent more than €34m by Zurich Bank to build what must rank as one of the great follies of the tail end of the boom, a Dundrum-style shopping centre in Castleblaney.

Apparently CBRE came up with the valuation, which legitimises the deal. Just for your information, CBRE was recently being paid by NAMA to value land at today’s price, which it valued at stratospheric prices in the boom, which inadvertently led to the creation of NAMA in the process. Nice work if you can get it.

Surely a bank that lends that type of cash to a man who wants to build a field of dreams on the stony grey soil must constitute reckless lending at least? Unfortunately, my man had gastroenteritis, so we never got to hear.

Promptly, like a priest known for a mercifully quick Mass, the be-wigged boss Mr Justice Kelly wrapped up an expensive morning for the Heffernan family.

But the thing about the Heffernans, they run a good shop. The same couldn’t be said of the bout in the court down the corridor, which pitted the bizarrely named Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, better known as Anglo, against Sean Quinn. So this case is a sideline to the main spectacle of a bankrupt bank trying to get money out of a bankrupt billionaire.

And this is the point of it all, down at the courts we see a huge amount of effort and huff and puff much of which is pointless because so many people and companies are bust.

And it is only the tip of the iceberg. The next phase of the Irish economy’s story won’t be the recovery but the mass default phase and it will imply the banks will need yet more capital. When that capital is unforthcoming, we will have another bank crisis.

The banks don’t have the capital necessary to foreclose on thousands of defaulters. If they foreclosed now, they’d simply go bust. However, by not actively foreclosing they will just go bust passively, slowly, zombie-like.

The charade replayed every day at the Four Courts is the canary in Ireland’s default coalmine. The people yesterday in the courts are those who can still afford the theatre of defence. For most debtors, this is a luxury that only the “soon-to-be-poor” can still indulge.

This is only the beginning.

Far from the majesty of the Four Courts, lies the County Registrar’s Court. Here we see what’s going on further down the food chain. This is where the small fry — those thousands who borrowed too much to finance the first-time houses — are being pursued by banks.

The banks, which have been bailed out by the State, are not down here yet because of the implicit “moratorium” against foreclosing given in exchange for state money. But this won’t go on indefinitely because the longer the banks remain zombies, the more the real productive part of the economy grinds to a halt for the want of credit.

It might have escaped you with all the talk of China and referendums and promissory notes, but Ireland slumped back into recession last week. House prices fell more in February than ever before and unemployment and emigration continue to rise. As basic economics suggests, too much debt combined with asset price deflation and an overvalued currency without the ability to print our own currency tend to strangle the economy.

What is on display in the courts is a jamboree for the protected, professional classes who have no idea just how fragile the entire edifice actually is. It’s a great spectacle, all the pomp and ceremony but with the pressure from mass default building, it is difficult to see how the lid can be kept on.

  1. Juanjo R

    With money capable of moving 24 hours a day, in the blink of an eye all over the world this straight out of the 18th century pantomine of a legal system is particularly ill suited to resolving financial problems.

    Even if the commerical court is better than what went before, its far too easy to run rings around. I know.

    It is all a joke – the fact that you ´de facto´ need to be a barrister with solicitor as a parents in order to practise is ridculous. The fact that you need to first be a barrister to then be a judge is also preposterious. Strictly no proles allowed. Not even other middle class people are allowed. This is class apart in society, a nonm-productive class, and it is society at large that pays for the privelage and largese that they subsist on.

    We saw with the tribunals how long it can take for these throwbacks to get anywhere – all the time milking the rest of us.

    As for NAMA, repossessions and all these economic cases the bottom will never be reached – so endless work for the boys eh? They will be living large I´ll tell you what?

    • Juanjo R

      apologies for the typos…

      • mcsean2163

        what about apologies for the nonsense.

        I am not a barrister but my friend is. He doesn’t have a solictor as a father and I know several solictors wtih no family connections to law before they attended university.

        Get your facts straight Juanjo!

  2. Dorothy Jones

    Brilliant David, Ivan said so too this morning
    J P Kelly is the people’s hero

  3. Pedro Nunez

    “To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
    Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
    To the last syllable of recorded time;
    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
    The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
    Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.”

    expensive shuffling of deckchairs on the deck of the RMS titanic and the 1st class passengers have grabbed all the lifeboats, plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose!

    Preposterous pomposity of Ruritarian farce

  4. StephenKenny

    You just have to watch this right now – Wednesday evening – the start of the congressional investigation into the MF Global bankruptcy.

    It’s a comedy, it’s just fantastic . No one knows anything about anything – they barely seem to know their own names!

  5. The Irish Legal System
    The last great bastion of ridiculous pomposity. A completely corroded pillar of the state which in it’s own sense of self importance and self indulgence has absolutely lost any semblance of what is is “To Serve”.

    I would applaud the complete dismantling of this wicked wigged cancerous edifice and pledge my vote a party which would make it it’s business to lance this rotten infected boil from society’s backside.
    It would probably have to be a new party as none so far dare to question “the Emperors robes” even though it’s plain for any man of fairness to see the arrogant fraudulence.
    How can these so called servants of a State profiteer so blatantly and excessively in the honourable service of that self same State?
    McMahon €300 million – I ask you? What were the raw materials? How itemised were the bills?
    The top legal Lords of this country have easily out Fianna Failed Fianna Fail leaving Berties circa 200k and Pee Flynns circa 50k completely in the shade and no one writes a column or bats an eyelid?
    Open your eyes to these profiteering parasites and subcontract the service of honest judgement to those who have not sold out their right to judge in honest integrity!

    • Dorothy Jones

      Yes and Michael Smith who co-offered the 10k£ award back in the day to persons who could give evidence to rove corruption in the planning system expressed disappointment at the outcome. There’s a fair bit of good stuff in his Village magazine, last edition came out on Sat 24 Mar 2012.

      • Thanks Dorothy,
        I’ll look out for “Village” magazine although I don’t think I seen it in West Limerick. But it’s good to see that’s somebody’s writing about this stuff.
        It’s a funny thing….the now, isn’t it? Permit me to explain;
        We all knew that Bertie was lying to the tribunal yes? But when it was “in the now” is was a sort of acceptable manouvering by a cunning politician?
        But of course when the nakedness is officially pointed out we all recognise he was lying and we will fittingly tell our grandchildren how we remember how the cheat was caught.

        Similarly with the Law Society, “In the now” their outmoded self agrandisement is for the most part currently acceptable.
        But the day is surely coming when someone of far greater stature than the likes of me will point out the truth and once again we will magically conclude that we always knew it was so?

        - Funny that eh?

    • donalvti

      So true. Irish Legal system a costumed farce, a confederacy of dunces. If the widely disliked Alan Shatter actually does manage to drag them into even the early twentieth century I’ll take back every bad thing I every said or thought about him.

      • “A costumed farce” Pish. These guys should have been eradicated decades ago but you let then survive because you are shit scared of them. Don’y start complaining now. Grow the fuck up

        I would suggest ‘A costumed force’

        David, freemasonry is the answer to your astonishment at the rituals and machinations of these ancient and warped brotherhoods and you bloody we know it bhoy. It explains why the system is clearly insane. Please call a spade a spade an stop pissing into the wind. Ireland is controlled by masonic and even darker forces. We all know it but no one dares to tell the full story. Where the wankers who work for TV3 when we need real news?

        Pissed up Irish Abroad. The media of the toilet

        LOL. These guys have a kink for dressing like women

        Some people knew this 150 years ago for fuck sake. Hey wakey wakey slow coaches. You have no idea whatsoever how evil are the forces that fucked you and your country. You are learning now haha because you were all fucking asleep

        They change into stranger costumes in the night time. I have some real dirt on an Irish legal high flyer and what he gets up to after dark. He is a fucking evil and sadistic bastard and it would shock you. Real psycho material but hey he wears a nice suit and has a nice mile during in the day

        He does not realise that he is already on camera and is compromised. Be warned Irish brithers. Stay clean.

    • Deco

      The Irish Legal Profession are responsible to a lot of the criminality in Irish society, as they regard crime as something which is excellent for business.

      Maybe we should have a special tax rate for solicitors, and bankers – to stop them from wrecking Irish society.

      Ireland has far too many lwayers.

      Four times as many lawyers as fishermen in Ireland and we are surrounded by sea. This is the essence of the oversized legal profession in Ireland, and the exhorbitant fees they can charge.

      We need an off-shoring sector where we can outsource legal services to India. To downsize the Irish legal profession, and force them into something useful – like manning petrol pumps, or serving fast food. That way they will not be screwing the honest PAYE taxpayers of this country.

    • Calm down now Paul lol.
      Sure it’s what we all voted for.
      You silly Moron

  6. Juanjo R


    I forgot to mention earlier what a good article this was, it was well balanced and it painted a very vivid picture.

    I’m glad too, that you chose to leave your Spanish article for another day. That general strike is due tomorrow there and their big austerity budget is slated for Friday. That should be lots of writing fodder for next week….

  7. wills

    Quick few points.

    The courts are run under uniformed commercial code now, more or less.

    This is Admiralty – Maritime law.

    See it like a sticker over common law.

    The lads down there in the courts know this.

    They also know for example the Irish government is a registered company that exists to make a profit. Go check out the registrar in companies office.

    My point is that these banks and developers etc work the Admiralty law to their advantage because they can because they possess the knowledge and expertise too.

    The harp behind the Judge is Irish symbol for common law in Ireland.

    Unfortunately it is commercial law they are using to make their getaway with their swag and reset and go again.

    Commercial law is contract law and all terms are fluid and principles too.

    It is a standardized body of law under which trade between countries and business between individuals exists.

    Its origins can back to *City of London* and the Anglo – saxon common law of island of Britannia. A common law of a type which facilitated the old fashioned contagion of Usury.

    Usury – the cancer of free market enterprise.

    • Very lucid Wills .

      So tell me what is your opinion on the loss of Brehon Laws in Ireland ? Could they be resurrected and reformed again ?

      • wills

        Why not.

        Common Law is our heritage in living form.

        Reflecting our own peculiar idiosyncrasies I reckon is key to ALL feeling involved and part of a family and community.

        Problem with Uniformed Commercial Code is it move the goalposts and it standardized human action.

        Big mistake if we are in wanting of a living breathing community upon which ALL members feel and know they are non-expendible.

    • Quick points sometimes are best!

      In this case, they are excellent Wills!

  8. Lord Jimbo

    One FG Minister was claiming on Newstalk recently that Ireland’s problem wasn’t a banking crisis but the fact that too much was being spent by the state on day to day running costs and not enough was coming in, indeed, he went so far as to suggest that the state is getting money back from the banks, people more in the know than me can verify the last part, but surely this rates as a complete misrepresentation or epic misunderstanding of what is taking place in the economy especially if as the article suggests another banking crisis looms. The very fact the banks are refusing to release money to the real economy but instead are building up their balance sheets has had huge implications and worsened state finances as revenue is lost through taxation while the social welfare bill increases.

    I also think the household charge gives some barometer of the public mood and the real circumstances many households are in, two thirds have not paid up and judging by comments in the Irish Times, people are adamant about not paying, this could be a watershed moment and the government may have to back down in the face of mass non-compliance, they will have to face the fact that they have exhausted the public with penalties, direct and indirect taxes since 2008. It may also have a detrimental effect on the vote in May, people may use it as a form of protest, politically the government is way off course while the actually handling of the measure has been haphazard and inspires no confidence.

    For leading Fine Gael politicians to pen articles saying we need to be seen to be getting our act together is deeply insulting given the Irish people have carried an appalling burden for 3.5 years now and in the face of constant bad economic news, rising unemployment and emigration as pointed out in the article. They also carry in while banks are back to their old profit making ways, incredibly insulting but illustrative of how the Republic actually functions, the disconnect is remarkable.

    It is very dangerous for a government to be either so out of touch or willfully ignorant of the suffering the majority of households are going through, if they don’t sharpen up they could be in for one hell of a political awakening.

    • ouldbegrudger

      End-of-days Kenny (Hat-tip to ROC) is like a school teacher who has loss control of his class….oh, wait a minute….metaphor morphs to irony.

    • Deco

      The more FG ministers talk about economics, the more apparent it becomes that they know very little.

      And the ILP are merely behaving like FF, continuting the lies-for-loyalty scams, on the electorate, in an attempt to buy people’s consent by giving them trinkets for their own money.

      • Who or what would you suggest voting for?
        Answers on a post card please.

        • Dorothy Jones

          Paul Sommerville? Think Deco and I are ad idem on that one…I may be wrong. Geez we could do with him now, esp. since Peter Matthews seems to be ‘toeing the party line’…but no…they wanted LC and now look what’s happened!

  9. zohan

    Is that a red flag i see? Enda and his bunch of numnuts are out “begging” for the money to keep all these public servants ,current and retired and those retiring in the future ,on their “lottery style” pay and pensions……makes me sick. i truly hope people vote no to the upcoming referendum so these ba…ds cannot get their hands on more money for the “crazy pay” they get.What have they sold behind our backs…or how many free passports given out ? ,can we not have a general election called now !

    • Lord Jimbo

      I find it highly ironic that these so called centre right parties, who once prided themselves on being champions of neoliberalism and privatisation (Eircom didn’t go too well – very little mention of that unfolding disaster), are out courting the Reds, well watered down Reds or ‘market socialists’ and simultaneously are vexed at the thought of a statue to Che Guevara being erected in Galway city.

    • Very bitter comments. Please clarify, expand and illuminate. Not all public servants are selfish unthinking morons. Snap out of your base hatred and illuminate us pal. Perhaps show a talent for basic logic and reasoning rather than prejudice

      Many public servants do a good job. You would be a weird fish to deny it

      Then again you are in fine company since rants against the public service usually meet with rapturous applause on this blog. So many hard and bitter hearts. A bitter heart will knock 20 years from thy life pal. Kinda makes the oul pension debate null and void

      Haha haha haha

      Put up or shut up.

  10. Adam Byrne


  11. Tony Brogan

    The country should immediately revoke all odious debt.
    Leave the Euro
    close the central bank
    Issue new currency into circulation through treasury
    Ban interest
    Ban fractional reserve banking
    Issue silver coin into circulation, by weight and purity, not currency.(real money. inflation protected.)
    Accumulate bullion through seigniorage
    Issue treasury notes fully redeemable in silver bullion by weight( not units of currency )backed 100% by the bullion.
    This would be Ireland’s silver lining around the dark storm clouds.

    So there may be some ruffled feathers along the way but nothing like what is approaching with the looming total default, and attendant world wide financial collapse if nothing is done.

  12. Tony Brogan

    Countries thinking about regaining their sovereignty by redeeming their gold holdings. gold always was money and still is. Silver too.

    Some of gold’s friends in Europe have started a campaign called “Repatriate Our Gold” to persuade all nations to call their gold reserves home from custodial nations and banks that do not have the owners’ interests at heart. Repatriating reserves of the monetary metal is a prerequisite of regaining national sovereignty and liberating the world’s currency markets. GATA’s executive officers are among the initiators of the campaign and we urge all our friends to learn about it here:

    • cooldude

      I’m afraid Ireland’s gold holdings are the lowest in Europe and are not even held here but are deposited with the Bank of England. According to the World Gold Council Ireland holds 5.5 ton of gold which amounts to 1.8% of our total foreign reserves. In contrast Germany holds 55% of it’s reserves in gold which is what you would expect from the prudent krauts. Worse than that our Central Bank uses this gold for “investment purposes”. This means they lend it out to bullion banks and according to the ridiculous rules of the IMF they can still count this gold on their books. Even though this is just a small amount they should cease their investments and get it repatriated. The introduction of a silver coin to the Irish monetary system seems to be the most sensible way to protect people from the constant currency debasement that is ongoing in Europe at the moment. The ECB is now the “bad bank” for all the dodgy collateral that the insolvent banks want to get rid of at full value. After this latest LTRO money printing exercise the ECB is now leveraged 36-1 which is not exactly a healthy situation. On top of this trillions more will have to be printed to keep Spain and Portugal afloat. The only protection from all this endless currency debasement lies in precious metals which are real money and always act as a store of value. People should be allowed to choose what type of money they can save in. For more on the history of Ireland’s gold holdings it’s all here and it’s not pretty

    • Deco

      The Germans want their gold back.

      • bonbon

        M.Keiser this week – 60% of German gold has disappeared. Almost none left in London, and the rest “was” in New York.

        • Max Keiser is a class act pal

          ‘was’ LOL. There is fuck all gold in America. Imaginary gold.
          Never believe a word from the US gov’t,ever. Never believe a word you hear in the media. It’s schoolboy stuff. The yanks are fucked well and proper and the BRICS want to tell them where you shove the doller. The doller is history

          Permanent WAR! Waken up lads

          No one knows where this alleged gold is. Have you or anyone on this blog concrete evidence that it even exists at all? No

          The gold is believed to live in NY but I reckon it is stored in London. London is the key because everything on the planet is controlled from central London. Freemason central

          If you are paying attention to David’s article then it may have struck you that the themes of Freemasonry and secret societies are heavily hinted at. No one on here twigged but David left a shit load of clues in his wake. What the hell is wrong with you Irish Bros. Are you still fucking asleep?

          Haha. So much for Fritz being a super human genius. Fritz was always stupid and has never been the superman as claimed in the western media

          The Germans are wankers and history says so. For fuck sake lose the inferiority complex guys

          • BrianC

            Sorry to disagree.
            There is a lot of gold in the US.
            It is in Manhatten on a street that exists but is not on the map or google and if you like you can walk down the street.

    • Peter Atkinson

      Well here’s one for all you goldhawks.

      Gold Bar (1 Kilo) Filled With Tungsten Found in UK

      Gold’s London AM fix this morning was USD 1,658.00, EUR 1,255.02, and GBP 1,047.91 per ounce.
      Friday’s AM fix was USD 1,651.00, EUR 1,246.04 and GBP 1,040.85 per ounce.

      Cross Currency Table — (Bloomberg)

      What appears to be a tungsten filled gold bar has been found — this time in the UK. It is believed that a scrap dealer bought the Metalor 1 kilo gold bar of 99.98% purity from a member of the public.

      Metalor is a leading international gold refiner and bar manufacturer, headquartered in Zurich. The bar appears to have been tampered with and may have had holes drilled into it or melted out and then had tungsten rods inserted or tungsten poured into the holes.

      It follows an incident of a tungsten filled gold bar (500 gram) originating from an unnamed bank being found by Heraeus in Germany two years ago and there have been rumours of tungsten filled gold bars in Asia, China and in Vietnam.

      If there are many fake or forged gold bars in the bullion market then there is even less supply of physical bullion then had hither to been assumed.

      Also, it is important to remember that tungsten filled gold bars still have value as tungsten is a rare and expensive metal. Many of MF Global’s clients who lost their entire gold investment (every cent) would wish that they had owned gold bars — even if some or all of them had been adulterated with tungsten.

      The incident shows the importance of dealing with reputable and trusted experts in physical bullion coins and bars and with dealing with counter parties who take these issues seriously.

      Well the last bastion of security has now been officially breached.What is left now to trust.Shit for those old enough to remember the Mad Max Film Beyond Thunderdome with Mel Gibson and Tina Turner where law and order broke down and business was done in Barter Town or Total Recall with Arnie Schwarzenaeger where oxygen was controlled.

      Cigarettes are now counterfeit even from reputable sources.Do you know who really is brewing that below cost alcohol you are buying in the supermarkets.Check the label closely.Chicken off the bone (you know the deli sandwich variety) is being imported en masse from Thailand and Brazil pumped full of pork protein to plump it up and landing on our shores in frozen blocks.

      These scams are only the tip of the iceberg folks.We are being told that the rise in both cancer cases and coronory cases is due to the advances in modern technology.Do you actually believe that or is it more a case of the poisions that are being introduced into our food chain as a result of the above practices.

      No, of course not.Sure gold is the safest haven for wealth throughout the centuries.And sure we all know where all the fools gold (pyrite) ended up.In at least 60,000 Irish home built over the last 15 years.There’s no way that gold bar you have at home stashed under the bed could be anything but the real thing.Sure yer man in the bank assured you when you bought it.Yes the same guy that gave you the loan for that pile in Priory Hall.

      • redriversix

        Morning Peter

        “I think the “Toecutter” was my old Bank Manager”……………?????? !!!

        Have a great day in the land of smoke and mirrors………


      • Tony Brogan has a way of testing that a gold bar is the real deal. The atomic weights are similar I think so weighing won’t do. Xray I am told do not work but ultra sound does I think. It is stated that it is simple to detect a tampered bar!!

    • Hi Tony,

      A growing population attempting growing trade needs an increasing money supply.

      A fixed finite money supply is unfit for purpose. It may come with low inflation but this is because the amount of products and services we can offer cannot increase beyond that facilitated by the fixed money supply.

      A fiat money supply can function fine if it is issued publicly debt-free at origin. Even if we used digital receipts for actual gold, for example, we’d still run into problems if we allowed the commercial banks to issue these receipts only through the loan process. Every unit of ‘gold’ would have a corresponding debt.

      The problem is that it is commercial banks who have the power issue new money.

      I’d welcome your thoughts.

      Paul Ferguson
      Sensible Money

      • Tony Brogan

        Hi Paul

        I think we could go to private email to discuss ideas as tracking you down on this blog took me 20 minuites
        I am

        I have looked at your snsible money site and there are a lot of good ideas I agree with and then others!!!

        your comments

        Paul Fergusonsays:

        April 14, 2012 at 6:13 pm

        Hi Tony,

        A growing population attempting growing trade needs an increasing money supply.



        A fixed finite money supply is unfit for purpose.
        It may come with low inflation but this is because the amount of products and services we can offer cannot increase beyond that facilitated by the fixed money supply.


        The problem is that it is commercial banks who have the power issue new money.


        I’d welcome your thoughts.





  13. Grey Fox

    Law, You and Sovereign — An Explanation
    In order to understand who you are as a man or woman in Ireland in 2012 it is important to start at the beginning. Your position on this Earth is defined by Law.
    There are basically three classes of law:
    The Laws of God: which encompasses the Laws of Nature
    The Law of the Land: also referred to as Common Law. (Ireland is a Common Law Jurisdiction)
    Private Law: is Man Made law, or Contract Law.
    God is accepted as the sovereign of the universe and everything in it including Mankind, God also endowed all mankind with certain inalienable rights, thus making them self determining sovereigns and below God.
    Government which is created and instituted by Man derives its power only from the consent of Man to be governed and who is the only source of earthly power and authority. As such, any attempt to enforce any Law or power that has not been conveyed by Man is unjust and not authorised, and any act or deed done is a usurpation of man’s inalienable rights and therefore void.
    It follows that Common Law or the Law of the Land is as stated “Common Sense Law” and derives its simple, straightforward and self evident status from the Laws of God. Common Law is the foundational Law of Ireland.
    Man made law has all but displaced Common Law in today’s Ireland, this has been a deliberate act perpetrated by the Legal profession in general who would have everyone favour Private Law because of understandable business reasons, this obfuscation of Common Law has been committed by people pursuing their own agenda’s.
    Private Law is the Law which becomes binding when people enter into agreements and create rules by which they will be bound. The Irish Constitution is a good example of Private Law, it is in fact covered by Contract Law and is there to protect the Irish People from government and to keep control of government, the language used in the Constitution is very precise in that it states perfectly clearly the powers which have been delegated to government and also that any powers not delegated to government are reserved by the people.
    It is important to remember that Ireland is a Sovereign Democratic Republic and as such the People are directly or indirectly sovereign over government and this is very reason why the people have safeguarded and provided the right to abolish or change the government and create a different one if they choose.
    Public Statute’s are the rules, procedures and regulations set by the government, they are not laws but rather, simply rules and regulations imposed and enforced by contract agreements. A sovereign man or woman is not a party to these Statutes unless the sovereign volunteers to comply, but once a sovereign decides to comply; the sovereign is compelled to obey the rules and regulations. The ability to choose/decide whether or not a sovereign wishes to comply has been completely removed by government and is never referred to and the simple fact is, accepting a PPS number shortly after birth in Ireland is an implied compliance with Government and Statute Rules & Regulations. Once you have complied, the only way out is to reassert your Sovereign rights.
    Statutes and their inherent usurpation of power from the sovereign are so widely accepted by public trustees at all levels of Government that they now act as masters and not servants as is their role.
    Civil Law, (part of Private Law) which is practised in Ireland and most of Europe is conceptually, diametrically opposite to Common Law. Under Civil law you are guilty until proven innocent and you have only the rights granted by Government and what is granted can also be taken away. Common Law, on the other hand, holds that you are innocent until proven guilty and you retain all rights not delegated to government.
    This is becoming more and more evident in Ireland, were the man is treated as being guilty until proven innocent and if you experience this, it is because of your Legal Status or what the Government perceives to be your Legal Status, if you reassert your sovereign rights and government persists, they are violating your unalienable rights as a Sovereign Citizen.
    In times past there was a direct connection between Gods Law and Mans Law, this in fact was the case when the Irish Constitution was written; students of Law were also students of the Bible for example. The eternal truths in the bible provided the sound foundation for mans law but has all but been lost; the Bible is still the best place to learn about laws in general as well as other eternal truths.
    In Ireland all sovereign power resides in and derives from the People. We The People are the sovereigns. All the power and authority that government has was granted by the People.
    Today’s legislators and in fact Judges pretend to make and implement laws, rules and regulations which we the people have not granted them the authority to do. They continue to do anything they or even a majority of them agree amongst themselves (Vote), they interpret Laws and legislate rules and regulations based on those interpretations of Laws, they render decisions, and enforce rules and regulations which are clearly antithetical to the concepts of the Irish Constitution and they therefore violate their sworn oath to defend and uphold the Constitution.
    The Government of Ireland condones and partakes in the repossession of homes and the eviction of people from those homes based on Civil Law, the Constitution states:
    Article 40.5
    Literal English Translation
    “His place of residence is secure for every citizen, and it is not permitted to go into it forcibly except in accordance with law.”
    English Text
    “The dwelling of every citizen is inviolable and shall not be forcibly entered save in accordance with law.”
    The Government of Ireland, the Law Society and the Judiciary know that few if any people will discover this usurpation of power and even fewer will have the perseverance or the financial fortitude to utilise the Courts to expose this usurpation and make the Government both account and rectify this malfunction.
    The Government also promotes that Statute passed by the Dail is valid! But it is impossible for the Constitution and a Statute violating it to both be right! One or other must prevail!
    If a Statute is violating the Irish Constitution, none are bound to obey it and no Court is bound to enforce it!
    In order for Law to be proper it must be just and it must equally protect the rights of all without violating the rights of any. Proper law is based on reasonableness and common sense and it is harmonious with Gods Law.
    A simple measure to examine and confirm a proper law is to ask yourself, would I be willing to have this law applied to me, if the answer is no and the law is repugnant to you, if it seems unfair or unjust when applied to you, well then there is probably something wrong with that law.
    Food for thought, we will continue later…..

    • hibernian56

      WOW. I’m checking out your site now.

      It’s funny, I appeared for the first time EVER in court (representing myself) recently over a car tax issue (bought a car, garage went bust, no log book therefore no tax, got stopped and issued a ticket).

      I would recommend anyone visit a district court during parking ticket day, both fascinating and frightening. I did a mental tot, I wouldn’t exaggerate almost €10,000 in fines for the state in one afternoon. Every case is over in seconds, three minutes max. Which is crazy as its a default “win” to the state if you don’t turn up. One poor woman got six months in prison (over a traffic offense!!) as she was not there to defend herself (pretty serious charges though, and repeat offender according to their lingo).

      You are offered a chance to speak, but its a mute point, you are already guilty in the eyes of the gougers.

      Anyway, it was my turn to face the music, they get you to walk to the front of the court, in front of everyone (100% calculated intimidation) then the judge reads out the charge “failure to display a tax disc”, “how do you plead” and was about to whack his little hammer when he asked “do you have anything to say”.

      I coughed.

      “While technically guilty judge, in the eyes of justice I am not”. I explained the case and he cancelled the charge on the proviso that I made a €100 donation to the poor box. I objected that he was finding me guilty by proxy, “thank you judge for your decision however, while I have no objection to your decision, and have no objection to making a donation to charity, I often do, I object strongly to being directed by the court to make a donation or else be found guilty”.

      He nearly sh*t a brick!!

      The man was clearly delusional, how dare I question his ruling. When I started smiling he got worse. Looking round the court the looks of contempt from the legal pro’s (separately seated in a segregated section with better chairs from the common peasants). The guards present seemed removed, emotionless. Everyone else (the genuine citizens) either looked shocked or where smiling too.

      Anyway too late, he had already used “his discretion” as he put it, so he could hardly go back on his finding without looking like more of a fool. In the end I made a donation just to shut him up, “do you not see my point judge”, but he refused to acknowledge my point.

      These pampered prats need a reality check and at the very least a psychological evaluation. The feed off intimidation. They are thugs who wouldn’t recognise justice if it smacked them in the face (is that possible?)

      • coldblow

        Great comment

      • Juanjo R


      • coldblow

        For some reason this reminds me of Evelyn Waugh’s “Officers and Gentlemen”, whose final part is a gripping account of the shambles of the British Army’s defence of Crete during WW2 and which was based on the author’s own experiences there. I recall that it seemed to be all about the officers’ mess, how they should dress for dinner and that kind of thing – laughable stuff of course but with this really disconcerting undertone of menace. When the Germans invaded nobody knew what he was supposed to do, there were wholescale desertions and it was just every man for himself.

      • imithe

        Brilliant. This comment explains succinctly why the Irish people are in the hole they find themselves in. It is against our nature to question our overlords. Well done for sticking to your guns – if only a few more people could find the courage it would be a beginning to the end of the corrupt state.

      • Emigrant lass

        I wish I could say that I got one up on a judge just like you did but I’m afraid my story is very different. I also appeared in court for the first and only time back in late 2008 before I emigrated. I was there for a slap on the wrist and to pay a small fine or so I thought, for an unpaid 80 Euro summons for using my mobile phone while driving. I had not received any fine in the coming weeks after I got stopped by the guard so thought the paperwork had got misplaced on their side. As a young 28 year old at the time I had bought a home and just moved out of the homeplace two or three months. My mother presented me with the court summons and pleaded to me that she had not received a fine in the post before that. So I went into the guarda station and he advised me to just show up in court if I could and that the guard who had stopped me was quite the so and so in his own words. So I took an extended lunch from work and showed up like I was told. What a mistake that was. Nobody else in the list of names had turned up for the mobile phone and traffic offences except for me. So when my name was called out the judge called me up.
        I swear the minute he saw me, he saw red! And to this day i don’t know why.
        He asked me why I had not paid the fine and I told him nicely that I had not recieved it and I would have paid the fine if I did. He shouted that I was a liar, told me I was an insult to his courtroom and that it was my obligation to follow up on my summons and he fined me 500 Euro! So it went from an 80 Euro fine to 500 just because it suited him. I was mortified and was approached by two men outside the court building, one being a guard who told me that I was very hard done by. I looked up a website that night which stated that 500 Euro was the maximum fine I could have got! I paid it before I left of course but it nearly killed me!

        • stiofanc02

          Sorry you got f’kd but Im glad they are catching people who talk on phones while attempting to drive.
          It is one of the laws that actually make sense.
          Now if they could get Paddy to stay on HIS SIDE OF THE WHITE LINE when driving against you, we may actually see some progress.
          They drive better in China.

        • coldblow

          Emigrant lass

          My blood is boiling. Sounds like it was never posted.

          Who are the fools who set a E500 fine for this nonsense? To say nothing of the guard who booked you. In past years their great obsession was dog licences.

          A friend’s brother was once summoned for a silly speeding offence (33 or something in a 30 mph zone, leaving a town) and had to take time off work to attend the court (he had to drive like a lunatic to get there on time by the way). In this instance the judge was angry about him having to lose a day’s work over such a trivial matter and dismissed the case. But it’s the arbitrariness of what judge you’ll get and what mood he’ll be in or what his or her pet hates are that’s galling.

          My own nightmare is a pc judge. The vibes would be wrong from the start (man).

    • Tony Brogan

      Hi Grey Fox

      I do not think the above site is where you want us to look

      I found this which is perhaps your blog?

      Great video of action by the people.

      Good messages here

  14. BrianC

    Yes the four courts is a very interesting place. But it must be understood it is nothing to do about getting justice it is all about administering justice. That is just the scheme of things. In the main it is a money making machine but there is goodness there too.

    It is also very important to state that there are some really very good honourable people plying their trade there. Maybe I should not mention their names but I had occasion to be in serious need of help in a liquidation matter in 2004 and two true gentlemen came to my assistance Bill Holohan (Solicitor) and Ted Harding (Junior Counsel). They represented me over a three year period and spent 5 days in the high court representing my case. It was extremly complex.

    The fact is I did not have one red cent to pay them and they never got one red cent for all the work they did. As human beings they went beyond any call of duty. But someday I will pay them. Even now I experience trauma at not being able to make any paymet to them whatsoever. There are no words to describe what those true honourable good gentlemen did for me.

    It was very interesting to see how they worked and they had fantastic intellects and they were able to interpret all the hidden signals the judge was giving. But what I also witnessed in there was tragic; despite whatever arguement you might put before the judge it was very clear to me that the judge placed greater emphasis on seniority of counsel. Hate to say that but you would have to be there to have witnessed it.

    Anyway back to the courts. Sadly it is all about administering justice and many in that world are totally isolated from the reality of the true economics in Ireland.

    The Irish State is still in denial as to the reality of the situation. Falling asset values absence of liquidity heightened flow of income to the public sector key indicators of a depression not a recession and they believe austerity programs and piling more debt upon debt will produce growth. Now there is ignorance there is stupidity and there is even something more stupid than being stupid which is being intellectually sterile and barren as expressed in the alliance between FG and Labour.

    Bottom line the courts are set to remain busy and get busier and justice must be administered even if the plaintiff knows the defendant has no means to make a payment. But then again the plaintiff must be seen to do something rather than face up to facts and realise they need to write the debt down and move on even if it means liquidating their own business. We are now firmly living in a world of denial just like the government believes that upward rents are correct in a depressed economy. Moroneconomics.

  15. coldblow

    Great article and comments.

    David, I just got it: Dickens!

  16. patrick74

    a bit out left field – but. ‘Romantic Ireland: From The Streets’ was an exhibition of art work hung at Anglo Irish HQ, North Wall Quay, Dublin. As Anglo Irish Bank was a central player in the madness that went on in this country. This site is an exceptionally appropriate and evocative symbol of the audacity shown in the previous 20 years and the results of that audacity. We own this building through NAMA therefore no permission need be sought to use it. Nobody sought permission to spend our taxes on private debt.
    ‘September 1913′ is a century old acceptable and relevant comment on the effect of greed on the ideals of a nation. It was hung on St. Patrick’s Day – it seemed appropriate to display an artistic response on this day that shows we’re also capable of a bit of reflection.

    This exhibition is an artistic response. It is part of a wider ongoing discussion around ideas of sovereignty and nationhood. Was it always like this? Are ordinary people consistently sold a lie for the benefit of a relatively small group of people? It has the potential to establish a starting point for a different discussion on Ireland. Is there a place for idealism? Is it a romantic notion? Is idealism interchangeable with naivety? What does it mean to be Irish? What is the relationship between the economy and being Irish? Or the economy and sovereignty or being Irish and sovereignty? We were in the exact same place 100 years ago. The exhibition is a statement of a few things, one of which is that there are many people who never lost the run of themselves over the course of the economic ‘boom’. These people are still here. While the only discussion about Ireland to be heard is about the economy, this exhibition concerns what’s best in being Irish — Creativity, Self reliance, Community.

    It was done for free by all participants.
    Yesterday- it was removed to a place unknown- By who/what entity/authority, we do not know.

  17. Furry Laird

    I’ve just spoken to a prominent auctioneer in Limerick who was only speaking of doom & gloom all over and the cosy cartel of the closeted professions registered with NAMA . He gave me an example how a standard valuation of a normal soapbox of a house costing between €100 and €140 and because his firm were not registered with NAMA could not get the job and instead went to a firm who charged €750 and what more got the valuation all wrong .

  18. gizzy

    The system is designed to deal with a few who won’t pay not many who can’t.

    As to the legal system it derives it’s income from the top 2% in the country Denis O Brien The O Reillys
    and a few others.

    The State then is a big contributor though Nama, the Banks, Tribunals.

    Then it is the bottom 2% who reoffend on a regular basis, are gievn short sentences hit the revolving door so we have all the examples of 94 previous convictions. Of course the State through Legal aid pays for this

    Why would the people who live of this system ever change it. It is a major scandal but is everpresent so is accepted as the norm.

    The professionals were up to their elbows in the boom and are still scavenging in the recession.

  19. David,

    would you consider a quickie?

    Household charges!


  20. molly66

    Can somebody explan how eircom bond holders get burned and Anglo bond holders don’t when will this current government cop on.

  21. Grey Fox

    I have heard rumours and rumblings that Ulster bank is seriously evaluating writing off all bad debts in Ireland, the parent RBS is absolutely single minded in its intention to get the hell out of Ireland, but whoa! don’t think Ulster has suddenly grown a heart, there want is not out of concern of the common man, the Saudi’s are considering making a bid for 70% of RBS and I think they want Ireland sorted out first, as it is a complete basket case in RBS eyes.
    Watch this space, we are in strange times indeed!
    If I was working as a teller in Ulster, I would be very worried!

    • Lord Jimbo

      RBS are under pressure to clean up their mess, sorting out their Irish operations one way or another clearly adds up.

  22. The professions need a rude awakening.

    My own profession- architecture is in a similar position in that the people it is supposed to serve (unless they are rich/ powerful clients) are seen as underlings there to serve the higher purpose of supporting the profession.

    It’s sad but true.

    • Colin

      Yes, you are right. And your fellow architects have sucked up to the corrupt/inept politicians and that’s why you have had the title ‘Architect’ protected recently. Snobbery of the highest order.

      • Juanjo R

        I’m not sure if that is all true.

        The requirements for entry are ridulous in comparision to almost every other country in Europe not to mind the world. A competent degree is often enough qualification for the title in most places.

        In terms of protectionism I’d say though that they have have closed the gate on a profession with no work and far too many members – so it is all to little or no avail. Also there are now 4 schools of Architecture in the Rep.of Ireland as opposed to 2 a few years back producing graduates for a dead market. What architects remain active are all busy undercutting each other for what small work remains.

        I’d say too they have no real collective influence with politicans, and never had. Registration was done to conform with Europe and the Greens agenda and even at that was pretty low on the list of Government priorities.

        And it’s not the politicans some of them got into bed with, it is the chief developer interests in Ireland.

        But it is a type of closed shop, by design or not, I would agree. They need to be legally challenged for that to change, or come to that conclusion themselves and decide that it is a bad thing.

        Regarding yourself – you have stated before here that you are a building designer and hence I’ll infer from that that you are an architect – so I find your ‘us and them’ attitude perplexing.

        • Colin

          No. I’m a civil engineer. I do deal with Architects at work. The change came in 2007, after years of lobbying, so it was done during the boom, yet they were greedy and selfish during the boom. The gate was closed on those who practiced for years as architects without the formal training as an architect. Self taught in other words. So now, the government discriminates aginst those who educate and train themselves, you couldn’t make this shit up!

  23. michaelcoughlan


    This is very informative more than visionary if once again without the next bit which only someone as clearly capable as you David can deliver which is; where do we go from here? Unless they transfer the loan books of AIB and BOI to the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation or establish a new clean bank for lending to the internal Irish economy we be fucked.

    I am just curious to know and you probably won’t respond anyway was any banker or regulator before the courts charged with criminal neglect of their duties? I’d say not.

    Part of the reason we are where we are is that the pomp and ceremony only seems to be applied to the little people and the lee Harvey Ostwald’s like your man in Castleblaney because when you have corporate psychos in charge of international finance you hardly think they will promote talent do you?


    If you haven’t read the book confessions of an economic hitman by john Perkins. Even if you don’t believe what is written in there it’s a dam good read!

  24. any chance of a few bob

    Hi David,

    As you briefly referred to China in your article what is your take on their meeting with the NTMA. Is it carpetbagging or may it be of some use to us, the owners of the properties?

  25. Grey Fox

    Well folks the deed is done, a sovereign bond not replaces the 3.1 billion promissary note, the bond will be issued to IBRC and financed by Bank of Ireland who in return will be financed by the ECB, the slight of hand continues, and as a side note, there were not responses to this staement allowed in the Dail a couple of minutes ago, and the dail has returned to the business at hand, “Sheep worrying by dogs on the Cooley Peninsula Co. Louth” which is infinitely more important than a matter of national importance. What a joke!

  26. gizzy

    The household charge is worth an article. It is another case of the bill for state inefficiencies beign passed onto the citizens. The charge is to pay wages and pensions in the councils not for services. Dublin city council have a cost of 3 euros for every euro in services they provide.

    We now have unemployed people being taxed to pay other people’s wages. Bizarre.

    • coldblow

      I inadvertently put RTE Radio 1 on yesterday and before I could reach for the off button I heard some official droning on about how important it was for people to realize that the money will be earmarked exclusively for the local authorities. So that’s all right then. We don’t need to worry about the property tax bit just down the road. I think they’ve finally lost it here.

    • Deco

      There are 1000 planning officials in the local authorities who have nothing to do. Zilch. Nada.

      So we will enforce a compulsory charge on the state so as to make sure that this can continue to be afforded.

      It can’t. It is a waste of resources.

      By the way, you can bet that some of those planning officials are corrupt. You can be certain that a substantial quantity of them are there thanks to nepotism and “the party”.

      And when I look at all the ugly monstrosities, and bad planning decisions, you can be certain that a lot of them are incompetent when it comes to doing their job.

      They are also a massive problem for local authorities because they must continue to get paid, while doing nothing.

      So here we are with an exellent opportunity to clear the decks.

      And the new ‘alternative’ government refuses to throw them out and start afresh with a better approach to planning.

      By the way, I think at this stage a growing section of the population is getting sick of the waste going on in local authorities.

      Local authorities need to cut back on the waste, and the nonsense. They do not need more taxes to enable them to look busy.

      The current government is going to make taxation into an industry, sitting on top of the backs of the citizenry.

      • hibernian56

        Its true that most of them are doing nothing, but anytime I try to contact one of them “they are on annual leave”.

        We always referred to the planning dept. as “the reject shop”. It’s no longer funny, these “rejects” are still being paid.

  27. Deco

    We are still intellectually bankrupt.

    This is the result of a morally bankrupt Irish establishment, and of the control the exert on the society, via the media.

    • Yeah….even more so after the brain drain

    • hibernian56

      Here’s a current list of our Governement, their profession and how long they have been a professional liar;

      Muinteoir Enda Kenny = Taoiseach = School teacher, took over his father’s seat after his death in a parochial by-election. Pro politician since 1975

      Muinteoir Michael Noonan = Finance Minister = School teacher, has a h.Dip in economics, career politician. Pro politician since 1974

      Eamon Gilmore = Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade = Union representative (Anti business / trade??), career public servant. Never had a private sector job. Pro politician since 1985

      Simon Coveny = Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine = Degree in farm management, career politician, took over seat of his father after his death (parochial politics at its best). Pro politician since 1998

      Jimmy Deenihan = Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht = GAA footballer, career politician. No 3rd level education. Pro politician since 1983

      Frances Fitzgerald = Minister for Children and Youth Affairs = Social worker, career politician. Pro politician since 1992

      Pat Rabbitte = Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources = Union representative (Colleague of Eamon Gilmore), career public servant. Pro politician since 1985

      Ruairi Quinn = Minister for Education and Skills = Won all-Ireland Texaco Children’s Art competition, Architect, Career politician. Likes Armani suits (tax deductible). Pro politician since 1976

      Phil Hogan = Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government = Higher diploma in “Education”, Career politician. Pro politician since 1982

      James Reilly = Minister for Health = Medical Doctor, ex President of the Irish
      Medical Organisation. Active property developer around Lusk / Rush, North Dublin. Pro politician since 2007

      Richard Bruton = Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation = Worked at ESRI & CRH. Brother of John Bruton, ex Taoiseach. Pro politician since 1979

      Alan Shatter = Minister for Justice and Equality & Minister for Defence = Solicitor,
      open defender of Israeli actions in Gaza. Pro politician since 1981

      Brendan Howlin = Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform = School teacher, active member of INTO (fighting for better pay & privilege for teachers). Pro politician since 1983

      Joan Burton = Minister for Social Protection = Accountant, university lecturer (mainly in Tanzania). Pro politician since 1991

      Leo Varadkar = Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport = Medical Doctor, Pro politician since 2004

      Máire Whelan = Attorney General = Barrister, recently converted form the other group of professional liars

      Paul Kehoe = Government Chief Whip = Farmer, pro politician since 2002

      And saving the best till last..

      Jan O’Sullivan = Minister of State for Housing and Planning = Montessori teacher, ran a family planning clinic!! Pro politician since 1983

      So there you have it. Would you give any of them a job let alone allow them to run a country?

      My next task (if the weathers bad tomorrow) is to do up a simple spread sheet to try and calculate how much each one of these bluffers has gouged off us since they decided to stop contributing to society.

      They are a pariah.

  28. C21living

    Not one single poster on this thread has focused on the essential part of DMcW’s article, namely that a tidal wave of mortgage defaults is coming very soon.

    Last I heard (1 or 2 months ago) at least 80,000 home mortgages were 3 months in arrears or more. Nobody can seriously believe these people can come back from there. More likely they’ll slip even further behind, and be joined by more and more couples slipping into arrears.

    All the comments so far have been on the ridiculous pageantry of the Irish courtroom, a 19th century hand-me-down from British rule in Ireland.

    So why is nobody addressing the mortgage default catastrophe?


    …unlike the Catholic church catastrophe of the Murphy and Ryan reports….

    …unlike the Fianna Fáil catastrophe of the Mahon tribunal report…

    …the mortgage default catastophe is the aspect of Irish shame that implicates the ordinary people in making a mess of things.

    Nobody else is to blame. Hence, Irish people talk about something else, anything else, than this most dramatic of all stories.

    Irish people deny problems until the last moment, every single time.

    Remember Mssrs Cowen and Lenihan denying the Troika bailout to the last moment.

    Expect your average Irish couple to pretend nothing is wrong until the very day they are up in court for non-payment of their mortgage.

    The public will behave the same as Cowen, Lenihan, B.Ahern, Cardinal Cullen, etc, etc. The Irish are all the same – deny, deny, deny, deny even as the evidence piles higher and higher and the stench of something rotten in Denmark more unbearable.

    In conclusion, I’ve never met anyone who said they were behind on their mortgage repayments. I’ll bet the same is true of everyone reading this post. Why? Because Irish will lie and deny, until the last moment, the moment of truth.

    • Grey Fox

      I am 9457.00 in arrears on my Mortgage, there, I have allieviated one of your concerns, I am happ and content in the fact that I am paying what I can afford to pay on a monthly basis, currently in agreement with my Bank, when that interim agreement runs out in August 2012 I will atempt to extend it, if the Bank is not agreeable I will continue to pay the same amount monthly, or I might pay it weekly to multiply my intent to perform, it is my observation in the courts,(I have cause to spent considerable time there recently on Civil Matters) is that Judges are increasingly refusing to give Orders for Repossession were the home owner is genuinely paying what they can afford. I am happy with my home, I have no intention to move/sell it in my lifetime, therefore the arrears are only an issue of concern for the Bank, arrears do not enter into my thinking nor are they a matter of concern to me, I have bigger things to concern myself with such as my children and my life partner, incidentally I refer to my common law wife as my life partner because it sounds nicer, we did not get civily married because I do not have to ask permission of any government trustee, it is in fact the opposite in all matters.
      The solution to the 80,000 mortgages in default (bank view) is to pay what you can (honestly). your conscience is then clear (cannot say the same for the Banksters) and you can live your life to its fullest potential.

      • pay them 50 euro a month, and they can not claim you are unwilling to pay, is even cheaper than the household charge. Ask them for your own records to freeze interest payments backdated to 2008.

    • cooldude

      The tone of this comment is typical of the Enda like theme of the stupid people borrowed too much and are somehow guilty. This is absolute crap as the asset bubble that was created in real estate came directly from the low interest rate policy of the ECB in the early 2000′s. On top of this we had the endless media coverage of the property ladder… you can’t go wrong with bricks and mortar and all sorts of persuasion from the banks that you were an idiot if you were not involved in the housing market. Now these same idiots are trying to label mortgage holders as somehow irresponsible and that they should have known better. I don’t buy any of this and I feel 100% for the unfortunate young families who have been caught up in this negative equity mess. Near zero interest rates punishes savers and always creates asset bubbles like the horrible one we are now experiencing in this country. This problem is entirely a creation of central banking and its two overlords the IMF and the World Bank. These two organizations are run by the elite bankers to overview central banking and to deliberately create asset bubbles across the world. Then the IMF come in to bail out the stricken countries and their friends then asset strip the country for cents on the euro. This is not the fault of the ordinary Irish people who followed all the advice being given at the time. The problem was created deliberately by the banking elites to eventually asset strip this country.

      • C21living

        Ah but I feel 110% for the unfortunate families stuck in negative equity. Members of my own family are stuck in negative equity, meaning my family are stuck in negative equity.

        That wasn’t my point. My point was that this subject is taboo, it’s not talked about, using precisely the same psychological dynamic of denial that existed when clerical abuse was not socially acceptable to talk about, and the intricate, forensic details of planning corruption were not acceptable to talk about, because that was ‘being negative’.

        In 2007 900,000 voters voted for the party who openly insulted people ‘cribbing and moaning from the sidelines’.

        Whose fault is it that this attitude led the country. The man in the moon? The faceless EU bureaucrats? The bankers? No, it was the people of Ireland who voted this attitude to represent them, because they are over 18 and can make up their own mind about things and Bertie’s famous rant DID REPRESENT THEIR VIEW, which is why they were FF voters.

        You say Irish people “followed advice being given to them at the tim”‘. This is not a defense for adult people. You sound like the Germans after the war who claimed the rise of the Third Reich and the death camps was not their fault, it was the fault of the international Jewish conspiracy. The Germans, you see, were just doing what they were told in the hope that what they were doing was advancing their interests.

        In other words, like the Germans, the Irish went temporarily insane during the Celtic Tiger. Of course, your response is to actually prolong the embarrassement for Ireland and the Irish by blaming property supplements, central banks and so on for private borrowing. Would the Irish thank the “Central Bankers” if they made a fortune in property equity on the way up? Of course not!! They’d claim full ownership of their success, and you know it too!!

        Everyone who is Irish knows what I’m saying is true, but the veniality and disingenuity continues, and most of all the slightly insane denial.

        • C21living

          By all means, don’t pay the property tax as a protest about the banker bailout.

          By all means, vote no to the fiscal compact.

          I’m politically as far away from FG/Labour on the banker bailout as it’s possible to be. I’d be much closer to Shane Ross or Sinn Féin’s position – we need a bonfire.

          But the Irish who refuse to talk about their middle class shame of negative equity? The country can’t get out of the hole it’s in unless and until the full facts of our predicament are firmly, forensically established.

          But as I said above, nobody admits they’re in debt. Instead they fudge the discussion by throwing pillow cushions at straw men like EU bureaucrats or bankers or the public sector unions.

          Almost 100,000 homes are 3 months behind on their mortgages. This should be front page news every day until the entire matter is resolved. Instead, we get denial and straw man attacks and Joe Duffy rants about bin collections.

          It’s almost as bad as the delusional nonsense people believe about the soon-to-stabilize property market. Insane and delusional, based on cowardly denial!

          • redriversix

            Fear , shame and pride have been sold in this Country for years.It will take some longer than others to wake up from it,but we will wait for them and help them, if asked.


    • Juanjo R


      If you want a reply you should leave some space and time for people to reply?

      The mass mortgage default is sort of a given so personally didn’t comment on it above. It’s expected to hit 10% of mortgages this year and has been widely reported for quite a while now.

      I have a number problems with whining about it. People are frequently inaccurate when they comment on it and I find myth is quickly replacing fact, much as it did when the problem accumulated.

      “Safe as houses” – remember that saying anyone?

      To elaborate first off there is the trotting out of the myth of reposessions against ordinary people – when there have been very,very few and usually by non-state backed entities. Heres a factual link with stats.;

      Secondly, there is the supposition that the owner occupier buyer are the main ones in default when market information suggests it is the speculators that are defaulting in the main and in impossible positions. This is the biggest reason you are not hearing about mortage arrears on the street, I’d say. The majority of the stories are about investments gone wrong where people already have title on their homes or secure situations. This is a ‘mature’ part of Ireland that is losing out D McW.’s ‘accidental millionaires’. Like a loss on the horses nobody mentions it except perhaps in passing. With banks not closing in legally on secondary assets, primary assets are not threatened – at least yet.

      I’d guess to that some of the Tribunal fees went this way judging by the talk of

      To support my point factually – i’m pointing to this independent UCD report on the housing market from early 2010;

      To summarise from it – non first-time buyer mortgage lending stood at 26,31 and 26 billion euros in Ireland in 2005, 2006 and 2007 but had dropped to 5 billion by 2009. Dwelling completions peaked at 90,000 units in 2006. Irelands average annual populations need is 35-40,000 units – all things going well economically. The rest is surplus speculation. Half a million of Irelands 2 million dwelling stock was completed between 2002-2008 with another 200,000 or so added between 1997-2001.

      In the peak year of 2006 204,000 mortgages were issued in Ireland ( note not strictly for Ireland ) some 40,000 were to first time buyers ( not strictly home owners ) by 2009 that figure was down to 46,000 and 13,000 respectively – a lot closer to the population need figure above.

      The speculation is clear. It is not limited to Ireland, it should be noted too, though we are on the hook for it all now. The people Iceland refused to be hooked for the same type of debt.

      Frankly – the banks have decided its easier to get cash from the state and keep pretending the market will resusitate and give the general impression they are not leaching off us.

      p.8 of the prior document makes a key point in linking recovery with real pricing … ” interventions including those of Nama which attempt to prevent normal downward price corrections can often delay rather than prevent the eventual normal market recovery process begining”. I would argue that is the case too, with this slow farce of a legal system. Hence my comments above.

      Finally, my heart does go out to any genuine home occupier owner caught in a bad mortgage arrears situation not of their making. If you are one and are reading this hang in there – try to play it smart and remember you are one of many in difficultly. You can survive.

      • Juanjo R

        Apologies – deletion error in the middle of that.

        “I’d guess to that some of the Tribunal fees went this way judging by the recent reporting of property syndicates going south.”

      • redriversix

        Their is “Life after debt”……

        I and my family are still here after losing everything.

        I now know what is really important and fear is not one of them,DO A BUDGET,Put your FAMILY AND YOU first.Do the best you can with Bank debt,if its not good enough,don,t worry about it.

        Every day is a good day , just some days are better than others.

        Scrap fear now.

        Take care


  29. rebean

    Looks like property is falling faster now. It beggars belief . I never thought it would get this bad. I figured 60% from peak about two years ago. I think 50% is actually what its worth . Now I am gobsmacked to say the least. Looks like you will get an appartment in the city for 80 grand soon. My heart goes out to the unlucky people who bought at the wrong time. Its amazing you would be better off on the dole your whole life than been selfemployed making some cash and buying property during 2004 to 2008. It was all about timing. I sold a house in 2008 for alot more than I will ever get for it now. I cannot believe how lucky I was. my heart goes out to all those people stuck in negitive equity.

    • Colin

      You could help by making a donation to St Vincent de Paul, if you really feel that strongly about it. I’m sure lots of families would prefer that too.

      If you wanna buy another property in the future, and are willing to pay 50% fall from peak for it, even though it may be advertised with an asking price of 75% fall from peak, well good luck with that business acumen.

  30. Philip

    I think of that family in Limerick who have had to emigrate becasue the Gardai and the law could not be bothered to protect them from those who intimidated them. Knock over a ministerial gaff and days later we have the suspects hauled up.

    I see formr developers who appear to have no money with huge outstanding maintenace charges on apartments they own to the detriment of the rest of the tenants trying to keep the place well kept. They are legally untouchable and still drive around in their 11D 4bee4s as though nothing has happened. They are bust we are told.

    I see squeezed middle classes torn apart by weekly commutes to work in London trying to keep the banks off their back. Legal eagles ready to pounce. No one is looking after their interests at all.

    David, you say we are heading for mass default. As far as I am concerned, we have arrived. The come to Jesus sessions are about to begin and soon there will be nowhere to run.

    Hope the weather keeps up.

  31. Really liked this article David.
    Brilliant writing.

    • redriversix

      Evening All

      Let me get this straight………Government issues bond of 3.1 Billion to Anglo…Anglo cannot take a bond as it needs cash….to “pay E.C.B OR CENTRAL BANK………Anglo bring Bond to N.A.M.A who have agreed to “cash” it…….In a few weeks,N.A.M.A brings “Bond” to Bank Of Ireland who will cash it for N.A.M.A……….Then issue a Bond of 3.1 Billion euro maturing in 2025……………….E.C.B said this evening it is a internal State matter and they do not interfere with states as to how the money appears as long as they are paid on the 31st March.

      Is this correct David ? or am I missing something…….

      • cooldude

        This is all a load of crap. This debt is fraudulent in every way and needs to be defaulted on. Full stop. All these shenanigans are typical Irish solution to someone else’s problem because we haven’t the balls to tell these “unsecured” bond holders to go and take a hike. I use the word fraud deliberately. In criminal law fraud is the crime of deliberately deceiving another to damage them. This is exactly what is happening to the Irish people. We are being deceived and it is not only damaging us it is damaging our children and their children. This debt that Michael Noonan is playing footsie with is not in any way or form the responsibility of the citizens of this state. By defaulting on all this promissory note debt we would send a clear signal to the bankers that they can no longer rule over this country. Iceland did it because their President stopped the corupt politicians by calling a referendum on their debt and the people voted to let the reckless bankers pay for their own idiotic mistakes. They now have an unemployment rate of 6.5% and can borrow money at reasonable rates. We on the other hand have somehow got it into our heads that private bank debt which is unsecured should somehow be transferred to our future generations. If we don’t do this our politicians were warned ” a bomb would go off in Dublin”. What a shower of lilly livered cowards this government has turned out to be. Vote NO in May to all this nonsense. If that means bringing down our insolvent banking system then good riddance to bad rubbish. Also if it means Croke Park will have to be replaced by a more Dalymount Park style agreement then so be it. We can only have a “public service ” that the public can afford. Time to get real on this one.

        • redriversix

          Evening Cooldude

          I forgot to mention that this Debt, the Governments actions this Week, becomes a Sovereign/State Debt instead of a “Banking”debt……………..

          I hope everybody cops on to this Circus “slight of hand” because it is so insulting to our intelligence that this is the best story they could come up with…………..What a disgrace..”ahhhhh,but what can we do” ?

          VOTE NO TO THIS FISCAL FASCIST AUSTERITY SOCIETY CRUSHING GARBAGE ON THE 31st May……..and we shall be just fine or….no worse off than we are now.


      • Grey Fox

        RR6, it is my understanding from the “announcement” micky noonan made today the ultimately it is the ECB who will fund the bond for BOI, probably by way of the LTRO.
        The long and the short of it is, the entire excercise stinks to high heaven!
        Cooldude, I would modify one of your statements, ” We can only have a Public Service that serves the Public”
        and that includes the politicians.

        • redriversix

          Evening Grey fox

          That’s why N.A.M.A has to wait a “few weeks”..before BOI “cash’s the bond as they have to get the money to do so……..from the ECB………

          “Its a great auld Country” and have the sleepwalkers will believe this fraud as a win for the government……unbelievable


          • Tony Brogan

            Good morning RR6, Grey fox, Cooldude and other fine posters

            Let us look at “Odious Debt”. It is not debt that smells , although you might disagree, it is debt accrued by a corrupt regime not working in the interests of the people governed. It is the responsibility of the regime and not the people.


            “When a despotic regime contracts a debt, not for the needs or in the interests of the state, but rather to strengthen itself, to suppress a popular insurrection, etc, this debt is odious for the people of the entire state. This debt does not bind the nation; it is a debt of the regime, a personal debt contracted by the ruler, and consequently it falls with the demise of the regime. The reason why these odious debts cannot attach to the territory of the state is that they do not fulfil one of the conditions determining the lawfulness of State debts, namely that State debts must be incurred, and the proceeds used, for the needs and in the interests of the State. Odious debts, contracted and utilised for purposes which, to the lenders’ knowledge, are contrary to the needs and the interests of the nation, are not binding on the nation — when it succeeds in overthrowing the government that contracted them — unless the debt is within the limits of real advantages that these debts might have afforded. The lenders have committed a hostile act against the people, they cannot expect a nation which has freed itself of a despotic regime to assume these odious debts, which are the personal debts of the ruler.[2]”

            By my book any debt assumed for any reason by a government that is not borrowed for a good reason to benefit the people is odious and not payable by the people.So when the goverment is changed it can revoke that debt. What a platform to run on. If you can’t find one to adopt the policy maybe we can form one that will.
            The Irish Sovereign Party has a nice ring to it!!??

            I repeat for the umteenth time
            Revoke the odious debt (that is tell the banks who have unloaded their privite debt on to the public purse to go stuff it and they are bankrupt (totally fitting word) and gone. A new bank properly capilatized will move in to the void. The sky will not fall. businesses come and go all the time!

            This does not help those unfortunates with their delinquent mortgages. People must take resposibility for their own actions. Too many sound like the schoolkid caught in the act. “It’s not my fault, he (pointing a finger) made me do it.”

            The basic problem is the money system. Engineered by the banks to create unlimited credit and agreed to by coniving politicians we are all ensnared in a debt trap of widening proportions.
            It is designed to Pauperize the population and cause social strife. We are dealing with a corrupt form of money and the result is the corruption of society.

            We then cry out in anguish and look for a saviour, and /or the masses take to the streets. governments invoke harsher laws. Even Marshal law is declared , freedoms and rights are cancelled, authoritarian rule is established.

            The will of the people is thwarted and the road to total domination is closer. The reason for the Monetary union is to control under one despot the group of nations affected. One world government is closer then ever. International law supercedes sovereign law and individual rights are snuffed.

            Grey Fox’s brilliant commentary on The law and the Sovereign Individual is the other end of the spectrum.

            The people of Ireland have a choice in May to start the road back to individual sovereignty, individual freedom, and individual resposibility.

            I remember a quote some thing along the lines of “Freedom is never attained it is always being constantly striven for”

            There is a chance for the Irish to be a free confident sovereign people the envy of the world.

            To the monetary system MUST be changed. The reason gold and silver is termed honest money is because it is not corrupted like the fiat. Money is rightfully private property and not the pervue of the state.

            Firstly close the state central bank.
            Make treasury the issuer of currency.
            Ban fractional reserve banking (where commecial banks are licenced to create money from nothing and lend it into existance as a debt.)
            Treasury notes will be earned into existence and there will be no interest attached and there will be no addition to the national debt.
            Issue silver coin as money (previously described in earlier posts)
            The government accrues bullion to the account of the people.
            Mow Treasury can issue new nots that are fully redeamable for a given weight of silver. and the fiat treasury notes are phased out of existance.
            The country returns to a commodity based currency (currency is the note behind which it is backed by money, to distinguish the difference between currency and money)
            The country returns to commodity money.
            A sovereighn people must have honest money to remain sovereign. honest money prevents corruption from and by politicians as the government is forced to live within its means

            And lastly, the education system will be adapted so that the youth learn about there history, heritage, and resposibilities
            They must receive instruction in monetary history, finance, and law. Only a well educated knowledgable people can protect themselves from totalitarianism.

            Enjoy the day

    • I echo that …aaaat aaaaat aaaat aaat aat aat at

  32. Just a thought on the promisory note “deal”:

    Having watched the RTE show with Minister Noonan, I admit to experience a burning temptation to comment on his body language and facial expressions in great detail, but in Ireland 2012 the blasphemy law or defamation act of 2009 carrying a 25,000 Euro maximum fine stopped me in my tracks.

    Would you ever have thought that PapaRatzi would convert to Islam?

    Exactly, it is not going to happen as long as there are expensive enough drugs available to fight his shoulder arthrosis just enough so he can still wave his paypal Greetings…I mean papal Greetings from the balcony to the bondholders… I mean his sheep.

    What the Pope and Noonan have in common you may ask? It is not the shoulder arthrosis, that much I can promise you.
    The overall importance of the announcement resonates with me as strong as the news back in 2006 when the Tennis legend Martina Navratilova actively engaged to defend the right of sheep to be gay.

    Considerable amounts of taxpayers money was spent on research of gay sheep in the US at the turn of the millennium and to Martina’s dismay researchers at the Oregon State now claimed to have discovered a cure for gay sheep.

    My world had changed forever.

    • coldblow

      Hi Georg

      Glad you found time in your busy schedule to bring up the fount of all contemporary evil.

      Now it’s just a question of rounding up all those lame albinos hulking around Paris. Just check out those with suspicious names (Silas) who talk like Montgomery Byrnes. Excellent! Failing that, there’s always “the Prelature of the Vatican known as Opus Dei”. They should be in Golden Pages.

      I just got one of them cilice yokes. Everyone says it’s ‘cool’!

      I give a dire sigh…

  33. Does no one around here have that funny feeling in his stomach about the BOI and NAMA involvement at all, or was it the allegedly brilliant and outstanding value of Super Values less than fucking moderate 2009 Saint Chinian causing the noise in my peristaltic?

    • redriversix

      I have no Idea what that means Georg

      But it sounds ominous ! ! !



    • Grey Fox

      Georg, I would much prefer it was the 2009 Saint Chinian because at least the altered state of my mind caused by my ingestion of the same would wear off by the morning unlike the after effects of listening to Micky (Mouse) Noonan in the Dail today, obfuscating the truth to a degree which causes a state of nausea which feels like it is perpetual, and without the benefit of having massaged my peristaltic with sometime delicious.

      • Good evening Grey Fox

        Charles Baudelaire’s Fleur du Mal is an excellent read! Much more entertaining than this dilettante banker propaganda jabbered by the guy who was politically resurrected on the Pat Kenny show with considerable private tears before taking his chair.

        A charade… nothing but a charade, really!

  34. I was talking briefly to the nice chap who delivers my post today, as I talk to everyone I meet about the household charge.

    Did not take more than 2 seconds, and he said NO WAY! and pulled a letter from a union, I did not read it but it must have mentioned something about very rich people.

    I said, that’s not why I refuse it.

    I give a fuck about very rich people, I feel sorry for them to be honest.

    What I think is this:

    The Canada health act of 1984 makes health services available for everyone nearly for free!

    The quality is outstanding, and they are not collecting data on individual’s health at all.

    Pharmaceutical medication is covered by public funds. Drug prices are controlled. Your physician is YOUR choice. Preventative care and early detection are normal.

    There is no economical competition between hospitals.

    So, FUCK YOU telling us since how long now how difficult all that is to achieve.

    It is a cost effective system, because of administrative simplicity.

    Canadians pay tax on their properties.

    I was in Canada, I would agree to pay tax on my property on the delivery of such services to ALL CITIZENS!

    Living in Ireland paying house hold charges?

    Excuse my german, but FUCK YOU, you are trespassing, you have about 10 seconds before I open the door.

    • Apart from my personal thoughts and decision….

      I was told today…. there are some people running around in faked official ways claiming to come from the council…targeting elderly peoples homes… to COLLECT the household charges.

      Please, do talk to you neighbors if you have elderly neighbors and explain to them that they are not supposed to hand over money to NO ONE!

      ….Geeze… I hope one of them knocks on my door….

    • If someone knocks on your door…. take you camera, phone… whatever… make a picture of the person and a second one of his identification… then send him to Hell.

    • Tony Brogan

      Good morning George

      Lots of debate here on the quality of medical coverage. Here in BC there is an annual charge unless the income level is too low.(means tested)
      Medicine is a Provincial resposibility and not everything is smelling roses.
      As an Individual I pay $60 a month for basic medical serivces.
      You can pick your own doctor if you can find one accepting more patients. Walk in clinics are being run for those who can not get their own doctor. These operate 5pm-8 pm. go and line up.
      All prescriptions must be paid for (free for the destitute on a means test basis)My regular pills are another500 a year.
      no dental is included. My basic costs me about $1500 a year or 150 for the semi annual inspection and cleaning and the occasional cap at $1200 on a bad tooth needed.
      Recent reports suggest we are 30th in the world for health care. I have no idea on the standard used
      The provincial budget is running a DEFICIT and a large part of the budget is the medical plan.
      Hospitals in Victoria are good and coronary surgery the best there is.
      Realestate is taxed at the local level to pay municipal charges at roughly half a percent per annun of the value of the realestate. Includes police and fire and municipal roads and parks.

      My son at 27 years has sufferred for 10 years with serious muscular pain after any kind of exercise. Started with his hands after playing the piano and now affects his whole body. Too much walking and pain in the legs, too much talking and pian in the throat and the jaw muscles. He is on constant pain medication to sleep. No answers from the medical people. One may see a doctor with a weeks delay (emergeny servuices are available at hostpitals) but to get any spacialist takes 6 months or longer.
      Wait 18 months to get hip or knee surgery.

      I am happy with my services. I have two new lenses in my eyes that restored my sight from cateracts I am thankful.Cost me 300 an eye for a better lens than the standard provided. But I have paid 100′s of 1000′s in taxes so it is NOT A FREE SERVICE

      My son has no answers after 11 years of searching and a steadily dimished quility of life. Different stokes for different folks.

      The grass is greener sometimes

      • Thank Tony!

        compared to Ireland there is a functioning service!

        Ireland only created a super massive administrative cancer, in everything.

      • wills

        Tony Brogan,

        Regarding your son and his illness.

        Does he have amalgam / Silver / fillings in his teeth?

        • Tony Brogan

          Hi Wills
          I checked and has hardly ha even a filling of any kind. Not sure about the amalgum, I’ll follow that up.
          Ill see if he has been blood tested for metals.
          Thanks for the thoughts.

  35. MarkA

    Dear David,

    I think this country needs you back in the media to educate them now more than ever. I would suggest that if you want to reach the masses you set up a simple official like page on Facebook and share your knowledge through that medium.
    Either Michael Noonan, Fine Gael, Labour and Fine Fail are so completely stupid that they dont understand what they are doing or they are blatantly lying to the masses. Either way it has to stop and only people like yourself and Karl Whelan who appeared on Vincent Browne tonight have the intellectual respect to achieve this.
    I am not an economist but I believe, yet again, the Irish people are being financially raped with this promissory note deal and all the media and politicians are selling it to us as a good deal.
    My understanding of it is as follows. The money is being borrowed by the Irish People to pay the 3.1 billion (Approx)back to the Central Bank through IBRC, so for Michael Noonan to say its not is a blatant lie or ignorance on such a scale that he should be ousted immediately from office. However, instead of borrowing it at 5% approx from the Trioka We, the Irish People, are borrowing it at 6.8% from Bank Of Ireland. So we, the Irish people are paying more to the Bankers to refinance the Debt. The extra interest has to be financed from the tax revenue raised this year making the tax hole, which is inevitably coming due to not meeting targets on household charge, VAT increase etc, even bigger. I must admit I dont understand if this is to be financed for one year with Bank of Ireland how it is to be repaid if the Bond is for 13 years. But it seems to me its costing the Irish people 90 million and still has to be repaid next year. Essentially it seems to me that this is the worst possible deal for the Irish people. The Bankers again benefit and the bill for the tax payer just got bigger! If I am wrong someone please clarify it for me. If I am right can you please explain why the main opposition party and media are selling this to the people as a good deal for us the Irish People.
    I feel like Im sitting at the table in Wonderland with Alice (Kenny) and the Mad Hatter (Noonan).
    Your country needs you David. Shout louder! Please.
    Thank you.

    • I do not think it is David or Karl or Constantin and so many more really….. fill in whoever you see fit….none of them can express more than they already do…. but it is every single citizen in this country who needs to find their voice… and perhaps that is my hope… find this single little word….


      • C21living

        Suppose you’re 3 months behind on your mortgage payments.

        You just shout “ENOUGH!”, do you?

        And then the system is scared of you and there’s no problem, you don’t have to pay any more, you can just keep the house, anything please, just don’t frighten the authorities with your “ENOUGH!’ war cry any more, the police and revenue and judges and the rest are all quaking in our boots!

        We ain’t seen nothing yet. Sure there’s been a moritorium on repossessions. Wait until the repossessions start, because it’s only a matter of time.

        Time to get out of this country as it descends into a Greek tragedy, and a paddywackery farce on top with no-shows in court, violent agrarian attacks on bailiffs, etc, etc.

        The whole sorry joke is totally predictable.

  36. Peter Atkinson

    These bastards in Fine Gael and Labour need to be held accountable for the pre election promises they made.Plain and simple.Its no longer acceptable to lay the blame at the previous junta’s doostep.I was brought up to believe that capitalism was the way forward and socialism was for the poor and the disenfranchised.Well I can tell you when I look around me all I can see these days are socialists if I was to believe that teaching now.

    I can tell you here and now that the Spanish won’t roll over like the other three PIGS did.And guess what.The Germans are shitting themselves and talking about bigger “firewalls”.The French know the game is up and the ECB is now in danger of being engulfed in the biggest fire since the “big bang” in the Book of Genesis.

    The game is up.Stop complying with these insiders.Ignore what the say and do what you think is right and fair.Not what they say is the law.Because its a law it doesn’t mean its just one.Ask yourself, who makes these laws and what are their terms of reference.Do what is right for your family and your neighbour and watch this action spread.We don’t need these clowns sitting in the “big house” legislating for us.

    We as a people are being pushed to the limit.Remember how the Arab Spring started.One young man who had just about enough and made the ultimate sacrifice because he had no job and no prospects.Well strange enough but we have had a number of examples of this young man’s actions in this country which have conveniently gone unreported.

    • The people of Ireland, mothers, fathers, students, singles, all these people…. it is up to them to no longer support all this…


      I never supported anything like it!

      Are you sure?…

      Did you really say NO!

      How many people do you know that know someone who committed suicide. I am sorry, I do not bring this example on purpose to stir emotions, really not, but it is a bloody FACT!

      The numbers are through the roof, the poverty in countries like germany where over 9 millions people are enslaved in nonsense jobs for ridiculous payments are growing by the months. A chain like Super Value just is about to fire 11,000 more employees in Germany.

      This is a war on “ordinary” people, wage earners, people who struggled before to make ends meet as well, and people who never struggled and all of the sudden wonder… WTF happened to us?

      No one will or can change that but significant numbers of people, many more than we saw so far, many many more people to finally stand up….

  37. redriversix

    The mere fact that Merkel and Co are building a bigger firewall is more proof that their “Plans” are not working……..

    Vote no to failed Euro policies..

    • cooldude

      Hi RR6. Your analysis of the firewall is correct. The ECB is now just a “bad bank” for all the insolvent european banks to dump their dodgy collateral and get 100% payment for it. The ECB is now leveraged 36-1 which will cause problems. The big one is Spain. They had a similar central bank induced property bubble only it is 10 times the size of our one. They were building 700,000 units pa instead of the 70,000 here. To bailout out Spain and Portugal will cost trillions and they will try and do this with some more LTRO or something similar. At this stage I think they know that the whole unbacked money system is coming apart and they are trying to grab as much centralized power as possible before it implodes probably in an extreme inflationary event. That is the real reason for this ESM.

  38. redriversix

    Thats it.I have had enough !

    I’m ringin Joe Duffy……..No,don.t try and stop me,I’M Middle class and its my right to protest……….!!! [ if I am unemployed,am I still middle class ? ]

    • Adelaide

      No. You are no longer middle class if you are unemployed. You may retain the aspirations associated with the middle class but in reality you are an imposter. You will continue to talk the talk, but you no longer have the economic kudos to walk the walk. You are the human equivalent RTE’s ‘Nationwide’ program, ie existing in a twilight world of fanciful aspirations, and like the television, you have been turned off, nobody is listening, nobody is watching, everyone has gone to bed while you sit in the dark alone waiting for some economic saviour to switch the remote control and bring you back into some meaningful existence. In summary, you are a ghost.

  39. C21living

    At the very same moment the nation is descending into farce and confusion with only 30% having paid the household charge with 2 days to go to the deadline…

    …I see the DMcW blogroll is similarly descending into farce.

    The headline of this article is “Next stage for economy isn’t recovery, it’s MASS DEFAULT”.

    So why is NOBODY, literally nobody else, on this blogroll, addressing the issue of mass household debt default, and the implications thereof?

    What will happen to the country when the mass defaulting DMcW is predicting starts to shift from a trickle to a flood to a veritable tsunami?

    My view is – this is a very uncomfortable subject for many people.

    So you stay in your comfort zones ranting and raving about Michael Noonan and promissory notes and the Mahon Tribunal and the mechanics of central bank issuance of fiat currencies and all the rest of the predictable sleight-of-hand avoidance tactics, avoiding the heading, which I’ll remind you again says:

    “Next stage [...] mass default”.

  40. C21living

    The following posters on this blogroll, this week, are talking off topic and gingerly sidestepping the subject of DMcW article above.

    The subject for discussion is “Next stage [...] mass default”.

    The posters who are literally avoiding the subject include:

    George R. Baumann
    Red River Six
    Paul Div
    Paul Moriarty
    Tony Brogan

    None of you ever joined a debating society, I take it?

    You debate the subject at hand in a debate, you can’t just rant about this and that or the whole discussion descends into farce.

    Now the country is descending into farce with household charge nonpayment, and as if in sync with the zeitgeist of the nation, the DMcW blogroll is descending into farce as the usual posters avoid the subject, which is…

    …mass default!!

    No, not by the bankers or Michael Noonan or Frank Dunlop or the wigs in the Four Courts. No, not by Max Keiser or Mario Draghi or the man in the f**king moon. By the public, huge swathes of the public.

    100,000 home mortgages deep underwater. How many of these houses have the parents’ house as security? How many parents (I suppose grandparents) houses are on the line too?

    This is a murky subject because nobody in Ireland nor, may I add, on this blogroll, will address the subject and how it may/can/will be resolved.

    This is without doubt the deepest and most profound problem in the country.

    But it I want to talk about it, the DMcW blogroll is not the place to do it, because they talk more sh*te than the Vincent Browne show on cocaine!!

    No wonder DMcW is leaving the country. You’re a f**king disgrace, the lot of you, indulging your rants and raves. You’re not going to turn this country around when you scrupulously avoid the biggest issue of them all.

    • Today is the 7th Day B4 the FULL MOON

      You have been sucked in Big Time

      Go Slow

    • Tony Brogan

      OK C21
      I have no solution to the forclosure and coming defaults. Either people are put out or they arte legislated to stay.
      If the foreclosures happen the property market collapses. Ditto for the US where there are estimated top be millions in default yet to have legal action taken.
      The reposession happens. Now the bank has an asset worth less than the mortgage and so is in trouble as the bank reserves are wiped out and the reserves are less than the law allows and the bank is gone.So banks can’t afford to foreclose and people can’t afford to pay.
      People keep payments current at what ever they can and the banks can pretend they have a performing asset. The mortgage can be valued at par and the reserves are maintained (wink, wink) and the bank though insolvent stays in business.
      People get to stay where they are and pay less than rent.
      Another track may be to see if the mortges were colateralized. If so they were likely sold off to investment funds and those funds may have sliced and diced the mortgages.
      It is an axiom of forclosure that only the holder of the mortgage can forclose. If the mortgage wea collateralized then the bank might just be a collection agent and not the owner of the mortgage so unable to enforce the contract and foreclose.
      It is probably worth checking it out and seeing . It could save millions from ever having to make another payment!!

      • Grey Fox

        I and a small group of friends are on such a path Tony, it information on whether a mortgage has been collateralised or not is nigh on impossible to find, the Banks are stonewalling, Data Protection does not provide the answers, requesting to see original documentation is ignored or copies sent, one recent official request under the Data Protection Act resulted in a file as thick as my arm arriving in the post which contained a copy of every letter the Bank ever sent me and even that was not complete as I have other copies which they did not include in their reply. I already have all these letters! I want to know who they have shared my personal information with! and there was nothing in this file about that!
        The Securitisation Tranche Prospectus’s (prospecti) are visable on the internet but how do we see the actual Mortgage Account Numbers contained in those tranches? Anybody? We need this information first before we can evaluate if there is a case that can be brought! Is there anybody on this forum who knows how to get this information? Is there a Law which I can use to compel the Bank to tell me?
        I have a property which I would be only to happy to use as a test case.
        Anybody? Anybody?

        • Grey Fox

          This is how we force the hand of the Banks by getting off our backsides and doing something about it, compelling them to respond be legal means!
          Take their stick off them and beat the shit out of them with it!

          • Tony Brogan

            I forwarded the comments on by email. see id CL wishes to respond?


          • Tony Brogan

            Hi Grey Fox
            My friend CL was one of your speakes on the video u-tube.!!

            I was thinking of another way to settle a debt problem. If one is dragged in to court for bankruptcy the court system and the lawyers take over.
            The individual loses control and it is expensive and so the debts increase.

            When I had to close down a business I was short of cash to pay all creditors. After liqidation there was a certain amount of cash to spread between creditors

            The first to be paid were the secured creditors who got 100 cents on the dollar. The balance were sent a letter saying what the situation was and that they would receive 65% of what was owed ( the percentage depends on the proportion of cash to debt)in my case.
            About 20 letters went out to all creditors even if it were $10 or $500. All had to agree or else would have to sue for the debt in court with the likelyhood of being paid diminishing daily.
            All agreed except 2 who when talked to personally also agreed.
            All were paid and case over. My accountant handled the details.

            If it is a valid suggestion to anyone I do not know. The sooner the situation is tackled and dealt with the sooner finished. I avoided court costs and a possible bankruptsy. My credit rating was intact and I was immediately in business again as a one man band rather than 20 sales people.

            The message is to get help immediately from goverment agencies and from the private sector and then move to settle your problem ASAP

            Best regards

        • C21living

          Now you’re talking Grey Fox.

          What you’ve written above may help fellow Irish citizens in arrears or in difficulty.

          This is why I was cross in my post above – posters have info they can share and help others in trouble with the bank.

          This discussion can’t happen while we avoid it because it’s unpleasant. We have to face it and discuss it, precisely because it’s unpleasantness is proof that it is THE subject to discuss until solutions, etc can be found.

          • cooldude

            Hi C21. I am guilty as charged in that I do not have solutions for the negative equity mess. I think Tony and Grey Fox are making a lot of sense with their ideas. I do think it is vital that people understand how these horrible asset bubbles are deliberately created and how to protect themselves from this monetary system whose sole purpose is to rob us and turn us into debt slaves. I have spent the last four years looking at this and take full responsibility for all my financial decisions. The next phase of this crisis will be a currency one and all these existing paper currencies will be completely debased. The only protection individuals have is by switching their savings to precious metals which are a proper store of value. I know this advice is of no use to someone under severe financial strain trying to pay a mortgage. I tend to agree that the best thing is to get out of it and start again fresh. David never gives solutions but I think he is coming round to the inevitable conclusion that it is this system of central banking and its ugly twin sister fractional reserve banking that is behind all these problems. And behind these you have the elite banking families who really pull the strings. I think these guys have a good grasp of what is going on

          • C21living


            The fight to change the global banking system, such as Ron Paul’s audit the FED movement in the US, is gaining ground but that is very much the “long game”.

            As I mentioned elsewhere, it could be likened to the goal of checkmating the king of your opponent in chess.

            But long before we make those huge, tectonic changes, there will be a breakdown of the current system.

            The next phase of this is not, respectfully, the currency debasement phase. All the fiat currencies are debasing simultaneously, there will be huge inflation of imports like oil, but the system will go on.

            On the other hand, the 100,000 and growing Irish homes 3 months plus in arrears is not a situation which will “just go on” or be put off for ever. The Irish banks will get flush with cheap ECB credit, then call in all these “assets” to write them down, repossess, etc. as needs be.

            Only then will anyone in the world have any confidence in Irish banks, that they’ve actually diffused the bomb of mortgage default that it is very easy to point out they’re sitting on.

            There is a massive bomb about to go off in Ireland – mortgages that can’t be repaid, won’t be repaid.

            As I said above, talk of the longer term issues, eg. end of fractional reserve banking, is about as useful as a group of socialist workers on Dame St chatting about what they’ll do when the global communist state is finally constructed, as predicted by Marx.

            All that is for another day. DMcW’s article this week is more urgent and frightening – the truly fantastic pending catastrophe for the Irish banks’ balance sheets and, more importantly, young Irish families and their parents who put their home up as security.

            However, the Irish refuse to address this. The prefer the comfort zone of far-off chit chat about the ideal utopianism of changing the global banking system.

        • Tony Brogan

          Grey Fox

          I can not help directly. I suspect we may have a mutual friend you are working with. one CL. If this is correct i will see f in our chats were can think of anything to forward to you.

          I suppose you have a copy of your mortgage document and it may record the number of the duplicate held by the bank.

          If they have not started proceedures against you I am not sure what you can do. But whatever you do do not sign any ammendments with the bank as that may constitute an enforceable agreement.

          If you are prepared to rock the boat , the minute the bank starts an action you can go to court to ask that the bank is the owner of the mortgage which they would have to proove to continue the action.If the mortgage is sold on then the bank has no claim, they effectively were already paid and suffer no damages.

      • C21living

        Perhaps Tony, and perhaps not.

        It is totally inconceivable that the “solution” is that mortgage holders pay some laughable sum per month – say €50, because they argue it’s all they can afford.Like NAMA, that’d create another massive distortion of the market. As you say, banks, certainly Irish banks, can’t push for foreclosure on all 100,000 or so home mortgages 3 months plus in arrears, because the crater which would open up would be almost or perhaps as big as the crater created by the souring of loans to bankers and developers.

        What amazes me is that everyone can see the gigantic losses created by the souring of loans to developers and builders – commercial loans. But not so many people can see the next giant hole in the banks’ balance sheets, namely household mortgage loans, of which a truly impressive number are now 3 months plus in arrears.

        It’s safe to assume more and more mortgages will fall into 3 months arrears during 2012.

        Patrick Honohan has said that the Irish banks, having received cash injects from the ECB recently, which they promptly passed to the government in exchange for bonds, are now above water enough to forclose on buy-to-let mortgages.

        What astonishes me is that Irish people think foreclosure won’t happen, because the government wouldn’t dare let it happen, for example Eamon Gilmore said we’ll keep families in their homes, so that means everyone will pay €50 or whatever a month and the banks will have to suck it up. That can’t happen, it would be a massive delegitimization of the original contracts. It would send the country into moral hazard and pure farce overdrive.

        Consider the household charge for comparison. Some 70% of the public “aren’t paying”. Fine, I can see many reasons for not paying. But they also believe the government can’t or won’t track them down for the money. This is with the Troika as the de facto government of the country – still, huge numbers of people think the government will back down on the household charge.

        In my view, the government CAN’T be cowardly because the Troika has a knife at its back. They have to follow through on the household charge, however unpopular it it. Similarly, they will have to start foreclosing buy-to-let mortgages, as Patrick Honohan suggested.

        The idea that the home mortgages are not a problem because the government wouldn’t dare allow foreclosures, because the public would be very cross, seems to me to be a kind of mass denial psychotic delusion. Of course foreclosures will begin, once the Irish banks have borrowed enough cash from the ECB and “invested” it in the asset class that is Irish gov. bonds.

        When the banks have the cash, they’ll foreclose. How can the process end any other way?

        This is the point of DMcW’s article, and I’m glad at least one fellow poster is doing DMcW the justice he deserves for the work he does for the country by expanding upon his article above, rather than indulging whatever rant and rave and pet issue posters have, which turns this forum into a cross between the Joe Duffy radio show and a hotel switchboard.

        • Tony Brogan

          That is a lot of stuff to digest but we are on the same page. There are millions of mortgages currently unenforceable beacause of lack of proof of ownership of the mortgage. It have be the same here and you say it may not.
          i am distressed at the large number of people in Ireland who lok to the government to bale them out if they have a problem
          Seems to be a version of Cradle to the grave socialism.
          As maggie Thatcher said, the trouble with socialism that sooner or later you run out of other peoples money!

          What is the law in Ireland re forclosure. In Canada when we had a problem years back it was as follows
          THe bank foreclosed and they get the property and that is closure.
          Bank goes for payment of debt by a way of a court ordered sale then, Bank get whatever cash and if there is a shortfall the bank can persue the contract for the balance owing and a person could be in hock for ever.

          • C21living


            Everything is about to change in Ireland when the new personal bankrptcy laws come into force in July of this year.

            Currently, a bankrupt is undischarged for an eye-watering 12 years.
            Also, all personal debt is recourse, meaning the bank chases you for every penny, even after repossessing the car, house, etc.

            From July, bankrupts will be discharged after 3 years. If you are declared bankrupt, obviously your assets are divided amongst your creditors, in order of priority. I think money can be taken off you during the 3 year undischarged period too, although I’m not 100% certain of that. However, after 3 years, you become a discharged bankrupt and your creditors can’t chase you for money, your slate is wiped clean at the Irish Credit Bureau and so on.

            However, Irish people aren’t interested in the new bankruptcy terms, where they lose the house but after 3 years in the sin-bin, they also lose all the debt and can start from a clean slate into a market where you can get a nice house for €150K and falling.

            But no! People think they can keep their houses and just not pay the mortgage of €400 or whatever plus interest. They think they can get away with offering the bank a patronising €50/month and the bank “will have to take it or leave it”.

            In sum, the people of Ireland, elated from the giddy excitement of not paying their household charge, think the next step is to not pay their mortgage and thus beat the banks by mere non-compliance.

            What the public is forgetting is the new bankruptcy laws. The good news is they’ll be free from the banks after 3 years. The bad news is they lose the house.

        • Tony Brogan

          That is pretty clear. The bankruptcy laws in Ireland are somewhat onerous. i am surprised anyone puts themself in a situation where they could be enslaved likr that. I’d be hesitant to borrow any money at all.
          Can you leave the country if bankrupt. It must lead to a black economy. Paid under the table etc.

          Thanks again for the clarity


        • Dear C21 Living

          I am glad you see the urgency of the article. The Americans have an expression – “the extreme urgency of now” – and I believe it to be one of the most important concepts around.

          What I saw down in the courts scared the daylights out of me.



          • C21living

            Thanks David and you’re doing a great job.

            You’ve always been courageous in talking about “the extreme urgency of now”.

            Years ago it was the impending property crash, now it’s the ghastly pile up of home mortgage arrears.

            We need to talk about this now, so everyone gets perspective and realises that by association, we are all in this together.

            The last thing we need is groupthink denial or downplaying of this.

          • Tony Brogan

            Well david it is not just irelan. It is the whole of the EU and US. Therte are huge social ramifications that could grow to violence. Then authoritatian rule, then marshal law. The us gov is prepared with habeus corpus already dead for and accused terrorist. The wear against terror is now the homeland as well. Anyone can be apprehended on suspicion and simply be executed or tortured or dumped. It is the law since last christmas.
            The president has the authority to have any person assasinated any where in the world , it is the law.

            i do not talk lightly of lost liberty. It iaharder to combat in a large country but Ron Paul is trying.

            Here, Ireland has a unique opportunity as it is asmall country and enough can be persuaded to make a difference.
            You have influence and media connections so if you promoted a plan you could make a difference.
            you would have to put aside personal preferences to act for the common good.

            so what are your ideas David, where do you stand on fiay currency v. commodity money. do you think it important. Nobody knows, you don’t say.

            What is the solution for the delinquent mortgage payers in negative equity. What is your solution. Nobody knows, you don’t say.

            You write well, speak well, and have a quick mind, Have you no opinions of your own. do you have onlt warnings and astute observations.

            We know all the problems but you get paid, we give you ideas for nothing. Are you using us, milking us for your personal benefit. I do not think you intend that but where are the solutions.

            The only one I can see ia a funemental one of closinf the fialt system and the money system. It is the root cause of all the problems. cut the cancer at the root.
            what do you say to that David.

            You scare the daylights out of me. Not the courtroom. A bright articulate, educated individual with no answers!!!

            with respect, this is your blog and thank you for that.


    • Tony Brogan

      We are talking about debt here.
      Why is everyone in debt.
      The system sucked them in and they fell for it.
      Cheap money, lots of it at low interest.
      Where did it come from.
      The ECU
      Where did they get it
      They cunjured it out of fresh air as adebt and pumped the money supply big time.
      It created inflation (the devaluation of your puchasing power of your money.)
      Who benefits from inflation.
      THe first recipients of the new money which they spend at par.
      Who is harmed from inflation The last to receive any extra money or those that receive none.
      Who are the first recipients– well the banks who created it of c ourse.
      The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

      You can’t protect anyone until the system is changed.
      It is corrupt.
      I repeat again and again. It is designed to pauperize the people ETC ETC ETC ETC

      most doctors treat the symptoms, few look for the underlying cause. I am looking for the underlying causes then the disease can be treated and people made whole again.

      Bank central banking it is the f……g problem
      Ban fractionreserve banking it is another f….. g problem
      Ban fiat paper money. yea I’ve already said that
      Use commodity money and this fecking problem will never ever exist again.

      This is an indebted peoples ignorance problem.

      Read Detlev Schlichter “Paper Money Collapse”.
      Cooldude told me to read it and he is one cool dude so I did. It is brilliant and easy to read.

      It should be a study for every kid in the universe.

      I do not mind being criticised but the first rule odf a debate as you put it is to stick to the subject with ad hominem attacks.

      So what is the solution proposed by the author of this blog. I may have heard him suggest that the debt on households should be wiped out so everyone gets a free house, or am I in error.

      Thanks for your comments

      • C21living


        Let’s be clear about something first. The entire population of the Western world is going through a kind of online university course at the moment, trying to understand how the financial crisis of 2008-2012 and beyond occured, who was responsible, how can we fix the system and so on.

        It’s a 3 or 4 years “course” and it’s about as difficult and technical as a university degree, but many people have the smarts for it, to fully grasp it in all its aspects.

        So you have Paul Grignon’s excellent You Tube documentaries “Money and Debt” and “Money as Debt 2″. You have Bill Still’s fantastic “The Money Masters” about the foundation of the privately owned FED, fiat currencies, fractional reserve requirements, and the scandal that is banking. You have the unsurpassable G Edward Griffin who wrote the foundational text in this field of research, “The Creature from Jekyll Island” about the formation of the FED. You have Max Keiser, Micheal Hudson, the ZeroHedge blog and lots of others exposing the truth about how the system is corrupt and phoney from the beginning.

        You have debates about return to a gold standard and so on. These are like advanced debates by final year students of the financial crisis.

        However, and it’s a big however, before we have a revolutionary overthrow of the entire global financial crisis, we have relatively mini-crisises coming down the line at us this year, 2012.

        Absolutely No1 on these tidal waves before the final tsunami is the epic drama of 100,000 and growing by the day (!!) homes in 3 months plus arrears.

        If changing the system could be likened to a game of chess, the end of fractional reserve banking and usury, as Wills always points out, is the “endgame”. That is check-mate, taking the king so to speak.

        But playing chess proceeds with one move at a time, and each move must be well-considered in all its consequences. You can play chess knowing that the endgame is to take or check the King, but actually making smart moves to get from here to there, knowing your competitor is also going to make smart moves to similarly beat you, is an entirely more difficult matter.

        It seems to that lots of people are having a eureka! moment where they realise the object of the game is to take the king…

        …but we need to make smart moves from here to there or we lose.

        So, this is why the subject of what to do about the mortgage default question is more important than ending fractional reserve banking. We know the latter is the endgame, but what’s our next move, facing 100,000+ homes in arrears?

        What’s a smart move NOW? It seems to me the public thinks the banks won’t foreclose of homes (to extend my analogy, the banks won’t dare “take our knight”). Why wouldn’t they dare? They are playing the same game as us and their endgame is to take our King.

        That is their endgame. They intend to shut us down. They are experienced players, the public is very much behind the curve for the moment, I’m afraid to say. Delusional fantasies like “they wouldn’t dare repossess us all” is about as pathetic a move as not paying the household charge and thinking “they can’t collect money from us all”.

        Of course they collect the household charge!! But at least the non-payment to date has sharpened the public mind into a clear understanding that this is chess, it’s the banks versus the public, and our government is playing for the banks.

        • Tony Brogan

          Thanks for your clarity C21
          I forget i have been reading for 10 years and it took me nine to get a clear idea of the problem. It is like a PHD in finance and economics. however it is narrow in focus as there is so much information that must be ignored.

          in 1981 I had three peices of realestate. I put an offer on another with the intention of selling a couple of the properties and having a clear title home.
          Instead the RE market came to a screaming halt within 10 days after my closing and I could not sell the other property as I was involved with a legal problem, resolved but mot signed.
          In the four months to settle the signiture The property market tanked by 35% and my equity vanished and I sold the properties anyway.. I was left with a recession, 23% interest rates and a 200,000 mortgage. I had 3 young children under the age of 3 and out of pocket expenses of 5,000 a month, and a business loss of 5000 a month.
          I lasted 2 years in the house and finanally sold the house losing the equity and paid off the mortgage. The business was finally sold off for peanuts. I had assets and cash flow but my net worth was negative 20,000. In three years or less I went from retirement to broke. aged 38-40 and aged 10 years in looks.
          Best advice is to liquidate early, cut your losses, get expenses under control and look for new opportunity.
          Although the real estate market was a fraction of what it had been in activity I was always able to make a living myself in sales even if those on my staff could not.
          I retrenched, stayed a one man band and earned a living in a lousy market.I made good money the next few years.
          I only tell this to show I have been there and have some experience of a collapsed RE market.

          The difference today is that the interest rates moved the other way as the economy is so debt burdened it can not recover or handle higher rates.

          I am working on the principal of one person at a time. Just educate one person. It is all I can do.

          All I can say to people is if you are broke, acknowledge it. Get debt councelling and know your options. Then make the best move for you. The first to get out will be the first to recover. Hanging on to a house with a mortgage is an albatross around your neck. you may be able to rent the house back from the bank and although you do not own you regain your freedom. You can take the opportunity to move if you get it.

          As far as the government is concerned. One does not know the threats or promises made on a personal basis. tony Blair was reported as being hired byJP Morgan as an advisoor at 1 million dollars a year.

          Presidents of the US have been shot while atternpting to close the central bank system. The move must come from the people. Ireland if roused could do it . there is the referendum. The US is armed. It could get ugly there.

          It is a desperate time. Not insurmountable.

    • Juanjo R

      Theres a big post above by me to reply to you check it out.

      • C21living

        Full marks for being on topic above Juanjo R.

        If we can’t stay on topic, we can forget any and all social discussion in Ireland having any positive effect.

        An online debate is like hot air – trapped in a balloon it can lift us to heights, just diffuse about this and that and it’s a kind of joke, a farce, pathetic, with the atmosphere of a free class in secondary school. In short, a waste of time.

    • redriversix

      What happens now C21living are formal charges brought,? do we receive a summons in the post ?

      are you aware of what any of those posters you mention have gone through ?

      Mass default is old news,just a question of when not if.The “game” moves on quite quickly……… chill the fuck out and enjoy your evening.!!

      RR6 [guilty]

      • C21living


        What’s the subject of the article above, buddy?

        Or do you just rant and rave about whatever you want, and contribute to the laughable farce that Ireland is turning into?

        In other words, are you a discipled debater or an undisciplined ranter and raver?

        The subject of this blogroll is “Next stage […} mass default”.

        It’s hardly old news when the defaults haven’t even begun!

        • redriversix


          I know all about mass default and should see me when I do rant.

          Everything people are afraid happened to me I do not need to debate it,I and my family are living it and I as many here know will help anyone who needs it.
          I am a practical person,not a armchair warrior

          But I amd my family survived and we are getting by ,one day at a time….so next time you want to judge,ask what experience anyone has………..

          • C21living

            I’m not judging anyone negatively at all here, least of all anyone who suffered or is suffering from the property and/or employment crashes.

            If you have a closer look, you’ll see that my issue is with the avoidance of this subject, with talking around this subject, or overlooking this subject entirely as simply too painful and disheartening.

            I have the exact opposite view – we desperately need to talk about it openly as a society, as a community.

            We have made a total mess of our country by not talking about unpleasant matters when it mattered – we didn’t or couldn’t or wouldn’t talk about clerical sexual abuse of children while it was happening, we didn’t politically punish TD and local councillor scoundrels when they were accepting bribes from developers.

            This is a dereliction of duty by us as a society.

            We can’t make the same mistake in 2012, when a ghastly 100,000 couples or so will be facing marital difficulties due to mortgage arrears and threats of foreclosure.

            We have to let these people know they’re not alone, we as a society are in this together.

            But first, first we have to talk openly about it, not put it off.

    • coldblow

      Why is my name not on this list?

      We have discussed debt default and bankruptcy laws at length over the years.

      The bulk of David’s article is about the courts and how the wealthy or once-wealthy get a better deal than the rest of us.

      Some of the comments may be interpreted as rants but I don’t personally and learn a lot from some of them.

      On you can follow closely argued debates about EU regulations, financial mechanics and so on. These are, in my opinion, not ultimately very illuminating whereas the ‘fringe’ seems to offer more insight. Similarly the ‘impressionistic’ material here is a source of insight.

      • coldblow

        One of our ex-posters (Colm) is now very active on that site and he is very focussed on the issues in hand. I learnt far more from him when he was a regular here (he is an enthusiastic supporter of our enlightened intellectual state which we have attained after decades of evolution), particularly in terms of psychology. (He’d probably say the same about myself, in fairness.)

  41. Grey Fox

    You know when I listen to Micky Noonan and his bullshit responses and dirty tricks it makes me want to puke!
    Noonan, stop pissing about, why don’t you issue a bond for a fucking trillion and get it over with, you will always find some plonker in the financial world to buy it, especially when it is Guaranteed by the People of Ireland, we can have one hell of a party for the next thirteen years and then we will roll it over and issue another one, its all codology anyway, its all fiction, so stop trying to portray what a good job you are doing YOU ARE NOT DOING A GOOD JOB!
    You are selling Ireland to the highest bidder and you will be remembered in history for exactly that. You say the last shower were bad, I don’t condone them but at least they were feckin about with small beer, you are now gambling in the premier league and we cannot afford the stakes! So just go for broke and get it over with!

    • Grey Fox

      Apologies for the rant, but I am mad as hell!
      I have to go to the credit union today to see if they will loan me a couple of hundred euro’s to have an educational assessment done on my little son because he is have some learning difficulties, they may or may not give it to me. This assessment has to be done otherwise he will not qualify for assistance in school.
      This is reality, not fucking bankers gambling debts!

      • Tony Brogan

        I’ll send you $300 if you are short.
        You can repay me with a couple of meals and a place to lay my head if I cycle by your neighbourhood in a few months time!!

      • Grey Fox

        How much do you need?


        • Grey Fox

          Thank you for asking, I am ok, I have been to Credit Union this morning and all is ok, the timing was wrong earlier today and I was really, mad as hell!
          But I have calmed down and things are in perspective again, I am fighting battles on many fronts and refuse to roll over and accept at 50 years of age that my life’s work is resulting in nothing, so I will fight to the bitter end, I have my family and my health and these are things the Government and the Banks cannot take, I have raised 3 well adjusted children who are yong adults now and I have one still in primary school,he is the kindest, most social small human being I ever had the pleasure of meeting and he is my son, he has some difficulties but we will overcome them the same as I have some difficulties financially and I will overcome them.
          You are very kind and wise beyond your years and we owe a debt of gratitude to you and some others for your work. Thanks also to Tony. I am humbled by your comments.

          • Peter Atkinson

            Good man Grey Fox.Don’t let them grind you down.All they want is for you to drop your guard, loose your cool and then they categorize you as as a crank.

            Same age here, slightly different circumstances but all boiling down to the same thing.A good shafting given to all.

            You have nailed it with the Credit Union.There has been so much chat about starting again viz a vis the banking system.Those who remember the 70s and 80s know what a recovery is like and it is those very people whoare aware we are light years away from the conditions to achieve this.

            In the late 70s 80s we used to walk past the GPO and up Henry Street listening to the relentless megaphone cries of so called Socialists.These very people I speak of were in the main “art school” punk clad college boys and girls who you will now find filling the elite halls of our legal and medical establishments.

            This is not about being a socialist or a capitalist.Its about being a humanist.Its not about if you are an entrepeneur or you work for one.This is a team game.Thats the focus that is being lost here and while there is a battle to be fought and won its being fought on the wrong front with the wrongly identified enemy.

            Is it a crime to want to improve your’s and your family’s living standard.No. The crime is doing at the expense of someone else’s.Thats what happened here and thats what we need to repair now.

          • Dorothy Jones

            I wish you the best, best D, courageous post

          • redriversix

            Hey grey fox

            excellent posts and I wish you,your son and the rest of your family well.

            Keep the faith,I know how difficult it is…….you ever need a chat or a me at

            Have a great day


  42. gizzy

    The system is so broken no one knows what to do. There is no grand plan. The government do not know what to do so they try and preserve the status quo as their best option and will spin that whatever way they want. The trade unions have being bought off by benchmarking and croke park so they too will fight for status quo so will the public servants they represent. Those in arrears on their mortgage including me will hold on as long as they can to their family home because what is the alternative so without setting out to do so we preserve the staus quo.

    People will almost always try to preserve the status quo or at best tolerate incremental change. But incremental change wont fix this mess.

    We need debt forgiveness at all levels, if membership of the euro stops that then we need to get out.

    Bring back the punt, at a level that allows us compete.

    We then need to st up new banks where we house depostors funds.

    Ring fence and close down legacy banks.

    Replace the legal system in this country.

    Appoint change managers into from outside the public service with a mandate to radically change. If the trade unions block change pass laws to prevent them.

    Scrap county council and town councils. Set up four provincial councils in its place with only very few councillors on each.

    Appoint entepeneurs and pay them well to a new dept of enterprise to look at growth opportunities. Those opportunities need to be matched by education initiatives so for instance let teach computers studies and languages to 5 year olds.

    We need to put a 100% vat rate on junk food.

    Make alcohol illegal under 21.

    etc etc

    All this will need a new political movement because the current goverment are men in their sixties whose only aim is to see out their term in office and preserve the staus quo.

    • C21living

      The alternative is, under the new bankruptcy terms starting in July of this year, you declare yourself bankrupt, let your creditors divide up your assets, and after 3 years as an undischarged bankrupt you will be discharged, and no creditor will have any claim on your assets, not a single penny.

      You can then save up for the deposit for a house, in a market where €150K will get you a nice 3-bed. You could pay less, if you negotiate. By 2015-16, you might only need €100K.

      Why wouldn’t you do that rather than keep your current house, and current (I suppose) huge mortgage debt?

      • Tony Brogan

        Right on C21
        Exactly correct. Get out of debt asap. Get freedom of decision making and the ability to move.
        Get debt coucelling asap.
        Then look for new opportunity

  43. gizzy

    That’s if it is three years and not three plus five as hinted so the banks can get any windfall income you get in that period.

  44. C21living


    Let’s suppose it’s only 3 years. Would you consider it? It’s only 36 months and you’ll be debt free. It’s true the banks may not want to play ball, but they will probably be forced to.

    • gizzy

      Would definitely consider it, can’t see other way out have looked at uk option but do not in my heart want to move there. have already emigrated once in this lifetime

  45. If I had money and was looking to invest in Ireland, I would wait until the country had very decisively defaulted. Only after that point is the investment viable.

    • C21living


      In other words, you’d wait until the last bubble, the bubble of denial about the unpayability of home and buy-to-let mortgages contracted since 2000, burst.

      You won’t have long to wait now Paul. I’d guestimate final default at all levels will begin late 2012 and continue for 2 years.

      Expect new money to enter Ireland from 2014 or 15 onwards.

      • Harper66

        Hi C21living.
        Interesting posts. There can be no doubt that the past four years have been about rebuilding the defences of those David would class as the “insiders”.

        I say there can be no doubt because Brian Lenihan himself spoke about returning the “pillar banks to greatness”.

        I also have no doubt that once the banks are in a strong enough position they will be ruthless. I see part of this promissory note fiasco sees the shifting the tracker mortgages off the banks books. This will pave the way for pretty hefty treatment of those left holding variable or fixed mortgages.

        I know of a firm shut down by bank over a (comparatively) small amount of money. The bank in question is not Irish. This is only the start of it.

        On the point of the household charge. I am not paying it. I am fully aware they will come looking for it but I am not paying it. I spend a fair amount of time in England and when I see what people pay to their councils and get in return I realise we are being screwed here. However I also think there are hundreds of thousands of people who are afraid of being chased for it and still they are not paying and the reason they are not paying is that they do not have it.

        This is it. We have reached the bottom. They have gone back to same well too many times and it has run dry. How many more “austerity” budgets are they planning on attempting to pass?

        There will be trouble ahead.

        • C21living


          The “trouble ahead’ is dead ahead! :) In fact, I can practically hear the screeching sound as our wonderful Olympic class liner is opened like a sardine can by a gigantic iceberg in the North Atlantic.

          The household charge fiasco is the beginning of the end game. Clearly, the public realise we can’t bail out the Irish banks – we don’t have the money. When the government came to power 12 months ago we thought “maybe” now it’s overwhelmingly “no”. So it’ll be no to the household charge, and I’ll put money on no to the fiscal compact.

          But there will be consequences for us here. They banker-politician matrix will not just go down without a fight, otherwise the Spanish and Italians would simply copy us and the whole matrix of control would fall apart like papier maché. The banks have to try to retain control – it’s the nature of the beast – so they’ll come after the household charge and try to frighten us into voting YES.

          But they’ve already lost. In a way I’m prouder to be Irish than I have been in years, in another sense it’s ominous because the dark designs of the financial oligarchy against the Irish public are gathering on the horizon like the distant dust-clouds of Genghis Khan’s 50,000 strong Mongol archer cavalry.

          Trouble on the horizon.

          • Harper66

            “So it’ll be no to the household charge, and I’ll put money on no to the fiscal compact.”


          • Harper66

            “FRANKFURT–The central bank of Germany will no longer accept bank bonds backed by Ireland, Greece and Portugal as collateral, becoming the first euro-zone central bank to exercise a new privilege to protect its balance sheet from the region’s debt crisis”


            Now that we’re sucked dry it looks like germany wants to jettison the dead weight.

            The European Union – its like one big happy family….

  46. Grey Fox

    David, just watched your Punk Economics 3, excellent as usual, very watchable, and Greece is a perfect example of Borrowing Principle in order to repay Principle + Interest a never ending spiral, but I ask you is it terminal?

  47. wills

    T Brogan,

    Check my comment regarding your son’s illness.

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