December 7, 2011

Budget a mere sideshow to Merkozy's grand plan

Posted in Irish Independent · 267 comments ·
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In the past 24 hours, three dramatic developments have taken place, each of which will have a profound effect on your life in the next few years. Although all three are related, it is not quite clear which one will be most significant.

First, of course, is our own Budget. It has been well flagged, much leaked and seems to be more of a holding exercise than a decisive move one way or another. Many will argue that there is little point in talking about “austerity” while sticking broadly to a plan which sees state spending running at €57bn while State revenue is €20bn less than that.

Others will point out that if the State doesn’t fill the gap by spending then nobody else will. The fact is that people are not spending, which means that the economy would contract even more if the State cuts too quickly.

This argument will rage, but it can’t be seen in isolation because the legitimacy of the ”cut now or cut later” discussion is linked to what is going on in Europe. If the Europeans fail to save the euro, then what — you might ask — is the point of us being good boys in the eyes of the EU elite? If you believe that the euro will not survive the next few months, then it would be sensible for Ireland to put in train plans to default and devalue, sizzling foreign creditors and starting again. This would mean cultivating a much closer relationship with the IMF because, after all, this is what the IMF does and has done over and over again in the past: it manages these big moments.

So our Budget has to be seen against the background of the second development this week.

The second development and one that may affect you more than any decisions from Merrion Street is the deal hammered out to save the euro by France and Germany on Monday. Germany is the main player here and it is interesting to note the divergence between Ms Merkel’s language and her actions.

Last week, she said Germany would do whatever it takes to save the euro; yet she is doing precisely the opposite. In fact, everything Germany has done up to now, makes saving the euro harder, not easier.

Monday’s Franco-German pact is likely to be the basis for the EU Summit on Friday.

It envisages a “golden rule” inserted into each country’s constitution, which prevents a country from running a budget deficit of more than 3pc, irrespective of the economic cycle.

Such thinking reveals a spectacular misunderstanding about how the economy actually works, how business cycles develop and how recessions affect everything from the money supply to the level of tax generated. Such a fiscal straitjacket guarantees more trouble ahead for the currency.

The second major feature of the Franco-German deal is that no investors will lose any money in the European government bond market ever again.

This is an extraordinary move because it means that the iron rule of capitalism has been turned on its head — but only for investors. It is now a case of “heads you win, tails I lose” and obviously the bill for subsidising investors will have to be paid by taxpayers. This will happen because recessions do happen.

And if in the course of this recession, European states can’t borrow to fill the void left when the people stop spending, then there will be more defaults. If the people are supposed to accept cuts in their services and accept the bill for wayward investors, where is the incentive for the market to lend prudently in good times?

But quite apart from the dodgy economics, it looks likely that the French/German deal demands treaty change in Ireland and therefore a referendum.

A referendum on closer European integration with the promise of more prosperity may stand half a chance of getting passed; but a referendum on closer European integration in order that you pay the gambling debts of professional investors hasn’t a hope. This referendum is likely to fail and where will we be then?

The third significant development is the move by S&P to downgrade the debt of six countries at the core of Europe. This is a huge deal, not because the rating agencies have much credibility since their shameful involvement in the subprime disaster but because, maybe as a result of that experience, they are alert to the fact now that there is too much debt in the world and this debt will not be paid in full.

When you take a bit of altitude, you see that the EU is moving to save the banks in Europe and is putting the interests of the eurozone’s banks over and above the interest of the citizens. This has been the policy all along and it has failed.

Unless there are large debt writeoffs which are paid for by the creditors of banks, the whole of Europe will end up like Ireland with a zombie banking system which needs to be recapitalised over and over again.

Rather than accept this financial truism, the EU leaders are talking of more and more austerity. But the austerity is not unrelated to the “rigor mortis” in the banks and this is where the three moves in the past day or two converge in a dangerous, self-reinforcing dynamic.

Without bank lending, credit dries up and with less and less credit there is less and less money around, so there is less and less tax revenue, which means more and more austerity.

As growth falls in Europe, what is happening in Ireland will be repeated — not just in the peripheral countries, but in the core countries too. This is what the rating agencies are worried about. So you can see the direct connection between what is happening in the head office in New York of Standard & Poor’s, what is happening in Berlin and Paris and what is happening today all over Ireland as we mull over the Budget.

All eyes are now on Friday and the summit. Germany is clear that it wants a Europe that is more German and this means treaty change. Countries that don’t like it can lump it. The German position now with the “golden rule” has become more rigid than ever.

This is not about to change. One thing is sure — if we are hoping that being the best boys in the class is going to get us anywhere, it is not. We are now part of a German Europe with strict rules applying to all aspects of the economy. That’s what the referendum will be about.

And if there is one thing we know, we should never sign treaties with Germany in the hope that Germany is going to become more flexible.


  1. redriversix

    Unless there is widespread non-payment of all banking and social debt their will never be a solution to this crisis.

    Over 45 million euro paid to unsecured BOI bondholder’s on Monday last and yet the most vulnerable people in society are attacked in the Budget.

    The apathy among people I meet is quite staggering.

    I better start brushing up on my German and french as nothing I see is going to stop this financial Army marching across Europe…….

    • Romario

      The Germans have tried twice, to take over the world by force, now they are attempting a slow strangulation financially…, it looks like it could be third time lucky.

      When you have muinteoir’s and Serial Parish Committeeee’ members from Killinaskully in Dail Eireann, and over paid, Civil servants (jobs for life people) “fighting” our corner, what do we expect?
      One of the down sides of democracy I might add.
      Ray Burke, Michael Lowry,Beverley Cooper Flynn,Charlie Haughey, Bertie, McCreevy to name but a few……….

      Michael Collins signed his own Death warrant in December 1921, Brian Lenihan, with no assistance from the cowering Cowen, signed the Nations Death Warrant in September 2008, by giving a blanket guarantee to unsecured Bond Holders.

      Whether its apathy or fire in our bellies, Power and Money will make the decisions and the human cost will be of little consequence to Merkel and Co.

      Sadly, I fear common decency, fairness and care for our fellow man, is dying, and its all for a share price, a cut, a margin….and to hell with the consequences.

  2. To whom it may concern;
    Given the nature of this crisis what specific actions would/should a visionary Irish Government take?
    What takes us out of this maze? What causes the least damage?

    • Stiofan

      I propose that Ireland leave the EU without delay. A realistic example is that of Norway, which survives quite well as a ‘friend’ of the EU, rather than as a member. The model can suit Ireland very well in fact and I commend it to you. Assuming we can be friends with totalitarians. Norway has a national currency. It trades readily with the EU and has Shengen borders. It makes its own decisions and enacts its own laws. It has heard of Brussels and Berlin, but prefers Bergen. A visionary Irish government would now position as a friend of the EU, a special neighbour, trusted, respected, and separate. If Mr Van Rompuy succeeds in alarming / cajoling / bullying / conning / perverting the European summit tomorrow to empower EU leaders to replace treaties without having to ask us, consult us, acknowledge us or in any way represent us, the alternative is totalitarianism. A visionary Irish Government is not required; simple patriotism and a taste for democracy will suffice.

      • bonbon

        Sounds good, but I remember Iceland, not EU, but still hit. I think Iceland still wants to enter the EU in 2013, with a 12-Dec-2011 meeting. Imagine what they think is going on.
        Who in his right mind would want to join this madness? Croatia also wants to in 2013.

        Quick, where is the psychiatrist… Oops the doors are locked, no one can get out. New patients are accepted.

        Seriously, what do you mean by damage? Damage to the banks or humanitarian?

      • bonbon

        Sorry, I cleared up the reply…

    • bonbon

      What do you mean by damage? Damage to the banks or humanitarian?

      I posted here about the Treaty of Westphalia, this is what Europe is all about.

      This is the way to go – please see below.

    • Visionary?

      If you want to see visions Paul go to Knock Airport

      We don’t have visionaries in this country. The powers that be do not have an original thought their heads and they always bow to power

      Most of these people come from a time when John Charles McQuaid had them on their knees quaking and kissing the papal ring. They are morally and intellectually incapable

  3. BiggyWiggy Rogers

    David,I’m not convinced there’s going to be any referendum – there seems to be an attempt to sidestep that requirement, as per this article in the Independent http://www.independent.ie/business/european/debt-crisis-full-treaty-change-may-not-be-necessary-ndash-van-rompuy-2957206.html We just don’t need to bother having a referendum, according to Van Rumpy, because it’s only minor changes. If they succeed in this idea, I believe democracy will be well and truly dead in Europe.

    The other possibility that crosses my mind is that Germany now actually does want the whole sorry affair to collapse, so it can escape us all!

  4. endisnigh

    If you havent read it, suggest reading Debt:the first 5000 years. Nothing new under the sun.

  5. Adam Byrne

    subscribe.

  6. midnightrider

    As redriversix says the apathy is indeed amazing. We keep being told that we have to bear the pain caused by the elite while the elite continue to disenfranchise and impoverish us – with no reaction from us. Some kind of serious reform is required – with the people instigating change. A revolution is required.

    • transitionman

      Charles Hugh Smith agrees with you (as I do) http://www.oftwominds.com/blogdec11/euro-debt-serfdom12-11.html
      What you going to do about It?

      • roc

        Who are the serfs? Us? Or the Germans who have been steadily building our cars, kitchens, and saving hard, having their savings used to invest in our infrastructure and businesses, and so on. According to this forum, they should not be paid.

        Now, it’s another matter when you ‘follow the money’ and see how it ‘vanished’ in an orgy of rent-seeking’, profiteering, and greed.

        But we would need to look to our own house to see this. Of course, the ‘peasants’ on this forum and in the country would prefer to doff the cap, so they look away off overseas.

    • Eireannach

      @Midnightrider

      It’s not apathy it’s pussy-footing and hand-wringing (in other words, cowardice).

      We are afraid to pay the bank bondholders’ debt. It will ruin us.

      We are equally afraid of what may happen it we don’t pay the bonderholders’ debts.

      We therefore dither, pussy-foot and hand-wring. And Shrug and watch Ryan Tubridy’s Late Late Toy Show in record numbers (the 2011 show had the biggest viewership since the world cup 1994).

  7. CorkPlasticPaddy

    Agree with you completely!! Merkel and Sarkozy should be told in no uncertain terms where to go!!. Who do they think they are thinking that they steamroll their ideas through EU without any recourse to the people of Europe!! They among others have made a complete and utter laoirohdi(excuse my Irish spelling) of things and now they’re talking about wanting to bring in a completely new style of treaty that suits their ideas!!! I’ll tell you one thing if the government give the people a chance to vote in a referendum on this it will be totally and utterly rejected. They’ve made a complete and utter balls of the Euro project right from the outset and the sooner they’re told to FOXTROT OSCAR the better!!!!

    • Eireannach

      Merkel and Sarkozy should be told where to go?

      France and Germany created the EEC which we joined. It’s we who’ll be told where to go if we don’t sign up to their deal. Obviously!

  8. But quite apart from the dodgy economics, it looks likely that the French/German deal demands treaty change in Ireland and therefore a referendum.

    No!

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:12008M/PRO/12:EN:NOT

  9. John Q. Public

    It’s official: Ireland is now a debt servicing agency. Many financial institutions across Europe are only too glad to see the Irish public being squeezed because it increases the likelihood of a return on their investment. We are in effect their investment. Our ass is in a sling. Our banks are financial black holes through which all our future potential is being sucked to another dimension.

  10. Dorothy Jones

    - German French approach equivlent to messing around with a zoom lens when a wide angle is needed
    -Treaty change [March earliest]: Events will overtake that one quickly.
    -Rating agencies just marked a card; this has been around for a while,German and French Banks may be slaughtered, the tinge of blood in the water will have the sharks in soon enough.

    I agree with David, never sign this treaty; rod for whipping one’s back if you are IE

    - It might not be so important to look at politics now; look what is going on behind the scenes at Geman and French and Swiss Banks and the Bundesbank, ECB
    - Won’t send anyone to sleep with it now…but

    This solution will come from without. Political decisions will have a limited impact on pending events.

    Expect a mighty struggle.

    Politic will lose this one…….because it has to.

    Fortsetzung folgt

    • Johno

      We can only hope they lose this one Dorothy. I wouldnt be so sure. It might take 2 or 3 goes but they will put fear into enough people for it to pass in the end. Mr Kennys address to the nation was laying the foundations of it. They will play with peoples fears and their anger at the properity crash / recession to try get it passed. I hope people have seen the light but who knows

      • Dorothy Jones

        Angela Merkel DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER

        Achleitner
        Weber
        Waidmann
        Ackermann
        Asmunssen

        DO

        - Bundesbank President Waidmann is against the Eurobond idea; Schaueble wanted his deputy Asmunssen to be allied to him; both Asmunssen and Waidmann studied together at University under Axel Weber, who…..is…. opposed to the idea of Eurobonds.

        -Same Axel Weber as advisor to UBS and his admirer Josef Ackermann at Deutsche will make sure their interests are protected.

        - New guy for the helm at Deutsche is Achleitner, former head of DD Goldmann Sachs

      • Dorothy Jones

        ..I trust the sharks on this one….never felt fond of rating agencies until now…….time the blood source comes from the ‘Speckguertel’ and not the serfs….

  11. molly66

    Look what we have let run the country kenny the power madman,who’s head grows bigger by the day .
    Kenny reminds me of a pet dog and Germany is his master sit enda give the paw enda now smile enda now be a good by and scratch mertils back now fetch and save the banks and if you are a good by we will let you ride the Irish people and while they suffer you can collect your big fat wages plus your expences and dont forget you dry-cleaning.
    Don’t forget to look in the mirror enda and look after your palls.

    • Eireannach

      It’s crunch time for Ireland.

      Will we pass this treaty? Are we in or out of the Franco-German euro project?

      Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don’t!

      If we reject it, we’d be more free. But we’d have a mega-crisis and we are totally and utterly CRAP in a crisis. We hate crises. So I think we’ll vote with our fear, just as we did with Lisbon II. The Irish are easy to frighten, because they are the most pathetic sight in a crisis, it’s embarassing to watch.

      We will pass this treaty in Ireland because like Father Ted and Doogle, we have absolutely no plan B. Obviously!

  12. Champs Elysees

    The Arc de Triumph at a famous point of convergence signifies the laurels from previous success of Napoleon when he implemented the ‘rigor-mortis’ of his own banks as he enforced the punishment of austerity on his conquests in a foreign land .

    How much taller is Napoleon over Sarkozy .

    Its back to dancing at the crossroads we return as we allow the Financial Center sink in a Black hole .

  13. Make no mistake, there will be no referendum!

    Make no mistake, the pseudo concern waffle coming from Kenny is nothing but false flag propaganda, he already agreed with his EPP friends to Protocol 12.

  14. midnightrider

    As usual Georg is bang on. There won’t be any referendum. Fait accompli like everything else. @ Transitionman : I wish I had a good answer all I can do at the moment is try to make others more aware of the state we’re in and hope that with collective awareness will come collective action.

    • 33square

      unfortunately things are moving too slow. they’re boiling the frog so to speak. i’ve seen “euro crisis” on the bottom of sky news so many days now it’s burnt into my retina. docile are the masses ’cause xfactor is so brilliant and facebook is so very good for the ego.

    • midnightrider

      For clarity: those on this board are already well aware what is going on, it’s others I hope will wake up…

  15. straboe1

    It is accepted that Irish financial institutions were poorly regulated up to 2007 resulting in irresponsible lending of cheap money to individuals and developers in a property madness which had to end in a burst bubble. This cheap money ended up in many other countries throughout the Euro zone as well.
    Nobody that I know of has suggested that there was poor regulation of the German financial institutions during the same period. Yet if our financial institutions were making bad decisions, then logically a similar charge can be made against the German ones who lent the money to ours, after all the information as to where the money was ultimately ending up was well known. The regulators of the German Financial institutions had to know what was going on, and yet did nothing about it. This makes one wonder what they were at. It is my conclusion that the intention of the Germans was to get the other countries into so much debt that they would have to agree a new EU treaty creating a fiscal union, another step on the way to a federal Europe, with Germany in control.
    If we were to agree to the acceptance of a new treaty on condition that we are forgiven some of debt, then Germany will have achieved what it set out to do, we will have fallen into their trap. Our financial independence is worth more than that.

    • CitizenWhy

      Yes, German banks, with the collaboration of the German government, poured reckless loans into the smaller economies of the EU. Now they want to blame the unsophisticated bankers of those small economies and their naive governments for the mess.

      The official right wing propaganda line is that Germany can do no wrong. The scam artists of Germany are winning the day and their dumb rubes still do not know what happened to them.

    • Eireannach

      @Straboe1

      Yes, yes, but we took the money! We spent it and enjoyed it and even boasted about it! Whilst laughing that we were getting EU structural funds and CAP grants on top of our money-for-nothing “boom”.

      We are a busted flush. We lose. Germany rule is better than FF gombeen rule, for me at least. Germans are reasonable and above board, if a little infelxible due to the old Prussian system of schooling. But as for our native gombeens…words fail me.

      • straboe1

        I did not get or spend any of that money. The Germans will make decisions in the interest of Germany, not in the interest of Ireland, or any other country, we will be in a similar situation we were under the British. If we come under German control the Irish people will live to regret it.

        • Eireannach

          But straboe1, can we go it alone?

          As I say, it would resemble Dad’s Army, but in an actually war situation.

          You wouldn’t know whether to laugh or cry.

          “The Irish people would regret” being under German control. I’d modify that, I’d say “they’ll whinge about it over pints on bar stools”.

          But they’d rather do that than go it alone…as you will see in the coming months.

        • wildata

          The sad fact is if we are under “Irish Rule” for much longer, the will not be an Irish State in any
          meaningful sense of the World.

  16. ::::breaking::::

    Deutsche Bank’s Ackermann received a parcel bomb, pretending to come from ECB.

    Not a joke!

  17. CitizenWhy

    It is really hard to believe that Merkozy’s prescription for shrinking EU economies while paying off any and all private bank debts and shrinking tax revenues and constraining governments from providing stimuli in deflationary times is taken seriously. But it is. It is. Certainly the far right is the US is delighted. Who knows, Merkel may be shoved forth as the next Republican candidate for President (they would change the Constitution for that).

    Supposedly Merkel fears run-away inflation and the conditions that led to Hitler. Although I do not see a Hitler on the horizon, at some point the French will vote for LePen, since she alone opposes the Merkozy craziness. And, ironically, the posture of French collaboration with the Germans.

    Do not be too sure, David, that the Irish won’t vote for this crazy plan. It will be presented with all propaganda guns blazing and the Irish media will be leading the barrage.

    • Eireannach

      That, CitizenWhy, is a deluded post if ever I read one.

      I lived in Paris for many years and speak French.

      This current move was in the making since Strasbourg and Brussels were strategically chosen as the cities for European institutions. The federation of Europe was the ORIGINAL idea, only taking shape now.

      The majority of French agree with this federalization. Indeed, they are a bit annoyed that corporation tax isn’t federalized. If anything, the French are more Euro-federalist than the Germans, a few cranky far-left socialists or far-right wing-nuts like La Pen notwithstanding.

      Amazing how cry-baby loser Brits and Irish who aren’t the centre of the universe anymore still believe, even now (WTF?) that the Franco-German alliance is about to crack up and things will, eh, “go back to the way they were”.

      Oh no. The federalisation of Europe has been the plan since the Coal and Steel Community.

      • bonbon

        AFAIK De Gaulle was French. Saw what federalism meant in 1943 with Vichy. Pan-Europe is another word, the original federalist move. The extreme opposite to DeGaulle is the Mitterand faction, that now driving Sarkoleon. It is still “limit Germany with the Euro” even if it means hyperinflation to wreck it.

        Total madness. But Paris playing Napoleon to London’s benefit is an old act. Who else benefits from this?

        Never forget a 17-year old maiden threw England out.

    • Deco

      Naw….Fox News would not tolerate Merkel as US President….she is not trigger happy enough.

      There is a push to start a war with Iran, in the US news media. It is absolutely stupid. Iran has been treated agressively with respect to US Foreign Pilicy since a coup in 1953. Even then, the Shah was not suited to US/Western interests because he led Iran into OPEC. Then the US supported Saddam in the Iran Iraq war (remember the pictures of Rumsfeld and Saddam Hussein). And now there is more warmongering.

      Strangely enough being militant with Iran is actually making the current Iranian leader stronger.

      A full apology for all past needless interfering might actually bring Iranian people around to ensuring peace. It might even lead to regime change.

      But it is regarded as a non-option. I mean the entire debacle of policy in Latin America will also have to be given a more honest assessment. Not possible either.

      • bonbon

        Schwarzenegger tried to change the US constitution (George Shultz for him) in 1991 and failed. He got Governator instead. Then he was briefly a EU President candidate! We got Rampuy instead…

        LePen’s daughter is on the move alright.

        And Obama was going to start WWIII, now on hold because of massive institutional/military resistance and Medvedev’s extremely clear move on the Med and Kaliningrad, but the drive is on – even Biden put his shoe in his mouth. Netan’yahoo is beyond crazy and Israeli institutions are on full mobilization to stop this.

      • Trailer trash for president, yeah why not, does not make any difference.

      • bonbon

        Its a bad mistake the analogy of Iran and Iraq, or even Syria and Libya. The key is the Russian extremely sharp reaction. They know they are the target. This is a different game. Obama is going after Russia and China right now under our noses! This was the move expected, now slightly delayed, tripped up. Its not stopped.
        That makes Netan’yahoo not a patriot of Israel, he is willing to throw it as grenade! Iran knows some of this. Obama was advised by the JCS to send a very clear message that any attack by Israel had to be cleared. Obama replied it would be better if the US did not know! WTF – he means WWIII to start without any US intelligence? This is insanity.

  18. Malcolm McClure

    Anatole Kaletsky in debate with Charles Gave made some interesting observations:

    “Angela Merkel has consistently claimed that Germany would “do whatever it takes” to save the Euro. But what has she actually done? She consistently refused to take any of the actions that could actually work to save the Euro and has prevented European institutions from taking such actions, even when the German veto had no legal or moral justification.”

    “Is it possible that Germany, far from trying to save the Euro, actually wants to break it up? A clear historical precedent is the sabotage of the European exchange-rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992. And the institution that now seems to be working to destroy the Euro is the same one that organised the ERM breakup–the Bundesbank.”

    “In short, the Bundesbank policy on the Euro crisis is to present the other countries of Europe with a stark ultimatum: either they accept German economic directives, German monetary theories, German financial practices and even governments imposed by Germany, as part of a draconian new regime for national insolvency and administration. Or they must face financial chaos and expulsion from the Eurozone, …”

    Gave replied:
    “… the Euro was thrust on an unwilling Bundesbank by Mitterrand and Delors as a compromise to France accepting German re-unification. So the Euro’s very birth was an unhappy one to start with.”

    (Hat-tip to John Mauldin.)

    This entire debate, too long to include here, contains the key to understanding what will unfold on Friday, the dreaded ‘Twelfth’. – It remains to be seen whether it results in gifts of three French Hens –or will it be just two Turtle Doves, with Merkle and Sarkozy waltzing off into the Euro sunset.

    • bonbon

      If my memory serves me right 1992 was the Lira and Sterling being mauled by none other than George Soros.

      This was discussed by none other than Draghi just before on the Royal Britannia Yacht – just look for “the britannia boys” in italian google. The “boys” list and whoever presided (not the Queen) is most revealing. Other meetings badly reported led up to the Yacht.

      This was the step to the Euro.
      I wonder what George et al., are up to right now.

      the Gave argument seems to omit the Thatcher outbursts – very strange.

      I have a horrible foreboding that this is well known and partly the reason for the apparent irrationality.

  19. SleeplessInWicklow

    I could never vote to accept anything from europe in its current form. After a quick few chats with my family etc..well thats 14 people who will vote no.

    Unlike some posters here, I do think the Irish people would reject any referendum from brussels. I still hold some faith.

    I still dont see anything in this agreement to stem the tide of financial collapse. By march 400 billion has to be turned over from european countries and a further 2 trillion aparently from other countries. Then another 400 billion or so again later in the year. Without the printing press its all going to come down so who cares? There is no mention of the printing press in this agreement, so where is the money coming from?

    Spain, belgium, portugal and greece are in the crapper. Either we or one of those countries will put a spanner in the works. How long is the puppet allowed to stay in charge in greece anyway before an election?

    • Eireannach

      Well then there won’t be a referendum, too risky, obviously!

      Nor will their be a revolution in Ireland in protest, doubly obviously!!

      Endgame. We might get an offer of money off in exchange for a yes. More likely just sign here or leave the euro.

      We have no plan B to go it alone. So that leaves plan A.

      Too bad Ireland, should’ve regulated our banks! Europe will be doing that for us from now on, again obviously, as we can’t be trusted to do it – now, can we?

    • Eireannach

      @SleeplessinWicklow

      You don’t get it, do you? This isn’t about holding the eurozone together – it may be too late for that. It’s about federalising core Europe, and anyone who wants to stay in core Europe, just pass this Treaty into law.

      Now you may say, and your 14 family and friends, ‘we don’t accept this Treaty’. Do you think core Europe will fall apart because some rustic clowns in Ireland who blew countless billions because they don’t understand how to regulate banks will have the power to stop this thing?

      You have a deluded sense of Ireland’s importance if you think we can stop this thing. We vote no and we are out, plain and simple.

      Then and only then will DMcW get the ‘”exit from the euro” he has always wanted.

      If we leave the eurozone Ireland will descend into Dad’s Army in no time, with the usually clowns Eamon Dunphy and Eamon Ryan and Fintan O’Toole being paid RTE licence fee-payers money to engage in pantomine debate while Rome, figuratively speaking, burns.

      And not ONE F**KING COUNTY IN EUROPE OR DARE I SAY THE WORLD will feel sorry for us. EU structural cohesion funds, CAP monies, a massive injection of liquidity after joining the euro, flash new cars and other disgusting bling everywhere, blindingly vulgar and garish for the world to see our true values, a totally predictable ignominious crash to all that, a spoilt brat tantrum when asked to live within our means and then a grumpy refusal to ratify this Treaty, even if they offer us money off our sovereign debt as Greece was offered.

      What an ungrateful, despicable, vulgar kip!

      Enda Kenny, Labour, FF – they all know that we are seen, rightly, as a farce in Euorpe, and if we don’t sign this thing we can f**k off back to subsistance farming. That is the view in Europe and every poster on this blog knows it…now just suck it up. We screwed up big time. End of!

      We can negotiate a write-down of our debt in exchange for ratification. If you don’t agree with that either – then F**k off DMcW fans! You are HISTORY!

      • redriversix

        Eireannach

        “must be a bitch to be so co-dependent….read a history book or go back to watching Sesame street”…Please

        • Eireannach

          We are staying in the euro. We could conceivably negotiate a write-down of our debts in exchange for ratification of this Treaty, if we have the balls to do that.

          But if it is suspected that the Treaty will be voted down by the Irish, and it probably would, it won’t go to a vote. It’s too important for that.

          We will be staying in the euro. It’s a 90% certainty at this point.

          As I say, if that makes you feel powerless and grumpy you and your Dad’s Army bogger mates can set up the independent republic of Cork or whatever and try and organize leaving the eurozone/EU.

          You could send Captain Mainwaring, Corporeal Jones and Pike off on a trade mission to China.

          LOL

          • Eireannach

            Maybe that should be Dinny and Miley.

          • redriversix

            I don’t give a shit if we stay in the euro or don’t and I am pretty sure most people knew that we were heading for a federal Europe or a “United States of Europe”…

            What pisses modern Ireland off is the underhand way things are carried out.

            I am far from grumpy or powerless as you suggest,

            There are far more serious events happening in Europe and around the world.

            Federal Europe is old news,enslaving people is not.

            I quite liked Dads Army and miss those innocent day’s
            As for my blogger mates,I am proud that you call them that….

          • Eireannach

            “Underhanded way” my foot!

            The PIIGS are beyond a joke, they’re a f**king disgrace. Berlusconi, the Spaniards building anything anywhere, wrecking their own country in the process and wasting other people’s money. The Irish the same. The Greeks, words fail everyone.

            Imagine the cry-baby Italians shrugging and saying they can’t collect taxes in the south of Italy because of the mafiosa. I guarantee you the IMF will push the Italians in their to sort it out the way a mother pushes her child away from the poolside to paddle with his/her life preserver or armbands.

            Yes, the PIIGS are that ridiculous. Every one of them!

            The whole business of making them pay off the loans of international bondholders is to teach them a lesson in hard geopolitical power.

            All sympathy for their whinging and “indignado” spoilt cry-babying is over.

            Sign the Treaty and put your heads down and pay off your debts and don’t do it again…because the adults are supervising you now!

      • Deco

        Eireannach – what other’s think of us is irrelevant.

        What will we make of ourselves when we reach old age. That is far more significant.

        • Eireannach

          My position is based on the following observation – we are utterly crap when unsupervised.

          Ghost estates on floodplains, judges still wearing British wigs in court, no regulation of anything anywhere, waste everywhere, oversized German luxury cars on pot-holed roads.

          I rest my case.

          Ireland out on its own again! FFS you must be kidding me!

      • MidasMoney

        Eireannach, so typically a post colonial slave mentality. Sadly, also typical of a certain Irish mind set that reminds me of a loser I knew years ago, whose attitude was “if it’s Irish, it can’t be any good” Seems that are still those around with this attitude.

        In fact we have massive leverage, although it’s probably beside the point, as the shadow banking system is on the brink. We could certainly bring it down, although that is probably academic, as it will almost certainly crash anyway. Anyone seen this article on Zerohedge;

        http://www.zerohedge.com/news/why-uk-trail-mf-global-collapse-may-have-apocalyptic-consequences-eurozone-canadian-banks-jeffe

        The fact is, we need to plan for an independent Ireland, and how we can survive in this growing depression, which will get much worse, before it gets worse. The criminals are in charge internationally and they control the governments, that’s why taxpayers money is being used to bail out the losses of private gamblers. I thought that in a Capitalist system, when you lose, you lose? Not anymore, now when you lose and you control governments, when you lose, you win, courtesy of taxpayers, and the best bit is, you then get bonuses on your taxpayer facilitated profits. How cool is that?

        The choice for Ireland is to finally grow up and take responsibility for ourselves. No more cap in hand, no more passengers. It’s going to get very tough out there, and as the old saying goes, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Eireannach thinks we won’t be able to do it. The fact is we have no choice. Necessity is the mother of invention.

  20. redriversix

    Banks are bigger than people or Countries now.

    They care not one whit about us,the people as we are just consumers and a opportunity.

    If Banks finance Governments…Governments cannot be impartial.There was a time when it was not so obvious,but they no longer have to worry about who know’s what anymore as the dumbing down of a generation,the rise of consumerism and the enslavement of a generation to eazy credit has meant people no longer care how they operate.

    Credit slavery has replaced the slavery of the 19th Century.

    Fear of losing the material items in people’s lives has removed their individual thinking and their ability to question important issue’s.

    We are lost…..we no longer know what is truly important.As a people , we are spiritually,and emotionally bankrupt.

    Our and “their” Government’s have no control…….

    I believe,the only protest that can work now is a Financial strike…for the sake of compromise ,from now on , only pay 20 % of all bills,except the obvious i.e food etc.

    Can you imagine how much damage this would do to Banking and Government in a 3 month period..? if enough people took part….but , of course it won.t happen as their is too much FEAR out there.

    Which suit’s the power’s that be,just fine.

    So,in conclusion,if we don’t have the ball’s to tell a Bank to Fcuk off,how can we possible mount a resistance to Military Action when They come to collect our resources….

    “but….”they wouldn’t do that…would they”….????

    So bite down hard and bend over please,Thank you.

  21. Deco

    The move towards centralized decision making in the EU Empire continues.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eurozone-powers-propose-common-corporate-tax-rate-531390.html

    Where are those cast-iron guarantees provided that that pretenscious fakes Mickey Martin, Dick Roche, Mary Harney, the IBEC heads, Gilmore, Kenny, Creighton, etc…

    • Eireannach

      @Deco

      Do you reckon we should keep a competitive corporate tax rate vis-à-vis our eurozone partners? Do you think we should fight AGAINST them, AGAINST the spirit of the federalization of Europe?

      I think all of Europe has a major problem with lawless bankers, but I always knew the EU project was federalist. Are you surprised to discover the EU project has turned out to be more than a common market, that it’s a federalist project?

      Are you seriously that peripheral, than Oirish, than naive about the EU project?

      Do you Ireland, a tiny little republic which joined this project in 1973, will stop federalisation on the infantile charge that ‘we weren’t told it was going to be a federalist project’?

      We took the EU structural funds, CAP monies, joined the euro, and now we disingenuously feign surprise that the EU is federalizing! Quelle surprise!

      If you don’t like it, move to Clare Island or Inishboffin and set up and independent republic. Or maybe Cork can set up an independent republic and leave the eurozone/EU.

      What a Dad’s Army farce this country is!

      They’ll crush us. It’s over. Negiotiate a 50% write-down in return for signing the Treaty, or just leave the euro altogether. The third option is just sign the Treaty and pay all the bondholders. Those are the options, now choose, and let that be the end of your sobbing and cry-babying and phoney surprise at the federalist “plot”!

      FFS!

      • Deco

        Eh, who is “them” ?

        The same people in Brussels who have insisted in us paying the bonds held by failed gamblers in the Toxic Bank of Seanie Fitz, and Fingers.

        Look at the Euro-mess.

        “Them” are a bunch of inept chancers.

        Put it this way – the British Empire was better at looking after it’s interests in 1921, than the EU Empire is looking after it’s internal affairs in 2011.

        And we had to get out of that.

        • Eireannach

          SO when we leave the EU, will you and Dinny and Miley be going on an Enterprise Ireland junket to the “emerging markets” of India and China?

          It’d be like Albania, except as far as I’m aware Albania didn’t blow billions of euros of other people’s money.

      • bonbon

        Look at the enemy more closely. I post below just 1 example of Dexia.

        Then ask who has a problem!

  22. JimmyBean

    Jesus David you nearly “mentioned the war” in the last sentence.

    Regards

    Basil

    Economics Without Boundries

  23. bonbon

    Something is really wrong on this blog – correct me if I am wrong but no derivative discussion?

    Belgium – Dexia Bank

    While everyone claims that the big problem is the sovereign debt, with Italy and Spain having to raise billions over the next months, this is peanuts compared to explosive debts of the European banking system. Take the example of the “virtually” bankrupt Franco-Belgian Dexia bank. French and Belgian investigators have unearthed the fact that it has

    no less than EU900 BILLION in off-balance-sheet

    liabilities, including credit default swaps and other derivatives. This is equivalent to half the entire Italian state debt and many times more the combined budgets of Greece, Ireland, and Portugal. And that is only one bank.

    They found this despite severely limited powers, not a full Peccora type commission.

    THIS is what’s driving the elites crazy.

    THIS is why a split-banking Glass-Steagall type law
    must protect us from the overhang.

    These can NEVER be paid under any scenario.

    Imagine what the situation is with Deutsche Bank, never mind WallStreet “banks”.

    • redriversix

      “this can never be paid under any scenario”

      That’s right,BonBon.

      Which is more proof that this entire mess is about a debt for resources “swap”…

      Best

      • bonbon

        Some here seem to think the “enemy” is all-powerful, massively convincing, and impossible to defeat. When a general hears that he has the soldier either court-marshalled or worse!

        Look at the off-balance-sheets of the 6 “to-big-to-fail” TBTF’s and we get about 2 quadrillion, that is 2 000 trillion Dollars fictitious debt. These numbers have driven previously sane, even well-meaning poltiticians totally cross-eyed. Bankers like Ackermann is grinning – he knows no court will get into this. He is using a nuclear financial bomb.

        With this kind of terrorism, estimate now what to do, and what they are likely to do. Flight-forward?

  24. wills

    David,

    The crux of the article seems to focus on getting banks lending again.

    These banks are corrupt.

    Getting them lending again is merely putting bullets back in the sociopath’s gun.

    The fight for the Euro’s survival I reckon may prevent another financial ponzi scam running amok.

    Sticking with the Euro means the wreckage of what the insider banking system did with the euro cannot be washed away and the drama will be allowed to play itself out to the bitter end.

    This is what we must get.

    The criminal banking system must be flushed out.

    Ending the euro will quite possibly just open up a new opportunity for criminal finance to re-invent a new ponzi scam.

    • Eireannach

      I’d agree with that Wills.

      We leave the euro and we will absolutely, positively, utterly be played for the suckers we are in this country.

      Make no mistake, we are still suckers who would see their granny to get a loan of money – and in the process increase our debt burden, again!!

  25. goldbug

    ->EIREANNACH

    FRENCH AND GERMAN BANKS BLEW THEIR INVESTMENTS.

    ITS CALLED CAPITALISM. THEY KNOW ABOUT RISK.

    I KNOW I DIDNT BLOW ANYONES MONEY.

    PERHAPS U DID??

    IF U FEEL GUILTY THEN GIVE BACK WHAT U TOOK.

    OR ARE U STILL SLURPING FROM THE GRAVY TRAIN?

    • Eireannach

      Well, well, well.

      I obviously have no Celtic Tiger overhang, otherwise I wouldn’t be chastizing the clowns who destroyed my country during the Celtic Tiger. Yes, I’m talking about the vulgar public as well as the politicians and regulators.

      We have the power to try, at least, to get a 50% write down on our debts in exchange for ratification of this Treaty.

      What do you think of that deal? Or do you reckon we should not sign the Treaty and pay back none of the bondholders?

      • bonbon

        Good idea, but by March 2012 the system will not look anything like now. The entire reality will have changed. The treaty or not will not be the worry. Write-downs either.

        • redriversix

          I do not think the system will look like anything it does now in Jan 2012…! never mind March 2012.

          March “treaty meeting”may not even happen as the likes of French and German Banks begin to creak under huge market pressure never mind the downgrading by rating agencies.

          There constant plan to buy time with meeting after meeting will backfire with horrific result’s in the New year.

          Do you think Bonbon, this generation would be able to fight morally or psychically ?

          I am not so sure,but I will take it under advisement.

        • bonbon

          Right about Jan 2012. Buying time may be going on, but for what? I think of 2 or 3 options.
          1)What will Obama do? The fog of war is already thick.
          2)Efforts now to impeach Obama either with some new pretext, extremely dangerous, or the various justice cases closing in. Provoking Russia to a very sharp response has electrified some in DC.
          3)The next major blowout, inevitable but not exactly predictable – Fukoshima Finanz mit Ausstieg – exit.
          4)A Pearl Harbor effect. Incapability, stupidity, decadence, rage change instantly.
          5)Something highly destructive, massively disruptive. Definite danger.

          With Obama playing basketball in a rubber room, so much would be so easy. The fog would lift, Glass-Steagall would go through in minutes. Merkozy would go back to being separated twins. Kenny might even do something that right now is unthinkable.
          London would go insane, he was doing such a great job!

          The younger generation will build us out of the damage, but that’s great work. And there is a massive amount of projects very advanced in planning – at least the time was not wasted. I think a dam will burst. We are preparing for this, and to make sure what’s happening cannot happen again.

          We are pushed to a boundary in a finite and unbounded world. The planet cannot tolerate this boundary any longer.

          • Eireannach

            The “younger generation” are on iphone, X-Factor and Facebook 24-7-365.

            The only things they’re “building” are their CVs.

            They don’t join college societies and they can be seen in AIB and BoI flourescent jackets trying to sell new student accounts all over the city. Or giving out smirnoff flyers, wearing colourful wellies to Electric Picnic and other assorted crap.

          • bonbon

            I know. When Obama is impeached, that fog will clear. I do not worry too much. After all young means energy. The only danger is the same old finance will rob them. But that will vaporize, and any remaining weeds will be in museums for rare artifacts.

            After all we are taking about the distant future of Jan 2012 here.

          • coldblow

            On BBC’s Newsnight last night all seemed agreed (even Paxman) that the City of London should be defended. It took me back a little.

          • Eireannach

            That’s because the Brits and Irish are such a vulgar capitalist disgrace, they can’t even see it themselves.

            Ireland defending it’s preferential corporation tax is about the same as Britain defending the City of London, of all places, after everything they’ve just done!

          • bonbon

            London consider Glass-Steagall a hostile act, as they told Obama 2 years ago. The fog is clearing – the real monster is coming out of the shadows.

            There is the epicenter. And Obama is their man.

    • coldblow

      Hudson has been on the ball all along.

      • It is nothing new what he wrote about, really, but at the same time this perspective of political and historical economy is very important in our context, and his history lessons are well prepared in deed.

        I was very astonished to see especially the FAZ print the article.

        • coldblow

          Surprised me too.

          Re political economy, of course Hudson has argued for years now that this has long gone out of the equation and that what is known nowadays as economics is just a mathematized theoretical justification of the financial status quo. You can’t retrain economists in his view, you need to start again from scratch and call the new discpline something else.

      • bonbon

        Most revealing is what’s missing – derivatives. Not one word. Also on this blog. FAZ finds it thus safe to print.

        • coldblow

          If it’s Hudson’s article I can’t remember how much he goes into derivatives.

          He’s big on the manipulation of global currencies though. I wish I understood it more clearly. One of his favourite themes (Super Imperialism) is how the the US has used its world leader position to run up huge deficits over the last 4 decades or so and effectively get a free lunch. The rest of the world effectively bankrolls the deficit which is largely spent on US defence, including their encirclement by US military bases.

          eg
          http://michael-hudson.com/2010/07/dollar-hegemony-and-the-rise-of-china/

          A good start for any conspiracy theorists out there!

  26. bonbon

    Knowing the derivative nuclear bomb ticking off-balance-sheet, there is only one thing to say about Federalism, Robert Burns’ :

    “the best laid schemes of mice and men go often askew”.

    If that is not defused, like the bomb in Koblenz this week, there will be nothing left.

  27. Alanfromnavan

    Its obvious to me what the French and German government want, they want us out of Europe. They are both very aware that Irish people will never give up their corporation rate of 12%, and by forcing a vote on this in Ireland, they are confident that any new treaty will be rejected here. In that way we will solve their problem, we as a very indebted country will be out of the Euro and no longer a threat to their banks and their economies. I dont know about the rest of you here but I for one will be voting no to any new treaty no matter what our lilly livered politicians tell us.

    • Eireannach

      France and Germany do not want us out of “Europe”, not even out of the euro.

      However, they are not pandering to our cry-babying about keeping our corporation tax at 12.5%, deliberately – yes Alan from Navan I said deliberately!! – undercutting our European partners in a nasty way.

      The same European partners who gave us structural cohesion funds, still give us CAP monies, etc.

      Yet Ireland is full of people who fly into fits of apoplexy and foam at the mouth at the notion that they should play on a level playing field with the rest of Europe.

      What’s wrong, are we just too crap, to goofy, to inept to compete on a level playing field?

      We failed to regulate our banks, we failed to regulate the building industry and sold overpriced vinyl and glue houses to suckers on floodplains, et en plus after 5 years of Junior and Leaving Cert French il n’y a personne en Irlande qui est en mesure de parler le moindre français.

      We are the economic equivalent of remedial class saps who actually begrudge the other students their success rather than seek to emulate it.

      What – a – total – kip!

      Now, we have a fantastic chance to get a 50% write-off in exchange for signing this Treaty, just as Greece did. Actually, it’s the UK and German banks who are exposed over €100bn as bondholders in Ireland, Belgium and France are both under €50bn (still a lot of exposure).

      We can negotiate a final deal – but when I hear whinging bitches gutter-snipping about how we’re going to say ‘no’ to this and pay none of the bondholders, I ask myself the question “do these retards have a plan”? Of course not!

      So mark these words – there will be no referendum in Ireland, and if there is, it’ll literally be rigged to be a yes vote. Because a no will mean Ireland is Albania, with about 20 times the household debt of Albania.

      It is not going to be allowed to happen. FF, FG and Labour all agree on this.

      • Alf

        Eireannach, make no mistake, from day one, Ireland has been bullied by the EU to bail-out these banks. Condescending propaganda, similar to what you just stated, has been used very effectively to this day. The government officials have been weak and naive and have been given false information about the true state of these banks. Outright fraud has being perpetrated.

        During the boom, because of low rates, these banks were lending to an already over-inflated economy. Anybody who wanted to get a house had to pay extortionate prices to get a shack to live in. It was a disgrace but most Irish people were victims, not criminals. They were constantly brainwashed, 40 year mortgages on 1 bedroom ‘apartments’ was the only way to get on the ‘property’ ladder. The real criminals were happy to manipulate prices and pyramid their gains with low interest rates in the banks. The economy overheated, the ECB failed to stop it and the Euro literally wrecked the economy. Now they tell us we should give up what little we have to ‘bail-out’ these greedy failures.

        Ireland should reject this bank debt. It is not ‘our’ debt. It is a fraud, it is morally wrong. If the EU tries to kick us out for this, then so be it. History will judge them harshly. The whole system needs to be put into bankruptcy, including the ECB. If they don’t the whole thing is coming down. It’s a mathematical certainty.

        • Eireannach

          “Anybody who wanted to get a house had to pay extortionate prices to get a shack to live in. It was a disgrace but most Irish people were victims, not criminals”.

          Unless these people were under 18, they were NOT victims, they were autonymous actors in a marketplace who completely misjudged the future.

          They knew of voices like DMcW, George Lee and so on. They heard those voices, heard other voices from bankers and peers saying get on the ladder now, and chose the later.

          They were NOT victims. If by some bizare magic their house values were still going up today, would they feel their wealth was imaginary? Of course not!

          The Romans, after centuries of trade disputes in their cities, came up with a succinct warning for such transactions. “Caveat Emptor” – let the BUYER beware.

          Even the catastrophically morally hazardous decision to bail out our banks was an Irish government decision, albeit under pressure from the ECB. But only our government could do it – and they did it!

          Now we have 4 choices:
          1) Ratify this new Treaty, pay the bondholders in full
          2) Ratfiy this new Treaty on condition of a write-down of debt, say 50%
          3) Don’t ratify this new Treaty, leave the euro, still pay the bondholders (WTF?)
          4) Don’t ratify this new Treaty, leave the euro, don’t pay the bondholders.

          I don’t blame France and Germany for being “unfair” about forcing the Irish taxpayers to pay the bondholders. To them, especially to the French, we are not team players, as witness our position RE: our 12.5% corporation tax rate.

          We are all playing poker around the table and Ireland has a crap hand.

          We played our best cards already and lost! Because we were boastful bragards.

          This new Treaty is a sign of how suckers, in the game of life, are losers.

          • 33square

            there was no misjudgement in the marketplace Eireannach. all has been calculated. we’ve had thesis, we’re nearing the end of the antithesis. soon comes the synthesis.

      • bonbon

        Are you fuming for FG as a softener? This is a well known method elsewhere. The only ones who could possibly benefit from these repeated rants against the very victims of FF/FG/Labour, are, guess what, FG/Labour.

        Do you really believe fear and loathing works?
        Blue Shirts tried that before. What a tactic! It means they know they are in very serious trouble. They are looking into the FF abyss. The signatures on the vicious cuts are evidence and will be used against them.

        Poster Boy indeed.

        Nobody seriously believes write-down negotiation. Merkozy and Rompuy, said Greece is the only special case.

        I think the only risk is FG/Labour being thrown out – rated as acceptable risk.

        Burn the bondholders now. Look at the banking problem I posted. No need to negotiate.

        • Eireannach

          Everyone in Ireland would like to burn the bondholders. Obviously!

          Who doesn’t like the idea of not paying money, especially to professional investors?

          But what will become of us if we go renegade?

          I’d be ready to do it if I felt confident about my fellow Irish people and their ability to adapt to such a revolutionary upheaval.

          The fact is, I absolutely positively DO NOT have any confidence AT ALL in Irish people. The whinge, moan, cry-baby, squander money in the pub, snigger, giggle, tweet and tex on their iphones – they have no plan to rebuild Ireland in the event of a bondholder bonfire.

          They are just cry-babying because they’ve been manipulated into paying professional investors debts, which I agree is an immoral outrage to force on the taxpayers. But beyond the exhilaration of bonfire night, the bondholder burning anti-globalist, anti-banking crowd have no plan for what to do.

          They just want the thrill of power of burning the bondholders. Hurray! But beyond that, they haven’t got a clue what to do.

          So the Irish a cornered. They are afraid of paying the bondholders and accepting this Treaty, and they are afraid of the consequences of burning the bondholders and rejecting this Treaty.

          Why are they afraid in both directions? Because they are clueless rustic country bumpkins like Father Ted and Doogle. That’s why. They have that Doogle look in their eyes – I see it every day.

        • bonbon

          Ye are very good at the radical criticism, of the weak. Cowardly. Go after the big boys, but snarling will not work. These thugs in fine Armani suits like Monster Monti, are the criminals. Synarchists go after hapless people to SAVE those thugs.

          The Big Boys have a weakness – even hinting at burning, causes reverse leveraging to start. Have you any idea how to fight? Either you do not want to fight or you work for them.

          Staying in this game like the Rapa Nui with a statue for every mighty Treaty? We are not that stupid.

          By the way the Rapa Nui did not die out. Paul Gauguin painted in Tahiti with their script and even learned to write nogorongo. So their FG stayed trapped!

      • Alanfromnavan

        Your right our regulator failed to regulate our banks, but didn’t the Germans French and English Banks lend recklessly to our banks as well so they are equally as guilty as our guys and therefor should share the blame. But what you claim to be our so called partners are protecting their banks, while the Irish taxpayer shoulders all the blame. Also during the middle of the boom The European Central Bank set interest rates that suited thew German banks and while our bubble was growing did nothing to cool the bubble down therefor contributing to the blame. The Americans did the same with Fanny Mae and the other bank that name I forget. So its not what you claim to be the problem, only us Irish idiots, the same applies to most of the world. Its the system that’s the problem not just the Irish people. The Germans themselves found themselves positioned on the right side of this boom, not by their superior intelligence, but by accident of re-unification. When the introduced austerity to cope with taking on East Germany.

        • Eireannach

          Do you know that the Irish have a reputation for being property speculators, in Spain, Berlin, the French Alps ski stations, etc?

          We refuse to increase our corporation tax in line with the core EU countries. We do this to have more jobs and to sucker up to corporations more than other European countries, to pander to their desire to not pay tax.

          Our average salaries are well above European average.

          Add all of this together, and the French-German core powers think “these bastards will get away with anything they can get away with. They are brazzen f**kers. They buy property in our countries to accrue profits to themselves, but they don’t make the effort to speak our language(s). Let’s fight back! Let’s get them to guarantee their banks and they can use their ill-gotten gains to cover the bets of our banks, and save us from exposure to their nonesense”.

          Ireland was like a wild west for the UK, German, French and Belgian banks (and others), huge frontier town profits and activity, but totally out of control.

          Finally, practically every poster on DMcW blogroll wants out of the euro because it’s a German conspiracy or whatever.

          The problem is, you guys had better explain to the Irish public what’ll happen if we don’t sign this Treaty and leave the euro. 30% of the public sector will lose their jobs, practically overnight. Corporations will flee because they know we haven’t a clue what we’re doing, we’re just getting our own back on bonfire night.

          As I said, given the vote the Irish will say no to this Treaty. But we haven’t got a plan – we’ve got an iphone. Seán Gallagher nearly became our president.

          Ireland? As the old saying goes “you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear”.

    • Dorothy Jones

      You’re correct. Last evening, I got this in the evening, unwittingly: ‘Tja, Irland ist auch so ein ‘Rausschmeissland’ [wie Griechenland]

  28. Bap-Issuance

    I am facing this wet rainy cold morning again and the shock of yesterdays sudden price increase in my hot morning cuppa at my local kiosk .The daunting task to know already that my meagre pocket will be much lighter than it should be after I have consumed my essential needs to keep my life flowing adrenal working to make a meagre living in this now awful place of Ireland.

    I am asking myself why ?

    I am noticing how some who once sat near me now have procrastinated and instead of purchasing their usual cuppa have decided to share a tea bag with their colleagues and plenty of hot water and sit on a public bench nearby. The mood is sombre and their clothes colours dark and uninviting .There is no banter and everyone passing look bewildered as the next and looking at each other in dismay and confusion .I am alone in this kiosk like a fish in a fish bowl wondering whether I am better inside or not .

    I am feeling I am stealing the rich taste I have paid for and denying that pleasure to others .Its a sub conscious guilt that ruins my dreams .I am inside a railway station watching travellers and some quiet old and weak pulling what seems all they have .Many look inside the kiosk and today now I am alone there .I ask myself am I the monkey in the zoo or are they the monkeys in the zoo . Does the price increase decide that ? I am being fed at least for now .So does that make a difference.

    As I watch the electronic notice boards swivel their long numbers and times my thoughts turn to the black horse Inflation and how easy and quickly that can rise too .Then I ask myself who will be in the kiosk and will anyone be passing by .

  29. Malcolm McClure

    …..will anyone be passing by?

    Cue: Enter stage left Victor Sylvester playing violin.
    Tune: ‘When we Begin the Beguine’

  30. At least one–the Central Bank of Ireland–is evaluating whether it needs to secure additional access to printing presses in case it has to churn out new bank notes to support a reborn national currency, according to people familiar with the matter.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203413304577084483874422516.html?mod=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories

    • Malcolm McClure

      Noonan might be advised to check whether North Korea can provide Punt Nua in bulk at a discount.

    • bonbon

      Germany outsourced its Euro printing to Holland I believe. GS&D lost the contract. But it is reported the DM printing presses were never dismantled.
      And a very nice rumor on a large printing company near Leipzig whose orders for the “silver” strip suddenly went sky high, but of a different width than the Euro standard. Very difficult to verify of course.

      WSJ probably has access to CIA intelligence. Any such moves are probably considered national security.

  31. Alanfromnavan

    Good one Malcolm lol

    • Eireannach

      Look at your childish jokes at a time like this!

      Would you be the vanguard of burning the bondholders?

      Are you the new leadership of Ireland, with Sinn Féin at the helm. Punt Nua!

      FFS!

    • bonbon

      Its not a joke. The joke is FG. You call that leadership.

      That’s FOLLOWSHIP.

      FOLLOWSHIP Finance lads!

  32. bonbon

    The French coined the word “Synarchist”, the tactic of finance to use left-right agitation to get their way. US intelligence documented it after WWII.

    The so-called Irish banks are fumbling around with European Synarchism! Wow what a sight to behold! They cannot even handle off-balance-sheet swindles and now try the Synarchist text-book. Maybe Goldman Sachs passed a copy.

    I begin to see left-right agitation in this blog!
    From guns&ammo rage to unbelievable snarling at the failures of people.

    DMcW is the voice of reason, the common enemy of left-right.

    Maybe the synarchists are terrified reasonable people will go after their little game, the derivative bomb?

    Text book case.

    • Eireannach

      DMcW is a right-wing “that’s capitalism” Atlanticist.

      Stupid Irish people living in vinyl and glue gafs on floodplains – does he say cavear emptor folks “that’s capitalism”?

      Of course not, because, as everyone except this fan club persistently point out, he’s what’s known as a “populist”.

      Burn the bondholders, but don’t burn the muppets on the floodplains. What’s good for the goose is NOT good for the gander. In other words, “populism”.

      • bonbon

        Whether you know it or not you are playing Synarchism. What did they call it at the School?

      • Dear Eirennach,

        What was populist about telling the Irish people that they were being duped from 2000 onwards? My memory was that it wasn’t a popular message at all. In fact many to the so-called “everyone” you mention who now might term me a populist didn’t stand up for what was right both – financially and morally – at the time. Gombeens!

        Maybe you remember it differently. The burning the bondholders is only normal capitalism. Its called co-responsibility. We both – debtors and creditors – pay for our mistakes and then move on.

        The reason, I stand up for those on the floodplains and make exception for them is that is they were duped. They didn’t present themselves as professional investors but in many cases were the victims of vicious financial propaganda paid for by interests closely aligned to the bondholders.

        Best David

        • Adam Byrne

          That’s fair enough David but some people set themselves up to be duped and would rather be in the pub squandering their money and brains than in the library educating themselves to resist blatant propaganda that was obviously false and idiotic.

          There are underlying cultural and intellectual problems in this country that make us anyone’s fools at the drop of a hat.

          • redriversix

            Hi Adam.

            The problem seem’s to be insecurity and ,of course the pub or off-licence is a major problem.

            All big corporations need fools to buy their product’s.

            Fair play to David for responding to “Eireannach”….the guy sounds like he spent the last 15 year’s looking out his window passing judgement on everyone walking by.. sounds like a very balanced guy…gotta a chip on both shoulder’s….!!!!

          • Eireannach

            I’m just putting it to the vulgar Irish Celtic Tiger losers.

            You lose! End of! Now sign the new Treaty at let that be the end of it!

          • coldblow

            Hi Adam

            I know what you are saying but for me the main point is that the price of housing always rises to the amount that banks will lend on it. By the way, does anyone dispute that, I wonder?

            One way of looking at it is that, in some respects at least, nearly everyone is naturally foolish in some regard or other, but can they be blamed for that? Hard to say. We got a couple to buy our house 3 years ago. I knew (from this site) the way prices were headed, for certain. But we had to sell, and we came down a long way (45k) in the asking price.

            I agree with you that there are cultural and intellectual problems. But like everything there will be reasons for that. When I came over in 87 I was struck by this ‘European’ malarky. I asked a few young people if they felt more European than Irish and quite a few said yes. It just sounded odd. They also told me how good their education system was. It was always going to be ‘interesting’ after I heard that.

          • Deco

            Adam -thanks for your sentence
            {
            There are underlying cultural and intellectual problems in this country that make us anyone’s fools at the drop of a hat.
            }

            This explains a lot of the lemming effect in this society.

            +100% in agreement with you.

        • Eireannach

          David,

          We all know the bondholders have the Irish taxpayer over a barrel, and this new Treaty, what we’ve heard so far about it, simply strengthens their hand further.

          But we still have a nation of admittedly “amateur” “investors”, who bought houses because “they were told” that it was a good idea.

          If the people of Ireland were principled, they’d fall on their swords and push hard for a change in the status of all new property contracts since, say, entry into the eurozone as non-recourse. They’d give back the keys and start again with no black mark at the credit bureau.

          But they won’t let go! They are in epic, unmanageable negative equity but they won’t let go! Because they are materialist and attached. Try standing up in front of the public and telling them to let go of their homes, that it’s too late. You’ll be attacked and destroyed.

          Burn the bondholders is the most populist chant possible, who doesn’t want to burn the bondholders? But how about a more comprehensive zero-sum game – burn the bondholders, change property law to non-recourse and give back all the houses. Then you’ll see the public fighting their corner as ferociously as the bondholders.

          They all want to have their cake and eat it – bondholders and negative equity home “owners”.

          The only difference is that the bondholders have more influence over politicians. But apart from that it’s the same on both sides.

          The professional investors are as morally and ethically mixed as the wider public. The professional investors hold onto their bonds and the public clinge tenactiously and inflexibly to their homes.

          • redriversix

            If you ever make a mistake in your life,Eireannach..I hope people will cut you some slack and help pick you up.

            Humility,Compassion and understanding are trait’s we all could practice every day.

          • Harper66

            “change property law to non-recourse ”

            +100!

            I cannot understand why this is not be spoken about more.

            It would create a situation of lender beware and banks would be more careful of who they lend to.

          • Evening Eireannach,

            You will know that this site has been championing non-recourse for along time, so we have no quarrel there.

            D

          • Dorothy Jones

            @ Eireannach
            Agree with the point about bondholders’ influence over politicians and non-recourse.
            The Nation is paying substantial amounts of money to NAMA, where the developers and staff are paid ridiculous salaries.
            They all worked together in consultancy and developer roles previously. To an extent, those who manage loan portfolios are there because they had previous knowledge of developer finance
            Non-recourse in that arena would be great, but it looks like it will never happen. As an admirer of namawinelake, it sometimes makes me very sad to see the rewards afforded to those who have wreaked havoc.
            Did a mapping on NAMA players and their previous existences over the last number of years.

  33. Adam Byrne

    The Euro crisis is a red herring.

    Banks are the problem.

    Parasite banks need to be closed down and debts across the board cancelled.

    The Eurozone and EU can be reconfigured properly in the medium / long term.

    Banks need to be severely dealt with now. Close down the parasites and open new, clean banks, properly regulated and completely transparent. Profit not their main aim.

    This would be a first step on reinterpreting capitalism. It should not be capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.

    I repeat: the Euro is not the problem. Greedy, bankrupt, corrupt, evil banks are.

    Merkozy are using the Euro crisis as a smokescreen to line their own pockets and the pockets of their banker mates.

    • @ Adam Byrne

      Why did The National Crime Forum Report 1998 ignore written and verbal submissions by me on Irish Banks & Fraud at their Public Hearings ? Yet they invited me and they attested my name to that report .

      Why also did the Press who were present fail to inform the public at that public hearing ?

      Irish Bank Corruption were given a legitimate reason to escalate their cause for greed since then and they applied it with gusto.

      PS
      Report printed by IPA – Institute of Public Administration

      • Adam Byrne

        Because there was nothing in it for them John, obviously. Well done for trying though, as I’ve commented before.

        • Amazonian Fly

          I believe this is the fly in the Amazon whoe’s wings when they flapped has caused the the Anglo Debacle that has now resulted the Euro Crisis .

          The Report on The National Crime Forum was a dangerous catalyst that caused the World Crisis .

    • It was Germany’s most influential Alexander Dibelius, MD Goldman Sachs Investement Banking Germany, who said that Banks do not have any duty to fulfill social duties. That about sums it up, and is exemplary, despite Ackermann’s ethic waffle, for the clear majority of the financial industry, including markets of course.

      In my view, you are 100% right Adam concerning Banks, but you need to think bigger, if I may say so..

      Did you notice how the discussion was shifted since 2008? Away from banks, and focussed on sovereign debts instead, of course, with a view that all has to be paid back, to banks, and Merkozy’s attempt, and not only theirs, is targeted at the notion to never default on bondholders, ever!

      The real bomb sitting under everyones arse is the tool of choice that bankers used for their blackmailing of entire nations, utilizing their mafia, the IMF, to expropriate further wealth from the people. Look up the history of the events that led to TARP in the U.S., the picture could not be any clearer.

      When you say bankrupt banks, you really hit the nail here, de facto, they are all bankrupt, with very view exceptions. That is exactly why I ‘propose’ since years now to shut down the markets and re-fit the entire building with new pipes, as the old ones are infested with legionnaires disease.

      If you look at the hierarchy of Banking,and especially who sits where, from Central banks to the BIS, the picture becomes even clearer why there was literally no change, and the little change that was proposed, well, it is circumvented straight away.

      The real failure since 2008 is strictly political.

      In Ireland, we had and still have a bunch of idiots governing, sorry to be so blunt but it is this way. I mean, if I see Richard Burton giggling for 15 minutes on Vincent Brown, having a hard time not to burst into laughter, it is evident what kind of people are governing this country. They lack the qualities that are required, and they have no balls left.

      On that ground, I would disagree with you, the problem is politicos willingly blackmailed by the Banksters derivative bomb, and it gets worse.

      There are very strong ideological convictions at work here that prohibit the required solutions since how long now, kicking the can? That’s right, it never changed, and the whole exercise is following a red line.

      This financial crisis is just the means to achieve a purpose, it is engineered.

      The global power shift and increased demand for global influence of the BRIC’s is at the center of this engineered crisis.

      Note how Geithner tours Europe at the moment. Look at the events unfolding in the pacific, or the events that now caused Russia to station missiles in Kaliningrad.

      It is not only the Eurozone that requires reconfiguration, it is the entire global financial industry, and here lies the real problem and the reason for kicking the can.

      Political solutions are required to deal with the Banksters, and the solutions, they were never proposed to date. Read up on Prof. William Black, and you find a single and most important statement that sums it all up. When he was in charge, and brought thousands behind bars, things changed. Today, not a single person was put behind bars, so things changed again.

      It is a global coup!

    • bonbon

      Commercial banking has a mandate, like the Ländesbanken system in Germany, badly tattered, but still limping along after repeated attacks and major errors in derivative wonder-instruments. AFAIK the only surviving normal banking.

      FDR’s Glass-Steagall split the banks into 2, one with a commercial mandate for local agro/industry, the other with none. The former got FDIC insurance, the other absolutely none. No flows allowed between both.

      This is the way both to restart credit, and dum the overhang.

    • bonbon

      Merkozy is a Draghi Mario-nette.
      They sure are not happy.

      Monti is more of a string puller.

      Seriously, you are spot on with the herring! And I have posted repeatedly how to salt those banks!

  34. should have been…. Banks do not have any obligation to fulfill social duties.

  35. Gonie

    Does anyone know if there is any truth in the rumour that the central bank has begun to print punts ?

  36. Adelaide

    Make no mistake, a person’s life in this country will become cheap.

    We are following in the footsteps of Argentina where life became so cheap (the rate of avoidable deaths through accidents/negligence/malnutrition/suicide and obviously crime increased as its economy sank) to such a degree that the state’s negligence of its citizens morphed into the deliberate murder of its citizens for gain.

    This may sound hysterical but sadly these are facts. The mentally ill murdered for their organs. Children murdered for fraudalent claims. Patients poisoned on dummy medicines because health officials illegally sold the legitimate medicines. School children poisoned on dummy milk because education officials illegally sold the legitimate medicines. And the list goes on and on.

    And Argentina was a First World country only ten years ago.

    What makes Ireland an exception?

    • bonbon

      Argentina’s “Greatest Fuel”

      Buenos Aires, the Paris of the Atlantic. Why not tell of the recovery, now underway with president cristina fernandez de kirchner, and her speech at the G20 on what Greece should do?

      Right now Argentina has a better future than Eire under FG/Labour. The financial Empire–and its current top cop Lagarde–has never forgiven Argentina for unilaterally defaulting on its debt in December 2001, imposing a 75% “haircut” on the vulture fund bondholders that had been looting Argentina for decades, and achieving record economic growth after that. Largarde finds what Argentina did as “odious”.

      Kirchner took action imposing a 75% haircut on bondholders in 2005 !!! Today 8% growth!!!

      The key as Kirchner just said in 28-Sep-2011 Argentina’s Greatest Fuel, its people!! Committed to scientific and technological progress opening Atucha II, its 3rd reactor.

  37. Deco

    France is facing a serious liquidity crisis.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8939146/Bank-of-France-debts-jump-tenfold-on-capital-flight.html

    No mention of this on Pravda.

    Belgium was in a dire situation over the Dexia debacle, to the point that the bond market threatened to collapse for Belgian sovereign bonds. When Belgium divorces, it will be ugly. Only the financial crisis is preventing it.

    Real estate valuations in Finland and Holland are getting stretched by the interest rate policy in the ECB.

  38. Benign Divergence

    I can happily inform you that the present eclipse of the planet mercury will be fruitful .Mercury is the planet of communications and at this juncture we can experience its ever presence and impact on us all .So in the next few days its powerful effect will become Good News. For Now anyway.

  39. andyg

    I see one commentator saying we would be better off to leave the EU. I suspect that the commentator meant leaving the EURO currency. There is a big difference in leaving the EU and leaving the Euro currency. It’s in Ireland’s interest to be in the EU from a free movement of goods / trade perspective. As for the Euro currency, I don’t think it’s in the interests of small nation states to be part of the Euro currency anymore. If Germany, France, the ECB and the American Treasury secretary let capitalism take it’s natural course during the banking crisis in this country we wouldn’t be in half the mess we are in now.. It will be interesting to see how Cameron gets on with all of this over the next few days.. will he be sidelined ? if he is forced by his Tory party a strong stance on further EU fiscal integration will this be of benefit to Ireland ? Or maybe I’m getting my hopes up here and the end of the meeting tomorrow will end up a non news event like most of EU heads of state meetings..

    • bonbon

      Merkozy say the failure of the Euro would end the EU. Fine. Good! Merkel has an excuse, Sarkoleon not.

      Europe, Westphalian Europe, will very quickly configure a new deal, I have no doubt whatsoever. We have been around a long time.

      The offices can be re-used, the other treaties shredded.

      Time to read the Treaty of Westphalia. Simple and its supposed to be the UN principle (openly violated).

      Only Blair’s Fabian London may have a problem, U.K. is not a nation-state, yet…

  40. Deco

    It is in our interests that we side with the British, and the Swedes concerning the latest installment of Fit It Again Today from the Brussels leadership.

    The EU is corrupt and compromised.

    We need to serve our interests.

    And we also need to break the bullshit coming from the Irish establishment that Brussels cares about us, and that we are special to the big movers in Brussels.

    We threw away our intellectual sovereignty when the PDs came onto the scene in Irish politics, and we have not regained our intellectual sovereignty since.

    • Colin

      Deco,

      Where do the British and the Swedes stand on the Tobin Tax? Isn’t that the correct solution that solves this enormous problem?

      • Deco

        Who cares about the enormous problem.

        All we care about in this country, post bein told to pay for bank bondholders who lobby the EU, is about our own interests.

        The EU position on bondholders (regardless of what is said) exposes the EU as a pro-corporate entity. We need to think about our responsibilities to our ourselves. And drop our “responsibilities” to the EU Empire.

      • bonbon

        If I may, me careful with Tobin Tax. That idea dates to 1992 AFAIK long before Glass-Steagall was repealed in 1999. The financial system then was a tea-party.

        In Frankfurt, the Occupy movement started with a Trennbankensystem (Split Banking ala Glass-Steagall), but ATTAC and Campact.de (Especially the latter taking big money) morphed it to Tobin, totally harmless now. Bankers will openly discuss Tobin, even in the square mile! Does that not tell you something?

        • Colin

          I thought it went back to the 70s. David had an article about it a few months ago I think.

          Anyways, sounds like a good idea to me. It deals head on with derivatives, the biggest scourge of our times. And yes, you can be a capitalist and be against derivatives, I’m one of many I’m sure.

          • bonbon

            O.k. but we are in a post Glass-Steagall nightmare, and Tobin is totally mismatched. Its too late, 1992 was the time to do this. Other instruments are now in play, and the off-balance-sheets are such dirty laundry, the Tobin is incapable of rinsing. Cameron’s Ring Fencing for example will not stop current bailout flows in play, only apparently brake new ones. Totally ineffective. And the Square mile doth protest too much, methinks.

  41. Deco

    I have caught two rumours from different sources to the effect that the Irish Central Bank have already printed off post Euro breakup currency, in case there is a break up of the Euro.

    Did any of you hear any similar rumours ?

  42. Deco

    We are being told repeatedly, if we exit the Euro, that our new currency will be rubbish.

    Actually, I beg to differ.

    Our trade balance figures indicate that any Punt 2.0 will have enormous upward pressure from the real economy.

    Being free from the ECB would mean that the bondholders would be finished. And it would also mean that borrowing from the EU would terminate fairly quickly.

    Big losers from the Euro breakup would be France, Italy and Belgium – as they are currently overrated in the sovereign debt market.

    • ict

      Yes, I’d wondered about that.

      Also, presumably a lot of money has left the country in recent months, in anticipation of such a euro exit. It follows that once this cathartic event happens, a good bit of this money will return, probably fairly promptly. Even if this is no more than a steady trickle, rather than the flood some might hope for, I assume it would nevertheless serve to increase demand for, and therefore the value of, the punt nua.. Would this not be yet another self correcting factor?

    • bonbon

      As long as the core defends its banks it would be the looser.Like Argentina, expect massive attack to follow, and fend off with the right policy.
      I think the Euro group would not last long enough to mount an overwhelming attack; London/Wall Street are the ones to watch.
      It would be much better for a whole group to suddenly burn the bonholders. A true Westphalian good old European (in the real sense) idea. Do good for the other Nations to smash the common enemy torturing us all by playing us each against all.

      Treaty of Westphalia stopped 100 years of slaughter with that simple principle.

      National Interest = to fully develop, and commit to develop the other Nations. Totally different to “going it alone to hell”. And this is the real Europe.

      Westphalian finance instead of
      Fukoshima finance or
      TweedleDee-TweedleDum finance.

  43. Deco

    Merkel’s prime objective as “creditor number 1″ in the Euro area, and as exporter number 1 into the Euro area is very simple.

    Preserve the Euro – no matter what the cost to everybody else.

    We need Paul Sommerville in the Dail exposing our muppets for their incompetence. FG and the ILP saturated Dublin SE in the last general election to keep him down.

    Paul Sommerville, Shane Ross, Stephen Donnelly are far more intelligent in their grasp of this country’s interest than stooges like Lucinda Creighton, Pascal O’Donoghue, Brian Hayes, etc…

  44. Colin

    So if Merkozy is trying to bring in the Tobin tax, 0.05% on each transaction, and Cameron is refusing to yield on this, then I have to say the Continentals are the good guys and the Brits are the bad guys. Its hard for me to say this since I currently make a living in the City of London now, albeit not in the Financial Industry, and enjoy living here and get treated very well by all I meet.

    • Eireannach

      @Colin

      At last! At least one person on this blogroll can see the patently obvious – Ireland’s predatory corporation tax rate and the Tory party’s commitment to defend the City reveal for the rest of Europe to see who are the individualistic, basically selfish guys in the EU club.

      Kenny and Cameron go to Brussels to “fight our corner” and defend our utterly bankrupt “modèle anglo-saxone”. What a disasterous logic, what hubris. The period of post-Clinton American hyperpuissance on the world stage went to our heads.

      • Deco

        Ah yes. Thankfully Sarkozy and Merkel are *ucking altuists and kind hearted swords of fairness and justice.

        This is just a means of sucking money out of England and giving ultimately to the French banks…

        • Eireannach

          Yes Deco, you have a beef with France, any reader of this blogroll knows that.

          Well this weekend won’t be your weekend, now will it?

          You can take your 12.5% corporation tax and crunch it up and throw it in your waste paper basket. It’s coming and you know it.

          Heureusement il y a des types en Irlande qui ne partagent pas ton avis et qui sont plus solidaire avec nos concitoyens européens, les français.

          • Deco

            You are on a trajectory to absurdity.

          • Eireannach

            Wrong Deco, I just think right-wing “Boston rather than Berlin” types like you need to be put in your place. Your free market Oirland has been a disgrace and it’s time for europhiles like myself (we are numerous) to rebuild this country and reconfigure its laws and institutions.

            All you do, week in and week out, is argue that American corporations based in Ireland should be retain their special privilege of paying little of no tax, and by golly you want Enda to go into meetings with Merkozy and fight for the rights of American corporations in Ireland to pay predatorially low tax. You’re a f**king disgrace to this country, and this treaty will see the back of you types.

            Now f**k off to “Boston” where you belong!

          • Colin

            Eireannach,

            You need to chill.

            Deco raises valid points about France’s intentions. Throughout the centuries, France has always let us Irish down when we needed help from them. I wouldn’t trust them more than I could throw Sarkozy’s high heeled shoes.

          • Eireannach

            Who inspired, and made some effort, to help Wolfe Tone in 1798?

            Then there was James II and the siege of Limerick and all of that.

            To think that there is even ONE brazzen twat anywhere on the island of Ireland who thinks Ireland should argue alongside the Tory’s who are defending the right of the City of London not to pay the Tobin tax is enough for me to reach for a handgun!

            The City shired and planted County (London)Derry. The freemasonic guilds of the City are intimately tied with the Orange Order.

            What’s with these Irish people who want to defend the rights of American corporations to pay 12.5% tax? Ireland deserves absolutely everything it’s going to get this w/end – that is, absolutely zero.

            This country blows billions of other people’s money and you want Enda to DEFEND the rights of American pharmaceutical, etc. companies to pay PREDATORIALLY LOW tax?

            Are you out_of_your_f**king_minds?

            Even Obama is thinking of going after these tax dodging rogues. To think clowns on this site want to shelter these tax dodgers!

          • Colin

            Answer A: George Washington
            Answer B: Seamus O’Caca wasn’t a friend of Ireland.
            Answer C: We lost in the settlement of Derry, learn to live with it and respect the other tradition. Plenty of Irish done well in colonial lands taken from natives there so we can’t cry foul.
            Answer D: People want to keep their jobs. If the rate jumps up, the multinationals will leave, making more people unemployed.
            Answer E: I want Enda to tear up the Croke Park Agreement, provide a stimulus to the economy with improving infrastructure, and I want him to tax the farmers more and the high earners more, and that’s just for starters.

        • Colin

          Money has been sucked out of Yorkshire, Lancashire, West Midlands, East Midlands,…..It’s only the home counties in the South East that are doing OK, and that’s due to the Salaries paid to bankers and financial analysts working there, and been fed down through the local economy.

          Bill Gates backs Tobin Taxes, as do many other high profile people. Since retiring from Microsoft, Gates has a proven record of altruistic work.

          • bonbon

            Check very carefully what Gates is doing, and the wife. Soros is also a philanthrop.

            Sure Tobin is favored by these as I posted above.

    • bonbon

      You are being played – the Cameron – Merkozy diversion is to stop Glass-Steagall, splitting off the derivative nightmare to oblivion. This is a TweedleDee TweedleDum pantomine!

      TweedleDee-TweedleDum finance!

  45. BiggyWiggy Rogers

    Whatever the game afoot – and whichever side you support … our democracy is effectively going down the pan from what I see.

    Remember the old Benn quote.. “What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you use it? To whom are you accountable? How do we get rid of you?.. Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system”

  46. BLACK MONDAY

    This will be a very very long week end .Full Moon peaks Sunday and Moon Wobble peaks Monday . WOW .What a Moment in Time !

    • Praetorian

      Let us please desist with ‘capitalism rules turned on their head’, it is totally bogus.

      What we are seeing is how the system works, this is not some abberation, this is it laid bare, rarely do we get such opportunities to see just how appalling this system is.

      Please, lett us not continue deluding ourselves it is almost as bad as the Irish government once saying they could cover the banks without actually knowing what they were covering.

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