September 28, 2011

Why the markets would thank us for defaulting

Posted in Irish Independent · 206 comments ·

Did you notice something strange over the past two days about the financial markets? The European stock markets actually rallied on the rumour that Greece would be allowed a “ring-fenced” default.

Now consider this again because the ‘official’ position of the Irish and the European political elite is that any default on anything by anyone would be a disaster, leading to huge capital flight and massive financial carnage.

If this is true, how come markets in the past two days have given precisely the opposite signal?

According to the latest financial market move, default actually calms things down for investors. It seems that it makes sense to face up to the reality that a country like Greece — or indeed a ‘bank’ like Anglo — has no money and therefore must default. If you prevent this basic capitalist process from happening (whereby investors pay for their mistakes), you spook the entire system.

If you doubt this, consider the graph. This graph shows the risk perceived by banks in Europe and how they will lend to other banks. The entire banking system is kept liquid by interbank lending, whereby banks lend to each other. Think about it. You go into the bank today and deposit money, but if that money is not lent out to someone else today, the bank will end the day with a surplus of funds in its safe. It makes sense for your bank to lend this surplus money to another bank, which may have lent out too much today. This is how the system works.

But what happens if banks don’t trust each other because they are worried about what is on the balance sheets of the banks they are lending to and think that maybe the bank won’t be able to pay them back? In such an unusual case, the rate of interest goes up on the interbank lending to cover the lending bank for the risk that the borrowing bank is borrowing precisely because it is running out of money.

Look at the chart above. It shows you what happened to the perceptions of risk in the European banking system in the past few weeks. It has skyrocketed. Interestingly, you can see that in the run-up to the Lehman crisis, the perceived risk increased enormously. Then it settled down after the Lehman default and collapse. It is important to see that this happened after the Lehman default.

Things calmed down and even during the various Greek, Irish and Portuguese crises last year, there was a sense that things would settle.

Now the idea that a massive debt crisis in Europe is brewing and there is no leadership to deal with it has sent this risk between banks through the roof again.

The only way this can come down is through a default in Greece and obviously in other countries that can’t pay their way. As the market reaction yesterday showed, if we default on old debts and put in place a fund to make sure it doesn’t happen again, then we can all look to the future. This is the basis of all bankruptcy procedures — old creditors who made the mistake get roasted, new ones get the gravy.

But the politicians won’t accept this logic, why? Why are the political establishment and the financial markets signaling two polar opposite outcomes to one debt crisis?

The reason is that the political establishment is worried about prestige and how the power of Europe might be perceived in the wake of a default in Greece.

Obviously, it doesn’t look good, short-term, if a country in supposedly the richest part of the world defaults. Nor does it look good for a part of the world, which has historically been important and is vying with the US as the best of the old superpowers, to have a delinquent country in its inner circle. So this is about political prestige.

Even if prestige makes the European balance sheet worse — because propping up lenders to bankrupt banks or indeed bankrupt countries is the ultimate ‘dead money’ — it appears that many political leaders want this option. Once you pay it, you get absolutely nothing back but, so the argument goes, ‘serious’ countries don’t default.

The markets, on the other hand, worry about future return, not past prestige. Financial markets have no memory. They are driven by the opportunity tomorrow rather than by recrimination for yesterday. What happened, happened and move on.

This is why a decision by a country (like Ireland) to pay all its bank debts, makes the country riskier, not less risky. The lesson we have to take from the European financial markets of the past two days is quite simple: if Mr Noonan walked away from paying the next tranche of Anglo bondholders, the market in Ireland would rally.

This is because every time we pay €700m to Anglo bondholders, it is dead money. This spending will not raise the productivity of Ireland in the future as it would do had the money been spent on schools.

In fact, it will retard productivity growth because it will have to be paid by higher taxes in the next generation. Yesterday, we saw what the markets think of this type of financial nihilism — they penalise it. This is why Ireland is locked out of the bond markets.

We need a massive change at the highest level in Europe to rescue the situation and this demands facing up to the world as it is, not the world as we would like it to be.

This generation of European leaders makes German Field Marshall Paul von Hindenburg, Neville Chamberlain and even Bertie Ahern look decisive. We are reminded of Henry Kiss-inger’s rebuke: “When I want to talk to Europe, who do I call?”

In the face of crisis, the Continent’s position has been denial. First it was the dithering EU Commission suggesting everything is going to be alright, then we had Angela Merkel stating that Greece wouldn’t be allowed to default and now we have the leaks, made real by injudicious comments from the Americans on Monday, that at the heart of the solution to Europe’s debt-problem will be some sort of ring-fenced default in Greece.

Expect the Greeks to be allowed to default in some form in the next few days. Then this leaves open the following logical question: if Greece can default on its debts, why not the Irish banks on their bondholders? Like certain others, they haven’t gone away, you know. This would save us tens of billions of euro. After all, the ECB is on the hook in Greece, and it is also on the hook here. What is good for the Grecian goose must also be good for the Celtic gander.

  1. CitizenWhy

    The Chairman of Deutche Bank will not allow defaults. Merkel obeys him as the voice of God.

    • molly66

      If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”hitler

    • dod6

      Conventional wisdom says Merkozy, Trichet, Barroso, Junkers et al are not up to the task because of some combination of (small-p) political weakness, indecision, incompetence or muddled thinking about who’s responsible for what in Euroland.

      Is there a more sinister Bundesbank game underway?

      Did Merkel deliberately spook the markets with talk of haircuts last November to drive up Irish bond yields and force Lenihan into the Troika’s programme?

      • 33square



  2. paddyjones

    Ireland is next after Greece but if anyone thought that the Greek problem will be solved by a default is wrong , austerity will still continue.
    The problem of deficits are still in focus . In Ireland its 18 billion this will have to be reduced to 3% of GDP by 2015, so austerity will still happen no matter what happens to the debt.
    So far all bondholders have been paid and my guess is that this will continue. We owe the ECB 160 billion and they have us by the nuts, I dont seriously think they will allow us to default.
    Markets have rallied just over the last 2 days but over the last month or two they have crashed , markets didnt go up because of Greece but because of rumours about the EFSF being leveraged . You will see markets are on a downward trend .
    The thought that a default of Anglo debts would make everything rosey again is just not true out total debts are huge maybe 600 billion will a couple of billion Anglo bonds make all that difference.
    David is not the messiah , I think he is a populist.

    • molly66

      If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”hitler.

    • @paddyjones

      Goliah was a very big and very strong man .David was a young boy and only had a stone in his sling and killed him.

      This David was neither a messiah or a populist . He was a Defender.

    • Re:

      “The thought that a default of Anglo debts would make everything rosey again is just not true out total debts are huge maybe 600 billion will a couple of billion Anglo bonds make all that difference.”

      Your posts are filling up with propagandist, deceitful, lying slurs and the above is a typical example.

      Its a pathetic reductio ad absurdam on your part.

      DmcW has never implied “The thought that a default of Anglo debts would make everything rosy” as you falsely state above.

      Here is a more detailed statement of what he actually wrote couple of articles ago, for which he should be commended!

      “Back in 2007, this column argued that one of the upshots of the financial crisis that was coming, but not appreciated by many, was that we would leave the euro, not just because it was inappropriate for Ireland, but because it would implode as it was half-baked.

      We are now close to this moment. A new currency and a massive devaluation will make us no friends in Europe, but by that stage they will be scrapping with each other so viciously that what we do won’t matter. Such a bold move will accelerate a recovery, just as the same policy has done everywhere else in the world — Iceland being the most recent example.”

      The reason I state that your post is a lying slur, is that I have evidence for it.

      You know DmcW has gone a long way further than stating default on Anglo bonds, which should have been done a long time ago, would make everything in the garden rosy for Ireland.

      Less with the ignorant innuendo, Paddy, stick to the facts.

      Go check this, here’s Paddy responding to DmcW views on leaving the euro.


      “This is really just populist tripe.”

      So you know DmcW hasn’t reduced Ireland’s problems to a matter of dealing with Anglo bonds.

      Seems you are sticking the head in the sand again, blindly fixated on your own fantasy, a remnant of populist tripe in FF and the present coalition that has us in the mess we are in. You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, but less of the lying innuendo in your posts, please!

  3. Deco

    Things are bad when the EU leadership makes dithering Bertie look decisive….

  4. Deco

    No more Marxism for Multi-Billionaires.

    The fear game engendered by the media has been sussed….

  5. Malcolm McClure

    David says ‘In the face of crisis, the Continent’s position has been denial.’ –But in reality the continent doesn’t have a position. –In the face of crisis, every individual in the continent attempts to maintain a position that will cause him the least harm.

    Although its called the European Community, there is absolutely no sense of community in Europe. The eurocrats’ main concern is not whether the EC is a viable arrangement, only that its demise would mean the end of their lucrative jobs and expense accounts. The EC ideal must therefore be rescued at all costs. The penny hasn’t dropped yet that the EC is the cause of the problem and has no hope of becoming part of a solution.

    Diversity, not uniformity has formed the basis for survival in western society for thousands of years. If uniformity were better, diversity in culture and language would have been eliminated long ago. The success of the British army for centuries was based on its diversity of regiments, each with its own culture.

    Let’s celebrate our diversity and pension off euseless eurocrats, who have always contrived to make our lives more complicated and politically correct.

    • wills


      So the essence of the *crisis* reveals itself to be in the excesses of individuals inhabiting the halls of power in EU.

      Beyond politics, beyond economics, just, plain old pettiness of vanities!!

    • dwalsh

      Maggie Thatcher’s decree; there’s no such thing as society just lots of individuals looking out for themselves. Not everyone sees it that way believe it or not; nor is it a coherent doctrine.

      Our success as a species and as individuals is founded on social diversity. That is, diversity in solidarity. What you represent here is neoliberal Darwinian alienation.

      • Malcolm McClure

        Everyone is in favour of ‘Society’ in the good times when the benefits outweigh the costs, but, as I was careful to distinguish, “In the face of crisis, every individual in the continent attempts to maintain a position that will cause him the least harm.”

        The basic law of survival in a crisis is a perfectly coherent doctrine: it is ‘Minimize your personal exposure to danger.’ Once you have done that you can look around for others to help. Alienation in this context is a complete red herring.
        Neoliberal and Darwinian are jargon concepts that you throw in for good measure without understanding either.

    • coldblow


      I tend to agree with you on the pc and the bureaucracy and that they are protecting their own jobs. The pc is probably more a reflection of public opinion than a cause, or more accurately of the opinions of our licensed preachers.

      EC as cause of the problem? No, I don’t think so, not in the wider context. There was a very irate journalist from the Telegraph on Newsnight last night, attacking the ex editor of the FT over his support for British entry into the EMU a few years ago. Paxman was enjoying it and just let it run on, and he used some direct unparliamentary language to the EU rep too. (They wouldn’t do that here – too cagey – only if they find someone isolated and driven into a corner do they indulge themselves in the rhetoric of pious indignation.) Hutton always supported the euro project and saw it (among other things) as the only way for middle-sized powers to defend/operate their currencies in modern financial market conditions and to stand up to the Anglo-US financial horde.

      Diversity vs uniformity is just guesswork? Don’t think I’ve come across it put that way in my perusal of world history. I’m a great fan of linguistic diverstiy myself, but I never saw any evidence that many out there agreed with me and I’ve always assumed it’s just a matter of time before it’s all ironed out. The German army was presumably homogenous and they did well – for a while. Romans, Ottomans used mercenaries. I suppose your guess is as good as anyone’s. Certainly, as Crotty describes it, the small communities living in clearings in the forests of western Europe some thouseands of years ago, dependant on capital (seed, draught animals, tools), developed, eventually, into the most economically vigorous society ever seen.

      I did a short course 4 years ago in the IPA or somewhere in Dublin, about govt agencies. I got into conversation with the tutor who had spent some years working in the Commission in Brussels or Strasbourg. He was very committed to the EU project, an idealist.

      Mind you, I always used to vote against Europe in Irish referendums, more as a protest against our own elites’ support, but not just that.

      • Malcolm McClure

        Coldblow: Back in the 80s my father hoped that entering the EU would help solve the problem of intercommunal strife in Northern Ireland. I think that it did play a role in that, by providing loans and subsidies that raised living standards in the South sufficiently to diminish Unionists’ fear that they would all be subsumed in Irish poverty and unemployment, which then was very real.

        I saw the newsnight progamme you mention and agree with the woman on the right, who saw the vote today as inserting the thin end of the wedge.

        I’m afraid I agree with whoever said about the EU and the Euro that you can’t unscramble an omlette even though it contains a bad egg. All we can do is agree with the Curate that ‘It’s good in parts’.

  6. “if Mr Noonan walked away from paying the next tranche of Anglo bondholders, the market in Ireland would rally”.

    While I would agree with the refusal to pay non guaranteed non assumed private debt to reckless bond issuers regardless of the threats from ECB and EU Powers, there is little evidence to suggest with certainty that the markets would rally on such a move. Any radical move such as this is likely to cause short term upheaval but a better position long term, obviously all this private debt should not have been guaranteed and put on the the Irish public Account and even if Noonan was to do it, it would be a small relief comparing of the many billions already repaid but there is little certainty that the immediate result of such a move would be so positive surely.

  7. Merkel, Sarkozy will only make a bold decision when calamity is the other immediate alternative, if there is road to kick they will continue to kick as they have done, only on the eve of calamity do they act.

    They also only act in a way that is to the best interest of their banks and their sovereign account, they do not act with the interest of the EMU as a whole, if they did imposing all their own banks private debt on the periphery would not have happened and it is not out of concern that they may improve the conditions but out of the the economic threat that such a cavalier and unjust policy is gradually imposing on them, they act at the last minute and exclusively in their own interest regardless of the dire consequences on other EMU members, our “European Partners” will continue to kick the can and it would appear they have not run out of road to do so yet

  8. With continued excess in the Irish public current account there is room for further austerity, yes it will affect growth but if concentrated on waste ( over 100 employees of Irish Third Level earn over 200k per annum) and not on the most vulnerable, the impact on growth and on society will be lessened. Once we pay our own current costs with our own income, we are free albeit poor and in a “European Partnership” as it is we need to escape our dependence for day to day costs on such “Partners” asap.

  9. dwalsh

    Interesting short article re the wealth of the state supported Greek Orthodox Church…

    • Deco

      Maybe G-Sucks can get the Greek Orthodox Church as collateral for more loans to prop up the value of existing loans….to G Sucks ???

    • coldblow

      It’s short but rather than ‘interesting’ I’d call it ‘bad’. France 24 came up with this gold, eh? Must deselect from my satellite box.

      • dwalsh

        Hi coldblow

        I would be interested to know why you say that.

        • coldblow

          Well, it’s a very short piece but disjointed stylistically, as if it’s a rough cut and paste of a longer article. Or maybe that’s just how it was written. But it’s the motives of France 24 that interest me: here’s a handy way to attack Greece for corruption and get in a bit of anti-clericalism on the side. The Pope has been described as the richest man in the world. When I was teaching in Bishops Stortford one pupil’s exam paper had Bishops Stortford as the capital of Paris, and he thought the River Seine was the River Stort. Or again, Westlife may have been described as the best band in the world. How much land does the Church own in France? In Germany? Etc. Why did the Telegraph publish it? Was the editor asleep?

  10. Adam Byrne



    Ireland’s debt total is due to rise to €203bn by 2015

    Including NAMA

    Our debt levels are rising higher than our economic output, so they are impossible to sustain.

    Read the comments. That’s what we the people think of Mr Noonan’s deranged policy on banking and Irish monetary policy.

    This is simple.

    We don’t want no more loans!

    We negotiate a debt write down of Irish debt re Irish banks and ‘bailout’ debt given to us by the Troika and the ECB.

    Base this on what we can pay back.

    No play?

    OK, we’re out of the EMU( take this as Step One if you believe as I do the above step is redundant).

    Now we do an Iceland based on national insolvency. We default and write down the debt, what can be repaid, what cannot or wont be repaid.

    We clean the slate. We demonstrate to the markets we’re fit for business. Yes, there will be austerity.

    But we’ll take it on the chin. If the above happens, the government will be supported by the people.

    If it doesn’t, the government will be a laughing stock.

    It will take the above to stop me laughing at the gombeen quissling peacock strutting delusional second rate agents of the Sheriff of Nottingham ECB who’ve dismantled this country’s sovereignty….

    EMU has broken the mandate of the EU whose principles enshrined economic and political and fiscal independence into the membership of member states.Lets out of the EMU.

    Our chiefs have turned into hankerchiefs:)

    Watch them in public as they wipe our noses in it!

    Get the printing presses rolling!

    The alternative is to line up with the other peripherals at the ECB unemployment office and wait in turn for handouts.

  12. What you say makes absolute sense David.
    However, if there is an orderly default by the worst of the PIIGS, will the markets begin to lend to any government like Ireland that is borrowing more than it earns-and will continue to borrow more than it earns after an orderly default- to pay for the public sector wage bill?

  13. piombo

    Whilst thought-provoking, I would pose the following question. If default was a favourable option, why was it not employed up to now? My tuppence worth is:
    a) The Greek default will occur by driving that country into free fall even if they remain within the Euro and mass emigration will allow labour Market pricing to ease in Germany, The Netherlands and Austria;
    b) Greece has no Foreign Direct Investment nor Financial Industry to defend, in other words, they can go to hell in a hand basket as far as Foreign investors care;
    c) Were Ireland attempt to default, FDI and the IFSC would have about five business days. Please let us not kid ourselves with the Irish disaspora coming to the rescue, we are not Israel;
    d) Ireland is viewed as compliant so far and has a lot more arrows to shoot. I mentioned these in previous emails (increased taxation, reduced state spending through lower salaries, asset sales);
    e) Debt default is not short term in resolution. It can take decades. Just look at Argentina, just today on Bloomberg, we had news of the US objecting to the Argentinians attempts to re-enter the bond Market as the US is still not happy with the terms offered from the 2002 default, and finally;
    f) Ireland is technically solvent until the ESM kicks in June 2013, why should we default now?

    • a) Currently the kernel of official policy is not to allow Greek Default. There is no question of changes to EFSF especially with leveraging of allowing for Greece to wipe out 50% of its debt. The whole intent is to protect French/German and ultimately US banks from the default threat posed by Greece.

      b) See a) above

      c) FDI is often used in the way you do to scare us. But this is also a canard. You could quite easily make the argument the euro is too expensive a currency and is destroying FDI in Ireland. Look at the leakage of jobs in their thousands to other cheap labour markets e.g. China over the past number of weeks.

      Ironically, in a previous post, you mention a stipulation of bailout for Ireland will be insistence Ireland increase its CT to 20%. Out of the euro, we could drop it to 8%. Finally, there is no reason to believe that other benefits fall to FDI locating in Ireland; companies could actually be attracted be attracted to a stable environment with a decent way of life and environment.

      Often the FDI argument brings out these arguments based on low self esteem. Surely the biggest reason FDI should be taken off the table somewhat in this debate is the very clear danger that tax laws in the US will close the CT loopholes and force multi nationals to declare income via the US tax system.

      e) Lets look at Argentina, then, this is a particularly bad example on your part. Default has actually worked for Argentina improving general levels of employment and standard of living and has rescued the country from the ravages of the IMF and debt seekers.

      f) The reason we should default is that while we are ‘technically solvent’ in actuality we are totally insolvent living on handouts. Our ¢250bn in debt realistically cannot be paid back. We are at the absurd stage of never talking about paying it back, merely will we get more loans in order to feed this debt. We should listen to the markets. We need to deal with this debt. The markets don’t want reassurance that we will be given more loans to feed the debt, they want us to write it down.

      Do we wish to be a protectorate of the EMU with no need for a parliament; or do we want an independent free state?

      Lots more arguments but a few pointers above only can do for now.

  14. wills

    Malcolm’s post closes the articles circle I reckon.

  15. dwalsh

    Interesting article from David as always.

    Some thoughts

    David’s argument as to the Market’s response to rumours of Greek default focuses on one of my fundamental disagreements with him. The notion that we should be directed in our policies and decisions by the Markets; i.e. that the tail should wag the dog.

    The financial markets are irrational. They pursue short-term profits; not long-term political stability or social development. Just as they have no memory they have no vision other than end-of-trading bottom lines.

    “We need a massive change at the highest level in Europe to rescue the situation and this demands facing up to the world as it is, not to the world as we would like it to be”

    This is one of the few passages in David’s article that I can agree with. However, Michael Noonan unilaterally not paying Anglo bondholders is not the change we need; nor is it the level at which we need the change.

    The Anglo bondholders are most likely other European banks. All the European banks are interlinked by debt obligations. If the process of default begins in unilateral actions on the periphery it is only a matter of time before there would be a cascade of defaults into the heart of Europe; and a general collapse of the banking system.

    In a way that might be good, in that it would force the ostriches to get their heads out of their asses and sort things out. But there would be massive public losses and hardship for our populations which would not be good.

    The right way to default on the unsupportable private banking debts, including the derivatives which are the covert cause of the crisis, is to do it from the centre out. That requires political decision and social vision at the highest level.

    In my opinion we need a decision in favour of humanity; and a vision of a new integrated European (and global) system that is rational and humane. Naturally that involves a complete restructuring of the monetary and financial systems.

    At this time of global financial war a question we should all be considering is this: do we want rule by democratic government; or rule by the Market? Should our political and social policies be dictated by the elites who control the Market or by public mandate?

    This is the deeper question underlying these matters.

    • BrianC

      Yes you hit the nail on the head. The issue here now is who runs the show the politicians or the bankers.

      The Germans need to step back and see the big picture. Hans Udo Dieter Angela Petra Gretel needs to understand that bailouts are really extortion loans demanding tributes beyond the means of the forced borrower. And when forced to pay beyond their means they will not be able to purchase German manufactured goods. So Hans Udo et al need to decide if they really favour the tail and if they do and demand austerity then their dole queues will lenghten drasitically.

      Barroso’s first salvo of taxing financial institutions 0.1% on all financial transactions has gone down like a lead balloon in Britain and the square mile is getting queasy looking at the thin edge of the wedge. The colours are on the mast now and some politicians may be squaring up to bankers.

      • dwalsh

        Let us hope you are right. The politicians are the only people with access to the power to square up to the bankers. Let us hope they will…before it’s too late.

        • transitionman

          Agree with you that the enemy is the bankers / markets. However it will not be the politicians who will square up to the bankers but the people. When political parties pander for the popularity contest of getting power they try to represent the labels that will gain the votes. Left or right conservative or liberal no longer apply when Debt becomes the only issue. A “Debtors” party is now the rallying call of opposition to governments. There is mortgage default happening in households and the banks have no answer. The depositors across Europe are looking for safety for their savings. Bank runs have occurred. As deflation continues on its spiral more default is inevitable. Eventually the people will simply stop paying even those who can because the tide of debt is too great to pay. Crunch the numbers on mortgage repayments of 400 million a month not being paid to our zombie debt collecting banks.

    • American Civil War

      Which came first : ‘ the chicken or the egg ‘ ?

      Lets put it this way : Did the American Civil War arrive first or was it The Federal Reserve ?

      Lets look at Europe : The EU has no Federal Reserve .

      The Question I ask is : What is the EU version of The American Civil War ? Is it over or has it yet to start ?

      • CitizenWhy

        American Civil War early 1860s. Federal Reserve created in 1913.

        It seems to me that Europe has been at war with itself throughout its history, WWII just the latest. Europe’s enduring theme/contradiction was played out in the Greek play “Antigone.” The opening word or phrase in Greek plays/epics sets the theme. In the Antigone it is “Koinon,” meaning common, that is of common blood, but also “the common” as in the common good, the government. The word is normally translated, correctly, as sister, but the need to choose one translation disguises its double meaning. Which do you choose to be loyal to? Blood ties, clan, nationality? Or a common government/laws above blood ties? In the play, both sides – Antigone’s insistence on the primacy of blood ties, Creon’s on the primacy of the state – push to an extreme, mass death resulting. Europe, in crisis, reverts to blood. Witness Germany in the Euro crisis.

        • Praetorian

          It was ‘European integration’ by military force, the Romans, Napoleon, Hitler etc. Over 2000 years of slaughter at one time or another, as one commentator pointed out, with the advent of nuclear weapons Europeans knew the next time they went to war it would probably be the last.

        • dwalsh


          Thank you for that intriguing insight.

    • @dwalsh

      “We need a massive change at the highest level in Europe to rescue the situation and this demands facing up to the world as it is, not to the world as we would like it to be”

      Here’s a look into who was involved in setting up the Federal Reserve in 1913.

      * Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin
      * Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris
      * Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy
      * Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Germany and Amsterdam
      * Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York
      * Lehman Brothers Bank of New York
      * Goldman Sachs Bank of New York
      * Chase Manhattan Bank of New York (Controlled By the Rockefeller Family Tree)

      Here’s a look into who was involved in setting up the Federal Reserve in 1913.

      * Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin
      * Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris
      * Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy
      * Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Germany and Amsterdam
      * Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York
      * Lehman Brothers Bank of New York
      * Goldman Sachs Bank of New York
      * Chase Manhattan Bank of New York (Controlled By the Rockefeller Family Tree)

      And now the same will commence The EU Federal Reserve ( delete Lehman Bros and replace it with The Bank of China ).

      Abraham Lincoln became a great Leader in the aftermath of The American Civil War .Is that what it takes for EU to have a great leader too ?

      • What was the central theme that was fought about during The American Civil War ? Was it Slavery ?

        Is Austerity the same as ‘ Debt Slavery ?

        Did various members of families fight on both sides and kill each other?

        Will this happen again ? Does ‘ insiders and outsiders ‘ cause division within families?

        What goes round comes round .

        • CitizenWhy

          The ordinary good Protestant farm boys and urban soldier, and their officers, enlisted to fight slavery, or at least to fight the slave states in the hope that their defeat would end slavery. The northern Protestant ministry had been preaching that slavery was a sin making America displeasing to God. But the official federal government’s (Lincoln’s) position was that the war was not about slavery but about saving the Union. Slavery continued to be legally practiced in the slave states that stayed with the Union. And the fugitive slave law – that the federal govt must return slaves who ran away to free states to their slave owners – was enforced. As each Southern state seceded, however, the secession documents cited the need to save the slavery and the sacred rights of property, as the cause. Later the official Southern propaganda was that the War was about states’ rights. But that claim is not supported by the secession documents.

          Only later did Lincoln decide to make emancipation a policy. In many ways his hand was forced by a weird development. Some slaves along the border were fleeing to Union camps and forts. Their owners approached the commanders to demand their property back, since slavery in the slave states was still the law of the North. A cynical NY lawyer, having bought a commander post, did not like the arrogance of the slave holders who approached him and refused to return the slaves precisely because they were chattel property, in fact property necessary to the pursuit of the war on the part of the South. As a result he legally could seize the slaves as “contraband” and he refused to return them. This caused a media sensation and for a long time fleeing slaves, now greatly increased in number, were called “contraband.”

          Yes, border area families were split and some brothers fought for the North and others for the South.

          • Praetorian

            Slavery wasn’t just a Southern issue, it was present in the North as well, and it was HUGE business, prior to the battle at Gettysburg (1-3 July, 1863), it was worth more to the US economy than all the railroads, all the factories and all the banks of North and South combined. At the time it amounted to more than $3.5 billion.

            As you correctly stated the war was not initially about slavery but that issue did come to the fore as the war grinded on, ‘emancipation’ was a useful means of undermining the already crippled southern economy. Ironically, despite emancipation, the lives of former slaves did not improve as might have been expected while in the 20th century African-Americans saw their lives criminalised, pushed to the margins, working in tough conditions, today the often quoted statistic of ‘more African-Americans in the US prison-industrial system than in university’ speaks of that continued criminalisation despite the existence of a African-American middle class. I suspect when it comes to the death penalty there are a disproportionate number of African-Americans put to death, with the most recent example being the dreadful case of Troy Davis in the state of Georgia who was executed by lethal injection last week.

            The United States Census of 1860 gives a picture of the overall 1860 population of the states that joined the Confederacy.

            Total Population (Total number of Slaves)

            Alabama 964,201 (435,080)

            Arkansas 435,450 (111,115)

            Florida 140,424 (61,745)

            Georgia 1,057,286 (462,198)

            Louisiana 708,002 (331,726)

            Mississippi 791,305 (436,631)

            North Carolina 992,622 (331,059)

            South Carolina 703,708 (402,406)

            Tennessee 1,109,801 (275,719)

            Texas 604,215 (182,566)

            Virginia 1,596,318 (865 201)

      • dwalsh

        Hi John ALLEN

        I have argued here that something like the Federal Reserve, at a global level and not just European, is where the super elites will want this go. A global central banking system under private control; masquerading, as the Fed does, as a governmental central bank.

        @ Praetorian & CitizenWhy

        Thanks for that seminar on US slavery.

        As I understand; the philosopher John Locke played a major role in setting-up the Afro- American slave trade.

        The abandonment of slavery in America was also propelled by the industrial revolution and the recognition by Capital of the need of a waged consumer population to drive it…the American Dream…which I would argue is now being dismantled…by Capital.

        Some say that Lincoln was assasinated by Capital – the bankers – for daring to create sovereign money. This was a mortal threat to the power of Capital that could not be permitted.

        In my view sovereign money is the only legitimate money.

      • tony_murphy

        we don’t need the eu.

        the americans need to sort out their government

        the global elites need to the face justice for crimes against humanity

  16. Praetorian

    Yes, because we are in such dire need of the market’s approval having being so utterly ripped off first time around.

    National governments are trying to protect their domestic banks exposure, they want an enlarged facility to cover the inevitable loses from default(s), financial class pay for elections.

    Politicians doing what politicians do, lying to all but sooner or later the cookie has to crumble. Remember a lot of these people were telling us there was no need for bailouts, no need to recapitalise the banks, no need for defaults, no need for….if you want truth don’t look to the parliaments, ironically, look to the trading floor.

    If I was a Libyan I’d be very concerned about deposits held in European banks and other assets.

  17. CitizenWhy

    According to the Catholic Church, “excess accumulation of wealth by a few” is a mortal sin (revised list of seven deadly sins, 2008). Does that mean the USA is the anti-Christ?

  18. dwalsh

    Why should a financially bankrupted European Union determine its actions on the basis of the fleeting whims of the morally bankrupted financial markets that are waging war on it?

    Sounds like Stockholm syndrome to me.

  19. Teeeving Experience

    I live in a countryside area and had unwanted visitors to my home at 11.45 am last week on a monday during which time no one was at home …well they are not suppose to be in this ‘working family culture’ we now live in .

    Anyway this thug broke down the front door and made an entry after he tirlessly rang the door bell incessantly non stop ……….which happened to wake up my son who was having a late sleep …..~~~~~

    Anyway , he quickly realised what had happened and made as much noise as he could up stairs and ran down and scared the thief who ran down the driveway to a waiting car at the entrance with an acomplice .My son ran after him in his underpants and bare feet and caught up with the car that managed to speed away and was noticed by other neighbours up the road .

    Since then more robberies have occured in the parish and goods stolen .

    Is this a war footing we all now must factor in ?

    • Very sorry your family had to go through with that. Eircom phonewatch, purchase a decent mobile phone with a good camera, get neighbours to cooperate and call each other, if they see anything suspicious, maybe just take down a reg number with time noted for future reference, no guns but a baseball bat or similar. Sounds like you have a brave lad there!

      • Praetorian

        Crime always rises in tough economic times, Ireland is in a very tough spot so I can only imagine what could potentially come down the track, already seen increased reports of violent attacks in Post offices, some customers assaulted in one, people hospitalised etc, not good.

    • Is this a war footing we all now must factor in ?


      Sorry to hear that, such experiences are distressing. Fwiw, I would strongly suggest to tell your son to loose his ‘Bruce Willis attitude’, and never again pull such a stunt, or he is well trained and armed at the same time to deal with such a situation.

      The threshold for violent reactions is getting much lower, and he easily could have caught a bullet.

      Sorry to by that blunt, I mean well.

    • coldblow


      My wife’s aunt’s pub in Co. Cork was broken into in the early hours about three nights ago. They smashed in the outer door and left the sledgehammer behind. The Guards arrived after 15 mins.


      “no guns but a baseball bat or similar”

      You never lost it.

    • dwalsh

      Sorry to hear of your trouble John.

      I hope you wont mind if I suggest that pursuit of these thugs is not wise…especially in underpants!


    Crap, I can’t speak German, live debate here

    “- The Bundestag will start debating the EFSF expansion at 9am CET (8am BST)
    - Voting is expected to begin at 11am CET (10am BST)
    - The EU summit in Warsaw is taking place all day
    - Eurozone consumer confidence data is released at 11am CET (10am BST)
    - Revised US second-quarter GDP is released at 8.30am EST (1.30BST)!”

    “Clegg will warn of serious implications if Britain’s role is downgraded by greater integration by eurozone countries.

    He will say: “We cannot accept arrangements that would privilege the eurozone as a decision-making body over the European council. That is the surest way to rupture our union, undermining the huge strides that have been taken to secure cooperation between us, allowing walls to spring up even though we spent years knocking them down.

    “The problem is if the economic crisis deepens the fault lines between our nations … if it tears us apart.”

    We need to say goodbye to the Euro, its over, Merkel might scrape through, but he wider vote on leveraging the €440 bn bailout is still to be done.

    Are German MP’s being fully informed on the antics of their banking industry over the last decade. They’ve been at the casino and LOST big time. Would you give this crowd another €2.5 trillion to play with and FAIL BETTER.


    €2.5 trillion is approx 5% of total world debt. I suspect this is a way for the debt merchants to launder debt onto the EMU books, debt that would otherwise pull down the dollar.

    Get the printing presses ready.

    • I confess that the above is ideologically driven. I’m against socialism for the banks and through them dictatorship and socialism for the peoples of Europe.

      I believe in free market capitalism: Abraham Lincoln “Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth.”

      • Great every MP in the Bundestag gets their view heard, Goldman Sachs must be cringing, few there they couldn’t pay off!

        • Some notes from guardian website:

          “Schäuble also promised lawmakers that all changes to the fund would have to be approved by parliament.

          The EFSF expansion must be approved by national parliaments before it comes into law. Some have already given the green light (most recently Finland, on Wednesday). Austria votes on Friday, but some countries won’t give their verdict until next month.

          “A quick reminder about what the German vote is all about. Under the rescue plan agreed on 21 July, the European financial stability facility (EFSF) will be expanded to €440bn. It will also be given the power to make ‘precautionary’ loans to eurozone companies who are struggling to borrow from the financial markets, and also buy up sovereign debt under certain circumstances.

          In practice, this will increase Germany’s contribution to the bailout fund from €123bn to €211bn. Polling suggests that three-quarters of Germans oppose enlarging the EFSF.”"

          voting ends approx 30 minutes

          • Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government persuaded the German parliament to enlarge the EFSF. Photograph: Thomas Peter/Reuters
            11.13am: Here’s the voting details:

            In favour: 523 MPs
            Against: 85
            Abstentions: 3

            So, a huge majority for Angela Merkel. We’ll get the full breakdown of who voted, and whether many of the coalition government rebelled, soon.

            …above from guardian business blog

          • Dorothy Jones

            Interesting artice in FAZ on Mon proposing that S&P could downgrade Germany if the EFSF is expanded:

            FAZ 26. September 2011
            Ratingagentur warnt vor Ausweitung des Rettungsfonds
            Deutschlands Bonität steht auf dem Spiel
            Wenige Tage vor der Abstimmung im Bundestag über eine mögliche Aufstockung des Rettungsschirms EFSF warnt die Ratingagentur Standard & Poor’s, dass sich eine Aufstockung negativ auf die Kreditwürdigkeit Deutschlands auswirken könne.
            Von Markus Frühauf, Manfred Schäfers und Werner Mussler

            What if?

          • @Dorothy,

            Re “What if?”

            No question about it, this is the slippery slope leading to downgrade for the euro itself!

            Look at the expansion of debt in the US, its happening there with its downgrade.

            This leveraged bailout is an impailment of the euro, a bailout of banks and financial services, at the expense of democracy.

            Its basically handing over the keys to democracy to a new bankocracy without any agenda to build social services answerable to the democratic wishes of the people.

            This will lead to greater unpredictable and chaotic economic effects, bubbles, corruption, incompetence, mismanagement, and a new society of bureaucratic greed and profiteering financial services to the fore.

            The alcoholic banks and financial services are getting refueled and its party on time again:)

          • Malcolm McClure

            Colm, with respect: Could you please clarify whether when you use the expression ‘impailment of the euro’, you mean impalement or impairment?

          • coldblow


            I was wondering about that on another post yesterday. I thought it was something to do with buckets. But then again he once described Naipaul as ‘torpid’ so it’s anyone’s guest actuarily.

          • @coldblow,


            perhaps coldblow doesn’t know the meaning of torpid, the

            “1. Deprived of the power of motion or feeling; benumbed. 2. Dormant; hibernating. 3. Lethargic; apathetic.”

            I’m on the side of the large body of criticism of his works. Plus there’s a big stench from his personal life treating (abusing) his wife of 41 yrs abominably.

            I’d say he was a haughty snot arse, a bit like coldblow in his post here. Lol

            @ Malcolm,

            Good catch there, my spelling of impailment incorrect, should be ‘impalement’ as you suggest. Yes, I was referring to its dictionary meaning and applying the metaphor to the term ‘bailout’:


            a. To pierce with a sharp stake or point.
            b. To torture or kill by impaling.
            2. To render helpless as if by impaling.

          • @Dorothy,

            Your German there deserves translation here, Google translate:

            “Germany’s creditworthiness is at stake
            A few days before the vote in parliament on the possible increase of the bailout EFSF warns the rating agency Standard & Poor’s, that an increase could negatively affect the creditworthiness of Germany.
            Mark Fruehauf, Manfred Schäfers and Werner Mussler”

            Note though it appears Merkel won by a big majority, in fact she was only a handful of votes away from the quota she needed to avoid losing public face . This time they capitulated with warnings 2/3 of them would lose their seats if this didn’t go through.

            But there are many votes ahead. Plus these bailouts expose Germany to large losses ahead. In order for the ¢2.5 trillion bailout to work, Germany would have to have an EMU that works on similar lines to the US under the Fed.

            The Germans should remember how the German Fleet had to be scuttled in 1919 at Scapa Flow. There are lots of dodgy vessels in its fleet now.

          • coldblow

            Colm I know what torpid means. I thought you meant turgid. Neither applies to Naipaul. Neither does whinger or whiner apply to him, Fennell or that Hedges (?) fellow you applied it to yesterday. If you feel the need to name-call and to police the blog you’ll have to expect a reaction. If you want me to back up any of the above I’ll oblige.

            I find you an enthusiastic supporter of conventional thinking. Nothing wrong with that, I sometimes agree with you, but it has its limitations. Each to their own.

          • @coldblow,

            Err, no thanks wth the policing offer, I’ll leave that to you, you’ve apparently arrogated that function to yourself. Your attacking me under the guise of playing the victim and pretending I’m attacking you plus Naipaul.

            Fair enough, go for it. I better shut up, I’m beginning to sound like Paddy.

            Anyways, lets call an armistice.

            My background in lieterture may have given me some bad name-calling habits:

            I particularly like the Ass-Head one hear:


            As they say, in one hear, out the other:)

            We should all try to avoid troll remarks:)

            I’ll try to be better! Great to hear from you anyways that my views are conventional.

            Must be making some headway then:)

          • dwalsh

            Hear-hear coldblow

            “I find you an enthusiastic supporter of conventional thinking”

            spot-on…I would add: a very able and well informed suporter…who sometimes slips into minor troll-like infractions.

            Sorry CB couldn’t resist it. I guess I slip a bit too. All in jest.

          • coldblow

            Ok Colm, either that or we go for a divorce.

            Just to add that a point I wanted to make about Naipaul is that he seems to be in the black book over certain of his views. The criticism he attracts over his personal life is, it seems, just cover to attack him for these other sins.

          • coldblow


            Colm is obviously an extravert. Extraverts deal with the given reality. That’s why David says stuff like: that’s how the world works, that’s just how things are, etc. The world is what it is so what’s your problem? Intraverts approach matters from the the other end: does this make sense? What is the meaning of this? Both are right and neither.

            In my observation extraverts are those who enforce the rules of behaviour. They find it hard to accept why anyone would refuse, after all rules are rules and so objectors are just being objectionable. Have you noticed how people who are wild in their youth often become stiff and starchy about certain things when they grow older: wear a seatbelt, don’t drink, don’t take a disable parking space, don’t swear etc. I have seen those who become ageing hippies, but even here if you look closely they adhere strictly to whatever rules are in place for their anarchy. Or younger ones might dye their hair orange or become punks – but in their way it’s all utterly, predictably conventional. The endearing thing is that they are convinced that they are being so daring. Image is vital.

            If you consider modern liberal attitudes for example, extraverts take them as a given. What is there to discuss? So, in David’s Generation Game he deals with the liberal (or ‘liberal’ as I think of it) victory in Ireland’s Culture Wars in one sentence: They were right and they won. If you question any of this, even just raise the issue, they get uncomfortable because you are pulling the ground from under their whole worldview.

            I find they tend to be the preachers and the enforcers. I amuse myself by wondering what people would be doing if they were alive 60 years ago: probably preaching from the altar or writing furious letters to the Irish Press denouncing the latest women’s fashions.

            According to Dorothy Rowe, honesty for them is one of the things seen as an optional extra in life. Don’t blame me, I didn’t write that. She also says that this always comes as a surprise to them. Intraverts have always known who they are.

            I said I wouldn’t revisit this subject, but there, you dragged it out of me.

            Extraverts. Can’t live with ‘em, can’t live without ‘em.

        • Deco

          Of course the real problem for G-Sucks is that the level of democracy and debate about the issue that has arisen, might cause taxpayers in countries that are usually driven into these deals with a shotgun to stop and think.

          In particular, when I think about the way the US was pushed into the TARP bailout, or the way Flash Gordon signed the British people up to the hidden and unknown liabilities of RBoS, and the like.

  21. george

    It’s worth reading the excellent article that Paul Cullen wrote about Iceland’s transformation, published last Saturday in The Irish Times.

    They transform themselves from “ruin to role model” doing exactly the opposite the Irish Government plan to do as a result of the banking crisis and the financial meltdown.

    In Paul Cullen’s words: “The Icelandic Government opted to make the required adjustment by raising taxes and half by cutting spending, in contrast to our own Government’s preference for spending cuts over tax increases. Iceland has increased income tax, and VAT, has increased Corporation Tax from 12% to 20 %, and has introduced a wealth tax. They pulled the plugs on the Banks but before the Government brought in laws making bank depositors priority creditors. A debt-forgiveness scheme was introduced and loans were written off were they exceeded 110 per cent of a house’s value. So a person who borrowed the equivalent of 500.000 to buy a house that the halved in value could potentially have $ 225.000 of the mortgage written off.”

    And while we had to pay our “self-proclaimed patriots” lump sums and golden hand shakes, they are bringing the politicians and civil servants that failed to act in the benefit of the Country to Court.

    • Deco

      Ireland is the reverse – “we must copperfasten our reputation”.

      And that we have surely done. As a people with SFA self respect, or collective guts. Obsession with the superficial, has screwed up people in the real dimension of trying to have ordinary decent lives, with the essentials of everyday provision….

  22. rebean

    The bottom line with all thats going on in Europe is that we have Germany who wanted to be at the helm of a new Europe and the project was not managed properly.The Germans are a different breed of individual than the Irish or the Greeks. There is a real honesty amoung the Germanic cultures that does not exist in Greece or Ireland. The Germans thought everyone was like them hardworking and honest. Look at the gobshites running this country managing the vacuam that the British state left behind. I had an argument about Fine Fail with a relation of mine recently. He lives in Leitrim and he lost his business during the flood a couple of winters ago. I told him that Fine Fail were in power for 15 years and 80 over the course of the last 100 and the Shannon had not been drained. I told him that the British always drained the rivers here. He told me that Fine Fail were great and he said I was a blueshirt. I said that thats civil war politics and thats why we are in the mess we are in. I am no longer Fine Gael either because they dont have the balls for the hard decisions. WE need a real party in this country to manage with honesty and fairness.We are wasting our time with the old ways we can never move on. All these economic landmines we are facing cannot be addressed until we have the bottle to close Anglo Irish bank and Nama and show the Germans we mean business. Lets be ruthless with the bondholders and the unions.As David Mcwilliams pointed out in a recent interview lets get a chinese bank in here and lets start doing business with them.We need to ruffle a few feathers around the place. I dont think Enda Kenny has the guts to close Nama now that he is in power though he spent long enough moaning and groaning when it was been debated in Dail Eireann.By the way has anyone seen Labour lately?

  23. THE PERMANENT PIPELINE, Part 1 – Germany voted YES!

    Just briefly, the vote asked for an expansion of the EFSF, Germany voted yes. – Btw. a parliamentary vote for the second part of the pipeline, voting for ‘the valve’, for the ESM is planned for 01/12 -

    I would urge everyone to do their own research to find out what implications the combination of EFSF and ESM means for the future.

    The proposed mechanism is not designed to help the people of our nations, it is not designed to safe the Euro, it is not designed to end this crisis. On the contrary.

    It is designed as an airbag for the financial industry and gamblers and super rich, or to stick with my original analogy, it is designed to act as a permanent pipeline that has a valve that can be operated by an organization that is unaccountable and immune against all laws.

    So what does that mean?

    Since 2008 Banksters succeeded to blackmail governments into committing taxpayers money to cover their private losses. At the same time, no substantial results were achieved by politics to stop the gambling in the parasitic economy.

    The vested interest groups who represent the parasitic economy succeeded through their lobby power, blackmail, and other means to establish a permanent pipeline that is designed to allow taxpayers money to be stolen at all times, whenever they see fit.

    This is the Europe of their making, a Europe of CEO’s and Banks with umbilically connected politicians that act on their behalf. A political Europe of captured and spineless career civil servants. A Europe that has been captured by the overwhelming and unhealthy representation of the right wing and reactionary EPP, the European Peoples Party, dominating all three institution, Commission, Council, and Parliament. A one tier political Europe that is the product and design of Lobby power.

    This pipeline is not only an instrument of financial totalitarianism, it is much more than only an instrument to redistribute wealth from the people to the hedge funds, banks, investors and super rich.

    Resistance no longer is only an option, it no longer is only a worthy considerations, it is the ethical duty of those who understand the events unfolding.

    • Dorothy Jones

      Georg; further to your post, some quotes below[sic]:


      Austrian newspaper Der Standard has some thoughts on the politically sensitive issue of increasing the EFSF, the European bailout fund, via S&P:

      ”A strengthening of the euro rescue package could lead to euro-zone countries being targeted by Standard & Poor’s, the ratings agency advised. The sundry alternatives for reforming the EFSF bailout facility could affect credit ratings, S&P expert David Beers said on Sunday. This could also be the case with Germany and France.”

      -EFSF-Aufstockung könnte Länderratings belasten:

      ‘Germany’s ability and willingness to pay will decrease as the economy falters.Germany is more indebted than Spain and has also long been in violation the Maastricht Treaty’s stability and growth pact provision on government debt to GDP. Germany is not a ‘paragon of fiscal probity’ nor is it a “rock to which all other shipwrecked European economies must turn in their hour of need”. Germany is also a country that is ageing and, hence, dependent on exports for economic growth. Germany too has limited resources. And this is important to note since Germany as a currency user can also be pulled into the sovereign debt crisis.’


      Germany next to go under the crosshairs?
      Deutschland als Naechste im Visier / Fadenkreuz?

      David has it in a nutshell in par. 1 above:
      ‘The European stock markets actually rallied on the rumour that Greece would be allowed a “ring-fenced” default’

  24. Philip

    Europe is like Asia. A region. The political ties are now coming under scrutiny and of course, everyone would love to see the Euro hang around – after all, it was so handy.

    Europe as a financial institution will collapse with terrible ramifications that could set off recriminations ti threaten the Franco-German axis.

    Far better to start recognising the need for a north south divide and maybe some need to recognise the UK/Ireland grouping. Possibly add one for the east of Europe. This makes for organisational simplicity. A commission with 4 members where sensible and simpler treaties are easier to deploy. This nonsense of 20+ countries all sitting round the table is just a case of amateurish management skills at their worst and most dangerous.

    Anyway, if ireland pulled the plug now, our advantage as an exporting country would be not be visible for years. What happens in the meantime? we need an alliance or 2 and Brussels and the so called communuty is not it.

  25. Deco

    IBEC watch.

    Profits are falling, and margins are tightening. The Market is at work. And what do we hear from our normally pro-market chums in IBEC ? whinging – that is what we hear.

    IBEC have a “solution” which is supposed to be in the interest of all of us – because IBEC like to position themselves as the business intelligence solution for Irish society.

    IBEC’s proposal is to rob the pension system (or what is left of it) in order to tackle the deflation that is driving down their margins.

    They are more concerned about maintaining what is left of the binge era facade, than actually allowing people to get the money that they contributed out of their weekly taxes to the pension system.

    Time somebody stood up and told IBEC where to go. Collection of unspeakable ……..

    • Deco

      Dear IBEC.
      this is an example of “the market” at work. Great isn’t it. Pity we did not flush anglo Banglo – then we would have had an even more “interesting” example….

    • Pedro Nunez

      this is further example of the systemic crippling hypocrisy at the heart of Irish gombeen society.

      Always talking the talk, but never walking the walk.

      “Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself” Samuel Johnson,

  26. BurrenRocks

    “There’s a race to the bottom, one where communities fight to suspend labor and environmental rules in order to become the world’s cheapest supplier. The problem with the race to the bottom is that you might win…”

    The forever recession (and the coming revolution) – Seth nailing the bigger picture

  27. gizzy

    I don’t think the markets would thank anyone for anything but just move onto the next game. The Euro and the Euro project had been under sustained attack for a number of years from a time it was being mooted by some as replacing the dollar as the main reserve currency. The debt levels and budget deficits of the US and others do not seem to get any attention. I believe this is because the markets are driven by the large hedge funds which are mainly US controlled.The people running these funds are also Republicans and big contributors so will undermine attempts by the present executive to deal with global difficulties including sovereign debt. These hedge funds are also getting full returns on some investments where the shareholders have being wiped out because the were big enough and clever enough to buy debt and not shares. They are also picking up the cheap assets including banks and loan books from Banks in the US and even here eg B o I. They have managed to pick up the share for minimal invesment in a Bank which the governnment has given pillar status and will hold a duopoly position in Irish Banking. Good Business if you can get it and have the cash to hand.

  28. wills


    Quick point here.

    The euro is not the problem.

    Its the private banks flooding the economies in debt is the cause of the crisis.

  29. Jonathan

    Your statements about Greece are absolutely true but ring-fencing may or may not work.

    What if there is a leak in the ‘ring-fencing’ and fear of the ‘debt virus’ spreads to ireland again?

    I would like to tie this potential threat up with an important political event or choosing a person to represent our country at the end of October (the 27th). We are about to vote for the President, a role of technically limited power but still with influence.

    My concern is that financial competence of the candidates has not been mentioned in any of the interviews (at least that I have seen) because of all areas that we need address both domestically and especially internationally is an understanding of how the world works. (NO, I am not asking you David to run for president but it might not have been a bad idea since you are over 35 :) )

    I watched prime time and Dana mentioned building trust with the people. Nowadays that boils down to helping to manage Euros and Cents (or maybe the new and improved “Punt” soon). Helping people manage their income, can she do that? Michael D Higgins mentioned that he wanted to be an example for the people, does he have that competence and capability?

    I know this sounds off the point but leadership in these times should include as well as trust, compassion and sponsorship of worthy benefits, the example and education to show the people of ireland and the international “financially responsible behaviour”.

    I would apply the same to all our public positions, we need to raise the standard to a new one of professionals with minimum requirements for their positions otherwise we will repeat this pattern!

      • Praetorian

        Apart from Martin McGuinness, the rest of the field are political amateurs, this is no time for amateurs, we need seasoned, experienced, tough and honest politicians at all levels, if we are to have any chance of exiting our difficulties. I was shocked at the weakness of the answers some of the candidates gave and the way they allowed themselves to be bullied by one interviewer. I thought surely not, it was quite simply appalling, two of the candidates who have been in politics for decades provided some of the worst possible responses to some pretty basic questions while one intent on basing his presidency around the issue of employment couldn’t provide one decent example of something positive he would do in that area at least McGuinness said he would take the average industrial wage with the rest of the money going to take 6 unemployed people off the dole.

  30. lifeonmars

    Surely it’s not ‘political prestige’ driving this refusal to accept the inevitable – default – but market* sentiment, the desire to ransack the EU’s public sector to get as much value out of it as it can before the collapse?

    *The oligopoly rigging the market.

    Politicans have just spent the last 30 years handing the reins over to ‘the market’ – they have no other option than dance to its tune until the ship goes down.

    • Look, its not the markets we have to worry about. I agree with Will above “Its the private banks flooding the economies in debt is the cause of the crisis.”

      The private banks don’t like the market place, this is where the war between free market capitalism and banking interests, the debt plungers, is taking place.

      This is the battle between Alien and Predator. Whoever wins, we lose

      The debt plungers are struggling to rig the markets appalled e.g. at ‘junk status’ for Ireland given to us by the rating agencies…..debt for them is the solution, not the problem?

      So today’s events will be lauded on Pravda RTE as a great victory for Angela Merkel, others take the view, its a loss for Germany and Merkel, one big victory for the banks!

    • Jonathan

      @lifeonmars you are correct about your observation on politics and the market in the short term BUT for the long term we alignment of all the parts of the economy. We need all representative and especially the man in the street to behave to a higher fiscal behaviour – that means education. Models are part of education and all who can should model ‘financial responsibility’ as a beginning to solving the cause of these problems.

      We would not be in this position if individuals didn’t behave naively i.e. financially ignorant ways. Who says the banks or government can behave any better than their competence. And most of the government ministers are men and women are form our communities or have other specialities like law etc.

      David, I would love to see a book from you on how should a “financially” responsible person behave…

  31. goldbug









    • Jonathan

      @goldbug – if we are looking for a conspiracy theory, you hit the nail on the head. But let’s face it, that would be a huge orchestration.

      I would go for the mass incompetence route before the intelligent conspiracy in this case. Human frailty and lack of self-control.

      To answer David’s question on why politicians are polar opposites

      - Tax is biggest debt / liability the average person faces every day. Tax axes out the majority of earnings and with what is left a good percentage goes on VAT from petrol & cigarettes at close to 80% of the price working it way down. [thought: I must do the calculation: after 1) income tax, 2) necessities, and 3) VAT on consumables, how much real disposable income does a person get?]

      If people learn to control their debt, they will also be learning how to manage the government tax system. The state depends on lack of control.

      • @Jonathan

        To control Debt is to know how to control Time. Herein lies the secret to making Wealth.

        Tax is a denial of Your Time and is measured in days.

        To make Time is to give Time and you will be repaid tenfold.

        Watch the unfolding Full Moon next week clamour for your attention then see the glancing eyes of others .

        • Jonathan

          @ John ALLEN, thanks!

          I question, how can be change the future for Ireland if we do not change something fundamental for every citizen? Like their understanding of how to behave.

    • Brussels, Frankfurt, London….

    • Praetorian

      Similar protests have been organised i.e. Occupy LA, Occupy Austin, Occupy Toronto to name but a few, seems the people are awakening, these things take time, but everything has its time, but even so, banksters have gotten away with daylight robbery, anything done now by politicians is too little too late, the treasury has been emptied. Greatest theft of the public purse in human history.

      If you want to steal, don’t rob a bank, open one.

  32. Empirical Observation: Locke, Bacon, and Hume

    Two young lads 18 months old and 20 months old are playing with the same wooden blocks. Are they playing ‘together’?

    The world financial news is published by the financial elite: Reuters et. al. biased again and again to give a sense of causal activity… (and place weaker traders at the the wrong end of the trading saturation curve… this is how the money changers make their money with their timed news – put a 1 percent tax on all trades and all future baloney ends…)

    All that is happening is parallel play between the ‘occurring news’ and the buying and selling trading saturation limits of the population in the market with the real directional force behind the green curtain -but in plain view : the system’s necessary feedback contraction of the debt-money aggregate.

    Observe … empirically … the trading patterns of the CAC or DAX.

    After an initiating fractal of 3 days on 9 August 2011 a perfect Lammert three phase growth fractal series of 7/17-18/14-13 days :: x/2.5x/2x transpired with the characteristic nonlinear break between day 16 and day 17 of the second fractal…

    Somewhat similar … no exactly the same …as the 2005 simple empirical mathematical quantum laws posted in the Main Page of the Economic Fractalist.

    The empirically derived laws of gravity are what they are … the debt dependent laws of saturation macroeconomics are what they are….

    Occurring (again and again and again)by chance and chance alone?

    • dwalsh

      Hi Lammert

      It does seem to me that in this piece you argue quiet cogently for what I have presented to you a couple of times…i.e. that there is more to it than blind statistical mathematical laws working themselves out.

      My argument has rested on what I take to be an obvious empirical fact. The fact that humans do not have equal decision power nor agency and impact in the economy.

      Does your theory model this fact?

      Beginning at the lowest levels where humans cannot even afford to eat properly and rising in geometric steps through the levels of waged consumers and on upwards through the higher echelons of business and industry to the financial oligarchs, we have a geometric progression of economic agency and impact. At the highest levels it is a truly Olympian ‘market-making’ agency, as the smartest guys in the room like to call it.

      I would argue that the cycles of boom and bust which most economists believe are natural, or in your case mathematical, are in fact synthetic and not chance alone.

  33. dwalsh

    Just like to say I benefit enormously from this blog and all the views expressed; even those with which I disagree most vehemently.

    Thank you all.

    And thank you David for putting up with the lot of us.

    • Likewise here, DWalsh, in a difficult situation of intrigue, coverups, deliberate false propaganda, concealment of information, I’ve found on occasions great sources of information here contributed by all bloggers, left wing, right wing religious nutters(you know who you are:)), across the cultural spectrum.

      But there’s a unity in the interest we share in evolving economic issues that have deep rooted consequences for society and the lives of people in our society.

      The diversity of point of view is to be very much welcomed and often the source of most learning.

      Great thought provoking posts from yourself and coldblow along the way, apologies if I step on people’s toes in any banter! I can’t promise I wont again:)

      Likewise, correct me if flaws found in my own
      logic or understanding on any issue.

      I’m conscious that for some of you guys, this is a spelling BeeE, so, feel free also to pick me up on any
      erroneous spelling patterns I fall into there:)

      • Praetorian

        It is about the ‘engagement’ with the issues, no one person has all the answers, that is too dangerous a proposition, ad hominems must be avoided for the needless distraction they are from the issues.

  34. dwalsh

    @ transitionman

    Yes you may be right.

    My own hope is that at some point the people in massive numbers will begin to let their politicians know, in no uncertain terms, that enough is enough; that it is time to end this rampage by the financial sector; and bring sovereign order back to our societies.

    Remember…they need our mandate to be in government at all. That is their Achilles heel. If they really believe we will do to them what was done to FF, they will listen and act.

    But it will probably have to get worse before that kind of unified action will or can come from the people. And it will need strong leadership and organisation; which I do not see yet.

  35. CitizenWhy

    Napoleon Bonaparte called history “A set of lies agreed upon.”

    • I think I need to revisit Joseph Conrad, who amazingly only learned English in his twenties, and reread Nostromo.

      While history may be a “A set of lies agreed upon”, Conrad has this notion of life being a set of sustaining illusions…thought provoking also.

      • Praetorian

        Gross simplification from Napoleon, maybe if he had paid more attention he would not have done half the things he did including invading Russia in 1812. He went in with arguably the greatest land army the world had ever seen, numbers range from 450,000 to 600,000 men from many nationalities, 120,000 horses, thousands of canon. Came out with less than 10,000 men.

        When you look at a book like Howard Zinn’s ‘People’s History of the United States’ you see the value of the honourable historian but a lot is written by what are sometimes referred to as ‘court historians’, one has to be discerning.

  36. MELTDOWN, the film

    A four part documentation of the global heist titled MELTDOWN and produced by Aljazeera is available here:

    I just watched the first part yesterday and thought this to be excellent.


    • Comments on Wall Street Occupation

      Chris Hedges:

      ‘The criminal class in this country (USA) has seized power.’

      Noam Chomsky:

      “Anyone with eyes open knows that the gangsterism of Wall Street – financial institutions generally – has caused severe damage to the people of the United States (and the world). And should also know that it has been doing so increasingly for over 30 years, as their power in the economy has radically increased, and with it their political power. That has set in motion a vicious cycle that has concentrated immense wealth, and with it political power, in a tiny sector of the population, a fraction of 1%, while the rest increasingly become what is sometimes called “a precariat” – seeking to survive in a precarious existence. They also carry out these ugly activities with almost complete impunity – not only too big to fail, but also “too big to jail.

      The courageous and honorable protests underway in Wall Street should serve to bring this calamity to public attention, and to lead to dedicated efforts to overcome it and set the society on a more healthy course.”

      • Praetorian

        When people realise they actually have all the necessary power to change things, then things will change. An awakened people is quite a sight to behold. Still a lot of silence in Eire, but I hold out hope, something may yet happen especially if the government keep pushing with their array of oppressive taxes and assorted charges.

        “The greatest weapon the enemy possesses is the mind of the oppressed” ~ Simon Bolivar (1783 – 1830)

        • Malcolm McClure

          Praetorian: Lets keep cool here and avoid stirring passions.

          Better hope that your awakened, oppressed, people don’t react with excessive zeal:– For instance, like during the Terror after the French Revolution, or the civil wars in America, Ireland and elsewhere, –or even the Maoist excesses of the 60s and 70s in China.

          What would be the consequences of popular retribution if the bourgeoisie are seen to have flouted egalitarian principles of economic fairness too extravagantly? A renewed Flight of the Earls?

          Even the ‘oppressed’ amongst our countrymen have much to be thankful for, when their lot is compared with denizens of the barrios in many SA countries, which are a disgrace to Bolivar’s ideals.

          The first casualty of revolution would be truth and the second trust. Who would be the gainers? Would their antecedents be real, continuity or merely provisional?

          The web provides tools for rational argument and democratic debate which IMHO is preferable to demos that escalate uncontrollably after skulls get cracked.

          • Praetorian

            Malcolm, a tad alarmist? I was thinking more of a national strike. As Martin Luther King and Gandhi demonstrated, and as we saw it in Egypt and Israel where hundreds of thousands came out and forced a very right wing government to think again and in Iceland, the people can and must organise peacefully but it also has to be effective.

          • Malcolm McClure

            Praetorian: Perhaps alarmist, but this blog sometimes strays a bit far towards anarchy. IMHO we should allow democratically elected representatives at least a year to try to solve problems left by the last lot, before advocating widespread demos or strikes. The next step would be to apply pressure on elected TDs by local groups, who first agree on a significant change in policy, then make representations to their TD as individuals.

            That’s how democracy is supposed to work.

          • Harper66

            @ Malcolm –
            I am reminded of an episode of the excellent BBC comedy Red Dwarf where Rimmer becomes an activist and utters the followinig immortal lines –

            “I propose we hit it hard and hit it fast with a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign”


          • Malcolm McClure

            HARPER 66: Totally agree with Red Dwarf plan, except up here, a Whist drive wouldn’t work as it is a bit suburban. It would have to be a Twenty-fives session in the local pub.

          • dwalsh

            Hey Malcolm…we may not have a year.

          • Malcolm McClure

            dwalsh; How can strikes and demos accomplish an improvement in general living standards before next March? That surely is the measure of whether such action now is justified? Keep your powder dry until then and let’s see what happens. If the government get things massively wrong in the budget, they will light the touch-paper themselves.

  37. CitizenWhy

    Is this the start of a big movement?

    US city bans outsourcing of hotel cleaning jobs (big problem in US). If extended to universities and hospitals and then private sector, this could be huge victory for workers, making unionization more likely and secure.–07.15

  38. Alf

    The worst part of this new ‘bailout’ is that they are going to ‘leverage’ it. After all the problems we had with gambling banks, we are going to watch Eurocrats gambling with our money now. The thing about leveraging is that you can go broke at break-neck speed, you need to be ‘righter than right’ or the interest will crush you. However we are told leveraging to trillions is a good thing. With the unending reckless optimism of our politicians, I naturally fear the worst. They must be in a real hurry to bankrupt Europe.

  39. CitizenWhy

    Michael Moore at Occupy Wall Street. “I want to see a perp walk.”

    Because speakers are not allowed a loudspeaker, the nearby listeners repeat every sentence.

  40. Praetorian

    Can anyone tell me if the figure cited (see link for Ireland) is accurate?

  41. ECCE the DAX and CAC PreCollapse ‘Final’ Saturation Pattern

    Empirically observing commodity and equity saturation curves, a simple derived mathematical model was formulated. It was self-evident that the trading saturation patterns that occurred on a a time scale of minutes occurred also on the times of hours, also of days then weeks, months, quarters, and years.

    Looking at the, by definition, fractal patterns, a great nonlinear 140-175 year event was expected to transpire. 1998 marked the 140th year with a forward 35 year window for the historical nonlinearity of equity and commodity assets. (End oil might have been the exception but with the ECAT, even oil may be a collapsing 20 year asset.)

    With the amount of debt in the system and the forward momentum offered by the world’s fiat standard of US debt notes – backed by a nuclear computer-networked satellite-precise military, the US could wind down until 2033.

    This was the empirical observation and derived mathematical construct posted in The Economic Fractalist in 2005:

    “The ideal growth fractal time sequence is X, 2.5X, 2X and 1.5-1.6X. The first two cycles include a saturation transitional point and decay process in the terminal portion of the cycles. A sudden nonlinear drop in the last 0.5x time period of the 2.5X is the hallmark of a second cycle and characterizes this most recognizable cycle. After the nonlinear gap drop, the third cycle begins. This means that the second cycle can last anywhere in length from 2x to 2.5x. The third cycle 2X is primarily a growth cycle with a lower saturation point and decay process followed by a higher saturation point. The last 1.5-1.6X cycle is primarily a decay cycle interrupted with a mid area growth period. Near ideal fractal cycles can be seen in the trading valuations of many commodities and individual stocks. Most of the cycles are caricatures of the ideal and conform to Gompertz mathematical type saturation and decay curves.”

    G. Lammert

    This page was last updated on 15-May-2005 01:21:59 PM

    ECCE now the 7/17/14 day :: x/2.5x/2x DAX and CAC ‘final’ precollapse perfect saturation three phase saturation series – with a characteristic gap between 2x and 2.5x of the second 17 day fractal…. between day 16 and 17.

    For the scientists… what is the probability that this ideal fractal series is occurring by chance and chance alone? (Zero or very close to it.)

    (There is no final series … these patterns will recur again and representing system’s natural self-organizing quantum fractal patterns that compose the system’s asset saturation curves in a growing or declining money-debt aggregate…)

    • BrianC

      New to this, seems very interesting. Looked it up on the web. Seen your site. From 2006 until now is there any more information.

      As it is very mathimatical in nature a lot will perhaps shoot over my head. It would be great to get a more qualitative perspective and the web site does provide this but will take a little time to read and hopefully assimilate. But from the quick snap shot look seems like we are in a ground hog day scenario growth decay the duration of which is influenced by six controlling factors. Maybe Economic is more science than art afterall.

      • Thank you for observing – that is all that is required to see the system’s ubiquitous x/2-2.5x/2x time based fractal patterns.

        Mathematical patterns define a science.

        The macroeconomic system’s time based asset valuation curves are regularly patterned.

        And Macroeconomics is a science

        with bounded conditions (primarily by bad debt expansion and over production of assets) and with self organization.

        This is the most important observational discovery of the 21st century and you are among the first to realize it.

        The macroeconomic system’s math is elegantly simple:

        grade school child simple

        and likely has within it, a simple fractal math that can be applied to other patterned sciences: physics, chemistry, biology to represent self organization.

        Thanks again.

        • During the 7/17/14 day (:: first/second/third) DAX CAC fractal ..
          European equity markets been transitioning to a final 14 day lower high third fractal equity saturation area.

          Now European bad unrepayable debt will undergo nonlinear massive default.

          The historical equity commodity gold silver collapse will transpire now with US bonds going to 150 year lows ….
          but you will be able to perceive the collapse within the context of a self organizing system and the patterned science Saturation Macroeconomics

          • Adam Byrne

            When can we expect this? I thought it was supposed to be last week.

          • Re: When can we expect this? I thought it was supposed to be last week.

            The 7/17/14 :: x/2-2.5x/2x day final three phase saturation growth fractal series for the DAX and CAC has been completed …

            The window for the historical nonlinear equity commodity low is the 85th quarter of a 34/85 of 85 quarter first and second fractal series starting in 1982 – qualitatively the Volcker fulcrum.

            The second fractal 85th quarter of the 12 trillion Wilshire ends in October-November-December of 2011.

            As improbable as it might seem, the operations of the macroeconomic system as determined in the system’s time-based asset valuations represents a highly organized, patterned science.

            Nonlinear lower lows of equity and commodity assets will be timed qualitatively with European debt default and closure of European banks that are holding historically low reserves … about one percent of deposits.

          • Adam Byrne

            Ok fair enough, I am not doubting your expertise. So in your view we are looking at a major ‘event’ before Christmas? Would that be a reasonable conclusion?

          • Mr. Byrne: re: when? (now)

            Saturation Macroeconomics : A Patterned Science Equivalent to Physics

            The CAC The DAX The Wilshire’s OCTOBER 2011 Fractal Crash Sequence

            11 August 2011 :: 7/17/14/2 of 10-11 days :: x/2-2.5x/2x/1.5-1.6x

            Saturation macroeconomics would seem to qualitatively well describe the world’s current macroeconomic state of affairs.

            Reduce the macroeconomy to its three principle elements:
            debt, money, and other assets. (Debt and money are assets until default or the Sovereign state is kaput).

            Al three have the quality of valuation changes over time relative to each other and subclasses of debt, money(currency), and assets.

            Business cycles are well known where too much debt is created and too great number of assets are produced and thereafter the system self-corrects with unemployment and debt default on the collateral of overproduced and overvalued assets as dependent variables.

            Is there a time denominated patterned mathematical relationship between the elements of macroeconomy – a pattern with sufficient regularity to ascribe to the macroeconomic system the properties of a science?

            in the Final Update of the Economic Fractalist, a challenge was self-made to identify the peak saturation valuation area and the expected nonlinearity of the macroeconomic system.

            The simple mathematical operating laws of asset valuation growth and decay of the Macroeconomic system were described in a single paragraph on the 2005 Main Page of the Economic Fractalist.

            The simple operational self organization law of the Macroeconomic System is a quantum time based ordered fractal progression of growth and decay of its asset valuations :: x/2.5x/2x/1.5-1.6x with the the first 3 fractals representing growth with maximum valuation buying trading saturation areas and the 4th fractal representing decay to a maximum selling devaluation trading saturation area.

            The 11 October 2007 Wilshire was prospectively identified as a reflexic 20/5040 day :: x/2.5x/2x fractal series with the 40th day 7 October 2007.

            The 6 May 2010 Flash Crash was within the 2x-2.5x terminal portion of a second 221 day growth fractal of a 6 March 2009 88/221 day series which ended with a 6/15/12/10 day :: x/2.5x/2x/1.5x series.

            And now to end a 1982 Wilshire 34/85 of 85 quarter series , the DAX and CAC have completed a 11 August 7/17/14 :: x/2.5x/2x growth series with a nonlinear lower low gap between day 16 and 17 of the second fractal.

            Could the 1982 34/85 fractal global collapse be contained in an 11 August DAX/CAC :: 7/17/14/2 of 10-11 day x/2.5x/2x/1.5-1.6x fractal?

            (For the Wilshire after an initiating fractal series of 3 days from 9 to 11 August, an 11 August 2011 fractal of 7/16/14/2 of 10 to 11 day fractal.)

            What is the probability that these repetitive fractal patterns are occurring by chance and chance alone? Near to or simply Zero.

            The Macroeconomic system of money, debt and assets represents a self organizing system with periodicity, patterns, and order equivalent to physics.

    • BrianC

      Does the red triangle have any significance. Just out of interest.

    • BrianC


      As I said I am not expert in this field and truthfully I appreciate what you say regards the maths being elementary. That is encouraging. I am a firm believer that fractional reserve banking cannot work for many reasons but ultimately on avarice that demands exponential thinking demanding compound interest. Based on the little I have read on your site I would say there is a fair chance you are aware of Mike Montagne the originator of mathematically perfect economy (mpe) and I quote from his exhaustive body of information.

      “If money is introduced to circulation as debt subject to interest, then merely to maintain a vital circulation, we have to perpetually re-borrow whatever we pay against principal and interest obligations. Payments against the previous sum of principal thus are re-assumed as new principal, equal to the old – making it impossible to pay down the sum of debt. But as payments against interest obligations do not count against the previous principal, our perpetual re-borrowing of interest to replenish a circulation means therefore that the sum of debt will perpetually increase so much as periodic interest on an ever greater sum of debt. Not only would this mean that there is ever less of a given circulation to devote to prices, much less increasing prices ostensibly tolerated by the non-existent “inflation,” it would mean that as a consequence of this multiplication of debt in proportion to the circulation, that the system inherently, ultimately collapses under a sum of debt it can no longer afford to service.”
      “So we have several things here – not just some purported ‘inflation,’ which we don’t know even can exist:”
      “We have an inherently, irreversibly multiplying sum of debt, which ultimately engenders collapse, and which, all along the irreversible path to that collapse, imposes ever greater costs of servicing ever greater debt. While I can understand that *these costs* manifest in ever greater prices as industry has to account for their erosion of profit margins, it is also true that ever less of the circulation can be devoted to commerce, as ever more of the circulation is inherently devoted instead to servicing debt. Eventually, even *ALL* of the circulation is devoted to servicing debt.”

  42. I think everyone is skirting/ avoiding the main fact. Default is being postponed by the politicians until their friends in the banks get organised and enough government/ ECB funds to be able to survive the defaults.
    The taxpayer has to take the hit, not the banks who have friends in high places. Remember Anglo went out of a Limb and the other banks let it fall when the government promised to pay enough of Anglo debts to keep them out of trouble.
    This is happening all over the EU.
    David is probably right that the small nations have to fall but it is being delayed until the ECB pays enough to the “markets”.

  43. Austerity is just a toddle says Estonias President

    “After [Stalin’s] mass deportations, [austerity] didn’t seem that bad. I guess it’s harder if you’ve been living the good life of bunga bunga parties.”

    • Deco

      I wonder how the Italian government will receie these remarks….the Italian people probably know only too well the meaning of them….

  44. EU 2011 – No comment!

    Jussi Halla-aho, chairman of the parliamentary administration committee, and an MP for the populist True Finns party:

    “What Greece needs at this particular point in time is a military junta that would not have to worry about its popularity and could use tanks to enforce some order among strikers and rioters,”

    Source: Helsinki Times September 14th

    • Deco

      The ironic thing, is that from the viewpoint of factual history, this is how Greece “coped” with previous moments of national insolvency.

      In fact, this is the standard process of many banana republics. The people elect deceitful politicians. They give all their supporters a Keynesian stimulus, at the expense of their oppositions supporters. The sums are cooked, when this causes nothing but problems in the national accounts. Then there is a serious fiscal crisis. Then there is a money printing phase. Then a business failure phase. Followed by a mass unemployment phase. And finally a money as toilet paper with grinding poverty phase. And then followed by demonstrations. And followed by a coup of some sort.

      Greece has to fix it’s political system, by creating new political parties who are serious about the running of the country – and cut out the habit of voting people into power who automatically return them the favour with freebies, and bribes.

      The problem with the EU as it currently functions, is that it funds this sort of political corruption in the PIGIS.

      The media seems to think that the way to deal with this problem is to under-report it, so that the taxpayers who are paying for this will never know.

      Just wait until they find out – then the sticky stuff will hit the fan…..

  45. Deco

    Listened to the Pres debate last night. Was the first time I listened to any part of the LLS in years. To be honest, it is turning into a donkey race.

    Anyway, Dana made a remark “Burn the bondholders, not the Constitution”.

    And as I was sitting there I was thinking about McUseless signing into law the banking guarantee, as well as the Anglo Bailout Bill, and the bills for NAMA, and other smaller (non-systemic risk) bailouts like INBS, EBS (in my mind these outfits should have been flushed). And I was thinking of Furrylugs and Article 45.

    Senator Norris also made the point that he read the list of Anglo Bondholders into the Seanad. Actually, he did too – but the Ceann Comhairle of the Seanad stopped him in what was a serious transgression of the right to self expression of an elected official.

    Martin Mcguinness had nothing to say about bondholders, despite all the rhetoric of Pearse Doherty.

    The government party candidates and the continuity FF candidate had nothing to say about bondholders either. Neither did Denis O’Brien’s pal (who in my mind is a bit too “corporate” to be of any use).

    The Anglo Bondholders – they have not gone away you know !!!!!

    Neither has the bill.


    The election of an Irish President is of immense importance of course!

    The polish government asking their people to elect a polish King on October 6th 1939 would have been of a similar high importance for the people of Poland, after the Battle of Knock and Hitler’s annexation of Poland’s sovereign territory.

    Utterly risible and nothing but a distraction maneuver, as was the visit of the British LSE representative Elisabeth or the NYSE representative Obama.

  47. Harper66

    Angry Icelanders have pelted MPs with eggs during a protest at the opening of the new parliamentary session.

    My respect for Iceland just grows and grows…

  48. tony_murphy

    Scientific Tyranny is upon us now.. Debt is a minor problem. The Eugenics people went to America following WW2, the didn’t go away. The got a bad name under Hitler, so they changed tactics.

    The human genome “advances” are one of the serious threats to humanity. It’s sold as a fix for hereditary diseases, but they can also screw you up. The demonic globalist elites are attacking the human immune system. Check out forced vaccinations in America..

    Aldous Huxley, who penned “A Brave New World” had a brother Julian who headed up UNESCO. He is Mr Trans-humanism + eugenics. The elites plans for the world is written in black and white for all to see.

    Wake up people, if they haven’t already drugged you senseless

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