February 14, 2011

It’s the enormous debt, stupid

Posted in Ireland · 154 comments ·
Share 

“Faced with the choice between changing our mind and proving the there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy with the proof.”

This wonderful quotation from the brilliant economist JK Galbraith sums up where most of the Irish establishment is with respect to the biggest question facing the electorate. The only question in this election is whether we default or not, how we do it and where we draw the line. Everything else is secondary because, unless we get this enormous debt monkey off our backs and devise a growth strategy, there is little point discussing the health or education service as there will be no money to translate aspiration into reality.

So rather than understand that the canard of paying back all the banks’ debts is futile and changing their minds, the establishment is trying to find more proof that the policy of keeping the banks alive is the right one.

This leads to “serious people” saying very silly things. “Serious people” is an expression used by the establishment and its media lackeys who have no mind of their own to describe people who we are told we should listen to. Typically these people are the classic insiders, people who have been inside the system for years. Usually they have never done anything but play the insider game and won’t countenance changing their minds.

So the establishment stick to their guns or, as Galbraith would say, “they get busy with the proof”. This is immature and this inability to change their minds leads so-called “serious” people to say things like Alan Dukes did this week, blithely plucking out a figure of €100 billion which he says is needed to keep the banking system afloat. Snap out of it! We should not pay another cent to this banking system. We simply do not have the money.

Who thinks it is clever that Ireland should spend €100billion buying a load of toxic bank rubbish when we only earn €31.7billion (ie Ireland’s total tax take from all sources in 2010)? This is not a serious proposal and makes us look silly and, more to the point, it leads to more capital flight because people realize that the establishment has lost the plot. Foreign investors are entitled to ask: “If they are prepared to put €100 billion into toxic banks, what would they do with investors’ money?”

Of course we are going to burn the bondholders; of course we are going to wind up the banks. Of course the ECB will have to take a big loss on the Irish assets it has taken on its books. Of course the Germans will have to put their banks’ expansion into Ireland via lending to the Irish banks up there with previous ill-fated German expansions in the past. That’s just life. We wish it wasn’t that way but it is.

The Irish establishment has got to stop looking for the proof that spending €100 billion in toxic banks is the right thing to do. There is no proof and it’s time to change your mind.

And if the establishment is not prepared to change their minds we should change it for them — after all, it’s our money, not theirs. The way we do this is by making available as much information as possible to avoid this catastrophe.

We all know that knowledge is power and we also know that if knowledge is power, those with power will try to limit the amount of knowledge disseminated. The easiest way to ration anything is to charge for it. So if you give something away for free, it empowers people and allows them to make proper choices for themselves. This rule holds for the average person as well as politicians.

The reason the establishment gets away with such flannel is that the average person doesn’t have access to the right information. In such an environment of suppressed information, certain economists or experts of all sorts play the role that priests played in the old days. The priest had the monopoly on information, interpretation and serious analysis. They were the “serious people” of the old days, a title bestowed on them by their position and their connections, their place in the system (and too often little else).

Fuelled by this sense of invincibility, they started making basic mistakes, such as selling indulgences and the like and there was a revolt called the Reformation where the experts were exposed and the myth of knowledge was broken. The people who dissented made the Bible available and declared that a personal relationship with God unmediated by priests was not only possible but was right.

In this election, economic knowledge is power and it should be made freely available to as many people as possible. It’s a democratic imperative.

I have just spent the most wonderful week working with people from all sorts of backgrounds to provide some economic information for free.

In response to requests for economic information from candidates – some from the main parties and others independent — we decided to create an economic information hub online. These candidates particularly the independent ones — the little guys – felt at a disadvantage because they couldn’t afford to pay for economic advice, which the big guys could fork out for. These little guys knew in their bones that the economics pedaled by the establishment made no sense but they felt powerless.

So two weeks ago today, on Facebook and Twitter we called for volunteers to help make some economics accessible on the net. To our surprise, dozens turned up to help. These volunteers, aided by a number of well-know economics professors, university lecturers and doctors of economics, have come together to make this happen.

The new website is called www.thepeopleseconomy.com and is live now. The idea is to make economics — the most important issue in this election — accessible to all. Economics is far too important to be left to “serious people”; it affects everyone, it is our economy, not theirs. It is our money; not theirs and it is our future not just theirs. We hope you — whether you are a candidate or a citizen — find it helpful.

www.thepeopleseconomy.com


  1. Gege Le Beau

    Chuchill once said that Soviet Russia was a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

    Ireland however is as transparent as it comes with people like Dukes cheerleading the Republic off a cliff. €100 billion just like that but from an elite perspective it makes perfect sense.

    Thankfully there has been no political bounce for FF with its new leader (and despite being given carte blanche on the media, especially RTE-Pravda, which just announced at the top of its report, 100 new jobs in the ‘financial services sector’ if you can believe it, over 3 years, with an €11 million state investment, so just €110,000 per job for that headline two weeks from the general election).

    Meanwhile China has passed Japan as the world’s second biggest economy and while the issue of human rights is extremely important, our government has not steamlined tourist and students visas for this incredible market.

  2. professore

    I saw Alan Dukes on Vincent Browne. I assume this is the interview you are referring to. I had the impression from Dukes that he knows that we can’t pay all too well and was stating the facts to show how ridiculous they were. A bit like the 99 year old going to the library with an overdue book from when he was a kid and being asked to pay € 40 K in late fees. It ain’t gonna happen, but it’s the rules !

    • paddyjones

      Debts debts and more debts
      130b by banks to the ECB
      50b by central bank to ECB
      98b National debt
      75b by NAMA to ECB
      127b by main banks to German banks
      40b by main banks to French banks
      100b by main banks to UK banks
      There is no distinction between sovereign debt and bank debt, its all ours.
      There is no hope , I’m off to a new country

  3. Below is a very good read for those of you who think growth is the answer.

    Prognosis 2012
    The end of growth — capitalists vs. capitalism

    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2010/02/27/prognosis-2012

    • On the Keiser Report today Ireland gets a mention.
      Fitzpatrick branded a terrorist like Hitler and Mao.
      Bankers do much more harm than ‘terrorists’

      Government relations with Bankers likened to Maggie Thatcher being in bed with Bobby Sands.

      Ireland is a kakisrocracy and Western Governments will do anything in their power to ensure that Capitalism does not apply to elites.

      In other words what is happening here is unbelievable.

      Banks are holding a gun to the heads or Irish and Uk bankers.

      Illuminating interview with Barry Ritholtz where he says the US is a corporatocracy.

      http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/oil-reserve-investment-trading/

      It’s the language stupid

  4. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by David McWilliams, TalentCoop, TalentCoop, Carol Hunt, David Miller and others. David Miller said: RT @davidmcw: New on the site: It’s the enormous debt, stupid http://dlvr.it/GYCD6 [...]

  5. johnm

    China.
    ireland should learn from the Australian experience.
    Australin is a huge provider of education to foreign students.
    Students can gain entry to the country by studying certain courses.
    they pay for the course and it earns the Australian government colossal figures, from memory I think last year it was one Billion dollars foreign education added to the econlomy.

    Ireland has a chance to be the European version.

    Ireland should be a provider of all kinds of education to foreign students.
    It does not have to be trinity or universities, the Australia experience is student in the equivalent of our gmit….
    pay for your study in ireland and after qualifying…but you must qualify… you get your Irish passport.
    Students not able to claim any benefits while in Ireland.
    there are wealthy students out there and that is who we want. Sorry but thats the way it is.
    After you finish your course you have to remain in Ireland for x amount of years.again , no claiming the dole.
    Students can live in the nama houses. or apartments.
    needs work but there is an idea here, with proper thought it would work out.
    We have a reputation worldwide for education.Lets use that and give ourselves a boost at the same time.

    • Deco

      Actually, of far more relevance, Australia (currently in it’s own binge economic phase) has an awful lot to ealrn from Ireland. It might not look like Australia is going to crash at the moment, but give it 18 months, and things might be different.

  6. johnm

    call this one of the diaspora ideas…..

  7. wills

    David.

    *……..-after all, it’s our money, not theirs.*

    Time for the people to see money is a utility and all have equal right to use it to live a life in health, wealth and happiness.

    Fantastic.

  8. adamabyss

    subscribe.

  9. Deco

    That quotation seems to apply to much of our establishment. Though they are quite adept at simply avoiding the question altogether. Not in agreement with Galbraith as a “great economist”. I think I recollect the elder Galbraith being an advisor to Lyndon Baynes Johnson in the 1960s on the War on Poverty, which accelerated poverty. A policy disaster if ever there was on. Galbraith as a committed Keynesian could not foresee waste being wasteful, or debt being a problem. The entire 1960s policy framework of 1960s America ended in unsustainable debt build up, resulting in Nixon taking the dollar off gold in 1971. Government spending caused inflation, and the inflation increased the cost of living, to the point that the bill for the entire program was paid by the poor. Therefore, this should have been better thought out. Yet, still to this day, there is demand from many political economists to have a stealth inflation rate which basically robs the poor and those who work, and which benefits those connected to the centres of power and finance.

  10. Deco

    David,
    I agree with you concerning the parallel between Brussels in 2011, and Rome in 1520.

    Basically, the same regions which broke with Rome over funny business concerning the transfer of real money, are being deceived again. At some time the entire thing will be called into question.

  11. Law Library

    I think if a provisional team of technical legal experts were to make themselves available voluntarily and to start to decipher the written laws from legalise jargon into sustainable english we could feel safer .Maybe they could interpret the Codes of The Constitution and print it in an understandable way.We would feel more confident .

    They could also write with their free thinking minds their suggestions on law reform and to invite the public to participate.

    Even an Ozzy Osburn Guide to the Irish Constitution would be a good start .

    • at the moment its a bloody jazus #”#+ing thing that no one understands .

      • How do I explain the Constitution to the People in Southhill ?

        • Colin

          John,

          They’ve no interest in it, not many of them even vote. As long as they’ve money for booze, fags, holidays, takeaways and taxis, they don’t care what way the country is run.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgXzPfAxjo

          Jarvis Cocker gets it right here.

          • adamabyss

            I agree, – as admirable and useful as the new ‘People’s Economy’ website is, only a tiny percentage of the country could be bothered actually reading it, never mind comprehending it. We overestimate the intelligence of the population at large (and that includes myself – I overestimate my own intelligence all the time).

          • Comments like that are ignorant, arrogant and elitist.
            Plenty of good people live in the worst areas and you should be ashamed of yourself. You sound like a typical tory tosser

          • Colin

            Pauldiv,

            I’m not ignorant of the situation at all, you are. I know these areas well and the people living there. I’ve worked in these neighbourhoods and associated with them in sports and some did attend school with me so shut up.

            Arrogant? You’re talking crap here. I’m not looking down on them. Its a pity they are the way they are, but that’s the way they like it (something leftie liberal bleeding hearts can never understand).

            Elitist? More bullshit from you. I’m on the dole, nothing elitist about that, I can assure you.

          • Eireannach

            @Colin

            If “Elitist” is frowning on ordinary people paying astonishingly exhorbitant prices for a so-called home or “roof over my head” in that stupid, unthinking expression…

            ..if “Elitist” is thinking that this is an agrarian peasantry overdoing it as compensation for their historical experience of being prohibited from owning property, so they act like cocaine addicts going for line after line of “property investments” until their financial hearts literally burst in their chests…

            ..if ‘Elitist” is distancing oneself from the foolish nonsens of ordinary people in this way…

            ..then I am an “Elitist” and absolutely proud of it. It’s the property owners in negative equity who can hold their heads in shame, whereas I can hold my “Elitist” head up high that I was always above this grasping, peasant, nouveau riche vulgarity. Because I WAS always above it.

  12. ex_pat_northerner

    Just heard a surreal todayfm news.. There was some fine gaeler wanting Cowen to be questioned by Gardai regarding Anglo.(backed up by all the denials that this is politically motivated, and no aspersions etc to be cast on Cowen’s good name…) followed by Micheal Martin talking in a Chinese accent.. saying something about how Ireland should be a software development hub and how every Chinese person has told him so (with a Chinese accent) just in case we didn’t believe him.
    Did I catch an advert for the Savage Eye by mistake ?

  13. Deco

    2011 – It’s the economy stupid.

    But, in 2004, “it’s the lifestyle, stupid”. The lifestyle created the debt. And there has been no admission about this. In fact it is completely absent.

    • John Q. Public

      Nobody wants to take personal responsibility in this society for the stupid mortgages/hire purchase agreements and credit card debts they have. Maybe we should listen to this insider: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2011/desmond-plan/index.pdf

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRTGcvWpouU&NR=1

      • Harper66

        You do know who Dermot Desmond is,right?

        even a quick search on google will throw up results showing he has a hand in moulding FF policy as far back as you care to go…if memeory serves he also had a hand in repairing CJ’s yacht “because in Ireland thats what friends do….”

        Of particular interest in the document you linked, considering the times that FF are in, is the notion to strenghten the opposition…hmmmm…

        By the way when your talking about nobody wanting to take resonsibility for their debts I presume your talking about Irelands and Europes banking and business elite.?

        Maybe we shouldnt listen to this insider.

  14. David,

    What happened in Egypt and Tunisia, on all accounts and rightly so, should have happened in Ireland, Greece et al. two years ago.

    Thanks a lot to all the Initiators!

    I am spreading it to everyone I know, the least I can do, hoping others do the same.

    Best
    G

  15. Why not just explain to people that defaulting will not cause any normally managed nation to be cut off from future loans — for the same reason that a new credit card offer appears in your mail just after you default on the old one?

    The bank understands that you are not a deliberate welcher — that you did not want to get in trouble and will work ever harder not to in the future — and the bank wants to make some of that money back that it lost by making new interest. Argentina did it — and did much better afterwards.

  16. CitizenWhy

    “The Irish establishment has got to stop looking for the proof that spending €100 billion in toxic banks is the right thing to do. There is no proof and it’s time to change your mind.” … Amen.

  17. I would suggest an idea to everyone who read the Doorstep Questionnaire to be asked to candidates knocking at your door here:

    http://thepeopleseconomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ThePeoplesEconomy.pdf

    Has your iPhone, camera, handycam, camera whatever you might have available and

    FILM THE CANDIDATES ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS!

  18. daramac

    I thought you might be interested in the results of a poll, conducted by the Transition Year students in Coláiste Eoin, and carried out in ten separate locations in Dublin City and County on Thursday 11 February 2011.

    A total of 545 people were interviewed for the purpose of compiling the poll.

    Between 50 and 60 people were interviewed in the following areas; Stillorgan, Dundrum, Greystones, Rathmines, The Temple Bar, Blackrock, Henry Street, Dún Laoghaire, Delgany, Grafton Street.

    The following were the questions that were put to the participants along with their results in percentages.

    (1) Do you intend voting in the upcoming general
    election?

    Yes 87% No 13%

    (2) At the moment to which party do you intend giving
    your number one vote to?

    Fianna Fáil 10%
    Fine Gael 22%
    Labour 20%
    Sinn Féin 8%
    Green Party 3%
    United Left 3%
    Independents 3%
    Undecided 23%
    (3) If given the following option which would you vote
    for?

    Fianna Fáil 8%
    Fine Gael 21%
    Labour 17%
    Sinn Féin 6%
    Green Party 1%
    United Left 3%
    Independent 10%
    Undecided 3%
    None of the Above 30%

    (4) Who would you prefer as Taoiseach?

    Michael Martin 19%
    Enda Kenny 16%
    Eamon Gilmore 21%
    None of the Above 44%

    (5) Would you like to see the option None of the Above
    on the ballot paper?

    Yes 63% No 37%

    (6) Do you believe there is need for major reform of the
    Political system in this country?

    Yes 95% No 5%

    Significant aspects:

    Breakdown of results were broadly similar in all areas of the city/county. The one exception being the results from Blackrock area.

    The high percentage of those intending to vote can be explained by the fact that those not interested in the election generally declined the opportunity to take part.

    Interestingly, once the option None of the Above was introduced, the percentage of those who previously stated that they were in the undecided category of voters plummeted from 23% to 3%.

    The slippage in vote for all parties, once the None of the Above category was introduced was similar, ranging from 2% to 3%.

    When given the option None of the Above, 30% of voters chose to avail of the opportunity.

    Similarly, disaffection with the choice available to the public for Taoiseach was reflected in the 44% who chose None of the Above.

    Enda Kenny, 1/120 Favourite to be Taoiseach, was beaten into fourth position behind Gilmore 21% and Martin 19%.

    A two to one majority of people would like to have the option of voting for None of the Above on the ballot paper.

    And the disenchantment with the political system in Ireland was further reflected in the massive majority who would like to see major political reform.

    Yes 95% No 5%.

  19. CitizenWhy

    Great idea to film answers to the Doorstop Questions. Also remind the candidates to be brief and to the point so they can make sense on YouTUbe.

  20. Gege Le Beau

    The role some economists have played in the financial meltdown should be closely examined (with honourable exceptions of course :-)

    Some were ideological drivers of the neoliberal, trade liberalisation/export led model, others played along working for investment or property firms, predicting soft landings or lower rates of growth.

    Some have apologised for their roles, however, as a whole it has been business as usual from the ‘experts’ meanwhile an overexposed, overly dependant economy continues to produce horror stories, 460,000 unemployed, 300,000 households in negative equity, 100,000 households 3 months in arrears, thousands having their utilities switched off etc.

    A noble few like David McWilliams to their eternal credit called it what it was early on: one giant economic bubble.

    Slam-dunk of economists/complicated financial mechanisms by former trader Nassim Taleb on Newsnight
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABXPICWjFIo&feature=player_embedded#at=91

    Chomsky: Understanding the Crisis – Markets, the State and Hypocrisy
    http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20090210.htm

  21. silentobserver

    Know it’s probably been covered before, but does anyone know what the current legislative status is regarding the Dail and conflicts of interest? For instance; if you have the Dail voting on guaranteeing banks, like Anglo, would it be mandatory for these members to disclose investments such as stocks and shares, property dealings, and deposits in the institutions? If there are any constitutional lawyers viewing this site, can we get your advice on this? Know it’s a long shot, but this must be key to true Dail reform if there’s no mandatory disclosure for conflicts of interest.

  22. Colin

    Your back to your best here David, well done.

    I haven’t heard any candidate say that “we should have cheap property, cheap food, cheap electricity, cheap petrol”. I don’t know why but until we do, we’re screwed and heading for an unprepared default.

  23. Philip

    Can anyone describe the scenario of what will happen as soon as the doo doo inevitably hits the fan?

    The Doo Doo refers to the inevitable admission by all (From IMF, to ECB to Bondholders to…) that no way no how is this money (manufactured out of thin air) will be paid back. I suppose it’s a bit of a prisoner’s dilemma as to who does it first. Timing is of the essense.

    As a matter of utmost urgency David et al should now start advising what we need to do next for forget about giving out about our useless politicians etc. The EU/ ECB are not going to help. Ze Grande Bargain will be some cobbled together nonsense to kick the can down the road…no more.

    David’s Essay should start…There is no more money…ATMs no longer work and your deposits are now frozen. Now what?

    We need guidance NOW and the faster we take evasive action the better.

    • adamabyss

      Yes, this is vital Philip. I asked for this a couple of articles back. We need to be ready for any and all eventualities.

    • Colin

      “David’s Essay should start…There is no more money…ATMs no longer work and your deposits are now frozen. Now what?

      We need guidance NOW and the faster we take evasive action the better.”

      Very well captured there Philip.

      David, please give the country the essay it needs to hear.

    • wills

      Philip.

      The debts can be *wiped* and striked out of the financial game if there is a consensus amongst the power brokers across the board.

      Which will happen.

      Then the question is, who got all the cash, cos its not fair that the system gets replayed with those who got the SWAG in the drivers seat.

      This is where the problem is. The riggers of the system own the system and are never challenged and always come out on top.

      Lets unpick that one, worrying about debts made out of thin air that are easily erased is going where the owners of the system want u too go.

      • Philip

        OK, with you there to a degree. You are assuming a large amount of awareness.

        A system restart with the same old codgers is not an option either. Maybe we should start the essay…why worry about debts? Due diligence on money creation was thrown aside – so the Mr Ten Percents could hive off their part while the rest were left to swing. Indeed, we need to see how it came about that the fractional reserve system came to be so abused and taken from the oversight of nation state.

        In the meantime however, there is an inertia of learning by the populace that needs to be overcome…like are you a citizen, do you know your rights and why it’s not a bad thing to express your disgust by regular protest…until then, the ATMs stop working etc etc etc and we have a lot of babas with pubic hair who really have no clue and may start looking for an FF or Sinn Fein soother before taking a long look at what is really happening.

  24. FULL MOON FRIDAY

    So here we go again only this time we are closer to call .Are you ready ? Do you know how you will cope?
    You saw how badly the Irish Rugby team made simple mistakes ! I wonder why ! And how badly Munster team lost .Now there is another reason why for them.Its a Big Secret and they have lost countless matches all for the same reasons.Who wants to listen anymore .Its not Rugby stupid .

    Ok.Lets share the next experience .Lets watch tonight The Debate .Watch who caves in .Who triumphs .And Why .Who does the Moon like? Its that simple.Soon you will see there is someone else in the Debate too .

    • D Debate

      Imagine you are in your garden and you watch all around you .What you see in the line up are as follows :

      Bulls ( Taureans )

      Gilmore
      Kenny

      Water Fountain ( Cancer )

      Martin

      Sunshine -Fire ( Leo )

      Gormley

      Air ( Libra )

      Adams

      —————————————————–

      There will initially be a fight between the bulls and their horns will interlock and one will fall ( others eg Tony Blair ).Watch their hands remonstrating ( these are the horns pucking along ).

      The Leo Lion ( Gormley )is a powerful sign bigger that it represents and will remain stubborn and outspoken and very visible all the time .It will lead a lot and will be hard to pin down ( others eg Bill Clinton ) .The King is an all I ( plural ) Party .He smiles a lot and always has lots of reasons to do so.

      The Water Fountain ( Martin ) is an inviting place to feel to feel to feel .An Emotion place of solitude .Watch how his verbs will lend itself ‘to feel’business and how he wants you to feel he is your doctor.Its important to contain the water and not allow it spread .The moon has the greates impact on water when in a Pull so watch his emotions swing and check his eyes and watch his tears .

      Air

      We can only enjoy the garden if we can breath and his ( Adams )contribution will always bring a spurt of inteligence to ourselves as though we believe we have become more intelligent in his presence .He is fast and his punch lines will be the fastest.He may become passionate with Gilmore .He is all about speed and never falters ( others eg Mgt Thatcher ) .

      ————————–

      So the favourite will be either the bull , the fountain , the sunshine , or the good air we breath .Take your pick.

      Enjoy.

      • Hi John,
        You’re obviously soothe saying over a nice hot cauldron there! It’s all very educational – I didn’t know I was an “Air” until a couple of minutes ago!
        So now I go to watch Lions, Fountains, Sunshine, Air and I have no doubt – Very much Bull!
        Keep it up John – When Economics fail there’ll always be room for good old fashioned sorcery!

  25. irishminx

    You have matured David McWillaims and now you are who you were made to be.

    Keep soaring. My heart is flying.

    Thank you.

    I am bursting here. :))

  26. DarraghD

    Brilliant article, I’m loving the new phrase that has emerged recently from David, “snap out of it”, absolutely excellent verbage directed at our gang of economically constiptaed political orangutans…

    But there is always room for constructive criticism, I have just finished listening to the article on peopleseconomy.ie, I just can’t bring myself to agree with David’s last comment on the video, to the effect that, “there is nothing unique about the problems in Ireland that cannot be attended to”…

    It seems to be to be a uniquely Irish thing that we are unable to get credible people to present themselves for political office. For the first time in my life I reckon I will spoil my vote because there isn’t one toss pot on the Dublin Mid West constituency ballot paper that I would give a vote to.

  27. Ollie

    Philip says: “Can anyone describe the scenario of what will happen as soon as the doo doo inevitably hits the fan?

    I started reading this site in 2007 after reading that Irish banks stocks had crashed on an american website.

    I then began to realise that irish mainstream media were not covering our real news and started looking elsewhere to find out the truth.

    In 2007/8 reading David’s articles and comments from MK1 (and others here) put me well ahead of the posse and I was well prepared for a bank collapse by the time sept 08 came.

    Since then, David has repeatedly attempted to offer a way out for our politicians, but they continued to take the wrong option at every juncture.

    Even at this late stage David continues to hope that reason will win the day and that a semblance of normality can be salvaged.

    Fair play to him for not giving up.

    We should not give up either and should vote for the best candidate we can even if our constituency offers poor choice.

    However, it seems certain that we are in for a serious crash and it is probably no accident(politician couldn’t be that stupid?).

    Look at what has happened in other countries when there was a monetary crisis if you want to be prepared.

    When people completely loose trust in the currency/banks, usually there’s a run on the banks followed by a run on the shops as people convert paper to tangibles.

    Then bare shelves.
    Then riots and looting.
    Then a police/military response
    Government rations follow (not efficiently done)
    People usually suffer hunger
    Crime gets out of control
    Martial law/ law of the jungle follows(did you see the naked body of a looter draged through the streets of Haiti)
    This downward spiral can continue and can be followed by a severe military/police run state with terrible poverty.
    This is what happens all over the world in corrupt countries.

    Why not here?

  28. Deco

    Serious people.

    That is correct. Serious people. Why are they serious ? Because they are involved in an act to pretend that they are more adult that everybody else.

    And if you can be more adult that everybody else, then supposedly you can treat everybody else as children. You can patronize.

    Patronizing people is the one thing that authority does persistently to the people of this country.

    So yes, there you have it. An adult-child form of chastisment for grownups.

  29. Deco

    Debate in progress. So far all the leaders have been patronizing. Every single one. Gimmemore and Martin seem to be the worst offenders. Gormless must not have been in government for the last four years, and Micky Martin is talking out both sides of his mouth.

  30. george

    David you keep producing the information. But you mention the word establishment several times. According to what the three main political parties are saying, they will only postpone the agony. So I am not going to watch the TV debate. I have no political affiliation, but I’ve read the manifestos, and the most convincing one for me, is the one from Sinn Fein.

    The Country is bankrupt and cannot pay such a debt. And we cannot pay ourselves higher salaries than in the rest of Europe, especially than Germany. And to start to fix the problem, the first thing we ought to do is to tell the banks and the bondholders “off”, and to bring down the value of home loans to the actual value of property.

    And I’m going to vote for Sinn Fein because they are the only ones that are use to deal with extreme difficult situations, and are the only ones that
    could get the bankers and the “establishment” by the scruff of the neck and said “enough is enough”.
    OK still a gamble you may say, but with the other three (the Greens don’t even count in this situation) the people won’t win, of that I’m sure!

    • paulmcd

      +1
      and that’s coming from someone who has denounced SF in the past and someone who is at the extreme end of being a €urophile but FF and the mainstream parties have me totally disillusioned.

      FF/Greens have done so much damage that we may have to leave the €, at least temporarily.

      I say, NO TO RENEGOTIATION – LET’S PLAY HARDBALL!!

      I am a public servant – I do not want my pay to be sourced from IMF/ECB funding, even more so when the rate is usurious.

      I would rather the fun and games of taking a risk and watch when the IMF/ECB quake at the thought of massive loan defaults because Irish public servants cannot be paid.

      • paulmcd

        OK, I will allow for first €100,000 of the €150 billion ECB loan to the Irish banks to be repaid.

        We shall have to inform the ECB that they will have to regard the balance as a necessary QUANTITATIVE EASING.

      • paulmcd

        On a more serious note, I would like to remark that the standard of presentation and public speaking of the younger SF politicians like Doherty and Mac Lochlainn is extremely impressive by comparison with the Irish ‘norm’.

        • Yesterday I posted about Media Manipulation in particular the Irish Mail on Sunday and the “Adams and the Smuggler” Headline. Three pages and a banner headline but absolutely no link made between Adams and the smuggler! So why the headline?
          Another suspicious thing is that the popularity of the only party absolutely against the bailout is falling in the media polls?
          Strange because it seems to be rising on these sites and rising amongst my friends colleagues and aquaintences. I never voted for them before but a lot of people I know see them as the obvious protest vote! So why the subtle fall in the media polls?

          I suspect they’ll continue to fall in the media polls in order to put us off wasting our vote on them?
          Because if they did get in as a partner in Govt. it’s goodbye big salaries! Bye bye to the Tubridy’s and Kenny’s publicly funded ego money. Bye bye big time easy street! In my humble opinion SF have more people rattled because they would most radically change things. The other party’s are looking for a way back to the good times while kowtowing to our new political masters!
          Well hello! There is no going back! It’s now a question of who’s terms we go forward on?
          SF and anti EU/IMF Independents are the only real alternative to the Cosy Cartel of Cap in Hand Compliance!

          • Harper66

            “SF and anti EU/IMF Independents are the only real alternative to the Cosy Cartel of Cap in Hand Compliance!”

            +1

            I think that without the pressure from SF and anti EU/IMF indpendents the issue of EU IMF loans would not be the major issue that it is now.

            I for one am most grateful to them,they pushed this issue when the establishment was doing there utmost to discredit them.

            They have also managed to highlight the lazy partisan journalism in Ireland. Regardless of your thoughts on SF economic policy to dismiss it as stuff from the Teletubbies as Fionnan Sheehan did in the Indo without entering into any kind of serious debate is bully boy tactics and should be left in the school yard where it belongs…..by the way how is Fionnans wife Averial Power getting on in her attempt to get elected for FF?

          • Harper66

            Should read Averil Power.

  31. shtove

    For those looking for information – the UK and Ireland are particularly poorly served by the internet. You really have to look at US websites, where a fair degree of interest in Ireland is shown by people who understand economics and finance.

    Easily the best Irish website is namawinelake:

    http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/

  32. “Faced with the choice between changing our mind and proving the there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy with the proof.”

    Nice Galbraith quote and an excellent piece, David.

    Ireland must default.

    There is absolutely no shame in defaulting on bank loans which failed the risk management test. You DON’T advance big moneys against bubble-inflated land prices. Never. They, not the Irish people must pay the penalty.

  33. THE LEADERS DEBATE IN DEPTH ANALYSIS

    The winner in the facial acrobatics section tonight was E. Kenny.

    The Altar boy who fucked up the Health system had a hissy fit, his name does not deserve to be mentioned here.

    In the discipline ‘Look Ma I can pet my own back’ discipline, J. Gormley made it first.

    The chap who shouted ‘Economic Treason’ at Biffo facilitated the finance bill, E. Gi,,more won the special award for missed opportunities calling for a general strike when it became clear that Ireland is supposed to bailout German, French and UK Banksters.

    The guy with the pepper/salt designer face seemed a little lost to me. He gets a mention for putting up a brave face, and for trying hard to avoid the Napoleon gesture all evening long.

    That’s all folks, it was a complete waste of space.

    VOTE INDEPENDENTS!

  34. paulpr

    Deco -I’m interested to know your views of Australia’s impending downfall. I’m living out here now & the country is definitely in the throes of a resources boom. Although it’s been hit hard by the Queensland floods & Cyclone Yasi, as long as India & China still want the stuff in the ground, the party looks like it will keep going. The only wobble I can see is if oil prices continue to rise (similar to 2008) & the world cops on that an economy mostly based on the availability of cheap oil can’t work if it doesn’t have cheap oil, & the whole thing comes crashing down again.
    Right now in my neighbourhood, shoeboxes with corrugated iron roofs are selling for about $1million, so it definitely feels like Ireland 2006. Your thoughts?

    • Excuse my response, Paul, but Australia’s real estate bubble is the world’s biggest – bigger than Ireland’s – and we’ll need much more than our trade with China to avert the consequences.

      It may be difficult to believe, but we made your mistakes lending into a real estate bubble – and then some.

      This year will see the bubble pricked. Australians, most still in denial, believe we were somehow smarter than everywhere else. Oh yeah?

      The Australian government flooded money into the property bubble via the First Home Buyers’ Boost in 2009 to keep it up there and buoyant, but it’s now running out of tricks.

      No doubt we, too, will be told our taxes are needed to support the big four banks, the CBA, Westpac, the ANZ and NAB, who are still reporting billions in obscenely derived profits (bubble-inflated property prices).

      Time to reap the whirlwind has arrived in the land of Oz.

    • Deco

      Paulpr.
      Well, I am basing my assessment on the views of two Americans. Both predicted the subprime debacle in the US. Both are influenced by Austrian Economics thinking. If you are an admirer of the writings of Paul Krugman, then you can dismiss this critique.

      i) Jim Chanos. He reckons that China is a mega-bubble. And he reckons that Australia is exposed.

      ii) Mike Shedlock. http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/02/pool-of-greater-housing-fools-in.html
      Shedlock reckons that the banks in Australia are highly exposed, to commercial real estate loans, in a retail market that is living off excessive margins and unsustainable consumption levels.

      Here is a question. What is the Australian equivalent of Anglo Irish bank ? What Aussie bank is providing the highest number of commercial real estate loans for Shopping Malls etc…

      • Deco

        Both take the view that Australian lifestyle is tending towards unsustainable levels, and that the currency will drop when the China stops consuming massive quantities of steel, copper, and cement.

        Also another similar perspective is from Hugh Hendry (a Scottish Hedge Fund specialist who also has Austrian leanings).

  35. Tim

    Folks, The sheeple will vote for FF/FG/LAB *sigh* The enlightened will vote for #IND or #SF #ge11 There, I said it.

  36. Philip

    Am still laughing at John Allen’s sorcery and predictions. Bang on the money. SF won. The rest were rubbish. To be fair Enda held his own. I think it was too crowded to allow a good fisty cuffs.

    SF might get my vote yet and any Ind that’s not playing the business as usual card.

  37. Incident

    David,

    Just listened to Brian Lenihan and Pearse Doherty along with another 1,000,000 souls (allegedly) on Morning Ireland.

    Did I hear correctly?
    BL stated to the Nation that “last September the banking debt was segregated from the sovereign debt” and also in the same month “the bank guarantee ceased”.

    Somebody please tell me that I actually heard these statements or am I really losing the plot.

    If my hearing and sanity are entact, what is going on? Who is telling the truth?

    • Deco

      I thought the banking gaurantee was ended, and a new gaurantee installed in it’s place, which amounted to much the same thing.

      Lenihan is behaving like a lawyer on this issue.

  38. D Debate

    Personally I thought the horns interlocked between Gilmore and Dame Enda .Had Fagan ( ml noonan ) been there he would have physically beat the crap out our Gilmore for upseting his dame.Its not surprising how the Dame refers always to ‘hairdressers’ in his vision of job creation.Just look at his waves and maybe that tells us something.Perhaps he will be talking next that he will be ‘combing the interest rates down ‘and blowing ‘the possessions away’…..while fagan snneers in the corner to bite anyone who dare ‘fluffs his image ‘.The Dame is a real Doll that Fagen got for christmas and is used to hide the ugly face of the bulldog because he knows what it was like last time he was leader of the party .Incidently both Fagen and The Dame are Taureans so we have a masculine and a feminine game of politics at play here .Its almost a Gay Bar.

  39. Full Moon Arriving to a Place near U

    Please Drive Slowly

  40. uchrisn

    This website is an excellent initiative. Actually the main way that the ‘insiders’ gain from the ‘outsiders’ is lack of education of the outsiders. This is enforced by the grip of the insiders over the media orgainisations. In Latin America some governments purposly spend hardly anything on education so that the poor cannot wake up to the injustices in society.
    Then the insiders own the banks, newpapers, journalists, and politicans through funding and bribery, often in each case the same family has a foot in each one of these areas.
    To be honest we are lucky in Ireland and much better off than some of these impoverished completely unjust countries.
    However these countries serve as an example that an elite run a country in an unjust way and influence their opinions and votes so that they make the wrong choices.
    In Ireland the media is obviously biased towards the interest of the rich.
    People like Morgan Kelly, PHD from Yale, David McWilliams – extensive experience, Brian Lucey, Stephen Kinsella et al have been given very little media coverage, even though they have the best qualifications and been consitently right over the last number of years.
    Nouriel Roubini, Joesph Stiltz noble peace prizes in economics, other leading professors at New York University, Harvard, Yale etc, Simon Johnson ex Chief economist IMF, Jacques Attali supervisor of All Europen Universities quality system all say that what is happening in Ireland is unjust and unfair. In fact I would say almost every qualified person with no personal interest in the financial industry agrees with this.
    You don’t see any of this in the media in Ireland. Why?

    • uchrisn

      I should say that ‘not see any’ means ‘see very little exposure compared to the misinformation’

    • Deco

      I am sceptical about Morgan Kelly. If you relying on Morgan Kelly to warn you that Irish property you would only find out when it was too late.

      Morgan Kelly gets a lot of credit for saying we were bust, three years after even Eddie Hobbs had spotted that it was a bubble. And Kelly never noticed lifestyle debt at all.

      • Deco

        What I am saying is that a lot of people, including David McW seen this “crack-up boom, crack-up bust” credit crash scenario a long time before Morgan Kelly.

        The Irish Times needed somebody to make it look as if they were critical of the whole thing, and they had nobody. Morgan Kelly filled that void.

      • Colin

        Deco,

        Absolutely correct there. Here’s a good analysis.

        http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35787

        Seems like the media refuse to credit David McWilliams for anything, preferring University academics like Kelly who enjoy safe, secured, well paid and excellent working conditions.

        • Deco

          The Irish Times makes a lot of noise about Morgan Kelly, at the moment. He writes an article for them about four times per year.

          The IT had Dan McLoughlin writing in it’s Business Supplement every week of the year, for over a decade.

          The IT also had Austin Hughes writing in it’s Business Supplement every week of the year, for over a decade.

          In addition both got opportunities to pen articles that were given near IT Editorial status.

          Plus that nonsense in the IT business supplement where a prominent careerist from the top of the Irish management elite would get a positive write up every week on the back page. Complete with a cartoon showing the said high flyer smiling and playing with his golf clubs or helicopter.

          And then we had the Property (Porn) Supplement.

          You cannot have a knowledge economy, when the place is rife with such an amount of well crafted, well choreographed deceit.

  41. uchrisn

    While I was in said Latin American country I visited the uncle of my room mate. The uncle wrote some articles for a daily newspaper. He lived in a massive estate with a Mansion with home cinema, tennis courts pool, maids personal gaurds the whole shebang. The rest of his family were comfortable but nothing like that. I started asking myself, does a journalist earn that much offically in a country with an average wage of 3,000 usd a year.
    L
    In Ireland it might not be as obvious as that but you can be sure that the majority of guys are were and are still who were writing about the need to ‘hold our nerve’ or basically take money from the poor to give to the rich bankers, are getting paid by the same bankers in some way to do this. This is all legal of course. The money and power of financial institutions is vast and they know how to protect their interests.
    So I appreciate guys like David and Simon Johnson who are not afraid to ruffle the feathers of the insiders.
    What is the global solution to this problem?
    Well education so people can undertsand what is going on. Then more people finding information away from traditional sources, perhaps on the Internet. Project Syndicate is a good website for example. Ultimatly there will never be a perfect solution to some groups of people abusing others however I think it is important to recognise what is being done wrong and comminicate this effectively to the ‘abuser’.
    I would still like Mr. Lenihan, the Dept of Finance and the ERSI to apologise to the Irish people formally for the mess they have made.

    • Deco

      I agree. This is exactly what is going on.
      The media is the information gatekeeper.

      For ten years the Irish Times gave Dan McLoughlin, chief economist of the Bank of Ireland space to pen an article in the IT Business Supllement every Friday. Mostly it was the same propaganda the whole time. Telling people to leverage up on debt, with “bullishly optimistic” renditions of a confident future. And for a similar length of time the Irish Times had Austin Hughes doing the same. Every week.

      I never read the Old Schitzo’s Property Supplement. But I am sure if you did research, you find similar rubbish from Estate Agents.

      Another example was the way the RTE Evening Snooze editions on days when warnings were issued on property and debt levels. I watched this. Basically, the Economist Magazine or somebody who issue a warning. And in the Snooze, RTE would start with Fergal Bowers outside a hospital in provincial Ireland. The HSE story would go on for fifteen minutes. It was a clever ploy. It was designed to get people in the 20s to change the channel or tune out. Basically, when you are in your 20s you don’t care about health stories. You feel healthy and young, and confident. So you switch it off and miss the rest of the story. And I suppose there is a certain element of contrast being used, to relegate the financial issue. This was done repeatedly.

      • —-This is exactly what is going on.
        The media is the information gatekeeper.—-

        +1

        For some time Labor refused to participate in The Frontline due to the format of the program, rightly so!

        Wouldn’t you love to have some flies on the wall in RTE and listen into some board discussions.

        The whole notion of what they called a debate is a sad joke. A set of pre fabricated questions, a fully stage managed and live less event is presented as a debate. This is nothing but an Illusion of democracy.

        I am afraid the successfully made a farce out of the referendum on the Lisbon treaty, and they are making a farce out of this election, again.

        Disturbing, very disturbing to say the least.

      • uchrisn

        exactly the same thing happened with the news in the south American country. There it was so obvious it was funny. The first 15 minutes of the news they were interviewing crying children and angry parents at some small school where the ‘help the poor’ candiate had to cancel at the last minute. Only if you watched the full news in the last 30 seconds the ‘help the poor candidate’ had had to meet with George Bush Senior who dropped by unscheduled that day. Priceless. You couldn’t make it up but those guys did.

    • Deco

      Was in Italy on vacation around 2002. Turned on the TV. There was this ad that consisted of somebody buying something in a shop. And strangers on the bus, and in the lift would say thanks. This was about the same time as Dubya, Greenspin, were extorting Americans to save the US economy by going deeper into debt. In fact the regime made living beyond one’s means into a patriotic virtue. It was saturation level stuff. And the media lapped it up. And Greenspan lowered the interest rate to facilitate greater leveraging and consumption.

      And in Italy Berlosconi (in control of both the private sector and public sector media) was trying to pull on the heartstrings of Italians to get them to also spend money they did not have on junk they did not need. Except, because this was Italy, most people just ignored the advertising, being sceptical about such gimickry.

      In Ireland, around the same time we had IBEC and it’s parlaimentary proxy, Mama Harney, telling us that “we must not talk ourselves into a recession”. It was pure guilt-trip drivel. Ditherer went on with the same nonsense. Again the media had this scam called “Don’t mention the R-word”. I realized that the whole boom was based on deceit and false psychology. And sure enough, eventually the excesses built up, until it crashed in a heap.

  42. vincent

    Money as Debt II Promises Unleashed

  43. coldblow

    Good article again. I know why David is doing it but I’m not too keen on the Reformation metaphor for the idea of the Irish people having a direct, “unmediated”, relationship with The Truth (although one has to find one’s analogies where one may, know what I mean).

    My (limited) experience of discussion with “Born Agains” is of dealing with sweeping assertions that everything is contained in the Bible (centuries of religious thought and learning being discarded out of hand). From a historical point of view you have to ask yourself whose interests were ultimately served by the Reformation and why it was that the various peoples of Europe were given no choice in following their conscience (be they Catholic or Protestant) but had to accept the dictates of their respective monarchs (or ‘sovereign’ to add a contemporary feel). (On a side note I remember a quiz once on RnaG involving fíor-Ghaeil from the Fíor-Fíor-Ghaeltacht, older people you would imagine would have had more than (say) a passing familiarity with the rosary, and yet who when asked knew nothing about it.)

    I have my doubts about the ability or motivation (same thing?) of people to absorb and evaluate this kind of information. A worry would be that if radical changes were made chaos might result in that mé féinism is so ingrained and, although people are generally kind and well-intentioned on a personal level, I wonder about our ability to act in a cohesive way for the collective good. Also, I would foresee some using simplistic concepts in support of narrow self interest (not that that would be any different from now, just that it would be different people doing it).

    But having said that, it’s got to be a good idea.

    • coldblow

      I just looked through the site (done this in the wrong order doh!) and it’s good – clear and concise. Solid qualified contributors. I note Stephen Kinsella opposes leaving the Euro – I suppose such compromises are inevitable?

  44. Deco

    The debate last night was nonsense.

    I proposes a proper debate.

    IBEC on one side. ICTU on the other.
    Then let them do their horsetrading.
    And let Brussels set the parameters.

    Everybody else can be ignored.

    Because this is far closer to reality.

    • coldblow

      Why do we have these debates anyway? Is it a fashion? I imagine it started, at a guess, 15 years ago in the US and now it’s accepted as part of the game here. In Amusing Ourselves To Death Postman describes 19th debates in the US which were all-day affairs, or lasting several days, where the speakers would go into great detail and the audiences in packed auditorium would soak it all up. The audience is different now and it seems nowadays to be more a test of ‘character’ or ‘spirit’ than of argument (seeing as the format doesn’t allow for these to be developed in any depth). Also the subject matter (finance and economics) seems to be more complicated these days.

      • adamabyss

        Attention spans these days don’t go beyond several minutes, never mind several days. I personally suspect that the subject matters in bygone days were just as complicated and (possibly more) urgent and pressing, especially in terms of food, housing and employment (or lack thereof) in this part of the world. Which still exist (and worse so) on those terms in the contemporary ‘developing’ world.

        Large parts of the technologies that we are swathed in these days add nothing but negative value to our lives (and reduce our focusing abilities) while attempting to mask or over complicate the basic underlying issues that face all men, women and children. Namely that everyone should have the opportunity to eat, sleep, work and love.

      • Deco

        You can’t have a test of character involving the five muppets lined up last night. All of them would fail. Some of them have broken laws on multiple occassions.

        Best to something more sophisticated than character like political tactics and hard sell techniques.

        • Deco

          Should have been
          Best to have them measured on something more sophisticated, and suited to them, rather than character, have it based on like political tactics and hard sell techniques. Which is what you had in evidence.

          And you can forget about problem-solving ability.

          • coldblow

            Or Tubbers could probe them for ‘emotional intelligence’. If they show they can empathize with the rest of us, that they are ‘down to earth’, can even laugh at themselves then they are ok, the audience can applaud and we can all sleep soundly at night.

            No matter how hard they try to present themselves as ‘regular guys’ politicians are clearly unlike the resto of us. The psychologist Oliver James argues that they all suffer from (sometimes severe) personality disorders. Most likely that’s what it takes.

            Of course, that’s all, or should be, beside the point. What matters is what they will do, and they won’t tell us. We’ll find out in due course, but it’ll be too late by then…

        • Colin

          Deco,

          Jack O’Connor must have read your recent post here, he came out this afternoon to say that “an ELECTED SINGLE PARTY GOVERNMENT LIKE FINE GAEL would be bad for the country”, so there you have it, O’Connor thinks the unions should have more power than the electorate because the Unions have the country’s best interests at heart more than the people of Ireland.

          Has he got wind that a FG + Ind Government would take on the unions and tear up the Good Friday – I mean the Croke Park Agreement?

          • Deco

            Oh, so Jack O’Connor is against Single Party government.

            Does that mean that he voted for the PDs when McDowell put that famous poster up in Ranelagh, titled “Single Party government no thanks”.

            I am getting worried about Jack O’Connor – he is spending too much time listening to Michael McDowel…..a lethal combination…

  45. debate last night was rubish, should have been on single topic like the UK debates. In fact, as they debate Rome burns, there is only one topic worth debating, the bank debt that is crushing this economy. Re dmcw website above, its pretty goofy and horrendous, can’t make head nor tail of it, and it does a disservice to its contributors, though the kinsella contributor had a set of rubbish arguments against moving our of the euro, that were inane in the extreme. But there is no coherent message on the site, or coherent set of information and facts and everything appears to be a fudge.

    Anyways, first efforts often fail:) fair dues for the intent to all involved. It was so bad:) it spurred me to do a companion site called http://www.bankpoll.net. Which may turn out to be more rubbish than above, but you never know!

    I’ve decided to focus on international observers what they are saying about our debt. So far its been one days notice on this, so there’s little content. I’ve emailed some people without reply. I’d appreciate links etc or anyone can lend a hand with building content.

    I’ll put up some forum software alongside it this afternoon, so people can suggest improvements, content etc

    oh yeah, the site is skeletoned at http://www.bankpoll.net

    Decided on that name because this election needs to be above all, a citizens poll on what to do with the banks and the financial crisis being wrought by our deflationary spiral into default.

    Hopefully soon, I’ll finish the skeleton and start feeding in useful information for citizens.

  46. “We all know that knowledge is power and we also know that if knowledge is power, those with power will try to limit the amount of knowledge disseminated. The easiest way to ration anything is to charge for it. So if you give something away for free, it empowers people and allows them to make proper choices for themselves. This rule holds for the average person as well as politicians”

    This is key.

    This is not merely a question of Economics, which David is a specialist in, it is also a question of understanding the Psychology of Hierarchical Power Systems.

    Which are VERY similar to Family Abuse Dynmaics.

    The Abuser holds the Power, and the rest of the Family, (or Society) for whatever reasons, ‘adapt’ to that Power disparity. Hence the denial and cover-up all too obvious in the way the Government, Bankers and Corporations have handled things Econimic thus far.

    We also see the same with regard to the widespread abuse of children in Institutional Settings; both Chuirch and State have attempted to deny, then cover-up, then shift the blame or scapegoat; to do ANYTHING but put their hands up in remorse and make the appropriate moves towards restorative Justice, in spite of their claims to be working for the good of Society.

    The basis of any society is very much in how the chidlren are treated, what underlying psychology is crafted, or emerges as a result….

    I KNOW of a number of Politicans, on all sides, who attended Boarding Schools in the 60s, and who witnessed serious abuse, and also experienced abuse, and who to this day take the view that it was ‘character forming’.

    I applaud David’s approach to information being made available, and explicable.

    Honesty and Empathy are the anti-dotes to the abuse of Power.

    • Deco

      Not too sure whether your analysis is correct, or the school classroom analogy.

      But one thing definitely is clear. Authority in this country seems to regard it as manifest destiny that it shall treat the rest of us like children. The level of patronizing nonsense is monumental.

      • What I am inferring is that the psychlogy of manipulative relationships is what is driving Goverenance.

        In my own experience, I find that treating children as people, albeit smaller ones, with less experience, yet with feelings, and meanings and insights of their won, that treating them with respect, honesty and being willing to lISTEN to them works both for them and for adults.

        As we KNOW, the Irish State and it’s Institutions do not treat the Irish people in such manner.

        The Limits of Liberty programme made that quite clear, in historical terms.

        A cursory, yet honest review of Irelands history under the British would suggest the same.

    • CitizenWhy

      How many times must a man say “Yes, Sir” before you stop calling him a man?

    • coldblow

      Hey I said something like that. All families are conspiracies – heard it somewhere – and countries seem to be similar. A lot of this stuff is going on in the unconscious. You can find bits and pieces and hold them up and say: look what I found. The reply, as in that old Harry Enfield ad, can be: That bloke’s a nutter!

      “The basis of any society is very much in how the children are treated” So whaddya say, are you in favour (as a matter of principle) of both parents working?

      • coldblow

        The reason I ask that is because James sees early child care as the single most important social issue (subject of his book They F**k You Up).

      • No, actually, I am in favour of less work. If you look carefully at matters, you will see that the bulk of the wealth we work so hard for is concentrated, through various mechanisms in the hands of a few, and we spend less time nurturing our relationships and our communities than we do working, mostly to enrich those who do bugger all except pride themselves in their great wealth and superior status. I include the hierarchy of The Roman Catholic Church in this.

        Oliver James other book, “Affluenza” makes that point clearly, and without apology.

        The quality of our lives matters, and at the heart of that is the quality of the time we have to nurture each other.

        Our lives cannot be reduced to the mesaurement of the GDP.

  47. murnblood

    Can we not let the bond holders burn themselvs?

    If they were presented with the option if they take their money out of our economy in the nex12 months they will suffer a 90% discount a 80% discount after 24 months 70% after 36 months and so on.

    This will leave the ball in their court ant it would be their decision as to how much they want to get burned for.

    In effect this is a guarentee of up to 100% of your deposits you just have to leave those deposits with us a bit longer.

    • I agree.

      Burn them. And we have to also recognise the machinations of the IMF as a fact, and expose it.

      The Irish people have been manipulated by nasty, greedy, ugly, dysfunctional people – both State and Church, as Institutions, are revealed as utterly sociopathic. Those involved show no remorse, no mercy and cannot be trusted.

      The Fine Gael ‘Valentines Card’ shows just how grim they are… intelelctually and psychologically.

      http://finegael2011.com/valentine.asp

You must log in to post a comment.
× Hide comments