February 2, 2011

Give employers a good reason to hire, not fire

Posted in Irish Independent · 126 comments ·
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Tonight all over Ireland, people who employ other people will go to bed and the last thought in their heads will be: “Who will I fire tomorrow?”

What can we do to change that thought so that the last thought in their heads becomes: “Who will I hire tomorrow?”

Can the change of government change this conversation? How might this shift come about whereby the people who employ others — the only people who can drag this economy upwards — look more favourably on the idea of hiring an extra worker?

What we do know about economics is that people react to incentives. If you make it cheaper or profitable for people to do something, they will do it. By extension, as taxes are rising, if you make it tax efficient for people to do something, they will do it too.

If you doubt this, think about why we have ghost estates. We have them because our State made it tax efficient for a developer to build in the middle of nowhere on all classes of tax avoidance schemes. The reason we have so many car parks is because they were designed to allow people with large tax bills to avoid paying tax.

Why are the US multinationals here? Because we make it cheaper for them to be here rather than elsewhere because we charge them less tax.

Think about housing in general: by giving mortgage interest tax relief, the State jaundiced people’s decisions about whether to rent or buy via a ‘tax sweetener’.

This, of course, benefited the banks and the builders enormously. As well as being a form of corporate welfare for the financial and construction sectors, the State might also have had as an ideology a notion to create a home-owning democracy where having a house meant you had a stake in society. Whatever the reason for it, making it tax efficient to own houses led more people to buy houses than would otherwise be the case.

So we know in economics that people act in response to incentives. We also know people do the opposite. If you tax something to make it more expensive, those who were going to buy that thing, buy something else — or don’t buy at all.

Let’s think about hiring a person. Who makes that decision? The person himself/herself who wants to be hired doesn’t. Obviously they might make the best of themselves by improving their qualifications, but the problem about being on the dole is that you can’t force people to value you.

But maybe we can do something else. Traditionally, many economists stress you can’t interfere in the markets. I don’t happen to believe that is the case, particularly when the market isn’t working. If our objective is to reduce the level of unemployment, then make it easy to hire. How do you make it easy? You give a tax credit to the guy who wants to hire or who might be thinking of it. This is what we did with houses — we gave a tax credit to build, so why not do it with our own people?

Why not give the prospective employer a personal or corporate tax credit to employ people? But where would we get the money to do this? Well here’s a suggestion.

It may have escaped your attention in the blizzard of economic and financial news over the past two years, but Ireland lent the three most delinquent and bust banks an astonishing figure of €31bn in 2010.

If you add the interest costs over the proposed 15-year work out of the banking plan, the total cost to the Exchequer is estimated to be €58.55bn — for more details on this see this link

Obviously, this is the worst sort of madness. But luckily there is an opportunity with a new government to change all this. A new government could decide to spend this money differently. Interestingly, for the main political parties who maintain that we stick to the EU/IMF plan, this borrowing has been given the green light by our ‘partners’. We have issued a large promissory note in order to cover these losses. We could simply tear this up and begin the process of bank debt default.

We have no moral obligation to pay for the gambling debts of these institutions and therefore we do not have to. And this week key global financial players, such as George Soros, said we would be mad to pay this bill.

Interestingly, instead of wasting €3.9bn a year on these institutions, which is what it would cost us per year to pay the debts of these bust banks, we could put that money to work helping employers. Close Anglo, Irish Nationwide and EBS. Take away their banking licences. Then they will no longer be the Central Bank’s problem; they will a problem for some liquidator somewhere.

Use the €3.9bn to give tax credits to employers to employ people. This sum would be worth €2,166 per employee in the country. If the money was ringfenced for smaller companies (that cannot engage in the accounting high jinks that the larger corporates can do to avoid tax) the figure per employee could be increased dramatically.

By doing this, we could increase the incentive to employ hugely. For every extra person an employer takes on, they get a tax credit. Surely this is better than giving the same employer a tax credit to build a car park?

In so doing, we change the game. The employer begins to ask the ‘who will I hire tomorrow’ question. This becomes a virtuous circle and the Government is simply transferring the incentive to invest away from buildings, car parks and houses and on to an incentive to invest in people.

We can therefore use the desperate situation of bailing out the banks to the advantage of the citizens and when potential employers go to bed, there will be a different, more optimistic thought on their mind.

David McWilliams has designed and will teach a new 10-week diploma in economics called ‘Economics without Boundaries’ starting February 14. See Independent Colleges


  1. adamabyss

    subscribe.

  2. wills

    David.

    Common *business* sense generates wealth and prosperity for everyone.

    The insiders rigged system *boom and bust* sense generates wealth for the few.

    • wills

      AIB n Bank of Ireland n ANGLO n the rest of them seem to be only interested in the *boom n bust* way of running their banking business and this contravenes constitutional obligations for one, and surely it contravenes their banking license remit also.

  3. rizlaplus

    “”Ireland lent the three most delinquent and bust banks an astonishing figure of €31bn in 2010.”"

    If that doesn’t make a person weep ….. !

  4. adamabyss

    Good article David. I like this plan.

  5. John Q. Public

    In other words the bond-holders will have to be burnt. Tell us something we don’t know. We then use the saved money to create jobs, nothing new in that. Wages have got too high here and the benefits are too good. Many small private sector firms have actually got to compete with the welfare state in order to attract new staff.

  6. BrianMc

    As David points out, economic policies can provide the incentives to cultivate growth; the next Government absolutely *must* devise & implement correctly such policies.
    Here are 30 ideas that can realistically be implemented to cultivate Enterprise & Innovation, & on Healthcare & Education Reform: http://goo.gl/2kraj

    Regards,
    @BriMcS

  7. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by David McWilliams, Mark Browne, An Exiled Derry Man , John O'Regan, Andrew Brennan and others. Andrew Brennan said: Ireland lent the three most delinquent and bust banks an astonishing figure of €31bn in 2010. – #gpgov – http://t.co/A1k9BbO [...]

  8. Harper66

    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/03/michael-lewis-ireland-201103?currentPage=all

    excellent article from Micheal Lewis outlining the disasterous state our country is in and describing in detail who has caused this and why.

    a truly accurate picture of Ireland today and cuts the bullshit spin of Mehole Martin and company

    I am goiong to print it out leave a copy by my front door for any canvassers that call, will also try to get as many people as possible to read it.

    • Deco

      Seen a poster today of MM. Beside him was the word “Real”. Hilarious.

      • Harper66

        Meholes only input into the election campaign so far has been to act like a mischievous little gremlin trying to frustrate and twart any attempt at real debate on any issues of consequence.

        It really is a new low even for FF. They are beneath contempt.

        I thought Vincent Browne showed himself to be a lightweight in the way he handled Sommerville, Constantin G, and Matthews last night.He is more at home talking about empty chairs and quotas for women in the Dail. Everytime Sommerville tried to make a point Browne cut him off.

        The lack of any forum on TV or radio for informed debate is worrying.

    • Fiona

      Just finished reading that article you posted up.
      Wow!
      Thanks for posting it up there.

      • Harper66

        Yes, I thought it was a great article.Mixed emotions when reading it, disgust and anger when you see what has been going on under our noses and a glimmer of hope that at least the truth is getting out…..

    • BiggyWiggy Rogers

      That’s a brilliant article. I never understood why people in Ireland were not out on the streets a la Egypt when, without any consultation, the public ended up taking on impossibly huge private banking debts.

      …… I read Breakfast With Anglo by Simon Kelly.. the descriptions he gives of the way money was handed out would make any sane person shiver…

      I am old enough to have witnessed two major property crashes in the U.K… I married an Irish man and came to live here in 1990 – I recall saying back in 2004 it was only a matter of time before the bubble burst here, only to be scoffed at by folk.. and told quite aggressively that ‘if’ it happened it would be a ‘soft’ landing..

      What is also interesting in this article, is the terrible way Ahern responded to being told the whole pack of cards would collapse by Morgan Kelly so long ago.. given Ahern’s recent offering of the fact he ‘wished someone had told him’..!!!

      Thanks Harper66… I have shared it on my facebook page.. and will post elsewhere too..

      • Harper66

        Belinda,

        I think it was the driver Lewis hired whom made a very insightful point when he commented that Irish people will soak up the pain until there comes point when they explode. The problem is identifying when or what the trigger will be…. the next two years will be brutal, there must come a time when people say enough is enough.

        There is a clip of Morgan Kelly on Prime time with Brendan Keenan Spoofer in chief of the Irish Independent – Keenan exudes the arrogance, ignorance and hubris of the establishment at the time. Keenan can hardly hide his contempt for Kelly – it is almost a case of Keenan being offended at the thought of kelly questioning the establishment.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11CCxv2ueiQ&playnext=1&list=PLD1F65750D15D0E1E

        I worry also that while the Irish may not take to streets like the Egyptians, they may find an outlet for their anger by voting in more and more extrmeme parties. Kellys article in November in the Irish Times contains some chilling forecasts the one I found most worrying was “As ordinary people start to realise that this thing is not only happening, it is happening to them, we can see anxiety giving way to the first upwellings of an inchoate rage and despair that will transform Irish politics along the lines of the Tea Party in America. Within five years, both Civil War parties are likely to have been brushed aside by a hard right, anti-Europe, anti-Traveller party that, inconceivable as it now seems, will leave us nostalgic for the, usually, harmless buffoonery of Biffo, Inda, and their chums.”

        link to full article – http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1108/1224282865400.html

        • Colin

          Keenan is not an economist, he’s a reporter of business stories and represents insiders so just ignore what he’s saying about economics. He looks like he’s just walked off the set of a horror movie anyway.

        • BiggyWiggy Rogers

          What an Interesting video to view with retrospect :)…. It clearly examples how it’s very difficult to go against the tide of common belief.. so many don’t want to hear… & the majority of people always follow the herd. So full marks to Morgan. Thanks for that Harper. Makes you really wonder doesn’t it, why, given Morgan’s point about the fact nobody would lend to the Irish Banks, Lenihan didn’t cop on..

          Interesting article there from him in the IT too.. here’s another one to consider from Reuters..

          “Analysis: Cut in EU bailout rate no panacea for Ireland” http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/01/us-ireland-debt-idUSTRE7105PT20110201

          I don’t know how extreme the party options will become.. I can’t see where that type of extremism will come from, given the nature of the country, and contrary to the view we are danger of a hard right turn, I would have actually expected a hard left, but that’s just my years speaking, I’m not an economist.

          What I do wish is that common sense was at the helm, not hard left or hard right…. I can dream I suppose..

          • Harper66

            it seems I posted the same link as you ten minutes later…whats that they say about great minds?

            agreed common sense has been abandoned, I am finding reading the Irish papers a deeply frustrating expierence hence like you I am trawling newspapers of the world for some balanced reporting.

            Just when I thought FF could do no more harm to us they bring on this debate bullsh~t – which is of course been fed by the media and in particular TV3 and Vincent Browne. I am really begining to dislike Browne he is as david would say a “consummate insider” protecting his own patch and ensuring his own ratings remian high…what does he care for the pain that is being inflicted on the average people in Ireland?

            As for people in hard times turning to the left…Germany after the Wiemar republic sets a worry precedent. I think MM and the rest of FF are so caught up in “the Party” they are oblivious to the damage they are doing to Ireland and to our democracy.

    • Thanks for posting that Harper. It was an A1 read.

      “They had gone from being abnormally poor to being abnormally rich, without pausing to experience normality”

      I have been saying this for 10 years.

      • Harper66

        Paul,

        and it seems we are going back to being abnormally poor.A case of death by a thousand cuts.

        I was in my local bank today, the girl behind the counter told me there has been a stream of terrified customers in to her all day asking about fixing their mortgages….

        I fear this year and next will see unprecedented levels of hardship inflicted on the average citizens of Ireland….meanwhile the media circus that is the coverage of GE11 will concern itself with empty chairs
        and one-upmanship.

  9. philly5

    Tax credit to small employers for each person they employ. Tax credit to corporations for each 100 people they employ?

  10. CitizenWhy

    How about letting only those employers who hire vote on certain grave matters, such as whether Ireland should stop sending money to the German, UK and French banks and to the IMF/ECB and default instead. Certainly you cannot trust any of the leading political parties to make this decision.

  11. Yup. Cut personal income taxes, raise land taxes. 99.5% will be better off.

  12. BrianC

    Excellent idea. Remove all tax incentives from property development and divert into manufacturing and service enterprises.

    If Ireland were to invest properly in its water infrastructure and address the Nitrate & Phosphate directives 50,000 jobs could be created in one year.

    The manufacturing and service industry can be kick started with access to credit backed by tax incentives and removing ridiculous red tape. We Irish find ten reasons why not to do it rather than focus on the one reason why it should be done.

    • Deco

      I am sceptical that that many jobs can be created from water infrastructure, in a country where water is so common that most people regard it as something they should get for free…

      • coldblow

        Yeah, and they think just because there’s air everywhere that should be free too. Where do they get this sense of entitlement..?

    • coldblow

      BrianC

      Re water I agree with this fellow (irisheonomy):

      “48. Brian Woods Says:
      February 2nd, 2011 at 9:00 am
      @ MC: “The idea that the afflicted countries can implement reforms that will eventually allow them to grow out of their debt burden is a mirage.”
      Clear as a bell! No further comment is needed.
      The chicanery with the Euro is probably related to the insolvency of US and UK. If the Euro can be rubbished, it gives the other two some breathing space, but not much.
      Money does not grow. Its created electronically at very little cost. Now food, energy and clean water. Well, they’re an entirely different matter. I suggest ye sweat a little over the latter trio and give the money bit a rest. If the energy cost of energy extraction, production and supply increases faster than real yield: That’s it – game over!”

      We need to think strategically.

      Also agree with the rest of your post. DMcW’s ideas will be dismissed as ‘pop economics’ by some who claim to know better. Maybe they do and maybe we should just sit and wait on events – but somehow I doubt it.

  13. I don’t like a government hand influencing the market. What happens when the tax credit stops? All those people get unemployed again if they are on the margin.

    Take away the minimum wage and everyone would be employed. Minimum wages do nothing but create unemployment.

    • BiggyWiggy Rogers

      I think there’s real problems if you take away the minimum wage. We all know how that works in some developing countries.. where employees work every waking hour for an utter pittance, to support a life of poverty…. because companies exploit their need and desperation.

      One of the problems with the global economy is that everyone has to try and compete with this wage exploitation – particularly in the manufacturing sector.

      I would prefer to see a minimum wage introduced worldwide.

      I like the tax credit idea – it could be used as a stimulus to get the economy working again.. but I don’t expect it as a permanent feature.

  14. JJ Tatten

    Another generation forced to emigrate. Another generation of parents forced to say goodbye. Another generation forced to suppress tears in departure lounges. Another generation of friends scattered. Another generation of grandchildren reduced to fleeting embraces and telephone relationships. Never again. Vote for a non-affiliated independent in your area. If ever there was the right lyric at the right time, it’s the opening verse of this song. Make your vote count and your voice heard. RISE UP. FIGHT BACK. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYEDA3JcQqw

  15. Tax incentives are always good provided they are designed to assist the GNP of our country.Property taxes were a good idea initially until greed arrived .It should have been amended five years ago and be only allowed for those who deserved it .By this I mean those whoes personal income can be related to the provision of a service of employment and which they have a corporate official appointment to the management of their employer company and where that company directly exports their service and or products.

    I remember in the 80′s when big houses in the swanky central Dublin area were given ‘Grants’ from Bord Failte on the premise that they adapt the houses for the provision of B&B .It was a scam and those houses were always private dwellings and allowed insiders a step up the ladder to the grotto of the reigning Haughy.These people were senior in age then and its unlikely they are alive now.Even today some people live in ‘designated houses’ for tax relief and are ‘supposed to’ grant access to the public under controlled circumstances.Many have not done so and continue to enjoy the spoils of the revenue loss of the country.

    Property taxes were introduced a time when all property was very unattractive to anyone and there was no confidence to build .So it had a purpose initially full stop.

  16. Bond is The Name and Bond is The Game

    Bondholders can be a wonderful ally too if you know how .They love risk not slaughter .Our Government loves slaughter and have sent the electorate to the abatoir and the youth to foreign lands .I believe we can do business in another way even under austerity rules with the bondholders provided full employment is restored .

    Like them we too should become bondholders and this time in partnership with them.The deal would be that all the sacrificial lambs we are offering on the alter be matched by them too .And instead of allowing the monies be placed inside banks allow all of the cash be used to exploit our own natural resources under a favourable licencing agreement and with national control .Include Tax Incentives too.

    This would mean the end of bank shore-up nonesense and allow the banks be purchased by financial vultures at their market price.

    It would also mean that the bondholders would see what would have been monies lost in Irish Banks would instead have a potential growth return and liken it to a Norway in Oil potential Fund.

    We would regain vast growth IMMEDIATELY and the we live blissfully once more.

  17. Vive Le Bondeuse Vive la Vie

  18. johnm

    the more we read, the more reason we have to weep…..

    fianna fail govt ignored department of finance advice for 10 years….

    http://www.sbpost.ie/news/report-dept-of-finance-warned-government-of-dangerous-policies-54247.html

    • Fiona

      ….and after the weeping and grieving, comes the anger.
      Something to look forward to I think…. and I hope at some point soon we will learn to believe in ourselves and not be lead blindly by those we trusted with our future.
      I believe at the moment we are in a sort of stunned silence … it’ll be interesting to hear what ‘excuses’ the Politicians will have when they come looking for our vote.
      I feel like a hawk who doesn’t have to hunt, just waiting for lunch to come knocking on my door!!!

  19. Deco

    Well, let’s be honest here – the Irish Labour market is not functioning efficiently. It is where funny EU regulations, bad management practices, a minimum wage that is above that next door, obscene stealth taxes, and state policy that can be compromised all meet together. Throw in a banking system where everybody regards property as an asset, and an income stream as something to be taxed or mortgaged in order to pay down bad debts, and you get an unholy mess. The greatest surprise of all is that we are actually increasing our exports – and is a credit to people who toil every day despite all the corruption and cronyism that eminates from D2, D4, and the Straffan Mafia. Oh yeah, and add in loads of taxes from the GP introduced because any form of application of energy should be discouraged.

    The main plank of Keynesianism is that you can get away with all of the above if you drive up demand by juicing up the system with borrowed money. The main plank of Monetarism is that it is better to print the money and playing games with the central bank lending system. A case of two expensive perscriptions that enable everybody to avoid being honest.

    With an election in process, and the parties that will make up the next government committed to continuing high commercial rates and stealth taxes, and driving back up the minimum wage – we are not going to see an improvement.

    The problem is that I don’t see anybody committed to getting rid of the nonsense that is driving down employment levels.

    In six months time, David will looking at a screen wondering about a new title – “give business a reason to stay in this economy”. There is too much power wrested in continuing an expensive, inefficient state system. And the political parties are all committed to varying degrees to continuing this. All we can do is try to minimize the damage, and run clear of it in whatever way we can.

  20. idij

    Yes, give a tax discount to the employer for every employee employed. Possibly relate it to the salaries they pay also to encourage more profits released into the local economy via salaries.

    The obvious problem with this approach though is that the ones with the vast profits and tiny employment levels with the scope to take on more people are just funneling profits through here and don’t even pay the full corporation tax rate anyway.

  21. irishminx

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-01/iceland-proves-ireland-did-wrong-things-saving-banks-instead-of-taxpayer.html

    And

    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/50481/

    For the record, I will not be running in this general election, as Direct Democracy Ireland will not be registered in time.
    The two links above are good. imho.

  22. Deco

    The state is borrowing 19 billion per year, just to provide for day-to-day state spending. It is inflationary – but if it is removed the ICTU bosses will be outraged, because such a policy would be deflationary. (and ICTU is in the inflation business).

    The problem is not simply that the taxes are too high. Because when you reduce them you simply borrow more and then increase taxes to pay it all back.

    The volume of state expenditure is the elephant in the room. In fact it is crazy to think that we have a very favourable age related dependency profile, but we are still completely out of whack with regard to balancing spending and taxation.

    In other words, the state is pushing money into the economy like the banks once did. It bankrupted the banks. Does anybody think it will work any better when the politicians, and their quangoes are doing it. I certainly don’t. In fact the 19 Billion difference is the pace at which we are running out of leverage on a grand scale, trying to sustain the excessive leverage of the past fifteen years.

    • BiggyWiggy Rogers

      There was a very interesting documentary on state spending in the UK explaining how the public sector had now grown to far outstrip the private sector (Britain’s Trillion Pound Horror)

      It demonstrated how the public sector were ultimately tax consumers, and were not contributing to the creation of wealth in the economy (as espoused by Darling) … The conclusion was that the UK was up the creek if it didn’t redress the public/private employment balance, as it didn’t have enough real tax payers to keep the whole show afloat.

      • BiggyWiggy Rogers

        http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story Here’s the link to watch the docu.. interesting viewing..

      • Deco

        Yes. Britain’s public sector grew completely out of control in recent years. Phony Tony and Flash Gordon left it completely overized, inefficient and full of UK Labour Party canvassers. The Tories and the Lib Dems got into power, and all that has happened is dithering. The problem is not being solved. This is very bad news for Britain.

        The Financial Times told Britons that they could not become rich buying and selling houses to each other in 1992. Ten years later they were back at it again. Mervyn King at the top of the Bank of England also deserves a lot of criticism. But instead he is portrayed as an endearing chap who could do no wrong.

        And let’s not forget Blair and Brown recommended Alan “Bubbles” Greenspan for a knighthood.

  23. Dorothy Jones

    Good article David

    You could also create a fair few jobs with the fees that are paid to NAMA consultants. I argued that it was unconstitutional in the day. Looks like the McKillen judgement will cause a stir. Reading with interest the developments…..

  24. Deco

    19 Billion of a difference between taxation and state expenditure is the cost of the Irish lifestyle concept. Anything less and ICTU will go banannas !

  25. Deco

    The problem with property taxes and incentives to get people to buy property, is not just an Irish problem. Right across the English speaking world, governments have been decreeing laws to compell people to put their money into property, to avail of incentives, and to get mortgaged up to the hilt. And in addition they have done everything possible to reduce interest rates, and restrict the supply of property on the market, in an effort to create high spots to make the rest of the market look “cheap”. Gordon Brown did it. Phony Tony did it. Bertie Ahern did it. Harney demanded it. McDowell lamented that not enough was done on it. Clinton did it. Dubya did it. Every PM of Canada did it since the mid 1990s.

    The effect was to drive up property valuations, and make everybody feel the (virtual) “wealth effect”. In fact the entire thing was about leveraging up consumer confidence on leverage.

    As Hanafin(ished) commented “we must now concentrate on a more sustainable economic concept” (going forward).

  26. Alors !!!

    Bling Bling Bling is in a great mood today and his Hungarian blood is relishing the saliva of the Irish Corporate Tax Regime under the ‘bouquet’ of the EFSF whereby he and his twin sister Fraulein Merkel plan behind the backs of the Irish Electorate a minimum uniform corporate tax rate while we ponder our own fate before the elections without a leader or a stateman .We are defenseless and senseless as we meet this fatal blow .

  27. crossroads

    David, surely something like this could be self-financing and not even cost the €3.9bn you refer to.

    The cost of the Employer’s tax credit could be offset by the saving on social welfare payments and the gain of taxes from the new employee.

  28. EOC

    Good article but the idea behind it is really so far out there when it comes to the useless politicians and civil servants in this country. Last week they cut the USC on people with medical cards and imposed an extra 3% on self-employed people!!! The very same people who create jobs here and more importantly, the very same people who have the potential to create more jobs here! They are now being punished!

    And why is it only the self-employed who have a 10% USC? Why not the employed? Could it be because there are no self-employed people in the civil service? Of course it is! These things do not happen by accident.

    None of this is down to stupidity. It is clear thinking aimed at protecting the civil service at whetever expense, be it more debt or more unemployment in this country. The politicians even have the gall to stand up and say we have a “safety valve”…..There is no bigger shame than to have people having to leave their friends and family because the politicians and civil service in their country are so useless/self-interested. It is shameful.

    Anybody who has a brain has been wondering where the stimulus for jobs has been for the last 3 years. Its not going to happen now. Especially with the prospect of Labour and their friends in the unions at the cabinet table.

    • EOC

      Self employed / Directors have two tier rate for PRSI and that is 3% amd 5% depending on how much income is earned.The employees have 8% + 10.75% ( employers contribution ) = 18.75% .So I am guessing the the Minister wanted to bridge the total gap between the two.

      • EOC

        But without extending the right to Social Welfare to the self employed? Hardly fair?

        Also, it is up to the director if they want to pay the 10.75%, but not the 10% USC.

        Regardless, the point is how they are punishing the people who create jobs at the time of greatest need.

      • Deco

        Yes.

        And what do you get in return.
        The HSE. Thirty something local authorities. Twenty something government departments. 800 quangoes. Who knows how many agencies. Plus hundreds of private sector and “voluntary” organizations that are great at advocating reasons why they should also have their snouts in the trough.

        And the whole lot governed over by a consensus of IBEC and ICTU.

        It’s very sophisticated. It is also a pile of nonsense !!

  29. Why are Irish fishermen restricted more severely than foreign trawlers in Irish waters? I have had a discussion with a trawler today and it seems unjust. does anyone know?

    • EOC

      The Common Fisheries policy is why. 24% of the EU’s fishing waters……but a quota of 3.8%, as agreed by the Irish Govts and as voted for by the people, time and again.

      irish people have ansolutely no idea how much fish is worth. Parts of Europe have their entire economy dependent on our fish.

  30. Unashamed Rant!

    Okay guys so let’s say our dream comes true and we get the makings of a Government who can actually act instead of react?

    With the almighty mess that the previous administration has left us in what can they actually do?

    They inherit the mess caused by a government who treated stamp duty like some natural resource that could never run out!

    Who built up a culture that still permeates the machinery of the state. The culture of entitlement and mini empires. A public service which is bloated by “managers” in inverted commas as opposed to Managers.

    And the fundamental difference between the two is that Management is a science not a rank!

    If you don’t understand that – you’ll probably only do the right thing accidentally as opposed to deliberately.

    In fact you are more likely to do the wrong thing!
    And this explains an awful lot about what actually happenned and how it is likely to happen again.
    It explains how the Regulator didn’t regulate and why nobody in the state infrastructure seemed to notice. Including the Opposition!
    It explains the the wasted billions!

    So if the guy or gal who is trying to get your vote doesn’t understand the art of management (Which of course as a Teacher or Solicitor they probably won’t!) then they are unlikely to be able to effect change and deliver effective services or plans.
    The one thing that worries me most about almost all Irish Political Parties is that they seem particularly unable to even acknowledge the science of good management.

    And for those of you who have not undertaken any basic management study, let me just tell you this;

    On your very first morning your tutor is very likely to tell you that 70% of the culture of any organisation comes from the management!

    Now Think Callely or Ahern? –
    Eureka! Welcome to the Republic of Ireland!

    And why should the blatantly obvious be pointed out by a prat like me and not by Kenny or Gilmore or any of the rest of the Great White Hope? It’s because they don’t get the f**king thing!

    End of rant!

    • Dorothy Jones

      @ Paul Moriarty
      Paul, many of us share your anger and frustration. Change will come if we facilitate it, perhaps with small steps at first. There are some persons capable of instigating this change, we can vote for them or support them if we choose.

    • Deco

      { The one thing that worries me most about almost all Irish Political Parties is that they seem particularly unable to even acknowledge the science of good management.
      }

      Correct. And if they decided to appoint people on the basis of merit, and ability – we will certainly see IBEC and ICTU going ballistic.

      From a crisis the other year, Aer Lingus put Willie Walsh in charge. He turned Aer Lingus around, and had Ryanair really worried. But he was shoved, and now he is running British Airways. He should have been reappointed to clean up the mess that is CIE !!! Or maybe put in charge of FAS.

    • coldblow

      Paul

      I know what you are saying but I don’t think it really explains everything as you suggest. You have to remember where the crash came from: privately owned banks acting with the enthusiastic collaboration of the govt and a sizeable portion of the citizenry.

      Also, maybe 70% of an organization’s ethos coming from the management is unhealthily high, as surely more input should come from the customers? Only guessing. I understand that in most organizations the staff are turned to the CEO, who is the sun in their universe, and point their a*rses at the customer. I’d have to blame the managers there! (I’d guess the proportions in Ireland are: management 40%, staff 59% and customers 1%.)

      Also, when you look at the economy the most profitable part by far is the foreign-owned MNC part, and who determines their culture?

      Another way of looking at things is that people who caused the crash are now looking for someone else to blame. They have a good chance of succeeding because the media are mercenary and the people don’t know or don’t want to know.

      Hey, ranting myself here!

      • Dear Cold – Or may I call you Blow?

        Anyway the 70% Management Cultural Influence is in fact a recognised norm.
        The best companies I ever worked for genuinely regarded customers or service users as “their sun”. Whereas the worst nearly always saw the CEO as the centre!
        Anyway besides all that you’ve got to agree;
        Ranting is really great!!

        Rant! rant! rant!

  31. [b]VACUUM[/b]

    After all…. make no mistake, when an ‘autocratic’ governed state looses it’s grip, there will be no alternative on offer that encourages people to vote for, the reason is simple, during the reign of the incumbents there was no culture and atmosphere where a true opposition had a chance to grow, hence there will be a vacuum left afterwards.

    The problem is not confined to Ireland at all.

    One has to be very alert to who is going to fill this vacuum. Naturally, the old incumbents will desperately try to use this for their own advantage, old phrases in a new packaging, ‘There is no other way’ is not turned into something like, do you really want THEM?

    We now face a time a constant bombardment, rhetoric, hollow phrases with little meaning down to lies, all will be offered to get a grip on power.

    From Magreb to the southern tip of the Arabian peninsula, another vacuum develops.

    In Ireland, the beautiful landscape is abused again with demonic faces and slogans, looking down at you. Faces designed to look confident, trustworthy, competent, motivated, honest, friendly. They are depicting people that do not exist, they are the result of photographers working to the baseline demands of Image consultants, schools of faked sincerity.

    If it would not be for real, one could have a laugh, but it is real, and at times makes me wonder, all these faces and their presented convictions, the values they pretend to stand for, well…. do you ever wonder?

    Best
    Georg

    • BiggyWiggy Rogers

      Indeed. We need to design helmets with blinkers on – both to protect our viewing space and our heads as the placards fly about in the gales…

      • Helmets allowing for a 90 dergree vision, the rest of the head is protected, are tax free.

        135 degree helmets are taxed at a rate of 23.5 % for income below 100K and 23.6% above 100k.

        180 degree helmets are only to be handed out to senior civil servants.

        Blindfolds for TD’s that will decapitated are provided for by St. Vincent de Paul.

  32. Deco

    The DoF (who never seen this coming) are explaining that their lack of foresight was because the politicians did not let them see what was coming.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/central-bank-was-hampered-by-politicians-claims-official-2523046.html

    I reckon this is pure CYA territory. Of course the politicians were interfering. That is what politicians do. That is what lobbyists insist that they do. But that was not sufficient reason for the DoF for being unable to produce any reports recommending that the credit binge get investigated.

    I agree with him concerning the boards of the CBoI and IFRSA being staffed with political appointees. Mostly the Cronies-ICTU-IBEC troika. And throw in the Minister’s wife’s favourite biography author for good measure. Who also happens to be on the payroll of RTE. But who never was interviewed by RTE concerning the responsibility in IFRSA.

    You apppoint clowns, and then you wonder while it all descends into a circus. This is what goes on in state quangoes.

    Time to sack members of the CBoI and IFRSA who were in position from 2001 to 2007. Without any of this compensation nonsense.

  33. Deco

    While the politicians are fighting it out to get their paws on the levers of power, and activists up and down the country are salivating at how it will get them up the social pecking order through the recession, in the real economy, real employment is reeling.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ptsb-to-abolish-fixed-rate-mortgages–report-492123.html

    Now, in fairness to Permo – they have still not gone looking for tax-payer funded bailouts. The damage is contained to those who chose them as employer, and those who chose them as mortgage provider. In the context of the Irish banks, Permo are being singularly responsible.

    It also indicates that tax-payer money is preventing any serious rationalization from occurring in AIB/BoI. In effect they are already behaving like semi-state organizations, where employment levels are completely irrespective of activity levels. Great news for those in those organizations – bad news for the rest of the PAYE taxpaying population !!

  34. Tim

    Folks, check out Oireachtas spending, line by line;who gets paid on behalf of whom for services and how much:

    http://thestory.ie/

  35. johnm

    maybe clutching at straws but here we go……just putting it out there…

    Brian Lenihan.

    barrister.
    minister of finance .
    has been shafted by his colleagues and he has also shafted them. { promoting anti cowen sentiment and then voting for him etc }
    what does Brian lenihan want out of life ??
    What does he love ??
    what are the things that are importrant to him ?
    I presume he loves his country and as a politician he wants to do whatever he can to make his country a better place.This is where he is from , his roots.

    He has been sick .
    I am sure there have been times when he has questioned everything, has tried to figure out what are the important things and what are not.
    There would have been a lot of time for inner thoughts …
    What was it that inspired him to get work hard while undergoing treatment ??

    how does he feel now that his party have spoken and made him third choice behind micheal martin and o cuiv ??
    what does that say to him ??
    life is not easy , sometimes we try and try and try, do our best and it just does not do us any good…
    so..
    I have just reread the vanity fair article about Ireland….
    Brian lenihan..
    do you love you country ??
    I think what Brian Lenihan should do is to quit his party…use his by all accounts finely tuned legal mind and launch a case in the European high Court.

    No one knows what was said or what happened the night in September of the bank guarantees.
    Brian Lenihan may argue that he acted on the best advice .
    .who gave him that advice ??
    was it the truth ??
    Were certain documents doctored and opinions altered ??
    Figures mentioned that night have all spiralled out of control, someone was lying..
    is there a court case here….
    Brian Lenihan was there… he knows exactly what happened and what was said..He would be the obvious person to spearhead a legal action…he could reclaim his tarnished reputation….
    he goes to court..he wins…..President Brian anyone ??

    I am not even sure who or where the case would be heard….
    Ireland got bad advice. Ireland should not have to pay….

    As I said , am I clutching at straws ???

    • Hi John,
      Cancer is treatable at certain stages – Hunger for power is far more difficult to treat!

      Cancer is usually local to specific areas of the body but hunger for power drives you relentlessly to say anything and causes blindness and selective hearing!

      Cancer can cause a decrease in self esteem where hunger for power and power itself can increase levels of self esteem to such dangerous levels that one feels they cannot possibly do wrong and therefore it must have been someone else!

      Cancer doesn’t necessarily make you tell lies!
      Whereas …you’ve guessed it!

      My point here is simple – The man habitually tells lies and none of them are caused by cancer!

      Anything that’s not out in the open tends to be dishonest! And we the ordinary people of this country have been sold out by vested interest in the self deluded name of the common good, by people who think that “responsibility” is something exclusively associated with the public.

      Again absolutely nothing to do with cancer!

    • BnB

      Most seniour politicians, especially those who aspire to being prime minister, concern themselves with how history will judge them. You would expect this to be particularly true for someone who faced a life threatening illness. You would have expected him to be kept awake at night by the image of a gravestone marked “Here lies the worst Minister for Finance EVER”. You would have expected someone like that to use whatever time he had left to leave behind a legacy of saving the nation from economic ruin, not for altruistic reasons but for the sake of his lasting reputation.

      Since then he has survived physically but will now be remembered for the biggest act of treason in the history of the state, which also means his political suicide.

      Maybe this behaviour comes from the Fianna Fail gene that he shares with his father, aunt and brother, that puts the interests of their cronies above those of everyone else. It’s like the story of the scorpion who stings the frog whose back he’s taking a lift on across the river, even though that means they’ll both drown. “I can’t help it” he explains, “It’s in my nature”.

      • Colin

        Head Spoof Boy Lenny with his earnest manner and softly spoken deep regional accent can convince the insiders that the Pope is in fact a Protestant and not Catholic if he wanted to. He has shown no remorse for what he has done to the country. He is an economic dunce. He’s a political clown and a national traitor.

  36. johnm

    Hello Paul,
    I must clarify myself…
    What I meant was I am sure in the last year or so of his illness he had a lot of time to think ..

    nothing like a potentially serious illness to focus the mind…
    What is important to him??
    Why did he become a politician ??
    Does he or did he want to make a difference ??

    Is there a court option ??
    might be worth thinking about !!

    straws…clutching…

    • Fiona

      Hi John …
      Are you ‘sure’in the last year or so of his illness he had a lot of time to think … or are you ‘hoping’ that he has.
      I’m wondering if maybe the ‘straw’ you’re clutching on is the hope that the people you put your trust in have not lied, cheated and feathered their own nests at the cost of ours.
      As for a legal option … “The law is an Ass” and anyone looking to it for Justice would do well to remember it.
      The reality that we have been ‘sold’ for the luxury of the minority is so incredible that maybe it’s easier to hope that one of our leaders was ‘not well’ and maybe wasn’t thinking straight!!! hmmm.

      • johnm

        hello Fiona,
        I have no faith in them now and never had faith in them at any time……
        I am one of the many who have had to leave the country …
        I hope !! that life and its beauty was clarified for him during his illness….
        I hope ….that someone somewhere will do the right thing..
        I am sickened by ahern and cowen and many more…

        I know ….what do I know ??

        Three years ago I woke up in hospital 3 weeks after a potentially fatal accident….
        another 5 weeks and I was starting to be lucid and remember and be aware of where I was..

        strangely enough , One of my first memories was watching the tv in hospital and Gordon Brown talking about England going in to recession..I remember thinking..how did that happen , where have I been…..

        Anyway…as I started the long road back.. I had a lot of time to think and a lot to think about….

        I hope !! That brian Lenihan has as well……..

        • It occurs to me that your view of life, its power and beauty and your role in it. Comes from a place which is honest and true.
          Unfortunately Mr. Lenihan’s view will always be stymied by the Lenihan/Lemass legacy – Illness or no illness!

        • Fiona

          I would respectfully suggest that you loose that hope John.
          Maybe start to believe in those around you and not those that have separated themselves from your ‘ideals’ be their actions.
          Mr. Lenihan had the audacity and arrogance to assume he could make major decisions for his countrymen while undergoing treatment for a life threatening illness…perhaps he hoped to get the sympathy vote and the ‘ah, sure ism’t he a great man to continue while he’s sick” vote.
          In my opinion he should have gone home and rested and left the work to those who were fit and able to do it. But within F/F there doesn’t seem to be anyone who is ‘fit for purpose’.
          Hope you’re feeling better soon.

        • Fiona

          Harper66 posted this on the site here and it’s worth a read.
          http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/03/michael-lewis-ireland-201103?currentPage=all
          It may help to clarify some things for you.

    • Okay John so the straws you’re clutching are the hope that illness makes you think of higher ideals?
      M-m-m-m,
      Now if it were up to me I wouldn’t need a courtroom proceeding! No, I would have gone the Iceland route – Give the people a say by referendum! When they absolutely definitely refuse by referendum to pay private debt you have achieved a number of powerful things;
      1. ECB are on the back-foot and for the sake of the Euro and the whole European experiment, God only knows what they would yield for the good of the Irish!
      2. Such a referendum would create a healthy national solidarity – We stand or fall together!
      3. The whole nation sends a message to the world that we are not sad naive debt slaves – In fact we’re very much worth investing in!
      4. Serious investors will take us seriously again as opposed to their current disregard of our administration.
      Ultimately John I would hope that through my illness I would gain the strength to lead – Not mislead!

  37. Deco

    This sounds to me like theft to order.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/anglo-chiefs-laptop-stolen-2525225.html

    Basically, the laptop of the top man in Anglo would contain a lot of “interesting” information. Especially, if you were one of Anglo’s clients, and you were wondering that Anglo was planning to do to get their money back.

    One thing is certain – there was a definite objective in this theft – and it was not to save somebody the bother of having to fork out €400 for a new laptop. The information on the laptop was the target.

    This tells me of a strong probability of the some rich people in this country (or formerly rich people) being very interested in Anglo’s internal dealings, and who ordered via Dublin’s thriving crime sector, the theft of the one place where they figured important information would be stored……

  38. michaelcoughlan

    My best post to date.

    Hello Suds, Me again.

    O deary me suds GSucks up to their goolies in Doo Doo again!

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-07/goldman-efforts-to-burnish-image-may-be-undermined-by-facebook.html

    Remember my advice regarding Glengary Glen Ross?

    My new advice to YOU suds is to put yourself in the shoes of the character played by the Superlative actor Kevin Spacy called Williamson and imagine that the character played by the superlative actor Al Pacino is we, the Irish people.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HURJNd0J4U

    Hopefully if there is any bit of humanity or dignity in you you will consider what you are saying before you try and convince us that we shouldn’t default on senior bondholder debt in the Irish Banks.

    Enjoy the weekend suds.

    • Deco

      GSucks got a bailout last week of money owed to them from AIG – which was nationalized in the US. Basically the Obama Administration (peppered with Wall Street Executives like the Bush Administration was filled with Houston Oilers) is helping GSucks just like our government is bailing out French Insurance Funds who are bailing out Ditherers chums. Time to play a “Johnny Cash” tune maybe ? (cryptic hint).

      And not a word about it. It is less important than any of the current news. Even in the US it is not mentioned in the media. That is a template that Suds wants us to follow. And the Irish media are following it, despite the misgivings of the public.

  39. Gege Le Beau

    We need radical change, not a slight altering of the status quo.

    Democratic control of the workplace, an expanded credit union system as the basis of a financial system, working co-ops where people are treated equally and share fully in the profits. Full health care for workers and job security. This is basic stuff.

    Michael Moore – Workers Co-Ops
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C3LJ_uO3lY

  40. Gege Le Beau

    If the boys can find billions upon billions for disreputable financial institutions then they can use a fraction of it to provide for universal health care, access to education and housing, jobs stimulus programme, but first we have to throw off the bondholders and renegotiate with the EU/IMF with the threat of default unless they get realistic.

  41. Blood Sweat & Tears

    The Trilogy of the Fundamental Factors of Progress

    We have not reached this catalyst yet and until we do we are like dogs running around biting our tails only that we cannot reach them.More youth are leaving our shores and unable to vote in this upcoming election.Their voices go unheard.Many old fogys seek re-election with old tricks and same spots and a new set of veneers to help their failing smiles.Some secretly use botox ( try to spot the difference).The Pain and Frustration continues and elsewhere properly managed countries have us mangled and taking advantage of our weaknesses while we lie face down in our own madness and fear of ourselves.

    Yates would paint an ugly face if he were alive now and showing a broken heart and a old parent and in the background a son/daughter in the distance lost to the nature of things to happen.An ill fated journey of dispair and a lost soul.

    All hopes gone .All sense of identity lost.All dreams disapeared .All in a nothingness of purpose without a president who has no forum to show and no voice to hear and no leadership to give.Yet they take all .They take everything .They rob us our defences .They conspire and deceive and manipulate our messages of needs and wants and feed us with crumbs of begging bowls.

    You maybe someone who has left home and in a foreign land or you know you will be soon and the hurt and damage you feel is heart breaking and you try to hide your memories and face the new surroundings and you wonder who you will become in time and what those you have left will be too and which might be the better or worse and will you find what you once left behind .The VOID becomes Bigger and BIGGER and without YOU.

  42. paulmcd

    BLOOMBERG, 1 February 2011

    ICELAND PROVING IRELAND WRONG

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-01/iceland-proves-ireland-did-wrong-things-saving-banks-instead-of-taxpayer.html

    EXTRACTS BELOW:

    “Iceland did the right thing by making sure its payment systems continued to function while creditors, not the taxpayers, shouldered the losses of banks,” says Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, an economics professor at Columbia University in New York. “Ireland’s done all the wrong things, on the other hand. That’s probably the worst model.”

    By guaranteeing bank liabilities, Ireland faces a potential public debt burden that could swell to twice its GDP, up from 94 percent now. Iceland’s debt ratio is about 85 percent.

    Today, Iceland is recovering. The three new banks had combined profit of $309 million in the first nine months of 2010. GDP grew for the first time in two years in the third quarter, by 1.2 percent, inflation is down to 1.8 percent and the cost of insuring government debt has tumbled 80 percent. Stores in Reykjavik were filled with Christmas shoppers in early December, and bank branches were crowded with customers.

    Those include the agreement reached with the U.K. and the Netherlands, which has to be approved by President Olafur R. Grimsson. The politically independent head of state has said he’ll decide by February whether to put the issue to a referendum again. Voters rejected a previous arrangement last year that forced a higher interest rate on Iceland.

    “In the beginning, banks and other financial institutions in Europe were telling us, ‘Never again will we lend to you,’” Einarsdottir says. “Then it was 10 years, then 5. Now they say they might soon be ready to lend again.”

    Arnason will have a better chance of keeping his countrymen home if Iceland can resume growth as predicted. It would also help prove his predecessors were right to let the country’s banks fail: Ireland, which rescued its financial institutions, is on the way to shrinking for a fourth consecutive year.

  43. DB4545

    I watched that Morgan Kelly/Brendan Keenan interview and hindsight helps to reveal Brendan Keenan, Miriam O’ Callaghan and that ***hole banker for the establishment spin merchants that they really are. The Michael Lewis Vanity Fair “Why Irish eyes are crying” article explains clearly in non-technical language the incompetence and financial treason of the FF/Green Government. I’ve listened to the gobshitery and gombeenism of the FF/FG/SF and Labour and some Independent candidates and the s**te they’re coming out with really beggars belief. They can’t even put up posters without hurting people. Do these ***holes not realise that a child of 10 can see through their bulls**t? I was in a house in county Meath today. A good friend of mine. Mortgage of 350,000. Worth maybe 180,000 if someone is dumb enough to buy it? It was unoccupied over the recent cold spell. The radiators burst and I reckon there’s at least 40,000 worth of damage possibly uninsured. My pal is handing back the keys and his forwarding address in 3 weeks time will be a suburb of perth. The banks have as much chance of getting cash from him as the Bank of Ireland crew had in Poland in the Michael Lewis article. How many more houses are out there like that? And Michael Noonan is talking about mortgage relief of 160 a month for those in negative equity? Let’s open our eyes, accept reality and burn the bondholders. What are the foreign banks going to do bomb us? We can’t pay and won’t pay. It was like giving icecream on credit to children The German Banks took a risk and lost now build a bridge(get anglo to finance the construction) and get over it. The game is up.

  44. Harper66

    “…Voters rightly blame Fianna Fail for the reckless policies of recent years, when the “Celtic Tiger” investment boom gave way to a speculative housing bubble fed by lax regulation and cozy ties between bankers and politicians. When that bubble burst in 2008, Fianna Fail pledged more than the government could afford to rescue its banker friends. The bankers emerged nearly whole. Ireland emerged nearly broken…. ”

    New York Times Editorial

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/opinion/04fri2.html?_r=1

    The world is talking about it – is it not time our media, political candidates and voting public began to speak about it?

  45. I say, I say, I say,
    Paddy English Politician, Paddy Irish Politician and Paddy Scots Politician are in a nursing home.

    Paddy English Politician says; “Well I was caught claiming £7000 for renovating a London House I never stayed in. So, naturally, to protect our honourable system of democracy, I resigned and was duly fined!”

    Paddy Scots Politician says; Well I too was caught claiming expenses on false invoices and in order to protect the honour of my parliament I resigned before I was eventually found guilty and imprisoned.

    Then Paddy Irish Politician says; Resign? Prison? Honour?

    No fuck that! I sued the bastards that caught me with the forged invoices and my hand in the till to the tune of €70000.
    Then I invited our self regulating legal system, who took umbridge at the fact that honest men might reach honest conclusions without Bar qualifications, to totally exonerate me, without principle, and restore my good name!

    Boom! Boom!

    • Absolutely Relevant to the Reasons WHY our so called financial & commercial laws SUCKED our little country.Its a Joke and sadly its TRUE .

      The Law Reform Committee needs Immediate NEW MANDATE with committee members from a cross bord of professional / vocational occupations delivering new ideas to RESTORE National Integrity .

  46. Irish Banks and Fraud Report to National Crime Forum in 1998 was completely IGNORED by Minister for Justice .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkUVZdCgXJM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSeqWaLa430&feature=related

  47. Gege Le Beau

    David McWilliams,

    I have to register my objection and deep disappointment at your decision to interview Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair’s spin-doctor, on Tuesday night.

    In the interests of those who have suffered and died in two illegal wars I urge you not to go forward with it.

    Gege Le Beau

    • Harper66

      +1

      Aside from the two wars, Campbell represents all that is wrong with the political system – a thin veneer of respectability over greed, spoof and misinformation.

      It angers me to see him portrayed as a respectable politican. He is neither.

      If the drive for political reform is genuine then the first step to achieving this should be getting rid of Cambpell and his ilk.

    • Deco

      I for my part will not be listening to any of the PR/Spin New Labour Liars. That goes for Alistair Campbell, Phony Tony, Flash Grodon, Lord Meddlesome, Byers(you hire me as your MP like you hire a London Cab), or any of the rest of them.

      A collection of pretenders, and schemers the lot of them. They have bankrupted Britain and they will inflict serious collateral damage on us also. In fact inflicting collateral damage seems to be their collective core competence.

      • Gege Le Beau

        So why give them the semblence of respectability by interviewing him and their ilk.

        Haven’t they been given enough publicity on the Late, Late and Dunphy shows.

        The country has been reduced to a free for all, have we any values?

      • Methinks twas the doughty Lord Meddlesome that negotiated the WTO deal that led to Irish sugar beet farmers being trashed by Seanie & Greencore??

        • Deco

          Yeah – there was a “new paradigm” “business model” doing the rounds in 2003 – all the smartest people beleived in it. Close the factory, and build a shopping mall in it’s place – complete with bijoux apartments. Big plans. Something Fruedian about the whole scheme. Completely barking mad….

          What happened to all of that that ? Well-Seanie ? any comments from the 19th hole in Drury’s Glen ? what’s that I hear ? that deafening sound ? .

          All from “Point in time thinking”. As ex-Minister Hanafin told us once “from now on we will have to concentrate on sustainable economic activity “. Copping on to late will not save her seat.

      • coldblow

        Weren’t Labour forced to go down the spin route purely because, under Thatcher, the Tories had destroyed them by the same methods (which were new at the time), ie using the Murdoch press? In other words, if they wanted to get elected they had no alternative?

        I think Campbell was on the Late Late on Friday, but hasn’t he been interviewed ad nauseum by now? What new angle would Tubbers have tried then (I didn’t watch it). Oh yes, show the viewers your emotional intelligence and that you’re just like the rest of us, etc.

    • BiggyWiggy Rogers

      I agree AC represents what we want to erase from our political system – but perhaps some lessons can be learned from the interview .. better the devil and all that ?

      What cannot be denied is he is/was a very clever manipulator of modern marketing mediums… whilst my core utterly despises this, I also recognise that I need to understand how that success occurred, and possibly deduce how to use it for good rather than the negative purposes (if that’s possible!)

  48. Harper66

    http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/rte-controversy–the-strife-of-bryan-217186.html

    Irish media personalities paid by politicans to help them evade questions – report from 2003…and we are expecting fair media coverage in 2011?

    • Deco

      I suppose this is what happens when RTE personalities (sic) are not getting paid enough to meet their living expenses ?

      Life is tough when you get paid 150 K for talking a few times a week….

      The RTE Evening Snooze……

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