January 26, 2011

Party is now over for ECB and 'Bunga Bunga' banks

Posted in Banks · 196 comments ·

Are you too fascinated by the details of Berlusconi’s ‘Bunga Bunga’ parties? With all the serious stuff about the Dail, the election, politics and our predicament, we need a distraction.

A quick glance at ‘Grazia’ from time to time is just the tonic. In such magazines and in all the red tops, we get the “no-holds-barred” details of the Italian prime minister’s orgies outside Milan with young prostitutes who were themselves shocked by the demands of Silvio.

The image of the rich, successful, old ‘Sugar Daddy’ with oodles of money and no sense, infatuated by the beautiful temptress is as old as the Bible. It is the modern equivalent of Herod, Salome, and the Dance of the Seven Veils, which ultimately led to the beheading of John the Baptist. Berlusconi is Italy’s Herod.

The gifts to the girls, ranging from jewellery to straight cash, and their subsequent revelations indicate how the game Silvio was playing affected his own, admittedly tarnished, reputation.

Berlusconi insists that none of the girls at the parties are paid. Instead he gives them gifts for their time and attention. One girl received a diamond watch inscribed with: “It’s a good thing that Silvio is here”.

Old Silvio, having bought people off for most of his life, gambled that the gifts would be enough to cover up the whole thing and preserve his reputation. But he got in too deep and there were too many people who knew. Now that the girls are singing like bright canaries, he is desperately exposed and he looks like an old sleazy eejit.

But Silvio isn’t alone. He is not the only ‘Sugar Daddy’ in Europe who is caught out by the enthusiasm of his own initiative.

The ECB is the Silvio Berlusconi of the financial markets. It was the Sugar Daddy that threw money at the gamey banks in peripheral Europe and in Ireland, in particular. It was hoping that these gifts of huge amounts of cash would preserve its reputation. Its reputation was dented when it became apparent that it had presided over an orgy of credit in the boom years. It housed the orgy under the roof of the euro and as long as the euro looked clean and respectable on the outside, no one knew what was going on inside.

However, what was going on was a huge Ponzi-scheme where old German and French savers stuffed money into the hands of peripheral banks who, in turn, dealt this out to their financially promiscuous customers. As a result, according to the Bank for International Settlements, the banks in Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain owe over €900bn to the German and French banks.

Worse still, as evidenced by the shenanigans in Depfa Bank in Dublin, under the cover of the euro, the Irish regulator set about establishing the financial equivalent of a red light district in the docks. In the Irish red light district, German banks and investors were allowed to indulge in all sorts of things which they wouldn’t be allowed to do at home.

German capital was in Dublin because in Dublin you could do things that would have had you arrested in Frankfurt — “light touch”, how are ye! The motto of the IFSC for some was the banking equivalent of a stag party on tour: “What happens in Dublin, stays in Dublin”.

The Sugar Daddy overseeing all this was the ECB, which, when it knew that certain things were going on that it couldn’t possibly condone, simply looked the other way.

Now that all this is emerging and the ECB has to face up to the direct consequences of its financial orgies, it is trying to pay off its former ‘Bunga Bunga’ girls — the peripheral banks — for them to stay on message. Remember the diamond watch inscribed with: “It’s a good thing that Silvio is here”?

Maybe our banks should have one inscribed with “it’s a good thing the ECB is here” because without the ECB, the banks would be exposed. But the problem is that all the ECB’s money injected into the Irish banks (€97bn) comes with the huge price that we, the taxpayer, pay over to the banks who lent to our banks in the first place.

The ECB’s reputation is now tied up with the emerging evidence of the orgy of credit that it hosted from 2000 to 2008.

To preserve what is left of its reputation, it has to keep the ‘Bunga Bunga’ banks on message. The message is that no bondholders get burned, but the ‘Bunga Bunga’ banks are demanding more money from the Sugar Daddy every day just to keep them onside.

At some stage, one of the banks will crack, not least because the banks are dependent on the people of Ireland paying for the recklessness of German, French and British loan sharks.

The pressure is just too much. It is clear that if the ECB wants to be credible, it needs to employ a Max Clifford and change its story. It should come clean and ‘fess up. What we need is a full confession that it hosted the credit orgy and then, when it was over, it kept the ‘Bunga Bunga’ banks open via gifts and inducements.

Then, with an undertaking to change its ways in the future, the reputation of the Sugar Daddy — the ECB — could be salvaged, or at least that process could begin.

  1. adamabyss

    Read this article earlier on and thought it was a bit weak – just a rehash of facts we already know – no real suggestions on a way forward. I guess David will leave that to the politicians in the new government – who are likely to fail miserably as usual.

    • There David goes again misleading the public about banking

      “a huge Ponzi-scheme where old German and French SAVERS stuffed money into the hands of peripheral banks”.

      Blame the savers; would it be more honest if you discussed the unwillingness of the wise old German and French to borrow? This would lead to more clarity and discussion on how the ponzi-scheme works, where loans make deposits. Forget your cute banker’s strategy David, misleading the public into thinking that one receives the savings of another when a bank makes a loan. Explain credit and how the money supply has expanded by over 8% a year and the role your banker friends play in this expansion of debt based money.

      • wills

        ‘Explain credit and how the money supply has expanded by over 8% a year and the role your banker friends play in this expansion of debt based money.’

        He just did its called a POnzi – scheme, u mentioned it in ur comment dude.

      • dwalsh

        Good points all. None of the leading economists tell us the truth about banking. The esoterica of banking is not part of an economics degree or an MBA…those are just indoctrination programs into freemarket ideology. Most economists dont actually know how the banking system works and dont want to either. My guess is that if they did write about it they wouldn’t be leading economists for much longer…after all who’s going to take anyone who says banks have the legal right to conjure money out of thin air and charge us interest for it seriously?

    • mackw

      They need this little bit of wisdom composed on the shores of the Celtic Sea. http://www.asamanthinkethfree-ebook.com

  2. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Paul Fallon, Elliffe Consulting and Somad Mann, Direct Democracy Ire. Direct Democracy Ire said: Party is now over for ECB and ‘Bunga Bunga’ banks http://dlvr.it/F8HNP [...]

  3. John Q. Public

    If our new leader of FF and his mob could guarantee to burn the bondholders, maybe FF would have a chance in the election. It’s not a case of getting rid of the stupid politicians, they nearly all have resigned anyway.

  4. Always thought the Berlusconi debate on his sex life was somewhat confused.

    On the one hand, exploitation of sex and its abuse is wrong and so we condemn those who cause needless suffering through such abuse and exploitation.

    But then there is the other side, those who, relics of a bygone Victorian era, dislike sex in any shape or form, as some form of twisted moral hazard.

    So here are some good things to be said of sex, you must put into practice:)


    • wills


      Third sentence down seems to read very obtuse and vague would awfully mind so when u can clarifying what you mean by it and I then can comment on it.

      • Here’s some clarification:

        Frank Baum, author of The Wizard of Oz would turn in his grave at your efforts to denigrate as worthless, a persons right to vote.

        He may have held the view that the allegorical persona of Dorothy in the tale had slipped down the rabbit hole and was naive and innocent, but I’m guessing he wouldn’t have imagined someone as childishly naive as yourself who question this right.

        Many a drop of blood has been spilt to give that however much abused right to people. In fact, his mother in law Matilda Joslyn Gage arguably played a large role in the bringing to be of WoOZ. She was a feminist who fought tirelessly for a woman’s right to vote. Baum himself would have defended that right to the last.



        Time to grow up, Wills, enough of your nonsense, the sentence you ask clarification for is written in clear English and explains itself:)

          • wills

            That *pops* as in *bursting blood vessel* over something I did not say.

            So, lets, for the record be clear on my thoughts on *right to vote*.

            A persons vote in of itself is an excellent way thru which to organize for people to live n get on with the living peacefully.

            The political process has been overrun by corruption, thereby, making voting and a persons vote ineffective to a degree depending on the quality of corruption in place.


            can u please if u can clarify ur comment above and particular;y sentence third down as its appears obtuse and non coherent to me, so, for my sake please, can u clarify what ur point is in the comment and then I can post on it.

            be obliged,

          • wills


            Now dont forget I said *poilical process*.

          • OK, thanks for clarification, perhaps I misunderstood, it appeared to me you were saying the ‘political process’ had become so corrupt, there was no point in voting.

            I’m glad we’ve cleared that up. Its an important point to me as I worry lots of young people may not even bother to vote as they are so disgusted with the corruption evident in the political process in Ireland.

            I feel so strongly about this that I believe there should be disincentives to not voting. Not sure what they should be, eg extra three points on your driving license, extra €300 on your taxes if you havn’t voted, whatever. Note in voting you have the option of writing ‘none of the above’

            Re explaining the sentence on Berlusconi, I’m no expert in the matter of Berlusconi’s sex life nor have any great interest in it.

            Its probably a poor metaphor chosen by DmcW to talk about the ECB and to use the Berlusconi analogy, but what the heck, don’t know how DmcW keeps up the high standard his writing usually achieves.

            So, I’ll buy you a pint sometime and we’ll talk more about then:)

        • Dorothy Jones

          ‘Frank Baum, author of The Wizard of Oz would turn in his grave at your efforts to denigrate as worthless, a persons right to vote’

          +1 cbweb…….like the reference to Dorothy…

    • irishminx

      Thanks cb, great article. And I thought you were shy……. :))


  5. wills


    Awesome article.

  6. Virility of the Irish Cash Flow Currency

    Bunga Banks & Bunga Politics a l’Irlandaise has more dairy cream that olive oil from Italy or goose fat from Breton or beer from Munich and is usually flatulent and lacks the eroticism of supply to demand and always looks dead when written on paper and needs outside support.And even that does’nt work either.

    Sugar sweet daddies in Irish Polithicks are always non performers when presented to produce a payment for National Recovery.A kickback using the hand with a brown envelope confuses the paying spectators .

    The Irish pregnant male stomachs are the new sex symbols of faked export performance that go to any length to steal attention.The real performers have been hired in and labelled with ‘high technology ‘ and ‘ chemical process’.These are highly paid and bribed to dance with the locals who get their heads squeezed in and made to believe that they have morphed into Superman.The National Seed Plant ( GAA & Rugby Clubs ) rivals the original imported Bull that has sired the national herd .However the Bull never produced a red-head yet and that has left the players guessing why ?

  7. There David goes again misleading the public about banking
    “a huge Ponzi-scheme where old German and French SAVERS stuffed money into the hands of peripheral banks”.

    Blame the savers; would it be more honest if you discussed the unwillingness of the wise old German and French to borrow? This would lead to more clarity and discussion on how the ponzi-scheme works, where loans make deposits. Forget your cute banker’s strategy David, misleading the public into thinking that one receives the savings of another when a bank makes a loan. Explain credit and how the money supply has expanded by over 8% a year and the role your banker friends play in this expansion of debt based money.

    • David is stating facts not presumptions you are assuming or is it presumptions both are the same.

    • I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I’m not sure there exists the contradiction you suggest. My understanding is that you cannot lend beyond a certain limit in a fractional reserve system, and our host has not contradicted that.

      So that there were (German, French) savers, allowed the banks to lend. Seems simple enough to me.

      • The problem is you can go beyond a certain limit, theoretically borrowing can extend to infinity.

        In 1971 to pay for the Vietnam War Nixon broke the dollar connect to the gold standard. Before then, banks had to hold decent deposit/debt ratios of 1:8 and a countries dollar equivalent currency was backed by gold.

        Yes, this was a bank ponzi scam, but nothing like the emergence of global debt scam, with global debt shooting skyward in the trillions of dollars each year creating Ponzi bubbles across the world.

        The banks in 1971 just invented a bigger scam than that of the gold standard


        • Deco

          Nixon faced a choice.
          i) Tell the American people that the Vietnam episode was a pointless waste of men, materials, and money. Basically, he could have admitted that the politicians had no idea what they were doing.
          ii) Kick the can down the road. He could have shoved the bill into to future and let the young people get stuck with the bill.

          He kicked the can down the road. Typical politician. Sustain the political objectives, and destroy the economic wellbeing of the people.

      • Is it savers or borrowers that create credit?
        “A deposit created through lending is a debt that has to be paid on demand of the depositor, just the
        same as the debt arising from a customer’s deposit of checks or currency in the bank. Of course they do not
        really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the
        borrowers’ transaction accounts.” — Federal Reserve Bank, Chicago, Modern Money Mechanics
        Here are some calculaton of the expansion of euro “money” http://vimtrading.blogspot.com/2011/01/ecb-money-supply-irish-house-prices.html
        I’m suggesting David’s point is misleading not false, its is not his first time making it and now others are rehasing this inaccuracy about savers

        • @cbweb, @Irish Sovereignty Thanks for the clarification. I’m not here to defend our host, he a big boy and can look after himself :)

          I am familiar with the difference between fiat money and commodity-backed money.

          Although all the Irish banks completely abandoned fractional reserve lending by 2003, they could do so because of the comparatively limitless investment available from German and French financial institutions. From my point of view, whether German and French savers facilitated Ireland’s spending spree directly or indirectly doesn’t seem particularly important (though it should be of concern to those ‘savers’, alas I see little evidence that they give a flying fig about the impropriety of their own financial systems as the primary cause of this mess. )

          What seems more relevant, as you point out, is the concept of getting rich not by creating anything of value but by creating debts.

  8. irishminx

    I give this to you to lighten up, my mood, :)
    For the craic …………..Enjoy!

    A farmer named Bill was overseeing his herd in a remote mountainous pasture in Scotland when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust..

    The driver, a young man in a Brioni suit, Gucci shoes, RayBan sunglasses and YSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the farmer, “If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, will you give me a calf?”

    Bill looks at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looks at his peacefully grazing herd and calmly answers, “Yes, why not?”
    The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell notebook computer, connects it to his Cingular RAZR V3 cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another NASA satellite that scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop and exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg.Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot that the image has been processed and the data stored.

    He then accesses an MS-SQL database through an ODBC connected Excel spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, receives a response. Finally, he prints out a full-colour, 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized HP LaserJet printer, turns to the farmer and says, “You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves.”

    “That’s right. Well, I suppose you can take one of my calves,” says Bill.

    He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on with amusement as the young man stuffs it into the boot of his car.

    Then Bill says to the young man, “If I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my calf?”

    The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, “Yes, why not?”

    “You’re a Member of the European Parliament”, says Bill.

    “Amazing! That’s correct,” says the yuppie, “but how did you guess that?”

    “It was easy.” answered the farmer. “You showed up here even though nobody invited you; you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked. You used millions of pounds worth of equipment trying to show me how much more you know than I do; and you don’t know a thing about how working people make a living – or about cows, for that matter. This is a herd of sheep…

    Now give me back my dog.

  9. Today after I learned the M Martin was elected I was hoping it was a moment of change for the better for the country and I was subscribing to Tims mantra to reform from within .

    I have just been listening to him talk on prime time tv and I am appalled at how he explains the system of economics and banking and regulations etc I am honestly very very very disapointed .What we have today is a new dog with the same spots only maybe these are more red from Cork.

    His mindset is from the school of knocks and knockers and bull and bollocks.

    • Tim

      John ALLEN, I found him unconvincing and uninspiring.

      • MadaboutEire

        I can speak with authority for reasons I will not go into. Martin is the same old brush, and all will end in tears and not too far from now.

        Fianna Fail still do not realise what is about to befall them despite the rhetoric laden speeches and apologies. It is aking to the Irish Parliamentary party and the 1918 election, there is a disconnect which is about to expose itself. Sinn Fein know this well and have no doubt decided to keep Gerry far from the mike lest they snatch defeat from the jaws of political expansion in the Republic. Labour rightly fear them, all they need do is look at the SDLP. The political and economic conditions in the Republic will see a polarizing of views as the external debt bites home, it is unsustainable but Labour and FG like the Weimar government have decided to do the right thing by the markets and will not countenance the inevitable structured default, the citizens will be made suffer and the society will implode.

        What remains of FF is as blind as the three blind mice. The reckoning is coming. What has to be, will be. The game has moved on, the personalities have not.

        • My perusal of his body language indicates his deep sense of insecurity ‘ continuously holding his finger to his lips’ while being interviewed .This seems to set off a ‘dither stutter, dither stutter ‘ like a double decker bus into a train tunnel.There is an indication that he delivers ‘a one large plaster will fit all wounds’.He states ‘we have to learn’ but never points the finger at the cause nevermind search for the proper solution.
          He is very authoritarian and bullying and tells the viewer to shut up.He likes us all to believe what he is ‘feeling’ is what matters to all of us and we must not ask why.

          • I believe we have a ‘mystic martin ‘who places his trust in telepathy.

          • MadaboutEire

            Body language is one thing, and you are correct, while his verbal skills are very poor (just watch how quickly he goes on the defensive), I heard him on Newstalk this morning and yet again it was an example of how not to conduct an interview, it was so bad I switched it off. I agree with your point about a deep insecurity and in my experience people like that display aggressive tendancies to compensate for their short comings, it is a principle feature of the governing elite, takes no time at all for the aggression to come out.

            At the end of the day, an individial who sat at the cabinet table, had access to virtually all the information, could have influenced policy if he had the courage to speak up but apparently didn’t is not someone I would ever like in a leadership role, that entire cabinet is utterly discredited by both their action and inaction.

  10. persilschein

    David, the difference between your analysis and what we’ve gotten in terms of action grows wider and wider all the time.

    Although I am thankful you have not entered politics, as an aside, I am not enthusiastic of what the result of the election will be. I hope people will focus on what they hope the future will be rather than reacting in anger. The next few weeks could be a good time to focus on what the future should be, individual by individual.

  11. Tim

    Folks,a very extensive manifesto by one man here:


    (via Constantin Gurdiev)

  12. Tim

    “Our object in building up the country economically must not be lost sight of. That object is not to be able to boast of enormous wealth or of a great volume of trade, for their own sake. It is not to see our country covered with smoking chimneys and factories. It is not to show a great national balance-sheet, nor to point to a people producing wealth with the self-obliteration of a hive of bees. The real riches of the Irish nation will be the men and women of the Irish nation, the extent to which they are rich in body and mind and character.”

    Michael Collins 1890-1922

    • wills


      Quote by Collins is more relevant now than ever before.

      What this tells us about the *state of the nation* can only be but that Ireland as a democratic republic been a work in progress may at anytime click into this, so far, unmet destiny and make real Collins vision of what can be.

      Despite the loons who sit in the shadows trying to scare of those who strive to show one can use peace to excel.

    • I’m fairly happy that our host is not running, though he would have made a fair go if it I’m sure. One thing is clear from this quote and something I have stated elsewhere: we need nation builders, not economists in power.

      In fact as our host has pointed out many times, you start with a vision, then hire the economists to make it happen. We, along with the rest of the developed world have gotten that ass-backwards for the last couple of decades. Collin’s words are neither left, nor right, they are universal.

  13. MadaboutEire

    As the old African proverb goes: “The beautiful are yet to be born, the ugly are yet to die.”

    All is greed, whether it be for property, money, women, fast cars or cocaine.

    The price of such greed which leads to excess can be all consuming and has taken lives as we have seen. It is a serious business and not to be trifled with. Those currently at Davos would do well to remember the lot of the rich man and poor man for they eat from the same bowl with altogether different consequences.

    As the Oracle at Delphi warned thousands of years ago: “Nothing to excess”. Pity so few heed such wise advice.

    As for Solomon, the King who sent the husband of the woman he desired to the front so he would be killed, well he came to his senses and asked not for riches but for wisdom while Herod’s mouth was greater than his sense, nor did he comprehend the woman he had invited into his life, his price was high, haunted by the image of John the Baptist’s head.

    As for Berlusconi, the comment of one of the young women in relation to him was revealing and seemed to come from someone way beyond her years, but she said despite all his money he was a man who was not happy, indeed, he was a man without wishes. Such a person is spiritually dead inside and therefore no longer truly exists, for within the spirit dwells God and a life without God some say is a life not worth living.

    The desires of people are great, human nature is fundamentally flawed but you do not put out a fire by pouring petrol on it.

  14. Bunga Tax



    You’ll save a few bob and keep your wife sweet if you give up your visits to the lapdancing club — and head to the circus instead.

    You pay 13.5 per cent VAT on admission to a lapdancing club “where a live performance is included as part of the admission fee”. However, you won’t pay any VAT on admission fees to a circus, castle or historic home.

    If you can avoid concerts where drink is served, you’ll also do well. “Tickets to a live music or theatre gig are exempt from VAT,” says Mr O’Brien.

    “But if you can consume food or drink during the performance, then the ticket is liable to 13.5 per cent VAT.”

  15. Harper66

    Pity david is not running. This election is going to be very dirty. A casual glance at some of the work of the FF/FG/Labour Trolls on Politics.ie will confirm this.

    For the past few months I was working uner the assumption that a small group of independents were going to form a loose alliance (standing on the platform of political and economic reform)and go in with FG.

    Clearly the will for change is not there in FG or Labour…… and well FF are FF so no change there.

    This election is being fought on “smokes and daggers” no real debate, the critical issues are not being discussed. This is caused by arrogance within FG and Labour.

    Paul M posted a comment under Davids piece about not running for election which I thought was a good strategy, Vote independent or vote Sinn Fein. ( I have never voted for Sinn fein before this and have no links to the party)

    The real issue at the heart of this election is whether people are going to vote for a continuance of gombeen politics or they will send out a clear message for change….

    • Independent or Sinn Fein

    • We are facing a situation where there will no real opposition in the Dail. That should scare people!

      We are being fed crap on the Irish news bulletins about things which are of no interest at all to anyone who thinks and that is the main problem – no-one is thinking

      There is no way I am willing to let Labour, FF and FG do my thinking for me and remain quiet while they implement policies which bully, demoralise and destroy the lives on ordinary people up and down this country

      They may be nice individuals and no doubt their families and friends would testify to that but collectively they are dangerous and need to be kept in check. If we don’t keep them in check then they will walk all over us

      • Harper66

        “There is no way I am willing to let Labour, FF and FG do my thinking for me and remain quiet while they implement policies which bully, demoralise and destroy the lives on ordinary people up and down this country”


        People need to turn off the televisions and radios and take some time to think about what issues are really important to them.

        Bertie got an earful from a women today as he gave an interview – his reply that “people will do anything to get noticed” or something to that effect shows clearly the level of contempt he has for the Irish people.

        • “People need to turn off the televisions and radios and take some time to think about what issues are really important to them”

          Very well put Harper

          I am voting for an independent candidate and I made my mind up at the weekend. Now I have no need to watch RTE or Vincent Browne and can now spend my evenings more productively. All that petty squabbling would only wreck your head anyway

    • Deco

      No time for Sinn Fein. I think they are opportunists, and that “angry-act” nonsense that they do does not impress me. I can see through it. In time most people will see through it also.

      However, I can see that RTE coverage of the campaign is clearly biased in favour of anybody who is taking on SF. This is not in the remit of public sector broadcasting.

      But, I have been observing RTE coverage over the past few days. I am convinced that RTE are being supportive of the Irish Labour Party and FF. Gilmore and Burton committed a massive U-turn over shoving the finance bill through considering all the pantomine they created last December at the budget announcement. Doherty (SF) has been making a big issue of this, and Miriam O’Callaghan completely ignored him on Tuesday night over this. There has been no commentary on RTE news over this.

      And then we have coverage of the Michael Martin leadership battle. There are similarities with the time Ahern took over from Reynolds, in the manner in which the media presents the new clean hero.

      Instead the bad news yesterday was about FF dissident Mattie McGrath. Plus Lowry and Healy Rae. I actually think that McGrath, Lowry and Healy-Rae made very pertinent points issues that were unimplementable in the Finance Bill.

      I reckon there is an agenda on behalf of RTE. Basically, these are the two parties that can be relied upon to keep RTE or parts of RTE from being privatized.

      I will be monitoring the differences provided between RTE and other news organizations over any serious lapses by either FF or ILP candidates.

      • Then who would you suggest Deco?

        • Deco

          Usually, I look at the list and try to evaluate who is least likely to make matters worse. It is a really difficult task.

          I think the Shane Ross / Paul Sommerville cause is the only hope we have left. A lot of people know it. It would be great if there were more people who had the same ability and expertise. And I reckon we have them, in the Diaspora as David keeps hinting at. People who were too clean to make in it Ireland in the period before the labour market tightened up around 1998.

          Shane Ross Abu !!

        • Deco

          By the way, it is possible to completely disagree with SF, while also being critical of the fact that RTE are giving assistance to their rivals, and in effect playing tricks on SF.

          This sort of bias driven behaviour by RTE, deserves comment and criticism.

          • Sounds good Deco but there just are not enough of them

            Tactical voting could put FF in 4th place and drive a wedge between the big 3. Independent for me I think because they are more accountable and can’t hide behind a party machine

            The ILP are sure to lose votes after the media performance by Joan Boredom the other night when dealing with Joe Higgins on Vincent Browne. Her performance was overbearing and nauseating in the extreme and showed us that Labour are scared of the new left

            With the main parties we have two choices – austerity or austerity

          • adamabyss

            A mix of Independents and Sinn Fein for me too. I wonder will there be a Shane Ross type candidate in my constituency? I am in Dublin Mid West.

          • adamabyss

            Just found out that Eoin O’Broin is running here for Sinn Fein. Sent him a message on Twitter asking him why I should vote for him.

            I didn’t know Harney was in this constituency – she’s gone and good riddance.

            Gogarty is a distant relative but the Green Party are a disgrace – bye, bye.

            Curran is FF – get lost.

            Tuffy (Labour) – my mother said she’s a good woman – I might give her a number three dependant on further research.

            At the moment it’s SF and whatever Independents. If the Independent is better that Eoin O’Broin he/she will get number one, with SF number two, otherwise it’s roles reversed.

            Only seven candidates on the ticket so far – http://electionsireland.org/biographies.cfm?election=2011&cons=95&sort=alpha

            Don’t see any Independents as yet, watch this space.

            I am 38 and have never voted before and have been out of the country for 20 years, therefore any pointers about this constituency and it’s candidates gladly received from more experienced local / national voters.

          • Deco

            Burton does not like competition. She wants to call herself the left, and then get in and have fun like when she was a minister in the mid 1990s. And she sure had fun back then. Higgins put her out of a seat there for a while, and then he let rip at the Ditherer in the Dail.

            Shane Ross was on the Eamon Dunphy show on Sunday morning. He stated that he has been inundated with responses from people up and down the country who are sick to the teeth of the way that authority carries on in this country, the cronyism, the amatuerism, the wheeler delaing, etc.. From all over the place, he has people who want to help him. And he has to find a way of organizing this now.

            So, you never know – there is a strong chance that somebody will stand forward and want to do something about it.

            The people are looking for better candidates. The public pressure is on. For this reason there is a big push by FG and ILP to get this election completed in as few weeks as possible, before any serious threat develops.

            People asking David and Brian Lucey to step forward is an indication of this.

            Contrary to what RTE tell us, the more time the better as it gives Shane Ross and others time to get organized in as many constituencies as possible.

          • adamabyss

            Correction: United Left Alliance (know nothing about them) have two candidates and Worker’s Party have one.

          • adamabyss

            The candidate for Wicklow, Stephen Donnelly, has made a decent impression on me this evening on Vincent Brown – doing some research on him – looks well qualified.

      • Harper66

        excellent summary of the political landscape as it currently stands. In particular your mention of the media bias towards FF and ILP. Would this bias be due to the fact FF have been in government so long and labour have been in power by proxy for the same period through the corrupt beast that is ICTU?

        I do disagree with your commments on SF or perhaps that should be – agree with your comments up to a point. Here is the logic I am following …The main problem facing this country is the unsustainable level of national debt that arose from making the banking debts sovereign.

        The second problem is politcal corruption and cronyism – socialism for the insiders “captialism” for the rest.

        Now I will vote for what ever party is willing to take on these two issues and demand reform, at present this is Sinn fein and independents (I’m thinking Ross more so than Healy Rae.)

        What message does it send out the beast with three heads FF FG ILP if people are willing to shun SF who are trying to raise the important issues?… it makes no sense to me not to vote SF/independent.Perhaps if enough people began to think the same the other parties would adopt these policies..

        On a different point I think informed posters would be providing an invaluable service if they could facilitate a debate about the real issues of reneging on the bank debt… I know I for one would be most grateful to read a logical debate outlining the pros and cons of reneging on the bank debt.

        • adamabyss

          I second your final point Harper66. It would be great if David could take us through a structured default step by detailed step rather than the ‘regurgitation with metaphor’ that the above article represents.

        • Deco

          I think that we might not be at the point of remeging on bank debt yet, but that it will arise.

          We need an escape clause, from a legal perspective.

          And that escape clause is provided by Article 45 of Bunreacht na hEireann. Basically, the NAMA legislation, and the Bank gaurantee are contrary to Article 45 of the Irish Constitution. They were both signed by McUseless in a rush to get them into law.

          And also we must evaluate what is represented by the bank debt. There is 7 Billion Euro on deposit in the Isle of Man in Anglo. Before I would renege on anything I would freeze that to prevent it walking. This is simple to acheive. Just close the IoM bank branch of Anglo and transfer the funds back to HQ in an instant. An internal bank transaction. It should be done very quickly, because the staff in Angle are all connected with the clique who put the money into the IoM branch.

      • Thanks for the follow up on Burton and ILP Deco.

        I didn’t know she was in before and had previously rattled swords with Joe Higgins

        Labour are not left and they are scared of Joe Higgins because he is from the left and is a man of principle – even right leaning people respect him. There is no more formidable enemy to these people than a man of principle

        David once asked the question ‘where were you during the boom?’ – Higgins was out fighting for the Gama workers and got back the money that was stolen from them by their rogue FF sponsored employers

        Not flying to exotic locations on Paddy’s day junkets.

        There is an excellent 50 page pamphlet about the Gama struggle available from Joe Higgins and reading it makes you realise that here in Ireland we do have some people of real substance whose work goes largely unnoticed

      • MadaboutEire

        Just look at last night’s prime time. Literally on one side, Leo Varadkar and Alan Kelly, on the other sinn fein’s Caoimhin o Caolain and the shouting match began. Prime Time could have balanced it with Joe Higgins or a representative from United Left Alliance, but no, they opted for 2 v 1, because the 2 make up the next government, and you have to keep in with them for obvious reasons.

        Then look at story number two, Egypt, they interviewed an elderly academic I believe from Egypt beginning the interview with the old line ‘we are running a little short of time’, there was zero context in relation to the situation in Egypt, not a mention of the West’s involvement, no mention of US funding of 3 billion per year or what that money is used for, no doubt a huge percentage goes into ‘security’, which we will see on the TV over the next few days (it is the stuff we don’t see that we should be more concerned about).

        So no context, no real insight, just a few words from an academic with broken English and ‘sorry, we have run out of time’. You bet we have.

        As for Micheal Martin, he allowed the RTE cameras show up at his house where family, cousins and friends were all cheering his appointment and broke into ‘the banks of my own lovely lee’, such a scene was akin to 1971, should never have happened especially as 1000 per week head for the planes but then FF contempt for the sensibilities of others was always quite clear.

        Guess who is on the Pat Kenny Show right now, being given the oxygen of publicity……………….good old Micheal.

  16. Poor Show

    I liked the analogy of the red light district down at Dublin docks but I don’t care about Silv or the red tops. I buy the mirror on saturdays for the footie and the tv supplement but all the rest is a distraction for people who want to fill their minds with nonsense. It’s a bit rich having a laugh at Italian ‘Bunga bunga’ parties when we know that Ireland had it’s own versions of such parties not so long ago

    You are telling us stuff we already know and this article is not your finest effort. Can do better

  17. breltub

    David mentioned, in his young scientist article, the young scientist kids who developed their own OS based on Linux.

    Here is an idea I think could work given the right people, application and resources:

    -put together a group of investors to back these kids {state, private, whatever} and other like them
    -develop the OS properly and flesh out a 2, 5 and 10 year plan to build up a good business whose aim is to one day spread its wings and go solo [no state intervention]
    -Reopen the Dell computer manufacturing plant in Limerick as a semi-state company making good quality computers running the new os, and any other new products coming out of the R&D programme of this venture
    -Set up 3 different sectors to this company

    Software/Hardware/Power supply

    Software – Use our graduates for our own benefits,allow the creative forward thinkers to use their talent here to realise their potential.

    Hardware – cloud computing,processing power,connectivity, a new world awaits. Use our computer engineers and software developers to push forward this wave of development

    Power supply – This is going to be crucial in years ahead. Use an R&D department as a testing ground for batteries for the laptops, or other power sources the lessons learned from this will be applicable when it comes to generating and maintaining our own power supplies when Oil become too expensive

    -Government departments to use Irish only OS and Computers in all Departments and schools for education
    -Kit out all schools with new Tech departments and get the state to go on a school rebuilding programme, in many cases we need to over haul the school buildings and also the curriculum taught to reflect the modern world

    This last step is to give the company a large customer and feedback as it would exposure the computers and OS to lots of users.

    In 10-15 years the aim would be to build it up to take on Dell, Microsoft, Google and Apple, or whatever other new company breaks into that bracket between now and then

    That’s just and IT idea, I’m sure people could come up with medical, pharmaceutical, food processing or other ideas


    • Blackpigsdyke

      Hi Brian,

      I like the proposal as it mirrors to an extend what the Finnish did with Nokia. The Dublin Web Summit 8th March @ TCD could be an great event to pick up support for the proposal. Adh mor ort!

      “We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars” Oscar Wilde

  18. Deco

    { With all the serious stuff about the Dail, the election, politics and our predicament, we need a distraction. }

    I thought the purpose of the current “optics” nonsense in the Dail (and tomorrow the Seanad) was to provide a distraction from the state of Club Med debt.

    Forget Berlosconi for a moment. We had Bertosconi here married to the CIF, but also co-habitating with ICTU and in the process fathering loads of quangoes. And for more fun he had a long running affair with IBEC. He got into bed with the FAI and several other organizations every now and again. None of this got splashed over the News of The World – instead just his pronouncements on the latest events in Man Utd.

    We now know, that it was the people who got screwed the most from all of this.

  19. coldblow

    I thought it was an entertaining article using as it does such a cheeky simile.

    I’d long been aware that the Anglo-US financial model was out of control and headed for disaster but I had the impressoin that the European financial system was ‘conservative and boring’, ie what was required. So it came as a shock to realize that this was not the case and that they were up to their armpits in the mess too. When David first raised this issue over a couple of years ago it was probably a step too far for most to swallow but that has since changed. There are, I understand, arguments to temper this analysis, eg that even without the euro Ireland would never have summoned up the financial discipline to resist the loans, that it doesn’t excuse our own lack of banking supervision etc etc. But on balance they were no better than Berlusconi. How long will it take the Germans to realize that they’ve been abused by their own banks? (yeah, I know it goes deeper than that, that their economic strategy seems to have benefitted from these loans to their creditors etc)

    From the little I’ve read, there seems to be an unbridgeable gulf between idealistic European rhetoric and European actions which seem to have been directed to furthering corporate and banking interests.

    Just to get back to Berlusconi, seeing as David mentions him. I remember the blonde newsreader on Italian tv used to sit under a glass-topped table wearing a short skirt while in the news items, when they weren’t playing sentimental background music, they invariably did a close-up of the prettiest girl in the crowd/ room, just like in the Benny Hill show. And now they are affecting shock and horror as they lap up the sordid details – all in the national interest of course, because it raises ‘serious moral issues’. Ipocrosia?

    I haven’t read up on it but I get the impression that the case for the prosecution rests on the fact that some of the girls were underage seeing as other routes to the moral high ground are out of bounds for being ‘Victorian’, ‘judgemental’ etc. And a good thing too. Because, really, s*x is such a beautiful thing really, if people could only understand that (but they won’t will they?). And it’s natural too. (The asterix is for my computer network censor – it’s a pc pc – hope it didn’t pick up on Benny H*ll.) By the way, I heard Andy Gray’s dismissal described on Radio Cymru as being for “sylwadau amhriodol” which means “inappropriate remarks”, so rest assured that he won’t get away with it either. Just to think there are still saps out there who don’t yet know what “inappropriate” means. Sad or what.

    • coldblow

      Dunno who nobbled Gray (I’ve had a soft spot for him since he described a Palace-Blackburn fixture 30 years ago as “the team of the eighties against the team of the 1880s” but I hate the way he belittles my efforts at FIFA 11 on the playstation). I think it was Adrian Chiles who squealed on Carol Thatcher. Dunno who shopped Big Ron before that – a bit of an easy target you’d have thought.

  20. erm… there’s a few things missing – the money the German Banks lent out did not come from German Savers, it came from the Federal Reserve Bank who loaned out 5 or 6 trillion to european and african and south american banks in 2007/8/9…. at very low interest rates, which the ECB then loaned it to smaller banks at a slightly greater interest rate, who then leant it out at a greater rate….



    Of course NO-ONE is reporting this…. least of all the European Media, because it reveals the ECB to be just as phucked as the smaller banks….

    As always occurs, the abusers blame the victims…. just as the rich blame the poor for being poor….

  21. paulmcd

    Here is some PORN on the national economy:

    Enjoy! ;)

    UK Government debt is today at 60% of GDP
    S&P on Ireland: “The general Government debt is expected to rise to 124% of GDP at the end of 2011 from 68% at the end of 2009″

    Ireland will be trying to achieve budgetary cuts in ONE YEAR – 6 billion – equivalent to what the UK intends to cut over a period of 4 years. UK RESULT for final quarter 2010: GDP falls (-0.5%), with some independent analysts claiming that result is NOT weather related.

    UK will cut 80 billion from its budget tailored for 60 million inhabitants over 4-year period: 20 billion per year for a population which is 15 times population of Irish Republic.

    25 Jan 2011 Greece Default With Ireland to Break Euro by 2016 in Global Investor Poll

    “SO…. on one side we have Ireland whose bond holders, its people, have between them a total GDP wealth of 0.207 trillion euros – (2008 FIGURE) – who are being FORCED, against their will, to pay Anglo Irish bank’s debts to its bond holders, who between them hold 20.8 Trillion euros. The people of Ireland are paying to, and protecting the wealth and power of, people who have 100 times more wealth!”

    READ MORE: http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2010/10/who-are-bond-holders-we-are-bailing-out.html

    Cost of Anglo bailout to date: 35 billion euros. 750 billion euros has been set aside as rescue fund for PIGS. Irish economy is 1% of Euro economy. If every EC nation had its own ANGLO the rescue fund would need to be scaled up to €3,500,000,000,000, ie 3.5 trillion euros, from current 750 bn.

    ALLIED IRISH BANK has the potential to cost 2 ANGLOS and to suck 70 billion euros from the Irish economy within 3 years, a process which would be accelerated by the ECB interest rate rises of 1.25%, from current level of 1% to 2.25%, which the ESRI has projected to be reached by end of 2012.

  22. wills

    Cbweb, I’ve left a return post to your order to me to *grow up* :-)

  23. Anybody catch PK snippet on radio this AM, caught a piece, NAMA breaking its own rule on Competitive Tendering Process, eg €9m hotel with 50% haircut, NAMA selling it privately at €4.5m, the cronies buying it at this discount, then selling it immediately for eg €6m, pocketing instant profits of €1.5m in above example.

    Taxpayer is at the loss of the €1.5m. There is no Public tendering process for these properties and they are being sold privately with tip offs to those in the know, that they are up for sale. NAMA is avoiding its duty to maximise the price/value for taxpayers?

    Anyone got more info on this new NAMA monster story?

    • Dorothy Jones

      cb, there’s an excellent piece of analysis [as always] on this issue on namawinelake.

      • Dorothy, which article, don’t see it on http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/

        there’s one on sharing info with revenue commissioners, but its not that one?

        • Dorothy Jones

          Apolgies cb, I mixed that one up. Will try and follow your story and let you know if I get any information.
          I have very formed views on NAMA and was against the legislation before it was enacted. I have seen many things first hand over the years, but a detailed discussion belongs on another forum.

          • No problem, dropped in the links to link below in later post! But here you are:


            Thursday 27th January 2011
            It has been claimed that people who owe hundreds of millions of Euro to the banks are buying back their debt at rock bottom prices through third parties and offshore companies. Fianna Fail Senator Mark Daly (whose family is in the auctioneering business) claims some property is being sold back for “virtually nothing” to the original owners and that NAMA is not following legislation enacted by the Oireachtas.
            Mark Daly joined Pat along with Deputy Business Editor of the Irish Independent Emmet Oliver.

            podcasts here:


  24. coldblow

    As I said above, the idea of the ECB/EU bearing some responsibility seemed rather extreme, say 3 years ago (or people were just keeping quiet), but it is now widespread. Even by John Bruton, who has written to to Barroso:


    Bruton still accepts, however, that the main blame lies on the Irish side: with the banks, regulators etc. He includes the people who took out the loans. While those who borrowed to buy a second or further properties should accept their share of responsibility I think this is going too far on ordinary homeowners as it is accepted (isn’t it?) that the price of housing is determined directly by the amount lenders are prepared to lend. (I know many didn’t buy because they knew the prices were unrealistic but I think it is unfair to expect the same foresight from your ordinary man in the street (subject as he is to lemming impulses, peer pressure, greed, ignorance, advertising, ‘animal spiritis’ and other delusions – be they bestowed by Nature or self-inflicted – that he is simply not equipped to deal with) as you would from the ECB.

    Indeed, I think most of the blame rests with Europe and the ECB.

  25. Today on Max Keiser:

    More bankers arrested in Iceland
    US and other bankers meeting in Davos this week
    100 Tn of new Ponzi debt being created
    25% of Tunisian gold gone missing
    60% German gold is held in US Fed and US considering commandeering this gold
    Wage and inflation problems to follow Australian floods
    Bono backed development funds swamped in fraud
    Bono is an investment banker disguised as a rock star
    Bono is a shcmuck

    Russian people used to read Pravda and assume the opposite. Sounds like RTE snooze

  26. Philip

    The way I see it is we have a massive deleveraging underway. The local yokels running the shop here are irrelevant. We are at the start of witnessing a tsunami of runs on banks.

    The massive chip cash-in is about to get underway. Burn the bonderholders? Sure…just means the banks will collapse and vanish along with the deposits of savers – not just in Ireland but for our unfortunate German and French friends as well. The trick is to pull your cash and convert it to something useful before anyone else. There is no other way around this. I just do not see what the ECB can do to stop it. The IMF are pressuring the ECB becasue this will blow them apart as well. The chip cash-in is going global.

    The thing is, if you try and inject more funny money into the system, the debts remain uncrystallised and the bankers can still have fun cashing in while credit keeps the ball rolling with ever increasing inflation.

    As a wise friend reminds me…do not knock the unequivocal Sinn Fein statements of burn the bond holders. Remember these are the only party we know that can get money out of the banks :). Seriously though, prepare to be dissappointed. After Micheal MoJo Martin’s first perfrmances wonderfully supported by RTE, there will be hung dail for sure. You know what? I do not think it matters. Keep reading the international papers. The big RESET is coming.

    • coldblow


      Isn’t it more likely to be solved by QE (printing money) which just devalues the value of everyone’s savings and leaves the debts intact but payable?

      • Philip

        No. QE works when it is the only game causing money to “appear” and injecting credit to get over the recessionary glitch. Now that banks (globally) have no real assets, QE merely injects cash into banks without creating credit and forces inflation by virtue of devaluing the currency being printed. In these times people are doing the worst thing possible – Saving – because business and jobs are waning. There is now a real and present danger you will never see it back because sovereign default is a reality. The trick is to prevent a run – in the short term – on money that is not there. And right now…I see no solutions. All the signs are that we are headed for a default as no one has any real cash.

  27. Dorothy Jones

    An article in the FAZ [Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung] yesterday stated that Klaus Regling considered that the interest rate on the EU part of the ‘bailout’ could be reduced below the ca. 6% interest rate.
    Now, the issue may be an academic one against a backdrop of possible default, but nonetheless, I doubt if it has even registered on the radar of the DOE.
    The article was on the EFSF, explaining the mechanism. Interesting reading indeed……..

    • there was a huge commission bribe for a sneaky Irish mandarin who softened the deal with their Capone – someone was on the take – its time to audit the agreement and flow of monies paid especially the upfront deposit downpayment

      • It reminds me of why the auditors did not properly audit the Directors Loans of Anglo – this is surround racketeering where you see all and you get all ….for a price

  28. Philip

    The only way forward is a brand new banking system with new rules and regulations for creating money. We see what happens when money generation falls out of sovereign control. The end game is an almightly splat. This latest fiasco has been ongoing since the 80s and collapse is overdue.

    If Ireland issued a new currency in about 3-4 months time – just when the banks were about to implode along with the Euro etc, we’d be off to a good start.

  29. BnB

    “It is clear that if the ECB wants to be credible, it needs to employ a Max Clifford and change its story. It should come clean and ‘fess up. What we need is a full confession that it hosted the credit orgy”.

    People usually hire only Max Clifford only when the media is about to reveal all anyway. The EU and ECB haven’t had to worry about that yet because nearly all of the media has given them an easy time and we’re always hearing instead about the “bailout for Ireland” or “bailout for Greece” for what is really a bailout for the banks.

    A couple of months ago the the German magazine publishers organisation, the VDZ , gave its European of the Year award to EU President Barroso “as a fighter for a citizens’ Europe, for a stable sustainable solidarity-based economic and monetary union, for reducing bureaucracy, for effective Europe-wide supervision of financial markets and for asserting Europe’s global role”. We know whose side he is really on from his furious reply to Joe Higgins where he passed all the blame from European banks onto Ireland.

    • Deco

      It would be worth the effort to investigate the list of advertisers in that magazine, VDZ, would reveal a link to the holders of sub bonds in Irish Banks.

      “Support the advertising sponsors of VDZ”….

      • BnB

        It’s not a magazine, it’s the organisation of German magazine publishers, with hundreds of members ( http://www.vdz.de/333.html?letter=Alle ). Whatever about the advertisers, Germany’s biggest bank Deutsche Bank was a major shareholder in Germany’s biggest magazine and newspaper publisher Axel Springer for many years until a few months ago when, I think, it sold most of its remaining 8% share.

  30. Deco

    “Too many hotels built for this country dot IE”


    I wonder will these end up in NAMA also….

    • Any of these Hotels in Dublin? Because the state could take over a Dublin based Hotel to accommodate the T.D.s. Then each TD could be given a Bus/Train pass and we would save a fortune on expenses!

      • Deco

        …the state could take over a Dublin based hotel…
        actually I think the state are loaded up with Dublin hotels (also)….

        Better idea…how about moving the Dail to a Hotel somewhere really isolated in Kerry …so that the rest of the country can get on with it’s affairs with all the stupidity, pantomine and nonsense getting in the way at the behest of the vested interests ???

        though if that happened Ivor Callelly would probably declare his principal place of residence as being Dublin 3….

  31. Deco

    David – Fantastic article.

  32. NAMA Monster …. banks not pursuing developers….really sickening stuff this!!!


    Thursday 27th January 2011
    It has been claimed that people who owe hundreds of millions of Euro to the banks are buying back their debt at rock bottom prices through third parties and offshore companies. Fianna Fail Senator Mark Daly (whose family is in the auctioneering business) claims some property is being sold back for “virtually nothing” to the original owners and that NAMA is not following legislation enacted by the Oireachtas.
    Mark Daly joined Pat along with Deputy Business Editor of the Irish Independent Emmet Oliver.

    podcasts here:


    • The real problem is the Chinese walls, lack of transparency, lack of accountability, ‘commercial sensitivity’ legislation, that hides the breadcrumb trail, so the public paying for this, can’t audit what is going on?

      We are still in a situation where the banks who hold this property are pumping up the value of property to prop up the bank balance sheets all paid for by citizens..

      NAMA organising private treaty sales and not public auction as it should by legislation.

      Nama should publish like Amazon do what is bought, what is sold, so there is transparency.

      Plus hundreds of millions being paid out to developers to finish properties…scam here as well..who is getting the credit.

      Cherry picking deals are about to be done on a vast tranche of property to be sold in the next six months.

      Comptroller and auditor general should be publishing information!

      List of Nama sales should be read into the Seanad records!!

      We need chapter and verse on what is going on!

      We need disclosure.

      • Deco

        The thing about the way business works in Ireland is that NAMA will provide some sort of veneer. They will produce statements to dismiss concerns of the naysayers.

        At yet, at the same time you will have rumours running around about what is going on. You might get the odd leak, but that is about it.

        I reckon at some stage something about the NAMA debacle will end up on Wikileaks. But if the source is ever found for anything like that, then that individual will be finished career wise in Ireland. And people know this before making any revelations.

      • You would never get to the bottom of it all even with a very long spoon

        At the moment the country is falling into election hysteria and we have a muppet show in full swing

        Meanwhile the fly boys are behind the curtain filling their bags with swag while everyone else is watching the show

        It all sounds like a bad comedy and I keep expecting to see Gene Wilder popping up on the PK show

      • Dorothy Jones

        Agree CB. Some independents have the dismantling of NAMA on their agenda.
        An example of the ‘kid glove’ approach to developers was well illustrated with the RTE and Newstalk interviews with Simon Kelly upon publication of his ‘Anglo’ book some months previously. I was contacted by Newstalk to ‘go on’ when he was being interviewed on ‘Breakfast’. I have worked in the industry for 20 years and with some of the players, I understand when the concept of negligent misstatement in relation to financial advice applies, and when it does not. Anyhow, they [NT] pulled out at the last minute. Ivan [Yates] talked about the ‘fascinating insight’ into the developer world. Simon played the hard done by poor mouth. I dont eat breakfast, but had I done so, I wouldn’t have kept it down. If I had gone on the show, I would have had him [SK] for breakfast though……..

    • wills


      I reckon this is the next phase of the POnzi scam hatched by the insiders back in 1999 when private banks flooded Ireland with loans funneled thru property developers to start the ball rolling on property prices goin thru the roof to put to work the banks boom and bust model and make a killing.

      • @ Wills, see post below on a reset, but only if nationally as a nation we are willing and able to grow up:)

        Otherwise, its Ceaucesco begging bowl for the Irish vassals in perpetuity

  33. wills

    Irish Sovereignty.

    Seems to me u are essentially aligned with David in the fundamentals.

    On your point regarding savers ~

    Saving s from Germans n French opened up more and more fanning out of loans

    ~ throughout the private banking system thereby

    ~ making available to irish private banks a slush fund on the interbank lending market which

    ~ by the by streamlined from the euro provided funds for Irish banks to use to

    ~ then fan out loans to developers and mates in Ireland which inflated a property bubble and became a Ponzi scam.

    Thats what david is getting at, but to repeat this in detail in article may loose the average joe readers interest.

  34. wills

    Irish Sovereignty.

    I personally reckon u are spot on to highlight this though.

    If one take s a look back over this property bubble private banking inspired / engineered property price bubble.

    Now if one looks at the property price bubble and makes the links correctly one will then and can only but come to the conclusion that the banks fanned out loans by whatever means and devices and instruments etc, the banks fanned out loans to levels which put in jeopardy their own business models.

    But not only that, the banks flooded the economy with debt to such a level that it can only but be concluded dude to the size of the debts opened up that the debts could never be paid back and so putting the banks into bankruptcy and yet the banks kept going loaning out monies they didnt have.

    So, the banks busted their own businesses seemingly knowingly and then the banks where bailed out from inflicting this mortal wound on themselves.

    And this is what Davids article is all about up top.

  35. On a Side note there is a zero rate for non resident irish companies and in the past many of these committed acts of fraud that was tolerated by the government until external pressure was forced on them by the EU to regulated them more .

  36. Tim

    Folks, Here’s a link to the 2011 election info site run by @adriankavanagh


  37. wills


    Interesting read on post above.

    A country can always restructure the debt and print its own money , this will avert deposits going up in smoke and we will get the reset to boot.

    • Philip

      We have 2 choices….
      Go it alone. Dump Euro, Reset the banks, Own currency 2 years of penury – not much worse than it is now tax and service wise and then we are off to the races on our own terms.
      Stay with Euro….10 years later, things will be far worse and we’d be the vassal of a vassal. EuroCrats are EuroCraks

  38. Furrylugs

    Where are you? Are you preparing the new written proclamation ?


    This time the signatories must not allow themselves to die like the last bunch in 1916

    • Hello John. I was working deep undercover. I crawled into a burrow to escape the incessant drivel emanating from the circle of friends we call a government.

      This Smaghi fellow is no friend of Ireland or the EU. Even Merkel is prepared to discuss the European Insurance Policy being sold to Ireland. It can’t be called a bailout anymore since every bondholder and economist knows that we will default at a given point, probably in 2016.
      For the banking vested interests, led by their rottweiler ECB chums, to expect us to pay a 100% interest mark-up on a loan where 20% is retained by the lender to maintain the AAA rating of the bonds issued to raise the money is the sort of credit-craic that got us into this shambles in the first place.
      We need to go back and go back hard with people who know what they are talking about. Whatever about a national government, we need a national monetary committee chaired by David McWilliams and staffed by experts in international finance to deal with these pawnbrokers.
      Incidentally, wasn’t it grand to see FG and the ILP engineer the finance bill through the Dáil? Talk about Irelands Pontius Pilate moment. Now Leni gets blamed for everything, Ditherer gets away with waxing lyrical about stadiums and a FG/ILP government wrings their hands about austerity, whilst crying “It wasn’t me Guv, honestly”. Complete chicanery.
      And now it turns out that NAMA is selling back discounted loans to agents of those who produced the original bad debt so they can generate cash to pay off the massive legal fees.

      Hell of a country.But just Hell if you’re not part of the game.

      Btw, the next Government will be a Labour / FF / Independent Coalition. FG keep shooting themselves in the foot.

      You heard it here first. Put the bets on.

  39. Deco

    I don’t know what this will achieve, if anything. Sarkozy’s backers are not going to back down on the bank debt.


  40. @Deco @John Allen

    Deco’s link above:

    “Leader Enda Kenny and Finance spokesperson Michael Noonan will meet with the President of the European Commission Jose Manuel Barroso.

    They want to try and renegotiate the terms of the bailout should they assume power after the General Election.

    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kenny-travels-for-talks-with-barroso-on-bailout-491057.html#ixzz1CJyBF0vT

    Barossa: “Sorry, your banks got you into the mess, its not our problem. If we cut a deal for you, it could bring calamity to the European banking sector. Most European countries are doing ok under this system plus citizens across Europe would not support their banks and their money being used to bail you out. Perhaps in two years we might restructure the IMF/EU bailout by a couple of percentage points, but that’s about it.”

    The problem with the above is Noonan may come back to Ireland, there’ll be an election, and a ragbag government of FF/FG will hairshirt this place stealing taxpayers money to give to the banks for the next ten years in a vassal state.

    The solution to this problem is the following, it is difficult, everyone will have to pull together, but read this first: http://bit.ly/gsPO8Y

    “…Dr Roubini argued that compelling senior bondholders to take pain was part of the solution to the financial bind in Ireland.

    “You have to have a whole programme that leads to fiscal austerity that leads to stabilisation of the public debt, which resumes economic growth and competitiveness, so the challenges the country is facing are very difficult.

    Dr Rogoff, a professor of economics at Harvard, said Ireland had “good fundamentals” outside the debt problem and said most of the country’s growth story was real. For any incoming government, the task would be to maintain that and not undermine it.

    However, he said it will be difficult for Ireland to avoid some form of debt restructuring. Asked if he was referring to sovereign or bank debt, he said “I’m afraid it might be the sovereign debt”, since the sovereign had guaranteed bank debt.

    “It’s not reasonable to say that senior bank bondholders should get bailed out and I think it undermines the whole sense of justice, the whole social fabric in Ireland and elsewhere to have these massive bailouts,” he said.

    He acknowledged the view of the European authorities that senior bondholder haircuts were “very dangerous” but the questions that arose were what was in Ireland’s interest and what was in Europe’s interest.”

    “There may be contagion. The question is how long can Ireland take the pain that’s necessary? A year, two years? Maybe. But three or four? Countries outside of Romania maybe, under Ceausescu, really haven’t done this and so it’s possible but it’s very demanding.”

    Also, Daniel Gros of http://www.ceps.eu/ made a similar point when interviewed on Morning Ireland, that we have a choice between long term Ceaucesco like austerity and a short 2 yrs sacrifice.

    We couldn’t do the following if we did not have good fundamentals, good export led growth, good agri sector, good corporate footprint. Because our manufacturing base has been decimated, its possible impact on that side of our economy is negligible.

    We need to reset the economy.

    Because banking debt has become sovereign debt and because of this we are within perhaps 2 yrs of a default, we need to do an orderly default right now.

    This means we have to leave the euro, it no longer has a future for us for the foreseeable future, at least 10 years, plus rising interest rates in Europe can catapult Ireland over the edge, even if we chose not to leave, but to stay. Also, leaving the euro would provide a solution to the peripheral problem from the European perspective.

    PuntNua or adoption of sterling as a currency to follow the euro could form the basis of bilateral support from the UK as we go through the process.

    The process would be similar to the Icelandic one. Debt restructuring would include burning senior bondholders. We would need interim support and aid from allies everywhere including close neighbours.

    The economy could be reset in as short a time as two years. But prospects for growth would be tremendously high thereafter.

    There are people ready to help with the transition.
    They would be a different bunch to the 1916 gang and might have foreigners on board such as Daniel Gros, Roubini, Stiglitz, Krugman, Morgan Kelly, Constantin Gurdgiev, Morgan Kelly, Karl Whelan, Brian Lucey and many others.

    We would take Ireland back from the gombeens and restore dignity and sovereignty? Any takers?

    • Deco

      I am not too sure what to make of Kenny and Noonan. I have no trust at all in anything that comes from Barosso. He was pushing for the deal so that his cronies and the cliques behind his mates in Portugal don’t get found out and locked up. And then there is Spain – the massive bull rambling sitting in the middle of the ECB shop of fine antiques. When Spain starts to rumble there will be chaos in the Euro zone.

      In fact the whole thing is going to descend into a farce. Another project to create a single state structure project that is ending in disaster….

      • Pedro Nunez

        Absolutely, Barosso is a stuffed shirt and needs to be called, unfortunately we’ve been so busy calling our own ‘stuffed shirts’ in Eire, that there doesn’t seem to a man left standing!

        People without a vision perish, and there is no leader with a collective vision for this country going forward, only commentators!

    • EUREKA :

      This is the rubicon moment you write about and what follows afterwards.

      Essentially there are three scenarios :

      No Time Re-Set Just Do It

      Two Year Time re-Set

      Long Term Time Re-Set

      Each of the above will have various consequences and social / financial costs .These need to be calculated and this is the sublime thought where no man has gone before .Its a Dr Spock moment into the new world of Economic Galaxy where life has yet to be found.Its an Inert Life where our food is fed to us in toothpaste tubes and where we pressurise our excrement into pinheads only to be recyled back again.Its a journey where we sleep wired to a computer to control our sexual energy into innate beings.We become bolloxed and castrated .

      The results will be the following :

      Immediate Action would keep our sanity and our bodies intact and we breath normally.

      Two year Strategy would result in we morphing into Lepracauns and living in a surreal world and nowhere to be seen .

      long Term Strategy would result in morphing into Dolphins forever and remaining below water and in negative equity.

      ( source : da wu yu code )

      • Rubicon word well chosen.

        Please factor into your costs the asset stripping vultures now circling as they prepare to take out our infrastructure, semi states, etc.

        This is the moment to do it!

        • If we don’t do it now, forget all the Lisbon arguments re sovereignty, independence, etc, we can basically kiss this country’s ass goodbye.

          We’re donkey island run by outside political and corporate interests:(

        • Les Predateur Vauteurs

          Rapacious Cannibals have been seen along our coastal ports recently masquarding as research vehicles .They were recognisable by their dark plumage and featherless heads and necks .Their antennae was emblazzoned on their upper deck and their bow was inscribed with a Las Vegas name showing Channel Isles Registration Flag.The smell of their cuisine was distinctly eastern with strong spices and with a chop stick display to adhere to their Feng Shui mantra energies.

          Their constant smiles were all that could be heard and their communications were in eye contact and neck reflex mythodology .

          Feeder boats ferried to and fro with carrion ( charcogne )foilage that seemed like silage harvesters and robotical drivers .

          The Roman Empire came with the IMF/ECB and now Quing Dynsty has overtaken to offload their egg layered tadpoles to infest all the waters around our isles.

      • Corrib gas field busy today then?

  41. Deco

    I bet this chap is sorry he did not get his start in Anglo Banglo….


    Cause if he did that sort of messing in anglo banglo, he would be a state employee for years into the future….

  42. May Day May Day Calling to the WORLD

    Ireland is Under ATTACK

    Repeat Repeat Under ATTACK

    We are EATING Ourselves

  43. Deco

    FAiken – you should sell that final year project you completed from 1994 concerning the non-feasibility of the Euro.

    Of course, with the Irish university sector desperate for EU funding, we can hardly expect them to give an A to a paper that tells us that the empire is a clueless project…

  44. Philip

    The Euro is is dire trouble becasue of lack of regulation during the ECB watch. They “are” the Central Bank. I am at a loss as to why we blame our own toothless central bank.

    Ireland is the 1st to fall. We are being used to protect the rest of the ediface from falling. Our negotiating stance is simple. We walk from the euro or we are genuinely bailed out at 0%. The Euro has no clothes and the EuroCraks know it.

    Still, I think we should start planning our exit sometime this year just when the run is about to start no matter what concessions we get. This thing is going to tank when Spain and Portugal starts to wobble. I feel sorry for the savers. It was not their fault. The Bond Holders should be left with worthless Euros by the end of 2011.

    • We got to prepare to exit now, re ” We walk from the euro or we are genuinely bailed out at 0%” is not going to happen economically or politically, so lets get ready to go, spread the word!

      It will be interesting to hear what Kenny and Noonan report happened at their meeting with Barrosa today, confidentiality will not be a good sign.

      • Watching the news, not a lot to be encouraged by, FG and LP seem to be blinkered with some notion they can negotiate some handout on the interest rate on the bailout, no question about the sovereign debt side of the balance sheet.

        They havn’t a bulls notion on what the depth of the real problem is, so we shouldn’t expect anything but fudgy lack of clarity from them as they kick the can ahead.

        Thx posters and host on this list who’ve helped with discussion/info and links over the past while.

        For me personally it has taken until today for my own position on this to crystallise to the rubicon moment of realisation of what needs to be done.

        Part of this for me is the acceptance that there will not be a bailout from EU/IMF, that is not a lot more economically and politically destructive compared to the merits of going it alone.

        We’ve had the bailout, but its only proved to be a trojan horse. The future within the EMU is Greeks bearing gifts!

        Make up your own minds, on where ye stand!

        • Pedro Nunez

          Ein Danaergeschenk
          Both German and English have expressions related to “Greeks bearing gifts” (i.e., the Trojan horse), but they don’t use the same idioms. While English concentrates on warning against Greeks with gifts, German emphasizes the gift itself. Ein Danaergeschenk is a “fatal gift” that brings misfortune or causes problems. For some reason, English doesn’t normally speak of a “Greek gift” and German doesn’t warn against “Greeks bearing gifts.”

  45. Bunga Bunga Bank Managers with Bunga Price Properties

    Fitzy owns / did own a share in a property located in the second most expensive place in the world after Monaco and its location is in Cap Ferat France where prices can be obtained for €70,000 a sq m or more.

  46. paddythepig

    The stories of waste in the public service I am hearing are shocking. It is going to end as money dries up. The wasters will not be happy.


    The Croke Park deal will be canned, and a voluntary redundancy scheme will be offered in the public service. John Gormley was the first politician to admit this yesterday. He is right.

    When that scheme is undersubscribed, a la the HSE, there will be involuntary redundancies in the public service. There will be no choice in the matter.

    Christophe Mueller in Aer Lingus is showing the way forward.

    There was a bunga-bunga party in the public service and semi-state sector over the past 10 years, and it’s over. For our children’s sake, it’s important to end this waste.

  47. Gege Le Beau

    Ok, had a think, can’t let circumstance quieten the voice.

    Scenes out of Egypt are astonishing.

    I agree with John Allen, there is an assault on working people and an effort to role back the welfare state and have people distracted by struggle, think people may need to come together outside of the normal structures which have so badly failed to preserve the integrity of the Republic.

    Chomsky has a nice discussion here, some 20 years old or so, so the warnings are out there

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