ON THE radio on Monday, Brian Lenihan spoke of “not showing his hand” to the European Commission. He suggested that we in Ireland had to “hold our nerve”. These phrases are not normally used in economic policy — rather, they come straight from the world of poker.
This language is appropriate as it probably best sums up the Government’s policy throughout the banking crisis — it has all been a big bluff.
Yesterday, the financial markets reacted to the gambler’s words by selling Irish bonds, thus driving the yield (at one stage) up from 5.78pc to 6.15pc.
Yields came down to 6.01pc, following rumours that the European Central Bank was buying Irish bonds. We are fast becoming a vassal state of the ECB, the only institution prepared to buy Irish bonds.
The ECB is doing this for one reason — to protect the bondholders of Anglo from the default which has to come. In this little game, we issue expensive IOUs at 6pc that the ECB buys with money it prints for nothing to keep open zombie banks that don’t lend. The ECB is doing this not to protect you, but to protect rogue creditors who have no right to expect that they will be paid.
This policy will not only ultimately bankrupt us but will leave us with an economy where small domestic business is hollowed out by the credit crunch, the public sector will be kept on a life-support machine for as long as possible and only the capital-intensive multinationals will thrive. But ultimately for the multinationals, the tax on their workers’ wages will act as a disincentive for them to invest.
When we get real, we will see that Anglo’s debts are likely to be in the region of €36bn — or roughly 50pc of its loan book of €72bn. As the bond market indicated yesterday, we are clearly running out of time, and contrary to the minister’s assurances, no one thinks the €25bn bailout of Anglo is “manageable”. This cavalier attitude to finance is frightening away proper investors. This is exactly how the Greek crisis started and we know how that ended.
The Government is bluffing with our future, and by extending the guarantee yesterday it is simply showing all the signs of panic, rather than firm financial management.
The guarantee, when it was introduced nearly two years ago, was a bluff. It had to be. There was no way Ireland could afford to bail out our banking system — one of the smallest banks in the system has gone properly bust — and despite Mr Lenihan insisting that it will be manageable, it has led to the ‘New York Times’ questioning whether Anglo will bankrupt this country.
Imagine what would happen if one of the two clearing banks went to the wall. There is no way we could afford it and no way that we ever could have afforded it.
The guarantee was a credible bluff two years ago. Now, however, it is far too dangerous and should be dropped unilaterally because to preserve it risks a much greater fiscal crisis. More egregiously, the guarantee is undemocratic. Lumbering the people with the sins of creditors, bankers and developers is unfair and totally unworkable.
This is why the markets are selling Ireland. They have no interest in the bonds of a country whose people have been betrayed by their Government.
AT THE moment, the official position of the Government is that there is no alternative to paying off everyone who ever lent money to Seanie and his gang.
This is complete nonsense and proves the point that this Government actually has no idea what it is talking about. Once you realise that the Government’s experts know nothing, then the picture becomes very clear. By the way, they also knew nothing in the boom, when they predicted that we would have a soft landing.
The proclivity of the Department of Finance to bluff and build up straw-man arguments is not new. Using fear as a policy to lumber the people with the mistakes of Ireland’s institutions is a recurring theme.
At the moment, the canard that is being used by the elite to bully the people is that if we do the right thing and get those who lent to Seanie and the gang to bear the loss, we will lose credibility and there will be a knock-on effect on the creditworthiness of the rest of our society. How could this possibly stand? How could it be credible to make people who didn’t make the loan, pay for the mistakes of people who did? Please explain.
The reason the elite can’t explain is that they have no answer to it. They are bluffing. But why are they spoofing and making such momentous decisions on the hoof?
The most logical explanation is that they cannot handle the truth — that we are close to bankruptcy and can’t afford the bank bailout. But admitting that we have severe problems involves an adult characteristic called responsibility. In Ireland, the little people are responsible, while our tiny elite of leaders are so craven that they will never admit they messed up. So instead, we get spin.
I am reminded of the last financial crisis of 1992-93. Back then, when it was first suggested that the Irish punt be devalued, the elite in government circles argued that if we devalued we would become an international pariah.
The spin from the establishment was that a devaluation would constitute a massive blow to the credibility of the State. Investors would never forgive us and the interest rate in Ireland would spike upwards to reflect the new currency risk. If we devalued, the bond market would close for Ireland and a recession would follow.
When we eventually devalued, having sworn up to the last that we wouldn’t, what happened? Precisely the opposite to what had been predicted by the elite. Money flowed into the country, interest rates fell, inflation fell, bond yields fell and the economy took off.
The markets took the opposite view to the elite. It transpired that the markets didn’t give a fiddlers about credibility, they just wanted the crisis to be over.
Once we devalued, the markets concluded: “Ireland has had its crisis, the air is cleared, now let’s go and make money there.” And this is what happened. The crisis came and went and then the economy rebounded.
We should tell the creditors of Anglo, including the ECB and our own Central Bank, that the game is up and the people won’t pay. The Irish market would rally and the credit crunch would begin to ease.
That’s how crises end — when someone makes an adult decision and takes responsibility.
The recent actions by Kown to divide Anglo seems to have divided his opponents and opposition too and somewhat this blogg has staggered in the last twenty four hours.Get some air and surface.
any ape can get a congo passport
There’s an excellent article in the Irish Times today on the absolute truth of where we are now at. It’s nothing our host on this forum hasn’t been saying for two years now…
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0909/1224278513715.html?via=mr
Anglo Irish Bunk
Hours after that Bank guarantee Morgan Kelly faced down Brendan Keenan and some Bloxham Cheerleader on Primetime and essentially said what the government is now admitting to be the case. Google- Morgan Kelly Prime Time 20080930 for riveting viewing. The banks have been hoodwinking and lying all along to bring us to this point of no return. It was interesting in the program that Kelly stated that we may be facing a shortfall of up to 20 billion ….. wishful thinking now. Brendan Keenan estimated a bad loan size of 1 percent!
Kelly for Minister of Finance.
The U.S. was nearly brought down by Lehman Brothers. We have our own Lenihan Brothers.
Anglo Irish Bunk
Hours after that Bank guarantee Morgan Kelly faced down Brendan Keenan and some Bloxham Cheerleader on Primetime and essentially said what the government is now admitting to be the case. Google- Morgan Kelly Prime Time 20080930 for riveting viewing. The banks have been hoodwinking and lying all along to bring us to this point of no return. It was interesting in the program that Kelly stated that we may be facing a shortfall of up to 20 billion ….. wishful thinking now. Brendan Keenan estimated a bad loan size of 1 percent!
Kelly for Minister of Finance.
The U.S. was nearly brought down by Lehman Brothers. We have our own Lenihan Brothers.
It is the EU that is calling the shots now FF/GP et all are irrelevent. Anglo owes the ECB 25 billion and they will not allow this debt to go bad. I think the split of Anglo is actually a good idea. But I think it is all relative to property prices in Ireland. I would suggest that there will be further drops in values maybe as much as 40% or more.
David is crying over spilt milk, there are 16 billion of bond holders left within Anglo mainly pension funds which will have to be paid. We have spent the bulk of money to save Anglo, it maybe another 10 billion but the government will not change its course because the EU is instructing the government.
The real problem is that this is now sovereign debt, it won’t be long until the bond markets close on us by charging extremely high rates then we will run to the EU for a bailout.
David
Looking at irisheconomy.ie there doesn’t seem yet to be any borad agreement (if there ever will) on the new plans for Anglo. It might be an attempt to start a wind-down without sparking off a run of depositors and to use deposits to get low-cost Euro funding. It might be an attempt to separate depositors from sub. bondholders, who might find themselves first in the line in the event of liquidation (although they are by now probably only a small proportion of the creditors). However I think Lenihan stated that all debt holders would be guaranteed. It seems to have been done in a hurry following EU negotiations. Karl Whelan says that it’s the worst yet from the govt over the banking crisis in that it shows poor communications and fails to reassure depositors and the morkets (they want even more time to look at Anglo’s books (!)). It seems to me just to be buying time and looking as if they are doing something and hoping something might turn up. Might delay the train crash by a few weeks?
Coldblow.
‘Buying time’.
Bertie Ahern is clear in his mind that there was only one area where he failed in his tenure as Taoiseach. He did not blow enough money on his pet project.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/fionnan-sheahan/fionnan-sheahan-ahern-says-hed-love-to-run-for-aras-but-ff-has-other-ideas-2331042.html
Clearly Dublin needs three sports stadia even more than it needs two. Beer and circuses. With Ahern as the ringmaster in the big tent and Cullen, Dempsey and Calamity in clown costumes following his orders.
The ultimate humiliation would be if FF were so afraid of sticking his name on the ballot paper that his former pals told him to get away from them for danger of him damaging them to the point of giving them a hiding in their local constituencies in the next election. Clearly the performance of Maurice Ahern in last years by-election has left no impression on the ditherer.
Emigrate
I know – people are sick of hearing this – and it is directed at those whose circumstances allow it. The Irish have done it to themselves. The Irish elected the lunatics who are running the asylum (they also run the pharmacy and write the commitment letters). The Irish electorate don’t understand that you can’t have it all. (What other nation would have had a civil war after the Treaty?) In a democracy, the people get the leaders they elect. The Irish did this to themselves.
I can tell you what will happen in Irish politics over a 12 – 15 year timescale. The current FF/G government will be replaced. A new government will come in and try to clean it up. They will last two – three years before the people tire of austerity. Another new government will be elected (probably consisting of a new party in a coalition). They will govern for a short-term, trying to do the right thing. There will be a succession of short governments, none including FF. In 10 – 15 years, the people will have forgotten who brought Ireland to its knees; there will be a vague memory of the good times of the late 90′s and 00′s, and FF will be re-elected. FF are like herpes, they may disappear, but they always come back….
Fergal – before you ridicule the Irish people in the exercise of democracy – bear in mind that the people voted No for Lisbon, and then had to be saturated with Fear, and propaganda to change that.
Also bear in mind the standard of competence available on the ballot paper.
Nobody, apart from party activists really beleives that the options on the ballot paper are any good. For most people it is an attempt at damage limitation.
I can remember an election in 2002 when Micheal Noonan was promising compensation for Eircon Shareholders. Richard Bruton is a shareholder in Anglo – as well as CRH. He might be an economist, but he could do with being a better one than he has been as of late.
I can remember in 2007 the ILP were going to cut taxes, and raise spending at the same time, and expect a balanced budget. When this recession first started, Joan Burton was on RTE outside the Taoiseach’s office trying to figure out what happened and spent ten minutes saying “We are in a recession, because we have no money…that’s why we entered a recession, because we have run out of money….and it is this government’s fault, that we have no money, and now we are in a recession”.
And that is without talking about Ahern’s explanations to how many tribunals or Cowen being too drunk to know what was going on in the banking sector.
Perhaps, the solution is three or four completely new political parties to take over the current positions from the current main parties.
Replace the lot !!!!
@Deco
“Also bear in mind the standard of competence available on the ballot paper.”
Why is the quality of those on the ballot paper so poor? There is a very simple reason. The quality of the Irish electorate dictate who is prepared to run. How can a rational, educated, logical individual with an understanding of what is good for the country (as opposed to the parish / county) take on the likes of Jackie Healy-Rae? “Ah, shure he’s done great things for South Kerry”.
How can a honest individual convince an electorate that honesty and integrity are better for the country as a whole, when the electorate prefers the cute hoor, the nod, the wink, the Flynns, CJH, Bertie….. There’s been a smell around Callely for years.
Protest about the quality all you like, but when the electorate vote for cute hoors and gombeen men, when parish pump politics are at the core of national policy, the quality of those prepared to run will never be up to much. There is only 1 set of people to blame – those who vote on local agendas, local issues and according to blind historical traditions.
Am I ridiculing anyone? No. I’m stating fact. The Irish electorate voted for people they knew were chancers and shysters. They knew it!!!
The defense was “sure the others would have done the same”. If that was the case, then VOTE for them if there’s no difference! That blinkered, irrational, illogical, emotion based thought process exemplifies why emigration is the best option availabe for those not in the inner circle / ‘elite’ / “haves” group.
You are correct.
We have Tammany Hall style politics. Pee Flynn, Rambo, Lord Lucan, are all prime examples of the sort of rogues who get to where they are on the back of the party machines.
We need to punish the party machines. The activists get involved because there are benefits to being involved in politics. Just look at the GP activists/failed councillors who are in state/semi-state jobs.
Regarding Healy-Rae, he is a result of the problem as much as the source. If you have party whip systems for whipping everybody into line, and making entire parties compliant to IBEC-ICTU, then you get rogue elements like Healy-Rae who behave as if the government is just a sham and IBEC and ICTU are making the key decisions. People vote for Healy-Rae because they have already decided that government that is officially concerned with the national interests, is really a facade for government by special interests. Healy-Rae’s behaviour is a threat to the vested interests, because the obvious horsetrading that he commits, is an indication of the not-so-obvious horsetrading going on behind closed doors.
Sounds like the “asset recovery” section of Anglo will be another NAMA; so we will have a NAMA Beag as well as NAMA Mór.
An editorial in the Irish Independent – journal of 2 billionaire tax exiles – calls on us to place our trust in Brian Lenihan, the man who STILL wants to repay BONDHOLDERS and who uses taxpaper funds to overpay finance executives and to overpay for participation in the various moves to recapitalise, and to overpay his friends and relations in the judiciary – all for the sake of MINIMISING COSTS TO THE TAXPAYER!
Assuming a long-term interest rate of 6% compound, then every €1 billion euros left outstanding from the remaining €36 billion of Anglo assets will have cost an additional €1 billion after a period of 12 years.
NAMA beag, NAMA Mór. NAMA More. More NAMA.
Of course the most loaded part of the NAMA acronym is the Asset bit. I mean are these really assets. Hotels that don’t generate a profit. Houses in places that are nowhere, and which are a bad idea in the post-peak-oil age.
I also regard the phrase “Good-bank-bad-bank” as a load of nonsense.
There are no good banks. I mean if anyone can find a good bank well done. They are all bad banks.
As Shakespeare commented over 400 years ago, “A lender, nor a borrower, ever be”.
Latest news is that Norway is buying the government bonds of the Greeks….of course Norway is doing this as a means of shoring up the Euro, and possibly trying to talk up the rest of the money that the Norwegian Sovereign wealth fund has invested in Euro area assets.
Norway is in a bit of a redicament. A lot of it’s assets are denominated in Euros.
Norway has also bought government bonds from Portugal Italy and Spain. None yet from Ireland.
Selling those bonds will be painful…..
David.
Freefall reminded me of a Dennis the Menace prank on the kids, deliberately scrambling the info to stop people / kids / sheeple understanding what is going on.
Well I have to ask myself, how could the FAI be in crisis. I mean this is an organization that has got millions from crooked useless politicians like The Ditherer, and Johnny Cash. And guess what, despite all the money being shovelled into the FAI, much of it shoved to the FAI in a mad rush to give the FAI money before the country became bankrupt. And they still are rumoured to be in trouble.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/0909/fai.html
Maybe the owe money to Anglo Irish Bank, and Anglo can take them over like the Quinn Group. Hilarious. So that we the taxpayer can keep propping up another crony outfit affiliated to the maFFia, and get BS statements, and funny accounting in return.
Apparently the FAI can make less money from their existing new expensive taxpayer funded stadium per match than they could from renting Croke Park. So basically, that it 200 Million pissed into thin air. Great. It is a matter of pride.
Listened to the commentary earlier today, and it would appear that John Delaney is another fine example of what goes for management excellence in this country. The board of the FAI can borrow money but will not tell anybody, even their own members what they are borrowing for, until they are legally obliged to do so. Maybe Bertie Ahern should ignore the pleas of the multitudes who want him to go to the Aras, and instead become an FAI NED. He would fit right in. Maybe we might have all been better off if Ahern joined the politicians in the FAI instead of FF.
Forget the Irish soccer jersey, time we got a national T-shirt. For the area where the name is printed, it can just say PAYE taxpayer. (that should prevent Denis O’Brien from ever fitting one on). Instructions on the back – “Lie to me, Deceive me, Rob me, Tax me, Bullshit to me, “. No space for a number.
Sponsored by Anglo Banglo of course. Made in China, where the FAI jerseys come from – low cost so that the formerly working class in Ireland can ‘benefit’ from globalization. On sale in Arnotts with a hefty mark up(another part of the Anglo Banglo Group), and in the Dublin Airport shopping (where everything is a rip-off), and in the NAMA Hotel Group.
The colour….how about Banana Green ? Green as in clueless and naieve…
Bit of an early morning post here, its just 6.30 and while browsing the papers came across this which might be very useful for anyone with experience in the area of Broadband and in particular the fibre optic side of things right down to the cablers.
Julia Gillard the PM elect has made promises on broadband with the indo’s for support and is proposing to roll out a 43 billion dollar country wide network. There will be big bucks to be made working on this, and from the link below, outside workers will be needed , so throw yere hats in the ring any of ye that can, best of luck, ear to the ground Tull.
p.s. and yes I’ll put the bloody kettle on for tae if yere out Perth way.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/wage-blowout-threat-to-nbn-rollout/story-fn59niix-1225916794348
I’m getting less concerned about the money now (yes, every penny counts but the worst is probably paid out at this stage)
But I’m still frustrated about the lack of institutional reform, political reform and even criminal charges.
I could accept the long years to come of higher taxes if the guilty were charged and the system altered to reflect what we now know doesn’t work.
Has anything really changed?
The “Ruling Class” is just a conspiracy theory. Billionaires are just successful people, banks are just nice places to put your money, and we live in a democracy.
Hmmmmmm.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/04/globaleconomy.economy
Where did it all go wrong?
Here;
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LUP8dYKOe2E/Si1CPWiF2EI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/FJTlKidmZJY/s1600-h/grand-1024×768.jpg
Very good reply which is sadly very true, unfortunately for the ordinary tax payer .On the otherhand for the privileged few its still grand and they can keep going because someone else will pay for the clean up. What a county we live in!
This is good stuff.
One of the lads over on The Irish Economy got hold of a DOF FAQ doc relating to the Anglo split;
Hope he doesn’t mind my posting it here for FOI reasons, since we the taxpayers who own Anglo haven’t been issued this;
Some clarification from the Dept of Finance and Anglo
A couple of points:
Funding Bank
1. The Funding bank will only hold Deposits – all other liabilities will move to the Asset recovery bank.
2. The Funding bank will provide funding to the Asset Recovery Bank which will pay a market rate
3. NAMA bonds will sit on the asset side of the Funding Bank
Asset Recovery Bank
1. All existing (post NAMA) loans will move to the Asset Recovery bank which will be wound down/ sold over time.
2. These loans will be funded by all bond holders as well as loans form the Funding Bank.
Other
* Still very unclear as to how much capital the government will have to put into these entities.
* Both banks maintain licenses which allow them to fund in wholesale markets, hold bonds, promissory notes ,etc. The Fuhnding Bank therefore will not be a draw on the exchequer.
* Minister is holding a briefing at the moment so maybe further clarity post that.
Following Q&A sheet provided by DOF (although some lack of clarity here)
Q 2. Does this proposal represent a Wind up of the bank?
The bank is not being wound up. The Government has decided to adopt a variation of the bank’s split plan as the preferred option to the restructuring of Anglo Irish Bank.
Subject to EU approval and other regulatory consents Anglo Irish Bank will be split into two distinct entities.
· An Asset Recovery bank
· A Funding bank
As set out in the Minister’s Statement the Asset Recovery bank will be mandated to manage the remaining non NAMA loan book to maxise the return to the taxpayer. It will be a regulated bank. The Funding bank will have a narrow focus as specialist deposit / savings bank Both entities will remain regulated licensed entities.
Q 3. Why is the Government adopting this new policy
The decision today does not represent a change in policy. The Government’s objective has always been to find the least cost solution to the difficulties at Anglo Irish Bank and to protect the interests of the Irish taxpayer and the country generally. The approach adapted today represents the culmination of work and analysis of problems at Anglo and the development of a sustainable solution which removes uncertainty from the situation. The Government is satisfied that proposed approach meets these objectives and represents the best way forward.
It is important to be clear from the outset that the Government did not endorse the plan submitted by the bank to the EU Commission at the end of May. At the time the plan was submitted the Minister asked the various responsible State agencies – the NTMA, the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank, as well as his own Department, to assess the plan and provide their views to the Commission. This assessment of the bank’s plan has now been concluded , and the national position has been communicated to the European Commission.
While the Minister acknowledges that the bank’s management and the Board have done their best to structure a credible proposal in relation to the bank’s future nonetheless important developments in the international financial environment since the bank’s plan was submitted for European Commission approval have impacted adversely on the bank’s plan.
The European Commission has also indicated doubt on the acceptability of the bank’s plan from a State aid perspective.
Q. 4 Why did the Government not adapt this policy earlier for example in May when the plan was submitted by the Bank to the Commission.
It was not clear in May what the optimum approach for Anglo was. At the time essential information such as the scale of the NAMA haircut on the transfer assets and the extent of impairment on the non NAMA loan book was not available. At that time Anglo submitted their plan to the European Commission and the Minister asked the various responsible State agencies – the NTMA, the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank, as well as his own Department, to assess the plan in consultation with the Commission.
That assessment has now being carried out. In the course of that assessment the NAMA haircut was clarified and a detailed analysis of the non NAMA loan book has been completed. Further there have also been important developments in the international financial environment since the bank’s plan was submitted for EU Commission approval.
In the light of the advice received from his advisors, and of the changing background in the markets, the Minister has concluded that the plan submitted by the bank does not meet the Government’s objectives for a viable and long-term sustainable solution to the restructuring of the bank aligned with ensuring the continued stability of the Irish banking system overall and this policy has been adopted.
Q.5 What will the final figures for the capital cost?
As indicated the Central Bank will determine the level of capital required in these institutions to meet regulatory standards. The Bank is undertaking this work and will announce their findings in by early October.
Q.6 How will the split be funded – you said in the past it would give a funding need of €30bn to wind it down?
It is anticipated that the Asset Recovery bank will be funded by the Funding bank. Funding will be provided by the Funding Bank from normal sources. As the Recovery Bank reduces in size its funding requirements will also reduce.
Q.7 What did the EU Commission say?
The Minster for Finance met Commissioner Almunia last Monday to discuss the issue. . A formal detailed plan is being prepared for submission to the Commission for approval and implementation in 2011.
Q.8 What is the position of Bond Holders?
There is no change in the position as a result of the announcement today.
Q.9 Why can subordinated bondholders not absorb some of the losses at the bank?
Anglo has already generated €1.6bn in profit through a liability management exercise on certain of the bank’s subordinated bonds whereby the bank bought back subordinated debt at an average level of 32 cent in the euro, which crystallised significant losses for subordinated bondholders and contributed to Anglo’s capital.
The Government will continue to examine appropriate burden sharing arrangements in the detailed plan and in consultation with the European Commission.
Q.10 Why not put all the bad loans in NAMA?
As matters stand Regulations currently in force restricts the transfer of eligible bank assets to loans secured on development land and property under development with a minimum threshold of €5 million in the case of Anglo. While the Regulations could be changed it appears more appropriate to retain the non NAMA assets in the Recovery Bank. To transfer these assets to NAMA would require a review of the scope of NAMA, the structures and the approach to take account of a wide range of diverse assets. . It would also require EU approval to put the entire loan book into NAMA which could delay matters further. NAMA is also a very sizable institution and increasing its size in the context of the economy would not be appropriate. At this point it appears the most appropriate solution to retain the residual loan book in a Recovery bank.
Q.11 How have such large losses been sustained by Anglo?
Anglo’s lending model was primarily focused on lending for land and property development and investment, with such lending typically having been secured on property assets.
With the significant decline in the property market in all of the bank’s geographies, the collateral behind the bank’s loan assets has deteriorated in value. While the bank is continuing to pursue all loans to the full extent, through the courts where necessary, the decline in the likely realisable value of the loans based on the projected loan cash flows and the value of the collateral available to support the loans requires the bank to write down the value of these loan assets on its book.
Such asset write-downs create losses, which in turn generates the capital requirement for the bank which is being met by way of the Promissory Note. While the realisation of losses is clearly very painful, it represents a central part of the process of managing Anglo beyond the difficulties which saw the institution taken into State ownership.
Q 12 Is my money guaranteed at Anglo Irish Bank?
Yes as the statement makes clear there is no change in existing guarantees. Anglo Irish Bank continues to be covered by the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Scheme which guarantees Anglo deposits and other liabilities until 30 September 2010.
Anglo also joined the Eligible Liabilities Guarantee (ELG) Scheme which guarantees deposits and other debt securities with maturities that do not exceed five years, incurred by participating institution from the date it joins ELG Scheme up to end-September 2010.
Deposits with Anglo Irish Bank up to €100,000 are covered under the Deposit Protection Scheme with no time limit on maturity.
The revised proposal does not alter the protection already given under guarantee schemes and depositors money is protected. No action is required on their behalf.
From no. 3:
“It is important to be clear from the outset that the Government did not endorse the plan… ” So why would Anglo be submitting a plan that the Govt (its owners) had not agreed?
K. Whelen slated the poor communications involved – it was hours before D/Finance posted these FAQs on their website, although the likes of Davy Stockbrokers got them earlier (the source of the doc. on the irisheconomy website).
To be honest I find it hard enough to follow that discussoin and I get the impression that many ecnomists don’t find it too clear either. In fact, it doesn’t appear that anyone really knows… Bit like listening in on a discussion between Stephen Hawking and his mates on string theory. All way over the head of the average voter in the polling station I’m sure.
Here’s a quote from Tull’s namesake there:
“We are still facing a loss of 30bn plus in total offset by perhaps 2-4 bn from subbies and seniors. To achieve more than that involves defaulting on state guaranteed debt (the Lucey soluation) or on obligations to the ECB/CBI (the Mc Williams solution). So in essence, this proposal does not move the situaion on a whole lot.”
Is that David’s proposal? I’m not sure how it works. I supose any default on Anglo is to a large extent stuffing EU banks but that’s not hte same as the ECB. And the Central Bank has advanced billions to Anglo. Anyone like to try to explain?
Or to bring it down to my level, on the reasonable assumption that the game plan is to alow the rich “”"”"”"”s save their assets, how does this happen?
I thought what Brian Lucey was proposing, although I think he’s since changed his mind, (wind down Anglo with sub. and senior bondholders taking the losses) was what David was proposing.
(1)
“The European Commission has also indicated doubt on the acceptability of the bank’s plan from a State aid perspective.”
Translates =
Duh, dis is been copped by de feckers in Brussels but we’ll bluff it out for a piece
(2)
“While the Minister acknowledges that the bank’s management and the Board have done their best to structure a credible proposal in relation to the bank’s future nonetheless important developments in the international financial environment since the bank’s plan was submitted for European Commission approval have impacted adversely on the bank’s plan.”
Translates =
Duh, we fucked up(apologies for the coarse language)
(3)
“Q.8 What is the position of Bond Holders?
There is no change in the position as a result of the announcement today.”
Translates =
Once we cover our arses, ye’re fucked(apologies for the coarse language)
(4)
“NAMA is also a very sizable institution and increasing its size in the context of the economy would not be appropriate.”
Translates =
We’re going to flog off as much shit as we can before there’s a real audit from the Euro boys.
(5)
“The Government will continue to examine appropriate burden sharing arrangements in the detailed plan and in consultation with the European Commission.”
Translates =
Some scrote will pay for this but it ain’t going to be me or mine
6.
“Such asset write-downs create losses, which in turn generates the capital requirement for the bank which is being met by way of the Promissory Note.”
Translates =
We’ll invent anyway we can to cover our arses
7.
“The revised proposal does not alter the protection already given under guarantee schemes and depositors money is protected. No action is required on their behalf.”
Translates =
Hope the regatta goes well at Chatham David. Vilamoura was fab. Wish you were here. Best. The Old Team.
F
I read somewhere that Anglos deposits of depositors covered by the 100,000 gaurantee amounts to 7.2 billion. The figures from the goverment and Anglo are confusing. Brian Cowen 70bn to close, Anglo Irish 45bn to close, Brian Lenihan – the bulk of the money in the bank is from depositors but can’t say. Note he said ‘depositors in general’ not ‘depositors up to 100,000′ or ‘depositors covered by the gaurantee’. Even if 7.2 billion is not correct closing the bank immediatly, paying out the gaurantee and having the creditors fight over the un-performing loans is the most just solution. This is what happens in the States. Interestingly in the States the Federal Reserve is reponsible for paying back the depositors. So it would be nice if the ECB paid the 7.2 Billion to the Anglo depositors. They are Europes equivalent of the Fed and are the ones who have the licence to print money. The europeans would have to accept a bankruptcy of Anglo we don’t have to ask their permission as we are being led to believe. I would like to know the exact figure for deposits up 100,000 in Anglo and what exactly is covered by the gaurantee. If the gaurantee covers everything then we should change it when it lapses to just covering 100,000 depositors and then declare Anglo Bankrupt.
What if the people who have money on deposit via one corporate concern, are the same people who have bad loans via another company ?
By this I mean, why do developers often have 70 different companies to do the same thing ?
Is this a risk loading to others mechanism. Irish Company Law is quite liberal in allowing people to divert risk and secure profits by seperating them…..
” Catch 22 ”
http://baselinescenario.com/2010/09/02/irish-worries-for-the-global-economy/
“Eurozone members that break the region’s rules on public finances should be excluded temporarily from Europe’s political decision-making, ,JC Trichet. the president of the European Central Bank has proposed.”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/13730da2-bc31-11df-8c02-00144feab49a.html
Adieu and hasta luego to Ireland’s economic sovereignty unless we get our act together.
I’m not sure Malcolm if “Economic Sovereignty” means all that much to the average worker in Ireland as History would suggest that they have had very little influence on the direction the Economy has taken ,particularly of late. To my mind Economic Sovereignty seems to be more important to the Elites of Society, as it more often than not affects their sphere of control.
I think its falls into the same category as the Irish being asked to fight to reclaim “their own land” from the British and it turned out as usual with the workers owning none of the land after the dust had settled.
I’m sure we will hear some rallying calls from the usual sources as “green jerseys” and “scoundrels” seem to be inseparable of late.
Sorry for double post, just saw your’s too late.
2010 European Year for Combating Poverty and Social Exclusion
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/product_details/publication?p_product_code=KE-AG-10-001
http://www.2010againstpoverty.eu/?langid=en
I find it remarkable in this context to hear about Mr. Trichet’s, he does not seem to wear a hat so he can not take his hat unfortunately, to drive forward the idea to have, in my description, economically weaker countries to be temporarily excluded from voting rights in the EU here:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/13730da2-bc31-11df-8c02-00144feab49a.html
So in his mind set, which is in line with franko-german sentiments, it is all right to have stronger exporting countries dominate policy decisions and leave weaker countries penalised by exclusion from voting procedures.
Can someone please send this man a hat?
Best,
Georg
Trichet completes stress testing bondholder banks with false benchmarking that hides European bondholder bank exposure to the PIIGS banks. As a result, markets preserve the euro at inflated currency valuations against the dollar. Our debt is maximised on the basis Trichet’s coverup means neither quantitive easing that might inflate away some Irish debt in introduced for the euro; nor specific intervention to ease the cost to Irish taxpayers is countenanced, depositors/bondholders/former executive staff of Anglo get to feast on Irish taxpayers! Europe cuts the rope tied to Ireland Inc!
Spades & Rocks
I have found the national treasure map and rocks ,near a faery fort recently distroyed in co . limerick ,to seek our ‘pot of gold’ .This is what it reveals :
1 First a rock in the semi-circle design of the existing remaining circle of Dun Aengus at side of cliff ; and
2 Another rock of Newsgrange in a circular design ; and
3 A rock of St. Bridgets Cross that is both circular with an imposing cross .
All three are designed to place together.
The steps are :
a) hold the semi circular rock and place on it the newsgrange rock ; and
b) then place the st. bridgets rock over both .
What happens is the light energy rises inside them emmiting rainbow colours and the pin center of the st bridgets cross emmits a red light.
Instructions follow are :
Dig up in the center of the Newsgrange site and you will find the Ark of the Covenant previously brought there by Princess Tea in Babylon at the time she married Erin ..When it is removed sell it to the Head Fund Managers ( jewish ) at a Great Profit .
….and more rock-et science :
lets look at the st bridget circle cross and you will notice that the heavier north south line dividing is bigger than the east west divide .
on a stand alone the seperate ‘halves’on the north -south divide is what Kown has chosen as ‘the recovery side’ and the ‘ bad loan side’.
on a blind angle each of those halves is further sub divided by the east west dividing line and this is where it become tricky ….what is in each of those quarters now ….in other words there are further sub divisions to be made in each of ‘the recovery side’ and ‘the bad loan side’…and we have no answers to that yet and we should know.
Notice another front opening up predicted by lots of us on the ill fated announcement of NAMA many moons ago: Today we hear NAMA are hiring legal teams in preparation for court battles numbering at the moment up to 12 developers.
Taxpayers get to view the public spectacle of the squandering of their money on a cohort of legal teams deploying nonsense ad infinitum arguments on valuations with possibly inevitable write downs of legal costs incurred by the already bankrupt.
All paid for by the taxpayer.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0910/1224278570948.html
@Georg thx for that! That’s a fascinating case that should be watched closely. Notice the use of stooges “The State agency has filed affidavits from Trinity College economists Philip Lane and Dermot McAleese in support of its defence in the case”
That case gets into the nitty gritty of the erosion of democratic rights versus the incursion on same in the creeping socialist bankocracy of Ireland Inc. Looking at Ireland Inc from abroad, would you like to risk setting up here with the NAMA sword of Democles.
Basically the so-called ‘good loan book’ is being contaminated by these gombeens as they spread toxic contagion everywhere! Is there no protection from our constitution?
Put that one into the Duck Soup being served up to the rest of us! http://bit.ly/hSDX1
Daid McW gets mentioned in this story.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-08/saving-ireland-becomes-lenihan-s-latin-lesson-in-fight-for-life.html
Concerning a lot of what you are told, the old adage rings true….
“Trust have what you see, and absolutely none of what you are told….. ”
Britain has still not cleaned up any of the mess from the Blair/Brown years. Stepping back from the precipice is not equivalent to reducing Britain debt mountain. This is a problem for us because of our trade with Britain, and the impact of the Sterling exchange rate on competitiveness. NAMA might want to hurry up and flogg any UK sterling denominated assets as quickly as possible and forget all this “LTEV” nonsense.
The policies in this country are no longer made on behalf of the people forming the Irish Nation, the consumers and taxpayers, but on behalf of special interest groups that seek to bleed out the public to secure their gambling bets.
This government has no right to continue forcing policies onto this Nation. While it may be entitled by Law to do so, it has no legitimacy left on moral grounds, not a sausage.
The forced secrecy about Anglo Irish Bank, no public inquiry into the banking crisis in general, arrangements behind closed doors, these fact and more are not only indicators of a fearful and captured government, they are clear evidence.
Peter Mathews rightly pointed out that both AIB and BOI follow the same strategy of drip feeding this Nation with the reality of their accounts, demanding ever higher bailouts as a result, as clearly was the case in the past two years.
Further discussions with the stakeholder of power are useless, they will lead to the same results that we see since more than two years now. They need to be deprived of their powers, until that happens, nothing will change!
Best
Georg
5% PSO Levy on October electricity Bill
I was trying to find out the legal implications on my thought to deduct 2,5% from my next electricity bill. Under no circumstances i support the idiotic peat-> electricity production with a forced upon levy.
I wanted to find out whether they can cut me off from the grid on these grounds, and was pointed to:
http://www.consumerassociation.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=2
as they would know about the legal implications. Since three days I am calling and no one answers the phone.
At some point the question needs to be asked…
what are the ordinary people of Ireland getting from the ESB in place of a 5% increase in the price of electricity ?
Nothing. But it will help bailout Anglo debtholders, so it is all a good cause….our ‘credibility’ is on the line…the Anglo debtholders might say bad things about us.
Personally, I reckon we should do it properly, tell the to pluck off and give them nothing…..I mean cut out the bullshit….because the bullshot that is going on is the real source of our ‘credibility’ problem…..
having an obese person who is rumoured to be on the bottle as Minister for Health is also a credibility issue but there are no moves to fix that.
Having a Minister for Finance who did not have a bank account, and who was not paying his taxes properly in the 1990s is another credibility issue…..but that is also worth tolerating….
Let’s see ‘credibility’ vs ‘hospitals to remain open’.
The answer is fairly apparent really.
It’s getting shocking bad when The Deco has to speak the obvious. It’s peculiar that, being ignored 2 years ago as an alarmist, now my opinion is held in regard by people who know it’s all wrong but can’t articulate the issues.
I posed the question tonight as to whether AIB was illiquid or insolvent to a man who had applied for a reasonable loan and had been refused.
His answer;
Them shower of C**ts are broke.
Simple really.
What part of that don’t the Dublin Brigade get?
Hello Kayak. Just read your post and it’s good to see another outsider asking after us as we go through this choppy period. This is a great economics blog and it is good that you recognise it as a place where you don’t need an economics degree to learn about what is happening to the Irish economy. On here it is more like “economics for everyman” and here you will find many people who are not afraid to say what needs saying about the state we are now in. Some of us are outsiders looking on in amazement at how a people can allow an incompetent and arrogant government to destroy a nation through their ill advised adoration of power and raw free market capitalism
Suffer is a word I fail to recognise and no matter what they do they will never break my spirit. They might break their mothers hearts but they will never break mine. The people of Pakistan are in what I would call a state of suffering but in Ireland all we have is a problem with pride. It is true that pride comes before a fall and it is pride (and fear) which is preventing people from waking up to reality. The Irish are far from the world beaters they were led to believe they were and that few brief years in the sunshine made them forget that the world does not owe them a living. Now that the sunstroke has worn off they realise they don’t have much to trade with and that the all the bluster about becoming an advanced knowledge based economy (whatever that is) has vanished like in a plume of smoke. They are also realising that only leaves grow on trees
What is the concept of the Irish Lifestyle?
I have never heard of this term personally. I can only speak for myself and would say to you that my lifestyle is very basic and I have always believed in avoiding debt and owning too many material posessions. You enter this life with nowt and you leave it with nowt so what is the point? Far better to travel light and enjoy the ride because we can all still enjoy living regardless of the state of the economy. I know that for a while chocolate fountains were in vogue as a method of impressing dinner guests and that some kids were getting over a grand in cash for their holy communion. In 1972 I think I got about ten bob for mine but then again I came from a place where you would get a belt on the lug for turning your nose up at your dinner
Forget the Irish media. They are a disgrace and have no more freedom to speak the truth than do journalists in other authoritarian states. You can ask all the hard questions you like until you are blue in the face but you will never get a straight answer from an Irish politician. If you want to see how this should be done then check out Jeremy Paxman on BBC Newsnight. Personally I would offer him all the money he wanted to come and sort these liars out. Maybe the only way this country will ever be straightened out is if someone else takes over and does it for them
There are those who are still in denial. The problem is that the truth is too hard for most people to take hence Brian Lenihan thinking it was funny that the head man in the European Central bank could not contact him by telephone the day after the crisis emerged. “Ah sure I was down at the races with me pals”. Chuckle chuckle. Slap! They are laughing at us and it is beyond insulting. By doing so he was playing to the gallery because he knows that many Irish people would prefer to just laugh than get angry. They are very easily controlled and history tells us so. It may be some form of genetic memory inherited from 800 years of being other people’s whipping boys. So all is not hunky dory at all when you look at the Irish psyche because that is where most of the answers are to be found
The opposition refuses to protest and they tell us to get our own back via the ballot box. The ballot box, that paragon of democracy that was so favoured by Mr Mugabe not so long ago. In Ireland the ballot box means hee haw because it is still a tribal society that is politically stuck in the 1920s and incapable of growing up. We don’t need sympathy regarding the English. We need to move on. 1916 and all that is in the past and next time the job needs doing properly but through peaceful means and by men much more capable of getting it right
I sometimes think that the only way this country will ever change is if the elites are physically removed from office. There are people who would call such action shit stirring and even if they took the shirts from our backs they would tell is to stay chipper because we still had our Y-fronts. You can’t win. In any society it is easier to just keep quiet and be a moral coward rather than stand up and be counted. In one hundred years time students of history will be wondering why we were so feckless providing that by that time the human race has not been programmed out of it’s capacity for critical thinking
The Irish blogs are where you will most likely find dissenting voices who are seeking the truth. In Ireland truth is a concept that has little meaning. I suspect that if the Irish people knew the whole shocking truth that they would just make jokes about it
If anyone in Ireland has a sense of entitlement look first at the politicians, the professions, useless well paid media lackeys, intellectually dishonest academics and senior civil servants. Unemployed people have been left to the mercy of rabid right wing bullies and their vile propaganda. It is a myth that people on the dole are useless, unemployable, feckless, work shy and whatever. We don’t all have the capacity to sell our souls and become debt slaves whereby we could end up becoming one of the one in ten who are victims of workplace bullying and bad employers whom we could probably run rings around. By kicking the unemployed some people are missing the real target. By miles
Ubuntu is an Africa concept and a nice one in theory but now that the Blacks have the power it is the Coloureds who are the new whipping boys. Some things never change. I prefer Fedora myself because as Mark Shuttleworth himself said “ubuntu is not a democracy”
Material possessions – what a load of rubbish. Who needs all the crap the try to peddle you through their incessant and idiotic advertising campaigns? Freedom comes from having less of that nonsense. Try telling that to the your average man in the street though, they love all their luxuries…
I sometimes think that the only way this country will ever change is if the elites are physically removed from office. There are people who would call such action shit stirring and even if they took the shirts from our backs they would tell is to stay chipper because we still had our Y-fronts. You can’t win. In any society it is easier to just keep quiet and be a moral coward rather than stand up and be counted. In one hundred years time students of history will be wondering why we were so feckless providing that by that time the human race has not been programmed out of it’s capacity for critical thinking
+1
http://bit.ly/14kQA
“In the movie, tiny Freedonia (“Land of the Spree, and the Home of the Knave”) is suffering from severe financial problems, and government leaders request a loan from wealthy widow Mrs. Teasdale to keep things afloat. The widow agrees on the condition that Rufus T. Firefly, played by Groucho Marx, take control and run the country.”
Christine Lagarde Minister of Economy in France
http://bit.ly/qCh4c
Perhaps we should ask her for a loan in return for coming in and running this country for a few years!
“Reform, Regulaton, Stimulate
Rules, transparency”
Is that from Wiki? I looked it up hslf an hour ago and I was wondering who Rufus T. Firefly was in our situation (the banks?) and who the Margaret Dumont character was (taxpayer?). My mind is addled at the moment. Wouldn’t mind seeing that film again to unwind. Oh, don’t get me started on RTE again!
Perhaps a cinema might accommodate us for a showing of ‘Duck Soup’. Some standup comedy with David’s contacts? He might leaven the evening with some cases of leffe beer and Falafel food. We could mime propaganda from Pravda RTE ….with Freefall in the background, play poker and moonopoly. Have a good weekend!
Coming to a nation state near you – ‘First’ Worldism!
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/9/10/arianna_huffington_on__third_world
Another wait for Long Term economic value that has not worked out….
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/we-got-it-wrong-in-cuba-says-castro-2332773.html
Maybe in 40 years time Cowen will admit that NAMA was a load of nonsense also…..
We have a visionary amongst us.
On RTE/PRAVDA news last evening she spoke of her job offer from the Russians, if only she would take it up……thought it ‘slightly’ insensitive given our domestic situation, but must be hard to see from lofty heights.
Maybe it is time to light candles, join hands and think of our multiple incomes and pensions courtesy of the amazing taxpayer, who picks up the tab for everything.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0910/russia_mcaleese.html
Of course the Russians would never have signed deals with Irish companies, regardless of what the deal was…..if McUseless and the politicians stayed at home.
Well, at least we know that neither Noel Dempsey nor Johnny Cash were using the government jet while this was in progress.
Ummmm…..ders two Government jets……..Check it out
Thta would be twice as wasteful as one…
If the government is still a shareholder in Aer Lingus, then they should put their asses where their mouth is so to speak….and travel Aer Lingus…..McCreevy uses Ryanair.
NAMA
Mr McDonagh said the country was currently “in the middle of the storm”, but the Irish scheme would ensure the losses accumulated by Irish banks were recognised more quickly than in other countries offering similar scheme and would provide liquidity to allow the banks to recommence lending.
Right Mr. Mc Donagh!
….the level of stupidity displayed in this statement is beoynd comprehension!…
commenting about Ireland being more honest than other countries with regards to the banks telling the truth about their losses is mere speculation.
This is because the Irish banks are not telling the truth. And the Spanish banks (main sore thumb sticking out) are not telling the truth. The Greek banks are fudging the issue with state assistance also. In fact even in Germany there are banks that are fudging, though, presumably the German authorities are stricter on misdemeanours than in the PIGS.
Nobody can claim that Mr. McDonagh is correct. And Nobody can tell that he is incorrect. So, we get this PR stunt stuff instead.
From my experience of Irish banking, telling the truth is never the first consideration when dealing with the general public. In fact it is a world loaded with cronyism, and cliqueism.
So Santander, who are up to their necks in British debt, buy a Polish bank from an Irish bank who are up to their knees in debt.
The Irish bank gains 3.1 bn as a result thus reducing their dependency on the Irish Government Tit but the share price stays flat.
Notwithstanding an absence of approval from Trichet/Greenspan.
D’ye see, the problem with having old men in charge is that firstly they have old ideas and secondly, they’ve got shag all to lose, with one foot in the grave.
We need young blood and fast.
http://bit.ly/dcyMqs
Inexperience of youth may not be the panacea you hope it is. Experience, knowledge, talent, age old qualities of wisdom, integrity, might be a better bet. Where do you see them?
Else ye may end up like poor David Drumm above, age late thirties?. And hey no extradition warrants against his loan of €8 ml
David Drumm Chief Executive is he in Cape Cod on a retainer to keep his mouth shut and stay away?
‘Declaring a homestead’ €4.6 million?????????
The banks are doing everything they can to hang on to deposits, as they have been for 2 years now. Staff are clearly under orders to discourage significant withdrawals. I was transferring some savings from AIB to Rabo at lunchtime and, maybe it was just me, but staff seemed to be making it deliberately difficult? Who are RAbo? (are you serious, it’s one of the few solvent banks around) Where are they based? (told you that last week) Would a draft be possible? (that’s what you suggested last week) And if you ask different staff the same question (as one does, just out of curiosity) you always get a different answer.
I remember withdrawing my SSIA savings from Nationwide in 2008. It wasn’t much over the 20k guarant limit but all the asme… Anyway, I put it into Postbank (now winding up) and 2 days later the Joe Duffy show sparked a mini-run. As we all know the guarantee was introduced. Which was just as well as the Post Office staff made a mess of my application (they hadn’t asked me for original passport or whatever at the time) so the money wouldn’t have transferred anyway.
I caught Grumpy Old Men (not on RTE) last week and they have obviously been borrowing my material. So for the weekend it’s F*** the b*nkers, F*** the politicians and it’s Up Yours Delors!
Here’s the verse that’s going through my mind today, courtesy of Lennon et al, for no reason, like:
BUt when you talk about destruct-io-o-o-on
Don’t you know that you can count me out (in)
Don’t you know it’s gonna be alright (shoo be doo)
Al-ri-ght (shoo be doo)
It’s gonna be alright…
AIB are in a strange position. Rampant rumours of job losses up ahead going around inside the organization. Like the rest of Irish banking, too many staff, and not enough of a transaction volume. It is a case of circle the wagons. They are trying to hold everything off for as long as possible.
AIB and BoI have very strict policies with regard to hiring. Basically, you need to be an insider, before you get inside the organization. “Do you know anybody who is working for the bank ? ” Nudge, nudge, wink, wink….This is a pre-emptive strategy to prevent the sort of people getting in, who would tell stuff to Shane Ross. Obedience is virtue number one.
Currently, it takes longer to get a bank draft through to the destination, than it used to take to process a cheque, with respect to the Irish banking system. It used to take 2 days. I have bee told that currently it takes 5 days plus.
You will know after a few days.
The “who are Rabo” line is an attempt to convey the impression that nobody else is moving money to Rabo. It is an attempt to maintain the pretence….
Bí Cúramach a mhic. Bhí do ceo go h-iontach. Ná bí béalscaoilte. An dtuigeann tú??
A Chara,
F
Bheola scaoilte a long doirteal. Ní raibh aon málaí gnáthchomhalta den prátaí síos anseo in Perth.lOL
Heh Heh.
Na bí ciúinach ar son na málaí gnáthchomhalta den prátaí anseo in Eirinn! Bi i do thost agus bí ciontach?
Thuigim anois. ‘go mo leithsceal…
The problem with the current crop of politicians, in Ireland and around the world, is they have no idea what the real cost of their policies is. They have no incentive to consider the average taxpayer except at election time (when they promise the moon).
It’s not hard to see why, they have a unlimited credit card
with the tab paid by millions of strangers i.e. the taxpayer. The only thing that really concerns them is finding clever ways to get more mugs to pay the tab (through more taxes).
There is only one real way to fix this problem. We have to tie politicians salaries to their performance. One way is to link their wage to the national average income. If their wage was some multiple, maybe twice, of the national average
it would make them consider the average Joe in all their policies. If their policies hurt and bring down the average income then they will be hurt too.
Of course, this will not help if their policies have a negative effect after they have retired, so we need to update their pension rate as the national average changes.
We would have to be sure we factor in “unemployed income” so they would have an incentive for full employment too.
Hi Alf. I mentioned something similar recently, based on the median wage, which should be a little bit lower than the average. Ggod enough for *********s!
I see that Germany is setting up an extra 40 billion guarantee for Hypo Real Estate. I am sure that Ireland will be kept on life support in similar ways for many years to come.
And the Irish people will sit there and take it. The comment by “Pauline” to the article on this link describes perfectly what is wrong with Ireland. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0910/1224278569011.html
Klaus Regling named head of EU bailout fund
In May 2010 the Regling/Watson preliminary report was published here: http://www.bankinginquiry.gov.ie/Preliminary%20Report%20into%20Ireland's%20Banking%20Crisis%2031%20May%202010.pdf
Regling now was asked to head the 440 billion EU fund here:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,716108,00.html
The Regling/Watson report highlighted very serious breaches in corporate government, and a clear lack of inter agency confrontational culture.
The latter is something I am wondering about in the light of the latest Anglo decisions, again, we saw a handful of people making arrangements behind closed doors, and I have doubts that the consultation process involved a lot of confrontational opinions.
The consultancy culture in this country seems to be rather a case of ‘Tell me what I want to hear!’ process. For good reasons Regling pointed out this complete lack confrontational culture.
The handful of advisors that have different views, appear to be called in for the same reasons, like International Multis that are forced to advertise a certain type of job, ask for CV’s and invite people for interviews, while it has already been decided who get’s the job internally.
I experienced this for example at Oracle, a software company, a few ears ago and for the Heck of it, I played the game. Mea culpa mea culpa.
The Job description was for a Country MD position and because after many years in the industry and a extensive network of people, my internal Oracle sources told me that it is pretty clear who will get the job, the chap selected was known to me personally, and I called him, and unofficially he confirmed it.
However, I still got the invitation to the Interview, not once, three times! So they arranged tickets for me three times, brought me to HQ on these occasions and my Interview partners went from a normal HR person, to the Big Guru and HR Director in the process. I was curious to see how far they would go with it, and on the last meeting I dropped the bombshell, calling this entire scenario a Helluva lot of waste of resources, totally disrespectful towards any applicants and just a plain ridiculous and superfluous scam, and I left the last Interview with the HR Director sitting there with an open mouth, looking rather foolish and unable to say a word.
I guess, somethings never change….
Best
Georg
P.S. Remains the question, who will continue the work on this report and when will this be published?
I take it for granted that Klaus Regling has his hands full now with other tasks.
Georg.
This type of story is more frequent that most people expect. and there is absolutely no public discourse about it – it would offend our advertising sponsors, and reduce consumer spending. And in a debt leveraged economy, consumer spending is the thread that holds the whole disfunctional mess together a lot of the time.
HR units function like internal employment law specialists. The entire thing is a facade for creating a legally compliant version as a cover for circumspect, immoral, wasteful behaviour.
I do recall two interviewing processes in the mid-90s. One for a large bank currently getting a lot of state assistance, where I passed through the objective test phases, got a final interview, and was asked ‘do you kow anybody who works in the bank ?’ wherein I was treated an outsider. And another was for a staff officer position for a local authority – I was asked – do you know anybody on the council – ‘I replied no, but I am eager do a good job’. The interviewers basically then started giving me career guidance on how to apply for the position again in other local auhtorities. They asked me, because they wanted to know if their behaviour in filling the position would be reprimanded by somebody senior. Unlike you I did not respond angrily. I simply accumulated it all in and then told everybody afterwards so that people would know how widespread nepotism and cronyism are in Ireland.
But your manner in handling the response was hilarious.
On hindsight, I wish I would have had an interest in photography already, shooting the sheepish faces of the HR Director and VP Global when I stood up and ended the interview would have provided me with some very nice memories. -Grins!-
[...] We don't have an economic policy, it's all just a big bluff … The most logical explanation is that they cannot handle the truth — that we are close to bankruptcy and can't afford the bank bailout. But admitting that we have severe problems involves an adult characteristic called responsibility. progressive Ireland, its the Ireland that sufficed for your elders with all its faults, is what you're gonna get, and you should be lucky to have a roof over your head and hot food in your belly and shoes on your feet to go to school in. [...]
Check this out by Karl Whelan on ANGLOS mutation into two halves.
FAQ leaked document says,
It is anticipated that the Asset Recovery bank will be funded by the Funding bank. Funding will be provided by the Funding Bank from normal sources. As the Recovery Bank reduces in size its funding requirements will also reduce.
Karl says,
In other words, if you have a deposit with Funding Bank, that bank’s assets are loans to the Asset Recovery bank, which (word has it) is insolvent. A statement that the deposits were being transferred to, for instance, Irish Life and Permanent (backed by NAMA bonds or other Anglo financial assets) might have been reassuring to depositers. Today’s messages to depositors were mixed and not reassuring.
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/09/08/anglo-announcement-a-multiple-systems-failure/#comments
DECO posted above …….
‘What if the people who have money on deposit via one corporate concern, are the same people who have bad loans via another company ?
By this I mean, why do developers often have 70 different companies to do the same thing ?
Is this a risk loading to others mechanism. Irish Company Law is quite liberal in allowing people to divert risk and secure profits by seperating them…..’
and i’ve been thinking the following…….
What if the deposits in ANglo are the monies from the loans taking out from the same shower of plunderers creaming and kerchining the rigged econ system.
Wills, its a company law scam of monumental assistance to corrupt developers. Works like this: I got a small development here, I have my a) company set up for that; I got another development there, I got company b) setup for that. Company a) goes bust, brickies/plastererers/suppliers no get paid. But hey, this guy is coining it through comapanies b, c, d, etc. Here’s the scam, unfortunately those who havn’t been paid cannot put a lean on the developer to his other companies to get paid from their profits! They like to split up their developments this way to each one is insulated against each others losses. Nice one for the developer, not if you havn’t been paid for work carried out or for supplies!
That law should be changed immediately!
“What if the deposits in ANglo are the monies from the loans taking out from the same shower of plunderers creaming and kerchining the rigged econ system.”
Totally agree. All those deposits if the loans are toxic should be frozen? Should be public disclosure of the deposit book now taxpayers are paying for it! It would I’m sure show many surprises! Shouldn’t CAB/Revenue be sent in to vet all depositors, or write up a public disclosure certification of above board transactions.
OT I heard Goldman during the week say the approach to save Anglo was ‘sensible’ You don’t have to be John Perkins to wonder why their opinion was sought or counts? Were people shorting Anglo through Goldman and Goldman exposed if Anglo defaults?
Recovery Bank funded by Funding Bank? Bit like a wash hand basin and a toilet bowl in a toilet! Pity the ECB won’t pay for the flushing of the Recovery Bank.
Nothing is making sense anymore ………but allow me remind you again…hold your breath….the big moon pull starts next wednesday until 23rd …….and nore danger lingers in a moon wobble especially on 30 th Sept …….there will be lots to watch in the meantime ….so sit tight .
……it could be a 3-D version of events to experience ….thats all for now folks…..
All opinions count. But at the end of day its not opinion that counts. Including Cowen’s opinion, he will I believe be on News At One today speaking about Anglo.
Could someone put the following questions to him?
We need to stick to a systematic, evidence based, objective inquiry based on transparency and accountability and rigorous scientific method that can verify evidence.
Why are we not given the evidence re Anglo? How come Privacy Laws, ‘Commercial Sensitivity’ arguments are being used to protect toxic debt transactions that ‘Joe Public’ has to pay for? Lets publish all the evidence uncovered so far and not have a nonsense summary of facts opined by Honahan et al.
Why are we drip fed facts that later turn out to be lies? Is this a socialist state set up following a coup d’état by the banks who’ve managed to turn the population into serfs who have now to be put to work to pay up for bankster illegal debts?
How come Mr Cowen appears to know as much about the banks as Joe Public?
To repeat:
We need to stick to a systematic, evidence based, objective inquiry based on transparency and accountability and rigorous scientific method that can verify evidence. All facts related to the banking collapse need to be made public! All facts re documents/communications between Ireland re above should be made public.
Propaganda from FF and Pravda RTE in small bites is no longer acceptable.
This is the LATEST scandal.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-developer-bash-sparks-rage-2334614.html
This is absolutely absurd. I mean if a convention centre is not a viable option, then don’t build it. It is a profitable option, then let the private sector build it. But do not get involved in this state capitalism mish-mash which breeds corruption, waste, and funny deals.
I am also wondering about any possible involvement from the Ditherer. This is another area where the state got involved and it was none of the state’s business. That is correct.
I would not be surprised if this also proves a flop.
All of this ridiculous mal-allocation of money to stupid schemes with no pay back in financial terms, will bankrupt this country. I was listening to a spokesperson for Dublin Chamber of Commerce praising this as a great idea, and saying how it would result in a massive inflow of money into the hotel trade. As regards statistics, all we got was a statistic that the average delegate attending a conference spends 1600 Euro altoghether. That is no use, if you multiply it by zero delegates. This market is already crowded out in Europe and cities like Paris, Rome, etc.. have ancillary advantages. Just ask the FG front bench (Enda, Lucinda etc..) over their Paris bash that coincided with the rugger international and Valentines Day in February…..
We need a proper seperation of Business and State in this country. Because when the two start getting mixed up in each other, we get nothing but missallocation of capital to stupid schemes like this.
Apart from anything else, are there not already large convention centres in business ? Baron CityWest has a large convention centre that is big enough to host political Ard-Fheiseanna, but the Baron is in receievership as well also. Maybe Anglo owns that as well.
Anglo is becomming a vast holding country for all sorts of failed enterprises, hotels, apartment complexes, car parks, ghost estates, and now….conference centres..
The link that I ommitted.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-developer-bash-sparks-rage-2334614.html
Hi Deco, your unrelenting campaign for higher standards has got to meet with success at some stage. Survival of Ireland Inc depends on it. Re Convention Centre, its the same old ‘Good, Bad, and Ugly’ from FF. Good! -> Lovely design in a terrific location and it should bring plenty of much needed extra revenue to hotels etc in the area, they got it right( compare to how they got it wrong with the Spike:); the Bad, -> sewage fiasco here http://bit.ly/adiPly ; the Ugly, -> every thing you say, corrupt contagion of public/private partnership (more socialism from FF) plus the out of control crazy cost of it. Lets see the tender documents! Its amazing that a big glass bin cost nearly half a billion:) Laugh in order not to cry!
How come it doesn’t pass into the ownership of the state because Ronan et al are in NAMA? How come Ronan is allowed to be in business in this country and has not been decalred bankrupt?
“Big Glass Bin”.
The comment about “the good, the bad and the ugly” is correct. Typical of these state subsidised, business crony schemes.
This is what we see repeatedly. Superficially it is a work art. Likewise the funding arrangements, the tax clauses, etc….And now we have Honest Tom lobbying to “provide Ireland with the type of infrastructure projects that we deserve”.
If Honest Tom cares that much about infrastructure, he should go and tell the IMF.
Deco: “Anglo is becoming a vast holding country for all sorts of failed enterprises, hotels, apartment complexes, car parks, ghost estates, and now….conference centres..”
At least no one in NAMA has yet suggested building a Disneyland complex on Inishmore, with a thrill ride starting on Dun Aengus and descending the cliffs to the sea below.
But don’t hold your breath.
:)
Who needs Disney Channel when you can listen to the Ditherer…..he tells stories that will make your ears stand up…..you enter a virtual world with all sorts of mythical characters……fairytales like the young pauper from Drumcondra….who was skating on thin ice…..and then he won 36 grand on the races….and he forgot about it….. and had it hid under the floorboards until his secretary reminded the Tribunal….and then he got his memory back….
Who needs Disney Channel when we have Pravda/RTE ?
It always ends in a happy ending….LTEV and all of that….
Saw a clip for tomorrow nights Freefall. Bertie says, “I asked the question was there anything to be concerned about [i presume he was talking of the overheating economy/property sector], and the response was ‘don’t worry about it Taioseach’”.
Even the wording of this seems highly improbable. Maybe he got his financial education from UCD and Oxford or was it the LSE that he claimed to have attended.
We live in very dangerous times. Our democracy is wilting on the vine, Tubridy gave Willie O’Dea the isn’t of times last Friday, but then they were practically talking to clones. If Bertie gets the nomination from FF and if the Irish people put him in the Aras then I am packing my bags.
Assuming he was not worrying about it, assuming he couldn’t distinguish between a bubble in the water and a river in flood, will they be showing his ‘suicide clip’ http://bit.ly/Yom4c
The captain of the ‘ship of fools’ who until lately was travelling the world blowing about how he successfully brought about the Celtic tiger economy now about to be rehabililitated by Pravda RTE?
Either he knew about it, and was too corrupt to the teeth to stop it; or, he didn’t know about it and was an incompetent, blustering buffoon who made fools of us all!
accountability\responsibility airbrushed and reputation now to be ‘rehabilitated’ by RTE as part of its ‘blame it on Lehmans’ propaganda!
He was understudy to CJH. That was where he got his financial education. He also worked as an accountant to FAS (then called ANCO). And as we know know, all sorts of uses are found for money in FAS….
Like you, I am highly sceptical of Ahern’s comments that were implying that he was worrying. This is a typical Ahernism. It tells you nothing, instead he is implying that he is more honest, more concerned, more hard working than people are giving him credit for…
I saw that Tubridy show. Another O’Dea FF Pravda RTE propaganda whitewash.
Nothing about the real story of the courageous and skilled Limerick journalist whose professionalism saved his own ass and brought Willie down.
Mike Dwane should have been on that show showing his tape http://bit.ly/cXcTKC
Can’t believe O Dea can show his face in public, never mind be accorded the likes of the Late Late to begin his political campaign to save his seat. Tubridy is no Max Keiser and they pay him well not to be!
Heard about the O’Dea complaining about the Boil.
Half of one and a dozen of other.
O’Dea is now in favour of moving the having the by-elections. That is an improvement. It is amazing how being kicked out of the cabinet can improve a man’s sense of decency, and make him feel more humble….It should happen more often…
Well Cow-boy ultimately canned his ass, the by-election call puts pressure back on him (something I doubt he will agree to), I am done with the Late, Late, I can watch FOX for unfiltered propaganda…..Micheal Martin is uncharacteristically quiet.
Dublin, Offaly showdown it seems….Lenihan’s health situation though is the achilles heel, so I expect things to limp along with Kenny shouting (continuously) for a general election (what an ineffective opposition they are)………Irish politics is quite simply disastrous, a true ‘boyle’ on the nation’s posterior.
I ‘missed’ Bertie in Honduras, a country with staggering poverty and inequalities, replete with a Western backed elite who refused to chat, almost as bad as our own (somehow I ended up in the Marriott in San Salvador for New Year’s party), God help the poor and working poor in that country if they go further down the neoliberal road.
NAMA CONSULTANCY GRAVY TRAIN COST THE TAXPAYER EURO 630,000.00….PER DAY!
Salary levels in Nama and its sister agency the NTMA are “confidential”, finance minister Brian Lenihan told the Dail recently.
Why does the Irish public accept this?
Nama is set to spend up to €2.3bn on consultants, advisers and fees over the next decade.
Yes, this was in the news the week NAMA was setup.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/shane-ross-nama-offers-lsquogoldplatedrsquo-pensions-to-attract-staff-2334793.html
I have a question for you Folks on the Irish voting system.
What is the situation concerning voters turnout? How does the system work when for example only 30% of the population would use their vote and 70% would not go and vote?
Is the Election still valid?
Maybe someone on RTE/PRAVDA will have a Damascus moment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ELleCQvew&feature=related
The SBP was cracking today. David was at his usual best as was Richard Curran but Kathleen Barrington took the honours. It’s self explanatory what she’s saying and I’m not going to go into it here just in case I’m accused of blasphemy or worse.
But suffice it to say that I now know where the little pots were kept.
As for The Great Leader getting into the Aras, he holds all the cards on everyone and being elected leaves him almost immune from past misdeeds if you study Article 12, section 10 of the Constitution.
Essentially, 30 members of one or other House of the Oireachtas must sign a proposal which has to be adopted by two thirds of the members of that House which would then be investigated by the other House.That investigating House must then pass an impeachment resolution by a two thirds majority to remove the incumbent President.
Practically, since the Dáil has been working off something like a 60% \ 40% split since its inception a two thirds majority is an extremely unlikely occurence thus making impeachment realistically impossible and the President effectively above the law.
Must go study the Irish business version of Austrian Economics now.
http://bit.ly/byNBxe
In Iceland they’re debating whether to prosecute the politicos for negligence. In Ireland,land of the fairies and the leprechauns, we’re debating giving Bertie Leprechaun One the presidency.
…..and ‘a pot of gold’ .
Or at least we’re being bog-minded into not wanting all the others for various reasons leaving, wait for it, yer only man Berts as the best of the rest.
Watch the spin machine character assassinate all the others between now and Easter next.
To be fair, the vast majority of the Country did what a normal democracy does in that the elected few were trusted to, through social conscience, protect the many.
As a growing pain of a young State, we trusted too much and an elite vulture race saw this, capitalised on it for avaricious reasons.
The people are on a steep learning curve as to how a mature democracy manages its elected officials and administrative cadre.
Anyone promising to fix a pothole come the next election should be put into one.
The intellectual deficit in this country is tangible and has been nurtured through an education system hell bent on the selective streaming of our version of a nascent nobility. It is not as important though, as is the childlike, unquestioning acceptance of our masters folly.
An Ascendancy of sub-prime, priviledged individuals, nurtured by over 50 years of the “Pull”, were sucked into the international big boys game, with the big boys demanding payback at any cost to the security or survival of the State.
Wherefore Lisbon now?
Our best and brightest, our real leaders, are being forced to emigrate because they constitute a threat to the survival of the Sciortáins in charge.
Every Irish person knows what a Sciortáin is and what it does. http://WWW.Sciortáin.com might not be a bad way to coalesce ordinary Irish opinion on the shenanigans. The SBP is fine but too specialised. Fir agus Mná na h-Eireann need to be reached and educated about what the collectively can do in simple terms, so that this debacle never happens again.
Just a thought.
F
And I should revert quickly to a brilliant insight from Deco some time ago in that;
“People who think they are smarter than average, and who define themselves as smarter than average tend to create above average disasters.”
Thus is Irish Hubris defined. If the Sciortáin thing gains momentum, then that insight should be its motto.
Furrylugs and Deco: ““People who think they are smarter than average, and who define themselves as smarter than average tend to create above average disasters.”
In Ireland the situation is even worse than that, because of the ‘Lake Woebegone Effect’. This was named after the fictional place where parents all thought that their children were all Above Average.
It is also known as Illusory Superiority. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
The entire Irish nation sometimes seems to suffer from the illusion that we are all ‘Above Average’.
Eamon Blaney writing in the Sunday Indo p23 writes, ‘in the weeks preceding the meeting (guarantee), Anglo bonds were changing hands on the financial markets at a 40% discount.’
Election straight away! Any party willing to allow Anglo default gets my vote.
Re Cowen speaking rubbish on News At One his Asset Recovery Bank and Funding bank to protect the depositors, its a laugh the Funding back can accept deposits!
Cowen not asked on least costly option for the Irish taxpayer involving 50 -60% bondholder renegotiation on Sept 30 or near enough to. Asset Recovery Bank is the toilet, Funding Bank is the wash hand basin they’re using to save depositors against the risk of contamination from the toilet.
Clueless Cowen praising himself for NAMA and blagging about LTEV and NAMA costing of the assets.lol
Stability for Ireland Inc rests on getting rid of this FF rabble of economic hitmen asap! Ironically, the disaster we were warned against re default has come about because of not owning up to the need for Anglo default. And its only starting, the mess will get worse!
Colum Kenny once again in the Sunday Independent asking where all the billions went to?
We need to know exactly who got what and spent it where and where the losses were made.
It seems we are no closer today than 2 years ago to that information?
Kathleen Barrington points the way in todays SBP……………
always been a fan of KB thx for tip looking forward to reading it
Now I might have got this wrong, but after you read Kathleens piece, have a look at this;
http://www.valartis.at/Download.aspx?mode=doc&id=IBr5kyHPWhuIuT1X%2f%2fKkkw%3d%3d
It would appear that there is 777 million held by foreigners in this aforesaided mentioned august institution. That must rank as one of the fastest high potential start ups of all time unless of course the figure was inherited by the sale from Anglo. In which case one would presume that either Anglo was very good at winning depositors out there in Austria or, well, figure it out for yourself.
Anyone know where Matthew Elderfield is at?