Last year I remember watching the ‘Who Do You Think You Are?’ programme on RTE featuring the eminently likeable Simon Delaney. The unfolding story of his grandfather in the First World War was extraordinary. Using records from the Guinness brewery, an odd mention of the British Legion in a newspaper and British military records, Delaney pieced together the drama of a young Dublin man caught up in the madness of the western front.
Using records from the Guinness brewery, an odd mention of the British Legion in a newspaper and British military records, Delaney pieced together the drama of a young Dublin man caught up in the madness of the western front.
Delaney’s family story is similar to that of thousands of other families whose grandfathers fought in the Great War only to be ostracised when they came home. It was therefore right that President McAleese paid homage to the fallen Irish dead at Gallipoli in Turkey last week.
However, the thing that captured my imagination in Delaney’s story was not the greater significance of history being written and rewritten, but the small details. Small details such as the fact that in four years of war, and after millions had been slaughtered, Delaney’s grandfather found himself in 1918 more or less where he had started in 1914. This pathetic return for so much carnage reinforces again just how appalling the tactics of the generals were.
The wonderfully vivid but tragic expression attributed to the German high command during the war that the British generals were “donkeys commanding lions” certainly rings true when you look at the military record. Now I’m no expert on wars and military strategy (I will leave it to my colleague Kevin Myers), but it seems that the Germans were full of admiration for the bravery and tenacity of the average British and Irish soldier, but were thankful that the higher up you went in the British army, the more stupid the people became. “Asses” was how a German general described the British top brass.
But it appears that history is full of these examples and it is often noted that generals have a tendency to “fight the last war”. I suppose that this is only natural: after all, most of us are only the sum of our experiences, so we learn life-lessons from old scraps and skirmishes and we apply them to the next challenge. But sometimes we are faced with a totally new situation where the old rules don’t apply and simply sticking to what might have worked in the past only makes things worse.
For example, in the First World War, the generals’ game plan had not kept up with their own technology and they committed millions of men to trench warfare which led to mass slaughter. As soon as the armies got bogged down, advanced artillery meant that they got stuck, each negating the other. The generals’ response to this was to feed more and more lives into the grinder. Rather than change tactics, they presided over mass, senseless murder.
Here is a great example of where “fighting the last war” caused enormous damage to an entire generation.
But the phenomenon of those with responsibility and power fighting outdated wars extends into the world of business, finance and economics. The mundane world is full of examples where pride, vanity and an unwillingness to see that the ground has shifted leave once powerful companies and countries languishing, while new competitors seize the opportunities. We see many examples where ideology and dogma dictate the response to a crisis and the authority of a hugely powerful institution evaporates because it is unwilling to change in the face of new challenges.
The Catholic Church in Ireland is a good example of this. The cardinals and bishops, like the First World War generals, thought they could do what they have always done and the problems would go away. But the world had changed.
So it is easy to see how entrenched ideology and an unwillingness to reassess the problem you are dealing with affects both your starting and, ultimately, your finishing point. Now, with that in mind, consider NAMA.
On Monday, on ‘The Last Word’ radio programme I suggested the alternative to NAMA which is to simply get the creditors of the banks in a room and tell them we can’t pay all the money back and even if we could, we shouldn’t because the game has changed and keeping the banks afloat will not get Ireland out of recession.
Unlike the First World War generals, we need to admit that the old rules don’t apply any more and thus, we need a totally new game plan, not an intensified version of the old plan, which will only cause more unnecessary misery.
The presenter Matt Cooper responded by asking me the very logical question: “Do you think that there is so much political capital sunk into the NAMA project that they will not change it now, even if other plans might be better?” Fair question, until you think of the idea “political capital”. Political capital is all about prestige, vanity and sunk costs. It is a meaningless concept, but one which causes the establishment to “fight the last war”.
Political capital is therefore not an asset, but a liability that weighs us down and prevents us from changing. Like the soldiers in the trenches, we the taxpayers are being asked to go over the top based on blind faith in an establishment that tells us there is no alternative — when there patently is.
The alternative is the old fashioned rules of capitalism, which reward success and punish failure. So when a business fails like AIB is failing, the assets are sold and the thing is closed down. The creditors take whatever they are given. In the case of bank failures, the state guarantees depositors’ funds under a deposit insurance scheme and we start again.
Sure, Irish prestige is dented and our status is affected because some might say, “advanced countries don’t behave like this”. But the damage is already done — not by what we do now but by what we did over the past few years.
Now think of the Government’s latest hare-brained move announced last night, which will see us owning the banks, which are the problem not the solution. It is difficult not to see that NAMA has become an article of faith and ideology. It is the “last war” scenario.
We know that the facts on the ground have changed dramatically. When NAMA was announced, the idea that we the taxpayers might cough up a bridging loan for the banks’ property portfolio was based on the notion that the property portfolio was damaged but still worth something.
That’s when we were reassured that the cost to us would be capped by discounts of 30pc. Now, with yesterday’s announcement, we know the cost will soar as the “assets” are discounted by 50pc. And there is worse to come because, according to NAMA, 43pc of the loans to be transferred to it are ‘land’ (ie green fields and land less than 30pc developed) yet only 23pc of yesterday’s figures are ‘land’ — meaning the news on this front will get worse. Based on the estimates we will shovel billions of euro into the banks to keep them open.
We have also been informed that €8.3bn will be transferred to Anglo now. Additional support will be required to the tune of €10bn. So that is an extra €18.3bn for Anglo alone. AIB will need another €7.4bn to keep it open. Irish Nationwide will need another €2.6bn and Bank of Ireland will receive €2.7bn from us, the taxpayer. But these figures have been calculated by people who have constantly underestimated the scale of the problem, so why trust them now?
NAMA and throwing money at our banking system is the financial equivalent of trench warfare, billions will be wasted and we will be left with the bizarre situation where even the winner loses.









+1 David. hear hear. excellent article particularly with reference to the many frogs boiling away in kettles and unaware that their environment has changed…….!
Bankers, business execs, bishops, politicians and …..economists. Holding on to tired old paradigms won’t help when the sands are shifting or the ‘facts’ that one is being fed are not so factual in their substance.
The doors of perceptions are only ajar, letting very little light into that cabinet war room of ours……….
Deco.
Another fishy for you.
QuInn Insurance, same day as ANGLO nuclear debt bomb release.
David.
This money coming from NAMA which the banks will receive from the ECB for the bonds swap with the gov for the toxic loans, lets actually put that one under the microscope and see it for what it is in reality as opposed to what the ‘insiders’ are spoofing it is.
For example David.
- The toxic loans the gov are buying with bonds and writing down, these loans lets really look at these loans. Are they real cash.
- Alot of these loans were in fact accrues into accounts as is the way banks loan out. So, for example, GLASS BOTTLE site 400,000,000 loan. Most of this loan is made up of accrues into accounts. The bank is not giving out 400,000,000 in cash to the owners of the glass bottle site. So, why is the gov giving the bank bonds for the loan which resides as accrues in a ledger.
These questions need to be seriously considered.
I have a question?
Are you saying that..
the loaned money used to purchase the glass bottle site and the cash for other loans has not yet been transferred from the bank to the purchaser?
If so, does that mean the capital being given to Anglo is being used to pay these loans?
..to a degree.
If one take s the glass bottle site, the loan to the buyer then buyer buys site. But, buyer buys site not with cases full of cash but a transfer.
SO, the loan still remains accrues in an account unless the purchaser empties out the account for the 400,000,000 in cash, but then who does that.
???
The seller was Dublin Port Company (33%) and South Wharf Plc (67%). They got €138m and €274m respectively. That money is spent.
Doesn’t matter what account it’s now sitting in. If you put a fiver on the bar to buy a bottle of beer, the fiver belongs to the publican … it’s not “unspent” just ‘cos you can still see where it is.
wills – this doesn’t ring true for me.
We are witnessing the greatest swindle of public finances in the history of the Irish State, that money is well gone, sitting in accounts all over the world……….
They banksters had the government by the nuts, they knew members of the cabinet had got easy money, they knew developers had made contributions to the FF party, they knew FF TDs have serious property holdings and some are potentially in serious debt.
They positioned themselves on both sides of the deal (win-win), probably never saw the magnitude of what was coming down the line but probably knew if the crap did hit the fan their buddies would step in and bail them out, in any case they had become so big they ‘were of systemic importance’ and too big to fail’ – what an operation they had going, classic financial cartel – there was no way they could not make money.
For all that, both the Banksters and the leading political figures involved should be taken into custody, suspicion alone should merit a knock at the door, the State has been hung out to dry, the people are now suffering for the ‘cosy capitalism’ and ‘sweet deals’ that went on.
PROTESTS OUTSIDE ANGLO TOMORROW. ALL SHOULD ATTEND. BRING YOUR FRIENDS
Ireland will be the next Greece, now with a national debt of 140 billion with a population of 4 million compared to Greece with 300 billion debt and a population of 11 million.
What has just happened is that the EU have instructed the Irish government to carry out this exercise, to draw a line underneath the problem. The EU will now look upon Ireland as the next big problem and this will have an effect on the euro. They don’t want another Greece but this is exactly what they will get. When we went to the ECB for help we signed over the running of our country to the EU.
I have moved all of my money out of the country today in the knowledge that things are about to get very bad for Ireland. Just as Greeks have become a bunch of losers we will now be cast in the same light.
The next step will be the bond markets waking up to this, the cost of borrowing will soar as will the cost of insuring our debt.
The GDP growth of the last 15 years was just a credit bubble, our growth was not growth but just old fashioned inflation. When the EU turned a blind eye to our inflation because we were small and insignificant they made matters worse. Now they will have to take some preventative measures as we become the next Greece. What they will do remains to be seen.
“I have moved all of my money out of the country today in the knowledge that things are about to get very bad for Ireland.”
No public figure like DMcW can risk being accused of starting a bank run, but to me this is the simplest way of shouting “stop!”. Voting with your feet (fingers). Just saying is all, massa.
Not only a bank run but anybody who is in the position to leave the country will now seriously think of doing so.
One feels so powerless in the face of such odds, I search my brain every evening after work to see if I could start a business, create employment, do something to turn things around for the country I still love despite the complete betrayal that has taken place.
I think of my grandfathers who fought so I could enjoy freedom in a progressive Republic, what are we left with? What a disservice to all those who gave their lives. Gilmore was right, it is a form of economic treason and possibly suicide.
It feels like I am some extra in an epic disaster film.
I have to balance out this shit with this amazing performance, we need music for the soul and hope for the spirit despite these appalling times.
Enjoy……………..
La Campanella by Yundi Li
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEnfZjqMSy0
G,
I think the whole country is in that mood. However, I do think that the younger generation think differently about their ancestors nowadays. Therefore I think they will decide and choose what is good for them and sadly enough, it is moving away from home and country. The modern age is making the world so small so it is not so traumatic for parent and child anymore.
We need to take a few deep breaths and in the stillness of the mind we will come to accept the things as they are.
Thanks for the music. I needed that :-)
I don’t agree with their policies, but the Socialist party is demonstrating outside ANGLO TOMORROW so I think we should all go and get as many friends as we can to join in
Here’s one to ponder guys. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the law changed a few months ago which stated that you couldn’t go to jail for not paying debts. It was marketed as saving poorer people from being jailed for not paying Tv licence etc. But isn’t it a coincidence that it came about just before we found out about these scum owing millions!!! Think about that one
Oh, It’s a Lovely War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8aCnmBVtQ4&feature=related
The End of the Republic?
(2009 article)
Gustav Stresemann, German Economics Minister during the Weimar Republic, facing rapidly rising unemployment, crippling international reparations and spiralling inflation commented that Germany was economically ‘dancing on the edge of a volcano’. Stresemann’s concern possibly hastened his premature death while history judged his comments entirely prescient as they predated by just months the Great Depression, the rise to power of the Nazi Party and the engulfing of the globe in the flames of the Second World War.
In Ireland, as the government reviews the McCarthy report and its recommendations for extracting €5.2 billion from a crippled economy, set against a backdrop of rapidly rising unemployment and a serious political vacuum at the heart of our government, the Irish Republic is conducting its own volcanic flirtations.
The reduction of Irish society during the Celtic Tiger years through the hyper commodification of virtually all aspects of life from obscene house prices, to rising health and childcare costs underpinned by disastrous economic mismanagement have consigned the ideals of equality and fairness imbued in the character of the nascent Irish Republic to the dustbin of history and left us, as Yeats wrote, ‘fumbling in the greasy till’.
How did the Ireland arrive at this ignoble juncture? If we listen to the political elite then Ireland was the ‘victim’ of an unseen economic tsunami that viciously broke against these shores last summer. If we examine the Financial Times at the height of the financial fiasco in Anglo Irish Bank then “cosy capitalism at its worst” was the home grown culprit. Indeed, Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman and Dan O’Brien, senior economist with the Economist Intelligence Unit, have both highlighted the negative role of Irish government policy rather than the machinations on Wall Street in Ireland’s economic demise. However, to blame entirely those almost mythical figures from Doheny and Nesbitt would seem myopic; the neoliberal system, which currently dominates the global economic system, is by its very nature highly unstable and not unfairly characterised as ‘casino capitalism’.
Indeed, Professor Noam Chomsky’s constant reiteration of Western capitalism’s tendency towards the socialisation of risk and privatisation of profit ring especially true in the Irish context in light of the governments decision to grant carte blanche to the banking fraternity while hinting at drastic cuts in social welfare, health and education – policies which will have a deleterious effect on the future development of this country.
Whether or not Ireland goes the way of Iceland is for soothsayers and shaman to predict because as the economist Kenneth Galbraith once said: ‘economic forecasting was designed to make astrology look respectable’. Indeed, the predictions by Irish economists of ‘growth’ for the Irish economy to ‘soft landings’ for the property market have proved illusory and arguably further exacerbated our economic decline.
As billions are rumoured to be squirreled away in offshore accounts by those demonstrating a different kind of patriotism, the Irish government is forced yet again to turn to ‘its masses, its poor and growing numbers of unemployed’, to paraphrase the immortal words engraved on the Statue of Liberty, for arguably the greatest bailout of the corporate and political classes in Western Europe, an irony which must not go unnoticed.
The ‘anguish’ the Irish Cabinet is experiencing over how best to politically extract billions from the economy is a long way from the scandal about the multi-million euro overspend on e-voting machines, which so vexed the irish public’s imagination for so long, and now seems like an almost romantic period in our political history. Such issues pale into insignificance when compared to the enormity of the financial behemoth swiftly bearing down on the Irish state.
Ireland has learned a bitter lesson over the past year that the tired slogans such as ‘the end of community’ and that ‘greed is good’ reflect a vacuous and self-centred economic ideology that can seriously undermine a society’s development. The Irish must use this crisis to create a new republic where people come before profit and we see an end to ruthless individual competitiveness of bankers and property developers, which characterised the so called ‘boom years’.
President John F. Kennedy, in an address to the Joint Houses of the Irish Parliament on June 28th 1963, said: “It is that quality of the Irish – that remarkable combination of hope, confidence and imagination – sceptics or cynics, whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were, and ask why not.”
Ireland needs inspired, untarnished and respected leadership to rekindle them. It must also vigorously demonstrate its unwillingness to surrender every advance it has made in terms of fostering greater equality, opening up access to Third Level education, assisting the disadvantaged elements in its society and supporting developing countries through Irish Aid, most of all, it must turn its affairs around and fast.
~ G.
“Ireland needs inspired, untarnished and respected leadership to rekindle them.”
It also needs an inspired and untarnished Joe Public who will no longer be the greedy dupe. None of the property bubble scam would have worked if we didn’t want to be scammed, if we weren’t practically begging to be scammed.
I know it’s unpopular to say around here … and yes, I know that many people had no part in it … but like the eighties when the national pastime was tax evasion, enough people were doing it, and enough other people stayed silent about it. (A MAJORITY of people, if the 2007 elections are anything to go by).
“The reduction of Irish society during the Celtic Tiger years” Reduction was a good choice of word here as it paints a picture of masses of people being subjected to some awful chemical or biological experiment such as the fluoridation of public water supplies.
The very idea of the socialisation of risk and the privatisation of profit would make any proud people rise and start a revolution but the Irish people have been too sentimental in their attachment to America. America has been under the control of dark Neo-liberal forces for decades and Neoliberal dogma has penetrated the consciences of ordinary people far across the globe and made them selfish.
Neoliberal slogans such as ‘the end of community’ and ‘greed is good’ are frankly
disgusting in my opinion but they are concepts which the Irish people believe deep
down in my opinion because it has been programmed into their subconsciousness for
so long.
It is not going to do us much good harking back to J.F. Kennedy either because although he made some impressive speeches he is not an icon to follow for those of us who aspire to remain untarnished. His private life was a disgrace and his father was a criminal.
Where is Ireland going to find inspired and untarnished leadership? If you can point out such people then I will consider voting for them. I agree more with what ps200306 is saying about Joe Public. Screw hiding the truth lest we trample on the sensitivities of a few mammies boys. There is battle going on for the heart and soul of the nation and the Irish are punch drunk for god sake.
Yesterday there was a demo against AIB and it was ordinary working class people who were out on the streets. That is where the middle classes need to look if they want change. I think that gap is now too wide and that the country has defragmented into a society where every man is alone with his problems. I hope I am wrong but I don’t think so.
http://www.michaeljournal.org/moneytrick.htm
Hope someone can clarify a few points for me as I have been following this on RTE and the Indo website and I’m not sure that I have the full picture…
Was an alternative provided to NAMA and if so what? All Kenny and Gilmore seem to do is spout superlatives about what the govt are doing wrong but I have yet to hear what they would do that could potentially avoid this situation.
As per Charlie Birds report on Drumm and his or should I say the Irish taxpayers money spent on his $4m home, is there any way that the Irish govt can go after him and all the rest of the Anglo crew that have brought this bank to its knees and get them to sell whatever property they own outside of Ireland and try to recoup some of the bad debts sitting on the banks books?
The figure to maintain Anglo just keeps climbing while the cost of shutting it down seems to be staying reletively constant. So apart from the bond holders, creditors and deposit holders who need to be paid their money I’m at a loss to see why there is an absolute must to keep this bank going. Why not merge whats good in Anglo however small, and EBS and Irish Nationwide together and create a third alternative bank and try and write off some of the bad debts in the hope that we can reduce the amount of govt/taxpayer/EU money that is needed to prop them up?
I realise that public opinion in the govt is pretty low but do people think that Fine Gael is a credible alternative and the fact that Europe needs to maintain the credibilty of the Euro and they seem to be staying on top of whatever action is being taken by the govt into the countrys finances does that not provide people with some assurance that things are been carried out in an upfront manner??
Rheinmeister09,
I suspect any money that can be recovered from the Drumms et al., are a tiny drop in the ocean, compared to what is owed. These people were lent vast sums on the strength of their Anglo share holdings. They appear to have lost a lot of the money on bad investments, while the collateral shares became worthless. Unfortunately, the (largely deserved) demonising of the people who have run up the vast debts we now have to shoulder hides the fact that they were, quite simply, amazingly incompetent bungling fucking eejits, with their own assets no less than those of the companies they ran.
I think people are finally waking up to how sunk we are as a country, with the numbers that are finally being trotted out in the last few days (although those are unlikely to be the end of it). We are buried under a literal mountain of debt.
Like you, I would like to see something more than handwaving about alternatives to NAMA. One thing seems clear — we cannot just wind a bank like Anglo down tomorrow. Even if the creditors could be bargained with, we simply cannot pay the depositors back their money. Nor can we use a gimmick like running Anglo down, then waving a magic wand which transfers all the depositors money to accounts in another (new or existing) institution, backed by a government guarantee. Such an institution would have to have to be capitalised sufficiently to be legally allowed to take on the liability represented by all those depositor accounts. And the government would have to stump up that money. So how is that different than the recapitalisation we are already talking about? Is the difference that we would now be free of Anglo, having struck a deal with its creditors whereby they accept pennies on the dollar for what they are owed? How much are we talking about? Who are the creditors — are they other banks, pension funds etc. whose losses will spread contagion throughout the European financial system?
I don’t see anyone stepping up to the plate to provide these answers. And while I hate the idea of NAMA, it’s not fair to crib about it when I don’t actually know of any alternative.
So in other words Anglo is like an unexploded bomb that could go off and reverberate far and wide.
@ps200306
“I don’t see anyone stepping up to the plate to provide these answers. And while I hate the idea of NAMA, it’s not fair to crib about it when I don’t actually know of any alternative.”
You don’t seem to wonder why Lenihan has not spelled out alternatives.
re”waving a magic wand which transfers all the depositors money to accounts in another (new or existing) institution, backed by a government guarantee”
This rather than a magic wand is normal practice in the US for similar wind down’s e.g Washington Mutual.
Plus the extra depositor base would strengthen those banks and could be done under normal competition EU rules.
Sinking all this money into Anglo in any case is a breach of proper competition rules giving Anglo unfair advantage in the market place. The EU are investigating this as we speak.
Overall, the view that you are prepared to accept in the absence of alternatives the NAMA way, seems you are not too concerned about knowing any of the alternatives to NAMA. You couldn’t be bothered one way or the other?
And we wonder why taxpayers are so easily brainwashed??
Perhaps a more critical, scientific and objective approach might help to explore alternatives.
The legalities you mention are going to be part of the EU framework for dealing with crises such as these. Winding down a bank along with a banking levy to pay for such wind downs see cbweb @ 36 will be protocol for banking crises in the future.
Perhaps we might get ‘extraordinary rendition’ of David Drumm from the CIA – one sure way of getting answers out of him.
Listening to the talk of “smart economies” and innovation etc…, and how these avenues will haul us out this mess; personally I think it’s utter trash to expect such and here’s just a few reasons why:
As a result of our “paper wealth” a while ago, Ireland Inc still likes to think of itself as an attractive option for foreign investment. Its as if the current scenario is a minor blip on the radar and we’ll back in business in no time.
This was the sort of trash being smashed home on a recent Frontline programme by the moronic “Irish Property Council”.
(A poor souls organisation to help the downtrodding property investors who got in too late and didn’t make their fast buck at the rest of our expense – Piss off and get real my friends. Punks like you were the reason 90% of my generation couldn’t afford a roof over their heads)
Instead of creating a modern CBD down around the IFSC, complete with skyscrapers, we arse around and built outwards to protect “our skyline”. This is nonsense. Every succesful city builds up, not out. Commutes are reduced and such structures offer large volumes of living, retail, and office space at the expense of fractional ground level usage. Consider the tallest building recently unveiled in Dubai. What area would be required to build all its uses at ground level?
Another point, we’re out on the edge of Europe when the shift is moving to Asia and the East in general, we’re in economic freefall, we no longer offer any unique competitive incentives for companies to locate here, the bureaucracy is stifling, commuting times are dire, trade unions have us hijacked, we’re to expensive, we’re isolated, we’re governed by incompetents, taxes are to increase, paramilitarys up north start their shit again?… the list goes on and on.
Consider the following, WE HAVE VERY FEW SUSTAINABLE INDUSTRIES IN IRELAND.
Its a sad fact! When the Government were riding high on the “Celtic Waffler”, why were we not re-investing serious cash into sustainable, non speculative industries to create jobs for citizens of all abilities.
So that when the inevitable came to visit us, as it is now, we’d have the contingency plan ready to rock with no fuss.
To my untrained economic eye, it’s no longer the case whereby the east makes shit to sell to the west, where we then capitalise on big margins. China and Asia in general is where its at now, and will continue to be for a long long time. Not only do they manufacture everything, the numbers of middle class citizens in China is growing seriously fast. All the young are learning to speak English and all the biggest companies are establishing roots there. Essentially, they’re a largely sustainable society due to the diverse range of economic activities.
The only peice of worthwhile news to come out of Ireland all year is that one of the Loreto Schools in Dublin is now going to offer Mandarin as a language to its students. More of this please, thank you very much…
How many Irish leave Uni to go work in France or Spain? Or perhaps go to Rome to speak ancient Latin? A nice overhaul of the education system will do also, thanks very much. One thats not just focused on students who can sit, learn, and regurgitate answers that have been written by their teacher in accordance with the rigid marking scheme, which he/she hands out year after year. There are plenty of students who seek something more stimulating and creative than this kind of boll*x.
This type of thing demeans creativity and leads young people into believing its the “sit for hours on end and study way” or the doghouse highway.
There was a young working class chap in England some years back who won the lottery. He was 19 and to my knowledge, blew every last penny on woman, drugs, parties, cars etc… to the point where he’s got nothing left. He made no worthwhile investment with his cash while living this unsustainble life of excess. Because of this, he’s now back to square one. I reckon the ordinary Joe in Ireland now knows exactly how he feels. We acted acted like a nation of excessive, ignorant, nouveau riche twats with our heads up our arses and now the chickens have come home to roost. With the way things are, they’ll be roosting for a long time to come.
PMC,
Looks like a pretty fair assessment.
The one thing that the posters here might pull you up on is that those who are now faced with paying off our mountain of debt are not necessarily those who incurred it. That is the moral hazard which is so objectionable. We are left holding the baby for the banks and the property developers and investors who were trying to work their way to the top of the property pyramid, constantly bootstrapping themselves to higher and higher levels of debt so that the next pay-off would be ever bigger than the last. It may have been greed and stupidity rather than malice aforethought, but either way we pay for their sins.
And then there is the complicity of Joe Public who bought into the whole bubble. We took money that never existed – our notional property equity, and the cheap credit that the banks loaded on us — and we spent it. We borrowed against future productivity to pay for the cars, the holidays and the hair-do’s of today. Unfortunately we blew it on trifles that contributed nothing to future productivity. Now the piper has to be paid. But again, it may not be those who did the spending that will be left carrying the can.
There is nothing worse than having to pay for beer you have already drunk.
“A nice overhaul of the education system will do also, thanks very much.”
Only thing to caution against is the ideologically motivated farting around that successive UK governments have done with their education system. It does not seem to have resulted in any improvement over the past forty years. Oh, but grades have been improving … another one to watch out for is the UK/US horror at the idea that kids should be told when they haven’t done very well. I’m all for “stimulating and creative” — but sometimes there is no alternative to putting in the hard work.
QUESTION
Good morning,
Ahem, I have a question that someone around here kindly might be able to answer, and by all means, this is not a rhetorical question at all, I just do not understand it, simple as that!
It seriously puzzles me, because nowhere I hear people mentioning anything about it at all, hence I assume it is just my lack of knowledge!
03.30.2010, NAMA announcements and vote in the Dail.
03.31.2010. Anglo Reports 12.8 billion losses.
My question is simple, who is responsible for this order of events? Why did not a single soul in opposition and government ask for the order to be turned around? First publish Anglo reports, and then vote in the Dail!
Who was in charge to appoint this date, the vote exactly 24 hours before Anglo reports, what mechanism is behind this? – scratching head in disbelief! -
Isn’t it the case that Anglo wouldn’t have known what its losses were until it knew what the NAMA haircut was going to be on loans transferred?
Constantin wrote:
…. I do not mean the dumping of €8.3 billion to the Anglo which miraculously declared losses of €12.3bn = €4bn injected by taxpayer in 2009 + €8.3bn injected today. ….
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/03/economics-31032010-nama-funding-scheme.html
ahem, make that 12.3 billion losses, I am dizzy all right.
Isn’t it true that this Swiss Verein, a legal entity such as amnesty international and world wildlife fund, Deloitte & Touche, who took over the Anglo audit from Ernst & Young is somewhat famous for their involvement in “Round Trip Trading”, “Conflict of Interest”, “Inflating promotional allowances”, and more, to name but a few accounting scandals that these tricksters performed?
So we got rid of Ernst & Young and their possible involvement of hiding loans, and got what now instead?
Isn’t this the very Swiss Verein that consulted the Health Service Executive, costing tremendous sums for new Software Investments in 2005, which never worked and inevitably turned sour? Remember?
Ah well, it is re assuring that we have a legal head as finance minister, he knows too well why Deloitte is a Swiss Union.
We are all subprime now.
http://southofdub.blogspot.com/2010/03/we-are-all-subprime-now.html
Could the EU save us from NAMA? … or at least from Anglo …
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0401/1224267476441.html
BREAKING NEWS
Brian Cowen, Bertie Ahern and the Deloitte & Touche quire will be life on stage in the next Late Late Show performing a stage play by Quentin Tarantino with unpublished notes from Hank Bukowski and Richard Wagner’s Ring des Nibelungen Part 5.
Iceland’s secret service has published a you tube video with compromising evidence concerning the Pope who allegedly was having a wank over a video of Naomi Campell beating the crap out of a PapaRazzi (nger)
Sean Fitzpatrick was granted a special audience with the Dalai Lama.
Fox News broadcasted video material that was sent to them by reliable sources according to Bill O’Reilly, with clear evidence of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in somewhat unusual decent clothing standing right beside the master control panel of the CERN large hadron collider while performing it’s first collision. The tea party is calling for a preemptive nuclear strike on Teheran.
A picture will be published in the Irish Sunday business post showing Mary McAleese sucking on a massive 7 pipe hookah, exhaling a suspicious substance.
Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan outlined in the Government’s recapitalisation plan on Tuesday that the State may have to invest up to €10 billion more to cover future losses.
Here is to first of April Folks….. Cheers!
In a further development David Drumm has decided to hand himself over to authorities…..McUseless has decided to that she does not need 300 K per annum to be McUseless, and she will work on on the minimum wage….Brian Cowen has decided to quit drinking so that he will be sober enough to understand what is going on, and Mama Harney has decided to cycle to Leitrim to open a health shop, and lose a few pounds. John O’Donoghue will hand back all the money that he wasted as Minister for Fun, and will give up drinking and gambling. Fingers has handed in all his millions to the Revenue as a present. Gerry Whine has quit talk radio because he admits that he does not deserve the money, and Tubbers has decided to broaden his horizons to include topics other than celebrities, films and trivial rubbish, and find a job where he is worth what he earns. The TDs in the Dail all voted unanomously to work for 35K per year. CIE also reached an agreement to run the trains according to the time table. And the ESB has admitted that their prices are excessive and affecting industrial competitiveness. Therefore they will reduce the price of electricity to the EU average.
Denis O’Brien has decided to pay the Revenue the amount that he dodged over the ESAT sale. From now on O’Brien will be tax resident in Ireland, and will pay PAYE with pride instead engaging in the usual superficial PR stunts to display ‘pride and patriotism’. U2 have announced that they will re-imburse the revenue with all the money that the Revenue would have received they were on PAYE like the rest of us. Bono has apologized to the PAYE taxpayer for his arrogance down the years in knowing what should be done with other people’s money. This has inspired the three Amigos, Sir Anthony and ‘the Kaiser’ to follow the example and also move their tax residency to Ireland. All of this has improved the exchequer figures. As a result Moody’s have changed the debt rating on Irish Government bonds, and rated AAA.
The GP activists have stood forward collectively and admitted that they should not benefit from nepotism after being rejected by the electorate. They will resign from the state jobs that Gormless put them in last year. Dick Roche has stated that the Lisbon 2.0 vote was unconsitutional, and M. Sarkozy wants the Lisbon Treaty scrapped and replaced with something that is understandable. Dan McLoughlin has resigned and indicated that he has applied for a job to work for Irish Ferries. Austin Hughes has said that he is going back to college to learn something about economics.
Merde & Pschitt –
Ailing ‘Fucking Hell’ Taxpayers of Ireland may some day soon be glad when Deutschland & France join up in a ‘Hoch Euro’ a new machanism steeped in Charlemaign History to re-unite them to remain above the perifferals of europe.
Like many of Charlemaign’s war strategies this strategy will take his twins out of the trench of warfare and seat them on a hilltop above the rest while the war continues to take place deep in the trenches watched by his Generals .
This new ‘Hoch Euro’ Club will only be by invitation and will have a ‘gilt edge solid security attached to it’.
Ireland will remain in the dept of the dwingling Euro and blood money as its value re-alligns with the rest of the World – downwards .
‘Rabid Inflation ‘ will be around the corner as the soldiers ( Irish taxpayers ) return home only to be consumed by more Vultures.Grave Extentions replace empty Hospital Wards
@ john 43
Re “who are the sort of people who work in nama”
Well, they would be the price fixers, valuators.
But eventually, they’ll need to dispose of the property assets. Like a big bear that’s cornered the market, they’ll try to run up the price of property and play dodgems with developers who won’t believe their asking price for sand when they know they’re trying to offload sand dunes.
They’ll probably include cronies they’ll get to work for them from the financial services and property services industry.
It helps if you are a member of FF and a croney already as the cronies try to play the market.
The problem with croneyism as the Egyptians found out is that it is a recipe for disaster. They persuaded the elite of their time that the smartest and brightest of the ruling elite could gain entry to eternity by offering themselves for human sacrifice.
So they had regular public executions of the best and the brightest. They eventually discontinued the practice when the Pharaoh’s belatedly realised the Sate was being run into the ground by the ‘gobshites’ who were left.
So NAMA is a big sand dune being run by gobshites! Get it?
I gather that of you add up our entire national debt including private/ corporate debt, we are now in the red to the tune of 2Trillion Euros. That works out at around 600K per worker or thereabouts.
I dunno about all the farting around with Anglo and NAMA and the rest of the banks, but I simply cannot see how we as a country can service the above as any attempt to service the above debt will cause more businesses to fail and taxes to fall further. In the meantime, the interest outstanding is ramping. This will drive our tax burden to cause more unemployment, which means more dole or welfare sustenance etc.
The nonsense we hear about a knowledge economy or more FDI etc will do nothing to close the 600K (and increasing) per worker gap. We cannot generate people out of nowhere unless we drag in a region of China and certainly the productivity per worker will not augmentable to achieve the necessary braking effect into our debt hole. Basically we are in a terminal default situation.
The only thing that’ll save us now is if we are cut from the sinker effect of the Euro. Us unilaterally leaving will cause ructions in the Euro Sector and major hassle on our own debt servicing and fund raising. A better option would be for Germany, France and a few others to leave us behind, but give us some preferred rights of access to the EU market. We stay in an old Euro while they run ahead with a new Euro. But all this is strategic waffle which many have picked through on this blog with greater depth of analysis.
Right now, we need to face up to the fact that we are about to default and big time. The bond holders know we are a lost cause – their reason for hanging in must be based on morbid curiousity on what will happen next . We are not a greece which just has a public debt crisis. We are a nation which has a natonal sovereignty worth zero – so what? No more oil is what (and any other exports you can think of ). We’ll be the greenest country on this planet overnight.
Exports??? I mean imports of course….and by that I mean imports to create exports.
@ Philip 11,
Could you itemise the 2 trillion?
Nama = about 80bn bank debt gets moved here
Banks = another approx €400 bn, of personal debt, mortgage debt, sub €5 million debt.
Sovereign debt =
etc
From the Times – Brian Lucey and Constantin Gurdgiev….
Problems in real economy dwarf those of bank sector – The Irish Times – Tue, Feb 03, 2009
I figure 2 years on, 2Trn is not that far off.
Quote:
Proposals circulating at the partnership talks contain at best only peripheral ideas on repairing the real (non-financial) side of our economy. Yet the magnitude of the debt problem facing these core sectors is simply staggering and dwarfs that of the banks.
According to the latest figures from the International Monetary Fund and the Bank for International Settlements, total gross indebtedness of Irish residents, that is the State, the banks and the non-financial personal and corporate sector, stood at a gargantuan €1,671 billion at the end of 2008. This is over eight times national income, and compares to a mere €504 billion at the end of 2002 and €970 billion at the end of 2005. The greater part of the rise in this debt arises not from the State – its debt merely doubled from €27 billion in the fourth quarter of 2005 to €51.2 billion by the third quarter of 2008 (or €77.1 billion if the monetary authority liabilities are added) – but from the private sector.
The debt owed by the private sector rose from €876 billion to €1,594 billion over the period. Much of this represents real borrowings by Irish people and companies. As of September 2008, €591.2 billion in debt securities was outstanding by non-financial domestic companies – up from €473.6 billion in December 2006. Overall foreign claims on the Irish economy stood at a gargantuan seven times our national income. In absolute terms, this mountain of debt is one-sixth of the USA’s and greater than that owed by Japan.
@Philip 11
Thanks for that info.
Re “The debt owed by the private sector rose from €876 billion to €1,594 billion over the period. Much of this represents real borrowings by Irish people and companies.”
There’s propaganda about to spread the blame, ‘we’re all in this together’ crap.
Just to make the point that a lot of this debt overhang comes from Joe Sucker who had to borrow to fork out for the Ponzi property prices he needed to put a roof over his/her head.
Banks foisted 100% mortgages on him and his peers driving up the property prices he was forced to borrow against usually covered only with two incomes.
Houses with furniture, accessories etc. and more debt. Debt was made cheap and easy to get and handed out by the banks like heroin.
A lot of that debt comes from smart small/medium businesses borrowing to survive in that environment of scammy quick sand provided by the banks, government and their developer cronies. This was the building services industry now gone.
Notice how the cronies are having their debt written down as we speak.
Not only debt write down but if the Star exclusive today is to be believed and this is not an April Fool, Fitzpatrick and Fingleton “The Department of Finance last night confirmed – following Freedom of Information requests by the Star – the appointment of ex-Anglo Irish bank chairman Sean Fitzpatrick and former Irish Nationwide Building Society CEO Michael Fingleton to the NAB (Nama Advisory Board).’
The present administration is responsible for the property bubble, now they’re embarked on a similar Ponzi scam to try to ignite an other one with NAMA.
We need to wise up and clean up. Lenihan is selling passenger tickets for the titanic and the FF td’s and Greens are still buying them.
We need to rid ourselves of NAMA, Anglo and the present administration.
Otherwise, we are a joke, ship of fools, travelling on the Titanic, some travelling first class.
My point is that I think the whole system is profoiundly damaged irrespective of who did what or when or whatever.
The elephant in the room is about to make its presence felt, For me, NAMA, Anglo and the rest of them are acts of fiction playing out as though the rest of the financial world was going to help out and all will be well in the next year or so.
I believe we need to adopt the mindset that we are bust and ignore anyone that denies it. The consequences of this fact have yet to be felt and will definately challenge the very existance of this sovereign state. When we recognise this, the only will there is a chance of recovery.
Re-phrase – When we recognise this, then only will there be a chance of recovery.
@Philip,
Yeah, the whole system is damaged and we have a global debt mountain crisis on top of that.
Question is how well we adapt to that reality.
There are good/bad choices out there. For sure we need a few Tom Creans to help with the navigation, ‘Unsung Hero’, Michael Smith. We are being led by leprechauns and zombies at the moment. Surely we can do better than this lot of cretins, get in before them, maybe warp them by time machine back to 1845, The Famine, and leave them there, its where they’re heading to take us:)
The 502 Billion in 2002 was too much, never mind the current figure.
I guess with us having a large absolute debt than Japan, that we can finally feel an appropriate level of self significance ??? We really have lost the plot. Intellectually, and then financially. One always follows the other.
Wow, rumblings in RTE…
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0401/aprilfools.html
Maybe we should make April Fools Day a public holiday in honour of NAMA
Which came first April Fools Day or Anglo Irish Bank ? …or NAMA ?
If anybody ever wants to know what happens when crack-up booms turn to bust, just look at Ireland and the Irish banks.
Oh, how could so many have been so utterly stupid, so confident, so proud, so naive, so easily led, so sure that the media was telling the truth ??
The Irish were too busy celebrating…to be doing any thinking….
When our grandchildren ask us what we did to stop all this nonsense at least we can tell them that we posted a message on David Mc Williams web page. They will be so proud of us. They might even go on tv and explain how we fought against the great bailout. We will be hailed as heros…..!!! Is anyone going to do anything about it. If I was to organise a march or protest would 50 sad Irish people turn up in the rain or could we mobilise a large group and demonstrate our feelings. Please post a reply
April fools joke from Sherry Fitzgerald via the Indo. We have bottomed out, quick, everyone run out and buy a gaff now !.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/prices-bottom-out-as-capitals-homes-match-nama-discount-2120393.html
Hilarious stuff. More nonsense from the “Estate Agent that you would recommend to a freind”.
This quote really is enjoyable.
{
Just under a fifth (19pc) of sellers sold their homes with plans to upgrade to a larger property, with 18pc selling in order to move to another county. A number of other “positive underlying demand trends” were further mentioned, such as a rise in viewing levels, fewer withdrawals and multiple bidding on individual properties.
}
Strange really, but 18% of the property being sold is by people who are leaving the country. Now, we don’t know if the banks are selling it because they have bolted, or if they are selling themselves, at a loss. But it is buried in there in the detail.
The phrase “positive underlying demand trends” is also hilarious. Here we go again back to Austin and Dan and their promise of increasing levels of demand, so as to drive euphoria in the property market.
It must also be noted that “multiple bidding on individual properties” is a new development. But holdon,the Estate Agent that you would recommend to your enemy never told us that things had got to the point where there were only single bidders on properties in the first place. This is a bit like the analogy that David mentions above….
In other words, more positive sounding rubbish from an organization that spent ten years spinning positive rubbish….
I wonder what Dr. Garrett Fitgerald (Former PM, former NUI Chancellor, Irish Times writer and thorn in the side of Leo Varadkar) makes of Mark Fitzgerald (of Sherry-Fitzgerald) and whether Professor John Fitzgerald (ESRI) agrees with either his brother or father?
It is like as if we have a talent shortage in this country to the extent that we put those spoofers in charge of key functions. Garrett Fitzgerald was a man of good intentions, but who was always more liable to rescue a cafe chain than an industrial facility or four in a city like Cork that he rarely visited.
Mark Fitzgerald is proof that once somebody becomes an Estate Agent, any previous family honour can be completely lost.
I wonder would John Fiztgerald be able to get a job in the free market that he keeps talking about if the quango that employs him was closed in the morning. Based on his track record, I doubt it. About as employable as Dan or Austin.
As for the ‘real estate’ boys and the politicos………
Upton Sinclair’s line still stands “impossible to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it!”
A lot of truth there in that phrase alright. It precisely captures the way those who set out to deceive operate. In fact it describers perfectly, not just real estate agents, but loads of other professions also.
The type of truth, that if you knew it in time, it allows you to be free you from a lifetime of debt/slavery.
Dilly,
The publication of the TSB / ESRI house price index has been suspended for 2 months now, as I highlighted a few weeks ago. Why is this happening? So fools out there will believe the estate agent propaganda that the property market has bottomed out.
You should not buy a house unless you really need to and have secure employment. By not being a mortgage holder, you have freedom of movement to follow work, whether its domestic or foreign.
More importantly, just remember, you cannot bring your house with you to the next life. You will spend your twilight years in a care home or hospice or hospital. If you have children, don’t worry about feeling obliged to leave them an inheritance, just provide them with the skills and education to make their own way in the world.
This at least gives some useful data on property price movements,
http://www.irishpropertywatch.com/viewLatestReports.php
Don’t worry folks….if we vote in favour of the Lisbon Treaty, we will be rescued, vote yes for jobs, and listen I hear in the background that Aer Lingus are selling cheap seats to the destination that has it all, Lisbon…….Just look at what the EU did for the Greeks…..nothing surer, you can be certain of that…..
The MaFFia are having their annual “President’s Dinner” in Cork on the 16th. Anyone want to go, it’s only €200 a ticket?
It will be interesting to see who attends. No doubt everyone important will be there to listen to the wise words of Biffo, explaining how everything will be ok, just trust him.
No doubt reassurances will be given to all of the attending developers / builders / auctioneers / traitors that the great scam NAMA has been passed. The Peasants have been fooled again.
All hail Biffo.
In my former life I made a couple of these function, incredibly boring, everyone watching everyone, had the feeling the whole time that there was blood on the plates…………
They used to have it in the Rochestown Inn, but moved to the Silver Springs “Moron” (Couldn’t resist, sorry).
The reason they moved is most likely due to the condition of the Rochestown Road, my poor car is battered daily driving through the trenches.
It was probably too farcical even for Biffo to attend an “All is Good” back slappingfest after navigating the pot holes beyond the Finger Post.
@ hibernian56
I know the road well, an absolute disgrace and something that illustrates the deceit.
Have a go off Forge Hill, Lehenaghmore down into Togher, I have been in developing countries and I have never in my life seen a worse road, thinking of filming it and sticking it on Youtube, it is that bad.
The council have a sign that says ‘beware uneven surface’ it should read ‘ Beware Moon landscape’!!!
I attended the Silver Springs function (undercover ;-) and listened to Bertie boast about new car sales and the 100,000 who didn’t want to work (“for whatever reason”), sick crowd.
Apart from the seriously alarming nature of the spin, lies and numbers surrounding “Ireland’s Chernobyl”, I am now very concerned by the constant refrain that certain x, y and z debt issues are “only a drop in the ocean”.
They all add up and we must not be distracted from chasing all embezzled debts regardless of their size in comparison to our overwhelming National debt.
Ooo La La :
Well Well Well I cannot believe it :
Seanie Fitz and Brian Lenihan are both Geminis – the two greatest Slave Traders in Irish History
David and Posters.
I think a step back right now maybe in order here’s why.
And this is a hypothetical before anyone goes of on one on me.
What if the following is taking place…..
Keep in mind the movie “THE STING”.
Seanie is the ROBERT REDFORD / PAUL NEWMAN character.
FF fundamentalists are the ROBERT SHAW character.
THey are all chancers and spivs and scammers, but, like in the STING some players possess more honor over the other crooks and knaves and thieves.
So, Seanie carries from childhood a long enduring contempt for the rotten culture of political cronyism holding its power over Ireland.
One day fate has its day and knocks on his door and he gets ANGLO and he see’s that through ANGLO he can run a horse and carriages through the festering rotten political cronyism holding sway over Irish life.
All he has to do is turn ANGLO into a POnzi property bubble machine inflater and let it loose.
Which he decides to do.
The political cronyism jumps on board for the riches and the ride misthinking whats actually going on, misthinking that seanie is one of them.
The markets get wind of seanies POnzi scam and short ANGLO and trigger the meltdown through irish banks.
THe political crony cartel / robert shaw has bet everything on the ANGLO race horse and now suddenly the reality hits home they’ve been set up.
They quickly rush in with the hair brained scheme of total guarantee cos its the only plan that’ll buy them time to try and undo the STING seanies carried out on them
The quickly move in with NAMA trying to undo the damage the ANGLO Seanie sting con has unleashed, which is exactly what seanie determined they would do and by rushing in with blanket guarantee and NAMA madness and the rest of it the political crony cartel destroy all its credibility and expose themselves for how far they are all willing to go to save their own skin and so thereby once and for all liquidating their hold on the citizens minds and turning themselves into a bunch of looking spivs and chancers for everyone to see from granny down to charlie.
Seanies has his way and the rot in Ireland is expose for all to see, at home, and internationally. THe rotten edifice hiding behind the lerprechaun smile and twinkle eye, finally, undone.
Could explain the scapegoating
In “The Sting” the crooked bungling cop finally bundles out the political crony cartel / robert shaw character for their own protection,
Sounds about right.
gemini constellation..2 lead stars…Castor and Pollux….And we can all devise rhymes for that as well. And Mars is currently floating among them as well right now….maybe there is something to this astrology. Seems Galbraith had a word about that as well.
Retraction – Seanie Fitz I had was the rugby player from NZ not of anglo …..does anyone know Seanie’s DOB ?
June 1948
Up to 20th June would be a Gemini too maybe it is really true then.
In the middle of our collective anguish, we really should all spare a moment for people like this
http://www.theonion.com/articles/rich-guy-feeling-left-out-of-recession,17181/
Hilarious link on that page towards the corruption that is the hall mark of the one party state that is City Hall in Chicago….it sounds eerily familiar.
Hey David, on some websites, there is the option to give a thumbs or recommend a comment by a poster, I think that would be a useful addition to any revamped website.
Maybe you could have a fundraising section ‘Your Country, Your Fund’
Only kidding :-)
The shakedown
http://www.joehiggins.eu/2010/04/pay-deal-its-a-shakedown-by-gangsters/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+joehiggins-eu+%28Joe+Higgins.eu%29
I have just come off the phone from a mates wife . Her husband and a good friend of mine has been let go . Well actually he was let go 4 weeks ago , But everyday he got up for work , put on his suit and headed off to wander around Dublin all day . Employment is so important to him that he could not tell his wife and 3 kids . It was not discovered until his payoff ran out and the bank account ran dry .
His GP has put him away for a ‘ rest ‘
He has no debt , bought before the boom and the wife is an expert with money . But this guy is middle class and just can’t handle being unemployed . He defines himself as being the ‘ breadwinner ‘ for his wife and children .This will destroy him . I can’t even offer him a job as he would see it as charity .
His wife is frantic and his kids are confused .
Meanwhile there are people in the Dail who have never experienced a days unemploymnet in their lives while still recieving massive salaries and god knows how many pensions throwing billions of Euro at bust and broken banks .
It is pure criminality that they are allowled to get away with this .
Alan42,
Been there, have the T-Shirt, done that, got the cap!
Tell your friend that this is a start into a new life, with all the positive things that come with it, and while he might not be able to see them right away, they are positive, and he as all the main reasons to be positive with his wife and his kids in his life.
He needs friends now, friends that help him understand that he is more than an employed or unemployed person, so much more in deed.
All the best
Georg
Laughingbear is right. Yer man needs to stop thinking about himself as an economic functionary.
Lose the battle, but never lose the lesson.
@ 26
Guy needs to grow up and see his real wealth, his wife and kids, the fact he can walk around, he’s got friends.
But people will often need professional help to help them cope and see beyond the job.
Access to further education, adult education, needs to be made easier. This should be made part of the general debate on unemployment and surviving the depression.
cbweb is 100% right. I can’t stand self pity. Your mate needs to grow up. He’s not the first and won’t be the last to face unemployment. Who does he think he’s fooling by pretending to be going to work? He’s lucky to have friends who can offer him employment. He’s effin stupid to be too proud to ask or accept any offer. Sounds like someone who will find solace in the bottle, the solution of the emotionally immature.
We all have sh1t to deal with in this life. I’ve been made redundant 3 times. You don’t take it personally, you pick yourself up and dust yourself down and get on with life. You learn who your real mates are and forget about those who look down on the jobless.
+1
Same here I was made redundant 3 times.
His life would be a whole lot worse if he didn’t have friends and a loving fmaily.
I was once asked by a business person to invest in a business that was in examinership . After 2 days I wanted to sack the manager, the financial controller and 25 staff out of 75 . A clean sweep . The 25 staff were dead wood and the manager and FC just had to go as it was they who had run the business into the ground . My investment was refused by the owner and 2 months later I picked up the good contracts and the important staff as the business went bust .
At the time the owner said that he could not accept my terms as these people had been with him a long time .
But what about the 50 remaining people ? Did they not want jobs and a future where everybody makes money ?
Its very simple . FF will not allow the banks to go under and there by offending the bond market . Because the bond market will have been burnt by FF . They will pull in the money and will demand a regime change ,
Russia defaulted in the 90′s and the entire country was driven to the brink but as soon as Putin took over it was all rosey again .
Ireland is a country in examership and FF are the managers who are still clinging to power and hoping against hope for a miracle . Unlike a bust company they have the taxpayer which they can just keep on borrowing against .
The reality is that they will cling to life while the real economy and my friend who find themselves in mental hospitals just sink into a hole that will take decades to recover from .
ALan42.
Why? Why did FF not want to offend the bond market, in your viewpoint?
Because the bond market would demand a regime change . After Russia defaulted they had no problem lending to Putin who replaced Yelsin .
Alan – you have no mercy on the 25 people that you did not take a liking to, but you think that the fact that somebody you know deserves to be kept in a job, because you know that individuals circumstances.
But you know, those 25 individuals, they probably have family to keep also. You seem to be very inconsistent with how you treat human beings. If you know them personally, then it is an entirely different issue, than if they are strangers. If this is the case then please be honest about it.
You do understand why we are less likely to sympathise over the events surrounding your mate.
And how did you know that the 25 were useless when you were only having a look in the door ? Is this not a bit rash. I remember a previous story where you sacked somebody because he seemed to have an idea how to run the company. You would have been better off financially if you listened to him. But instead you were not able to take it.
Alan – I am saying this because, from what I can see you are exhibiting exactly the features that amount to the worst aspects of the failed aspects of Irish management. Something is always somebody else’s fault. You or your mates are never responsible for things going wrong, and thoroughly dish out responsibility to others.
Your mate who purchased a house pre-boom, who is responsible for that ? Well, he is. Not any of the muppets in the Dail, or any of the real government in IBEC. The individual has choices, and his choice to buy a house at the top of a crack-up boom based on easy credit was his fault.
People made decisions like lemmings. They literally climbed over one another to pay these outlandish prices, and the banks fought each other to provide the easy credit. And now they are getting on the Joe Duffy Show and 98FM complaining that it is the government’s fault. I remember that the same people who bought all this overpriced junk were the very ones who voted for Bertie (Ahern), bought the IT property supplement, maxxed the credit cards, shopped til they dropped, bought new cars every year, and behaved totally recklessly. And they enjoyed it. They really did enjoy it. Personally, I always regarded it as empty living, and missing something. But the Irish bought the American dream of modern living and excess. And they would look down on anybody who didn’t take part, including you, me and lots of people on this board.
Now, let them eat humble pie, curse Ahern, give out about the crooked business interests that control many markets in this country, and the cliques who dish out the best jobs and suck the rest of us dry. Maybe now they might stop all that consumerist nonsense, and start behaving responsibly for a start. If they di it would fix a lot of corruption problem in this country for a start. Because these were the unthinking fools who made corruption a profitable business. For every one citizen who avoided the M50 toll, there were alwasy ten more who made sure that they paid up. Now they can do some waking up.
All of the 75 people lost their jobs in the end . Not because I am ruthless but because nobody else would invest either . Everybody knew that the place would go bust as the owner would listen to nobody .
I can be nice and invest my money and keep the staff and carry on as before . But guess what ? I will go bust .
All bloated businesses have excess staff and staff that do nothing as the owner is usually to weak or to nice to do anything about it .
If you want to turn around a failing business you have to cut out the parts that are causing it to fail .
Steady on Deco, Im guessing you haven’t owned a company or employed people when its your money at stake.
I mightn’t agree with Alan on everything but I understand where he is coming from.
I think the 2 paragraphs from Alan sum up the situation perfectly… Its very simple . FF will not allow ….
I agree with Alan on many issues. But I am giving a perspective that might be useful. Well, I suppose Alan will know after a few weeks thinking about it.
Does the fact that Europe, the bondholders and Moodys so far seem to be supporting NAMA fill people with a small degree of confidence that this may actually work??? What does Moodys have to gain from saying this is an ingenious plan?
They ( the bondholders ) have invested in what turns out to be a bust business . They are going to ge repaid in full , plus interest , The ratings agencies and the bondholders think this is great beause they are all winners .
Its a great investmnet . Its risky and therefore has a greater return . But no matter what you get your full return ? How do you become a lender to risky of Irish bonds ? Its a fantasic investment . High risk with full guaranteed returns .
Yes. It is the neo-Marxist approach to running an economy, first pioneered tby Gordon Brown (Crash Gordon).
Also, it is sometimes called Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. It is the culmination of forty years of on the stupidity curve for the clowns who are now running the Western Establishment. Everything is about lobbying and personal contact. There was a generational war within the clique and it resulted in the clique becomming more immature and disfunctional. And now we have the collapse of the West’s financial system. And a massive bailout for the rich, so as to pretend that everything is OK on the surface. The problem with anything that is fixed on the surface, is that it eventually tends to rot away anyway inside. A bit like the other Marxist society in the Soviet Empire.
@ 28,
No, it doesn’t. Moody’s have got it wrong soo many times in the past, also
http://bit.ly/v5804 been accused of abusive business practices, propping up Wall St before the collapse.
I’d say there’s some bondholder schenanigans in it for them
Who are the biggest gainers in the Irish property bubble collapse?The bondholders.
They gain through the financing of NAMA, through the financing of Ireland’s FF sovereign debt, through the financing of Ireland’s banksters.
They are in a win win situation as long as we borrowed in the past to finance our bubble, which we did. Now we borrow to pay back our loans! Great win, win there!
The Irish leprechauns represent the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for bondholders.
The answers to all our questions are in the designers of the Nama idea. Rothschilds, Merrill Lynch are the ones who came up with the idea and I have a feeling thay will be the main beneficiaries!!!
Anyone for a nice cold pint?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0401/1224267477657.html?via=mr
Good idea, I see an ad in the Examiner for the new Credit Review Office…
Can’t get credit? Just apply to them and they will ask the bank to reconsider, maybe. Oh and there’s a charge, €1 per €1,000, minimum fee €100, maximum fee €250.
Seriously, somebody tell me this is an April Fools. Who writes this priceless stuff…
John Redmond – Wexford, 1913. “I call on the young men of Ireland to sign up to the British Army, and to go to whereever the Firing line extends. This is your heroic duty – to defend small Catholic countries like Belgium”. (No mention was made of the fact that Belgium was an imperial power with a massive Royal Estate for the King of Belgium, called the Belgian Congo. At that time colonial empires were a ‘must have’ accessory for every western country with ambitions)
Bertie Ahern – ICTU Conference, 2006 “If you were to listen to all the naysayers…talking down the Irish economy….cribbin and moanin….you would go and hang yerself….this is not time for cribbin and moanin…this is a time to partake in the economy and to get on the property market”.
As a result of taking these two idiots seriously, young people in two generations had endured ruination. It could be said that Redmond was worse, because the ruination there was young men buried in Belgian mud, or returned home in a box, or with a wooden leg, or blind, or deaf, or shellshocked, or missing a limb. All very terminal conditions in an age when people worked with their hands for a lving and welfare was well nigh non-existent. (But Redmond himself stayed at home, and never got shot at).
If you believed either of these two, then you would have ruined your chance in life. The first would have you returned in a box, or with a wooden leg, or as an amputee. Redmond has a square named after him in Wexford. Honestly, I don’t know why – because he did nothing useful for anybody. As usual the leaders of one era pay homage to the leaders of another era, as if to perpetuate the myth that those in charge know what they are doing and never mistakes. Fact is, that if Redmond kept his stupid mouth shut thousands of young Irishmen would have had better lives. But, as is often the case, the truth of the situation is never explored where it represents a threat to authority.
Bertie Ahern’s advice would have been equally cathastrophic on your finances, but even these could be mended with time. And in a different age, cynicism and scepticism were in supply to tell you how to survive.
The lesson is, make your own mind up, and never believe the ‘leadership’ or the media. They both try to lead you to becomming their sucker.
Maybe we might rename Redmond Square into something more intelligent like “Peace Square”, “Staying out of a war improves your chances of survival” Square, “War is legalised murder” Square, or “Dissenter Square” (as a form of commending those with the good sense to stay out of it). Or maybe even “Do some thinking, before you open your stupid mouth” Square as a reminder to future politicians to not get carried away with nonsense.
But that would assume that we learned something from the experience. And that is something the leadership is always dead set against.
I think we badly need a square in a major town in Ireland to be called “Common Sense” Square. Because that is something that has been clearly lacking, in both this and in previous generations.
How about we take one of the ghost estates, and turn it into a new town called NAMA. Then we could twin it with the town that the new German beer comes from and stick up a sign saying “Fucking-NAMA”.
In the Bertie Ahern quote I left out the phrase “this is not a time for sittin on the fence” which should have been instead of the second “cribbin and moanen” phrase.
Now, there is an idea. We need a Square called the “Cribben en Moanen” Square, as a way of commending those who had the good sense to not follow their leaders, and a reminder to future generations, to always do your own individual analysis of what your betters have been telling you.
ALAN42 @27
‘Its very simple . FF will not allow the banks to go under and there by offending the bond market . Because the bond market will have been burnt by FF . They will pull in the money and will demand a regime change.’
Very close to the essence of the ANGLO / NAMA / FF storyline.
Sean Quinn was on Prime Time. He described the actions of the regulator as “one of the biggest errors in the history of corporate Ireland’.
I think that Sean Quinn should read up on the errors of corporate Ireland. But Corporate Ireland does their errors much bigger, much brasher, much more expensively, and much more outlandish than he imagines. Corporate Ireland is a place of great panache and style. And when Corporate Ireland does errors, Corporate Ireland really knows how to make an impact and make heads turn. Sean Quinn clearly underestimates Corporate Ireland’s ability to ‘do’ big errors.
He might also be in denial about the scale of the error that he made in trusting all the spin coming from Anglo Irish Bank, back in the days when Seanie Fitz’s photo was plastered all over the Irish Times Business Supplement on a regular basis. (Our advertising sponsors…)
Quinn can be expected to fight this. He is a Northerner, and northerners tend to fight any slight against them very seriously. And he has his people behind him. The shenannigins going on in Dublin, could mean that Quinn and his people feel as if they are done an injustice. The one thing Corporate Ireland does not want now is an open slagging match via the media.
Another point that I have just heard. As a result of the PMPA fall out thirty years ago, a general levy is placed on all insurance policies relating to certain categories. This was set at 2% for years. But for a long time the money was just recirculated into government finances, where it could be used for important projects like flying Johnny Cash to Cheltenham, storing e-voting machines, chauffering the young McUselesses to boarding school, or making up the cost of Ditherers make-up bill. Long past the time that the tax could be dropped, it was retained to keep up the largesse and the patronage, that exists in our so-called ‘low-tax economy’.
Then last December, this was raised to 3%, and it was done very quietly. A kind of a stealth tax increase that you would never have heard about. (well…they never reduce taxes, do they !!!). This could get very messy. And that is without bringing up the issue of ‘shortfalls’ in the Duopoly. In the meantime lets see what the auditors find in Cavan. Another investigation into corporate Ireland. There is something about the Irish concept of management, that things eventually always have to get investigated.
Oh, I forgot the link.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0401/quinn.html
Judge for yourselves. Maybe the solution to all of this is to put Sean Quinn and Seanie Fitz, into the boxing ring and let them do 15 rounds ??
Here’s one to ponder guys. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the law changed a few months ago which stated that you couldn’t go to jail for not paying debts. It was marketed as saving poorer people from being jailed for not paying Tv licence etc. But isn’t it a coincidence that it came about just before we found out about these scum owing millions!!! Think about that one for a moment or am I being too cynical??
As expected, popular opinion in Cavan is that everybody wants to stand buy the number 1 employer in the region. Yesterday there were 300 workers outside the Dail. Today the local GAA is behind the workforce in Quinn Insurance. (Maybe he is an advertising sponsor…).
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gaa-county-board-to-support-quinn-insurance-workers-452433.html
This could be a serious problem for FF local politicians. This could also poke awkward questions in the direction of other much much larger organizations that are getting bailed out in order to help them deal with their ‘liquidity shortfalls’…..
can of worms opened………….
Posters.
Seanie drove Anglo horse and carriages through the political dominion of FF over Ireland smashing it to pieces.
He exploded a POnzi pyramid nuclear device behind the backs of the power elites to a nuclear tonnage such that it drove FF to roll out an instant bank guarantee and NAMA and more and more and more taxpayers monies used.
Why..? whats the bomb seanie unleashed..?
Seanies decimation of Irelands reputation on the bond markets. Seanie knew the political cronies would go all out to save this and in the process out themselves to the whole of the country.
He knew that the only way to reverse the damage he unleashed with ANGLOS Ponzi scamarama would require such a bailout from the state that it would alienate the population from their political masters and once and for all break the hold political cronyism holds in Ireland.
How Apocryphal of Martin Mc Guinness and Jerry Adams and their cronies, for the low profile taken during this whole Financial Treason inflicted on the people of Ireland.
They have been subverting for centuries, a Regime whose transgressions are insignifiant when put in historical context, to that inflicted, in the past 20 years, by corrupt (Polititians,Government officials,, Bankers,Property Developers, and Clergymen).
When was the last time, it had been reported, by the Mainstream Media, that a Body, from any of the above, had been found along the Border.
Not that I am advocating violence in any way.
Went for the usual few pints last night treating the evening as Friday for obvious reasons!
A strange thing occurred.
For years the economy was one of the many items on the agenda in any conversation in our pub. Over the past 18 months it was obviously up at the top of the agenda.
Last night it hardly got a mention and this only occured when I raised the subject almost 3 hours into the evening.
I then mingled with a view to testing if it was just my own immediate group that was shunning the conversation. Not so. One drinker / thinker responed with “the weather?” when I opened with “That was a mad week?”
I then directly asked a number of other drinking groups whether they had any conversation on the economic crisis and all responded in the negative.
Has the Nation has just gone into Post Traumatic Shock or was this an isolated phenomenon?
People go to pubs because they want to get away from reality. They rarely go there, in order to be better able to deal with it. People are in a state of denial about the fact that they were all running around celebrating and backslapping for years…..and now that is all proven to be nonsense. In fact it was the problem. Nobody took any notice of the rip-off in progress, and the fact that IBEC were running the country.
It is hard for people to come to recognize that their behaviour and their compliance was a key part of the problem. For every ANIB deal made in the last ten years, there were thousands that made Anglo a paying proposition with their love of lifestyle, and their own optimistic financing model. They listened to the roadcaster broadcasting Larry Just a minute quiz at the retail centre that had just opened, and supported ‘our advertising sponsors’. They were the heroes of the Celtic Binge. To any objective observer, there were a herd of lemmings, or as I heard once described ‘busy fools’. Anglo was not the only overleveraged entity in Ireland with a six month time horizon. Like the TulipMania in The Netherlands, the entire society seems to have lost the plot. Thousands of individuals took on the Anglo model of financiing, and they defined the trends and the fashion of the era. And they were praised by the media. And they relished the praise. ANIB is not a once off in the intellectual realm of Irish society. For ten years ANIB was the pinnacle, of Irish modernity. Though nobody accepts it now. In fact we have people trying to clean themselves of Anglo, as if they could be free of the superficial problem, and continue the irresponsibility.
The people that you met are dumbfounded because their existing collection of intellectual tools is not sufficient to dealing with the problem. Their entire assumption set has been shown to be a load of nonsense. And they are not facing up to it. This sort of blanking out will make sure that nothing is learned from this, so that IBEC can continue running the country, and business can continue as normal. Don’t mock your fellow citizens, they are good servants of the IBEC BaNAMA Republic. The more they drink the less trouble they will be for the real power in Ireland, the IBEC corporate clique. Those obedient servants of the IBEC republic are within a whisker of realising that the whole thing was a con job. That must not be allowed to happen. What and see all the diversions that are provided to make sure that it will not happen.
@Deco
I agreed 110%.
I’m glad you’re pointing out that the collective mindlessness of the Irish pub-going public is the real root cause of Ireland’s systemic problems. If people are absolutely intolerant of the lack of regulations, there’ll be regulations (look at drink driving crackdowns). If people understand how money enters and leaves circulation, they won’t borrow like lemmings high on cocaine thinking ‘I can fly’! If grown men weren’t so puerile and competitive, they wouldn’t squander so much money on brand-new German luxury cars. If women weren’t the same, they wouldn’t squander on handbags and so on.
The problem – and the solution – lies in the collective habits and behaviours and attitudes of the Irish people. These set the standards for institutions and politicians, who know about these standards and attitudes through focus group studies, so they know what they can get away with, and what they can’t.
We are the ones we’ve been waiting for :)
So do I deco.
The people of this nation are in debt and is trying to ‘keep up appearances’. I can talk openly and objective on this subject because I have no debt so it’s not gnawing at me.
They are afraid that ‘all will be revealed’ – no, not the secrets of Anglo’s loan book, but the fact that yes indeed, they are going to fail on their mortgage and/or car loan.
Wall Street Journal, Thursday – Monday, April 1 -5, p4
Contrary to Lenihan’s propaganda that a wind down of ‘systematically important banks’ would cause catastrophe for Ireland, its actually being proposed as a solution response to banking crises by both German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schauble and his French counterpart, Christine Lagarde in their talks Wednesday in Berlin.
“The French and German governments said they want to be able to intervene early if a bank is tottering and to wind down systematically important banks, including cross border ones. The aim is to “impose market discipline” and protect public funds.”
This appears to me to be a reasonable response especially having regard to the prospect of winding down crazy elephant banks like Anglo without the comfort of salvation through ripping off taxpayers!
Schauble and Lagarde also plan an annual levy for banks’ balance sheets to protect banks in future crises.
Lenihan propaganda is to pour scorn on those who ‘are talking up’ our inability to pay the escalating costs of saving Anglo, currently €20bn and climbing as we speak.
Lenihan propaganda is that its impossible to contemplate a wind down. More lies given this is being proposed as a 2 prong response by his counterparts in France and Germany.
Lenihan ‘go it alone’ policy of running the Anglo digout as his own FF banker croney and DoF croney show, with the crazy guarantee for Anglo, amounts to treason perpetrated by FF against Irish taxpayers.
FF continues the propaganda of ‘costing less to keep Anglo alive than to wind it down’ without publishing alongside the costs of saving Anglo, the approximated costs of winding Anglo down in the different scenarios available for this, such as doing this immediately, short term, medium term, what bond
obligations, debtors need to be honoured.
Compared to his French and German counterparts Lagarde and Schauble, Lenihan is a leprechaun intent on ripping off bigtime Irish taxpayers, ripping our economy apart with Ponzi, big Pyramid of Sand, NAMA.
His proposals for Anglo are currently under investigation, as is Anglo, by Europe.
If both Anglo and NAMA get the clean bill of health from Europe, though I’ve enthusiastically always given the EU project my support, it will switch me from being a supporter of EU, to one who realises the Age of Big Brother is closer to us than we think.
Bit of a Hobson’s choice really, Big Brother or Local Rip Off of taxpayers by the NAMA Ponzi, pyramid Anglo scam. Whether you regard FF as totally incompetent, or totally corrupt, as regards their response to the banking crisis, its take your pick.
I pick ‘incompetent’. The night of the guarantee should have been the time the phone to Lagarde and Schauble was picked up. The solo run that began at that moment has us in the mess we are in now.
Anyone have any thoughts on this one – Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the law changed a few months ago which stated that you couldn’t go to jail for not paying debts. It was marketed as saving poorer people from being jailed for not paying Tv licence etc. But isn’t it a coincidence that it came about just before we found out about these scum owing millions!!!
And I say this one to all of you. We ALL know that Nama is simply a transfer of public money to the elite scum, and we all know that the whole country is being conned. So…. if their are at least 200 fairly clued in bloggers on this site who can see through the bull, and surely we have at least 10 like-minded friends, then why can’t we start with that 2000 strong dissenters and campaign outside the NTMA, Anglo, or the Dail, and stop this charade! Because what we seem to be forgetting is that these SCUM actually have to do what the people want as the actually work for us. I know it sounds strange but they really are supposed to work for US!!!
@ s1lverbullet
Good Question, the legalities of the whole banking inquiry very interesting as well. Can’t they plead because there’s a Garda investigation, its sub judice, so no answers need to be given.
So what’s the level of probity there? I got the impression from Lenihan the focus won’t be on individuals at all, but will be more of an institutional broad scope …..shredding machines as we speak
Notice above Schauble and Lagarde do not appear to be beguiled by Lenihan’s NAMA plan.
They wouldn’t be so crazy as to propose that Frankenstein NAMA/Anglo experiment for any other modern European state!
But Lenihan’s propaganda tells us the lie that that support is there! If so,
why is Lenihan’s toxic approach not being copied by other member states?
“wind down systemically important banks”….ANIB, INBS, and EBS are not of any systemic importance….unless the system is the system of cronyism and patronage…
It sounds to me as if they are preparing for problems. I reckon there are a lot of statistics in Spanish banking that do not add up, and which are completely ignored by the EU commision and the media.
What is the Spanish for “Too Big too fail ?”….
‘wind down’ of Anglo has many similarities to the WMD (weapons of mass destruction) Bush/Cheney arguments used to Drumm up support to attack Iraq…
Met Eireann have stated that there will be heavy rainfall in the SouthWest this weekend. I just hope that the authorities have their act together. Last years disaster in Cork should not be repeated a second time. It will bad on Sunday night, and on Monday Afternoon. There will be a low staffing level in the ESB, and in the local authorities. And the ‘leadership’ will probably be not sober enough to deal with any crisis.
Did we learn any lessons from the previous disaster ???? (Or were more people upset about a disruption to their TV viewing in June ??).
http://www.met.ie/forecasts/
Folks, those with nothing to do, might want to prepare tomorrow morning, as it will be the best chance all weekend.
Let’s see how well we are prepared for this one. No excuses concerning “we did not see it coming”.
Here is the link to a recording of Joe Higgins speech at the protest at ANIB yesterday:
http://qik.com/video/5790594
Echoes what has been said on this forum.
Adh mor ort se Luan freisin.
PMPA =PROFESSIONAL MICKEY PULLERS ASSOCIATION.AN APT DESCRIPTION FOR THE EINSTEINS’ THAT COMPRISE IRELAND’S BUSINESS BRAINS.
Anyone reading rating agency Moodys’ views about NAMA would conclude that many of the semi-hysterical comments on this blog were seriously misplaced.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/namas-836450bn-bill-may-never-arrive-for-taxpayers-2122240.html
Could it be that we will all wake up on Easter Sunday morning and realise that we just had a night-mare and the future for Ireland actually looks quite rosy?
Malcolm McClure.
This article at this link is a great read. Here is a sample,
‘THE taxpayer need not repay the €50bn in bonds NAMA will issue to take over bank property loans, because the banks will be happy to keep them for ever,.’
Lets look at this sentence.
I tell you what Malcolm, I will place you a wager.
I bet you the following, the banks will run to the ECB the day after they receive the bonds for the toxic trash the banks are passing over to the taxpayers domain.
And, it is the passing over of the toxic trash made by greedy banksters and corny networks and dodgy accounting which i suspect has invoked such ire and remonstrating.
and in the end it is the banking system and the regulator who the responsibility falls on for the toxic trash been there in the first place.
They practiced their trade resulting in the toxic mess.
Banking is a service like electricity and ESB are not providing the electricity electrocuting customers with shoddy business practices. If they happened to do so they would be quickly shut down and thrown in jail.
@Malcolm 40
“This does not create re-financing risk for the Government — it is unlikely that banks will ever force the Government to repay them,” Mr Abercromby said.”
Notice the word ‘unlikely’. Do you believe a lender with this waffle. Moody’s are a bit like the AIB bankers who assured us all our banks were well funded and capitalised!
Whether the principal gets repaid or not is academic, the real cost is the ‘on the hook’ financing on an annual basis of Ireland’s debt through interest payments.
That’s what’s killing Greece at the moment, the 6% on bonds they got to pay on any refinancing they attempt. Those interest payments will have to be met and are eating up any efforts they are making to cutback public services, pay cuts, tax rises.
Re “There could still be some cost to the taxpayer, if NAMA’s operations do not generate enough income to cover the payments to the banks and its own costs.”
Pretty much waffle here again. Sure the whole costly NAMA/Anglo pyramid is being built by FF on the edifice of a return to growth, another property bubble, higher property prices and a profit for NAMA.
You do know the boys got it wrong again thinking the transfer haircut would be about 28% not the 50% haircut that was given. So we ended up having to raise the bailout cost by €10 billion.
Our economy is being bet on NAMA, our Grand National nag, saddled with the extra burden of offloading the pyramid of sand, keeping up artificially inflated property prices, that’s before we get to the starting post.
What Moody’s in your link say about Ireland’s rating is priceless:
“Rating
But their permanent status helps explain why Moody’s think Ireland could remain in the ‘double-A’ rating category, even though total national debt will be 115pc of output (GDP) by the end of this year when the NAMA bonds are included (see chart).”
Wow, they have a crappy chart, what fun? OK, we might be able to hold onto double A rating, only because international bond holders will not foreclose on us, but keep accepting our lose/lose annual cost of financing our external debt.
“As the Government’s debt trajectory has now become clearer, Moody’s is closer to determining at what level in the Aa rating range Ireland’s ratings are likely to settle,” the agency said.
What waffle is that, they won’t even predict our A rating staying at double A.
But the following should give us most concern:
“Moody’s repeated its view that the big threat to Ireland’s financial position is not the state of the banks but the future performance of the economy.
“Overall, we view this (NAMA) as a balancing act, the success of which — including its impact on the Government’s credit rating — depends essentially on an early revival of the Irish economy,” Mr Hornung said.”
As we agreed before to chat on this Paddy’s Day, 2015, we’ll have a better picture if the trajectory the Government are following will lead to economic recovery.
That Nama is pure folly is based not on hysteria but objective reasoning supported by facts.
The NAMA palace of dreams, pyramid of sand, is the legacy of those who got us into the mess. It doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny. Those who built it don’t want close scrutiny. They ask for suspension of logic and disbelief, go figure!
There again those who try to place it under close scrutiny have to expect that they will be smeared by allegations of semi-hysteria.
This has been the similar response of Bertie’s stupid ‘suicide’ remarks to those who told others what they saw under the hood.
When they were not supposed to be looking there in the first place.
I guess a high level of discourse is required from all sides on this.
Looking under the hood is required whatever side you are on. Appreciate the sharing of good information on this blog, hope it continues.
cbweb says “They ask for suspension of logic and disbelief, go figure!”
The willing suspension of disbelief is the essence of any bubble and indeed, of any religion. Paper money itself has always depended on the suspension of disbelief, as have advertising campaigns: “Buy a Beemer and become a Player, etc. etc.” It is a necessary component of the human psyche, otherwise more people would follow Bertie’s (presumably tongue in cheek) advice.
If Moodys believes in Ireland, who are we to disagree? The doubting Thomases will come out after Easter and demand to poke their fingers in Moodys’ spear wounds, but come Pentecost the Holy Spirit will descend on the banks. Governments will start speaking in tongues and all the peoples of the world will listen in fear.
Cannot disagree with you there Malcolm.
The problem is Moody’s do not say they believe in Ireland’s economic recovery through NAMA or any other method.
They are carefully circumspect in their waffle.
Read carefully what they say, it it predicated on the logic of ‘If’, ‘And ‘ and ‘But’. Its a statement of conditionality.
So what are the conditions for their hypothetical forecast?
This is the important bit:
““Overall, we view this (NAMA) as a balancing act, the success of which — including its impact on the Government’s credit rating — depends essentially on an early revival of the Irish economy,” Mr Hornung said.”
All they are saying is that if we get economic recovery, NAMA will work.
They are not saying NAMA “is” going to work.
I believe NAMA is a recipe for economic ruin, period. We are into a period of sad depression and NAMA/Anglo bailout is an anchor thrown to an economy floundering in quicksand, that will do long term damage to Ireland Inc and not lead to recovery.
Its a bailout for FF, developers, FF, banksters, its not a bailout for taxpayers or Ireland’s economy.
What you have there quoted from ‘authoritative source’ is a piece of FF propaganda. ‘Moody’s believes in Ireland’ is a piece of false propaganda and a falsification of the facts in the article and typical of the propaganda coming from FF.
All I can say is, to each his own, and I don’t swallow that kind of waffle and I’m glad I don’t. Feel free to swallow it yourself though:)
We’ll see who’s proved right in a couple of years. I’ll buy you a pint and discuss it then with you.
Have a great Easter.
cbweb.
Moodys is a scamarama chess piece, absolutely agree with you on that and most other points.
Malcolm i reckon is hinting at the concept of paper money itself and the fact that its mere use in of itself is fraudulent anyway and only works based on ‘suspension of disbelieve ‘ and so by design nobody ought to be surprised in anyway by the scamarama going to come out of a fiat based money system.
Its a given that its going to happen considering how it is the over all banking system is designed in the favor of a cabal of interests and their geo political think tanks and plans for the future.
Which in NAMA s case is preserving the confidence in the Euro which evidently is been squared up for some type of world currency.
..which I may add is ‘insider’ info the insiders in Ireland must have known on and used it to leverage their scamarama bank transfers with.
Wills: Its not just paper money. Most of the money in circulation doesn’t exist except as a collection of electrons inhabiting wires and machine all around the world. They occasionally see the light of day when they appear on a computer screen somewhere. people used to work for an honest day’s pay, and got it in cash. Now they work for credit in their bank statement and pay most of their bills with cards or direct debits. The barber and the pubs are the only places they get to flash the folding stuff. Coins are just things that make holes in your pockets and preserve the illusion that there’s real money behind all this.
There isn’t, so I don’t know why everybody is so hung up about some totally hypothetical reality that our grandchildren will have to deal with.
Malcolm, again, I couldn’t agree with you more on that point too. Every word I agree on in this comment.
If I may, I will offer a potential explanation on the irrationalism, but I do not see the semi hysteria like you do I see inner struggling with trying to come to grips with a dense subject matter.
The irrationalism is down to the ‘lack of information’ on the real story on the ground with the ANGLO / FF / ECB / central banking mechanics in motion and you’ve gone some way there in shedding light on it. You ought to post – comment more malcolm.
Or maybe Moody’s might have been part of the problem. I can’t understand how a private company with seriously vested interests can decide how much a COUNTRY pays for credit. Me smells corruption Malcolm
S1lverbullet: In keeping with the Easter motif, consider the banks as the Pharisees and the government as the Saducees. They normally hated each other but put their heads together to crucify the irish people.
Moodys, on the other hand, is a still, small, voice crying in the wilderness.
The End of the Republic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8LPNRI_6T8
@G,
thkx, cool url, flat on my back recovering from very mild version of vomiting bug, my son gave me yesterday from a bigger version.
Its good therapy along with another more technical video, I’m recovering, already on toast:)
Hope you all got your applications in to NAMA Advisory Board, Fingleton and Seanie may need extra help:) running that complex org:)
@ cbweb – given you are recovering, good time to check this out…….
Celente’s predictions for 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdBbTZdsQ5o
Posters.
Let s look at NAMA mechanism.
NAMA processes toxic loans gov takes from banks in a swap with gov bonds.
The banks run to ECB and swap bonds for freshly minted euros.
ECB sits on Irish gov bonds.
Now, the article in the Irish Independent makes sense. The ECB keeps the Irish bonds NAMA bonds forever and ever and ever.
THe banks and the gov and the developers and everyone else involved in the POnzi property bubble boomtimes and its mop up, all benefit.
The banks get a juggernaut of freshly minted cash out of thin air from ECB, reward for inflating a property bubble and stringing up a tranche og young people into high debt keeping em occupied for years to come running around in a hamsters wheel.
The gov get their hands on a huge property portfolio for years to come giving the gov control over the property market and rebooting political power and influence for years to come.
The ECB get great interest returns from the Irish taxpayer in perpetuity.
Nice deal for the ruling classes and ‘insiders’ and rotten deal for the taxpayer who been outside of the insider loop remains in the dark on the dennis the menace money laundering scamarama going on with the bond issuance and money printing and those in the loop funnel the paper money right into their bank accounts.
Again, i reckon, its probably this which is riling people up no end.
Eireannach @17, Plus plus one.
Does the IMF support of NAMA help allay anyone’s fears that this might posibbly work??
@ 44
Nope, support for the transfer of wealth from taxpayers to the banksters and NAMA cronies doesn’t cut it with me.
Famously IMF supported Cavallo in the ruination of Argentina.
NAMA in their eyes brings stability if the populace can stomach it, which apparently they can.
They don’t care about taxpayers, they’ll leave the nasty business of dealing with taxpayers to the government.
With taxpayers on tap now for the bonds, why should they care? Its time to reel in support of taxpayers for the bitter pill:)
These bonds ensure a steady income for banks for years to come as nama take care of toxic debts and performing loans over €5 million. Will the people of Ireland get well serviced by the banks in return? €5 million also seems a relatively small figure especially if it is a performing loan, does this mean you can’t get a loan over €5 million any more? How will this affect our image abroad? It shows that nama are the new banking brains doing the bank’s dirty work, and the banks get a guaranteed income (from us)!
NO.
IMF are an appendage of the world central banking system which in essence rigs free market capitalism on an ongoing basis serving the needs of the super rich above all else.
Dead right Will. 60% of the countries that have been “helped” by the IMF have ended up in a far worse condition. Last year Chavez gave the Argentinians 1 billion to get free from IMF debt
A jobless recovery, the ultimate oxymoron?
@ G man 41
Celente for me a bit of a paranoid nutball. whereas your url http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEnfZjqMSy0
really enjoyed that, after an episode of The Wire and earlier today ‘Sunspots’ always had my suspicions re their control over the weather, much better, as far as I can tell:)
Thx, have a good Easter y’all
Good wishes on feeling better tomorrow cbweb.