February 24, 2010

It's time to shout 'stop' - NAMA is grand larceny

Posted in Banks · 432 comments ·

The land has reverted to the price you’d get from a farmer for putting a donkey out to graze on it

For the past year, this column has been warning of a “triple lock” in the Irish banking system, which would financially incarcerate the Irish people for a generation.

The triple lock would solder the people to the banking system in a suffocating embrace forcing us to borrow from tomorrow to pay for yesterday and, in the process, destroy the opportunities of today.

Now with the Government upping its stake in Bank of Ireland, this prediction — regretfully — is coming to pass. The worst thing is that it doesn’t have to be like this. The latest news that some development land in Athlone valued in the boom at €31m is now worth only €600,000 has truly terrifying implications for all of us, because it means NAMA will bankrupt us, and the triple lock implies that we can’t sever the fortunes of the people from the fortunes of the bank.

Let’s just recap what I mean by the triple lock. The first lock was the bank guarantee, the second lock was NAMA and the third lock was the “forced” nationalisation of the banks. It is important to remember one overriding fact: we do not need Bank of Ireland or AIB. This truism needs to sink in. There is nothing sacrosanct about either, nor is there anything sacrosanct about the debts these banks have run up. These debts have nothing to do with us.

Yes, we need a banking system or a couple of functioning banks, but they don’t have to be AIB or Bank of Ireland as constituted at present.

At this stage, the Government should be trying to give the banks away for free to a large European bank. This is what you would do if a sweetshop were in trouble and banks are no different. Any new owner, taking the opportunity of having cash, not debt, in a downturn, will do a deal with the creditors. This is how normal bankruptcies work.

What big bank wouldn’t want to take on the Irish deposit base of €175bn, the branch network and the banking possibilities of a European country? The new owners would do a deal with the old creditors. The way this is done in the real world is that the creditors are told the game is up, there is no cash left in the kitty, but if they are prepared to take stock of the new parent bank, they can get something out of their Irish misadventure. Obviously the new owners of Bank of Ireland would roast the old creditors, but, hey, that’s capitalism!

The only way new credit will emerge in Ireland is if there is a new banking balance sheet. And the only way a new banking balance sheet will emerge is if the big banks are given away to a healthy bank for free and the old creditors told where to go — to the back of the queue.

The problem for us in Ireland is that the people who are drafting our laws locking us to the banks do not understand this, because they are not capitalists; they are legalistic functionaries, civil servants and bankers trying to hold on to their jobs. In short, they are consummate insiders with their interests vested in the old status quo who can’t see that the old status quo is the problem.

As a result, these insiders are all too happy to give the outsiders (the people) the bill without any thought of how we are going to raise this money. This is why the Finance Minister can come on radio and talk blithely of billions here and there without appearing to consider just how much money this is and how much we have to produce to earn these sums he is tossing about.

Listening to politicians and bankers/brokers using these figures is like witnessing demented generals in the last stages of a war moving imaginary armies on a map — battalions that have long been vanquished.

About 18 months ago, the ‘guarantee’ was constructed to avoid this endgame. The logic of the guarantee was to buy time to get the banks to sort out their own mess. Implicit was the notion that the banks were to look to the market — not the State — for capital and, if there were to be a ‘bad bank’, the banks (not the taxpayer) would have to fund it from their own resources.

On the night the guarantee was first mooted, the ‘bad bank’ was touched on too. The bad bank would be a skip into which we threw our withered land portfolio. The State would raise the money, but the banks would pay for this out of their profits and the taxpayer was not to be touched.

Unfortunately, and not surprisingly given the way our country runs, the banking ‘insiders’ hijacked these ideas last year and have left us with the pathetic situation we are in where they get away with it and give us the bill.

To see how pathetic the reality is, let’s go back to the site in Athlone and extrapolate. The value of this land has fallen by 98pc from €31m to €600,000. So, after all the hype about Ireland and its new wealth, the price of the land has reverted to the price you’d get from a farmer for putting a donkey out to graze on it.

In the Commercial Court, Mr Justice Peter Kelly — who is emerging as a hero in all this — said that his original presumption (from his experience in the Commercial Court in the past year) that land prices had fallen by 70-80pc was now put “in a cocked hat”. So he thinks 70-80pc falls in land prices are too optimistic.

So if we look at the breakdown of NAMA’s ‘assets’ and see what this new reality means for the banks and us, we see that there will be €51.5bn of land and development assets and “associated loans” transferred. If we apply Mr Justice Kelly’s discount based on what he has seen so far, we are looking at a hole of possibly €40bn, where we will borrow €51.5bn from the ECB, for assets worth a little over €10bn.

Obviously there will be some assets that will be worth more. In addition, some of the assets that are in the UK or the US will recover reasonably quickly, but given that the lion’s share are in Ireland, a massive discount should be expected.

Whatever the gap, someone has to plug it and, although the NAMA plan is over 10 years, no one in their right mind believes that development land in Athlone will ever again be worth €31m — nor should it be.

In fact, permanently cheap land should be the aim in order to give us a comparative advantage. But permanently cheap land would impoverish the landlords and their financial backers — the very people who have got us into this mess and the very people NAMA is devised to rescue. So someone has to pay for the bailout.

According to the triple lock system devised by the Government, we the people — the outsiders — will plug this gap. This is grand larceny overseen by the insiders. Someone has to shout “stop”!

  1. Alan42

    I don’t think that the government will last long enough for the NAMA steamroller to get started .

    • Deco

      Tomorrow….The SR Technics workers will bring a protest to D2 and Coughlan will be in the Dail. They will be calling for her resignation on Kildare Street…..another dodgy minister that needs to get out of the way and stop wasting everybody’s time.

  2. Good Morning WILLS :

    David has made a good point –

    ‘forcing us to borrow from tomorrow to pay for yesterday and, in the process, destroy the opportunities of today.’

    Banking is about Time .We are

    searching for the Code for the Time

    to Live NOW from the OLD Time we

    did live to make a NEW Time for


    In Chinese this is called Da Wu Yu Code .

  3. Everyone – please, please, please spread this article by David. The time is ripe with resignations etc.
    Here’s a short URL for it: http://bit.ly/c8Fu9N
    Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Email, MySpace, Bebo, Text – tell everyone you know to read this posting. It’s one of David’s most accessible to Joe Public.
    Do it now!

  4. Cartoon :

    I was reminded about a tax settlement I had to agree with CAB for a client back in 1998 .In part of the settlement I had to explain how could many horses graze on what would be termed a building site .Believe it or not it is possible .The answer is you graze Batty Horses . Apparently they live anywhere .It took a lot of convincing and learning curve and it was accepted.

  5. mishco

    Very clear article. Thanks David.

    We had the “Donkey Indicator of Consumption” a while back.
    But now I guess we have a new indicator: the Donkey Indicator of Deflation or DID (as in they did us good and proper).

  6. Lord Fraud

    YCNMIU – Turkeys should not vote for Christmas – The cabal certainly never will, while the rest of us seem to do little else.

  7. To STOP the bankers;
    We probably need to stop the Gov.

  8. Great article, great analogy

    “Listening to politicians and bankers/brokers using these figures is like witnessing demented generals in the last stages of a war moving imaginary armies on a map – battalions that have long been vanquished”

    The game is up with NAMA, its evaluation day is constantly put back to avoid more time, lies upon which NAMA has been predicated are already being exposed through the great services of Justice Kelly and other lone voices such as those of D.

    The sooner we dump NAMA and FF into the same skip, the sooner we can begin the task of a major cleanup.

    Its time we challenged those in favour of NAMA to come out now and put on record their name and reputation behind a defence of NAMA.

    As the current crop of revised evaluations eg Athlone come out, you can almost hear the silent footsteps of the backers of NAMA running away to hide from responsibility/accountability.

  9. The Great Correction (a la Great Depression – possible even more momentus than this according to Alan Greenspan).

    That is what the world is going through at the moment – and Ireland in particular has a massive readjustment before finding its equilibrium.

    Does David not recognise this?

    Leaving the Euro is cuckoo – why are Iceland trying to get in?

    It is possible to deflate within the Euro – Germany has done so over the last 10 years; having originally entered at the top end of the range. A solution being championed at the moment for Greece is that they knock 10% off everything – in effect devaluing by 10%. Ireland is embarking on this.

    NAMA allows the time for the Great Correction and the Government is to some extent hedging with its increasing ownership in the main banks. (there is distinction between banks at this stage – some being even more bad than others)

    Cuckoo to have foreign ownership of Irish banks – much better to looking to have individual Irish people owning shares in the banks – as the Conservatives are now proposing in Britain. Foreigners tend to leave en masse in times of crisis.

    Insiders: Yes if you work in a bank you are by definition an insider…..

    Why is the media not focussing on what to do; rather than what has been done. Why is the subject of regulation never covered???

    Promote Ireland as a good place to live and do business in – problem solved.

    For those of you interested I sowed garlic bulbs yesterday – hopefully to catch some late winter frosts. Who knows what that will ward off.


    • Deco

      Strange thing about Iceland is that Iceland had it’s deflation, it had it’s banking bust, and it even got label part of Gordon Brown’s list of terrorist states……
      But Iceland has employment, it has repriced itself and is getting out of this mess. Iceland does not need the EU. Iceland is on the mend because the delusions are over.

      Large sections of the Irish population are still living in a delusionary mindset. Just look at the people protesting over a soccer handball, the same day Cork city centre was under five feet of water. A lot of people in this country need to switch off the television and get a reality check !!!

      • Why then are Iceland hell bent in wanting to join both EU and Euro? If it was mending then surely it would stay outside?

        • MT25

          Not hell bent at all. Population is split more or less 50/50.

        • Deco

          Actually the current government are dead set on joining the EU, and paying back every penny to the bond holders in the UK, and the Eurozone. Interestingly enough a large contingent of Icelanders have signed a petition against the repayment. And EU membership is by now means a certainty. The danger as far as the Icelandic government is concerned is that Iceland will mend sufficiently in a space of time, while the EU deals with the PIGS problem that is getting worse. In such an event the dynamics would make Iceland aggreeing to joining the EU impossible. And bear in mind that Spain is making steady progress towards tanking the Eurozone. So the government has to act very fast. If the Icelandic politicians are successful, they will drag Iceland through two meltdowns. One from both sides of the Icelandic Parlaiment. That’s political incompetence for you.

          • G

            @ Deco would have to agree with this assessment………..Iceland is far from out the woods, shaping up to be Easter Island part II, maybe historians and anthropologists will arrive on the island, find evidence of a serious fire, a number of ‘safes’ and point to evidence of some cataclysmic event which led to the destruction of a civilisation, with it tied in some shape or form to the ‘safes’, monolithic, smooth surface structures (see Kubrick’s 2001)………..

            Iceland is facing meltdown (pardon the pun), no way they can pay back the money due or keep the country going without the people rising up………it came close once, could happen again……………

          • From Tim in the last post;
            Might have been missed by some so here’s the ex-IMF man calling it how it’s going to be-


        • LiamA

          Simples – they want access to cheap, secure ECB money and will sacrifice currency independence to get it because they are struggling to refinance their debt mountain. They would, of course, be joining at their allready-deflated exchange rate…

    • LiamA

      Phil: Germany did not deflate – it allowed the rest of the zone to out-inflate it: much earier, but not an option for us. Deflation by fiscal & economic force, rather than by currency devaluation is difficult and destructive.Nominal wages have to be forced down (we have done some of this but private sector wages remain stubborn and public sector hard to push through.

      While some prices are falling, there is substantial evidence of ‘stickiness’ in core consumer good such as food; while there are various reasons for this, here is a simple one: if IrishRetail Ltd import rice from China Inc @ €100 and sells it at €200, and if Ireland, not China, is seeking to deflate, the price cut will have to come from IrishRetail’s €100. With profits already eroded by falls in sales, and knowing that people will buy rice anyway, IrishRetail will resist cutting that €100, so not deflation.

      Even worse, if your national economy is deflating but your national (public and private) debts are denominated in a currency that is not, then you are ratcheting up the pain factor for everyone – your €300k mortgage is still €300k, but your €38k salary becomes €30k – ouch.

      • Somewhat naively I would hope that increased competition would force down retail food prices. However if we left the Euro – we would be open to rampant inflation with IrishRetail crucifying JoePublic and justifying high prices by hiding behind currency fluctuations. That was why we went into the Euro.

        Debt is the killer problem – and inflation would at least soften the debt – deflation is as you say “ouch”.

        My view is that a strong sustainable property market is good for an economy (I do not understand David talking about permanently cheap land prices….). However this increases the risk of overinflated house prices – as we are only too aware of now. Again I would call for effective regulation and planning within the property market – take planning decisions out of the political sphere at all costs.

        For people who are in serious negative equity with mortgages – the State should be open to taking a percentage stake in the equity of the house. This would be aimed at lower to middle market – not high end. High enders will have to follow the Bill Cullen route and declare bankcruptcy.

    • Cuckoo is a good word to describe NAMA at the moment !

      What you seem to fail to understand is that NAMA is predicated not only on the Great Correction but on the false promise of a Tir na N’Og, a going back to the rip-off property prices of Ireland’s recent past , at which time NAMA having come through the Great Correction will make a profit for us all.

      However, the property bubble was a Ponzi pyramid scheme and the taxpayer is left holding the bill. The mathematics upon which it was based are shown in the courts to be a sham.

      NAMA is now an anchor around every taxpayer’s neck that will
      turn the Great Correction into a total destruction of the Irish economy.

      This destruction is happening before our eyes, the young are leaving taking Ireland’s future with them.

      As for the precious Ireland banks. Surely its better if they are sold to foreigners able to run a bank than left in the hands of destructive incompetents who should be in jail and who have no concern for Irish taxpayers.

      In the US the failure of a bank is not the end of the world, it happens relatively frequently. Its no big deal to start up a new bank, its time to halt the precious attachment FF have to a private cabal of Irish bankers. This has largely been the cause of our troubles.

      We have no need to be as stupid as NAMA is, we are after all the land of James Joyce, NAMA is making Ireland weaker to the world
      “Calling all downs. Calling all downs to dayne. Array! Surrec-
      tion! Eireweeker to the wohld bludyn world. O rally, O rally, O
      rally!” (Finnegan’s Wake)

      The euro is also making us weaker and is threatening to drown our ability to recover and to correct our economy. Getting out from under NAMA and the euro is a lifesaver.

      Staying put and doing nothing while observing the destruction by emigration, deflation, deterioration of services (our water is still being cut off and we live in the capital – - what do tourists think), should not be an option.

      Time to call a halt !

  10. The Pimpernell

    Can you do an analogy of the countrys finances based on the finances of an Irish family? That would bring home to a lot of people just how bad a situation we are really in.

    The Pimpernell

  11. I’ve just blogged that you’re telling it like it is, David.

    Well done (again).

  12. Deco

    David – some very salient points. The most frightening being that Long Term Economic Value is a figment of the imagination. In fact, we are being presented with two selling points for NAMA.
    i) LTEV
    ii) Get credit flowing.
    Both these are nonsense. They sound great but they are not true.

    AIB/BoI etc…need to reform themselves.

    Also the BoI owns massive shareholdings in AIB, ILP, CRH (which is currently the largest company on the ISEQ – for reasons for which I still can’t fathom…).
    Why did the BoI not sell these shareholdings and use the funds to recapitalise instead of dragging the taxpayer into this. The two large banks control the Irish stock exchange. As Shane Ross has repeated several times, they are appointing their own placemen (and they are mostly men) to be directors across a range of Irish businesses. There is a network f nepotism in the ISEQ, and if the Minister told them to queitly get out of the interference in the rest of the ISEQ, it would be good for the economy, and would save the country billions !!!

    Strange but every time you try to solve any problem in this country you find networks of cronyism and nepotism trying to prevent any reform occurring and making plans to suck more money out of the taxpayers to prop up incompetent outfits.

    The Irish concept of management has failed. It is that simple. This idea of putting somebody in charge because you played rugger/golf/whatever with his father is a load of rubbish. It is inherently opposed to the knowledge economy.

    There is a serious economic cost of incompetence derived from cronyism in this country, in the private sector. Everybody knows it. And nobody talks about it. David, perhaps you can write an article about it. Because it is high time that we recognised this as a very serious problem, and it needs fixing urgently !!!!


    Allow me to pick up on your analogy, because I feel it needs to be completed.

    —-Listening to politicians and bankers/brokers using these figures is like witnessing demented generals in the last stages of a war moving imaginary armies on a map – battalions that have long been vanquished.—-

    As history has proven, the reality at the end of WWII went like this;

    The demented generals were not only sitting in a bunker with “The Fuehrer’ moving their imaginary armies around the table while the US and their Allies moved ever so closer onto Berlin.

    They were still issuing orders!

    They were still sacrificing the innocent, ordered all youth and elderly to arms, to the very last minute this tragedy of delusional leaders caused thousands of people to loose their life, and while they were at it, turf wars between the somewhat sane and the delusional generals, literally slaughtering themselves, their back against a wall, insanity spread.

    Now, we see the very same slaughtering, Twitter causes O’Dea to be kicked out, few days later, something leaks from FF and Trevor has to go. These end of game turf wars they are in full motion in the irish Bunker in Kildare street.

    Only, there are no allies coming to the rescue of the irish nation, on the contrary, European Interests are put before us, prohibiting, at least this is what Lenhihan want everyone to believe, and which in deed is not entirely true, that a coupon stopper is the reason that we do not get the first installment of 250 millions back from the bank, that conveniently just has happened to change it’s fiscal year, so it would have been a smaller and adjusted installment anyways.

    This coupon stopper is NOT legally binding. On the contrary, if there is a legally binding contract between the irish government and BOI to pay back the sum on the date agreed, the european commission has NO SAY in that matter. This is to the best of my understanding, I stand to be corrected.

    There are no allies coming to rescue us from the demented generals, who started to slaughter themselves now, and only shouting stop will fall on deaf ears.

    They have to be removed from office by the people of ireland, by any non violent means necessary. This country needs to come to a complete standstill, to be able to take a deep breath. Kildare street needs to be blocked by 10,000 of people, refusing officials to enter government building by peacefully demanding them to give up their office.

    The very same happened in Iceland not so long ago. People with drums playing music, shouting slogans in front of government buildings this went on for a few weeks, and it worked. And it worked in DDR, ex Eastern germany as well, people need to be remembered that they are not powerless and that without their approval, nothing moves.

    NAMA NEEDS TO BE STOPED! Yes, let them go bust who caused this mess, by all means.

    • G

      Maybe some creative person could do a NAMA-spoof on the memorable scene from the film ‘Downfall’ which encapsulated the fall of the Third Reich, which as you point out saw the madness of the whole thing intensify in literally the dying days……..

      Maybe the cabinet will be a bit like this when they realise NAMA has destroyed the 1st Republic – out of the ashes hopefully we won’t see time servers like Mary McAleese or bankers sucking the financal life out of the State…………….


  14. tony_murphy

    I emailed some TD’s this morning. The Athlone example has to be the tipping point. It should have everyone in the country ringing there public representative TDs about

    • G

      Yes, the Athlone example is somewhat indicative of the state of the ‘property market’ but not sure we should extrapolate an entire sector on the basis of one bit of land in the middle of Athlone, yes there is a massive decline, but it will vary from place to place, certainly more rural areas will take a hit. If only property prices collapsed by 98% then I’d finally have a home!!

      But I agree with the central thrust of the article, there is not a snowballs chance in hell that NAMA will break even, to even suggest a profit is beyond all absurdity………..

      It is a political ‘solution’ to a political problem, business has little if anything to do with it, easier for the taxpayer to take a hit, sends the ‘proper’ political message to the ‘business community’, “we will save your chestnuts”, no doubt this was communicated back to London, Washington and Berlin.

      As David pointed out, we could have been in an impossible situation if we had incurred the losses from that ‘German bank’ which was operating out of the IFSC, very close shave, but like Iceland we are far from out of the woods……….

      As mentioned in previous posts, several X-factors (unknown elements) have entered the political equation, I find it hard to see how the government can survive, it is near the tipping point and may go down shooting……….

      Coughlan, as some have pointed out, be the proverbial straw etc, people all around are hoping and dare I say it, praying for an election, it will be unmerciful for FF and rightly so……..

      The O’Dea case, as pointed out very well last night by FG on Vincent Browne, highlighted the defense of serious violations of the law by people who are by profession barristers and solicitors, in other words Ministers and a Taoiseach who literally know better.

      I thought the performance of one Minister in particular obscene, and one of the darkest days in Irish parliamentary history, very close to an authoritarian/totalitarian system and extremely worrying.

      The nailing of Sargent struck me as a dying sting from a bee, things getting rough as the end nears.

      A new government may undo the contract with Shell so we can get back our resources, those 5 in Mayo should be given Medals of Honour for defending their families and local community, don’t hear too many pronouncements from McAleese on that kind of community work!!!!!!

      I hope also that Labour setup enquiries and find out as much as possible about what went on over the last 10 years, and publish every shred of evidence, pull out the ‘ultimate’ files on these people so we never see their ilk again.

      • Dilly

        Cowen should have stepped down over the Dublin Docklands fiasco, that was an utter disgrace. But, he cannot even see what he has done wrong. These guys are complete lunatics. The list of mistakes is endless, anyone in a private company would have been bundled out the front door by security long ago.

  15. Deco

    Interesting commentary on the current bond market vulnerability and a chain of exposure across all markets. The West as we know it is in serious trouble. Should we expect to be exempt given the utter stupidity of what could be termed the contemporary Irish concept of lifestyle ? Ireland has been living beyond your means for years…and not just FF, the speculators, the builders, or even the bankers…the entire society is intellectually condusive towards creating this mess……and now we face a new predicament….”It’s the debt, stoooopidd”

  16. I’ve never understand the rather perverse nationalism that exists around the idea that the Irish Banks must be Irish owned. It’s nonsense, I don’t recall the “Irish” Banks doing anything for the benefit of the state or the nation over and above what made business sense for them nor would I expect them to. They’re businesses not some national representatives in a global fiscal version of the Eurovision.

    I still don’t understand why Brian Lenihan hasn’t been challenged on RTe about his view that because the Irish banks owe money to their bondholders that somehow the Irish state owed it and hence we had to stand over it via the guarantee or less no one would lend the Irish state money. Of course people would continue to lend the state money, perhaps at a higher margin but we’re paying that now anyway.

    • Deco

      Actually, the Big Two Irish banks are already largely foreign owned. Not sure what the story is concerning Permo. The EBS is wholly Irish owned – though we do not know how long more that will last.

    • Daniel,

      If I am not mistaken, RTE is state owned, would that be right? If you have a chance to see latest Pat “The Patronizer” Kenny, THE FRONTLINE, where Bill Cullen insulted the entire generation of youngster in this county to be nothing but a spoiled lazy bunch and suggested them to work for no payment and stop whining.

      RTE to me is like a Korean, Iranian____ <- fill in whatever you see fit, propaganda channel which is under gag orders when it comes to certain political issues.

      Deco said somewhere, people need to switch out Tele and this is so right.

      • G

        PRAVDA/RTE have been a disgrace, and that won’t change, not even with a change of government, still many overpaid people at the top, while plebs at the bottom suffer wage cuts and job losses, again another interesting case study in how power works, as in the case of Ryan and Kenny, you stuff their mouths with gold, neutralising any possible governmental opposition on the ‘national airwaves’, not that they would have spoken out in any case.

        As for Cullen, well I was speaking to my hospitalised father yesterday, he sumed it up pretty well, he had met Cullen once about 20 years ago. He struck him as a decent, and straight man, a man who did work hard, came from nothing but in recent times has left things go to his head with him ultimately losing it on the Frontline programme and making a spectacle of himself.

        He certtainly did not endear himself as a employer. In any case, Cullen’s practices (selling cars) is hardly a sustainable business model, unless they are fully converted to be environmentally friendly, which is extremely unlikely. The audience made intelligent points, for instance one said if we had a better integrated transport system we would not need all the miles of roads or vehicles and people like Cullen would not have made what some regard as obscene profits.

        I lived in Bremen and got around the city using the excellent tram and bus system (really worth studying)……

        Cullen seems to have become a victim of his ‘success’ and his points do not hold up to serious analysis.

        Alienating the crowd with his comments about their pampered nature was both a slur and appalling generalisation. College life is no walk in the park and quite frankly I delight in the fact that the Irish are well travelled, such experiences enhance a country. I sense Cullen is a deeply hurt man, a man who grew up in tough circumstances and worked his tail off. He seemed to begrudge those who did more than him (travel, education etc) and didn’t have to rise at 4am to work for nothing.

        Cullen to my mind is the exception to the rule, again as a member of the audience pointed out, we should be working to creating a sustainable and equitable society where people don’t have to prostitute themselves to employers or rise at unGodly hours to justify their existence, again it is not a sustainable existence, I can only imagine the toll such a lifestyle would take on a person’s health and personal relationships – not the way to go.

        I sympathise with Cullen to some degree, I have some insight through my father as to how tough life can be when you literally haven’t a bob and are growing up in an extremely disadvantaged area.

        Cullen is obviously a talented man in a certain kind of way but I think he should stop castigating the younger generation, many of them work hard and have tough circumstances too and this is no time for division.

        All in all, it was a poor enough exchange on Frontline but I was greatly heartened by some of the comments from the young members of the audience, extremely switched on.

  17. There has to be a realisation here that we are not the type of race that gets up in arms and ousts the Government and we are not going to change that any time soon. NAMA legislation has been passed, the EU will most likely find good reason to agree to the terms this week and indeed the transfer of loans will commence.

    So the insiders will stiff the outsiders…. Shift happens. I am not in any way condoning the mess that was made, but the fact is that the mess is made and it needs to be fixed.

    Now what are the ideas to go about doing this? Well the Greek 10% off everything is a big idea. It is not far off the old Dunnes Stores concept of “pile ‘em high and sell ‘em cheap”. We are all into the campaign to reduce our carbon footprint. Everyone has to do a little more to use a little less of fossil fuel.

    At least “your country, your call” is a campaign to stop whinging and get on with doing a little to the power of ‘one’ as opposed to complaining into your pint of beer on friday about how tough it is and how much less you are worth this year compared to last.

    Are you prepared to take on an intern, inconvenient or not, for free to teach them the ropes when they leave college?

    What about a campaign of “Green Shield Stamps” where you change the full rate, but take 10% in vouchers to be redeemed from another contractor or shop, restaurant who is also in the scheme? It won’t get you a cheaper 56 inch LCD TV, but it will support a student who is able to work in a restaurant because you are using your voucher as a discount and perhaps spending a little more than nothing which would have happened if you avoided the restaurant in the first place.

    • A private sector currency can not only reduce the cost of Irish goods and service by 10% but can encourage consumers to spend more on Irish goods and services, reward tourists for coming to Ireland in the form of vouchers and possibly start to reduce unemployment.

  18. Hi All,
    After Trevor Sargent resigning as Minister of State and accepting that he made ‘an error of judgment’ we are again faced with Government spin.
    Mr. Sargent you’re error was your support for the largest con ever to be pulled on the Irish people (NAMA) and its jail time you should be doing!
    Here we see the calamity that is the current Government of Ireland
    The dissolution of this government is just as quick as the drip feed of disastrous news on the banking system, plus the traitorous intention to support the golden circle’s members of the financial elite of this country by socializing the toxic debts and privatizing the profits of the financial industry
    We the people need to step up to the challenge and make the change.
    I and a few friends are putting together a document that will be the basis for a manifesto, for a new political movement that in time will hope to challenge the current political setup here in Ireland
    All are welcome to contribute to this 2nd step!
    I believe that the current system is hopelessly corrupt and has lost its connection with the ordinary people
    David I think it’s time to take the next step, one can only write so much!
    How about it?

  19. Restoring Credit.

    David surely you cannot be calling for blanket credit to be restored….. and I know you are not. But many (most) enterprises business models are not worthy of lending to under the current market conditions. Very dangerous to start populist slogans for restoring credit.

    Government needs to legislate (if possible) to remove upward only rents.

    Government needs to get the minimum wage in line with that of UK – and God help this country if Jack O’Connor isn’t shut up.

    Government needs to reform financial regulation – why is the media not pressurising for this? And then Government needs to overhaul planning regulation (altho they have certainly bought time on this one!!)

    The People need to vote for meaningful political divides – not this FF FG historical thrash – you only have had to look at Frontline last monday – FG and FF were the same. (Bill Cullen told it as it should be told).

    It is possible the world cannot get out of this mess – but lets act as if it is going to and at least get our house into order.

  20. C’mon guys – send this article to EVERYONE – I’ve put it up on Facebook, Twitter, my site, LinkedIn and I emailed it to 499 contacts (Gmail wouldn’t allow 500+).
    Now to start texting…

  21. suonish

    ” The way this is done in the real world is that the creditors are told the game is up, there is no cash left in the kitty,”

    I recently read of two New York developers going bust – their main creditor was ADIA or the Abu Dhabi Sovereign Wealth Fund. (I’ve been googling the link for half an hour to no avail, I’ll have to check the history on my other computer, sorry.) They lost 500m or so, down the plughole. Did Bloomberg raise taxes to compensate Abu Dhabi? Did he f**k. Abu Dhabi will just have to take it on the chin as a bad investment, along with the other 125bn or so they’ve lost around the world. Who cares? It’s capitalism, as David says. It was western money anyway that went over to Abu Dhabi via the gas pump, and round and round it goes.

    But in Ireland, our politico-chimp class want to shove an iron bar into the cogs of the capitalistic merry go round, and make ‘their’ people pay for the repairs.

    I AM SO F**KING ANGRY. Would someone please step forward so I can support them?


    Buill Cullen thinks NAMA is a great idea and that people should work for free!.If this the best the business class can offer, the sooner Ireland disappears like Atlantis, the better.Anybody fancy a rusty Renault and a soggy weekend in his cheesy hotel?.

    • Deco

      If you don’t like Bill Cullen buy a car in a competitor, and choose a different hotel.

      The reason Bill Cullen annoyed people, is because Bill Cullen doesn’t grasp that the cost of living in this country has soared. But Bill did sell the helicopter last year – so he is tightening his belt – give the man some credit : )

      Larry Goodman is still flying around in his chopper – di he not have to get bailed out also once ? The days of CJH !!!

    • suonish

      And I wonder how Bill managed to get his car monopolies? And he still managed to screw it up.

      • Original-Ed

        In fairness to Bill, he’s got some balls – he took over a defunct Renault distributorship with debts of 18 million, in 1986, when the country was on its knees. That was a serious high jump without parachute.

  23. walnut

    The dye is cast; there is nothing that can stop this disaster from unfolding now!

  24. [...] 24, 2010 by holemaster Excellent article by David McWilliams on NAMA and the great farce that it is. Please take time to read it and inform yourself. The less [...]

  25. Mark

    David, it is time we started to consider what can be done.
    There are almost 500,000 people out of work or emigrating.
    Consider the following back-of-the envelope calculation:
    If the govt (somehow, sic!) created 300,000 jobs at the avg ind wage (35k), it would render a minimum of 9 billion euro for the exchequer, in saved welfare, and income tax. Not to mention the additional VAT and other taxes that could be collected from additional spending.

    Ah – hold on a second – I just woke up, I knew it was too good to be true ! The politicians are too busy with nixer-fixers and playing silly-buggers, Yes Minister-style, to be bothered with getting with what they are paid to do !!!! ie serving the national interest.
    Jobs-plan? What plan? The only plan Cowen is truly familiar with is when he froths/bellows out at the end of the day: “Right, lads, Whash de plan for tonight, whah?”

    Silly me…. now, back to the nightmare that is reality !!!!
    Ho ho ho – 500 billion euro of national debt here we come !!!

    • MT25

      It is astonishingly true. gross cost of 300,000 jobs at 35K is 10.5billion. minus savings in soc welfare, taxes reouped, VAT etc. This has at least got to be a lot cheaper than letting folks rot at home – assuming they still have homes.

  26. lff12

    David, great piece and definitely very accessible.

    I really do feel however, that there is a significant gap between NAMA or banking “valuations” and real world prices at which these assets are likely to be sold at. The reason I say this is that lately I’ve (for reasons of research) looking at house prices in East Cork on Daft and as is the case, there is a large amount of land for sale, small and large. The sale prices are still well above what I would consider “affordable” even for that area. For example you can now get a 2 bed bungalow in many places for around 140k – yet land sales are almost as much, even a place without planning permission and a derelict building which needs to be knocked is around 50k. This doesn’t tally with valuations such as those reported under NAMA, and at the same time, these places are languishing on the market because obviously they are not going to sell.

    Its the same thing on the rental market. If you look around prices haven’t fallen at the base ends of the market – what has happened is that property that was previously “premium” priced above that level have fallen to it. Its still several times a median wage. I wonder what level of vacant properties we can tolerate before this madness ends.

  27. Conan Drumm

    I think the ‘triple lock’ is copperfastened by the dip into the National Pension Reserve. There’s an irony in this of course because one of the reasons for meddling in banking was because the private pension funds were taking a bath. So the government is now throwing public pension money down the drain after it, in order to underwrite the banks’ value.

  28. David, speaking to a senior chap at the EBRD last week, he thought that Ireland was too marginal a market for any existing bank with the funds to enter. Seemed odd to me that Sberbank (Russia) and ICICI (India) and a chinese bank wouldn’t be interested in viable Irish consumers and businesses but nonetheless that’s what he thought. So who do you think would want to buy BoI and AIB then?

    Also do you see any value in calling for the first tranche of loans to NAMA to be severely pared back to say less than €1bn and to have a quick review of NAMA, its valuation methodology and modus operandum after the first tranche has been transferred?

    • @namawinelake,

      The problem with NAMA valuation methodology is the market interference caused by NAMA.

      So developers are looking to NAMA to see what valuations NAMA gives before they proceed with any development.

      The problem with this is, no developers are going to believe any of the NAMA valuations, because they fear that NAMA will do exactly as you say, review their valuation methodology following the first tranche and by doing so undermine or undercut previous valuations by later flooding the market with tons of stuff.

      Sweden recognised this problem immediately. Get the stuff off the books. Provide incentives to property companies to move the stuff. They managed to clear the toxic portfolios in three to 5 years. NAMA seems designed to last to infinity at everyone’s expense.

      Who cares, government ministers can fiddle as Rome is burning for as long as they want with their fat salaries?

      The whole market place is skewed! NAMA is to valuations what pollution is to environment. I’d imagine it might better succeed under a type of Putin economics in east european states with greater state control of the marketplace. But for capitalism and free enterprise, it’s state monopoly slow doom interference with the market place that just doesn’t add up or bear scrutiny, anyways its veiled in scrutiny so we’ll have to see it working in all its glory!

      Market is watching NAMA while NAMA watches the market, neither believes the other.

      NAMA was built on the false presumption that given time, the tide would turn and lift all the toxic loans.But the tide turning is no use to a ship anchored to the bottom with a NAMA anchor.

      Ireland INC is that ship, we drown with NAMA while other smarter economies lift out of recession!

      • swap secrecy for scrutiny above:)

        • Agree with you cbweb, NAMA are becoming a very secret leviathan. The press are quoting “sources” yet there have been precious few public pronouncements by NAMA – 2 since last November. How on earth could the press learn last week that the first tranche of Anglo loans are likely to have a 50% discount.
          That’s why we need transparency, a cross party committee to quiz NAMA on a regular basis and particularly after the first tranche (which should be pared back from 1/5th of the overall total to something minimal) has been transferred.

      • Agree with the sentiment cbweb, with enough housing in the State to last nearly 100 years (assuming overhang of 300,000 (UCD will say later this week that it’s more), birth and death rates of 15 and 8 per 1000 and migration continuing at last year’s level (-8000) and new home builds at 10,000 per annum), we will have enough housing for 100 years and that may be the lifespan of NAMA (I know residential is but part but there are equally disastrous characteristics of the commercial market).

        • Deco

          Alright…now I get what is meant by LONG term economic value. Four generations from now the housing market will have recovered. I do not why I was so stupid to not see how this would work…..

          LTEV = a load of pie in the sky nonsense.

  29. cozzy121

    David, I wonder if the often used phrase of “moral hazard” can be applied to a nation.
    Like the bankers, we as a nation borrowed more and more, we lazily re-elected proven corrupt, incompetent fools to govern us, again and again. We did not care about our roads, we did not care about our schools (I cite a national school in mount merrion that still has it’s kids in prefabs), we did not care about our hospitals. All we cared was who was going to give us relief on stamp duty, mortgage interest, etc. I know we were misled, but we blindly followed, surely NAMA is our just-deserts.

    • Cozzy121
      I think you are spot on – we were all culpable because we had lost the wherewithall to question.

      But, if the world gets back on track, then we need to learn our lessons well (and maybe NAMA hanging around our necks for a couple of decades may let people not forget).

      Clean Ireland up; push out the criminals (which invcludes the odd banker); be competitive; be smart.

      Maybe things will be better sooner than we think.

  30. agentino

    Best line i have read in a long time. My sentiments exactly

    Listening to politicians and bankers/brokers using these figures is like witnessing demented generals in the last stages of a war moving imaginary armies on a map – battalions that have long been vanquished

  31. ps200306

    I am all in favour of killing off NAMA and the Irish banks with it. But there are two aspects whose impact I’m not sure I understand.

    First, what happens to bank deposits? I don’t see how they do not disappear along with the banks themselves. If the banks’ problem is that debts far outstrip assets, then depositers are just another creditor in the queue. As a country we can no more afford to bail out depositors than we can any other creditor.

    Second, we are not the only country with busted banks who are leveraged to a significant fraction of GDP. If we let our banks go, there will be a contagion affect across Europe (and probably beyond). There will be a wave of bank closures. Who is this putative foreign owner who is going to step in and restore us to a nicely functioning banking system? European banking will be over.

    I wonder if we are imagining that the Irish banks’ demise will only affect some impersonal foreign bondholders, and that we can let them go without serious repercussions for ourselves. Can anyone enlighten me as to what the real impact might be?

    • Beavis

      I reckon the State gets to carry the can on the deposits (not sure if there is an equivalent of the FDIC in Ireland). We still have a government guarantee of the banks in place, but there has been no case to test the legal implications (yet!).
      The banks could be flogged off to one of the more serious European players, who refused state aid and are now back in profit i.e. Deutsche and Barclays (ING bought Barings for a single pound sterling after it collapsed). If anything this might shake up the Irish banking system for the better — our banks were brutally inefficient even during the boom years.
      The only real alternative is to take the banks into state hands (and put their debts onto the national accounts, although this will make us really unpopular within the Eurozone for a while). After firing the managers (some should face criminal charges), the next step would be to divide the assets off into separate bad and good banks. The good banks could then be sold off (for a profit to the benefit of the state and thus the taxpayer) and the bad banks would stay in state hands to be wound down.
      All is needed is the political leadership ………. (*&%! – I knew there was a catch!)

      • ps200306

        A couple of not-so-minor points:

        1) The State doesn’t have a ghost of a chance of underwriting deposits if the banks fold.

        2) The bad bank in a good-bank-bad-bank split can’t be “wound down”, and all the debts made to go away. That scenario only works if the State is carrying the can. Otherwise you are stealing the assets of a company, leaving its creditors out of pocket, which is entirely illegal.

        That’s why any such suggestion need actual numbers attached to them. we need to know NOW what we are in hock for under any proposed scenario.

    • OK

      Stiglitz here answers your points in the detail you need you need:

      The article is a little over one year old, but the points in it should allay any concern you may have for the Irish banks.


  32. ps200306

    I wish I could stop being cynical these days.

    Your Country Your Call — “Well, us politicians and RTE hacks are fresh out of ideas. So we thought we’d scrape together our last few bob to see if by some miraculous chance there’s someone out there who knows how to rescue the sinking ship for less than the post-crash price of a bedsit in the bleak Dublin suburbs”.

    • ps200306

      “And by the way, we already spent most of the last few bob on a glossy ad campaign featuring us politicians and RTE hacks (and some rousing Oirish background music)”.

    • cozzy121

      Your country, your call – “last one to leave turn off the lights”……

      • G

        @ cozzy121

        I had to reflect on this ‘intiative’ for fear that I was being overly negative or reactionary, however…………….

        It strikes me as a not so serious effort by a lot of people (mostly political, media, business elite) to be seen to be doing something, it is hardly credible in light of the role the State actually played in wrecking our fortunes and the fortunes of future generations.

        It could be described, not unreasonably, as a very cynical exercise, and for saying so, one would ironically enough be branded a ‘cynic’.

        Perverse, Orwellian world………..

        Also the idea that ‘one’ idea will be chosen, along with a couple of runner-ups says it all, one idea, with 500,000 euro backing ain’t going to change much, let alone have any impact on the 500,000 unemployed.

        My ‘call’ for the new republic would be to scrap the presidency, doubt Dr. Martin would find that too appetising a prospect.

        • Strangely, that’s what I was thinking to so fair play for having the guts to voice what probably many are thinking. Start trimming the Turkey from the top………to stop emigration from the bottom

          As Diogenes the Cynic said
          .“The foundation of every state is the education of its youth.”

          • G

            Thank you for quoting Diogenes, what a fascinating character, there is a painting of him as an old man with a lamp, ‘searching for an honest man’.

            You got to hand it to the Greeks, they certainly went to the core!!!

          • David_Back_From_US

            I read through 100 or so proposals on the Your Country Your Call site. There’s a lot of interesting ideas on the micro level around green energy and around leveraging the talent of those who are unemployed to do good for the country/gain skills at the same time. What’s striking is that with this huge debt burden that Ireland has, nothing comes close to creating this tidal wave of exports that allow us to actually pay back the money to the foreign creditors.

  33. Mike Hyland

    Castleknock, Dublin, sometime in September 2008, mid-night

    Brian, Brian, wake up, shakes him gently.

    Trish what, what time is it?

    There’s someone at the door. Sounds like a couple of people.

    Gets up, looks out window,

    Oh God it’s the lads from the department. Go back to sleep love, I might be a while.

    Come in, come in. I’ll put the kettle on, we‘ll use the kitchen. So… it must be serious lads, you’re both ashen faced.

    Yes Minister, the central bank hasn’t stopped ringing and more from Sean Fitz. They’re in big trouble.

    Right, right, but we knew this already, sure there was a run on the deposits in the past weeks. What’s the issue now?

    They’re broke Minister, they’ve nothing left and the Germans are looking for their money.

    Brian stands up, gets the kettle and pours hot water into the pot, rinses. Three tea bags, fills it and brings it to the table, sits down.

    We’ll let it draw a while.

    Okay, we’ve already spoken about this and voiced our concerns, as recently as yesterday so, what exactly is needed from the Irish Government at this point?

    They want us to bail them out Minister.

    Pours three cups.

    Milk and sugar?

    Takes a sip and looks at Ireland’s two most senior department of Finance officials sitting in front of him.

    Gentlemen, as I’ve told you many times before, I was elected by the good people of Ireland whom I now represent in Government. I serve no purpose other than to articulate their interest. With a very small exception, a tiny exception, none of these people hold Anglo Irish accounts. None gentlemen. I mention this by way of explanation as to why this government has no intention of intervening in this bank’s problems. Be clear about this in your communications to the central bank and to Mr. Fitzpatrick. At today’s cabinet meeting Brian Cowen made it clear to me and the other department heads that we are a party of the people, elected by the people and whose mandate comes from the people. Our voters have nothing to do with this bank, so why are you persisting with this line of enquiry.

    Minister, there will be a run on other banks too; we believe AIB is similarly over-exposed. When the people look for their money, there will be none left and civil unrest will follow.

    Once again Gentlemen, this Government is not about to gamble the public purse on the outcome of a crap shoot by the canal bank. They invested, they gambled and when they won they shoved it into my constituents with their vulgarity and extravagance. My constituents did not profit in the good times, not one iota. And now the tide has turned, as we advised it would on numerous occasions in the past 18 months, now the banks come calling with their begging bowls.
    No gentlemen, once again no, no to Anglo Irish and no to Allied Irish. We will look at trying to provide a rescue package to those owner occupiers who are most at risk, some sort of compensations scheme which would allow this unfortunate negative equity group to move house and not be bankrupted in the process. Beyond this, nothing.

    Minister, I implore you to reconsider. Europe will not look kindly on this. Look you know the pressure we came under after the last farrago.

    Europe, what has Europe got to do with Ireland managing its own affairs. This is an internal matter not a federal issue. The Taoiseach has spoken at length with his European counterparts and explained how this situation is a specific and clearly differentiable problem, set apart from Ireland’s central economy. He named the companies involved, both of you know the ten names, the ten entities at the root of this problem.
    Yes, there will be a run on the banks. The run on Anglo is not a state issue. Allied Irish bank will be a concern but on the balance of probabilities, it is better that this Government sits on its hands for the moment and is also clearly seen as taking a stand against these mercenaries.

    But Minster, the riots, the chaos, the confusion, the markets………..
    This Government has a finite capacity and resources. We have five million citizens. The world economy is making an adjustment right now and we must be vigilant over the coming months and years managing our scarce resources for the benefit of all our people. We cannot afford to bail or guarantee these banks who so carelessly gambled with their share holder’s equity. The Irish economy is not a casino.

    How will we trade Minister?

    Gentlemen it’s late, please. There will be a queue of banks waiting to take the places of those foolish enough to have gambled. Not all are similarly as exposed, either here at home or elsewhere. Our economy is not 100% dependent on building houses, apartments, hotels and shopping centres. Do the math please. It might be 10%. No gentlemen, the captain has turned on the seatbelt sign, there’s turbulence up ahead yes, but only that.

  34. MK1

    Hi David,

    I agree 100% with your article.

    Lance the Boil, its full of pus!

    ps200306 > depositers are just another creditor in the queue.

    Well, this is where we do come in. It makes sense if the government honours the deposits 100%, especially retail (people) deposits that are of the small order <100k. Ireland (Inc, Teo) needs that money.

    I have no idea as to what extent the level of deposits are there in the bank in real terms and what are 'asset' backed and given out on loans that have now gone 'bad'.


    • ps200306

      Did DMcW not mention that there is €175 billion on deposit? We don’t have that sort of money. Clearly the deposits plus “good loans” don’t come close to covering the debts, otherwise we wouldn’t be in this mess. So why would the depositor be treated any more favourably than any other creditor? Wouldn’t that be illegal, in fact?

    • Malcolm McClure

      The first tranche of Nama loans has now been deferred from end February until end March while Ireland awaits EU approval.
      Is this good news or bad news?

  35. s1lverbullet

    i think we seriously need to look into the vested interests that have drawn up this Nama plan. PWC, Merrill Lynch, Aurthur Cox, and last of all Rothschilds. This fraud is being touted a Lenihan’s brainchild but he is only the messenger. Rothschilds currently have the contract but have been involved for quite awhile. By the way, if we go bust, they will lend us the money. Conflict of interest methinks!!

  36. [...] 24, 2010 by namawinelake One of NAMA’s most trenchant critics today reminds us of the absolutely horrible state of the property market in the State and raises again concerns [...]

  37. Deco

    End for Coughlan.
    Coughlan was asked last year to sign over Hanger 6 for Aircraft Maintenance to RyanAir – RyanAir were ready to proceed with retaining the SR Technics workers.

    And Coughlan looked after her ICTU/North Dublin FF chums and let the 500 jobs go.


    And put somebody in place who will gaurantee the jobs for them workers.

    Also it should be noted that the ICTU appointed placement on the boards of the DAA and Aer Lingus have no intention of helping out the unemployed SR Technics workers. They should also resign in shame !!!

  38. Dilly

    Excellent article !!

  39. BrianMc

    Contributions Invited:

    “5 Things the Individual Can do to Stop NAMA:”


    “5 Things the Collective Can do to Stop NAMA:”

    People will act if there is a roadmap to stop NAMA.

  40. Malcolm McClure

    The first tranche of Nama loans has now been deferred from end February until end March while Ireland awaits EU approval.
    Is this good news or bad news?

  41. Tim

    Folks, does anyone think that the publication of this article today and the fact that David’s Twitter account got hacked today is a co-incidence?

    Basically, the hackers hi-jacked his account, pretended to be him and sent DMs (direct messages – not publicly seen) containing phishing progs to his followers.

    This, naturally caused many people to spread the word through the network to ignore links from David, for now.

    Therefore, Foolish Penny’s request above, that all of us here should pass this article around, is even more urgent and important.

    If someone *is* trying to stop him spreading the word himself, I believe we should do it for him.

    I, for one, consider I owe him that and a whole lot more.

  42. [...] of the right of centre David McWilliams on the government’s bank bailout plans in today’s Irish Independent should sound like something from a student union meeting of long ago: . . . permanently cheap land [...]

  43. wills


    Article one step for man, now for the giant step for mankind……………..

    ……………………….blow the whistle on ‘debt creation’ and the paper money confidence trick.

    • wills


      Look at the amount of new posters jumping in.

      Tell the people David, tell the people.

      The people want to know.

      There is a ground swell reaching critical mass David.

      The people know in their gut they are been taking to the cleaners by dennis the menace enterprises.

      Tell the people David, keep going, blow the whistle and tell the people the truth, the ‘debt’ creation scamarama.

      People want to know, they want to read it and hear it from a credible source.

      Its every where, people are moving toward wanting to know en masse,..

      .they see it, the veils are falling from their eyes, the fog is lifting the itch is getting itchier they want to know, tell the people David and they will come, …

      …oooooooooooh yes they will come David, just tell it the way it is, ………….

      ………blow the whistle, the time is now, ……….

  44. Ronan – can you delete the 42 above I wrote please

  45. I have just read how the sinking of the EURO is happening soon and there is no choice and all Euro sinks together in all Euroland

  46. Today AIB is “worth” 880 million but needs a current estimate of 4.5 thousand million put in to survive.

    Why not put 2 thousand million into the credit unions for SME loans and leave AIB sink.

    Why not? What part of this am I missing?

    • €4.5bn – that’s assuming a 30% haircut which is looking unlikely. Enda Kenny said any haircut less than 40% would be “outright theft” which would mean AIB needed about €7bn.

      • Welcome namawinelake.
        It’s absurd beyond being surreal. Mrs Furry wanted a boiled down explanation about all this. I asked her to lend me 7000 after I had robbed her 800 savings to keep going. Not perfect but I got the point across.
        Mrs Furry was not impressed at all.

        • G

          Excellent, must have been a wonderful scene in the Furry household!

          • Mrs Furry was considering signing up to the site to learn more until I showed her a couple of wills posts in full flight and John Allens predictions of the NAMA Nemesis crashing into Dun Aengus.

            Mrs Furry signed up to Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev instead.

            She was of the opinion that all were virtually as deep as the ocean but you could see Gurdgiev on the telly.
            There are no prisoners taken in the Furry household.

          • G

            Handy woman for the revolution :-)

    • wills

      Controlling interests preserving power furrylugs.

      The banks means they control credit provision which means they control the monetary system which means they sit at the head of the table.

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