It’s time to shout ‘stop’ – NAMA is grand larceny

February 24, 2010


The land has reverted to the price you’d get from a farmer for putting a donkey out to graze on it

For the past year, this column has been warning of a “triple lock” in the Irish banking system, which would financially incarcerate the Irish people for a generation.

The triple lock would solder the people to the banking system in a suffocating embrace forcing us to borrow from tomorrow to pay for yesterday and, in the process, destroy the opportunities of today.

Now with the Government upping its stake in Bank of Ireland, this prediction — regretfully — is coming to pass. The worst thing is that it doesn’t have to be like this. The latest news that some development land in Athlone valued in the boom at €31m is now worth only €600,000 has truly terrifying implications for all of us, because it means NAMA will bankrupt us, and the triple lock implies that we can’t sever the fortunes of the people from the fortunes of the bank.

Let’s just recap what I mean by the triple lock. The first lock was the bank guarantee, the second lock was NAMA and the third lock was the “forced” nationalisation of the banks. It is important to remember one overriding fact: we do not need Bank of Ireland or AIB. This truism needs to sink in. There is nothing sacrosanct about either, nor is there anything sacrosanct about the debts these banks have run up. These debts have nothing to do with us.

Yes, we need a banking system or a couple of functioning banks, but they don’t have to be AIB or Bank of Ireland as constituted at present.

At this stage, the Government should be trying to give the banks away for free to a large European bank. This is what you would do if a sweetshop were in trouble and banks are no different. Any new owner, taking the opportunity of having cash, not debt, in a downturn, will do a deal with the creditors. This is how normal bankruptcies work.

What big bank wouldn’t want to take on the Irish deposit base of €175bn, the branch network and the banking possibilities of a European country? The new owners would do a deal with the old creditors. The way this is done in the real world is that the creditors are told the game is up, there is no cash left in the kitty, but if they are prepared to take stock of the new parent bank, they can get something out of their Irish misadventure. Obviously the new owners of Bank of Ireland would roast the old creditors, but, hey, that’s capitalism!

The only way new credit will emerge in Ireland is if there is a new banking balance sheet. And the only way a new banking balance sheet will emerge is if the big banks are given away to a healthy bank for free and the old creditors told where to go — to the back of the queue.

The problem for us in Ireland is that the people who are drafting our laws locking us to the banks do not understand this, because they are not capitalists; they are legalistic functionaries, civil servants and bankers trying to hold on to their jobs. In short, they are consummate insiders with their interests vested in the old status quo who can’t see that the old status quo is the problem.

As a result, these insiders are all too happy to give the outsiders (the people) the bill without any thought of how we are going to raise this money. This is why the Finance Minister can come on radio and talk blithely of billions here and there without appearing to consider just how much money this is and how much we have to produce to earn these sums he is tossing about.

Listening to politicians and bankers/brokers using these figures is like witnessing demented generals in the last stages of a war moving imaginary armies on a map — battalions that have long been vanquished.

About 18 months ago, the ‘guarantee’ was constructed to avoid this endgame. The logic of the guarantee was to buy time to get the banks to sort out their own mess. Implicit was the notion that the banks were to look to the market — not the State — for capital and, if there were to be a ‘bad bank’, the banks (not the taxpayer) would have to fund it from their own resources.

On the night the guarantee was first mooted, the ‘bad bank’ was touched on too. The bad bank would be a skip into which we threw our withered land portfolio. The State would raise the money, but the banks would pay for this out of their profits and the taxpayer was not to be touched.

Unfortunately, and not surprisingly given the way our country runs, the banking ‘insiders’ hijacked these ideas last year and have left us with the pathetic situation we are in where they get away with it and give us the bill.

To see how pathetic the reality is, let’s go back to the site in Athlone and extrapolate. The value of this land has fallen by 98pc from €31m to €600,000. So, after all the hype about Ireland and its new wealth, the price of the land has reverted to the price you’d get from a farmer for putting a donkey out to graze on it.

In the Commercial Court, Mr Justice Peter Kelly — who is emerging as a hero in all this — said that his original presumption (from his experience in the Commercial Court in the past year) that land prices had fallen by 70-80pc was now put “in a cocked hat”. So he thinks 70-80pc falls in land prices are too optimistic.

So if we look at the breakdown of NAMA’s ‘assets’ and see what this new reality means for the banks and us, we see that there will be €51.5bn of land and development assets and “associated loans” transferred. If we apply Mr Justice Kelly’s discount based on what he has seen so far, we are looking at a hole of possibly €40bn, where we will borrow €51.5bn from the ECB, for assets worth a little over €10bn.

Obviously there will be some assets that will be worth more. In addition, some of the assets that are in the UK or the US will recover reasonably quickly, but given that the lion’s share are in Ireland, a massive discount should be expected.

Whatever the gap, someone has to plug it and, although the NAMA plan is over 10 years, no one in their right mind believes that development land in Athlone will ever again be worth €31m — nor should it be.

In fact, permanently cheap land should be the aim in order to give us a comparative advantage. But permanently cheap land would impoverish the landlords and their financial backers — the very people who have got us into this mess and the very people NAMA is devised to rescue. So someone has to pay for the bailout.

According to the triple lock system devised by the Government, we the people — the outsiders — will plug this gap. This is grand larceny overseen by the insiders. Someone has to shout “stop”!




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  1. Tim says:

    Folks, all this “Your Country, Your Call” rubbish sickens me, I have to say. A year and a half ago, a wonderful idea was brought forward:

    http://www.spiritofireland.org

    Of course, it requires a helluva lot more investment than a measley €500k, but it would set us up for the future.

    From the periodical newsletters I receive from this group via email, it appears they are being strung-along, if not fobbed-off by government – no long-term-thinking.

    But do not forget that many of us have put alot of thought into rescue-ideas already and they are all here, ready to be added to and edited, by all of us, together:

    http://etherpad.com/OwNzsgQpSa

    Let’s keep at it!

    • Robert says:

      Tim,

      Totally agree with your assessment of “Your country your call”. It is simply a bullshit FF/GP sideshow designed to tell the unemployed youth to “be all positive” and, as Bill Cullen might put it, “get out and work for free and get experience”

      Is it a 500k investment – As far as I’m aware 200k investment. . . . . . That is 55000000000 times less than the 11000 million provided for the banks.

      It should be called “Your Country Your Debt” with pictures of Seanie Fitz with a smiling Bertie inside a Galway tent with various other property developers. Crazy.

      • Fergal73 says:

        “Your Country Your Debt”

        I’m afraid it’s true…. The irish taxpayer will pay for the flights of fancy (in helicopters, first class FAS flights) and oysters and champagne in the FF tent.

        The collapse of the system is barely credible. I never bought because I saw a bubble, but I never thought Ireland would get this bad….

  2. martino says:

    That’s the Hotmail sign-in page John. Do you mean do not read Hotmail?

    • John ALLEN says:

      martino – I had read a report by ‘Weiss’ about the Euro and its collective devaluation soon .I bothched up the web url. Sorry.

      • John ALLEN says:

        Martino – here it is :

        “Greecing” the skids
        for the euro’s demise

        On October 8, Greece’s benchmark 10-year bond was stable and rising. Then, suddenly and without warning, global investors dumped their Greek bonds with unprecedented fury, driving its market value into a death spiral.

        Likewise, Portugal’s 10-year government bond reached a peak on December 1, 2009, less than three months ago. It has also started to plunge virtually nonstop.

        The reason: A new contagion of fear about sovereign debt! Indeed, both governments are so deep in debt, investors worry that default is not only possible — it is now LIKELY!

        A similar problem afflicts multiple nations in the euro zone: Spain is awash in red ink and STILL doling out endless checks to support the 20% of its work force that’s unemployed. Italy’s debt disaster, although nominally not as bad as Spain’s, could actually be a lot worse, once you cut through the subterfuge and accounting manipulations.

        The biggest danger of all …

        The supposedly “strong” euro-zone countries — like Germany and France — have promised to bail out Greece. By taking on trillions in dead-weight debt, they hope and pray they’re saving all the leaky boats.

        Instead, as top euro-zone officials themselves admit, they’re merely sinking the entire ship — the euro.

        This is why, when the euro was created in the first place, its “founding fathers” made sure that bailouts of weaker nations were explicitly and absolutely FORBIDDEN.

        But now the situation is SO desperate … and euro-zone leaders are so frightened … they are breaking their most sacred rule.

        Rather than face the music and cut back their own wanton spending, they’ve decided to postpone their day of reckoning and jeopardize their entire union.

        They are deliberately and knowingly sacrificing the euro on the altar for political expediency.

        “Europe cannot afford to rescue Greece.” — Otmar Issing
        And anyone who thinks a Greek bailout will end the crisis, must think again.

        According to Otmar Issing, former member of the European Central Bank’s Executive Board,

        “Once Greece was helped, the dam would be broken. A bailout for the country that broke the rules would make it impossible to deny aid to others.”

        Bottom line: The euro is now between a rock and a hard place:

        Damned if the stronger euro members DO bail out the weaker members: To do so, they will have to print trillions of unbacked euros, which, of course, would crush its value on the world market. And …

        Damned if they don’t: Because allowing Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland and other weak nations to default on their debts would cause a stampede out of euros, which, of course would crush its value on the world market.

        Either way, the trend for the euro is the same. And either way, gold — one of the few refuges euro investors have to escape collapsing currencies — is likely to explode through the roof.

        This kind of volatility is precisely why my team and I created our Million-Dollar Rapid Growth Portfolio — and we are already eyeing an ingenious trade that’s designed to profit BOTH when the euro collapses AND when gold prices explode!

        Tremendous new profit opportunities
        as ALL FIVE major asset classes are impacted
        by the sovereign debt crisis in the weeks
        and months ahead!

        How will investors react as they see dominoes falling — as one nation after another defaults on its debt? As interest rates surge, threatening the recovery?

        How will U.S. stocks react? Which sectors will rise? Which are likely to be hit the hardest?

        How about the euro? How far will it plunge if debt defaults rip through the European Union? Could this great debt disaster be the death sentence for the euro? If so, when?

  3. Tim says:

    Folks, Tasc and Gurdgieve for you here:

    http://www.progressive-economy.ie/2010/02/triple-lock-lifetime-of-debt.html

    http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/

    One, somewhat positive, one predictably scary.

    • Deco says:

      Thanks for reminding me of Gurdgiev.

      Basically he is pointing out again that our exports are declining. (Is this not the responsiblity of the Minister for Trade – Calamity?).

      Basically, unless exports increase soon, there will not be enough money coming in to meet the debt repayments. Interestingly enough, a link I hopped a few links and found that the supply of apartments (as in the rung of the ladder type of accomodation) is rocketing in the four cities (Cork, Galway, Limerick Waterford) and youth unemployment in this category is also well above that of Dublin.

      This is our key problem. The first thing that the NAMA strategy needs in order to get anywhere is for there to be more jobs for the young people in the 20-25 age bracket. This is not happening. It is not happening, because the minimum wage is too high, because our universities are churning out too many Arts graduates/not enough Engineering/Science graduates, and because there is a different work ethic in society post-Boom era. (These are the young people who were reared during the Ahern era).

      And having Coughlan in charge of industrial policy, is not helping matters one bit.

  4. Tim says:

    Folks, if you can, get to a telly and watch TV3 now.

    • wills says:

      Finally someone on irish telly ‘blowing the whistle’ and telling the truth on the actual realities and facts correlating to NAMA.

  5. Tim says:

    Paul Sommerville forecasts second financial crisis this year on Vincent Browne show.

    “W”, here we come……

  6. Tim says:

    Folks, the Roubini article that was claimed as “flawed” on Vincent Browne tonight, by Paul Sommerville:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c81015c4-1034-11df-841f-00144feab49a.html

    • wills says:

      Not a bad read tim, but the cuts in Ireland he refers to in public spending is obtuse.

      A more vigorous investigation on his behalf on this would reveal those cuts are merely side show bob slashes to impress international lenders and nothing to do with government budgeting for a long term future.

  7. wills says:

    Posters.

    Commentator on vincent browne floating the possibility that ‘debt’ forgiveness for Ireland maybe coming through the EU.

    This idea maybe the ‘get out of jail for free’ card for the the interests who bought into the POnzi property pyramid scam.

    It would also create a moral hazard on an untold scale.

    Debt amnesty through EU through to PIIGS and down the slippery POnzi pyramid network is quite a concept.

    Question………….. how do those who stood by prudence and lifestyle and spent as one earned how do you feel about this debt amnesty for the POnzi pyramid participators..??

    • Didn’t catch VB tonight – whose debt is to be forgiven? Mortgageholders? Developers? Govt debt?

      • wills says:

        exactement.

        • Any detail on mechanics?

          • wills says:

            Nope, but. may i be so bold and hazrard a guess my ittle namawinelake friend.

            Order comes down from un high, say BAsle III.

            Order instructs central banks in USA UK and Europe to set their watches in synchronicity and at the pre determined time agreed and on a countdown to zero hit the delete button on the toxic debts all gathered into the bad banks, toxic side holding storage containers and the like and tell the world through the 1984 owned meeja all property owners of a type are now free of debts to a % ratio in line with property values returned to regular non bubbled price.

            ..or something like that.

  8. AndrewGMooney says:

    NAMA as ‘vulture fund’?

    ‘As John Kay points out tellingly in today’s FT: the people of Scotland were never expected to find £500,000 each, to help finance the taxpayers’ massive losses and liabilities as a result of bailing out the biggest private corporate bankruptcy in British history – that of the Royal Bank of Scotland.
    These double standards must end.
    As Kunibert Raffer has argued: it “is the most basic precondition for the functioning of the market mechanism that economic decisions must be accompanied by (co)responsibility: whoever takes economic decisions must also carry financial risks. If this link is severed – as it was in the Centrally Planned Economies of the former East – efficiency is severely disturbed.”’

    http://debtonation.org/2010/02/a-wake-up-call-from-vultures/

    There’s a hierarchy to circling vultures, whether in nature or finance. Just exactly who, or what, is the ‘sarcoramphus papa’ in the context of NAMA? I was never good at Latin. How would one say ‘This Caesar was a Soldier of Destiny’?

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1923/why-do-vultures-circle-dead-stuff

    DMcW: ‘Listening to politicians and bankers/brokers using these figures is like witnessing demented generals in the last stages of a war moving imaginary armies on a map — battalions that have long been vanquished.’

    Above the vanquished battalions, the birds of prey circle, preparing to swoop……Ok, i’ve broken the terms of my parole. It’s midnight, the medics and the ‘police’ are kicking the door down to change my medication regime. Hope this message isn’t blocked. Over and out.

    Mad Paddy From Brum
    20:12, 20/12, 2012

  9. Tim says:

    Folks, the idea posited on #vinb tonight was that there will have to be a sort of amnesty, or debt-forgiveness for the PIIGS because the simple fact of the matter is that what cannot be repaid, cannot BE repaid.

    Simple as that.

    “Cannot be repaid”.

    The moral hazard involved, wills, diminishes in importance when you juxtapose the impossibility of repayment and the “paper-money-or-numbers-on-screen-scamarama” you so often explain.

    When the financial elite finally realises that it has lost the gamble it made and that the system is flawed and that the “money” (hah!) the banks loaned-out simply never existed and so cannot be repaid – ever – they will, simply, have to hit the old “delete” button on the screen there and try to re-boot.

    The suffering of so many people at the moment is pointless; the current government plan cannot work. Repaying all this debt cannot be done.

    • Furrylugs says:

      Going back to Gandhi Tim, from last years discussions, if the whole working population sat down on the job for half a day, thats all it would take to change all this.
      Just half a day.
      Turn up, clock in and sit down.
      Everyone.
      Then the burning whinbush would gather intensity.

      • Furrylugs says:

        And your twitter yokey is the ideal medium to put people on 4 weeks notice of when it’s going to happen. Enough time to talk about it , to decide, to go for it.
        And just about when NAMA will start functioning.

        • Tim says:

          Interesting……. thinking……

        • Tim says:

          Furrylugs, started……

          (Let’s see where this ends-up?)

          • Maybe set up a NoToNAMA twitter account: Twit 1: “28 days to NAMA sit in protest – click www.***.com for more”.
            Need to link it to autofeed LinkedIn, FaceBook, MySpace, WordPress sites too as many people not on Twitter.

          • Furrylugs says:

            The Unions should really be organising this but since they’re Part of the Union of Self Servants (PUSS) and totally divorced from any social activism I’d recognise, off we go ourselves.
            If our Union leaders were taking their role seriously, they’d resign collectively from any role in any semi-state. The failure of the Hanger 6 drama is testament to this.

            The only way it will work
            (An Suí Síos Mór ) is if
            (A) Everyones talking about it. It’s got to grab the imagination.
            (B) It’s kept simple
            (C) It’s got a slogan

            Pennys on the right track. for (A). Enough of traffic and the mainstream press will pick it up. I’m thinking Gene Kerrigan and Sen Ross for example.

            On (B), whats it about? A simple peaceful signal to the powers that be that the people without jobs, homes, hope and those with no voice or representation until the 2012 elections have had enough.

            (C) Sit down to Stand Up???

            Thoughts on a postcard please. No point waiting till Killarney. Might as well launch now.
            After Coughlan informing the BBC of Irish Government policy on recovery, that is, get rid of as many potential people who might vote against us as possible, the time for analysing and anguishing is long gone.
            On emigration, tens of thousands worked like slaves overseas to send money home. That money in rural communities kept people off the dole and propped up the State for decades.

            P Flynn said it; ” Let them go, the best will come back with money”.
            Now Coughlan lets the cat out of the bag again.

            Where’s our F****n Pride.?

          • Deco says:

            Furrylugs – there are trade union representatives on the boards of the Dublin Airport Authority and Aer Lingus.

            MOL asked for Hanger 6 to carry out aircraft maintenance last February. It would have saved the jobs of the SR Technics workers. And the union bosses sat on their hands, while the workers sat in anguish. The union bosses were ideologically opposed to Ryanair therefore they did nothing that might have helped RyanAir – even if it meant saving the jobs of hundreds of Maintenance Engineers and technicians.

            And the union bosses, and their representatives on those boards, are very silent concerning this entire debacle.

            They are a collection of useless, self-serving, politically minded hypocrites.

            And another thing, no mention of their hypocrisy in the media. RTE and the Irish Times are finding this whole Hanger 6 topic hard to handle, and have been soft on Coughlan, relative to how they handled O’Dea and not so clever Trevor.

          • Furrylugs says:

            @Deco,
            All agreed. Hand wringing “something must be done” merchants.
            Incidentally, MOL said the Government “Lied” about Hanger Six
            RTE said he accused them of “Misrepresentation”.
            Surprised he hasn’t picked up on that.

    • wills says:

      Tim.

      Very clearly outlined there.

      This scenario maybe the only conclusion for the controlling interests going forward, for them to salvage the central banking money debt system.

      So, if it is that this is the final destination end game scenario the question provoked will be do they get to keep their central banking train set on the re boot or, do us band of merry men beat them at their own game and check mate the central banking system into extinction.

      Any takers…………………………

      Who wants to carve their name into the pages of history……………

      • I think, a Roosevelt like ” new dea| without kicking central banks to nirvana would be nothing but a re boot of old school thinking, and crucially, a new deal has to include more than europe alone.

  10. John ALLEN says:

    Kerry Blues ( Cows) –

    Their mindset is only – ‘pure natural’ – as Paidi would say . They give good meat and good milk .Enough to sustain any household.They know when their owner/farmer is getting ready to slaughter them and its then they begin to sweat .Apparently it does not do the meat any harm when they do sweat.
    ‘Jazsus’ as Paidi says – when they line up along the avenue to the abatoir waiting – they just go fcuking wild man – you never seen anything like it – they kick and jump and make loud noises above the squeals of the Pigs in the other lane who are waiting their fate too .
    ‘Oh fcuking man ‘ – Paidi continues , ‘you will never forget the fear in their eyes and how their bodies morph into solid stone and I sweat too as I watch yer man in the abatoir click his gun pointing on their heads – and that smell of blood – it gives me the fcuking shivers ‘.

    Killarney is a great meeting place lads.

    • Furrylugs says:

      I can tell you John, if the Kerry cows are shivering, they’ve found a new way of generating electricity to make money over the Mountain.
      The Kerry flies aren’t so much paying rent as investing in NAMA.
      Th whole county didn”t get Entrepreneur of the Year for talking a good fight.
      Lots of clear thinking in those parts………….

  11. [...] is according to Mary White, deputy leader of the party that has ensured the country will be bankrupted by NAMA and has propped up the most corrupt, useless administration in Irish [...]

  12. Deco says:

    This is a classic. How to improve your profit margins Irish style….
    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bank-of-ireland-to-raise-lending-rates-on-loans-and-overdrafts-2078627.html

    No mention of anybody being sacked for incompetence. No mention selling off subsidiaries that have to get visits from directors who love to travel first class. No mention of BoI selling it’s shares in CRH, it’s competitors AIB, and Permo, or any other ISEQ. Because if those shares were sold, then the directors in BoI would not be able to get themselves into second directorships in other companies.

    No instead just get it out of the customer. There I was thinking that the modern Irish concept of managment was dead and buried. And now I find out that it is back with a vengenace. And the most sickening bit is that if they didn’t do this, they would hit us as the taxpayer.

    These people have not been punished, and therefore they will not rid themselves of their corruption. Instead the general public takes the hit. Once again.

    • Furrylugs says:

      If people only knew what to do Deco.
      Get rid of the credit card, pull all money out and into the credit union. request payment by cheque or cash. Apply to switch the mortgage. Etc Etc.
      Everyones personal circumstances are different but everyone should be putting their own personal finances up there with the shopping or running kids to school.
      We’re far too blase about our money.

      • Massey Ferguson says:

        Hi All,
        Been following this blog myself for a long time being greatly educated and entertained.
        I’m an Irish man living in Melbourne currently. (Wll return in a few years)
        Economy is still going strong over here -at the moment – although houses are very over priced.
        I won’t blather on too much but it’s great to see the new posters getting active…..and on board. Has inspired me too.
        Having lived here for 5 years now, I, like many other irish people before me, currently and into the future have gained invaluable insight as to how other cultures live, work, complain, love & worship etc.
        We Irish as a nation are viewed as a great People around the world – and we are, make no mistake about it…. but… as has been well docmented here we MUST now stop being the clowns who ‘MUST’ have the most fun and get serious about what ‘s going on this little island of ours.

        As has been said before we are also a hard working, curious and affable crowd. We’re as smart as any other individuals or nation out there but our tendency to ‘cut corners’ and the ‘sure it’ll be right’ attitude at a generalist level is keeping us down.

        As a People we need to get off our Arses and stop feeling so powerless.
        The POWERBROKERS in Ireland are taking us all to the cleaners with how the Economy is being handled and being managed……
        Please do continue to get the word out to as may as you can guys.

        Thats my rant which was building to what I wanted to highlight:

        http://www.theage.com.au/…/right-man-to-give-power-to-a-peoples-bank-20091222-lbrr.html

        Hope the link works…

        Essentially, OZ is still going through a serious Housing boom….. Resources, current high employment, immigration and Current Govt stimulation are ensuring a wave of confidence that is effervescent to say the least.

        The point to the link is that, even with the fact the Australian Banks shares did ‘tank’ a fair bit in 2008 and 2009 they have recovered and were lauded in the markets for their Sound regulatory practices, The Govt has still seen fit to bring in One of The EX Head Guys (CEO) from National Australia Bank to head up the Government Owned Australia Post in recent months

        The Question I put out there is not , Is Australia going to enter recession or have a tougher time economically in the future but what is the difference with the Australian Government to the Irish Government when you see a strategic move like this being made by a Government….

        Bed Time.

        • Furrylugs says:

          Welcome Massey Ferguson and good points made.
          Tell me, are you the 135 model or the old TVO.
          When we lost TVO, Ireland was on a slippery Oil Debt slope.

          • Malcolm McClure says:

            Welcome MF. I guess you’re the new red diesel model, not the traditional, much-loved grey Ferguie that used the engine out of a fast-back Standard Vanguard.
            Incidentally, Furry, its a pity that the Science Museum display has got the interesting end hidden behind a pillar.
            Now farmers drive around in huge SAME 4 wheel drive machines paid for with EU grants that compensate for ludicrous Set-aside. Their fathers were wary of even the Ferguie, afraid that its wheels would spoil the tilth and drainage of their precious fields, and stuck with the horse plough in all weathers.

        • Deco says:

          Massey Ferguson – welcome on board.
          All comments that advance the level of intellectual discussion.

          Now, I want to tell you something, as somebody who lived in Ireland over the last ten years….I want to advise you on the dangers of an economy putting too much emphasis on construction…..so a warning to everybody in Australia…..housing crashes are awful. Yeah….see lots of wise men in Ireland now who can point out the dangers of a housing crash….in the begining there was only David McWilliams and a few isolated individuals.

          It is the bankers that create the excess of the housing market. Go to the bank headquarters of the biggest mortgage bank in Australia….and take note of what cars they are driving….that should tell how much excess there is in the property market.

          And also see if you can get documentation on the level of interbank borrowing.

          Apart from that there is the old adage….if it is too good to be true…then is is probably a lie…..

        • Furrylugs says:

          “”Wistful sigh”"

          • Massey Ferguson says:

            Thanks for the welcome Guys,

            Furrylugs, LoL, I’m more of a 135 model. The introduction of the Rght/Left Side brake gave me hours of fun in the back yard, though the ole fella was none too impressed with that carry on.

            Deco, I hear you loud and clear and I can see the spin that is currently going on in OZ here. It is travelling along at WARP Speed from every vested interested….. The guys at http://www.moneymorning.com.au are doing their best to throw some water on the frenzy and make the people wake up a little.

            OZ, I believe, has the highest private debt in the world per capita currently. Enough said!
            I know friends of mine, australian nationals, who just recently bought a 4 bed house for nearly 750K. Standard house.

            While I testify to not being so well versed in the dismal science itself, I can certainly see how the vested interests approach the game. OZ is definitely headed for a big fall when many are paying 10 times + their annual income to get a roof under their head.
            The link I added though was to illustrate that even though the Government are playing their part in keeping this going, I feel they are also aware of broader economic scenarios and the banks behaviour, ie Inter Bank Lending and The factt hey see whats coming and are making hay while the sun shines.

            Hence, I put it out there, that they are hedging their bets and proactively planning for the electorate to have choices when it comes to banking in the future.
            I know An Post has been flagged as a National Bank on this forum but never have I read about this in the Mainstream Irish Media Channels.

            Why Not….?

            Work Time.

    • With AIB saying yesterday it wasn’t “inclined” to lend to people who wanted to transfer their mortgages from other institutions (sounds like supermodels not being “inclined” to gtet out of bed for less than $10,000 a day), Halifax departing the market, no new entrants to the Irish market banging on the door, bank lending margins (deposit versus loan rates) at about 1-1.75% compared to 3% traditionally (apparently banks are losing money at an operating level with these margins), let’s get used to this type of behaviour from the government-backed banks – goodbye competition, hello duopoly.

  13. Furrylugs says:

    The good Dr Dose of Reality is on the warpath again.

    http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/

  14. Furrylugs says:

    Has anyone posted this before. Sorry if they have and double sorry to spoil anyones cornflakes.
    This is a scary site.

    http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php

  15. Tull McAdoo says:

    “Just when you thought it was save to go back in the water” da dom da dom…… Its Bubble 2 at a cinema near you. p.s. I’m speaking of the much quoted Swedes of course,,,,,,, We would never be foolish enough to re-inflate a bubble …. would we ??? OOOOOHHHHHH no not an Echo Bubble, and why the hell did they not see that coming. The Swedes are gobshites, there , I’ve SAID IT.
    http://www.thelocal.se/25156/20100223/

  16. Tull McAdoo says:

    JASUS, that was quick , the Swedes just e-mailed me and said that we were gobshites as well……
    http://www.dublinpeople.com/content/view/2954/56/

    • Deco says:

      This justifies the theory that the state’s social housing purchasing is all about propping up the property market…..that in effect our PAYE money is being used to prop up the speculators in the construction sector…the Ballybrit BankHoliday Boyz….

      I am still waiting to be told that the state paid below the market value for something !!!!

  17. Tull McAdoo says:

    I’ve decided to post a link of a short talk given by by old pal of mine about how all this shit happens, worth a look, me thinks.

    http://www.24framesdigital.com/rbi/webcast/120210/session3/william_white.html

  18. Deco says:

    I often wonder what would the other countries do if they had our Minister for Health. Well, here is an indication of what the Germans would expect.
    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/german-church-leader-was-five-times-over-limit-2078568.html

    And now, Mrs. Harney, do you think you might be able toshow a good example to the young people of Ireland by taking note of her example, and doing the honourable thing ?
    (Interestingly enough, Jerry Cowley already asked that question concerning her ovious lack of exercise).

    Maybe we could get the “drinks cabinet” to resign ‘en masse’ ?

    • Deco says:

      Here is a link that you will not see getting any coverage on the pro-EU centralization culture that predominates in the Irish media…..Making fun of a prominent “world leader” is just not acceptable….and besides it would only bring up questions about the state of our own “leadership” (sic)

      The EU is in safe hands….
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fMCTo-GQ2A&feature=related

      If you are an EU enthusiast…you will be shocked….and Sarko is one of the more clued in politicians in the EU !!!!

  19. Deco says:

    { Coughlan, a beneficiary of nepotism and no advertisement for it — her capacity to spout offensive gibberish is unending. It’s a mystery how anyone with such a limited grasp of the English language manages to be so insulting. Yet somehow she manages it. }

    Another article asking for Coughlan to get out the way and stop wasting everybody’s time.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/martina-devlin/martina-devlin-time-to-reshuffle-marys-skills-out-of-harms-way-2078558.html

    The fact is that Ireland is run across the spectrum by people who constitute “a beneficiary of nepotism and no advertisement for it “.

    The article agrees with David’s thesis of insider versus outsider !!!

    • Original-Ed says:

      This is the same old shit the soldiers of destiny (fortune) have got away with for decades. If you’re outside their circle, it’s tough luck – they’ll accept your taxes, though, because that’s the only value you are to them, otherwise you’re only a nuisance and the sooner you bugger off the better.
      Even back in the sixties, teachers couldn’t get a placement if they hadn’t a connection to the party and as for everything else under state control. including the Garda, it was the same story.

  20. Art1980 says:

    Too furry lugs – great name for your campaign “Sit down to Stand Up”. It’s catchy and like Ron Seal marketing it does what it says on the tin.

    • Furrylugs says:

      Thanks Art. Something has to start somewhere. This tomfoolery can’t go on.
      I can’t wait to go on holiday and be called the coward of Europe.
      But you’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s all about marketting and penetration, a bit similar to the Banks spin on NAMA.

      I think FoolishPenny has the nous and drive to scattergun this all over the place but what then?
      We most definitely have the intellectual capacity on here to carry any argument and most have a vested interest to see these charlatans get a good rocket up the proverbial.
      How do we get the country talking about the idea.
      It’s tried and tested.
      Gandhi got rid of the biggest Empire just by peacefully sitting down.
      And a huge question to consider. Sitting down in the workplace will alienate all those latent workers unfortunate enough to lose their jobs. How to include those 500000?

      Questions and few answers.

      • Tim says:

        Furrylugs, I have been spinning it through twitter since last night and it is slowly gaining traction, getting passed on and RT’d (repeated);

        Let’s have more people open an a/c and join in, please.

        I cannot do any facebooking, blog posts, etc., during the day because the web-filter in work blocks all such sites except twitter.

        Foolish Penny, I expect that you are happy to take care of that end of things, for now?

        • Furrylugs says:

          I’m just doing a wills and getting the hang of Facebook. I’ve two friends already and haven’t attracted any Byelorussian patriarchs looking to sell me icons or all that jazz.
          So fair enough, it’s not like signing up to a Chinese e-commerce site.

          Seriously, I was trying to post it on Constantin Gurdievs site but no luck yet.
          How do we include all the unemployed workers??
          Where will they sit down?
          Methinks do this on a Tuesday and they can choke every dole office in the land??

          • Furrylugs says:

            Actually, one or more of the more prosaic contributors here might come up with a form of words as a consistent message?

            We’ve had “Taking the Tough Decisions” and “Stabilising the Public Finances” and “Systemic Importance” and all that verbal effluent.
            I’m sure we could come up with better counter-spin than that.

            “Stand down to Wake Up”??
            Suggestions on a postcard.

        • Happy to help any way I can.

          Tim – perhaps we could link Twitter to a Facebook group, LinkedIn profile – and something similar for MySpace, Bebo etc. So one Tweet gets replicated via reTweets (RTs) and also on various other social networks.

          I think the “hub” could be a Facebook group – this could tally followers, and we could even add a “donate” function if we wanted to raise funds for old-media advertising.

  21. John ALLEN says:

    Holy Orders

    We are now at the point on this blogg where the Monks were in 800 ad in captivity .What they resorted to was …..the medieval internet and produced Book of Kells and others and they also wrote the Barbaric tongue giving it characters from their knowledge of Latin – thus the first German Bible was printed by Irish Monks that included new characters created by the monks and only now still used in Icelandic namely Þ and ð used at the beginning of a word and the end of a word respectively and was devised as their weapon to teach Christianity to the Vikings – they were very adaptable even in captivity .
    We find ourselves today also held in captivity and trying to emulate their skills to be free again from bondage.

  22. John ALLEN says:

    Wheel Come Round

    The year 800 and the year 2010 show remarkable resemblance

    Vikings
    German
    Captivity
    Internet
    Bankrupt
    New Letters – twitter – google- mobile phones
    Iceland
    Europe
    Sacred Laws attacked
    Leadership overturned – lost control
    Insiders etc

    • Furrylugs says:

      Well they say it’s all cyclical John.
      What are you like twittering?

      I suppose the Book of Kells was the twitter of it’s day – a kind of condensed Christianity for a Dark Age.

      • John ALLEN says:

        furrylugs – I am in dark ages where twitter and facebook are concerned – maybe I lost something on site in Dun Aengus ( in another time ) that will give me back my quasar energy .In any event you are searching for the ghandi karma to inspire your flock to rise and follow the sun where it shines forever.

        • Furrylugs says:

          Either I’m looking for the old ghandi karma or we all need a kick in the arse.

          There’s 500,000 gone already and anyone who thinks they’re safe, think again.

          As for anyone afraid of upsetting the boss, he’s in the same boat as everyone else. Up Dun Aengus without a paddle.

          • Furrylugs says:

            And the Guru Mararaji McWilliams has called for “Stop” so we’ll all sit down.

            And before any doubt crosses the collective mindset, I’m deadly serious. Mc Williams isn’t writing this stuff to win an Oscar.

            “The future depends on what we do in the present.”
            Mahatma Gandhi

  23. John ALLEN says:

    Encryted

    þ = the christian message of from the ‘breath of life comes life .

    ð = the christian message of ‘ suffering of christ as he carries the cross on his shoulders going to become crucified’.

  24. Art1980 says:

    Foolish penny and gang, I think your right to have a central hub for this campaign. Facebook is a good choice, as most young people seem to have a profile these days. Perhaps David could highlight the campaign at the end of each of his articles. This is a marketing campaign trying to gather the attention of as many as possible. Once the numbers grow this formum can then become a real voice.

  25. Lighthouse says:

    Role of ECB
    A lot of noise was (conveniently?)made about how nice the EU and the ECB is to Ireland,
    eg during the Lisbon debate.

    Yet it seemed (and seems) a condition for ECB loans to the Irish banks, that the banks were not made bankrupt/nationalised to remove their debt
    Why?
    Follow the money….

    To who do the Irish banks owe money,
    where are those international bondholders located…and so how friendly are they with the ECB?

  26. cbweb says:

    @lighthouse

    Agree with your thought process there.

    Seems NAMA has us happily indentured for life to the ECB and through the ECB to NAMA bondholders.

    Bit like the Sheriff of Nottingham relationship to the local
    peasantry.

    Suggest we have a national holiday the day NAMA gets ratified by Clowen and JOAQUÍN ALMUNIA AMANN
    COMMISSIONER FOR ECONOMIC
    & FINANCIAL AFFAIRS.

    We should name this holiday, National Cuckoo Day, the day on which NAMA(Not Another Mess Again) monster bird begins its monstrous stealing of taxpayers money.

    Ah well, someone has to pay for stealing the future from our children, to pay for the losses incurred by criminally negligent Irish politicians and bankers…the taxpayer has to pay!

    No thanks, Clowen & Co, you gotta go!

  27. Greece:

    The banks are at it again, gambling on Greece is in full motion. According to a report in the german magazine Der Spiegel, Credit Suisse, SUB, Deutsche Bank, Societe Generale, and BNP Paribas are using the iTraxx SovX Index to gamble on Greece going bust.

    http://www.markit.com/en/products/data/indices/credit-and-loan-indices/sovx/sovx.page

    Essentially, performing the same gamble that brought down Lehmann brothers.

    This index, was, how fucking convenient, developed by Goldman Sach and JP Morgan in September 2009.

    The bloody banks now bet against Greece Folks, this is what I meant, we can not solve the problems on Irish soil alone.

    So, if Greece goes bust, those who own the CDS, credit default swaps, will make significant profits, hence the greek bankruptcy is in their very interest!

    Yes, I hear you, theoretically their CDS papers would be worthless if Greece goes bust, but as long as they can pay, and this will be helped by the EU, they will make their profit.

    No one has intervened with this form of “trading”, and no one seems to stop the banks in their unethical behaviour.

    Nothing changed. It is the banks and their powers that need to be cut down, interbank trading and speculation needs to be monitored and regulated in these areas, to avoid them to do what they are doing now, exactly the same that Lehmann brothers did.

    A fucking disgrace.

    • I would love to be a fly on the wall in AIB and BOI etc. I would not be astonished in the least if they are in it as well!!!!!!!

      We need more whistle blowers to come forward, and we FINALLY need legal protection for whistle blowers in Ireland which is blocked on a political stage, deliberately blocked.

    • cbweb says:

      similar to a (denial of service) attack DOS on the internet, anyone remotely connected to a CDS found involved should be automatic jail and confiscation of goods. The system is corrupt and exposed to fraud without any proper systemic regulation..totally crazy what trading can get away with on derivatives and CDS manipulation of markets. The finger prints of the big behemoth trading banks should be forensically examined to see if their traders are responsible

      • cbweb says:

        CDS interests should have their trading activities audited/investigated to show their hands are clean.

        • cbweb says:

          @laughingbear

          Seems all the major banks are at it

          “The overall amount of insurance on Greek debt hit $85 billion in February, up from $38 billion a year ago, according to the Depository Trust and Clearing Corporation, which tracks swaps trading.”

          The more CDS is taken out the riskier the markets perceive the underlying security of loans and the less likely a country will be bailed out.

          Lack of regulation of ever more complex financial instruments packaging paper into casino chips for speculators to play and exploit at global expense. CDS just another toy that damages markets.

          How long can this last?

          • wills says:

            cbweb.

            Its another scam to juice the central banking paper money confidence trick.

            Everything revolves around this.

            They run with it and run with it and run with, the new scam, until it hits the bricks and no longer works.

            Before side bets on the market it was insider trading.

            Before insider trading it was insider trading.

            This time though its happening in impunity and robbing the public purse alongside preserving the scamming in perpetuity.

  28. wills says:

    Furrylugs.

    ‘How do we get the country talking about the idea.’

    Agreed.

    We have to,

    - Decide what the talking point is, exactly.

    - Decide in what way to formulate the words to communicate the idea.

    -Decide how the formulated idea is communicated.

    - Stick to 1,2,3

    Do this and I am on board.

    • Furrylugs says:

      Post #14 Wills explains some.
      Tims already put it on Facebook and as far as I understand these things, Foolishpenny has put it everywhere else.!!!

      “Sit Down to Stand Up” is the unopposed working slogan at the moment unless anyone has something snappier.
      Nationwide half day stoppage in Mid March about the time NAMA kicks in preceded by every attempt to raise awareness. If that just means telling people you meet then thats good. Twitter might work or Facebook but unless the media grab it, it’s a no go. It would need a respected “face” to front it.
      Gaybo sitting down in front of Leinster House in protest would certainly help??

      You get the picture.

      • Malcolm McClure says:

        I get the picture. How about the slogan:
        “If together we sit, piles will come”
        No……This isn’t India. On second thoughts, if you guys are serious you need to Fast them out.
        (Its an old Celtic mode of protest)

        • John ALLEN says:

          the protest should start with a few who do something that gets attention somewhere in Dublin and in good time another protest commences

        • wills says:

          Come on Malcolm you can do better than that man.

        • Furrylugs says:

          Serious Malcolm?
          One thousand euro per second going down the drain, our “knowledge economy” has just had it’s student loans increased, demoralised Guards, Gun crime rife, OAPs afraid to buy coal, the best leaving and the rest suffering repossession and suicide. All led to the cliff by a one party State hell bent on self preservation.

          Yes Malcolm. I’m deadly serious.

          • Malcolm McClure says:

            Perhaps I have misunderstood your point Furrylugs or you have mistaken mine, so let’s try again.

            Nationwide half-day stoppage in mid-March so that people can sit outside Leinster House for half an hour, then wander home for a mug of warm cocoa. It just doesn’t sound very revolutionary to me.

            The most significant protest during the entire northern troubles was the hunger strike in the Maze. This would have been much more effective if it had been done by an outsider on their behalf, rather than by the prisoners themselves. Such was the method in the old Celtic realms by which a protestor would put pressure on the powers that be, if he were passionate about injustice affecting another person. Do you feel strongly enough about the flow of funny money, student loans, drug violence, OAPs and well-paid garda to fast to the death for them if necessary?
            That is a ‘deadly’ serious decision.

          • Tim says:

            Malcolm McClure, I am surprised. You appear to suggest that 1) Gardaí are “well paid” for the job they do/risks they take on our behalf (which begs the questions, “Why aren’t you a member of the force?” and “What gross salary, precisely, do you consider as ‘well-paid’?”); and 2) The only valid form of protest is one that will/may end in the death of the protestor.

            What is wrong with this picture?

          • Malcolm McClure says:

            Tim: We are agreed that we don’t like the results looming around us of a global economic crisis that has left few countries untouched. The pattern in most western countries is similar and not unique to Ireland.

            Many people here seek to place the blame for our woes squarely on FF and the bankers, when actually they were caught on a runaway low-interest rate Euro bus and we were willy nilly dragged along behind.
            Nevertheless, despite their many mistakes, FF & G remain the democratically elected government, with responsibility to sort out this mess. As participants in the Euro zone and particularly after Lisbon, they are heavily constrained in what room they have for manoeuvre.

            There has been much chatter here about changing economic policies by holding a protest. However there is no agreement about whether change should result from shuffling ministers, or by forcing an early election.
            If the latter, there are no indications that an alternative regime would be any different, as it would be facing the same realities.

            It seems therefore that the alternative you are seeking is a revolutionary shredding of treaties, rescinding the constitution, and the establishment of a radical alternative that will somehow establish its own currency overnight.

            There are two ways to bring about radical change. Either there are riots and assassinations or you try the non-violent Fast method to bend the will of the government and change their policies on specific issues.

            I’m sorry Tim, but those don’t make sense to me in current circumstances. People need to keep cool heads in a crisis and the blame game being played out here ad infinitum is just a lot of p**s and wind.

      • wills says:

        Setting up an ANTI NAMA twitter account is really good idea.

        What NAMA is in the cold light of day and communicating it back against the media spin.

        So, fixing NAMA is the headlights for what it actually really is in the cold light of day.

        What exactly is NAMA.

        We know on the surface narrative it is the following

        - NAMA is a ‘waste disposal unit’ for the banks to cast off debts the bank want rid of.

        But then one can peel of this layer and find the next reality, which is, I believe the following

        -NAMA the waste disposal unit a dump site for the banks to rid the debts is a disguised mass writing down of and deleting of debts on the banks books.

        Then one will ask, why are the banks hiding the deleting of debts.

        And one then can answer, because the banks do not want the people to know they can very easily delete the debts.

        Why do they not want the people to know that it is very easy for the banks to delete debts.

        Then one is waking the sheep up.

        • wills says:

          THen one is getting close to waking the sheep up if one can get the sheep asking the question, why NAMA, why cover up debt deletion, why do the banks not want me to know about debt deletion,.. sheep now asking the right questions and a wising up will gather its own momentum.

      • ian says:

        Stand
        Together
        Or
        Perish

  29. John ALLEN says:

    Frying Junk in Greece

    By the arrival of the full moon at the end of march Greek Bonds will be just all Junk….until then enjoy this full mmon this week end.

  30. wills says:

    How about,

    NAMA IS GRAND LARCENY………!!!!

  31. Tim says:

    Folks, Gurdgieve asks, “Is EU Commission out to lunch when it comes to economic analysis?”

    http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com

  32. Tim says:

    Folks, I am told Ronan Lyons will be on Primetime tonight – will he savage Coughlan?

  33. Fergal73 says:

    McNamara and O’Reilly are valuing their property portfolios at 2006 levels and claim it is appropriate.

    I’m delighted to read they “are aware of the sudden deterioration in the financial and economic environment, but nevertheless believe the valuation is correct.”

    Are they smoking the whacky baccy, while taking E with a side of LSD? Or maybe they are very cunningly trying to inflate the price so that the NAMA bail-out is a bit higher?

    • Deco says:

      Too right…there was a property market in 2006…there is none now. The young people are waiting on the sidelines watching the entire thing fall continually. And they are looking at the empty estates. And they know well, they could land a bargain if they get this right.

      And the authorities want to spoil it on them. Well I suppose that is what authority is all about. Creating justification for it’s existence by needlessly interfering and messing everything up.

      Oh yeah, and the state is buying these houses for the people at above market values, so as to solve a social need. If the state got out of the way, the people would be able to solve everything out for themselves. The whole this is well…to use David’s term…’larceny’.

      Even a donkey grazing in a field could think of a better policy.

      The entire scam is an attempt to prop up the consumer confidence trick. In fact Consumer Confidence is the Holy Grail of all parts of the political establishment. And it is a disaster.

  34. Fergal73 says:

    I’ve been advising emigration since well before the bubble burst. Ireland went off course somewhere between 1998 and 2001. Property valuations at 2006 levels my a$$. I think 1996 is more likely.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/martina-devlin/martina-devlin-time-to-reshuffle-marys-skills-out-of-harms-way-2078558.html

  35. John ALLEN says:

    Kerry Blue ( Cows) – aka bog hole economics –
    another day after the day before after the slaughter those merciless killers carried out in their acts without a conscience in an abatoir of killing fields and the smell of blood remains in the stenched air as the new morning henchman lights another cigarette to puff another challenge to his ‘rights of reason’ in doing his murderous job.
    The skin man arrives in an open lorry that smells around for miles and uploads the carcasses of the day before that no one wants , even the dogs would dither at the thought .The henchman takes more caffeine and downs it with strong coffee as he knows the new arrivals of the next herd of Kerry Blues are due soon.The yard is swept and hosed to remove the smell of blood in advance of their arrival and there is a scurry to finish it quicky as the noise of the aproaching herd lorry is heard in the distance .
    The Ovens are opened to test their temperature and closed only to be open again after the next Kerry Blue is ‘clicked in the head’ and then hung and quartered along a rotary line into the oven.That blast of heat resonates once more as it scorches the lifeless body and burns the tiny folichles of hair on its skin.
    More smells more stench all evaporates into the air in this murderous prison of hell.

  36. John ALLEN says:

    D Big Match Saturday

    The heavens have already predicted another

    SLAUGHTER

  37. Incident says:

    While sit down or marching protests are worthwhile….they are momentary. Media coverage is minimal if any and will only get a good blast effect if you have 10′s of thousands involved. This is clearly not immediately achievable due to our nature.

    I would suggest that a prolonged strategy of building public awareness such as a massive co-ordinated survey / vote (NOT ONLINE – NEVER TRUSTED)

    The ideal situation would be to design a short, clinical and transparent set of user friendly questions / voting questions about the entire saga. Then engage the masses by simply asking them to answer / vote.

    Only way of engineering this is at ultra local level is by engaging community groups and their facilities nationally. Schools, clubs, parish halls, colleges, universities. This process would obviously not be governed by our over18 voting laws and the 16+ category are now very aware of what is happening.

    The big step is starting…we need a steering committee and then generate funds to proceed.

    I have no political party affiliation but would not rule out an enthusiasm for such a project by the opposition parties. Unioins would also get involved.

    I appreciate that this is just a sketch but I believe that it warrants some form of attention and tweaking.

    Am I making any sense?

    • Furrylugs says:

      Perfect sense Incident.
      This site has done the thing to death over the last two years and more. It’s been a great eye opener for me.
      I think my point is that, we don’t want more of the same. Even if FG/ILP win the next election they have no fear of the people. FF will regroup and win the following election. Bit like the magic roundabout.
      If the Irish people are happy with this, then forget the whole thing but I suspect there’s a lot of anger out there without a voice. Like you, I have no political affiliations.
      I could pick a cross party cabinet and leave the rest but still they would carry on sam same. The political focus is all wrong. Too cosy, too accomodating and too stupid.
      There’s a tsunami of personal debt, depression , lack of pride and division rolling across the country but those cossetted by power chose Ostrich Politics, hoping it will all sort itself out.
      You could drive a district heating system with all the pious hot air coming from Kildare St.
      “This is clearly not immediately achievable due to our nature.”
      Probably so though giving voice to the “plain people of Ireland” might surprise you.
      Many thanks for the contribution. I’m suggesting a peaceful, legal course of action to send a clear message. I, like many others are simply trying to fill the fridge and it’s difficult to step outside the zone, but something tells me I have to have a go, if only for those with no voice.
      All 500,000 of them.
      Many thanks,
      F

    • Is it not too late for all this? Very disheartening, looks like the EU Commissioner is handing down his ruling as early as today.

      If he gives green light, NAMA will be enforced.

  38. Furrylugs says:

    @Malcolm above.
    First of all, as with Incident, thanks for taking the time to consider the argument. I take your point about the hunger strikes but these took place after a decade of civil rights abuses and for a different metric. The battle of wills between Thatcher and Sinn Fein.
    We’re in a totally different place where our domestic democracy has gone stale. I’m not suggesting “off-the-wall” extreme measures. We have no election for two years and untold damage could occur in that time. ook at the billions squandered in the last two years to cover up for the billions mis-spent in the last ten years.

    If I had the answer, I’d be off doing things myself. The suggestion I have is that we adopt a simple one day tactic that sent a shock wave through the British Empire. That the majority of the people have had enough and will not voluntarily cross the NAMA Rubicon.
    TheIcelandic people have just achieved the same peacefully. They universally rejected a bankers deal for bankers which would have unfairly penalised working citizens who had no hand in the activities of Landsbanki or Kaupthing.
    The Greeks have said no also. They’ve said “Lets sit down and be sensible here”. David has often alluded to the fact that international finance works differently to pariamentary democracy. That is, getting screwed on the bond markets is part and parcel of the game. Screwing octogenarians for their madical cards should not be dragged into the equation.
    I hope that clarifies where I’m at. I left student union reactionary demos behind an unfortunately long time ago.
    As Irish people, if we don’t stand up and say no, just for once, well then as a nation, we are truly sheep.
    F

    • John ALLEN says:

      furrylugs -

      before the Icelandic debacle became obvious I had been on to my friends in Iceland to do something and then they did nothing – they thought I was over reacting if not nuts .It was only after the full event materialised and the banks closed the monday after their prime minister had said on their friday late late show that their banks were secured – that the reality arrived …..then they started their protest.
      I think it will take the same to happen here .People in the moment of NOW have sheep minds .There is nothing you can do about it furrylugs.
      Take it as a Horror Movie

      • Furrylugs says:

        The “Seven Stages” John;-

        1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

        2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

        3. From courage to liberty;

        4. From liberty to abundance;

        5. From abundance to complacency;

        6. From complacency to apathy;

        7. From apathy to dependence;

        8. From dependence back into bondage

        The country is somewhere between 6 + 7 at the moment.

      • Deco says:

        John – it is the same now, as it was in the declining days of the Roman Empire….people reassured tehmselves that it was business as usual….the debts were built up….the system seized up as a result of bureacracy….everybody was looking fro something for nothing….intellectual debate faded to the point that it simply did not exist…..and the people queued up to get into the Colluseum….Bread and Circusese……Let the games begin….so that the intellectual analysis will stop….and the rot will get swept under the carpet.

        • Furrylugs says:

          And drink clouded reality. Easier to get stuck in a pint than get off the chair and do something………….

          • Deco says:

            That is correct. The idea that you deal with the impending disaster by backing down, submitting to the authorities, and burying feelings of powerless in something distractional.

            Dumbing down is part of the cultural reinforcement process.

  39. cbweb says:

    Another angle on this if anyone can give me the picture is the so-called blanket guarantee that covered FF Anglo cronies?

    It annoyed Europe that Ireland acted without consulting them. It should annoy taxpayers they were not consulted!!

    My question is, what is the legal basis that gives Government the power to provide blanket guarantees or speculate crazilty with the country’s finance’s?

    Are there no legislative or constitutional limits that prevent Government betting the whole lot on any crazy idea that will put taxpayers into perpetual servitude?

    Who regulates Government, what happens to democracy in the above scenario?

    Maybe we need a new constitution to protect taxpayers?

    • Furrylugs says:

      That very relevant question brings us back to the Government totally ignoring the guiding principles for social equality set out in Article 45 of the Constitution.
      To wit :-
      2. The State shall, in particular, direct its policy towards securing:

      i. That the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs.

      ii. That the ownership and control of the material resources of the community may be so distributed amongst private individuals and the various classes as best to subserve the common good.

      iii.That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.

      iv. That in what pertains to the control of credit the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole.

      v. That there may be established on the land in economic security as many families as in the circumstances shall be practicable.

      • John ALLEN says:

        Furrylugs – I agree .Were concerned voices to write by registered post to the T-shock ( and other party leaders ) and remind him of his duties to each of the writers of the letter – then might there be a legal precedence set in stone to STOP the enactment of the legislation .Lets think about this .

      • cbweb says:

        so NAMA ( not another mess again ) in breach of i – v

        with a possible high court class action on foot of NAMA in breach of iii on behalf of taxpayers

        • Furrylugs says:

          Unfortunately, when Ministers were taking A45 into consideration to develop laws, it’s written in that A45 cannot be challenged in court. This is now being paradoxically twisted into Ministers that quite obviously do not consider A45 cannot be brought before the Beak either.
          Rotten doesn’t even come close.

  40. Deco says:

    Listening to the Plank Show. There is a new debacle involving a noisy member of the FF Party directly affronting an FF Minister. Gerry Beads versus Noel Dempsey. Dempsey is in serious serious trouble.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ff-official-calls-for-cabinet-to-be-sacked-447759.html

    Beads has also asked for the resignation of a long list of people in the various local authorities in Co. Dublin. He also talked about ‘deadwood in the cabinet’.

    Surprised that Coughlan has lasted this week. She has been kept out of circulation as much as possible. RTE have downplayed the Hanger 6 issue. And the Irish Times have buried the entire event until saturation coverage of Trevor Seargant and other non-stories… It is ironic, but the Green TD for Fingal has come in handy in covering up a sham that is costing hundreds of maintenance engineers their futures in Fingal. The opportunism and the coverups stink !!!!

    • Furrylugs says:

      Yet still MOL has said last night that there are 200 jobs still possible. I know he’ll want his terms but are those terms any worse than the Pharma / Medicare production lines?

      • Deco says:

        I want to know what bit of “200 jobs” Mary Coughlan (the so called Minister for Employment) does not understand.

        If she does not trust MOL, it never entered her head, that she could let him proceed and call his bluff. What a muppet ?

        This is capitalist private sector investment. The investor always calls their terms. Coughlan’s attitude makes it abundantly clear why the attempt at rescuing Dell was a disaster. Coughlan simply does not get business. I found the statement from Coughlan “I asked MOL for the business plan – I want to see the RyanAir business plan” unbelievable. This is the type of ‘reassure the public by saying the correct thing’ PR stunt that makes me laugh.

        Coughlan knows nothing about business !!! Coughlan is a muppet. Coughlan should do the get out of the way in the hope that this mess might be cleared up !!!

        Coughlan should know that you do not dictate terms on this sort of investment proposal. You grab it with both hands.

        • Furrylugs says:

          If MOL was a little more exotic like say, an Arab Shiekh, he’d have had a better hearing. Our lot are so parocial, they get seduced by outside parties throwing beads. Look at what happened with all the other FDI. A Jolly to Texas or Dubai is much more exciting than tea in Mullingar.
          So much for encouraging the Diaspora to invest at home.
          What message does this send out to the Farmleigh attendants?
          If I was still abroad, I’d stay there.

  41. Deco says:

    Meanwhile….life continues in Irish Banking….pretty much as normal…..wasters covering theri ass, and continuing their careers….they have learnt that incompetence does not get you fired…..but having an outright conflict of interest might be a problem….therefore resolve the conflict of interest in some way….and trundle on….getting carried by the taxpayer….

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0226/1224265202933.html

    This practice needs to be stopped.

  42. Deco says:

    As David predicted earlier….Harry Norman will leave Ireland….
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0226/breaking5.html

    When you hear the official denial, then you know, with absolute certainty that the rumours are true : )

    • Furrylugs says:

      Halifax, Harry Norman et al. Nor’n Iron looks like being the competitive business provider for the Island??

      • Deco says:

        Hilarious….I think I remember Halifax making a statement months ago saying that they were “committed to Ireland” also…..it has become a bit of a standard procedure of retrenchment….

        Plus, Harry Norman’s biggest problem….people are learning to scale back and live within their means…

        • Furrylugs says:

          After your post Deco, Mrs Furry is above in the Kitchen on the netbook looking for Harvey Norman stock sell off.
          Tis an ill wind……….

        • Furrylugs says:

          Might have to be a bit more careful about the posts Deco.
          I don’t mind a knock on the door in the middle of the night telling me I’m blaspheming the State but being dragged off by Mrs F to Harvey Norman in the middle of the day is a bit much!
          F out.

    • G says:

      Unsustainable losses.

      I thought this site was losing if for a while, but it seems to have come back strong, so useful information and informative posts. Best to all -

      G Man

  43. Tim says:

    Folks, this just in from DMcW:

    http://bit.ly/c7jatk

  44. Art1980 says:

    Joaquin Almunia has given the green light for Nama. Brian hoping for transfers by end of March. What can we irish people learn from our Icelandic neighbours when it comes to unity. Perhaps we have have been dumbed down with our plasma T.V’s and fail to recognise the importance of community. For 800 years we were the bully boy of England, it’s saddness here to have our backs to the wall by our very own. As one poster had commented, there was a national out cry when Henry’s hand ball we viewed by a nation (watch more television but stay of of politic affairs boys and girls).

    • Furrylugs says:

      What are the conditions Art…..or are there any??

    • Well Folks,

      honestly, having written to the guy, needless to say no answer received, I feel like a fool.

      There should have been an irish petition, collecting thousands of signatures to stop NAMA. Now, it is inevitable.

      Message: Dear Mr. Almunia, Respectfully, I urge you, re consider a positive ruling on the Irish government plans to implement NAMA. The plan is flawed from the ground up, there are significant numbers of irish people opposing this ridiculous plan. The problems have to be tackled from an entirely different side. Now, as we can clearly see, Credit Suisse, USB BNP, Paribas and more banks are playing the very same game again that brought down Lehmann brothers. They are gambling massive sums on Greece to become bancrupt, by purchasing credit default swaps, utilizing the index that so conveniently was introduced by Goldmann Sachs and JP Morgan in September 2009. Allowing NAMA to take place in it’s proposed form, you would allow the Irish government to purchase an asset portfolio that is extremely over priced, burdening generations of citizens, allowing the banks to continue performing their gambles and inter bank trading. The prize proposed for the assets to be taken over by NAMA can not be described other than criminal, at least this is what Joseph Stiglitz, ex chief economic officer worldbank, expressed as well. The government in Ireland is crumbling commissioner, it is corrupt and performing turf wars instead of solving problems, serving an insider business circles only, it has failed it’s duties to the Irish people. It will not surrvive the next coming 6 months. If NAMA is allowed to happen in it’s proposed form, you are ruining Ireland for generations to come, please allow more time of re consideration before handing down a ruling that is the most important Ireland has faced since it has formed it’s constitution. Respectfully Georg

    • Deco says:

      Amunia is preoccuppied with keeping up all the houses of cards in Europe in general, and the biggest house of cards of all, Spain in particular.

      The deal was that the Irish Establishment would deliver Lisbon for the EU Commision, and the EU Commision would deliver NAMA for the Irish Establishment. The PAYE taxpayer gets rolled over both ways by authority.

      To paraphrase James Howard Kunstler welcome to the “clusterfuck” society. Nothing gets solved. Every problem gets absorbed into the tax revenue system, and the vested interests carry the day.

      • The deal was that the Irish Establishment would deliver Lisbon for the EU Commision, and the EU Commision would deliver NAMA for the Irish Establishment. The PAYE taxpayer gets rolled over both ways by authority.

        More than likely, more than likely….

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