On Monday afternoon, I came across an old lady sobbing as she scribbled a few loving notes onto a small wooden cross. Seeing that I noticed her, she wiped the tears and tried to pull herself together in true Scottish fashion, quite prim, but stern. She brushed down her pleated tartan skirt and tucked her scarf in around her collar to keep out the vicious north wind, which howled through the Scott Monument at the Garden of Remembrance in the centre of Edinburgh.
Who was she crying for — a son, a husband, a brother or maybe her own father? Where was she when she got the dreaded letter, the phone call or the hand on her shoulder? As she scribbled away lovingly, she was joined by other elderly people who came to remember, to pay respects and to say goodbye again.
These stoic old soldiers with their poppies and their memories were oblivious to the giggling Chinese tourists who clicked their cameras at the old men in kilts.
While the old Scots laid their wreaths and remembered their loved ones, it struck me that the two phenomena on display that blustery Edinburgh afternoon — rich Chinese tourists and elderly western Europeans — will dominate politics in the decades ahead.
In fact, there is a certain historical symmetry between the two phenomena because nowadays the Chinese are doing to America and the West what America did to Britain and Europe after the Second World War: they are buying assets. China is using her economic might to take advantage of an enfeebled America, just as America used its economic might to take advantage of a devastated Europe in 1945.
In many ways, both the old Scots and the young Chinese tourists are testament to the changing world.
We in Ireland can’t escape these trends. A few weeks ago, this column addressed the idea of China buying assets with all the dollars she has accumulated. Now let’s look at the ageing population issue and consider both the problems and the opportunities it might present.
In Ireland, we are getting older and surviving longer. For example, in 1986 the average man lived for 12.6 years after his retirement. By 2006, the average man lived 16.6 years after retirement. This is a 32pc increase in just 20 years. The State’s liability on pensions has also gone the wrong way as the pension age was dropped from 70 to 66 in 1970, when the population dynamics were different.
The thing about paying for our state pension is that it creeps up on you. It is not a thing you have to pay in one lump, rather every year, it just gets that little bit more expensive. The Comptroller and Auditor General’s Report last week calculated that the state pension will cost us €101bn over the next 50 years.
That’s a big number. Just to put that in perspective, €101bn is €230,593 for every hour of every day for the next 50 years just to pay our public sector pensions. So the rest of the workforce has to generate a surplus of €230,593 every hour for the next 50 years just to pay the pension commitments we have already entered into.
But what are we to do? It’s all very well to talk about pension reform when you are my age because it seems far away. But when I (hopefully) get to 65, I would love to have my full pay and I will be as protective of it and vociferous as I am today about national school funding (because my children go to the local national school). It is only human to realise that your position on all these matters is somewhat jaundiced by whether you benefit from them.
It is clear that the State, particularly as we all get older, will not interfere with pensions. Therefore the shortfall will have to come from more taxation on the young to pay for the old. We did try to address this issue with the National Pension Reserve Fund but extraordinarily the temptation to raid that particular piggybank was succumbed to this year to recapitalise the likes of Anglo Irish Bank. That money is now gone, possibly forever.
While much detail is focused on the state pension and public sector pension, the private sector pension position isn’t much better. Take the privatised Aer Lingus, for example. Last year, the company had to top up its pension by €29.3m just to keep the thing afloat. This is a huge ongoing liability for the company and the same is true of many companies.
So it’s clear that the average worker from the Pope’s Children generation faces a higher tax bill to pay for those of us older than them, and will be the first generation of Irish people to be poorer on retirement than their parents.
But is there something we can do about it? If all of Europe is getting old, why don’t we invest in geriatric care and make this place the old folks’ home of western Europe? It might sound strange with our climate, but it must be remembered that more elderly people die in the heatwaves of Europe,than ever die of the cold.
By old folks’ home I mean specialising in medicine for elderly people and specialising in the care of the elderly. Ireland has lots of spare housing estates where no one wants to live. We could create retirement villages in many of these empty houses and do deals with the NHS, for example, to look after some of Britain’s burgeoning pensioners.
Big demographic changes always present opportunities as well as threats and the opportunity in geriatric care is enormous, as well as humane.
Strange as it may seem, the next generation of elderly Scots who place poppies in remembrance around this time of year, could present a medical and employment opportunity for thousands of young Irish people who find themselves on the wrong side of the Celtic Tiger binge.
Folks, I may be wrong here, but, I am detecting a kind of malaise, becoming the REAL “pandemic” (rather than the rubbish about the swine-flu in the meeja: more people have died of the ordinary ‘flu this year than the swine-thingy we are all being encoursged to panic about!).
The malaise I am detecting is depression.
Is there a chance that the ordinary Irish people are suffering from a form of “collective depression”? As a result (maybe planned?) of the continual bombardment by the govt and meeja with negative vibes, ordinary, decent, hard-working people are caught within anger/fear/depression about what has been done to them.
The “creative thinking” that DMcW refers to in this article cannot occur unless we re-educate ourselves, lift ourselves out of this mire and come-up with something different.
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
I think that http://www.spiritofireland.ie is a great, new thing to “do”.
Maybe, have a look?
Tried that 9 months ago Tim.
Bit academic.
I’m making more headway working locally, person to person, where personal credibility and delivery rather than spin and statistics carry the day.
Cooperative Community and all that. Anything nationalised is avoided like the plague due to the level of half useless non achievers, the cholestoral of commerce.
Furrylugs, Yes. I am finding the same. Am just concerned about the lack of “joined-up-thinking”.
Also, bear in mind that hundreds-of-thousands-of-people are not yet where readers of this site were, 9 months ago.
Hell, many are not where these readers were 2 years ago; some do not yet even smell the trouble.
Folks, I think that DMcW is willing to accept the “Flak” that he did not host the comedy show that is “The Panel” very well, as comedy tonight.
I think that he took the platform, as taking any platform he can, is important right now.
I wont be surprised, though, if he is “axed” as the chairman of that show, by next week.
Don’t get me wrong: I loved it. But I do not think that fans of “The Panel” will have liked the show very much…… except that Max got kinda “stuck-in” with Gilmore and seemed VERY au fait and VERY concerned and VERY serious, for a change and the shock of that to his fans may, well, “wake-them-up”.
Immediate, random, thoughts.
Debate on bbc1 question time. Pay ought to be related to performance. Again all wrong. What an individual is rewarded for labour provided is the real value of that labour provided. The value is determined by the ‘type of labour’ provided.
So, a bus driver’s labour provided is of a type which put’s it in an all together different classification than teaching is. So it’s value is less than that of a teacher’s. It’s of a value which does not even come close to the value of labour regarding the teaching profession.
Ii is my contention that it is the blurring of lines between a fair and common sensical classification of the value of labour that has undermined the labour / reward ratio and opened the door to wholesale madness on what certain sector’s of society are now paid or not paid.
Agree with tim, think, for what it’s worth Davids hosting of the panel was a stroke of genius.
D is P1ssing people off now.
On the panel he was p1ssing off three of the co – hosts and the two guests.
David’s truth has now p1ssed off the queen of RTE, and it’s all turning sour.
BL is now P1ssed off and tearing up live on air on RTE on miriam’s show,.. and all upset and David is in the firing line.
David is getting too outspoken for his own good is what’s occurring and it’s luring the truth further out into the open day by day.
Maxwell was right, David ought too not be so hard on himself relating to comments made. It’s comments made in good motive and truth telling.
The audience were young and were rooting for david and behind maxwell’s challenge to gilmore to quit the politico bluff and tell the truth and gilmore ran behind his politico meeja silver tongue slip out the back door mumbo jumbo.
All,
does anyone know if any legal challenges are being brought against NAMA? Is there any way for thir article 45 Furrylugs to be used?
Is there an Erin Brokovich among us who could get an online petition in place before Nov 12th and hit President mcAleese with everything she’s got. Yes she’s FF but she also swore a very solemn oath. In the public eye, that may count for a lot with her.
Is there a stumbling block at all to NAMA? Does anyone here know?
This evening in the Dáil, Joan Burton tried valiantly (along with Arthur Morgan) to have tax exiles benefit substantially less from NAMA provisions, but Peter Power, under the guise of retaining laserlike focus, rebutted any potential minor victories for the opposition. So much for a Tallaght strategy Brian. This is looking, even in the finest of fine details of tax exiles, like a Galway Tent strategy.
also, ruairi, gilmore said on ‘the panel’ that if elected labour would not reverse NAMA and get rid of it, which is a scoop. D even news hounded a scoop on ‘the panel’ but yet to morrow’s newspapers are all about david upsetting poor old miriam.
Thing is, david stumbled upon the central underlying reality that rules ireland from whence time begam and this is that.
no irishman can ever cross the ‘holy mary mother of god’ invisible line around the irish mammy.
Ahem, Brockovich btw.
http://www.ipetitions.com is a petition tool that allows 100,000 ‘signatures’ to be collected and then sent on to a recipient.
David, I’m not sure that you are the best person to author such a petition (you’ll never work again!) but I am sure that there is someone credible that can be found.
I too sense desperation in people. I sense spin in the ‘good news’ that peoples’ outlook and confidence is rising and it MUST be because NAMA is coming together and the people feel they’ve got direction now. Who allows such spin and leaps of the imagination on the airwaves? Even the veritable Vinny Browne let that sidewinder past him, he’s as dazed and confused as the rest of us, with the moving goalposts.
Furrylugs, if there is a key message to get out there, now is the time to do it. All attempts to ‘tweak’ NAMA, to get minor concessions / victories are failing. Its now or never baby
Ruairi, all I can say about that is that the legal eagles that I have consulted say that they cannot see any way that A45 can be used to win.
My own grasp of the law is, apparently, “tainted by idealism”, in their opinion.
Also, the problem with A45 is that is vests its own power in the Oireachtas – to use it, or not. (Read the “Preamble” here (it is the self-castrating part of the article).
A45 has been flouted and tossed-around many times.
If you google this “article45+constitution”, you will find links to many cases where it was skirted-around; It is shocking, how the “spirit” of the article has been ignored!
Sorry…. here it is:
DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF SOCIAL POLICY
Article 45
The principles of social policy set forth in this Article are intended for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. The application of those principles in the making of laws shall be the care of the Oireachtas exclusively, and shall not be cognisable by any Court under any of the provisions of this Constitution.
1. The State shall strive to promote the welfare of the whole people by securing and protecting as effectively as it may a social order in which justice and charity shall inform all the institutions of the national life.
2. The State shall, in particular, direct its policy towards securing:
i. That the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs.
ii. That the ownership and control of the material resources of the community may be so distributed amongst private individuals and the various classes as best to subserve the common good.
iii. That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.
iv. That in what pertains to the control of credit the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole.
v. That there may be established on the land in economic security as many families as in the circumstances shall be practicable.
3. 1° The State shall favour and, where necessary, supplement private initiative in industry and commerce.
2° The State shall endeavour to secure that private enterprise shall be so conducted as to ensure reasonable efficiency in the production and distribution
CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
of goods and as to protect the public against unjust exploitation.
4. 1° The State pledges itself to safeguard with especial care the economic interests of the weaker sections of the community, and, where necessary, to contribute to the support of the infirm, the widow, the orphan, and the aged.
2° The State shall endeavour to ensure that the strength and health of workers, men and women, and the tender age of children shall not be abused and that citizens shall not be forced by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age or strength
Tim, its clear that this is the constitution of Norway, not Ireland. Nice try! And nice cut n’ paste job.
Was this on the backpage when all of Dáil Eireann took their oaths? This article is like a satire on our current woes?
Credit…..clientelism…….resources……….competition. Jesus, we are very far gone. We pay lip service to everything. Nothing held sacred is sacred.
Even Gilmore. Voting against NAMA (no doubt) and then saying they wouldn’t revise / reenvision the problem if they were in?? We have a nation of lip-service merchants.
The majority voted FF in the last 2 elections in particular, out of personal greed. They will support NAMA too, because they want the boogeyman to go away and house price mania to return. It was so easy then. How could you lose? One simple decision all those years ago and now you were an investor…….. F**K me.
staggering to bear witness too an Ireland so quick too jump into materialism at such a cost to cultural integrity.
wills: Excellent snappy post: “staggering to bear witness too an Ireland so quick too jump into materialism at such a cost to cultural integrity.”
It might have been more accurate to say:”staggering to bear witness too an Ireland so quick too jump into materialism at such a cost to religious caution.”
Religious caution is an instinct that has been handed down at least from the time of ancient Greek theatre, which had a common theme addressing what happened when human excesses inspired the anger of the Gods.
There were 4 stages in making the Gods angry in Ancient Greece.
Step 1: Blinding of mind. This means by either through selfishness or some other “strong” feeling, a human merely thinks of doing something that they realized the Gods opposed, or exercised protection over that action.
Step 2: Going over the limit. The Ancient Greek word for this is “Ivri”. This means that the person would act according to what they thought of in Step 1, which they knew exceeded the limits that the Gods have set.
Step 3: The Gods are angry with what was done because the action went beyond the known limitations.
Step 4: The Gods punish you for your actions.
In Ireland, Step 1 was collectively to think we could get something for nothing.
Step 2 was the entire panoply of the loans mess.
We are now at Step 3. The Gods are angry.
Step 4: We must accept our punishment with good grace.
Ohhhh, that’s a great post, Malcolm!
Malcolm – I enjoyed your four stages model of the Irish Pride Cycle.
But you forgot with the benefit with modern Psychology, that we are able to say that there is an awful lot of denial in all of the stages.
In fact, Ireland is, at many layers a society in denial.
The only people who have got out of the denial stage, have got up and left.
I am impressed with your suggestion for a new article in the Irish Constitution.
If you had Article 45 in the Irish constitution, and if it was implemented we would never have had all the corrupt business dealings in this country that end up with a ripp-off republic culture, the beef tribunals, the planning tribunals, and the banks going insolvent.
We defintely need this sort of thing in Ireland.
Oh, somebody just told me – we already have it – it was just that it was never implemented. Patrick Neary made sure that it was never implemented.
Ok Tim, I hear you. But what galls me the most is that there are no concessions / political crumbs being given at all. No quarter given.
This is naked politics. Ugly. So far removed from Bertie’s supposed concensus model.
It is typical of the arrogance of the PD /Candida-infected FF that they go with the blunt instrument of narrow majority. It is clear that a number of amendments were constructive. Perhaps a peitition on one or two battles rather than the war, might be the best final (and first) beach-head with the President.
It is shocking how morally skewed we are as a nation. So skewed that our leaders are feeling aggrieved at their ‘love’ of the people being doubted. That perhaps thy mightn’t sense the anger. A touch of the crazies there Cowen. The kind of indignation that a catholic bishop could only usually conjure up.
Even if a petition went in demandin that certain key amendments be scrutinised, that would be something.
Ru, Cowen IS “naked politics”; that’s why that teacher made the paintings as such.
I am in the sh1t, here; I am fighting the battle on so many fronts, but it is looking like “check-mate”
FF cumann meeting tonight reports “No Reply” to negative meeting-minutes sent to Taoiseach and HQ.
Looks bad.
Hey its better than “Here’s the cheque, mate” at the Galway Races.
No one here doubts your good intentions. Cumanns (I attended many in my youth in Haughey and Reynolds’ time) are only meant to be listening shops. Then the local Liam Lawlor tells everyone how its going to be.
Fianna Fáil style democracy. It got prettier in the Tiger. But sure didn’t everything. Ugly faces are returning to everything now. Someone put Ireland’s picture back in the attic please. Do not disturb.
Tim , will you ever give it up . You may as well send the negitive meetings minutes to the to the cat for all the good it is going to do .
I am sure there is good people at grass roots level but the thing is just what are they doing in FF ? The party has been corrupt since day one and except for a few brief periods it has always been corrupt .
Anyway you are a socialist in a centre right party .
Fascinating, David’s not permitted to make observations of a calibre and sharon osborne can mouth off anyway she want’s.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/05/sharon-osbourne-susan-boy_n_347439.html
Coincidental Wills ! I was just on the Huffington Post myself, going back to get a link to this:-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/huffpost-game-changers-wh_n_314014.html
HuffPost Game Changers: – Who is the Ultimate Game Changer in Politics? The right messages delivered to the right people can open up opportunities / breathing space that we never imagined.
Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe NAMA is grand. And if its passed in a flash by the President, maybe we could celebrate Friday 13th (Dáil pass it on 12th) as some sort of a National Holiday in the future. Would suit our twisted irish psyche. Self-haters. its obvious.
Well yes – but Sharon Osborne’s commentary are for keeping the sheep amused, and David’s are for waking them up. And we can’t have the sheeple finding too much out.
Our corporate sponsors would not approve. If you want AIB/BoI/IL&P-TSB/INBS/EBS advertising, then stop undermining the NAMA Minister for Finance. So the media ‘critique’ David’s honest account of Lenihans “so….what would you do….” moment…..
This sort of thing is dangerous. We can’t have people waking up realising that the Minister for Finance has any idea what he is supposed to be doing !!!
Ru, I have been reeding on this site for so long, I cannot say; before this site, I read DMcW’s articles: I remember the one in 2001 or (2002?) about business-friends of his buying a suit, costing 900 and asking why a teacher should not be paid enough to allow him to aspire to such a suit.
Not a chance! Ever! (but, no matter). He helped to “wake me up”.
The question is this: “What are we going to do?”
So far, I have travelled from West-Cork to Dublin, in order to meet in person people from this site.
I Have been as honest as I can, I think, about who I am and what I want for our country.
I have tried to answer the questions asked of me regarding my motives, to the best of my ability.
I have released ALL of my contact-details to everyone here: Phone, Address, email, Facebook, twitter, everything!
Result:
I have met, in person, with two people from this site; phone-contact with those two, plus two others; email contact with two more.
We need to DO something to save our country and our children!
What more can I do?
I will do “Anything!”
Let’s keep at it!
“Ruairi”, (apologies – I try to use your “Chosen” site-name)
Sorry, for being too “familiar” in addressing you as “Ru”.(but that’s what I call my friend, of the same name).
Ruairi and Tim et al, if ye want to get Nama, ye have nothing to do only spell out the cold hard facts in simple terms that anyone can understand.
1. on the night of the census 2006 (link below) the number of empty houses /apartments in the Republic stood at about 1 quarter of a million. This number has since increased based on completions /mortgages issued .The figure now stands at 260k approx and this figure does not include a little over 50k in holiday homes which were unoccupied on that night.
2. recent published live register data shows 423k approx signing on, broken down to about 85k under 25 with the balance over 25.
3. Recent calculations by DOF estimate in the short to medium term that in the order of 150k people will leave Ireland.
4. Nama proposes to buy loans from the Banks which will entail building more houses in order to clear the loans, which will mean thousands more houses /apartments coming on stream.
So what can you tell from this data? We have a massive overhang @ 1 above which could increase if the people over 25 ( left mammy) @ 2 above starts to default!! We are about to loose 150k potential customers @3 above and Nama proposes to build out more houses /apartments to sell into this market with the Economy in a state of depression and a zombie Banking system unable / unwilling to fund mortgages because of the absence of sufficient solvent borrowers and the general fear amongst the solvent ones to risk investing at this time.
The above data does not include any commercial/ speculative loans in other areas of the Economy, but a cursory glance through the vacancy rates for shops, offices and others would suggest an even bigger overhang in money terms in that particular area.
In response to our host and with the view of getting back on topic re. Pensioners, I’m sure our host will encounter a lot of pensioners holding flowers and scribbling notes as He makes his way through the departure terminal at Dublin airport in time to come. I’m also sure that these lonely pensioners did not expect to see their children and grand children leave them behind. Maybe when their settled they will send on a ticket who knows. I’ll leave it to Synge again to close for now “ their all gone now, there is no more the sea can do to me….” ( taken from riders to the sea) Goodnight Ireland .Sleep well.
http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=76536
Scandalous. At the height of the mania there were 250000 apartments/dwellings empty. I remember the official explanation for this on RTE/IT/IndoNews was that these were all holidy homes in the West. And yet I remember a relative in Kildare telling me that there were houses empty in Naas. Now this shocked me because Naas is the centre of activity in Ireland – it is on the road that joins the three largest urban areas in Ireland. And it is was one of the most prosperous towns in Ireland for over a generation. And we had the cronyists running Ireland telling us that we were so rich that we were able to afford empty houses. It really was the peak in stupidity in this country. (well it was the peak until last night, when the Kildare Street Circus voted in NAMA)….
There was empty apartments in Leixlip in 2005. But you would never hear anyone mention that. And sure don’t get me started on Ghost town, sorry i meant Adamstown.
Merill-Lynch and the OECD received €7.5 million in 2007, to say that the “fundamentals are sound”?????
And , who chairman gave it to them ?
The waste of public money in this country just keeps getting worse and worse.
And this an even bigger scandal than the port tunnel that was built too short for An Post lorries, and heavy articulated trucks….
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/new-stadium-is-an-irreversible-and-huge-tragedy-for-irish-sport-1935796.html
So there you have it. 400 Million Euro of tax money blown on a second stadium that will probably be underused.
Oh yes, and wthout ever reading the content, Ahern’s Minister for Fun (Sport), JOD (or Johnny Cash as he is now called) signed the cheque.
And now the government wants to abolish the Junior Cert because if costs 30 Million a year, and stop vaccines for 12 year old girls because they cost 10 Million Euro per year.
They do it, because they get away with it !!!!
Another example of
DUBLIN – HOW NOT TO PLAN A CITY !!!
I bet Ahern’s pals in the CIF made a handy profit however. And in addition Man Utd will be able to come around and save the dirty dozen the bother of getting into a mini-bus to watch them in Old Trafford.
This country is a banana republic. Even your average standard version South American banana republic government can have moments of being reasonable and down to earth. But it is completely nconceivable here.
Go on, Warp a Green Flag around me boys, and let me lose all reason on eurphoria of chasing pride and national self significance.
Oh, just remembered. We are bankrupt, decripid, corrupt and anybody that knows what is going on wants to get off the island and go elsewhere.
Ah but Deco I thought you would have know , we plan our cities so well this is what we are bringing to the world fair next year in China ,this project is ( well for now ) just costing €4million to stage ….Ireland Politicans are just amazing !!
Kiss of Debt –
It must be mentioned the importance of recent press coverage alleging how the Bank of Ireland have on numerous occassions ignored agreed proper security protocol with the Police and how they alone ignored the advice of the Police at intervals .The importance of this is very critical because it shows how their banking policies are above the law and how they believe they have a ‘carte blanche’ to tell the nation ‘get lost’ .
Recently ,matters have become so bad that all the management of all the registered banks were summoned by the police to a meeting ‘to heed’ ‘or else’.
The public when reading the newspapers would normally perceive this on the basis of banks -v- robbers .But the reality is ‘if’ and ‘when’ sentient being/ good civic minded person out of the blue notices or perceives something wrong and in a civic way communicates that to the bank first the same blatant breach of security protocol repeats itself again only this time they endanger and damage the whistle blower / civic person.Their actions are both anti patriotic and anti social to say the least and prevent proper crime prevention and only adds to costs of crime detection.
Green Deception of Debt –
I have written records of at least three senior bank of ireland management officials who had their files sent to director of public prosecution for reasons that included breach of security protocol and interference in detection of crime taking place in 1993 only to be met with a decision ‘not to prosecute ‘ and ‘without reason’.
To make matters worse Bof I Head Office refused to discuss anything .
It is callous actions like this by a tax subsidised national bank that only add to the woes of the nation.Two or more wrongs wont make a right .
Morning all,
We could turn to Michael McDowell SC for guidance???
He wrote this on July 6 this year in the Irish Times;
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0706/1224250103741.html
“On a personal basis, I have become increasingly convinced that the dynamic of our society depends hugely on a general appreciation right across that society that the rule of law, regulation and judicial review of legislative and executive action must be tempered by the virtue of continence if our society is to function economically and socially for the good of all.
In my view, there must be very substantial areas of human activity which are out of bounds as far as judicial interference is concerned. These include the function of legislators and also the function of those who exercise the executive power of the State.
By examining article 45 of the Constitution, the often neglected Directive Principles of Social Policy, it is possible to see that the explicit prohibition in that article on judicial review of the implementation of the principles laid out there was an express embodiment of the separation of powers in the Irish State.
Those Directive Principles of Social Policy were where, as regards their implementation, the exclusive reserve of the Oireachtas deals with a myriad of issues such as competition law, social welfare law, the provision of health services, the regulation of employment, the role of private enterprise, the abuse of monopoly, very topically, the availability and control of credit – all amount to areas which were declared “off limits” to the judicial power as regards their implementation.
It is interesting to remind ourselves that most of what was ring fenced in the present article 45 as off limits for judicial review was, in the early drafts of the Constitution, to be found in the same article as the private property rights in the Constitution which are now to be found in article 43.
It seems to me that lawyers – both judges, academics and practitioners – should revisit the doctrine of the separation of powers and reconsider it not as a constraint on an innovative and pioneering judiciary, but, rather, as an absolutely essential piece of our constitutional architecture which contributes to a vibrant and successful society.”
So basically….Article 45 and Article 43 imply that NAMA is possibly unconstitutional….correct ??
If this is true, then you have saved the taxpayer and embarrassed the fools who voted in favour of NAMA. Well observed Furry !!
Here’s another Big Boo Boo.
From todays Irish Times after the biggest financial risk to the Irish Citizen was passed by 3-4 rushed votes last night;
“THERE WAS a danger that banks had become too risk-averse and were refusing credit when the business was in a position to repay the loan, Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan told the Dáil.
“There is also a danger that, starved of cash, the banks, in any event, are not in position to afford adequate credit,” he added.
Mr Lenihan said it was clearly in the interests of the banks to lend to small and medium-sized enterprises who would be able to repay the loans…….
It would be possible for instance to designate a pool of lending that would be available to an appeal body to directly provide credit in the event of a refusal.
Mr Lenihan told the House that banks were imperfect institutions (Must be the understatement of the century?? – F), capable of mistakes and businessmen and women were entitled to be sure that their applications were given a proper hearing.(But not anyone else??)
His objective, he said, was to ensure there were mechanisms in place with a strong input from outside the institutions, to allow potential borrowers a right of review where credit was refused.”"
So the banks tighten lending criteria and check out the application with the Credit Bureau. Everyone’s credit rating has taken a hit in some shape or form thus application refused but that ok because NAMA’s got a pot of our dough to lend.
{ “There is also a danger that, starved of cash, the banks, in any event, are not in position to afford adequate credit,” he added. }
In that case why doesn’t he start a state owned enterprise bank ?
It would be far cheaper.
Lenihan is just a place man who is doing the bidding of the ISEQ scoundrels, and throwing soundbites to the public.
Furrylugs – there is a phrase that is ringing in my head concerning Lenihan’s comments on the human failings in the banking institutions….’you really could not make it up if you tried’.
There is something hilarious going on apart from that. Basically anybody who undermines authority, gets undermined by authority. This means also that there is no public comment about the utter stupidity of Ireland having two lawyers in a row looking after the Finance Ministry. And nobody seems to join the dots over their economic incompetence and the stupidity evident in their ‘decision’ making.
Fact – Lenihan is an idiot. A complete idiot. He has no idea what he should be doing. Everything is about ‘reassuring the public’, ‘building confidence measures’, and ‘getting credit flowing again’.
Look, the entire economic model is FUBARed. Completely FUBARed. If you want to get prepared for the future, then get an economic and intellectual grasp of strides that Asia is making, and compare with lethargy, delusions, nonsense, and rubbish coming from the economic leadership (sic) West. And then we have that idiot Lenihan thinking that he is prepared for a crisis from reading Alan ‘Bubbles’ Greenspan’s book. The entire situation is entirely absurd.
And then we all these public commentators from Marian Finuicane to Jim Power telling us that David had no right to explain in such precise detail the complete absurdity that is absolutely evident in Brian Lenihan.
I mean, the one thing you are not allowed do under any circumstance is tell too much of the truth to the public. Our corporate sponsors would not like that.
I still stick to my opinion that Cowen is Ireland’s Dubya. Except sobered up. Dubya appointed capable people to positions like Paul O’Neill and Condeleeza Rice. And Dubya had a better popularity rating. Dubya’s record low was 22%. Cowen went as low as 15%. And Cowen is not finished yet. He still can go further.
And apart from all the above reasons, Cowen’s incompetence costs more than Dubyas – because of Cowen’s ridiculous salary.
Cowen – time to stand down you buffoon. Same applies to Lenihan.
Error in the second last paragraph.
It should read
{ still stick to my opinion that Cowen is Ireland’s Dubya. Except Dubya sobered up. Cowen can’t. }
I actually think, and I’m going to get blasted for this, that Brian Linehan is essentially a decent man dealing with a pack of self centered tribal elitists. In the bloodless world of International finance, our little country has been led up the garden path by naive yokels induced to spend the family silver for the betterment of cynical money-lenders. As Max said on The Panel last night “Jesus had the patience of a saint” with these people. They are amoral.
I’m cautious to over condemn yet until we see will BL have one over on them. Even if he doesn’t, Ms Kroes is waiting in the wings. Hell hath no fury like a Commissioner belittled, as ING just found out. The Regulator has just reminded people about short selling so someone is smelling blood.
The games afoot and will be interesting methinks. The only thing I do know for certain is that our Taoiseach is leader in name only and is providing scant evidence that he understands the magnitude of the office he holds. Out of his depth insofar as that relates to the current position of the Titanic.
I’ll duck now……
Furrylugs – if Lenihan is a decent man – then why NAMA ?
Why did he save Anglo Irish Bank ?
Why is he sticking the nationalization of INBS into the NAMA bill ? (I think that it is tp prevent future Dail votes).
For me it is quite simple really – forget all the acting and the posturing – underneath is a man that is completely out of his depth. Get the fool out of there !! Maybe somebody who knows what they are doing might take over. Richard Bruton is not perfect either, but unlike Lenihan, Baby Brute did study economics.
As the Phoenix Cartoon commented two months ago….’the wrong man, at the wrong time, in the wrong place’.
I respect your efforts to be pateint with Lenihan. But patience ensures that Irish people suffer stupid disasters with too much reticence instead of saying that enough is enough.
If we tolerate incompetence, ineptitude, and failure, then we should expect to get an awful lot of it. And we certainly ar getting an awful lot of it.
I’d say he was totally out of his depth a year ago but he’s learnt a bit since.
Apart from posters here and some other blogs, the vast tranche of the people dont know/don’t want to know how bad this is. If he can rein it in that helps. NAMA is getting rewritten daily and I’m inclined to postpone judgement until after the budget. The trade off for protecting the elite (because realistically they’ll never pay) should be some forward thinking stimuli to get people moving forward. A totally negative budget will send us into free fall.
Then enough will be enough.
Back somebody into their front door and they have nowhere to go except come out fighting.
I am not blasting you . But there it is again ‘ Lenihan is a decent man ‘ What does it mean and why is it important ?
He is supposed to be the minister for finance , yet when the banks world wide were going bust including the entire Irish financial system he was in a spin and reading Alan Greenspan . Even me with with little knowledge of economics or finance know that Greenspan inflated the credit bubble .
My industry went into recession in 2001 and I was talking to somebody in the same business in london in 2003 and we got talking about our industries recession and he said he had traced it back to Sept 12 ,2001 .
I knew an accountant who worked for the NZ government who in 2000 examined the Celtic Tiger to see if they could copy it . Their conclusion was that it was unsustainable .
So I figure that I would be a better minister for finance . I am decent in that I will buy you a pint I am also nice to small children and bunny rabbits .
Alan42
Only insofar as he (hopefully) has some sense or vestige of “Patriotic” duty towards the populace as a whole, now that all the facts are before him.
The budget will tell.
We need to invigorate the country with some charismatic leadership. If someone in power doesn’t have a go doing something positive for a change I’m going to open some drop-in centres for manic economic depressives.
Yup! BL V BC….. who will win?
I know which is the lesser of two evils……
Remember, that during the last downturn, these guys were happy to let people emigrate, and they even stated it publicly. The guys were delighted that entire communities were disappearing overnight, it solved many of their problems. These lads do not care about the nation as a whole.
Well said Deco!
But don’t forget Gormless Couglhan, Harney, O’Dea, Dempsey, Martin, O’Keefe, Ryan, Cullen, O’Cuiv, Fahy, Healy Rae, Mattie Molloy and all the rest of the useless lot
The all need to stand down as well
You mean McGrath not Molloy ??
(I think he is a musician with the Chieftains – he could sue you for damages-you associating him with such low life scoundrels !!! That is a severe form of insult to the man.
Excellent cartoon of McGrath in this weeks Phoenix Magazine….
yeah, should have being McGrath
From Canada – a critique of the policies of Obama’s Lenihan figure – Timothy Geithner.
http://www.sprott.com/Docs/InvestorsDigest/2009/10_23_2009%20Con%20job%20in%20the%20financial%20markets%20continues.pdf
Basically the commentator is saying that the political class are just papering over the cracks, and eventually the crack will collapse the entire building. A bit extreme. But he is completely correct about the efforts to ‘reassure everybody that it is business as usual’.
Nouriel Roubini has made similar, if less start warnings.
It seems that all the economists who predicted the crisis are unimpressed by the response.
And in connection with NAMA, we have a government which cannot provide vaccines for 12 year old girls, which will now have to borrow 50 Billion Euro to buy properties from the banks, for which there is no market. Surely the PD element in the government must be annoyed at such government intervention in the market economy. Eh..no…pass the bottle of vodka…alright….everything is fixed up now….
I risk saying something blasphemous to the Irish system of social and cultural mores…..but in the United States, Canada and some Scandinavian countries…we are seeing pubs/taverns getting closed because they are too close to schools..
Any chance of that happening here ? Question for Biffo, Johnny Cash, Harney, Master McGrath, etc…
Yeah-that would be an interesting proposition for the Publican Party :))))
David admits he exceeded the limits in his book:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/contrite-david-tries-to-get-back-in-good-books-1935850.html
However he can be consoled by the fact that his dispatches from ‘the edge’ are usually right. In 2006 he came in for a lot of criticism from Liam Collins in the Indy, who wrote:
” In an article written in October 2000 in the Sunday Business Post, comparing the Irish and Japanese economies (DMcW wrote…)
“What scares me is that the Japanese model of two economies fits Ireland. . . today’s Ireland looks, smells and feels like Japan in the late Eighties,” he wrote.
But six years later, Ireland hasn’t become the new Japan or the victim of a long-term economic slump.” (End quote from: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/mcwilliams-is-a-real-selfmade-man–he-invented-himself-136832.html )
That criticism is worth re-reading in full but of course Collins was completely wrong,as was already obvious last January:
http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.com/2009/01/31/57479.html
An article entitled Hubris, denial, and loss of confidence said: “There is one striking similarity between the Japanese crisis and the current downturn: the hubris that preceded them. The Japanese were convinced the sun would shine, if not forever, at least for a long, long time. And that conviction, in turn, was buttressed by a belief that the superiority of the Japanese system was culturally innate.”
That neatly picks up Deco’s point that Ireland is, at many layers a society in denial.
How can you be sorry about what you publish in a book a week after it is published ? It was written months ago and plenty of people would have read it before publication including legal people .
David knew what would happen . There is another agenda there .
Personally I think he is right to break ranks . There is a code of complience between the media and politicians which has us in the state that we are in .
The Collins piece is not a criticism of Davids writings or skill as an economist but rather a snide and personal attack .
It is possible to sorry now.
But 12 months from now, when even more revelations have come out in the wash, David’s meeting with Lenihan will seem civil and orderly.
In the next 12 months we will see some sort of showdown between the ECB and D2. And there will be a lot of extremely stern phone calls coming from Brussels, Berlin, Paris and possibly the Hague also.
The government is running out of money. At some stage Frankfurt will say – “no more borrowing , start paying it all back”. The Northern Europeans will want reform of the system here, and they will want every Euro they loaned back.
Besides, there are comments in the other trilogy books that are equally critical of leading government figures. David is basically somebody that clowns like Willie O’Dea and Mary O’Rourke feel they should attack. But the other comments have escaped criticism. Shane Ross has critical things to say about powerful people in Ireland. And Matt Cooper complete sunders the interaction between politics, law and business in Ireland, leaving you realising that yes this is a banana republic.
2009 – The Trilogy. Money, corruption, cliques, hard sell, and consumerism.
i) Follow the Money, by David McWilliams
ii) The Bankers, by Shane Ross
iii) Who runs Ireland, by Matt Cooper.
In each case full of stuff that you are not supposed to know about how things operate in Ireland.
I am in the process of reading all three so that I will know everything that is happening. And telling others to do the same.
This is how I grab one string in the rug, inducing others to do the same until there is no longer any rug underneath the gombeen element in our society.
Deco:
Isn’t odd and rather revealing that david is honed in on and giving a good kicking and no – one else.
David carries a threat like no other.
is it info he did not reveal as he eluded too in last sundays indo’s article.
Is it a purity of reputation the power elites cannot blackmail David with.
Is it David’s charisma and his easy going charm and boyish good look’s that threaten.
Is it the fact that David carries the power in the grasp of his hand to STOP NAMA.
I think it is because
i) he questioned the authority of Pravda / RTE. The one thing that is absolutely abhorred by those who have influence over the media is the wrong sort of people getting access to the media. Just look at what happened to Carol Coleman. The powers that be in Ireland can finish a journalists career very quickly.
ii) people listen to him – especially the ordinary people and try to grasp what he is telling them.
iii) he is questioning the ability of FF’s star player. (not saying much about the rest of them).
Bear in mind that the top layer of FF did a lot of kicking with regard to Eddie Hobbs. In fact Bertie Ahern seems to have very effectively silenced Eddie Hobbs. The scourge of the gombeen element was Hobbs sitting on a soapbox telling the nation that the entire market economy in Ireland was rigged with price fixing, overcharging and oligopolistic behaviour. Hobbs happens to be FG, so we might see Hobbs back again on Newstalk (because DOB comes from an FG family).
FF does not like competition in regards to influencers of public opinion. In fact they react using every possible trick in the book. And when I say FF, I mean FF, and a coalition of business interests and trade union leaders(politicians in their own right) who are aligned in such a way as to prefer FF in permanent government.
If the authorities do manage to silence David, then we should get together and back him for Seanad Eireann in the third level ticket. He can join the Good Senator, and double the economic intelligence of the Seanad overnight !!!!
Hobbs would easily get into the Seanad now, because he is FG, and FG have the largest bloc of local authority seats nationwide.
Also bear in mind there are 40 academics who signed a petition against NAMA. And other academics like Sean Barrett, and Moore McDowell who are totally opposed to it, who never signed the petition.
Surprised again my learned friend , but Hobbs was bought off my Bertie Boy, and given a nice number on the national consumers panel and don’t forget Brendan Investments .
But your right apart from the Seanad , we should have these academics in the Dail , Fergal Quinn in charge of Trade, Ross in charge of finance, but the vast majority are just over paid talkers
(iv) Banksters, by David Murphy and Martina Devlin.
Malcolm – we have a culture in Ireland of celebrationism. In fact I think that other bananna republics also have it.
But basically, our leaders try to encourage us to celebrate. If you see the media coverage of the Michelle Smith affair-you will see my point (The Michelle Smith analogy comes to mind as a result of David’s book).
This becomes a self-reinforcing loop. And it is very useful in making the people feel good about nothing, or as is often the case about something which may as well be nothing for all the good it will bring their lives. It is Kunstler’s “something for nothing” value system taking hold. Everything get’s ungrounded. All sorts of absurdity enters into intellectual culture as ‘a form of expression’. Or as the phrase goes ‘ look, see…we have now arrived’.
And then all of a sudden Bang. The crash begins.
The intellectual demise preludes the demise in other areas.
Deco:
David when he open’s his mouth and projects and speak’s his vocalistic’s crashes what you write of above.
He cut’s through the ‘mind meld’ voodoo mind grip on the sheeple and what he speaks of ring’s through even if the listener is clueless to the substance of the idea’s.
This is a powerful gift and CAN STOP NAMA.
Deco: I don’t think it’s constructive to describe Ireland as a banana republic, even in jest. I’ve lived in a several of them and the gulf between rich and poor there was a hundred times greater than anything in Ireland. I saw conditions of poverty that would make the Irish family of 4 that Father Healey described earnestly on Primetime as “struggling to live on €28,000 a year” seem like bloated plutocrats by comparison.
The Irish who return or visit from abroad usually come from civilized countries like UK, USA, Canada and Australia. A few years ago, aided by impressions from TV and movies, they gave ‘stay at homes’ the impression that Ireland was well down the international pile, instead of close to the top, in reality.
The ‘feel-good’ factor you mention is a poor substitute for the confidence engendered by availing of educational opportunities, learning a range of complementary skills and travel in early adulthood to where-ever those advantages can be put to good use. Celebrations can wait until you’ve seen the first grandchild through college.
Malcom , on Deco’s point we have a baNAMA rebuplic , I lived in Nigeria twenty years ago and while techinicaly maybe not a complete banana republic you have to bring things to a scale value within each country , while a goat will always be a goat , until you become a protective breeder of same.
Just look at the expenses the committees the agencys and Qunago’s the Health service our national transporter CIE the wages paid to the monolistic ESB , we gave sellers of home agencies to arrange the loans for these over valued boxes.
Look at our education system you can learn a second language when you reach 13 in second level while those Germans begin at 8 in junior school.
Our Leader is an unexperienced solicitor as he had to step into his fathers shoes, but jesaus can’t he belt out an ould song off the back of a trailor , he’s some speaker you know !. Our Health Minister a career politician and cross over obese drunk. the whole lot of them are television caratures of comical chancers, as our political class is now into it’s fourth generation and society has to refresh , look what the Germans done back after the war , Every body started from scratch again
I have just come back this week from Malaga in Spain and I am now more worried than before about what is actually going on here in Ireland .
Starting with this Swine Flu and the amount of Media coverage been given to it , while it has been on the papers in Spain there is no coverage like we are seeing here , also the last few days I have been watching the BBC and Sky and they are not giving it as much attention as our main media are here,
Our BIG Problem is of course the Bank disease yet our Media houses and state controled television are trying to distract us from the real issue of the day.
I run my own marketing consultancy business and over the last few months I have taken on another three golf resorts who after discussions are now offering their villas on their courses for 50% less than offered two years ago, to see can they off load them.
Also last night I was watching the Dail report on NAMA and when Joan Burton asked for more time to debate this and requesting they continue the debate today , the F.F’ers laughed and sniggered at this suggestion.
NAMA is the BIGGEST event in our states history and all F.F could do was laugh at the suggestion of comming into the Dail on Friday to continue the discussions.
This shows me how far removed our political class are from the real world.
The time has come to send all our Political class to a nice nursing home but with locked gates on it !
BrendanW, you are right, here. The distraction-tactics are all over the place.
Posters.
The SPV NAMA switch put’s NAMA’s book’s and data into non disclosure.
So, the detailed information relating to the property bubble activities of the banks, developers and in particular the activities of ANIB, biggest NAMA beneficiary, all this information will go into non disclosure.
So, it maybe the case that NAMA is in fact an inside job mega cover up.
Why would it be anything else. An elite banking system with the regulator bodies in it’s pockets and the politicians ? the BC’s and BL’s, where do there loyalties rest.
Furry and Malcolm hold faith in BL’s motives and why should one not. Innocent until proven guilty for all citizens.
Judging by BC’s interview last night on Primetime he has an appearance of a politician ‘out of power’ and ‘out of depth’ and ‘out of intelligence’.
BL, seem’s in command and engaged.
If NAMA is a mega cover up by the elite banker’s too shut away all incriminating evidence relating too bubble engineering but more importantly names and figures of major players responsible for the great 2000 – 2007 POnzi bubble swindle, locked away out of reach from the public, too ultimately ensure the 70 billion swag bag riches can’t be touched, should BL be facilitating the creation of NAMA into a SPV!!
Is this the proof he is in on it, in on the great POnzi property bubble swindle cover up that is NAMA/SPV.
“Furry and Malcolm hold faith in BL’s motives and why should one not. Innocent until proven guilty for all citizens.”
Not so much his motives Wills as his remoteness from the cyclonic centre when the bubble was put in place. But, where the others were naive fools (or the most cunning of all) in generating the bubble, BL has all the facts in front of him, such as they are. He therefore would be guilty of a greater betrayal if the ultimate plan is as you succinctly describe above.
Wills; Furrylugs: I was impressed last week when (in response to a Nama committee stage question) BL said that he was never in the Galway tent. He had been invited of course, he continued, but instinct told him it was best avoided.
I guess that’s as close as a politician ever gets to making a claim to be ‘clean’.
Malcolm: it could also point too the scope of BL’s cunning as a politician.
And time will tell, if our friend happens to delve here.
wills……I agree you are right
Malcolm:
The interpolation ‘religious caution’ at post 4 put’s a fine point on the tip of the arrow.
The 4 stages in making the God’s angry run’s a chill through my bones.
Moving from step 3 too step 4 in a land that pride’s itself on quickness of foot too elide personal responsibility doesn’t bear thinking on, but i will.
One does wonder if the ‘great famine’, also too was an event of a type circumscribed.
Wills , I thought you would have know about the ‘great famine’ , we had loads of food here at the time we just we sending the rent/cereals/money over to our Englisg land lords, it was as you said circumscribed. This NAMA PONZI is a very Dirty Primamid
Will We have the strength to stop them this time ?
Poster:
Two links here. One spelling the end (potentially) of ‘Golden sack’s’.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/77791.html
Two: Solution to our current woe’s.
http://maxkeiser.com/
Ellen Brown interview, a must watch.
wills, great links; our own Peter Sutherland is on the Board of Goldman Sachs – you’ll know him; he preaches to the low and middle-income earners of Ireland every now and then about tightening our belts and closing public beds in hospitals and the necessity of building more private hospitals, and such topics of interest to Mary Harney.
I would do the complete opposite to what Peter Sutherland would say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sutherland
new world order
Everyone should read the Peter Sutherlands wiki page..
Deco, et al, I still have no answer to my repeated questions regarding Alan Ahearne’s role as economic advisor to Lenihan:
Why are we paying this man?
Why is he pro-NAMA now, when he was one of its most vocal critics until last February or so?
I think that Alan Ahearne’s chief motivation with going along with government policy is fear. Basically Alan Ahearne is afraid of the consequences of banks failing.
But businesses have been failing since time began. The old businesses fail, and new businesses emerge to fill the market. This idea that a business model requires a cash injection of 4Billion every six months is absurd.
I listen to former BoI cheif Michael Soden on the radio yesterday. He is all in favour of sticking billions into Anglo.
It is all about propping up a collapsed sector, and propping the careers and pensions of the crooks that are running it.
Deco, Alan Ahearne’s “flip-flop” on NAMA is a matter that REALLY bothers me.
Either he sold-out or he found-out something that we do not yet know.
The “volte-face” is far too extreme to be anything else, I think.
Michael Soden: do you remember why he had to “leave” BoI?
Is this the man we want wheeled-out on the TV stations (not just RTE, either) to tell us what we should do, when he was spending so many hours a day in his office (and being paid MILLIONS for it), doing what (ahem!) caused him to have to leave?
The banks gambled and lost; they should be left to their own devices. When they were making hundreds-of-millions in profite, they did not “share-the-wealth” with the Irish people – they were, in fact, caught over-charging us – so why should the Irish people, now, “Share-their-pain”?
Let them go! We have An Post, with branches all over the country and we have the credit unions; we will survive with them alone. Other commercial banks will swoop in pretty quickly, too. But they wont be like the current Irish ones, who have convinced Irish governments to hand them the taxpayers’ money in levies again and again, for over twenty years.
To quote MK1, “Lance the effin’ boil!”
Folks, “Firms operating in the black economy” equates to a whopping €28 billion in lost revenue???
Can this be true? I do not trust this ISME fellow:
http://www.examiner.ie/business/surge-in-rogue-traders-costs-economy-461m-a-week-104978.html
Tim , I couldn’t agree with you more on this one , the really funny thing is when you see what ISME reckon we are loosing will cover the cuts ! This is again Madness
Did you know that Ireland had it’s soverign debt rating reduced by TWO notches (not just one) by Fitch Ratings.
Ireland’s debt rating is now AA-. We were AA+. But we went to AA- without even a short stop at AA.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fitch-downgrades-irish-sovereign-rating-2009-11-04?siteid=yahoomy
See for yourselves.
This has not even been reported in the Irish media. It should be Page 1 of the newspapers – instead of such nonsense as two brash kids, and U2 ‘selling a pup’ with their ‘free’ concert in Berlin.
Once again we have to rely on foreign media to find out what is really happening in Ireland. If the news broke on this before the NAMA debate, then people would be joining the dots on NAMA and the national Debt. But officially NAMA is not the national debt. It is a kind of a National Debt (Part B).
Folks, try this-on-for-size:
ADDRESS TO CONGRESS GET UP STAND UP DEMONSTATION
6 Nov 2009
We are here today in Dublin – and in seven other centres around the country – to try and persuade this Government of the folly of introducing a budget that will be so deflationary it could send the Irish economy into a prolonged coma.
This has happened before in the modern era. The Japanese experienced just such a slump in the 1990s when they made the very same mistake our Government seems intent on repeating. And every effort they made later to try and reflate their economy failed. For good reason it is known as Japan’s Lost Decade.
We had an interesting visitor to our shores earlier this week: Professor David Blanchflower specialises in labour economics and is a former member of the powerful Bank of England committee that sets UK interest rates.
Professor Blanchflower is probably unique among practitioners of the ‘dismal science’ – he is known as ‘the man who saw the global crisis coming’.
You would expect therefore that his views would carry weight. In a radio he was asked about our own Government’s plans – to cut and cut and then cut again.
He said: “That is the way to create more unemployment……..it is very easy to turn a recession into a depression.”
It is worth recalling how we got into this mess in the first place.
My esteemed predecessor, Peter Cassells, featured on a recent Reeling in the Years programme on RTE. The year was 1999 and he was speaking about what we now know as the Ansbacher Affair and warning that such sharp – and crooked – activity never be allowed happen in our banks again.
But it has happened again…..and again….and again. The peculiar variant of crony capitalism that flourishes here has dogged our development as a nation, undermining our society time after time. At least with Ansbacher we eventually got to the truth but with Anglo Irish Bank – one year on – we do not know the full involvement of the Quinn Group or the role of the so called ‘Maple 10′. The three investigations seem to be moving at a snail’s pace.
But for staff of the bank – who played no role in this mess – the impact has been far swifter and far worse and is seen this week in the loss of several hundred jobs.
And for the rest of us, there is a bill of €54 billon for NAMA that will be presented to us on Budget Day.
We are in a bad, bad space and there is no pain free way of getting out of it. But there is a better, fairer way of doing so, if the Government is just willing to listen.
Consider what they are planning.
There are two essential pillars. The first has the goal of reducing our borrowing requirement to 3 percent by 2013. And that starts with a €4 billion cut in public spending in this budget.
But there is something funny going on here. Last April, the Government stated that it would find the €4 billion by way of tax and cuts – they had pencilled in about €2.5 billion by way of tax increases.
But this plan has ceased to exist. It was dropped without comment or complaint. And that is a testament to the huge influence of the rich and powerful in this country. They knew the taxes were for them, they saw them off.
The second pillar of public policy is dressed up as a device for fiscal correction, but in reality is a desire to impose pay cuts: on public and private alike. And cutting the minimum wage and social welfare rates is central to this.
The problem with both of these is that they will impart a severe deflationary shock to the economy, probably driving it into a long term slump. And if that happens we are in deep, deep trouble.
Congress has an alternative perspective, as reflected in our 10 Point Plan for a Better, Fairer Way.
It is intended to give us the breathing space that will allow us to deal with unemployment, with people in danger losing their homes, with collapsing private sector pensions.
In other words, it will give us the chance to deal with the social consequences of this recession, to attend to peoples’ needs.
It our view is that there are five levers available to Government: public expenditure, taxation, borrowing, time and economic growth We must use all of them. Confining ourselves to expenditure cuts only risks unraveling the very fabric of society.
That is why we want to extend the period in which we have to make this adjustment to 2017.
This 10 Point Plan for a better fairer way has provoked the ire and anger of the entire establishment. In recent days we have been attacked from every quarter including the Central Bank, the ESRI, the chattering commentariat that takes up far too much space in our media.
But the most raucous reaction has been from the dominant ‘neo-classical’ (neoliberal) school of economics.
Perhaps the explanation for this hysterical reaction is that we reminded them that the God of free market fundamentalism they worshipped has feet of clay and is no more.
Many people agree with us. Such as two Nobel Prize winning economists: Joseph Stiglitz and Paul Krugman. They say Government is wrong and we are right.
And even some who are ‘not of this parish’ agree with us:
President Sarkozy agrees;
The UK Treasury agrees;
The right wing Bruegel Group agrees;
The Financial Times agrees;
The Economist magazine agrees.
Could it be that what really bothers our opponents most is the possibility that we are right?
I must say, the coarseness of public debate since this recession began is to be regretted.
It reminds me of a rhetorical invention perfected by Ronald Regan when he ran for President in 1980. He told the story of a ‘Welfare Queen’ who was getting $150,000 tax free every year from the state, through scams and fraud. The story was fiction but it created a popular middle class backlash against the poor.
And this device of the ‘Enemy Within’ was used later used to great effect against the unions by Margaret Thatcher.
These days, the ‘Enemy Within’ in Ireland is the public servant. You would sooner admit that your father was in the Black and Tans than admit to being a council worker, a school secretary or a nurse.
The principal objective here is to split public and private workers. And it would be foolish of us to be distracted by this because:
…….no one is an Island;
…….families have members in both sectors;
and
…….if they succeed in cutting public sector pay rates it will be almost impossible to resist it across the private sector.
We are confronted with the choice between taking a brutal cut of €4 bn up front or trying to effect a more gentle adjustment over a longer period. We know for certain that the first option risks collapsing the economy and is a guarantee of more job losses.
Our alternative at least offers the possibility of preserving the social fabric of this society.
David Begg, Congress General Secretary
Dublin, November 6, 2009
{ Welfare Queen’ who was getting $150,000 tax free every year from the state, through scams and fraud }
….fits the profile of a manager of one of an Irish bank…..of maybe a board member of one of those 800 quangos that Ahern nurtured into excess and waste….
Or maybe Reagan was able to see where Mary O’Rourke would be in 2009….or maybe he was able to see the handy number of the ex-Taoiseach’s ex-girlfriend who is a director of a consumer affairs agency, where she make sure that nothing happens that might offend ditherers cronies….
I would critique Begg in regard to deflation. Sorry but we have had excessive inflation for a decade. Therefore if the system is to correct itself there will have to be deflation in order to reverse the damage done by excessive inflation.
This deflation can be accomodated the easy way – with everybody working extremely hard, and increasing aggregate productivity across the entire economy.
Or the hard way – with continual debt increases and then a systemic crash that destroys good parts of the economy. (the unsustainable economy destroying the sustainable economy).
Begg might also be in denial. Deflation is happening and it is inevitable. It is the result of all the overcharging and overborrowing.
Surely he must also know that he has absolutely no chance of seeing any reform, or transparency from either IBEC or the political establishment. As Senator Ross has told us many times before, IBEC has been bought by the banks.
Deco,
I have , having done so all my life, absolutely no intentention of working hard ever again. Once bitten twice shy. A fool to myself earning pittances and now reading about bonuses paid just for breathing.
That or reality TV HUC’S getting paid more in a quick deal than I’d earn in 10 years just to make a feckin eejit of themselves.
I’m, admittedly, going to polish off this nice buideal of vino, roar at Tubridy for being the clown of a fool he is and then sleep soundly knowing they can’t get me.
Heh Heh.
Furry: very succinct! LOL
Is Begg opposed to NAMA ? He seems opposed to it, but not that opposed to it, that he actually wants to tell the government straight up that he is opposed to NAMA.
Tim, while we are all busy reading your post maybe take a look at this link.
Seems like mr. Ahearne key interest is developing financial instruments for the global financial industry.
So, perhap’s NAMA was a grand job opportunity to get in the field prime on the job experience in this very specialized area of casino capitalism W.M.D’s.
Check out the final columns in article.
http://www.nuigalway.ie/staff/alan_ahearne/documents/business_and_finance_26_jan.pdf
wills…. Aha!
So, Because NAMA is so unique in the new-world-financial-order, Alan Ahearne has sold us all out, for his next “Gig”/Book-deal, because he will be the only “World Expert” on this new financial “instrument”?
Evil, amoral, pathological, psychotic little *!&@!!^%*!
tim, i’d prefer, one word, ‘unfortunate’, but, maybe he might be sussing the ‘inside’ nature of the going’s on and be taking a long term view on thing’s building up his expertise. Who know’s for sure, i certainly do not.
He has got likes to the federal reserve.. Not good if you ask me
Excellent Pravda report tonight about the control the system exercised on media, education, travel and thought processes.
That was RTE on the Iron Curtain 20 years on without any sense nor hint of irony when 80,000 marched in Dublin but 9 O’C Pravda reported 30, 000.
Is the weather true?
Who am I?
Gurb é a bheidh san fhianaise a thabharfar an fhírinne, an fhírinne iomlán agus an fhírinne amháin;
Oiche mhaith libh.
Oiche mhaith, agus codladh snamh, a chara!
For the truth, start at the back, they won’t lie about the sport. As you turn the pages, the truth you will find is merely that which someone wishes you to believe, until you get to the work of purest fiction: The front page.
As described to me by an aged reader of the London Times.
I worked in Poland quite often in 1990 & 91 – those people knew how to read a newspaper.
Dear David,
Apropos this article, I think that your reputation has been greatly compromised by your recent gaffes with the new book…. A publicity stunt that went wrong and which, I’m afraid only reflects poorly on you. I think that you may bitterly regret some of your comments for a long time..
interesting the protests taking place, its funny that its the peolple that have jobs are protesting against the goverment.With this sort of attitude fianna fail will think they are invincible, perhaps they are, where are the 500,000 unemployed ????
Just heard that Fianna Fail are giving the Polish 10 grand to leave Ireland (on the condition that they don’t come back for 10 years).
Is this actually true?
Could Fianna Fail be trying to manipulate the stats again (more or less buying votes without the cash to front it).
I heard it was 10 grand (in zloty) on condition they do come back and vote for FF at the next election.
Folks,
This here from Dan O’Brien in the IT. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1107/1224258274503.html
Says it all and says why we need to restart the whole political system from scratch. Nothing works here simply becasue of stupid voting system, and incompetence in misisterial positions. DMcW and the rest of us may as well be waving our genetalia at all the woes in this place for all the good it’ll do.
Philip: Good article by DanO’Brien. I wouldn’t agree with all his suggestions but he raises important issues for discussion. We continually get diverted away from the need for radical change in the political process by our anger at the legacy from past F. failed policies.
Brian Cowen told the Dail last Tuesday: “Anger is not a policy and does not provide a panacea.” For him, inertia is a far better solution to all FF’s problems. If change is inevitable, it must be allowed to happen only as slowly as possible. Otherwise Kildare St. might get upset.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/top-brains-shun-ireland-as-smart-economy-withers-1937095.html
Philip, digested this link all day yesterday and for me Dan is taking Ireland a step further along the long long winding road ahead of us as a nation to simply ‘get real and grow up!’
Malcolm:
‘if change is inevitable, it must be allowed to happen only as slowly as possible. Otherwise Kildare St. might get upset’.
That say’s it all really.
I see it as a internal struggle within each person on the ‘matrix’ clinging to their neurosis for as long as ‘reasonably’ possible (in the neroutic’s mind) before reality / change has it’s inevitable way with us all.
Listening too the meeja all week we have nothing but irrational bickering and finger pointing, to be expected really.
We see each person in a state of inner turmoil and conflict. Particularly with the public sector which consists of people who cling to security and safety one is faced with the following inner realities in my POV.
It’s all about comfort…
-how much comfort can i get without having too work
-how much can i get away with having too work and,
-how much comfort can i hang onto before i take on more responsibility. ( which is crucial for most neurotics chose neurosis as a substitute for legitimate suffering).
*this post is not a value judgement it is observation and intended for constructive debate.
Posters.
Ireland as a society is at a juncture like no other in its rather young nationhood history.
The ‘economics’ of Ireland to – day are banjaxed.
This time if we as a nation are to ‘get out’ of the financial ‘mess’ it seem’s that this time the only way forward is if everyone accept’s equally their level of responsibility on a few thing’s, some of which are the following
-one must accept one is overpaid.
-one must accept ones role in the POnzi property bubble.
-one must accept the quantity of greed one fell prey too.
-one must make sure one is not been made bear the suffering for one’s neighbours refusal too folllow suit.
Ireland is checkmated in it’s emotional immaturity and to exit the financial dillemma will demand truthful cooperation from all sector’s in equitable distribution of the burden of cost recompensed from the top down.
So, the more over paid you are the more you are going to take in cut’s.
i can’t see for the life of me any other way out of this socio economic political log jam without sparking civil unrest.
Wills: If you could get everyone to sign up to this manifesto it might make a first step towards economic recovery.
I love it . Where can I get the uniform ? But the part that really excites me is the making sure my neighbours follow suit .Who do I report them to ? You ? Some kind of cuts police ?
Maybe reeducation camps ? We could ship them off in trucks .
Bus drivers would be first on my list and then we sit back and wait for son’s to report Fathers etc .
you missed the *. Will put it in.
Alan42: your identity is becoming clearer perhaps!
Posters.
Idea’s in post above and all my posts are merely contributions towards some type of a constructive debate.
Ideas are good but you are proposing that we become a police state with ‘ one must make sure one is not been made bear the suffering for ones’s neigbours refusal to follow suit ‘
Expand on that point . How will we enforce it ?
alan42:
I re – checked my post and i could not find anywhere any mention of ‘police state’.
As i already qualified, my use of ‘must’ is not perfect, for goodness sake, i’m not sitting a PH D exam in victorian english, it’s a blog, on the worldwide web.
Readers of post 35.
Please read the term ‘must’ in it’s open and neutral impersonal use in relation to a general thrust of thinking action.
obliged.
Wills
Bock the Robber:
Interesting solution forwarded, specifically in relation to such powers suggested for the running of NAMA.
How rip roaring hilarious it could turn out, following the coverage of the NAMA cop’s hunting down the vendor’s for the excess POnzi monies paid out too them for the land banks.
An idea not too far removed from the reality NAMA itself is creating for the taxpayer.
wills, if DMcW is correct here:
http://www.sbpost.ie/commentandanalysis/worstcase-scenario-looms-45476.html
…., it is going to get pretty interesting, alright.
But that article may just be hinting to us that the SPV needs closer examination.
It has been my contention that the 51% private ownership trick will circumvent the competition laws.
Incidentally, did you hear Inda Kinny on radio today, calling it a special “Purchases” vehicle, instead of “Purpose”?
Does he really not know what SPV means, or was this a Freudian-slip?
tim,
indy ‘s mind was probably distracted on figuring out the best way to consign too history the Seanad!
The SPV / private ownership trick, more dennis the menace hi – jink’s!!
Sooner or later this ‘mirage’ making device SPV will turn blue and relinquish all the ‘skeleton’s in the closet’ it’s been used to hide and then when it does we can all get on with living life in enlightened self interest and be good boy’s and girl’s.
will hutton say’s it better.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/08/will-hutton-wall-street-corruption
wills, I do not think that Hutton does say it better;
I think that YOU say it better.
Folks, some interesting inferences to be drawn here:
http://thestory.ie/2009/11/07/taoiseachs-diary-april-19-1998-to-march-31-1999/
Don’t let the ’98 – ’99 time-period throw you off the scent.
Alan42:
Please, when you can, take a look at this link below, it explain’s with more finesse what my post at 35 attempted too out lay.
Here it is, and in my humble viewpoint the state of thing’s too come if anyone is serious about real solutions.
http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/wholestory.aspx-qqqt=VINCENT+BROWNE-qqqs=commentandanalysis-qqqsectionid=3-qqqc=5.1.0.0-qqqn=1-qqqx=1.asp
A solution to the aging population is to do what the West done between 1900 to 1940 and that is the following:
1 Euthanasia for the aged eg every person over 60 will be terminated
2 Eugenics for the best eg people that come from successful families and society are allowed to breed everyone else will be sterilised
Here is a link that showed the USA commenced on the above tactics and other Euroopean countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#United_States
It actually makes sense to do because the west is rich and the World is over populated and the more people we have the worse its going to get for the World Climate.
In the Uk it has been shown scientifically that children are the cause of societies ills and alot of women should be sterilised because of the bad genes been brought into society.
Good to see the Resident Fringe hasn’t been put down yet!
Rather than playing the player, gquinn, I shall play the ball. As I really hope you had a bit of a ‘turn’ or stopped taking tablets of some sort (hot tip, don’t post or text when yer thus incapacitated).
If we were to implement your fascist plan, I would suggest we start with those given (according to scans) perfectly functional brains yet who display pathological tendencies. Those with ideas like yours might be best served to warm up the ‘termination’ machinery to ensure maximum efficiency when it got to terminating the ‘useful’ people.
Seriously, you should take better care of your passwords. Is clear a dangerous fool has hijacked your keyboard. Stay alert man (woman, sentient being, whatever you are. I do pity you though).
Well Ruairi, I completly agree with you but try and not jump to conclusions to quickly. What I have described above is already happening in the UK.
In the UK they have indeed brought out a scientific study that says Children is the cause of societies ills. Also people in the UK hate Children because of the media brainwashing that has been going on. What I have wrote above is the way people in the UK currently view the Eugenics program.
The problem is Ireland is so far behind the rest of Europe that we see it what it really is but the rest of Europe does not.
Think about it, in the Uk the population is just over 60 million people and growing same in France, Germany, Spain and Italy. This is why the rest of Europe is thinking about a eugenics program.
The reason why Hitlers book “Mein Kampf” is banned in Europe is because it contains the blueprint of the Eugenics program that Europe will be implementing. Also the Eugenics plan is to bring the World population down and it will be done in the name of Global warming and climate change.
Also Hitler was a National Socialist and that is exactly what the European Union is. Europe is a National Socialist State and we the great and faiteful Irish people just signed upto it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
Don’t shoot down the messenger in future.
To all, apologies, as in that sliding tackle, I did attempt to catch the man also. Presuming the worst. I didn’t read you as a ‘messenger’ at all in your initial post, more so a passive cheerleader. Apologies.
Whatever about Europe, never worry about Ireland. We have plenty of ‘idealists’ to resist that sort of thing, when it comes a knocking. And if that’s our destiny, then I can’t wait. Because I might as well say it, I was born on the wrong era. The sooner our ‘betters’ uncloak themselves, the better. While I’m young and indefatigable.
No problem Ruairi.
The problem is we now cannot vote on any eugenics program but we must implement the laws being passed down from the European parliament and if we don’t then we get fined. Look out for Ireland having to implement abortion soon.
Here is an article on the eugenics program as you can see they have been working on it since at least 2001.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/europe/1272125.stm