The other day, while travelling by train to an interesting conference organised by Network Ireland in Westport, I was struck by just how lush our country is. Field after field of well irrigated, arable land suggested that we are probably not touching close to our agricultural potential and that is despite the fact that agriculture is still our biggest indigenous industry.
Having spent much of this year in the dry arid desert of Western Australia and the intensively cultivated rural hinterland of China, where land and food supply are crucial to keeping the economic miracle fed, it seemed to me that agriculture will play a significant part in any recovery.
Think about it. The world’s population will increase to nine billion by 2050 from 6.8 billion today. Someone has to feed these people. Over the past few years the yields in agriculture have remained stable. Having exploded throughout the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s with the green revolution, and its intensive use of oil-based fertiliser, yields are now growing at only 1pc a year.
As we saw two years ago, when the price of oil rises, because we use so much oil-based fertiliser, the price of food rises too and in many cases very rapidly. This led to food riots in over a dozen countries before the financial crisis diverted our attention. But the link between food and oil prices hasn’t gone away.
For a few months, as the world faced a global meltdown, the price of oil collapsed simply because there was no demand and, technically, there was another issue because some of the hedge funds that had driven the prices through the roof had to sell, and sell quickly. But oil prices didn’t stay low for long. They are creeping back upwards now and the price of crude is $74 a barrel — nine times what it was a decade ago.
As the world economy recovers, this will once again become a dominant issue. This also means that, from a cost basis, the price of food, even without billions of new mouths to feed, will rise.
Now, superimpose the population forecast of the UN on this cost structure and we can see that the world is facing a new food crisis.
In fact, odd as it may sound to a generation used to pictures of starvation in Africa, Africa could feed the world in the next 50 years. If you doubt this, think of Ireland. In one generation we went from famine to plenty in this country. Clearly there were other factors at play, but increases in yields as well as depopulation played a role.
Around the world, there are a few huge growth areas, where investment could dramatically raise yields. The former breadbasket of Europe, Ukraine, has huge potential. The former Soviet Republic has 30pc of the world supply of chernozem soil, rated the most productive in the world. However, corruption and under-investment have caused chaos in Ukrainian agriculture in the past decade.
So what does this mean for Ireland? Well, it means the biggest industrial opportunity for decades for large Irish agricultural firms. We have the know-how, the technology and the connections with the rest of the world to create a giant agricultural multinational, which invests in land in places like Ukraine and Africa and helps the people of these countries.
Think about Africa, someone is going to invest there and reap huge financial as well as moral rewards, why not us? This is a chance to get on the right side of a huge opportunity which we now are certain will emerge and Enterprise Ireland could be well served focusing on agricultural companies as any others. Interestingly, the number of companies involved in agriculture and food featured in the Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the Year this year has more than doubled.
In terms of what we are doing at home, although there is huge merit in focusing on small artisan farming as represented by groups like ‘Good Food Ireland’, the facts about the decline in farming can’t be overlooked. There are currently 138,200 family farms in the country, average size 32.3 hectares. But by 2015, it is predicted that there will only be 40,000 full-time farmers in the country — compared with 230,000 full-time farmers in the 1970s. And only 13pc of Irish farmers are under 35.
Future market needs will be for fewer, larger, more intensive farms. In 2008, agriculture accounted for 10pc of Ireland’s exports and 8.5pc of employment, so it is still a huge, if declining industry.
Recently the Green Party has suggested making Ireland GM free. While there are many who might see this as a positive move, one of the disadvantages of this is that we cut ourselves off from technological innovation, which might cause yields to rise.
The most significant point, as our farmers take to the roads again, is that they should be listened to. Far too much economic debate in this country has been focused on the next big thing. With the world’s population doubling, farming is part of “the smart economy”.
Ireland could be a player in this boom on an international level as our existing companies go looking for opportunity in Africa and beyond and we could do more to make our farmers here feel that there is a future in the game.
Once a farmer stops farming it is a very difficult thing to rediscover; skills are lost as are contacts and what many call, the “feel for the land”.
Just as the world is about to enter an agricultural boom, it would be a shame if we presided over the gradual strangulation of our agriculture. Then again, given the lack of foresight in this country, it would be typical of us to fail to see the opportunity and end up having no agricultural capacity, just when the rest of the world is crying out for it.
It really is getting unbelievable the level of hypocrisy and nonsense we are getting from Kildare St.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/harney-imf-will-run-country-unless-cuts-are-made-430504.html
This from the fool who told us all that her mate, Prof. Drumm (long time PD supporter) was worth 70 grand of a bonus, when he has already indicated that he will be stepping down. And 70 grand for what ? the mess that is the HSE.
Maybe she might sober up and stop uttering this type of nonsense. Perhaps Mrs. Harney was given advice by the only TD worth his salt, Dr. Jerry Cowley. The establishment hated Cowley. They deliberately ignored him. Unfortunately with Cowley gone we have that other waste of space BCF instead. Apparently “she is a class act”.
The problem with this country is that we have too much obsession with class, too much acting and we are controlled by a collection of “class acts”.
She might also want to apologise for earlier threats that the population had to support Lisbon 2.0 or else the country would go down the tubes and the IMF would take over.
I know a very effective way to reduce the budget of the Department of Health. Sack her and all her cronies. The HSE would run better without any management at all.
I mean when you arrive at caualty in Beaumont or Blanch, you want nurses and doctors – not Prof Drumm’s management hierarchy made up of life long cronies, and former PD activists, ILP activists, etc..
And now the GP wants to do the same wherever and whenever it can.
Deco,
I think Harney, Lenihan & Cowen are talking sense this week when saying we need big cuts. I’m hoping they go implement them, and stop wasting money hand over fist.
Paddy
Paddy, we don’t need these eejits to inform us we need big cut’s now do we.
Wills, if ‘us’ includes Jack O’Connor, David Begg, Blair Horan, Liam Doran, the GRA, and all the other fellow travellers, I’d have to disagree with you.
Just awaiting the upcoming conflict. Both sides have been dancing around the issue for the past 18 months, time to nip it in the bud.
Paddy
paddy, catch your drift. Thing is though, these fellas know the ‘good times’ are over and are merely playing a game of wait and see and in the meantime play dumb and pick up a stink until the coast is clear and everyone is taking a cut and not just anyone in particular.
i’m thinking if they’re all employing this tactic know one is going to be first up for the chop.
The IMF threat is highly predictable.
The crony gov are moving to the next phase installing NAMA.
The axing on gov expenditure is part of the deal with ECB to secure cash for bonds under NAMA.
Again it’s avoiding taking responsibility and passing the buck. In this case it’s, sure if we dont make the cuts IMF will kill us, it’s the IMF making us do it.
No, it’s the creasing of the economy thats making you do it, and the crippling of the economy happened because a banking oligopoly released into the economy tsunami of credit that unleashed a bubble and destroyed it.
Another interesting thing is, the battle lines are been drawn between those who are with NAMA and its repercussions and those who are not more and more and possibly by the time NAMA is installed the country will between an incompatible diffrence, those who are anti NAMA and those who are not.
Folks, I am getting so sick of it, I almost cannot post.
Deco, you are right, and correct; wills, you are too.
I will replenish the batteries by going to sleep, now and return, saying:
Let’s keep at it!
I firmly agree farming in general should be backed by the state but how can farmers make money when there cronies are controlling the meat factories.Try make a living when they pay 2.85e a kg and .22 for milk.If we create large factory farms the qaulity of the food will deteriate rapidly and the very thing that makes irish food will be lost
Maybe Farmers have just lost contact to a certain extent with the end users of their products i.e. consumers.Maybe that dis-location is what causes the tension between the two. Farmers are looking for recognition for their position but consumers deal with the end supplier in the food chain and only see farmers looking for more money on top of their subsidies and will mean prices will rise if their claim is successful.The fact is both sides are being held to ransom by all the rent takers or middlemen. The factories ,cash & carry’s, supermarkets etc. are what stands in the middle, with of course the Government collecting their slice as the product progresses from farm to mouth. Consumers wont pay more in a recession but will turn to substitutes instead and thats a well known Economic fact so in the absence of some technological improvement to reduce costs,then a hierarchy of claims between the rest needs to be thrashed out and hence the conflict, with each trying to justify their existance as well as their % in money terms.Thats the free market folks.Thats what people need to understand and adapt to, simple as that.
Farmers Journey
Cheque Mate Charlie
Choices ;
1 Commence Process Production of all Farm Products as a start up funded from farmers and controlled by farmers with ethical management enschrined in its constitution ; or/ and
2 Acquire controlling interest in all existing farm product processing units by asserting their ethical policies thus leaving the process companies knowing very well that they must aquiesce or go out of business .
Repeat the same for Fishermen
Farmers and Fishermen need to remove themselves from classroom politics of lifting up their hands to go to the toilets every time .They should just go and do it what they have to do .Nature and Economics will tell them what is best.They hold all the balls so they should play them well.
Very well said John :)
There’s an awful lot of Irish people putting their hand up to talk in the last 11 yrs. Fear of FF I think. Or the ruling class they represent (although those sands are somewhat shifting beneath them).
People have a lot more power than they think. They need to start making their social power felt. eg I didn’t like Ryaniairs’ over entreé into a referendum issue. Hence, I won’t fly Ryanair again. as God is my judge.
If farmers are serious about self-preservation and self-emolument, then really, and I mean really get down to the strategic disempowerment of the intermediaries. It CAN be done.
Ryanair’s overt (and vulgar) entreé
Folks, if these “Professional Investors’ wagers (gambling, again!) are sound indicators, ECB interest rates will start to rise next June. Combined with higher taxes, more pay cuts and job losses, it will not be just the highly indebted farmers that will be failing to service their debts; and NAMA will not be able to save people who got over-sized mortgages in the last 5 years. Get ready to “duck and cover”!
http://www.derekbrawn.com/Baserates.html
On NAMA.
Freezes property prices from falling back to market equilibrium price, beyond bubble prices.
So, NAMA is a mechanism to preserve bubble pricing and keep property pricing outside of the laws of the free market system restoring property price to fair market price on true market value.
We are told this must be done to ‘get credit flowing again’.
So, we are rigging the prices of property in this country of ours Ireland in order to facilitate the private banks turning the credit tap back on.
The private banks declaim the only way for credit to return is for the removal of ‘bad loans’ off their books and the banking plumbing will be freed up to restore the flow of credit.
NAMA is the bucket the ‘bad loans’ gunge goes and the price tag is paid by the taxpayers.
The ‘gunge’ cannot be sold off for less than a set price or else at that point the taxpayer will loose out.
The banks we are told ‘if they take the hit, the loss, and let the loan assets go for present market equilibrium price, the private banks will go bust.
We are told this cannot let happen. We are told we must save the banks by paying for the ‘gunge’ in their plumbing’ the banks put there, we are told we must buy this gunge not at the market eqilibrium price but at a rigged price set which we are told is really the price the loan assets will be in the near future.
The mystic meg price we are been forced against our collective will to pay our monies out on is in fact a bubble price and not the real market equilibrium price if the market was allowed set on the loan assets.
We are instructed by the powers at be that this is the only solution. That, we must pay out our monies for a overpriced bucket of ‘gunge’ and then take hostage the market in which we will sell this gunge in the future so as we will get our money back that we gave to the bank for the gunge in the first place. The gunge that the banks own.
Meanwhile the banks will take the our monies for the gunge and stash it away for themselves, and, escape the punishment for destroying the economy by flooding it in credit that caused the gunge in the first place.
So, the banks profited from the release of the gunge into their plumbing. and, avoid paying for the cost of the clean up of the gunge out of their plumbing.
We are told we have no choice.
We are told we dont really understand the nature of the problem.
We are told we must do it or we will all die.
We are told the banks are our special friends and we cannot live without them.
We are told, whether we like it or not we are going to pay out of our own pockets the monies to the banks whether we like it or not.
We are told the banks are inexpendible, even thought he banks have destroyed our economy and are now stealing our wage and salaries to for them to get rid of the gunge so the private banks can return there plumbing back to the way it was before they deliberately put the gunge into it.
We are told we are living in a democracy.
We are told this is normal, this is ok, this is the way business is done.
Really.
?
On NAMA. The proponents rational.
This is how it goes.
First, acknowledge the condition that they the banks created.
Second, never accept responsibility for their role in creating it the problem.
Third, blame the taxpayer.
wills, the pro-NAMA guns are lining up, alright; I was told today that Pat McArdle actually said (at a conference in Kenmare), that Morgan Kelly “should not be allowed to speak, in the National interest”.
Go figure?
I always think that the dissenting-voice is the most important voice in the room; it is the one voice that causes us to re-think our position and either confirm or change that position – both of which being very valuable decisions.
Some other idiot (sorry that I cannot remember who it was – will revert), actually said that Morgan Kelly “talked-down the economy, just to prove himself right”!!!!!
Hermeneutic of suspicion, by Jurgan Habermas, is required!
Watch the spin, folks!
Folks, it was the Bankers at the Kenmare conference that said “Morgan Kelly “talked-down the economy, just to prove himself right”!!!!!”
McArdle used to be the “independent” chief economist with Ulster Bank, who was predicting the “soft landing” in 2006 – the guy to listen to, now, so?
posters. Off the thread here but, follow up on swine flu jab poison, check out this link and be stunned.
http://www.theflucase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1130%3Adoctors-call-decision-by-top-german-government-officials-to-take-another-vaccine-a-qscandalq&catid=41%3Ahighlighted-news&Itemid=105&lang=en
wills, but, sure, you couldn’t have all those people around, living an’ all, when your global financial system collapses. How could you rise from the ashes, with so many mouths to feed?
http://www.libertiespress.com/ireland-in-2050.html
In today’s Indo Alan Ruddock suggests that the penny finally dropped this week in Leinster House, with the realization that the country is, indeed, Broke.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/penny-drops-on-pay-cuts-as-imf-threat-loomsa-new-mood-of-public-sector-austerity-is-sweeping-through-government-has-grim-reality-dawned-or-is-it-all-spin-asks-alan-ruddock-1917110.html
My guess is now that Ireland’s vote on Lisbon is safely done and dusted, the ECB simply turned off their monetary life-support-machine.
The cash transfusion has ceased flowing, the bank ventilator has been unplugged and regular spikes on the financial heartbeat indicator screen have sunk to a level line.
Are you getting the message Mr. Cowan?
But Malcolm, treaties are ther language of international love, are they not? :-)
I say let’s vote for it a 3rd time. I want to vote yes. I’m ashamed I voted twice. I wanna hold hands with Mary Harney, Eoin O duffy and Lucifer himself. Just gimme gimme gimme some of that dough bise
Ruari: Maybe it was just a coincidence that Lenihan warned that ministers and senior civil servants face swinging pay cuts on the very same day that McAleese signed the Treaty. It certainly concentrated his mind on the fact that he has crossed that Rubicon.
I would say indeed part of the country is broke, one section of the country is broke, the sharecropper taxpayer section is broke. The banking oligopoly / vested interests / wealth owners section of the country has never been richer. I think at this juncture this delineation now is central to maintain clarity of debate going forward.
The feudal lords strata are safe as houses and engineering away in the background to protect and preserve their wealth going forward into the brave new world they have in mind for the rest of society, which appears now to be full on ‘debt peeonage’
If one take a look at the credit tsunami one very distinct characteristic emerges. Most of the credit funneled into property and property speculation and so a deliberate inflating of a property bubble.
The banking powers knew what this would do. It would end in a disaster whereupon the real economy starved of investment and enterprise would rot and the regular joe participants of the property bubble casino for the most part would end up in long term debt peeonage.
Thus, the banks conspired to return a sector of Ireland back to feudalism and debt peeonage.
NAMA keeps this sector in debt peeonage long term into the future. NAMA is the seal on the return to feudalism scam. Freezing the debt peeonage from devaluing.
There are those who should ‘ve known better and rented. These are the poor sod’s now debt enslaved and having to spend the rest of their days paying the debts back the banks so irresponsibly lent to them.
The banks acted criminally doing this. The banks also knew that when the bubble burst the gov would bail them out or the ECB, this is why they kept on lending right up to the final bankrupting of their own making.
The banking institutions must be held to account for this social engineering and deliberate hoodwinking of a section of eejits who let themselves be taken in.
The banking institutions must be held to account for carrying out a deliberate policy of predatory lending.
The banking institutions must be held to account for drying up lending to real business and the real productive economy.
The banking institutions must be made realise the losses on their loans on their books are next to been worthless, which they knew would happen, and if anything else be nationalised, purged of the supremacist contagion running the banks, and then and only then re-capitalized.
Malcolm, you may be right; but I just cannot get away from the feeling that we are simply getting more spin.
See Michael Taft on the ESRI projections on the real economy due to govt cuts being deflationary and causing more damage than we should have to bear:
http://www.progressive-economy.ie/2009/10/imf-tanks-in-square.html
The ESRI are a shower of useless clowns who completely failed to see the crisis coming, either the domestic or the international variety.
The deflation will happen whether the ESRI like it or not. When the Government eventually returns the likes of these bums to subsistence level renumeration, the country will have turned the corner.
Paddy
paddythepig, but they will never cut “the likes of these bums”, Paddy; They will leave these 100k+ guys alone and just cut the frontliners.
There are more frontliners than “higher-ups”, so an obvious target for the soft-option. The frontliners are all PAYE, as well, so its like fish in a barrell, unlike the “companies” of the RTE stars, etc, who can do some creative accounting to off-set any cuts.
Mistakes are all over the place, though: Private sector companies giving employment, that have some service-contracts with govt agencies are being dropped, due to the cuts.
Many of these companies will “go-to-the-wall” and throw more people on the dole.
Cuts are in the “false-economy” realm, beyond a certain threshold.
Stimulus: money must spin-through the economy and return to the exchequer.
Tim, the problem is so severe that by the end of it, unthinkable things will happen – like a re-evaluation of a useless think-tank. But I do take your point ; in any unravelling process, cuts can be allocated unfairly.
We’ve had a 24 billion stimulus packge this year. Our children have contributed enough to save our bacon. It’s time to take the medicine, and get the bums out of their cushy numbers.
Paddy
http://www.southernstar.ie/article.php?id=1585
Old Senator Leyden isn’t suffering from “Penny Dropped” syndrome it would appear.
Loads of expenses generating junkets in lieu of a paycut??
tim, spin is right.
The guilty do not want to take responsibility for the fact they are over paid, bloated and living beyond their means.
The guilty do not want property prices returning to market equilibrium. So, disposable income will continue to all go to mortgages and rent in sum’s way beyond sane budgeting.
Noises will keep coming out from the hegemony ruling classes the country is in dire straits when in fact they mean the serf class economics is in dire straits, and the ruling class need to fix it cos if they do not they will have to start paying for it out of there own pocket.
I really think Ireland is now divided along neo feudal lines and looking at all of this through a feudal – sefdom len’s is going to reveal the reality of the machinations underway now as the revenue streams dry up more and more and the banking oligopolies who orchestrated this economic blow out press gang the technocrats to get busy quick sharecropping the taxpayer serfs to ensure the blow back does not reach into the powers at be coffers.
wills, yes; you will have noticed all the spin lately about the top 4% of earners paying 48% of all taxes collected? That’s so we all shut up about it when the rich get off lightly in the budget again. I don’t know about you and the other people here, but the wealthy people I know have good accountants and avail of every avoidance scheme and tax-break available; they pay little or no direct taxation. So this is spin.
I suspect that over 60% of income tax revenue collected comes from the PAYE earners, as they have no choice, no wizard accountants or “book-chefs” and their money is taken from them at source; so that is who will get hit hardest in the budget, if income tax is raised.
If tax is not increased and Public sector wages are cut instead, that will be further deflationary because the exchequer gets most of this money back anyway (from those earning less than €60-70k, say, who cannot afford to tuck it away anywhere), but it spins through the real economy first, maintaining jobs and translating into downline prsi, paye and vat.
If they cut this further, it will simply increase the effect we have seen since April, just as the ESRI figures show in the link above.
The spin on NAMA is that it is the only way to get the banks lending to business again; at what point will the govt cop-on that its current measures of taking money out of the economy and giving billions to the banks is ruining the very businesses they say they want the banks to lend to? At what point will govt realise that it should have been stimulating the economy for those businesses for 18 months already, to save/protect/promote jobs and, thus, move towards balancing its own books, with revenue inward?
From all the evidence, our representatives appear to have confused the economy with the banking system; they think one equalls the other.
tim, getting into this nitty gritty is really frustrating and picking apart the crude to get too the lies and the truth.
For certain though is this. The ‘elite’ whomever they be will make sure they do not pay a dime more than they have to to maintain the status quo.
Also, the ‘elite’ possess little debt, and the debt they own does not keep them awake at night.
Also, the ‘elite’ are interlocked with each other across IBEC, Gov, banking, union;s, law, accountancy as one, operating in unison all bounded together for a common purpose, the cost of the banking POnzi swindle will not come out of their wealth, before they’ve ensured that the sharecropper taxpayer serf has been squeezed like a lemon first.
This now becomes a who’s the master who’s the serf logic kicking in. These ruling elite have moved on from NAMA and LISBON and are working together fixing the burden and the cost of the property POnzi swindle diligently keeping ahead of the worker and setting the news agenda.
We must keep up with the speed of events and keep calling their bluff.
wills, I must disagree with this one bit:
“Also, the ‘elite’ possess little debt, and the debt they own does not keep them awake at night. ”
Correction: the elite gambled on bank shares and property and have lost HUGE; that’s why NAMA is going to save them and why the end of your sentence is correct; their debt wont keep them awake at night, once NAMA passes their debt to us.
tim, the system now comprises of those who are slung out on debt and those who are not. Whether it be debt on limited or unlimited liability. The elites are set materialistic regarding all else. Debt for them is secondary and incidental. No matter how large a loss on an investment their personal wealth remains intact so debt for them is not an issue.
For example, somebody who owns a house and is free of mortgage is set. They are free of a fundamental worry, roof over head, and so also free of another worry, health expense. They are not serfs. Is it 50% of homes are owned outright, stat supplied by Malcolm. These people are not serfs.
The top elite who lost on what you indicated is for them a non worry. When one weighs up their losses over time against the profits they come out heads up.
Also, they’re personal wealth is secure and so thus they are free from worry they are not enslaved to debt.
The ‘toilers’ / lower downers / serf’s who do not own house are enslaved by the debt on the house and are canon fodder for the property owners who will exploit their vulnerable position and milk this sector for every dime.
This sector generally will be the next generation on the up cos’ they are only just in on the property ladder so assets are not paid off. These people are in all walks of life and have been set up to be the next batch of slaves just like our generation was before and the wheel of slavery keeps turning and turning and turning.
THe generation i’m referring too will be the 22 – 30 years old generation say, and they have been taking to the cleaners. Most of them would have had no clue as to how the private banking system operates debt to enslave and bubble inflate and transfer wealth upwards. There are always a few who cotton onto it, (hand up), but most sally forth into enslaving system and end up on the rack.
NAMA is, in my POV is the top elites stealing monies yep, but they do not need these monies they are already secure wealth wise and debt to them is next to irrelevant for they will have monies squirreled away and personal assets free of debt. Their debt will be business related and this will fall under limited liability.
wills, I agree; but I think the elite got excited with the property bubble and screwed-up by investing heavily in it.
That’s why their political cronies are inventing NAMA to save them.
tim. on the ‘…..are inventing NAMA to save them’, this is referring to the elites business debts i take it, that, the taxpayer is saving the top elite from their business debts?! or, re-imbursing them on their losses they refuse to accept they should absorb.
and also, the elites business debts are non comparable to the sharecropper taxpayers debts, apples and oranges.
The elites / sector of the communtiy who are debt free on a personal basis ie own their house outright are going to be also the crew who are paid highest wags and salaries etc and these are the sector that should be squeezed from all angles to cough up the xtra revenue now needed. These are the crew that are obliged first to take the cuts most. They must shoulder the costs first and the most before the serf’s / those in who are not debt free on an personal level are squeezed and these should only be squeezed the least.
wills, these boyos bet the house, out of jealousy (thinking they were losing-out) on the bubble.
They are in danger of falling to the level of the serf.
That is why the govt is instituting NAMA to hoover-up their mistake and keep them where they believe they belong: at the top.
Their mistakes are the reason why their buddies in govt will hand the serfs the €54billion bill for the bail-out.
wills, remember the use of the term, “personal guarantee”?
They used it; they dropped the Ltd. company thing to jump on the bandwagon of the property bubble, abandonned all prudence – just like AIB and BoI did, to “catch-up with ANGLO, the “upstart”.
They bet the house, and lost.
Your “feudal-Lords” screwed-up, wills; They lost control. NAMA is their means of regaining what they lost. That’s why it is so extreme.
wills, NAMA “restores” the “Ltd” piece of the puzzle, for them. It removes their risk and their loss and places their loss upon us – just as the Ltd thing has done to the taxpayer for so long, while “Businesses” do their “lease, fleece and leave” thing; taking a punt on some venture, with taxpayer money propping them up through Enterprise Ireland Grants and sich-like; then, “fold” the company and start-up again the next week under a new name.
The taxpayer, even, looks after the company’s ex-employees: the dole.
…. and the problem, now, is: they screwed-up so BADLY, that there are not enough viable companies paying tax in order to prop-up the grants and the companies and the dole; so the govt will cut the dole and public services and institute NAMA to pay for the “back-draft” of money to the gambling elite.
Wills, w.r.t god bless etc, think I have tried to indicate, that it was said in jest, in my experience its become something of an anachronistic expression, for various reasons, so perhaps was offered with a degree of irony.
Re the OP:
its taken thousands of years (but merely a blink of an eye in the history of DNA) for human farmers to domesticate plant crops and certain animals, neither of which in their current forms would ever have spontaneously existed in nature. We have selected for particular phenotypes and changed entire species at the level of their DNA. This is the process of domestication, and is the fundamental basis of all farming. In your words, we have been playing ‘God’ for at least 10,000 years.
DNA and genes can ultimately be reduced to the level of information and anything that exists in the information domain will scale with Moore’s Law (in terms of speed reliability, cost etc). History has shown us that the technology will drive the cost down to the level of possibly making GM techniques affordable for individual farmers. GM is something that will become part of food production so it is essential that it is considered as a major part of a smart economy. This suggests to me it is something we should be prepared to deal with, and where possible take advantage of. Not to do so would seem to be pretty stupid. To leave it up exclusively to the private sector profit motives alone is risky, both in terms of health and of security of supply.
Like most of the countries problems (including NAMA) its probably best to get to grips with the facts in the first instance. People may think GM immoral according to certain beliefs, as they are entitled to do, however their beliefs will not prevent others from doing whatever they want to do, so our beliefs are irrelevant (How ironic that people would regard this assertion as ‘ill-informed’).
Not a problem liam, not atall.
The ‘ill informed’ quip related to my POV been misunderstood that’s all, it wasn’t directed at your understanding specifically on the topic.
If anything as far as i’m concerned whatever it’s worth, you are more informed than i am on alot of topics. Particular in science.
My take on GM is moreso workable along the lines of copyright law. I see the gene code’ s of life written by a software programmer of super intelligence and i reckon if mankind is going to take it upon himself to re write the codes he ought to seek the permission of the copyright owner first.
Like I said, we’ve been doing it since before we dreamed up gods! Well, this is getting in to a discussion about mysticism now and I think we better stop.
Actually, you’ve missed the point completely: In 1903 I am sure there were plenty of people around who thought “if God had meant us to fly, he would have given us wings” etc. That didn’t prevent two deviant bicycle makers from Dayton, Ohio from making a viable flying machine. The rest is history. Developing and refining GM techniques will become considerably easier than developing and refining aeroplanes. I think that is significant in the GM story and thus agriculture in general.
liam. Fair point. I’m all for scientific progress. And flying machines i love. Boy’s own stuff GM ain’t. Science can be both beneficial and unleash death. Providing the mean’s through which mankind can re configure the building blocks of food can be done i’m sure. I don’t want my food GM’d, it’s tresspassing on cosmic law.
Again wills you are completely missing the point. What you believe is IRRELEVANT. GM foods will be produced and they will impact on farming in Ireland. You might as well say you object to the sky being blue: it will satisfy your own ego and make not a jot of difference. We can stand on the moral high ground while we send our pregnant daughters to the UK for legal abortions, but GM will be unavoidable.
Regarding cosmic laws and other such mysticism, clearly you are not ‘all for’ this science stuff if you object to it based on this kind of (non)reasoning. This is probably the biggest problem a smart agri economy faces as you are most certainly not the only one who accepts such views as absolute truth. That and the crony capitalist farmers lobby’s who will do anything to resist change.
Liam. Lets agree to disagree. I respect the fact you forsee GM food polluting our ecosystem here in Ireland, coming soon. I forsee stiff resistance and my anti GM food stance is based on as i’ve outlined.
What i believe is ‘irrelevant’. This involves a third party. Are you saying what i believe is irrelevant to GM fanatic’s, if so, i agree it is, quite obviously so, ‘cos GM corporates have steamrolled over any civic concern for proof that GM food is safe.
Ok what else, the one thing i do object to in the sky is the release of chemtrails into the atmosphere poisoning the air.
On satisfying my ego let me remark the following. My ego is significantly toned as is my id and my sexual. aggression and anxiety impulses are fully under the regulation of my ego. It took me approx 10 years to secure impulse mastery.
Einstein didn’t dismiss cosmic law in the way you do and i reckon maybe you ought to keep an open mind on cosmic law, even a little.
And, i am all for science, just not the destructive stuff it invented.
Finally, on GM food. It’s arrival into Ireland will never happen, thank’s to the green party’s new program for government. Something good came out of crony government after all.
I am sorry if I have been too clinical in my assessment of your beliefs and I apologies for any offence this might have caused. But, again, your on the wrong target here.
So the Greens think they can save us with their bullshit. Well, lets see how Irish farmers dependent on an export market compete in a post GM world. Which I was I was getting at.
Einstein’s belief’s are also irrelevant. He was just too dumb to understand the point of QM, thus proving that at some point, everyone’s an idiot.
Liam. I can rest assure your good self i do not take offence. On what you think i am offended by i am dying too know.
I trust you agree everyone hold’s their own unique point of view on the world and i am satisfied my point of view is right on target, and of course, i respect the fact that in your point of view i am on the wrong target. Your not the first to put that too me and wont be the last.
On us all at some point been idiot’s, this is true i think too. But, at some point we are no longer an idiot and i am glad to report to the common space that i am satisfied in my point of view that i am no longer an idiot. It’s taken an awful amount of hard slog and humbling to crossover into this but it was worth it in the end, primarily because my past idiocy reduced me to bad fortune.
On einstein been dumb due to his failure to crack the point of QM, allow me these few word’s on this assertion..
…. Einstein in my point of view understood the point of QM it was the MAths that escaped his grasp.
One cannot put God into Maths’, but the nerd’s of the class keep trying, too much sublimated sexual energy freud deemed it.
I reckon
David,
having watched your part III tonight on “Addicted to Money”, I feel I have to say that the IFA as an organisation is letting its members down badly.
I’ve hinted at this before here. Their current ‘enemy’ as I see it (and many of them do too) is the big multiples. Now these big multiples, especially in Ireland I mean the Tesco monster, they have strategic departments (some scaling back done there recently I believe). They CREATE the markets (or at least the market conditions) that they wish to partake in.
My question is this? With such good funding, why is the IFA (like most consensus players) not focussing on where the profits and demand lie in 10 years’ time. Why are they not preparing for the possibility that currently badly sweated Irish agri assets could be worth a fortune on the world stage as India and China take on our avarice for meat and dairy products; which as you correctly point out in series III, is already the growing trend.
Let’s just scenario plan for a second (more than our govt have spent on it): – What if the EU was to break up due to some of the financial and other shocks that will increasingly happen in a post 2008 world? What if we could no longer hide behind the skirts of mother Europe and had to ‘compete’ on the world food stage? Mary Harney and her ilk have blighted our world view here; with quasi-commercial understanding masquarading as deft economic insight. The reality is that Irish produce, if it is actually superior, will command superior prices on world markets, just as BMWs do. we should not fear open trade; if we have superior products.
But without grant aid and the bureacratic camphor of Europe, what will our farming class do?
It is clear that we are still trying to re-build the past instead of trying to leapfrog to the future. It is obvious that Hitler leapfrogged Russia pre-WWII in terms of mechanisation and hence war readiness. Why can’t we look ahead, using war gaming and scenario planning, to 2020 and 2050, and see what we need to do NOW. Then we can build all the houses we want, from te fruits of our efforts.
If oil goes through the roof, then fertilizer becomes more expensive, and either food costs go up or we stop using as much fertilizer. Bottom line, our water quality improves. And though we don’t know it yet, it is a MASSIVE asset. As an exportable bulk product, as a tourist draw, as an energy source using the most modern microhydro technology that hardly damage a water flow whatsoever.
So where are our think-tanks? Where are our private bodies (like IFA) who are really stretching their minds like the Chinese with the long game in mind?
We are building our agri houses on sand by nurturing energy-intensive practices without thinking.
Here’s the reality. Planet Earth is finite. And whoever comes up with a way of being sustainable, in whatever walk of business, will be the most profitable longterm also. Because sooner or later, as David paints, wars will be fought over resources. Civil rights cases will be brought. Boycotts will affect companies. People will be galvanised. Food and water are our basic needs. And THEIRS. So why not be smart and project forward, scenario plan, then take all of the steps back along, to see what we need to do.
India and China will have the spending power. Maybe w will have something to sell them. If we get our thinking caps on.
“We are building our agri houses on sand by nurturing energy-intensive practices without thinking.” I meant to include one pertinent recent example here: – As a political sop to farmers, the Irish government initiated and then expanded (as sops tend to do) a slatted shed grant scheme which I believe has cost more millions than I fear to type (incidentally, the government has now reneged on the payment plan). Oh dear.
But that sort of short-sighted waste of funds actually adds to the clear-up we must do before we can have clean water and deservedly high priced worldwide export of Irish foodstuffs. And that is what not just this government, but this generation of short-game TDs have brought upon us. A monumental waste of wealth. Not content with having lost 2 hands of cards at the table, we throw everything into the pot and then use our children’s right to happiness (a fair crack at least) to the 4 winds. All to save a few.
Now Rurai, I only saw the first bit of the program…. looks like David has figured out the laws of physics will beat the laws of economics… but sounded interesting to get his take on it…as ever the trader looking for the angle.
your last sentence on India/China… join the dots…. from the first program…. world divided into creditors and debtors…. US/UK/Ireland vs China/Germany/Middle East….looks like a recipe for world war…. its not like everybody owes 1 small country a few bob and we can tell them to get lost.
Thats why I’m so against NAMA…. the state assuming the debts of developers is very dangerous to the long term future of the citizens of the state…
that bit should read …
looks like a recipe for world war or most of the debts get repaid…its not like everybody owes 1 small country a few bob and we can tell them to get lost…. its 2 reasonably matched ‘sides’
Exactly. That same bravery could instead be focussed on building a warchest to fund future agri & industrial structural changes. Or as David pointed out before, to invest in plain old infrastructure. Instead, we (the guys who need every pound (ahem…euro, I’m a NO man as can be seen….) to work for us, we are the ones who are inesting into the crap that is our current retail banks as they are currenty structured.
[...] David McWilliams suggests that farming should be part of the ’smart economy’. He notes that farming skills, once lost, are hard to revive. In this vein, I think it would benefit us all to learn some measure of food production skill. But I believe organic growing is the way to go because it is more in tune with our ecosystem and works against the growing ecological crisis. [...]