IT is hard not to feel like you are watching a Bond movie or a hostage drama when looking at how NAMA is playing out. Hostage dramas are compelling, which is why they make such good television.
The big questions are fascinating. How stable are the kidnappers? Will they get away with it? What price will the good guys put on the hostage? If they pay the kidnappers now, will they just do it again? Can’t the good guys just storm the kidnappers or maybe call their bluff?
The NAMA saga is easier to understand if it is watched through the lens of a hostage drama. The bankers, the creditors, the Government, and the old establishment who got us into this mess, are the kidnappers. They ruined the banks, but now they realise that the banks are their last chance. So they have taken hostage the shell that is the Irish banking system. They have a gun to the banks’ head and are claiming that if we don’t bail them out, the hostage will be killed. So they demand the cash or else they threaten to bring down the whole economy.
It’s a bit like watching the North Koreans with their bankrupt country and their pathetic ideology threatening all and sundry with ramshackle nuclear weapons, which might just devastate their neighbours. The reason anyone takes these creeps seriously is that they have a hostage called South Korea. So we have the bizarre spectacle of the USA indulging a country that starves its own people. As long as North Korea has South Korea and has a gun to its head, the world has to pay some attention. And the more bankrupt North Korea becomes, the more likely it is to do something mad.
The reason we take the banks seriously is that they have convinced us that without them the economy can’t recover. So the Government is both the kidnapper and the negotiator on our behalf. This is because the Government has already bought a stake in the banks and letting them go would mean that that stake is now worthless. So to keep its stake alive, it hangs on to the charade that it can neither let the banks go nor nationalise them.
So we are left with the hostage situation. We are the people who will pay the banks.
Like all hostage situations, there are two questions. First: if we settle and pay up, how do we know that the kidnapper was ever prepared to kill the hostage? And second: if we pay now, how do we know that the kidnapper won’t strike again? After all, the kidnapper has just been rewarded for bad behaviour.
In the NAMA case, the equivalent of this conundrum is that we must assess whether or not letting the banks go — and in the process saving us from handing over to them what could be up to €40bn — is a risk. If you believe that letting the banks go in an orderly fashion would not kill the economy, then there is absolutely no reason to pay a cent to NAMA.
International evidence here is interesting. There is no evidence from the world of finance and banking which says that a winding up of the banking system in a country and replacing it with a new banking system has any lasting effect on the economic performance of the country. In the US this year alone 300 banks and finance houses have gone to the wall and, according to the latest data, the US economy is tentatively recovering. Sweden wound up its worst banks without adverse effect. In France, banks are rarely called banks due to the frequency of bank collapses in the past and France is not a basket case — it recovered and constructed new banks.
Banks are like any other business: new ones replace old ones, and if we install a national deposit guarantee rather than a blanket guarantee, which can be allowed to lapse, we can prevent chaos.
The second question is: if we pay now and reward the kidnappers for bad behaviour, will they not just conclude that there is a blank cheque which will be signed to bail out every problem, thus encouraging them to repeat this bad behaviour again? So, instead of changing behaviour and saving the system, we risk encouraging bad behaviour.
There is also the problem of image. If we are seen as the sort of place that pays kidnappers, what is to stop them kidnapping again for an even bigger ransom? What is to stop bankers rolling up their other bad debts and dropping them into a NAMA mkII?
It is easy to imagine a constitutional challenge to NAMA by an average citizen who is about to be evicted.
This citizen might argue why his debts are being foreclosed on when the much greater debts of huge developers are being given a 10-year timeframe to be sorted out? Such a constitutional challenge could see the entire structure collapsing. On balance it would seem more logical to negotiate with the kidnappers rather than succumb to all their demands. This would mean suggesting that we might not extend the guarantee. This would send equity in the banks plummeting and would upset and unnerve the kidnappers. We might also suggest that we don’t think the hostage is worth the price. Sure, this might cause the share prices to drop back to cents but this is what we should want as it is the people who are going to foot the bill.
The share price is an indication of the confidence of the kidnappers. At the moment it is rising because they think they are going to get top dollar for their hostage and, in the process, they are going to escape jail. It is time now to recalibrate the balance of fear so that the kidnappers have to think twice about their next move.
This could be done by the Green Party pulling out of government, leading to a general election which will allow alternatives to blatant hostage-taking to be put back on Ireland’s agenda.









‘The European Central Bank stood behind this country during its time of greatest need and let nobody forget that when it comes to the Lisbon Referendum on the 2nd of October.’
Brian Lenihan.’National Asset Management Agency Bill 2009 Second Stage Speech’ 16/09/2009
http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=5986
I couldn’t quite believe my ears when I hear this shameless trollops’ solicitation/advertisement this afternoon. Having had emergency smelling salts then an adrenaline shot to the heart, I thought I’d wait till I could check the transcript before I ‘released the bats’, issued the fatwa, invoked the hex, etc. Buy there it is in print. Official record. So here it is. Listen up, Lenihan, cuz you’ve begged for it. Beeatch!
There are many possible contenders for Ireland’s ‘greatest hour of need’. As an Hiberno-Brit or whatever we mutants are called nowadays, it occurs to me that the prevention of Hitler swarming across the islands of Britain and Ireland would rank firmly at #1. At least that’s what my father said as he fled Dev’s devastated Laois for bombed-out Brum in the 50′s.
This is doubtless impossible for Lenihan to digest in his ridiculous stunted in-bred FF mindscape, but most sane Irish people would concur: No matter the historical enmities amongst the various tribes of these Isles. No, Kevin Myers, you can’t have the mic! This is my rant / diatribe / historical address,etc….
For Lenihan to stand up today and brazenly present dropping his pants to be shafted (no-lube) by ECB thugs like Axel Weber and J.C Trichet as an act of ‘heroism’ is risible in the xxx-treme.
He escaped a giant dildo called ‘Depfa’ being thrust up his ass/arse by Peer Steinbrueck through luck. Not judgement. Due diligence? Neary? Fitz-P? Lenihan was steering the ship when the guarantee was signed to offer the populace up as hostages. But the buck stops with Captain Cowen.
Lenihan’s attempt to ‘reframe’ political emasculation as an act of ‘heroism’ is the equivalent of putting a shotgun into his gob and pressing the trigger. I think it’s time for the voters of Ireland to grasp this clueless, abject surrender to a situation he didn’t understand when when he was taken hostage (Sept 08), and still show no signs of ‘mature reflection’ upon today. Stockholm Syndrome in Dublin via Brussels and Berlin.
Lenihan, you are a prison bitch and the best game in town for the real Hedgie ‘movers and shakers’ is to watch you as you blithely sell not just your arse/ass: But those belonging to all of this, and the next, generation of Irish citizens threatened by debt peonage because of you.
If Lenihan thinks these words are extreme, he needs to get one of his hirelings to dig out those analysts reports on Peak Oil and Peak Credit that he didn’t read. With NAMA and ‘long-term economic value’, he’s not reading the tea leaves, he’s not gazing into Mystic Meg’s crystal ball: He’s away with the faeries, but not in a meaningful way, like being on a Pride float in Limerick.
The party ended in 1999. There’s no arrangement of deck-chairs that can start the music up again, no matter how many sports columns Bertie composes. Lenihan/Cowen: You can both spend the rest of your [limited] days in office in some stupefied trance waiting for ‘the world economy’ to refloat on the back of the Great Reflation Experiment of UK/USA Keynsianists. Or you can actually grow some balls and start looking at rebuilding an Ireland fit for the future: 2012-2021. Someone earlier mentioned Kunstler.
FF trade under a banner called ‘Ireland’ but really selling the blood,sweat, tears, heart and soul of the ‘nation’ to the highest (and/or lowest) bidder. Would FG be much different?
If I have time, I’ll ‘auto-tune’ today’s ‘National Asset Management Agency Bill 2009 Second Stage Speech’, but if not the following classic episode will do just as well for the ol’ hostage/pirate metaphor.
Either enjoy from the start, if you can stand the sight of Newt Gingritch and Sean Hannity- or just jump to the money quote…..
“these pirates are criminals. they are armed gangs on the sea
Ireland does not make concessions or ransom payments to pirates”
Brian ‘Hilary Rodham’ Lenihan @ 1:55 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBb4cjjj1gI
‘The Specter of Debt Revolt Is Haunting Europe
Why Iceland and Latvia Won’t (and Can’t) Pay for the Kleptocrats’ Ripoffs’ By MICHAEL HUDSON
Ireland’s history is the history of piracy. The pirates have taken Dublin hostage. Once again.
Kindly yours
Mad Paddy From Brum 20:12 20/12 2012…..2021
[lyrical/satirical/surrealist/art-terrorist/gratuitious-provocatist etc]
Andrew , since your there let me have your address as my Irish school mate lives there to, He will bring you biscuts from the factory he still works in over there.
We have no Knowledge Economy infastructure in place . or plans drawn that I could find and we are presently placing students ( workers of 2020 ) struggle to be educated .
Farm Leigh , ..I feel like hiring a few Dublin guns to raid the joint this Saturday , and do the country a favour and get a bullet placed in the Fat Drunk Offaly wasters brain , ( and one for Brian too )
BrendanW,
a futile thought process.There are thousands more out there just queuing up to replace him/them.
They must be thanking their lucky stars that they were still in power to finally “nuke the nation” and protect their developer patrons.
AndrewGMooney,
“Very thin Ice”.
How very appropriate!
Hello Tim.
I finished my ‘diatribe’ with the words ‘gratuitous-provocatist,etc’.
I ranked the WW2 Allied resistance to Hitler as #1 contender for Ireland ‘during it’s time of greatest need’; hoping to spark off a good old fisticuffs about de Valera, the founding of FF, Neutrality, Lisbon 2, the future of the Irish State. And all sorts of other high-octane stuff.
Didn’t happen. Oh well. Worth a try!
Ireland’s ‘time of greatest need’ was, of course, its’ abandonments during the Famine years.
I object to Brian Lenihan fatuously dramatising a dig-out for FF’s clients-developers (now renamed ‘borrowers’) as Ireland’s ‘time of greatest need’. But the Party Is Not The State. Not officially…..
As NAMA now seems unstoppable, I sincerely hope it works. But I think Lenihan was politically foolish to provide such an explicit linkage between NAMA/ECB and Lisbon 2. You know what these conspiracy theorists are like….
Joan Burton was excellent in probing whether repossessed families would be able to claim the inherent ‘long-term economic value’ against their arrears on sale, just like the Developers and Banks can do with NAMA.
David,
I sense a certain amount of despair on this latest offering. To say that this fiasco has gotten me a bit exercised is to put it very mildly.
I am listening to the coverage on Newstalk.ie, specifically George Hook’s show and I am amazed at the apologies that are being made for NAMA, how if only this was done or that was done NAMA would work better etc. Even now that the likely costs are known, and even after the experience of other banking bail-outs, there are still those who would argue that its the best thing to do. I’m too scared to find out whats going on over on RTE.
This economic nuclear bomb is certainly inviting some rather unpleasant developments in Irish society. Gobshites lead by gombeen men in to a generation of debt slavery and with nothing to show for it.
Just thinking out loud here ……we have 9 billion of rolled-up interest……we have fingers old outfit transfering 8 billion of their total loan book of 10.2 billion so their wiped out,end of ,well you could recap but why would you be arsed?……….Anglo 28 billion………Anglo +nationwide = 36 billion of the 77 billion total ????…………Anglo already guaranteed from sept 08 and nationalised in jan 09……Where’s the damn figures for the breakdown for each Banks impaired/performing loans and each Banks share of the 9 billion in rolled-up interest.The real haircuts for each Bank is being held back from scrutiny.The New York Markets think AIB and BOI are net beneficiary’s of the haircuts at the expense of the others which include our very own ANGLO.It must mean Anglo and Nationwide are going to be wound down and thats where the main losses will be crystalised,leaving enough Capital to bail all the Bondholders and depositors.Sure AIB and BOI were some of Anglo’s depositors ????? Jasus it was hardly that simple for the great and the good,,Gamble with Anglo and Nationwide and deposit your winnings with AIB and BOI….. ahhhh I need more information, will revert to forum when Lenno spills more beans, He’s taking His time with this drip feed , drip drip drip.
If you want to bring NAMA down, bring the banks down. Withdraw all your cash from AIB / BOI / ESB / Anglo Irish and put it somewhere else – a foreign bank – Citi, HSBC, the post office. Take it out of the Irish banks.
Ireland Inc RIP
Get on your emigration shoes.
Yeah, great idea Fergal73,
Is that National Irish Bank still going? I haven’t seen them mentioned at all. Are they ‘untainted’? Shoes on and used a long time ago.
Take out all your cash boys! (and girls!)
Adam.
I emigrated already, and I’d advise anyone who’s not tied down to the country to get out too.
I was in Ireland last Christmas and I withdrew 50% of my life savings from AIB. They asked me why I was doing it, having been a customer for over 20 years, I said, I don’t believe that the bank has adequate capital, and Ireland simply can’t cover the value of deposits. The guarantee is a smokescreen.
They hummed and hawed and said my money was safe, but I took it out. It’s now in HSBC and Citi. Next time I’m back, I’m taking the rest out.
Folks, $$ is what this is about. Bring the banks down. Take out your money. NAMA will die before it has a chance to be born if everyone does it. I don;t know what the country would like if there was a run on teh major banks, but given that they’re screwing you anyway, it might be a spanner in the works.
NIB are owned by Danske bank, a Danish bank.
It just gets worse. Lenihan said on Newstalk this morning that the banks are getting the funds “at Eurobor 1.5% plus 0.5% so they have every incentive to lend them on” Hang on a sec. Brian. You (ie: we) are borrowing those funds at about 6% at the moment, so we are subsidizing the banks by 4% for the next 10 years. Sweetheart deal or what? Certainly the market thinks so. AIB up 25% this morning.
Folks, i would not read market fluctuations for anything more than as more proof of an oligarchy system in charge.
The markets are now completely rigged by algorithmic trading headed by Goldman sachs.
Brian Lenehan on RTE morning news and now hear this now hear this, the gombeen elite spokesman for the great NAMA switheroo is now using the term ‘PAPER’ for the term money / cash.
The crony masters are now taking the postion of ‘ah sure whats all the fuss sure it’s only paper at the end of the day anyway’.
contempt for the lower downners.
Now, i say, the point of NAMA is this,…
IT IS SUBTERFUGE.
The faked credit bubble crunch is a mocked up excuse to get excess paper money printed of the printing press and this real cash will be hoovered up by the elites at the top of the money tree.
it’s here we have a bank robbery underway by the shadow elites. That i assert is what NAMA is all about in the final analysis.
NAMA is………………….. AN INSIDE JOB……………….A BANKROBBERY
The elites have everyone chattering away about this cost and that value and while distracted the elites are ROBBING THE PRINTING PRESSES.
Folks, BL said:
“The estimated market value is €47 billion. Deputies should consult the accompanying documentation to see how this figure was calculated.”
Anybody have this “accompanying documentation”? We need to see it; if the devil is in the detail, I bet he’s hiding in the accompanying documentation, rather than in the Bill, itself.
Was reading Brendan Keenan’s column in the Indo this morning. He has a few salient points worth considering which give a little balance to what is going on.
The points made int the above comments are indeed very correct.
Once the banks get their hands on the Nama “paper”, they’ll turn it into cash a millisecond later.
The 54 Billion value is not a complete washout. While a net 5% interest payment by the taxpayer has a negative premium of 55% on this, we need to realise that the portfolio (now only 47bn or much lower) is not a complete washout. The question is whether the portfolio (20% of which is outside ireland) will the 47bn value climb to 52bn -(10% rise) plus yields – faster than 55bn climbs to 90bn. It’ll be somewhere in between – maybe it may go net positive…no one knows.
But I think the real question (Keenan expresses it very well) is credit flow. As far as I am concerned, Lenihan must think we are all fools to believe the banks will lend money because of this “incentive”. They will do as most responsible banker managers do…make more money and if the risks of lending to business is greater than burying it in a marina in the costa del bonko, they have a fiduciary responsibility to choose the marina. Credit is be dependant on realistic business plans that are offered in the new economic environment.- not on Lenihan offering them loads of lolly. And I am sorry, but judging from the way businesses managed to exist in the last few years, we are going to more demolition in that regard – banks or no banks…credit or no credit.
I think the primary problem facing this country and indeed many others is how we cope with the new realities. Hand wringing and whinging about bonuses and elites serves no purpose in a apathetic population. The real issue is whether Irish companies have the imagination and the creativity to survive in this new climate and whether the public service load can be lightened or re-engineered to make this happen. Looking at Gurdiev’s Trueeconomics, he makes the rather critical comment that while adaptability is good we are lacking in the creativity deptas far as business goes.
Sorry for the thumbs and errors….
negative premium of 55% is 5% for 10 years….
The question is whether the portfolio (20% of which is outside ireland) of 47bn value will climb to 52bn -(10% rise) plus yields – faster than 55bn climbs to 90bn….
Looking at Gurdiev’s Trueeconomics, he makes the rather critical comment that while adaptability of Irish business is good it is lacking in the creativity dept .
It is real hail mary stuff isnt it. How will any of this climb (take a look at Japan). People (including FF/Greens) are just hoping they will wake up in the morning and everything will be ok, or someone else will have sorted it all out.
Philip, with respect, the real issue on NAMA is the TRUTH. We are not getting the truth. The gov and meeja are floundering in delivering the truth to the public.
David is close too the truth and getting closer and closer.
On what you think is key, lrish companies and imagination, i ask this, surely if there are vested interests using the money system too steal money and it’s too the cost of all else, surely entering into a rigged market is stupid.
Its an important point Philip, I agree, and I’d add an antiquated approach to management to the lack of creativity. But wills is right, any Irish innovation based start-up looking to fill a niche or be a game changer is doomed (either to outright rejection or simply getting fleeced) if they factor in help from any Irish financial institution.
Liam and wills, correct and right (they ARE different!)
The Irish pound is worth 115% the value of sterling.How can the economy recover while we have a currency that is overvalued by 20% vis a vis sterling?.In Louth, 1 in 6 of the total population are registered unemployed.Thanks to the euro.
Sure where is Louth ?…it’s not near Donnybrook , so Our Leaders are not worried about the sixth man down there ,….Next year it will be closer to 1 in 4 , and Will we still be sitting back ….The Church, The English and Drink has a lot to answer for the spineless society we have developed into !
1 in 4 won’t be noticed either, not even in Donnybrook. In fact it would take at least a 40% unemployment figure to really hit home, because most lower income households are ghettoized well away from the priveliged leafy suburbs of the powers that be.
What they can’t help noticing, though, is that there are no jobs for their little darlings to go to anymore.
Unfortunately for us mortals and fortunately for the powers that be, it is in the nature of man that as long as he is alive there is always something that can be taken away from him.
You only have power over people so long as you don’t take everything away from them. But when you’ve robbed a man of everything he’s no longer in your power, he’s free again.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn.
Are these bastards going to get everything before we’re free of them???
these b@stards are psychotic personalities and are obsessed with master / slave relationships. It yields up unto their alter endless sexual thrill, riches and focus of attention in the room.
Great analysis as always David, and ps really enjoyed the debates @ Electric Picnic. In fact it took some dragging my sister away (I apologise for some of my heckling).
Anyway what worries me most is Lenihan’s assertion that the property market in Ireland is currently at rock bottom – what evidence is there to prove this? Job losses are continuing and Ireland is still losing competitiveness.
In fact NAMA contributes to this as the people who are going to pay off the loans NAMA has bought are not the developers themselves, but the business and commercial tenants that rent the premises that are still owned by the development industry. And we all know that these are charging the most overpriced commercial rents in the world, thus making it difficult to do business without charging very high prices. In a market where unemployment is sky-rocketing, this is unfeasible and businesses will fail. The cost will thus be passed onto the businesses that are left and the consumers who are still working, thus causing yet more failures. NAMA just locks in this overpricedness cycle.
And without a specific obligation on the banks to use funds gained from NAMA to increase lending, why should the bankers repeat the mistakes of the past, and lend to businesses whose costs are in fact increasing and consumers whose taxes are soaring and jobs are in real danger of being lost?
Its a vicious circle that will take decades to resolve. I don’t think we are anywhere near the bottom yet and agree with the assertion that we’ve created a Japanese style zombie.
folks, the banks are not going to lend the cash they are underway in robbbing off the euro printing presses.
There is no lack of credit. It is a con.
The banks pumped the credit bubble up and then turned the credit tap off.
It’s the oldest trick in the central banking book.
The Banks are robbing the euro printing presses through the gov bond issuance facility.
This freshly minted ready made cash will be hoovered up out of sight.
THe credit tap will be turned back on and all will be lead to believe the credit flow problem was fixed.
Again, NAMA is an Inside job bank robbery.
who are the shortsellers,..? the shadow banking system, the banks way of poppin the biggest asset bubble of all time.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/15/short_sellers_the_unsung_heroes_of_the_financial_c/?ref=fpd
more chicanery …. down at goldman sachs and another inside job..
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney09152009.html
For the next day can we just concentrate on an item that is buried amongst all the figures, letters, comments, analysis etc.
€28,000,000,000 for Anglo Irish Banks debts. We own this Bank.
The discount would appear to have been 35-40% say 35%.
That means loans of €43,000,000,000
That means write off of €15 billion to the taxpayer directly. Am i right ?
And they will chase developers for the 43 billion. Not a chance.
this i believe is an inside bank robbery.
see any similarities wills?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhaEc_4zuFI
gem link thermus B, thks.
Yes, if we assume that we (NAMA) are only paying 28b to us (AnIB) for a 43b tranche of loans, then yes, we (AnIB) will have to write-down 15b. However, we are getting 28b in cash up-front (via converted gov bonds).
The Gov (us) is charging us (AnIB) 1.5%+ .5% (?) for the money, but it is likely to cost us (NTMA) more than that on the markets.
So, Yes, AnIB is losing 15billion write-off which is costing us taxpayers (as 100% owners) 15b. But note that AnIB proably have more write-offs than that to do.
Totting up how much the taxpayer will lose directly and indirectly on AnIB + NAMA + recaps + bank guarantee, etc is not a simple exercise, but it would seem clear that we are going to lose out ….. all in the name of keeping ‘our’ banks solvent.
As David says, you couldnt make this up !!!
MK1
MK1
I’m sure I’m going to regret this.
Dont you mean in your second para: “The Govt. (us) is paying us (AnIB) for the loans with bonds paying 1.5% (to the bank)…”? (I thinks it’s a typo as you imply this in your first para anyway.) But I think it’s important to make the distinction between us charging us and us being charged by us.
Sticking my neck out further, is it the case that the ECB accept these bonds as collateral (since the loans themselves would not be acceptable under their rules) and lend money to the bank at 2% (????) (and it’s the ECB who will do this because the markets won’t touch these low-interest paying Nama bonds)? But that this (ECB’s) is just an initial low rate that will certainly rise in the future (if I understood B. Lucey this morning on the radio), and that the bonds may well have short terms to mature so then the Govt (us) will have to redeem them before long with funds borrowed dearly on the markets, both the principal and the interest to the bank (us), so it’s not really free money after all?
And so to return to David’s point in his last article before this, wouldn’t it be far better if the ECB did the decent thing and gave us liquidity directly (with the appropriate regulatory figleaf in place) to put into a new banking system rather than this loan-shark arrangement where nobody understands the small print but the bankers who dreamt it up?
As I said, I’ll probably regret this…
coldblow, yes on first question. ECB pay out freshly minted euros too banks on bond’ s as collateral. Plus, it’s the irish gov who are liable for the bonds right throught that fandangled transaction.
The gov are really taking the bonds to the ecb getting cash and handing every 54 billion dime in cash to private banks to pay for the debts on the banks books and so thereby assuming these debts themselves in the wizard of oz wish that the debts will be repaid by the debtors or, they’ll be able to sell the assets tied to the debts and settle the debts. Unfortunately the gov forgot that the assets tied to the debts will never return to the price they were paid for and in fact the assets will decrease in price as is the trend with all asset price when a bubble bursts.
I replied, didnt seem to make it. Test.
Hi Coldblow,
Ne rien regret!
David+Webmaster: The new website format presents me with a very small comment box in displayed width but I’ll persist nonetheless! Are you trying to limit discussion??
coldblow: I’m sure I’m going to regret this. Dont you mean in your second para: “The Govt. (us) is paying us (AnIB) for the loans with bonds paying 1.5% (to the bank)…”? (I thinks it’s a typo as you imply this in your first para anyway.) But I think it’s important to make the distinction between us charging us and us being charged by us.
Well, the Government as of this week is paying 4% and 4.5% for 5yr and 10yr money. The figure of 1.5% (euribor?) + 0.5% is being bandied about (to give 2%) but where that fits in exactly is not clear. There is nothing defined in the NAMA bill.
Its interesting (pardon the pun) to compare which part of the train of money are paying interest and by how much.
I thought I had understood that NAMA could buy a selling banks “toxic” assets with government bonds (57 billion of them!) similar to the above (4%, 4.5%) but also have the power to charge on that money.
As you say, perhaps its the ECB which will make a charge in the ‘conversion’ of the Government bonds to cash, by an amount in and around euribor+.5%, although why it cant be euribor I dont know.
All in all, what we do know is that the interest we will pay on the 56 billion is likely to be a lot more than the banks will pay for their interest charges and the facility.
NAMA is a bailout by any sane persons analysis, and whilst the exact levels and numbers and interest rates payable, etc, will only be finalised in its operation, the general picture is quite clear.
Ireland Teo (I think we should drop the Inc.) will be doubling its debt and will be the biggest property developer in the market.
AIB,BOI,IN are problematic enough, but AnIB is a black hole and why we are saving it will be looked back in history as a crime!
MK1
MK1 Thanks for the reply/
As you have been saying all along, Lance the Boil. If the banks were let fail how far would you see our responsibilities? Cover depositors? Presumably let the bond holders take a hit. Now what about this ‘senior debt’ thing (I’m not exactly sure what that is by the way) – should they burn too? Dr Fitzgerald was apparently agitated that the very mention of such a thing would destroy us and I have heard other commentators say this would be ‘insane’.
On a wider point our bail out would be seen as part of a global effort to rescue the financial system. My view is that the world is scr*wed by the major players in said system (how’s that for a sweeping statement). Nevertheless even if, as an alternative to TINA, we were to exercise our (presumably legitimate) right to scr*w the share, debt and bond holders (sorry, can’t think of a better word there), on the expiry of the guarantee, this would be viewed as grossly irresponsible and populist by the civilized world and we would be made to pay for it. My instinct is to grasp the nettle but said instinct on various other issues has usually turned out to be wrong. All crudely put, but I see this as being at the heart of the matter and I’d be glad of any views.
another thing.
if only 40% of the public ( 60% paying nothing )were repaying home loans & buy to let properties where would the banks be then.
if we all were to withhold mortgage payments for one month in protest……..
Its a nice idea Hammer, but dreaming….
What can you do? Well, apart from blowing up Leinster House or
assassinating Bertie, the Brians and a rake of developers and bank
executives in a night of the long knives, which I know many would like to see but would never work, certainly make the situation much worse and which I couldn’t possibly advocate, there are actually some practical things you can do.
1: Withdraw all money that you have from any Irish bank account you have, savings, pensions, investments, the lot and set up an account with Lloyds, HBSC, HBOS, I’m sure they would be glad of your business and you’ll get a great deal on GBP right now. Encourage all of your friends to do likewise. I believe Nationwide offer free international withdrawals. Drawback here of course is you might need a UK address, so call up that long lost cousin… you can change the address afterwards to an Irish one.
2. Not my idea but I like it, but it may be a bit late… Use Lisbon 2 as a gun to hold to your local TD’s head. You go to his clinic and you say to him, “if you vote in favour of NAMA, I will vote against Lisbon”. Regardless of your views on Lisbon, the potential economic damage of rejecting Lisbon pales in to insignificance compared to the economic nuclear bomb FF and the Greens are about to drop on the Irish. Better yet, get a 1000 signatures to take with you. None of this internet/facebook fannying about either, go door-to-door and get em.
3. Reduce your tax profile. Don’t have any savings or investments in the state that are traceable by the exchequer, make sure as I said above your working bank account is in a non-Irish bank, work contract instead of PAYE if you can and get a good accountant to cook the books to within an inch of their legal life. In this climate, contract employment is a win for the company too, no new permanent employee on the books.. Maybe if your income is from abroad, see if it can be taxed at source
4. Keep hammering the message to as many people as possible until they are convinced that NAMA=death. Keep driving the message home to as many people as will listen.
5. Anybody else got ideas??
The only way I can think of to really show how angry the country is is to intitiate a run on the banks. Withdraw your money from AIB / BOI / Anglo Irish / EBS.
NAMA cannot work if the banks collapse.
It will be chaos and hurt like hell, but at least it won;t be pain for 30 years.
Or emigrate.
Or do both.
From the indo:
“Mr Lenihan made it clear he expected the banks to use to massive cash boost to do their part to restore the beleaguered economy. “The banks should be extremely grateful for the continued support and forbearance extended by the citizens”.
So, the banks should be grateful and should do their part for the good of the country. Yes Brian, that’s what banks do, look out for the best interests of the people as a whole.
Start a bank run before the banks can get their hands on your and your childrens and their childrens money. Withdraw your cash.
Folks, here is the “accompanying documentation” that Brian Lenihan referred to in the NAMA speech as showing how they arrived at the valuation of €47 billion.
http://www.nama.ie/Publications/2009/Supplementary_Documentation.pdf
Irish Prime Yields 2003-2009 are being included; scary, scary stuff!
tim, a1 link. Had a look and threw my computer at the wall.
wills, Wow! What make of computer is that you have there, wills? It’s obviously still working, post-impact; I need one like that!
One effect of NAMA here for AIB:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AIB&t=5d
And a breakdown of the loan figures here:
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/09/17/do-the-nama-figures-add-up-a-broader-and-more-realistic-assessment-of-long-term-economic-value/
Folks, Ronan Lyons’ “Top Five Facts” to know about NAMA:
But first, the facts… here is a suggested top five facts you need to know about NAMA:
1. NAMA plans to take ownership of loans underpinning land and developments originally valued at €88bn. All these 21,500 projects are the work of just under 2,000 customers. (This will represent assets for Irish taxpayers, i.e. we hold a piece of paper that says we need these 2,000 companies and individuals to pay back the loans to us.)
2. For all that land and development, the amount loaned was €68bn, meaning that the typical loan-to-value for NAMA projects was 77%. (Just to give some idea of what these numbers mean, the value of all 320,000 homes in Munster is somewhere in the region of €90bn.)
3. About €9bn in unpaid interest has been accumulated on those loans, which will also be transferred over to NAMA, giving a total amount of debt that NAMA will take on (as assets) of €77bn. (To the best of my knowledge, this is less a reflection of changed circumstances post-boom and more of a reflection of “standard practice” during the boom years: “Don’t worry about whether we can pay you back, prices are going up, so just roll up the interest and when we’ve it sold, we’ll pay you back the whole shebang.”)
4. Interim-NAMA estimates that property prices have fallen by 47% on average (across land, retail, residential, office, industrial, etc) from when the loans were issued, leaving the current market value of the collateral on the €68bn at just €47bn. (It gives absolutely nothing to back this up, which is most unfortunate, but does refer to using data from the CSO, the ESRI and the Department of the Environment, as best as possible.)
5. In theory, the supplementary information for NAMA ends here. However, it goes on to ’suppose’ that NAMA would pay €54bn to the banks to acquire the loans. This would represent a haircut of 30% on the loans or – in plainer English – NAMA is assuming the fall in property prices from peak to some sustainable plateau is about 40%, on average.
Tim, regarding top five facts,
1) these companies are not going to pay back the loans. They are utterly relieved this morning with NAMA paying off their debts for the banks.
Once the debts on the banks books are paid for by NAMA with bonds / ecb printed euro’s that’s it. It’s over. These companies will foreclose and liquidate and the debts now with NAMA will receive a paltry repayment.
Plus, whatever hope we had of these companies which are in cahoots with the banks POnzi credit bubble, they ain’t all innocent, these guy’s will be far less motivated to pay debts now knowing the debts are moved in a giant switcheroo too a gov agency.
2) betch ya alot of those land / devolpment loans is mostly M3.
3) isn’t it quite amazzing that these companies have notched up 9 billion in arrears relating to interest too banks. This is very very suspect indeed. What this show’s is the banks put zero pressure on any of these guys on debt re payments. Thus this indicates a hidden understanding between the banks and debtors.
4) A leaving cert student can figure out the floor price to proprety. It’s two thirds the max bubble price falling back in line with over all mean average’s in accordance with last 100 years stat’s.
5) isn’t it sooooo predictable that NAMA estimated property price instead of opening up robert schiller’s book irrational exuberance and it’s all there on the fu2kin page already done for these flakes.
These guy’s are soo laizy. i mean this NAMA inside job bank robbery is not even been covered up in it’s execution.
They’re contempt for the general public know’s no bound’s.
Apparently, the interest roll up at 9 billion got mixed up in haircut and the hair cut on assets is lower than the % given by BL in the DAIL.
As reported on Newstalk lunchtime.
I took this from today’s Market Oracle site, just replace the word American with the word Irish.
So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell,
Blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell? – Pink Floyd – Wish You Were Here
Can you tell heaven from hell? Pink Floyd’s lyrics reflect the alienation that engulfs our nation today. Americans have become alienated from their government. The 535 elected officials in Washington DC no longer represent the people. They represent the entrenched special interests. Do you think you can tell the truth from a lie? Both Democrats & Republicans manipulate public opinion and rely on the extremists and fanatical elements of their parties to spout their lying rhetoric. When their lies are revealed, they just deny the facts or change the story. I wish George Orwell were alive to see how his condemnation of the Soviet Union manipulation of language and oppression tactics have been perfected by American politicians.
“The point is that we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield.” – George Orwell
National “Asset?” Management Agency.
The banks are telling us that their liabilities are our assets. If we all follwed this logic our debt would become income, try to deposit debt into your bank account, only works for the big banksters. Private central banks have created powerful and obedeint central govenments to force this form of ‘banketeering’ upon the populace.
Folks, on the Diaspora idea and just what potential value it might bring to these shores:
“The Ireland Funds since 1976 has raised over $300 million ($210 million in the past 15 years) and funded over 1,200 organisations in Ireland and beyond.”
http://www.irlfunds.org/news/ffund/diaspora.asp
Only a spit in the ocean, now, with NAMA.
Now, I realise, of course, that this is only the pure hard-cold-cash over 34 years and that there probably is an economic synergy value to business deals with the diaspora.
Does anyone have any figures/way of measuring this benefit to business here?
check this link out for inside job bank robbery going on in BARCLAYS.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6199483/Barclays-accused-of-trickery-in-12.3bn-toxic-asset-sale.html
I’m not sure I can see whats wrong with this. They have effectively created a financial skip for their bad debts that allows the bank to move forward without having to worry about its bad debts, and is looking at a 10 year time-frame for disposing of the stinky assets. Its good for shareholders in Barclays, and it doesn’t use taxpayers money, so no problem?
The Irish Government could have done exactly the same thing, set up a bad bank for toxic Irish assets and run it on a commercial basis, with private investors and shareholders, and charging the banks a handling fee for the privilege. In fact, this looks remarkably like our host’s proposal of Feb 22nd. Or am I missing something, possibly several somethings?
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6837710.ece
more inside job banking chicanery
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=axX9PCd9qLd0
Folks, from wills’ Barclays’ link above:
John McFall, chairman of the Treasury Select Committee, said: “This is short-circuiting the transparency that is required in the market at the moment. Is it banking by sleight of hand?”
Sound familiar?
Folks, News at Nine (RTE), says AIB is currently worth €2.3 billion…….
Why the hell are we buying €24 billion worth of crap from it, then? Why not just buy all the the sahres, the whole damned thing, for 2.3?
I have been trying for a long time here, folks; but this “economics” thingy is looking worse and worse, the more I learn about it.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly – it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”
Joeseph Goebbels
It seems to me that when the full implications of NAMA begin to be felt by the populace, in high taxes etc this government will have left office.
They will have done their duty however-to the end.
That primary duty is to cushion the developers and maintain them on life support until a way emerges to permit them to resume where they left off.
We must all desire that this policy achieves fruition, and jobs and prosperity come back to Ireland again, at some point in the future, so that citizens can afford to buy houses at Mr Lenehan´s “hope” valuation prices.
Folks, we are betting more money on NAMA than all of the money we have received from membership of the EU fo 40 years!
See here, from Michael Hennigan:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1012675.shtml
“Ireland’s 40-year bonanza of foreign aid from the European Union will amount to €41 billion by the time we become a net contributor in 2013
By Finfacts Team
Feb 22, 2008 – 7:18:03 AM”
Notice, crucially, that the €41 billion received over 40 years, is called a “bonanza”?
What is NAMA, so? “Economies of scale” is a phrase that the “free-marketeers-who-are-not-so-free-market-anymore” types like to use.
The spin is becoming more blatent, the lies more nebulous.
Everybody!
Just copped this, watching the “Hotels” issue on PrimeTime:
NAMA handling hotels will be definite “state-support” for the hotels it will manage/work-out/run, etc.
Articles 113-118 of the Lisbon Treaty specifically pre-clude this activity!
There is something going on here and it is, definitely, “subterfuge”, as wills correctly says, but it may not be “just” the subterfuge wills has informed us about:
It looks like a “Yes” to Lisbon2 will outlaw NAMA.
What “game” is this? Brian Cowen said in the Dail, today, “It will take 10 years for this game to break even”; they have all been repeating the mantra, “The only game in town”.
Is this a new game:
Save the banks with the IOU from the taxpayer;
Pretend that NAMA will save the economy (albeit at huge cost to the taxpayer)
Play out the Drama in the DAIL and the meeja, to fool the sheeple;
Pass Lisbon2, outlaw NAMA, the IOU stands (contractually for temporal reasons) and the banks, recapitalised by NAMA and shareholders rescued by NAMA re-start their “free-market” system, having been given the money of the IOU.
Oh, God!
(It might be ok, it might only be that I am losing my marbles)
Yes I copped that aboutthe hotels too. at present the banks are “administering “many bankrupt hotel & golf course complexes on a “going concern” basis, and offering good deals to get any kind of a revenue stream, and await the NAMA takeover.
These are the complexes built as a result of the tax breaks.(as with private hospitals, nursing homes etc)
When the state takes over thes hotel/golf course developments it will be politically impossible (and contrary to fair competition rules) for the government to keep them open in competition to the older established hoteliers who resent the impact on their profits by bankers who are currently reducing prices and impacting on other hoteliers viability in an overcrowded market.
tirnanog33, so, maybe I am NOT “losing my marbles”, eh?
……………tim when one goes down the rabbit hole it’s tricky to keep see whats what.
“More than 80 per cent of the money allocated from the EU budget last year related to agriculture projects.”
These farmers and Larry Goodman types are also the people who have alsö pocketed half the budget for road building(land costs) and the massive profits from land sales for rezoning land in every remote town and village in Ireland.
A no vote from concerned citizens would also tell Europe that we want an end to the farmers gravy train.it is no longer sustainable.
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1012675.shtml
Tim, I’m afraid it’s too far. I’m looking for something closer to Kerry. Hope it goes better this time.
Folks, this link, from Thermus B. Airgetinin, above, is really excellent. I find that the second-half of the video is particularly instructive/resonant for us in Ireland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhaEc_4zuFI
Basically, it boils down to this: If the bankers had Italian names, we would call them a Mafia.
On a related matter: Saturday’s anti-NAMA protest at 1pm……
a) Who, among you, is willing to try and turn-up?
b) Who is willing to meet and march together?
Personally, I am willing to do exactly what I did the last time, but with a wardrobe-change, and stand as close as possible to the entrance of the Garden of Remembrance before the march begins.
I think that wills found me easily identifiable last week, so its not so hard to do……
yep, the tie blew your cover tim,,!!!
Stripey pink tie….. Lol!
What colour next time, you reckon? Same?
In fairness, not many others could have a pinky-tie like that, so might be best?
Sorry to miss the march.Staying in Salzburg until next Friday.!
tirnanog33, pity for us, good for you.
Saving your children and your country takes commitment and energy.
Let’s keep at it!
Folks, email reply, having sent message to An Taoiseach, as posted last night; received today:
Dear Mr. Nelligan,
I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 17 September, 2009 which
will be brought to the Taoiseach’s attention as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
David King
Assistant Private Secretary
to the Taoiseach
Telephone: 01-6194020
E-mail: privateoffice@taoiseach.gov.ie
Perhaps, a phone number and email address that some of you might like to use?
Folks, I usually find Eamonn Gilmore to be a populist, cliche-filled-tub who opposes-for-opposition’s sake.
However, I will quote him here, because in a rare moment of truth and erudition and lucidity, he said this today:
“NAMA is a vehicle that transfers losses to the taxpayer and profits to the banks”.
spot on tim, precisely what i thought.
RE Irish banking and NAMA
Life can be simple
Life can be hard
Having seen similar in Sweden,
I agree completely about simply letting the banks go bankrupt, with depositor guarantee.
Moral justice and financial justice.
After all – as you say – the simple fact is that banking as a start-up commercial enterprise will remain attractive for private investors,
not least when some of the potential competitors are bankrupt.
So the banks go bankrupt overnight,
next day they may have a “New” in front of their names, with the same staff, premises etc as before,
but with different (or even some of the same) owners, willing to back a new start with new debt-free banks.
Also,
the suggestion that bond-holders have to be covered doesn’t hold, from similar previous situations:
A bankrupt bank is a bankrupt bank,
too bad for the bondholders, like everyone else owed money.
Otherwise, as you suggested on radio, they can simply be offered equity in the new/resurrected bank.
if the banks sink the apparatus the crony oligarch uses to preserve its power base goes down with it.
i think it’s worse tirnanog33 than that, i contend that the devolpers and bankers and shadow gov and god knows who else all bought into a credit bubble gravy train in the knowledge that when it burst they would be fine ‘cos they would run to the ECB to BAIL THEM OUT<, they all knew, they just kept on lending and borrowing to a clique in the full knowledge not to worr that when it burst they had a plan ready to go to get them all of the hook.
Re property owned by the banks
(contined)
Notice that with a bankrupcy ,
the property assets are simply sold off
to highest bidders as with any other liquidation sale
(previous property owners could be excluded from cheaply re-purchasing the assets on which they defaulted )
If the state temporarily takes over the banks and their property assets,
the property is at zero cost to the taxpayer.
That is, the state controllers might wish to sell off some/all assets at a later time,
with all the money received benefiting public finances.
There is too much focus on NAMA and “discount percent on property”
The whole point is getting a new dynamic banking system,
that is new debt-free banks willing to lend money to Irish businesses, to grow market share.
of course, but NAMA is not about a fair and sensible solution that benefits all, its all about preserving power.
Lighthouse, that is precisely what “it” is about (NAMA)
“That is, the state controllers might wish to sell off some/all assets at a later time”
But, what we should have, instead (as you, correctly, say) is:
“…a new dynamic banking system,
that is new debt-free banks willing to lend money to Irish businesses, to grow market share”
Now, Lighthouse, we can have exactly what you want – the “Dream-Team” of what you want, if we give a few billion to An Post Bank, instead of gambling €54 billion euro on NAMA, and letting An Post Bank lend the money to businesses that require liquidity. We already own it, it is already a “good/Clean” bank; it already has branches in evry town and village…….
What is the problem with this solution?
It does not bail-out the cronies…….. and that is ALL that is wrong with this solution.
Credit Default Swap rates dropping for Irish Banks. CMA state: “Irish banks tighter as Allied Irish sells £20bn of property loans to government”. AIB CDS rates down from 400 on July 16 to 170 now. Shareholders and investors in the two Irish banks are having a grand old time on our buck, with those corrupt aholes in Government spinning lies 24-7. Is there anything we can do other than post bile on message boards…?
1) Start a run on the Irish banks. If you have any money in them, take it out.
2) Emigrate if you can – and tell your local TD that you’re emigrating because you don;t fancy paying punitive taxes for the next 15 – 30 years.
3) Never vote FF or the Green Party.
4) March against NAMA.
5) If you’re self employed or have any form of non PAYE income, cheat on your tax returns. You might as well have it as the bankers and developers.
I’ve done 1, 2 (currently live in the USA), 50% of 3 and will complete the task next time I’m back in Ireland, can’t do 4 (see 2) and have no comment on 5.
I meant 50% of 1 not 3.
I have never voted for the Party of Corruption aka Fianna Fail, or the Enablers, aka The Green Party.
Fergal,
Excellent advice – may I respond…
1. Don’t have any money in those (w)banks, if I did I would have taken it out a long time ago and gone to a credit union.
2. Yep, emigrated years ago, would rather live in hell than in Ireland.
3. I would never vote full stop, in any country; it’s all a sham. You can’t achieve anything. Either revolt or run for election and do your best if you get elected (unlikely) and don’t try to be a greedy (w)banker like the shower we have in Ireland.
4. I would march to meet like-minded people but there’s not much you can do about the NAMA nonsense, they are going to rob the country blind and line their own and their mate’s pockets. That’s why I’m not there in the first place, they’ve been doing it for decades, nay centuries and bringing poverty and unemployment and misery on the common man. It’s not a lot better elsewhere but it’s a BIT better.
5. Never pay tax, refuse to, scam tax in every job I’ve ever been, in every country I’ve ever lived in. Always stay under the radar, illegal, offshore jobs, any trick in the book. The so-called respectable politicians are robbers, scammers and liars – they have no problem in taking what they want – why should I worry? Any time I worked briefly and legitimately in Ireland (last time in late 2006), I made sure I never went over my years tax free allowance and then quit on time and claimed every single cent back. Did the same in England and Australia. Don’t give them even a single cent and claim unemployment assistance too if you happen to even fart in the country. Sometimes they pay it, sometimes they don’t. At least they spend money trying to find out if you are eligible for it. Last time they refused but pay large African families, Polish workers etc. even though they weren’t born in the country – GOOD LUCK to them. Love diversity, bring more of them in is what I say to replace all the gombeens and scumbags. Rather have a decent African or Romanian working man/woman get the money than a crooked politician or a heroin injecting bowsie.
Ireland is doomed, there’s no hope. Would the last person out please turn off the lights.
Adam.
1. Might as well.
2. Done – living in Asia. Would have liked to head home at some stage, but not so sure now…
3. Agreed!
4. Would if I could.
5. On the fence on that one.
I guess like many posters here, I just feel impotent, watching these crooks pillage the country. Poor saps like my parents have no idea what’s going on…
David.
Not sure if you view these comments or not. However, a few points.
You have a profile but have been practically invisible since the start of the NAMA process, apart from in pay to enter public sessions and I notice a prominent promotion for hiring your public speaking services on the website.
If you, as I do, think that this is a massive transfer of wealth from the ordinary tax payer to the wealthy, then why are you not on TV raging about it. You really did have a profile that people might have listened to, but you seem to have disappeared. This is disappointing. The history of the world is full of major transfers of wealth from the public to private hands during crises (e.g. the East India Company in the UK, dispute if this if I’m wrong), but now is such a time in your own country, it’s time to stand up. People might actually listen. I read your latest article and it seems sensible, but people don’t seem terribly aware of the option of simply winding down the banks. There appears to be 54 Bn available in cash from the ECB to start a proper banking system, but instead the bold children (i.e. the banks) are going to get it. To make matters worse, anyone I know in banking is simply defiant about what has happened (what a laugh as Brian Lenihan says that the banks should feel grateful – see the reaction of BOI today, pure defiance).
So instead of coining catchy phrases etc and selling your book, you could start using that profile of yours to gather support for opposition to NAMA. Alas most people I talk to seem to not realise the sheer magnitude of what we’re doing here, I was appalled that the 77 Bn loan book apparently relates to just 2000 individuals.
Lets be honest, many people I talk with think you’re full of hot air with the analogies etc, but personally, I think many of the analogies make sense. Come out and lock horns with the politicians on this one, and show us what you’re made of – people might listen, and you might just prevent the modern day peasants of Ireland from having to cover the excesses of the wealthy. From time immemorial the kings have levied taxes on the poor to cover their mistakes, and this is no different. If I had a profile myself I’d be using it. So please, get out there and start talking, not just on the website – Brian Lucey doesn’t seem like the brightest guy after predicting that soft landing, but at least he made an effort. We need someone to ask some real questions. For instance, tonight on prime time, Willie O’Dea (always carted out as a scrapper and clearly out of his depth) wasn’t queried on these 40% performing loans – performing now, who says they’ll perform in 6 months time? But nobody asked the question, even though Mark Little is usually quite good – perhaps you might have.
The only way I see NAMA not coming to being is for the Greens to pull out but that doesn’t seem likely as they know they’ll be trashed in an election, and there are some positives that they are looking to implement.
Perhaps mass protest is an option but I’m not sure that’ll work either – barring a storming of the Dail, I can’t see the ordinary TD breaking ranks. Why would they – their generous packages seem likely to remain as we continue to prop up our ridiculous housing bubble with 40 year money.
TIme to get off the lecture circuit and show some leadership. You might just save a generation. How’s that for incentive?
David G. (grenaldi@hotmail.com)
Great article in Phoenix Magazine 11 Sept issue re developer highflyers: Real Estate Opportunities;Treasury Holdings; (REO)- Johnny Rohan & pal Dick Barret. Paid 660million Euros for Batersea Power Station in London wastelands/docklands three years ago. Its good for grazing goats for the foreseeable future.If it were sold today it would likely take a 500 million hit and drive the company (REO) into immediate liquidation!
30 % haircuts my backside!
Seems that a subsidiary of REO CREO (Chinese property investments) returned a pre tax loss of 200 m sterling in the year to June 2009.
but the two boys are still taking out investment/management fees (52 million from CREO last year, (whose shareholders are almost wiped out!) and through Treasury Holdings they are taking another 15 million sterling in similiar “management fees” annualy.!
The Phoenix says that if NAMA is put on life support by NAMA it would probably not interfere with any of these management charges and the two boys would continue to benefit handsomely at the expense of the taxpayer.
I woder who put that piece in the media two weeks ago that all develpers would be “pursued vigorously” and would lose everything and would end up in “social housing”? hilarious.
So they will end up in one of their own houses which -according to a recent article in the media-the government is going to lease long term (presumably from their own NAMA quango), for 20 million Euros for some of the unfortunate families on the enormous waiting list(52,000and counting)
so the government will “lease” -out of the NAMA managed property empire-some of the “cold storage” empty housing estates belonging to “should be bankrupt but are not bankrupt “developers?
When the upturn arrives can wepresume that the government will then give back the developers their deep frozen assets so they can sell them on into a once more profitable marketplace?
Otherwise why not just bankrupt sufficient developers now to provide instant social housing unencumbered by complicated leasing arrangements of the most convoluted kind imaginable?
Can anybody smarter than I explain that one for me?
Ugggghhhhh! I have a problem with “change”; I hate it!
Everything is in flux, even this site’s layout!
Jeez! Will the world, just, please stop spinning wildly in all directions?
Change is what keeps us moving with momentum , the spin is due to your saturation level from national and international media bombardment.
I think David is getting ready for our up coming winter of discontent. There is even without the street riots Ireland is in chaos, the illusion of wealth and prosperity was engineered on the freeing up of credit and when this credit was not returned ‘they’ developed the vehicle of transferring outstanding credit to keep the wheels turning.
We were not the third wealthiest counrty in the world nor had we the top GDP either it was all clever accounting , for almost the last ten years all Ireland has done was build houses and fitted them out with the 2 cars landscaped gardens and all the electrical goods and furniture each house could hold, did we actually manufacture any of these items associated with these developments ?. No we were to clever and sure isn’t it just as cheap to buy all these products out side of rip off Ireland ?.
We have this week Farmleigh and all this talk about our ex pats ,well take a tip from South America http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/08/25/argentina.drug.decriminalization/index.html?iref=hpmostpop
If we done this we could within a year have a tourist trade similar to Holland’s ( their unemployment is still under 6% )
I really believe/hope that the Green’s grass roots members will vote against NAMA in a few weeks time. Was Gormley laying the foundations for such a vote in today’s IT? The grass routes hate the developers/bankers/FF as much as anyone.
If this was Hollywood, surely the script would read that the original move by Bertie, to bring the Greens in to government so they could take the rap for the EU required carbon taxes, would actually be FFs downfall?
Should be ‘Conversations’ up there at the top David/Ronan – not ‘Converations’.
David n webmaster;
The comments from posters on posters comments in a poster’s comment box is disappearing into a blur. Please fix the typeface or god forsaken coloring.
Bloggers, if the following link is to be taken seriously it is bad bad news for performing loan value we all now own.
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUSTRE58G5U320090917
david n webmaster;
The new format is very difficult to search through the comments and also comments within comments.
Try to make a delineation of some type, even with typo difference or indication through an inset of some type.
Has anyone any idea what yields/ continuous income is available from the stuff we bought for 54Bn? I am trying not to wince as I look at Malcolm’s numbers…shurely ta God it’s not as bad as dat!
Maybe David’s next article should focus how the market here is rigged. Stop theorising on government lunacy/ the idiocies of the way we do business etc. We need to acknowledge that we are the way we are becasue of the rigged state of everything. That there is no lunacy whatsoever and that unconciously as a nation we have learned to live with it.
Pull…tis all down to Pull.