September 16, 2009

We're the hostages to fortune in NAMA drama

Posted in Banks · 314 comments ·

IT is hard not to feel like you are watching a Bond movie or a hostage drama when looking at how NAMA is playing out. Hostage dramas are compelling, which is why they make such good television.

The big questions are fascinating. How stable are the kidnappers? Will they get away with it? What price will the good guys put on the hostage? If they pay the kidnappers now, will they just do it again? Can’t the good guys just storm the kidnappers or maybe call their bluff?

The NAMA saga is easier to understand if it is watched through the lens of a hostage drama. The bankers, the creditors, the Government, and the old establishment who got us into this mess, are the kidnappers. They ruined the banks, but now they realise that the banks are their last chance. So they have taken hostage the shell that is the Irish banking system. They have a gun to the banks’ head and are claiming that if we don’t bail them out, the hostage will be killed. So they demand the cash or else they threaten to bring down the whole economy.

It’s a bit like watching the North Koreans with their bankrupt country and their pathetic ideology threatening all and sundry with ramshackle nuclear weapons, which might just devastate their neighbours. The reason anyone takes these creeps seriously is that they have a hostage called South Korea. So we have the bizarre spectacle of the USA indulging a country that starves its own people. As long as North Korea has South Korea and has a gun to its head, the world has to pay some attention. And the more bankrupt North Korea becomes, the more likely it is to do something mad.

The reason we take the banks seriously is that they have convinced us that without them the economy can’t recover. So the Government is both the kidnapper and the negotiator on our behalf. This is because the Government has already bought a stake in the banks and letting them go would mean that that stake is now worthless. So to keep its stake alive, it hangs on to the charade that it can neither let the banks go nor nationalise them.

So we are left with the hostage situation. We are the people who will pay the banks.

Like all hostage situations, there are two questions. First: if we settle and pay up, how do we know that the kidnapper was ever prepared to kill the hostage? And second: if we pay now, how do we know that the kidnapper won’t strike again? After all, the kidnapper has just been rewarded for bad behaviour.

In the NAMA case, the equivalent of this conundrum is that we must assess whether or not letting the banks go — and in the process saving us from handing over to them what could be up to €40bn — is a risk. If you believe that letting the banks go in an orderly fashion would not kill the economy, then there is absolutely no reason to pay a cent to NAMA.

International evidence here is interesting. There is no evidence from the world of finance and banking which says that a winding up of the banking system in a country and replacing it with a new banking system has any lasting effect on the economic performance of the country. In the US this year alone 300 banks and finance houses have gone to the wall and, according to the latest data, the US economy is tentatively recovering. Sweden wound up its worst banks without adverse effect. In France, banks are rarely called banks due to the frequency of bank collapses in the past and France is not a basket case — it recovered and constructed new banks.

Banks are like any other business: new ones replace old ones, and if we install a national deposit guarantee rather than a blanket guarantee, which can be allowed to lapse, we can prevent chaos.

The second question is: if we pay now and reward the kidnappers for bad behaviour, will they not just conclude that there is a blank cheque which will be signed to bail out every problem, thus encouraging them to repeat this bad behaviour again? So, instead of changing behaviour and saving the system, we risk encouraging bad behaviour.

There is also the problem of image. If we are seen as the sort of place that pays kidnappers, what is to stop them kidnapping again for an even bigger ransom? What is to stop bankers rolling up their other bad debts and dropping them into a NAMA mkII?

It is easy to imagine a constitutional challenge to NAMA by an average citizen who is about to be evicted.

This citizen might argue why his debts are being foreclosed on when the much greater debts of huge developers are being given a 10-year timeframe to be sorted out? Such a constitutional challenge could see the entire structure collapsing. On balance it would seem more logical to negotiate with the kidnappers rather than succumb to all their demands. This would mean suggesting that we might not extend the guarantee. This would send equity in the banks plummeting and would upset and unnerve the kidnappers. We might also suggest that we don’t think the hostage is worth the price. Sure, this might cause the share prices to drop back to cents but this is what we should want as it is the people who are going to foot the bill.

The share price is an indication of the confidence of the kidnappers. At the moment it is rising because they think they are going to get top dollar for their hostage and, in the process, they are going to escape jail. It is time now to recalibrate the balance of fear so that the kidnappers have to think twice about their next move.

This could be done by the Green Party pulling out of government, leading to a general election which will allow alternatives to blatant hostage-taking to be put back on Ireland’s agenda.

  1. you are right

    this is a hostage situation

    and the kidnappers do feel and expect to get away scott free thanks to this sleazy government
    yes the Greens should do the only honorable thing and resign and call an election as the price the ocunrty will pay if not will be horrific! but sadly probably their pockets are lined with the same sleaze of the Government as we are dealing with Billion euro players – who are playing extreme hard ball tactics- beware Irish democracy is seriously under attack !!

  2. Peter Schum

    Our politicians are overpaid, and will therefore look after their own short term interests rather than the long term interests of the country. This is demonstrated by how all parties are not calling for John O’Donoghue to resign, but merely apologise for his lavish lifestyle at our expense. If John O’Donoghue goes, then the floodgates will open, so they must all stick together. John Gormley will not pull out of government. NAMA will go ahead, and the kidnappers will get a pardon. Current & future generations will remain hostages to the ransom amount.

    • roc

      It’s not just about looking after their short term interests. It’s about the prevailing logic of the ‘cover-up’. And, the cover-up of the cover-up (from Chris Argyris).
      1. The objective is to protect and defend actor(s) or supraindividual unities such as groups, inter-groups, and organizations.
      2. The primary reasoning processes include making the premises explicit (on the assumption that they are valid) and testing them by the use of self-referential logic. Self-referential logic means testing a claim by the same logic that generated it in the first place. For example, the claim ‘trust me, I know this organization’ should be tested by the same reasoning that the person making the claim is using.
      3. Transparency is avoided in the service of protecting the self and denying that one is protecting the self.
      4. Self-deception is denied by cover-up. In order for the coverup to work, it too must be covered up.

      Such logic thrives in contexts where the defensive features cannot be legitimately challenged. One consequence of this is that not only are issues undiscussable, but that undiscussability is itself undiscussable, so that such generic rules as cover-up, and cover-up of the original cover-up, lack transparency.

      Conditions such as these make the world of defensive reasoning primarily an underground organization. Its existence is known, but actions are rarely taken to correct its counterproductive effects, mainly because, as we shall see, those who share the defensive reasoning mind-set believe that they must continue doing so to prevent the organization from going out of control, from imploding. Organizational defenses, they claim, are necessary to protect organizations from their own defenses. This results in ultra-stable systems that are self-sealing and anti-corrective. [/quote]

  3. MK1

    Hi David,

    I dont know if the hostage analogy works perfectly, but you are right, we could let our banks go (those that are bust without government support) and new banking would emerge. I’ve been saying this for over a year now.

    But there is a hostage situation in a different way. The majority of people may be against NAMA, but because of our “democratic” system, we (joe voter public) dont have a say. We had to vote in 2007 for people that would decide on our behalf. We are thus hostage to a system which has a democratic deficiency. Its a large argument for another day but representative democracy has major flaws when representation does not meet its following (eg: FF support now at 17%, Greens at 3%).

    Its up to the people to change our system, if they have the will and the energy.

    (Cetic) Tiger Kidnapping in our BaNAMA Republic, as your rightly say, you couldnt make it up !!


  4. DH

    The greens pull out? After they cut off their own head just to get in?

    FG and Labour would have to put allot on the table for that to happen and right now they are playing their own games.

  5. Yes tha analogy is superb and spot on. Only 13% of Green grass roots supported whats coming down. Does not matter.Gormley has betrayed his own followers, and the nation.
    If NAMA goes through, Gormley´s Greens wil achieve true notoriety.We expect nothing better fromthe Soldiers of Destiny,but the greens are the real traitors.

    Gormley will go down in history as the Judas who sold out for a short lived respite for his lost soul , to the Fianna Fail “High Priests” of the bankers and property developers.

    • G

      @ tirnanog33 and on Gormless

      What good is it for a man to gain political office only for him to lose half his political party immediately, lose the majority of Green city councillors in the first major election, lose the respect of the nation (the thought they that they a) offered some alternative and b) would keep in FF in check has been firmly put to bed) and eventually his own Ministerial office – you got to hand it to the ego some appetite for destruction………………….

      • G

        And Green ego follows up with a series of bad cliches to justify the whole shooting caboodle:

        “we can’t simply cut and run when the going gets tough” = somebody has bullied and threatened us, forcing us to stay in Government or else…………..

        “it’s not easy being in government, especially with the worse economic crisis since the Great Depression (which nobody saw coming don’t you know)” = a justification for see no evil, hear no evil – why are we paying you in the Dail, Dept. of Finance, expert economists and financial advisors tens of millions of Euro if you couldn’t predict the biggest financial crisis in history – ye knew, but didn’t want to tell anyone – keep on buying in suckers before the wave hits!

        “we have to make tough decisions for the benefit of the country, we make the hard decisions now and enjoy the benefits when the upturn comes” = we have no ideas and simply opened the 1984 financial manual which said, tax, tax, tax & cut, cut cut but not the corporations, the banksters, or professional thieves because the ‘Market’ will not be happy! We hope and pray that something comes down the line (can’t see what because we are an international pariah when it comes to doing business, an international fumble in the greasy till, despite the deep tans and ill fitting suits).

        Maybe high salaries and ministerial pensions has something to do with this ‘Great Green Sacrifice’ – would be in keeping with the ‘me feiner’ that infects the entire system as so often pointed out on this site!

  6. G

    David you are in danger of becoming an unemployable maverick, you need to straddle the line between criticism and recommendation a bit more, that way you will be given a role.

    If you bang the drum loud enough they might offer you a position on the National Consumer Agency or head up the sequel, like some kind of George Lucas-economist – Nama II: Feel the Pain or
    NAMA ll: Attack of the Elite!

    Better to have you in the tent pi**ing out…….you could also be brought in to do an analysis of Dail expenses, with recommendations on how to improve/streamline the system and then pick up 150k in consultancy fees and watch as nothing changes!

    As to John O’Donoghue, well lets just say, there isn’t profanity on this planet that could express what I would like to say to that ******

  7. gadfly55

    Another month to go before the beginning of interminable court battles with Nama to challenge valuation. Already, Sean Fleming FF suggests kicking the task to judges, and we can see how effective they have been with the Zoe merrygo- round through High and Supreme and High and Supreme courts to avoid bankruptcy. Judges avoid like the plague politicized decisions but the legal profession once again will find itself reluctantly making the case, ultimately at the cost to the tax payer indirectly, on behalf of asset owners. As long a money is flowing, a very doubtful and temporary proposition as the Anglo-American financial system unwinds under the weight of private debt and government borrowings, and their governments are confronted with terminal decline of their currency, the Fianna Fool hacks will yahoo their way to another bubble. Of course the rest of us will no longer be able to tolerate their mania, and will consign them to the dustbin of history. If the Greens have any milligram of rationality remaining in their collective conscience, they must do the right thing, and resign within one week.

  8. David, 6 months ago or more, did you not suggest a solution similar to NAMA? What is the difference of what is being proposed by the government to what is you were suggesting, or has the whole scale of the situation changed since then?

  9. Haveaniceday

    After 12 years of watching these morons wreck our country’s one great opportunity to climb out of the shite my heart and will is broken. I laugh at the irony, David, of the Global Irish Economic Forum. What NAMA is going to do to this country there will be no economy – you’re all wasting your time. I grudingly left this country in the early 90′s to start my career. I am now planning on leaving again for Asia except this time I will have no regrets, I will not be back and I will be happier for it.

    Who will turn out the lights?

  10. Thermus B. Airgetinin

    David, we need a modern day St Patrick to drive these snakes from our midst. In my book, you would be the ideal candidate for the post but you would have an almost impossible task to perform. It sounds oxymoronic but for some reason the Irish don’t seem to be able to see reason. It has been the case for far too long, that to name and shame (at horrendous financial cost to the state) anyone in authority…Bertie Ahern, Charlie Haughey et al, only brings them a sort of “cheeky scamp” celebrity status. Nobody ever gets charged with wrongdoing, nobody ever pays a penalty even though the dogs in the street know they were crooks feathering their own and their banking/builder buddies nests. Anyone with a problem and has enough money can buy the solution… a sort of Charley Cheque Card or Bertie Bearer Bond that equates to a “get out of jail free” card. Al Capone was a petty thief compared to some of the people who have weaseled their way into positions of authority and public office. I was listening to the news yesterday when I heard John O Donohue say that he didn’t enter politics to make a profit… well he must surely be in the minority. Its also patently obvious that he was/is making a massive loss to the state with his beano’s in the state jet to Cannes, London, Dublin and… why the hell not I’m not paying for it anyway… back to Cannes again. Did he send any of the thousands of Irish citizens awaiting eviction from their homes and arrival of their redundancy notices a wish you were here card? I’ll bet my life on it that they didn’t even cross his mind. His “apology” echoed and mirrored the begrudging snivelling excuses delivered by the english bangsters to the select committee on finance in the english houses of parliament. Its people with self serving traits like these (and they are legion) that need to be removed from Irish public life, it’s trustworthy, decent, responsible, clever people we need. Mr Bah Humbug Cowan reckons that without NAMA Ireland will stagnate for years to come.. well that shows how much use the EU is going to be to us in the forseeable future, so whats the point of voting for Lisbon2? Step up to the plate Mr Mc Williams you’re time has come, Ireland calls!!!

  11. Hi Niall,

    Yes you are right, 9 months ago around last November, way before Mr Bacon was employed, I proposed a bad bank idea that would exclude the taxpayer from the bill. The bad bank would be the skip into which all the banks threw their bad debt – probably Anglo. This would then be funded by government backed “bad bank” bonds which the remaining banks would pay the interest on from their profits so no dividends for shareholders for ten years.

    The banks would pay the bad bank a fee for liquidating assets and that fee would be paid directly to the bad bank so that it would not cost us anything.

    Once the taxpayer was put on the hook by the NAMA idea, I knew we would be an FF stroke and better to change the plan completely. Also, I can see how we could wind banks
    down easily with no hassle now, so I think better now that the
    international crisis seems to be passing to let them fail in calm
    international markets. D

  12. wills

    David, i think it’s fair too assert at this stage that Ireland lives and breathes under tyranny.

    The tyranny of a ‘gombeen cute hoor elite’ who run the gov, the banking sector, the law, accountancy, big business and the meeja.

    This tyrannical gombeen elite cute hoorism mindset very visible with o’donahoe and FAS last coupla days and if we pulled the rock back further me thinks its not looking good.

    This tyranny must be under some type of threat to it’s continued existence, judging by the stench of desperation and bald faced black propaganda and scaremongering underway.

    Now desperate these gougers are reaching for a gun.

    The gun is NAMA.

    A wrestle and scuffle over the gun is insuing…………………………………………………………………….

  13. severelyltd

    Michael O’Flynn was on Marianne Finucane saying that there was no property market in Ireland and that’s why we need NAMA. There is a market but people with the money know better than to catch a falling knife.Maybe people just don’t want to pay €375K for a one bed starter home in his Elysian building that has 39 penthouses. NAMA is the Governments way of telling people that if they are not willing to buy property off their developer buddies at crazy prices then the government will buy it on your behalf with your Grandkids tax money . Its a disgraceful act tantamount to the greatest robbery ever perpetrated in this country. It is also Government interference in a free market to benefit the few rather than the many. If this thing goes ahead I’ll be packing my bags and taking my first time buyers deposit and my skills to a country that respects democracy and the will of the people. How a government with support of less than 20% can attempt something like NAMA is frankly crazy. Why have we not had an election? or a vote on NAMA? Apathy will be the death of Ireland.

  14. hammer

    They cant come after future generations as we will all be living in the UK or Australia when all these debts are called in. The people giving out will be ex FF ministers sitting on chat shows with big pensions……….the greens will be extinct just like the PD goons.
    It will take 5/10 years for this to work its way through the system. Unfortunately we`ll have had at least 10 annual budgets & maybe another 3/4 supplementary budgets in this period. They will keep coming back to the taxpayers to cover national debt interest & public service wages ( don`t forget public service pensions are no where near being covered – Public Service Pensions levies will be next.

  15. Colin_in_exile

    NAMA is an attempt to engineer a soft landing, the same soft landing that Bart Ahern & co dreamed of a few years ago.

    Does anyone know if Finian McGrath is gonna support the government on NAMA? He’s unusually quiet considering he was previously very high profile. Will McDaid vote for it? There’s a chance it might not go through yet.

  16. wills

    DAIL, wed 3pm – 8pm, sept 16th, 2009, NAMA legislation debate commences.

    Brian Lenihan sets the ball rolling by outlining the main details on the legislation including how much the taxpayers will pay for the banks loan books.

    The taxpayer will pay for NAMA through the gov borrowing from the future earnings of taxpayers using the bond issuance facility available to gov for the common good.

    (news just in, a double decker bus and luas train collide in centre of dublin city………. apt)

    THe party leaders will speak on NAMA with 20 minutes each alloted on sep 17th.

    The gov pushing NAMA as the ‘only option available’ to get ‘credit flowing’ again will take 55 billion in real cash from the future tax earnings of Irish taxpayer by writing up bonds and cashing them at ECB window and putting the tab on the national debt.

    This price for the toxic loans on the banks books the gov will pay for the loans will be far in excess of the real market price of the assets tied to the loans in fact the price paid should be according too mean averages over the last 100 years be two thirds of the book value of loans at least for 50 % of the loans which were borrowed out in the last 3/4 years at bubble max prices.

    Also, many of these loans issued were loaned out through book entries into accounts without real cash pay out’s and many of these massive loans never actualized into real cash in hand.

    • wills

      Dail ,sep 16; 3.30 speakers of each party rise 2 mins each to speak their position in short.

      15:37 cowan stands for a response. “must get to this problem of our time, blah”. cowan sits,

      break for dail protocol;

      • wills

        sep 16, 16.00, leader of fine gael stands and put’s an offer to cowan to stop NAMA bill and he promises cowan fine gael will work with FF to come up with a solution the ‘credit flow’. He sits

        cowan stands and responds,… cowan instantly on the defensive in aggressive mode at deputy kenny accusing him of been populist and goes of on one shouting he is doing this for the common good in a fanatical tone to voice barking his words all over the Dail. He sits.

        Kenny gets up responds how unreal he find cowans rejection of his offer and asserts right lets leave it then and debate your NAMA Bill cowan.

        Kenny continues “this bill is only one way and how much is it going to be and is he prepared too move away to paying over the odds and will he give a guarantee credit will flow again”

        Cowan responds ” we’re going to give all the details to the house, ths is about the gov providing bonds and improving the lending capacity of the banks, this is not at the cost it is been touted we are protecting the interests of the taxpayer…………..”

        ……………so from the start cowan is selling NAMA using black propaganda, mind control aggression and scaremongering.

        • wills

          Gilmore stands and mentions bus / luas crash the speaks.

          “your asking the people of this country to bear a very heavy load………..etc”

          cowan responds this bill has nothing to do with mortgaging the future, its to get mony for the irish businesses. He is now all over the shop in his train of thought and blah blah shouting barking and growling.

          • wills

            gilmore hit’s back, he is not having any of cowans guff.

            cowan back up blagging on about his great record at improving the common good in this country shouting his head off.

            cowan is now shouting in oppostions face threaten them to no follow behing gilmores initiative, cowans jowls now swinging all over his face in twisted faked consternation making out he is the victim.

          • Dilly

            Why is Cowen suddenly worried about Irish businesses ?, they used to throw a couple of hundred million at them each year, while at the same time, allowing for BILLIONS to be ploughed into property and land development.

  17. wills

    sep 16, 16.20, Dail. lenihan on his feet reading through the NAMA bill.
    His intro is all about the bad men saying NAMA is no good. Asserts his gov is been brave doing this. It’s all about seizing the high ground and scaremongering about the bogeyman under the bed if NAMA not done.

      • wills

        this speech ranks in mammyspeak, double speak, propaganda speak, mind control speak.

        “in the history of the state few subjects have been debated more intensively…” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is a lie.

        “it is impossible to over state………..” ???? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fanaticism

        “we must learn lessons from the crisis, and we must and will take the necessary steps to ensure we will never make the same mistakes again” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is something this utterance, extreme maybe just a little, “we” who made mistakes, what “we”, do you mean you, and if so, surely whoever the we is should resign, right.

        “there is a hidden bogey man under the bed risk,the risk to the taxpayer of paralysis and delay” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the ‘ol fox spooking the chickens trick

        “if we do not act we will not be in a position for the next economic recovery” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more spookifying claptrap.

        “so, the time for debate has come to an end” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yes master,…… come to an end master

        “the gov has a duty to act” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well then act and resign right you’ve no mandate for this, this was not in your electoral manifesto when i last read it, this is taxation without representation, you are in flagrant violation of the underlying good faith and trust in the common good that keeps democracy sacrosanct.

        “NAMA has received the backing of the ECB and IMF” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ah well there goes our sovereignty over the horizon for the sake of bailing out rotten corrupty pathological greedy bankers, o sorry, i forgot, it’s been done for my own good so as i can get a loan from the bank and buy a shed for half a million and spend 40 years toiling away re paying it, mmmmmmmmm, thats for my own good, really now, says who, lets see, says you, really, who are you to be prescribing to me what i need when it comes to access too commerce, you and your comrades let this happen in the first place so you are the last person to advice me on this, you are fundamentally compromised right down to the bone my new friend.

        “the cost of borrowing for the state has lowered……..”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ah that’s ok then, we can borrow more then, hang on, i thought borrowing was the problem, i thought too much borrowing caused this credit freeze, right…!!!!
        But this borrowing is over here for to buy this borrowing and once we borrow to plug that we can start credit going again to get more borrowing going again. MMMMMMM really, should we not be reducing borrowing down and get debts paid too free up peoples spending leeway…. what do i know, i’m a shheeeeeep

        “the public understands we cannot have economic recovery if we do not fix the banks…” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really, i thought economic recovery for who brian, to who’s benefit, very specific on action verbs very unspecific on objective case.

        “people need to be reassured their deposits are safe..” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ok reassure me then master with your doublespeak, calm demeanor and lack of accountability. How about proof, proving the deposits are safe, hey mac, prove they are safe, keep your re – assurances for your kid’s, your not a hired re -assurer, your paid to exercise competence not mind control.

        “the bill has been drawn up by the experts of Blah blah and blah blah’ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hang on, weren’t these the dopes that were meant to keep the system safe, and now they are the experts when they’ve been proven to be incompetent or negligent at the very least.

        “just under a year ago the banks were on the brink of collapse” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ok brian, so last year you said the banking system was safe and strong and groovy, so you were telling porkies then, oh dear, then you ought to recant my friend.

        “the well being of our nation and people was under threat”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so, you are saying the banks and property devolpers put our community in jeopardy through their business transactions knowingly and you are now forcing the taxpayer without consent to pay for this crime committed on us, forcing us to pick up their tab which they own a tab that is a ticking time bomb,,……….. this is SICK and you and your ilk will not get away with this fascism.

  18. Philip

    I wonder what John ALLEN will make of this? Luas/DubBus smashup, OECD anticipating we’ll go over 15% unemployment in 2010 and the equinox next Wednesday – the tides tend to have the biggest swings between now and mid October – so even in non-metaphysical terms there’ll be a strong Moon and Sun pull. Basically lads, it’s getting dark out there in every sense of the word.

    My guess…I think the next few days will indicate just how easy or not it will be to kick Paddy around the place.

  19. Robert

    So the figure is in and around 55 – 60 Billion.

    The biggest IOU in the history of the state.

    The share- and bondholders of the banks will be toasting the Irish taxpayer tonight.

    • Robert

      77 Billion with a 30 % discount broken down as:

      Anglo Irish Bank: 28 Billion
      AIB: 24 Billion
      BOI: 16 Billion
      Irish Nationwide: 8 Billion
      EBS: 1 Billion

  20. hammer

    Bloody hell.

    Anglo & INBS – 36,000,000,000 or if you earn €50,000pa – enough to pay you for 720,000 years.

    Now what should we do with its directors ?

    Correct let them resign & give them a nice little pension

    • Tim

      hammer, That’s enough to pay the entire membership of the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland for their complete 40 year careers!

  21. MK1

    So, gov are indicating:
    original value of properties bought by loans: 100b
    loans moved to NAMA: 77b (matches the 77% LTV)
    current market value of those properties: 47b (“Peak” to now: 53%)
    amount paid to banks for loans: 58b => haircut of 25%

    => banks lose (have to write down 19b)

    Future value/return of those loans: ???
    Direct costs to Taxpayer: 58b -47b +- long term value
    Indirect costs to Taxpayer: ???? (billions!)
    (due to property values not reaching a true market value, plus banking requirements to extract profits (pounds of flesh) elsewhere.

    Who wins: Banks + Developers get less pain/lifelines, etc
    Who loses: Taxpayers

    Who votes: Taxpayers

    You decide.


    • Colin_in_exile

      Anyone with half a brain will now decide to emigrate, unless NAMA is somehow stopped.

      Cowen and Lenihan will go down in history as rapists.

  22. Tim

    Folks, End November 09, the Greens will have been 2.5 years in government, thus entitling them to ministerial pensions for life.

    Watch this space.

    • Robert


      This is quite an unbelievable comment to make with you being a FFer. Presumably you’re implying that on Dec 1st, the Greens will jump ship and save the country from NAMA.

      What on Earth are you all talking about at your cannon-fodder FF cumann meetings?

      Have you not all looked at each other and has someone not said the obvious: “What on Earth are we doing in this Party?”

      Don’t give me that nonsense of changing the party from the inside.

    • Tim , let me tell you what We are Really dealing with , I was challenging one of the few Green councilors about why they are waiting till October to cast their vote on NAMA was it to do with their Pensions ?, ( I thought it was a good question at the time ! ) .
      She replied No ,..we got that last October ,…! Did they or do they just not know any better

      • Tim

        BrendanW, according to my sources, a minister only qualifies for the pension if they hold office for a minimum of 2.5 years (or half of one full five-year Dail term).

        Robert, before you go off on one, blaming me (personally) for what is happening, I will tell you what I did at my Cumann meeting last night: We got a UNANIMOUS motion passed to copy the minutes of our last two meetings – including all complaints about NAMA, the way the Parliamentary Party is running the country into the ground, the cuts, the levies, the expenses, why we will not contribute any money to the party, etc., etc. – to head office for the attention of all principals.

        For the first time in ages, I considered the meeting to be 2 hours of my time well-spent (unlike the anti-NAMA march I gave 4 and a half hours to last Saturday).

        Yes, Robert, the question, “What on Earth are we doing in this Party?” was asked.

        Changing from within is not rubbish; change is coming; the ordinary people on the ground are gathering momentum. I am trying as fast as I can. What are you doing?

        • Alan42

          You are either 12 or completly insane . You are a member of a party that is the senior party in government and you are hoping that the junior party will pull down the government ?

          You are going on anti NAMA marches but are still happy to be a member of the party that is proposing NAMA .

          I grew up in a deprived estate in Dublins Northside . I left school in 1984 . Long term unemployment was a way of life and the place was riddled with crime and drugs .

          Not a million miles away lived the leader of FF in a Gandon mansion drinking 5000 Pound bottles of wine and having his shirts flown in from Paris . There was race horses and private islands . We have just had the leadership of a man who cashes his cheque down the local . Converts Euro to Sterling for no good reason and unexplained money was won on the horses .
          We are now in the hands of another leader who during his stint as Minister For Finance inflated the biggest property bubble ever in Ireland . They spent big on the back of this and now we are bankrupt and being bailed out by Europe so that we don’t destabalise the Euro . The same guy refuses to apologise . Thats when you can find him . They are actually asking him openly in the media is he an alcoholic .

          You may think people are angry now but wait until the next budget when peoples parents are beiing denied life saving medical care due to cut backs while property developers are charging NAMA massive fees for their expertise .

          People will never vote for FF again no matter what way you reform it or dress it up . FF will be a slogan for bad lazy corrupt bloated government .

        • Robert


          I’m not blaming you for any of this. I do admire the way you have the courage to admit that you chair FF cumann meetings to be honest.

          Your cumann members might have been better off writing to local TDs to inform them that you will not canvass for them again until there is a change in leadership.

          It was interesting today in the Dail when Kenny offered to Cowen to sit down as an opposition to thrash out a better solution if they drop NAMA – but Cowen was having none of it.

          Change will only come at the next election – It won’t come from within FF.

          That election will probably be in a year or so after FF get NAMA up and running. They’ll then head into opposition for the next 5 years and lay the blame at the next Govt with a “This is not how we envisaged you would run NAMA” attitude. By then the Green Party will be a distant memory in Irish Politics.

          • Tim

            Robert, Cowen should accept Kenny’s offer, after the optics of today’s Dail session are behind him. I hope he will. Your message about not canvassing is just one among many that was unanimously agreed last night.

            I know you may not think that it is much, but I can only tell you that unanimous agreement on an anti-leadership motion is quite unusual. Thanks for telling me that you don’t blame me; I thought you did, based on your invective.

  23. Ah Lads , sure it could be worse!!! ,…it’s only 58 billion , sure it could have been a 100 billion , the Dept of Finance has done a great job !….let’s put this into perspective.
    The last I heard the average industrial wage was 34 grand a year divide that into 58 billion this works out at how many wage packets …1,705,882
    This is Madness when you think it’s not even all their loans
    HOW MUCH OF THIS is for over seas loans ?, as figures don’t add up.
    I called for a Revolution last year ,…now we Really need one !

  24. I am just back from a day cycling down the Mozart radweg.Thanks Wills for the informative commentary on Dail proceedings.
    To reiterate:
    Apartments here in Salzburg range from one to three bedroom and the price range is between 60 thousand and 190 thousand Euros for a top 3 bed apt well located with garage space etc close to the centre of one of Europe´s finest cities..
    Ireland, Fianna Fail, and property prices there, may as well be on another planet.
    All the manipulation and scheming in the world by Mr Lenehan (a decent enough guy for a Fianna Failer) will not put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    I hope David McWilliams and George Lee get together when this government falls into the Black Hole where it belongs.
    God knows there are no miracles out there,to be performed by even the most intelligent and well meaning public figures, but at least we will remove the crony developer element from the scenario.!

  25. HeavyEnlightenedOne

    Obfuscation due to opinion.

    Twenty years ago, a person would be Told to shut the phuck up, where opinions are confused with facts.

    1)Today, the bolloxticians can each assert their opinions and expect a following. On Lisbon and national economic matters.

    2) Due respect to Mr. Mc, but most of our economists seems to be swayed easily enough from their initial opinions/ assertions – leading one to doubt their competence as well.

    3) Mr Lucey may be right or maybe wrong. But he was clearly cut to bits on matters of simple English interpretation. Meaning, that his co-signers were not much better, if not equally worse.

    How can we, the general public, decide on anything be it Lisbon or Nama when their is too much opinion from people who would normally be trusted to know their stuff?

    Primetime won’t help. It can but won’t. There is no point in having six people around a table, where all agree – bad television. So their viewpoint is self serving also, leading to increased ratings, and increased confusion.
    Indeed, Mr Mc did okay from having an opposed opinion for the last few years.

    Can we trust Alan Ahearne? He seems young; youth lending to ideas of inexperience. This historical measuring stick of competence, was shredded last year when old men of our Regulator, exhibited signs of utter incompetence, married to lies or lack of understanding. So we can’t trust age either.

    Bacon has special insight into the coast of County Longford. Understandably, he didn’t write the complete report himself. Astonishingly, it appears that he must n’t have even read it, himself.

    Financial systems can’t be that abstract, can they? Complicated for sure, but hardly abstract like some areas of physics?

    In conclusion; we seem to have competent people who we can’t believe.
    We seem to incompetent people who we may believe.
    The experts, can’t be expert or there would be divergence.
    The experts, can’t be expert or they couldn’t be swayed.
    There’s no point in a referendum on Nama, as the shinners suggest.
    There’s no logical point in a referendum on Lisbon, because WE CANNOT FILTER THE REASON FROM THE RUSE.

    We need Experts, not self serving mouth pieces and its time to get RUDE on the difference. Else, we will turn into zombies, as well and forever.

  26. Tim

    Folks, this, from Joe Higgins:

    No to NAMA — Join the protest!
    Print Print PostDateIcon September 16th, 2009 | PostAuthorIcon Author: Joe Higgins

    Today the government has outlined it’s plans for the National Asset Managment Agency — a digusting bailing out of the banks. Here Joe Higgins restates his fundamental opposition to NAMA, and calls on working people to turn out on Saturday’s demonstration against this obscene bail-out.

    NAMA Demo posterThe banks now being bailed out for their reckless lending to greedy speculators and developers are the same banks who show precious little consideration to ordinary householders who fall behind on mortgage payments on the overpriced houses they were forced into buying

    The Green’s may be pleased with the 30% ‘hair cut’ but the fact remains that already 60% of the proposed loans being taken on are not performing and that’s a figure only likely to go up in the years ahead.

    No individual in their right mind would buy a house or a second hand car for that matter for anything other than the current market value and yet in this instance we are expected to swallow a concept of ‘Long Term Economic Value’ which in plain language is nothing more than an aspiration by the government and their builder, banker and speculator friends of a return of the property bubble in the not too distant future.

    The government makes a great play of the approval their plan has earned from the ECB and IMF, institutions for whom the interests of Irish working people do not figure highly. They are remarkably silent however on the recent judgement of the courts in Ireland on the Carroll case which has essentially rubbished the whole premise of NAMA.

    Capitalism we were told rewards the risk takers but without a hint of irony this afternoon Minister Lenihan justifies NAMA as he refers to ‘risk that the private sector is not willing to take on’. I say to the Minister let them take their losses and nationalise the banks under the control and management of the bank staff and working people generally.

    Only the pressure of people power can stop NAMA at this stage. I therefore strongly urge people and especially the youth who could be saddled with the consequences of NAMA for their entire working lives to turn out in force at the demonstration against NAMA this Saturday 19th September at 1pm beginning at the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin or at any of the other actions planned around the country on that day

    • Alan42

      Tim , let me get this right . Are you a member of FF ? Or am I having some kind of breakdown ?
      Now you are quoting Joe Higgins ?????

      • Tim

        Alan42, You are not having a breakdown; I am a member of FF and, yes, I quote Joe Higgins on occasion – why not quote someone who is making sense (regardless of political label)?

        We are not all sheep, following blindly…….

    • Colin_in_exile


      What makes you think the turnout for the 2nd demo on the 19th will exceed last Saturday’s?

      The problem isn’t so much with the FF leadership, the problem is with the thousands of people who believe the slogan “NAMA is the only show in town”. Most homeowners don’t want their home to lose value, which will certainly happen if FF abandon NAMA. So, its a simple choice for most people, do I want my house value to plummet or do I want the country to plummet, and most would prefer to see the country plummet first.

      Me Fein is alive and well in 2009. Of course, they’ll only see the error of their ways when things get so bad that they lose their jobs and have no hope finding new ones, and can’t even sell their home to finance their only remaining option of emigration. Ah but sure ignorance is bliss.

      • wills

        A large majority of the pop of POnzi rep bought into a ‘who wants to be a millionaire fantasy’ (david called them decklanders i think) and all are now stuck with a lose lose situation.

        There is no escape. If NAMA goes ahead the jig is up. If NAMA is scrapped the jig is up.

        Now, who is left. The next generation coming along. David spoke on them at lunchtime on rte 1 radio news. He was very specific about how it is the 20 – 30 year old generation who are under the NAMA kosh.

        I have been pounding away for 6 months trying to highlight this sequence of events. NAMA is not an accident. The credit crunch is not an accident. The obliterating of a generations future is not an accident.

        Generation x (eighties kids) were obliterated very much through the same channels. Irelands gombeen elites kept i rates at 15 % and killed the economy stone dead for a certain age group.

        History is repeating itself. An older generation of has been’s mostly baby boomer / 60′s air heads are torching a new generation on a NAMA pyre and using the excuse that they are carrying this out because they have no choice they made them have to do it, which i do believe is sociopathic behaviour to some degree.

        I say, let’s nail these fu2kers once and for all, lets pin it down conceptually so accurately it becomes truth bombs.

        All of us here, pull together with David out front and laser beam our combined intelligence.

        • Wills the scary thing is to I’ve just heard this 54,000,000,000 is just for a group of some 2,000 people . Ireland property just cannot be worth this much ,

          • Tim

            BrendanW, true, but, sure, we knew that! They kept on racheting-up the prices, nonetheless…..

            ….. I think the Dunne deal in Ballsbridge was what caused people to wake up and say WTF?


            (Just repeat that three times and see if you’re still sane!?)

          • wills

            brendanw, these guys are out to shock and awe us all into a sort of mental emotional paralysis with the scale of their corruption, and i reckon, judging by your well lively posts you’d be last man to freeze under the NAMA kosh.

            I say, let’s brainstorm these fu2kers into oblivion, whad’ya reckon….!!

      • Alan42

        Anybody selling a house now is in distress . There are houses on in Cabra for 250,000 Euro . Make them an offer of 180,000 to 200,000 Euro and you have yourself a house .
        How can any government reduce the costs in the economy while at the same time trying to inflate the price of property ? Any normal economy would be delighted that house prices are reasonably cheap . Mortgage repayments are the biggest demands on wages . You simply can’t do both at the same time . Not that it would be normal for any government anywhere in the world would try to inflate the prices of property .

      • Tim

        Colin_in_exile, that’s precisely why we have to keep trying!

        Look, in 10, 20, or 30 years time, what do we want to say we did during this specific 12 month period?

        “I did not know”, is what many will say;
        “I felt helpless”, is what many will say;
        “What could I do?”, is what many will say;

        I will say to my kids, “I tried every God-Damned thing I could and I refused to give up until I had told as many people as I could, fought to get the party grass roots to take action as hard as I could, marched/protested everywhere I could and spread the word to as many people as I could.”

        This is no time for defeatism: the Fat Lady aint singin’ yet!

        • Colin_in_exile


          I hope you’re right but I fear you’re not.

          Now, I’ll only ask this one more time – What is Finian McGrath’s stance on the NAMA bill? Will he support the Government a la Tony Gregory by voting for NAMA or will he do the right thing by pulling out of his pact with the Government? Can anyone find out if he’s still alive? Has he been abducted by aliens?

  27. Robert

    Well you have to hand it to RTE – Their media coverage of today’s proceedings wouldn’t have looked out of place in Zimbabwe.

    Straight after Lenihan had finished speaking, the opposition (which is supposed to be part of a functioning democracy) stood up to speak in the form of Richard Bruton. RTE then cut their television broadcast.

    Did you hear of O’Donoghue’s apology for his expenses on RTE? Well you might have if you’d stayed tuned to 9.32 PM – at the “and finally” part of the news.

    Still you could’ve sat down to watch a detailed debate after the news on probably the most important piece of legislation to go through the Dail since the foundation of the state – No wait . . . . The Midweek Movie “How to lose a Guy in 10 Days” is on.

    Well at least AIB can have reason to cheer – They finished 30 % up in New York this evening.

    • Robert , we may as well be in zimbabwe , RTE is run by the Dail and gets extra revenue from the Financial industry . I watched the 6 o clock news on line and my German business partner asked , why were they not letting us here the Dail speeches ?… The Answer in it’s simplicity is complex ed but we are just been robbed , the REAL Cash value of these un finished developments has to be under 30billion , the land that is ‘zoned’ cannot nor should not be given the high value. We are just been fleeced .

    • Tim

      Robert, don’t despair, entirely…… I expect that Vincent Browne will satiate my need for expressions of ire at 11pm.

    • Colin_in_exile


      Why are you surprised with RTE’s antics? They’re all living it up out there in Donnybrook, and who has funded this for the last 12 years? Who has given them increases in tv licence fees? Ever wonder who’s behind the attempt to portray Enda Kenny as a gutless wonder?

      The RTE boyos know what side their bread is buttered on. Do you think “No Frontiers” will stop showing us what a beach in the seychelles looks like? or shopping delights to be found in Dubai?

  28. Tim

    Folks, two tweets below sent to “The Right Hook” (yet again!) this evening – ignored, as usual I’m afraid.

    @ghook WRONG Emmet! If a capitalist bank goes bust, it goes! So what? We already have a GOOD bank with branches everywhere: An Post Bank.

    @ghook, let govt. give 57 billion for An Post to loan out to SMEs and that will give liquidity back to the country. #NAMA is a bailout-lie!

    • Josey

      Bravo for trying Tim, I just sent him the folowing via email!!!!

      With regard to the NAMA debacle and all it’s excuses no one has mentioned An Post’s POSTBANK!!!

      POSTBANK is our GOOD Bank, should all the other banks have been let fail we already have a Bank in place with Branches all over the Country!!!

      Why did the GOVERNMENT not just give POSTBANK the 57billion Euro to lend out to businesses??? This would have oiled the gears of the Economy ASAP, with NAMA it’s going to take months if not a year or more for that “bailout” to filter through into the economy.

      I can see big fat bonuses for all the fat cats being paid out Goldman Sachs style.

      This is a sham, a con and a “bait and switch” and we’ve been suckered BIG TIME!!!

      Many thanks,


      Let’s bombard Hookie, he’s the only one that will even consider the other side!!!

  29. wills

    jedi knights, check out ‘ol kunstler piece, new one, all centered on REality fighting back. Replace USA for POnzi Rep (Ireland). Check it out…………full of gem counter – intel too the bankster network take over……………….

  30. wills

    What’s NAMA ‘s subterfuge…?????????????????????????

    How about………………………… NAMA is a wedge on the deployment of accumulated wealth for productive purposes in the service of continuing civilization in order to preserve and consolidate elite control.

  31. Another point ;
    I am here in central Europe and I have tried to get some of what went on in the Dail today on the RTE website,and all i can find is a few ten seconds snippets of the verbal exchanges.
    is there a site where I can watch all of todays historic and histrionic Dail proceedings which will affect my childrens children, or is our “democracy” reduced to a ten second snippet from RTE.?
    Goebellesque, Unprecedented,Bizzare, Unreal.

  32. Clearly RTE has judged that today’s NAMA plan from the government isn’t particularly vital to the future of the country. Presumably they’ve taken some sort of sounding. Otherwise they’d have suspended all schedules & acted as if this was a national emergency.

    Saving or rescuing the Irish banks can really only mean enabling the mandarins to stay in place. If the government meant to save the banking institutions, they’d have cleared out sufficient personnel to restore trust. This is about keeping the powerful in power. Pure politics.

    We all know that the clique that runs this government has only one driving inspiration: holding on to power & the trappings of power.

    Unfortunately Enda Kenny has persuaded us all that he’s got no ethical stance whatsoever. Sadly Gilmore is another political gameplayer. I suppose this is the legacy of about 40 years total endoctrination of youngsters into a mindset. Hardly any exposure to the challenge of thinking ahead for their grandchildren.

    J’accuse… Go drink with John O’Donoghue & Brian Cowen & the Anglo10… Wake the slumbering Office of Corporate Enforcement… Go enjoy yourselves in the panto…

    In my mind, today, you are all naked, latrined and fags.

    • Paul here is RTE’s news room phone number 353 12083111 , they will not give me any comment ,…This is a Sham rotten to the core ,…every one of our politicians is involved along with each RTE executive and broad caster this is the social make up of our counrty , except now with our Union Leaders been highly paid thanks to Bertie , there is no one defending the general public …. Things have to start changing .
      And the Kerry man said Sorry , so now those Hotel bills are ok , CRAZY

  33. zohan

    He He He Bond movie indeed ! While all the bitchin be goin on…the developers and bankers will take off on a nice long vacation and will come back when all is calm again……and get back to what they know best…………..Stroking

  34. “Apathy may well be the end of Ireland”
    All the Triumvirate of Govt, Builder and Banks that are collectively responsible for the Property Charade are all still in Place. We have to live in a Country where having created an economic catastrophe that affects us all , we now must watch the exact same entities saddle any amount of money they like on our head so as to preserve their own vested interests and it seems that there is nothing we can do. Its hardly a democracy at all really.

  35. Tim

    Folks, now there’s a thing I don’t understand:

    We (taxpayers) own NAMA;

    We (taxpayers) own ANGLO;

    Why do we have to pay for what we already own?

    Is this like the Eircom fiasco? Remember, when the govt privatised it and sold it to the people, even though we already owned it, and loads of people lost alot of money, buting their own company?

    For simplicity:

    Why would NAMA buy anything from ANGLO? Both have the same owner, right?

    • wills

      tim, these guy’s are not using logic anymore moreso magical thinking, hookery pokery and running round the hell fire club under a blue full moon.

      Time to call in john ALLEN

    • MK1

      Hi Tim,

      > Why do we have to pay for what we already own?

      Whilst the nationalised AngloIrish is the biggest beneficiary of intended funding from the proposed NAMA with a 28b “promise”, it is a movement of money from one part of the Government to a state owned institution. The 28billion is borrowed money but in essence it is moving money within state entities, borrowed money that is. It will put Anglo Irish in a better position.

      We also have “skin in the game” through the recapitalisation in the cases of AIB and BOI, although we gave several billion away cheaply but de facto own 25% of them, and also with the state guarantees we have shored the whole lot up.

      What a mess ….. and what a cost.

      One thing that has been shown is that Irish Life & Permanent arent getting any NAMA money, so would seem to be the cleanest of “our” banks. Granted they were involved in the Irish Nationwide cooking the books (how the auditors that didnt spot this are still practicing is beyond any infantile comprehension!) episode, but would it be plausible for people to put their money (and their loans) with this one good bank and leave all the others.

      People can vote but they can also move their money around. Maybe its time we did …….


      ps: yes, Lance the Boil.

      • Tim

        MK1, Thanks, but, even at 1.5%, that money is costing us hundreds of millions (€810million for the full 54billion in one year, I think).

        Why have that cost at all, when we could just “hand over” the rotten assets to NAMA with no cost paid?

  36. wills

    Ireland is split between those who’ll do anything for their house prices to go back to bubble prices (A) and the rest (B). A are ready and able to sacrifice B if necessary to make this happen.

    Civil war looms………………………………………………………………………….

    • Wills , have the local papers published the county council figures yet ?,…I’ve heard wexford is short already 15 million , role on the Revolution !

      • wills

        peaceful revolution, we defeat his rot with laser beam counter intelligence, use the force luke.

      • Tim


        Wicklow Town Council is Broke – Cllr told us last night.

        Presume similar all around the country. It is getting very close to wheat DMcW said last year, with BL saying to BC, “Taoiseach, I don’t have enough money to pay the teachers!”.

  37. Tim

    I got a notification that one of my comments (about an email to Brian Cowen and some links I got from Mark Little about what the international media is saying about NAMA Ireland)


    “Tim | 16 Sep 2009 10:45 pm Your comment is awaiting moderation.”

    I wonder why?

  38. wills

    Irish society is splitting down the middle to – day between those who are prepared to do anything to re boot bubble prices for their house (property nuts) and the rest (regular joe).

    two observations on PROPERTY NUTS to keep an eye out on;

    1) when a psychotic person is confronted with info that directly and definitely squashes their delusion, then they often react with a ‘psychotic break’, becoming disorganized and violent.

    2) no people will ever willingly sacrifice what they beleive to be their ordained way of life.

    This i believe is the fanatical mindset thrusting NAMA down irelands throat.

  39. Tim

    Nope…. that is awaiting moderation, too; So here is the email to Cowen, with the link allowing you to send a message, too:

    Tim | 16 Sep 2009 10:45 pm Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Folks, email sent to FF HQ for Brian Cowen this evening:

    Dear Brian, A Thaoisaigh, Please, please, take Kenny up on his offer of a “sit-down” to work out a better way for our country than NAMA?

    If you can agree on something that we can all support, the people and the party will be happy. If you cannot agree on any other solution, you will be seen to have tried, at least.

    Either way, your leadership and openness will be enhanced.

    You have nothing to lose by trying; and we all have everything to gain.


    Kind regards,

    You can send on, too, if you wish:

    …… maybe the “moderation problem is because I put so many links into the one post, David? (Sorry…. just, tell me why).

    • wills

      good work tim, maybe it’s due too blog receiving alot of visits.??

    • Frankly ,it galls me, the idea of sending petitions to that Guinness swilling, bloated, wildschweine, one Brian Cowan, who has sat in the Dail for countless years,while the country imploded, waiting his turn to become leader and Taoiseach of a our small, desolate, and now bankrupt island, off the coast of Europe.
      When will the people rise ?
      Are there only 500 good citizens left to protest-in all of the republic of Ireland?

  40. Tim

    Posting links seperately on international views of NAMA:

    (Courtesy of Mark Little)


  41. Malcolm McClure

    Let’s be generous and assume that Lenihan can sell 10 year bonds at 5% interest rate.
    Let’s also assume that he can sell half the €54 B toxic assets at cost after 5 years and the rest after 10 years realizing his €7 B profit.
    €27 B at 5% for 5 years rolls up to €34.46 B
    €27 B @ 5% for 10 years rolls up to € 43.98 B
    Olé!!: Lenihan (ie: us) proposes to pay €78.44 B for assets optimistically worth €47 B

    So he realizes €54 B after ten years and says NAMA was a triumph of economic wizardry by FF. (Forgetting all about the other €24 B interest that we paid in taxes.)

    Does he think we’re all completely dumb?

  42. Tim

    Also tonight, the text of the new bank guarantee scheme (via

  43. wills

    bANker attacking outspoken working class woman on vincent brown undrway, true colors revealed.

    • Robert


      Yeah a former CEO of Bank of Ireland (Michael Soden) stating that he didn’t believe in society funding or looking after unmarried mothers.

      The look of shock of Karl Whelan’s face when he asked him if it was justifiable in bailing out the banks to the tune of 54b instead was a sight to behold.

  44. Tim

    Karl Whelan on the long and the short of the NAMA Haircut (also says AIB shares up 26% in late trading in New York)

    • Deco

      Lance the Boyle – Boyle has used the key position of the Greens to make sure that the banks get preferential treatment in government policy. Boyle is driving this madness of looking after the banks.

  45. Tim

    “On the verge or insolvency” (the banks), says IT man……..

    ….. eh, they ARE insolvent, not “on the verge”.

    Do an “MK1″:

    “Lance the BOIL! (… and it IS a BOIL… festering for 12 months – rotten to the core, now…….. puss no longer yellow, but green….)

You must log in to post a comment.
× Hide comments