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	<title>Comments on: Banks giving us two fingers don&#8217;t deserve State bailout</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout</link>
	<description>The website of economist, author and broadcaster, David McWilliams</description>
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		<title>By: paddythepig</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59154</link>
		<dc:creator>paddythepig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59154</guid>
		<description>wills, 

I don&#039;t understand your last two paragraphs. 

Could you explain your point of view in simple English, with preferably a real world example to add clarity.  

Paddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wills, </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand your last two paragraphs. </p>
<p>Could you explain your point of view in simple English, with preferably a real world example to add clarity.  </p>
<p>Paddy.</p>
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		<title>By: wills</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59138</link>
		<dc:creator>wills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59138</guid>
		<description>malcolm: if it was rolled out as outlined, successfully, this digital system
could be credit as a public utility - for the world, without limits and price
would always find its market equilibrium uninterrupted... wow!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>malcolm: if it was rolled out as outlined, successfully, this digital system<br />
could be credit as a public utility &#8211; for the world, without limits and price<br />
would always find its market equilibrium uninterrupted&#8230; wow!!</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm McClure</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59135</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm McClure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59135</guid>
		<description>wills: This suggestion will only be considered acceptable after a total collapse of the present system, then after at least a further year of nose to nose negotiation by the G20&#039;s foremost experts, then after another couple of years to implement a pilot scheme. If the present system manages to muddle through, it may not happen for another 30 years, but some day something like this will become the foundation of the world economy.

Of course it isn&#039;t a solution for the immediate difficulties faced by Ireland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wills: This suggestion will only be considered acceptable after a total collapse of the present system, then after at least a further year of nose to nose negotiation by the G20&#8217;s foremost experts, then after another couple of years to implement a pilot scheme. If the present system manages to muddle through, it may not happen for another 30 years, but some day something like this will become the foundation of the world economy.</p>
<p>Of course it isn&#8217;t a solution for the immediate difficulties faced by Ireland.</p>
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		<title>By: wills</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59131</link>
		<dc:creator>wills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59131</guid>
		<description>Paddy&#039; : greed is one of the powering factor&#039;s of a bubble but not a real
economy. Greed is in it&#039;s box in a real economy. 

ok, pursuing free market is not as simple as merely focusing all energies
on one method of economic integration, in the case of bubbles/POnzi schemes all on that of market exchange  and ignoring the two other
methods of economic integration, re-distribution and reciprocity.

The consequence of priority being given to exchange relations is an unlinking
of social relations from economy relations, so that society is viewed
as being de-coupled from the economy.
Hence that pervasive feeling of people&#039;s worth being judged by what
they are oppossed to who they are,....  Karl Polanayi

On Invisible Hand,.. works it&#039;s magic when exchanges concur to above rules of
diligence when operating free markets,.

On monopolies, de-coupling explained above opens the door for closing
down perfect competition by ignoring the 3 protocols and the invisible
hand stalls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paddy&#8217; : greed is one of the powering factor&#8217;s of a bubble but not a real<br />
economy. Greed is in it&#8217;s box in a real economy. </p>
<p>ok, pursuing free market is not as simple as merely focusing all energies<br />
on one method of economic integration, in the case of bubbles/POnzi schemes all on that of market exchange  and ignoring the two other<br />
methods of economic integration, re-distribution and reciprocity.</p>
<p>The consequence of priority being given to exchange relations is an unlinking<br />
of social relations from economy relations, so that society is viewed<br />
as being de-coupled from the economy.<br />
Hence that pervasive feeling of people&#8217;s worth being judged by what<br />
they are oppossed to who they are,&#8230;.  Karl Polanayi</p>
<p>On Invisible Hand,.. works it&#8217;s magic when exchanges concur to above rules of<br />
diligence when operating free markets,.</p>
<p>On monopolies, de-coupling explained above opens the door for closing<br />
down perfect competition by ignoring the 3 protocols and the invisible<br />
hand stalls.</p>
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		<title>By: paddythepig</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59129</link>
		<dc:creator>paddythepig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59129</guid>
		<description>Tim, your last sentence is a good question. The answer - and this is my personal opinion - is that a lot of it is gambling. There is the dumb money, and the smart money. The holders of the dumb money are gambling in the market. The holders of the smart money are either students of the market, lucky, or insiders. 

There was a Prime Time about a month ago, where different characters who had lost money in the last year were rolled out. There was a Kerry farmer who sold a field for zoned land, and invested the 1 million euro proceeds in bank shares. He lost the lions share. When asked what he thought, he was very honest. He said &#039;Ultimately, I could have put into a deposit account for 3% interest. But I didn&#039;t. I wanted big gains, big money. It&#039;s my own fault&#039;. 

His was the dumb money. He invested, not understanding his investment. But crucially, he has learnt about his mistake, and will not make the same mistake twice. 

This is my point about learning the lesson of the market. If you distort it&#039;s outcome by interference, it&#039;s lesson will never be learnt. And behaviour will not be modified. 

So why have a market at all? Well, one good reason is to provide a pricing mechanism for tradable items ; in the absense of a free market, how would pricing be determined. 

People have argued that if we have no market, these excesses will never appear in the first place. Well is that true? Will the nature of people be different in the absense of a market? I don&#039;t think so. I still think we will have greed, and stupidity, and the dumb and the smart money, and all the other human foibles. That&#039;s why I view the long term trends of the market as reflective of natural value, and a useful teacher about exercising judgement, and assessing true value and risk.

The lesson that most ordinary Joe&#039;s should learn from the events of recent years, is don&#039;t invest in something you don&#039;t control or understand. Don&#039;t complain when your sloppy investment goes wrong, and your sense of &#039;divine right&#039; to make a profit is shattered. And finally, a housing market should be different to a stock market in that housing fulfils a basic social need ; but if you treat it like a stock market, and you lose, you - and no-one else - should bear your losses. 

Paddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, your last sentence is a good question. The answer &#8211; and this is my personal opinion &#8211; is that a lot of it is gambling. There is the dumb money, and the smart money. The holders of the dumb money are gambling in the market. The holders of the smart money are either students of the market, lucky, or insiders. </p>
<p>There was a Prime Time about a month ago, where different characters who had lost money in the last year were rolled out. There was a Kerry farmer who sold a field for zoned land, and invested the 1 million euro proceeds in bank shares. He lost the lions share. When asked what he thought, he was very honest. He said &#8216;Ultimately, I could have put into a deposit account for 3% interest. But I didn&#8217;t. I wanted big gains, big money. It&#8217;s my own fault&#8217;. </p>
<p>His was the dumb money. He invested, not understanding his investment. But crucially, he has learnt about his mistake, and will not make the same mistake twice. </p>
<p>This is my point about learning the lesson of the market. If you distort it&#8217;s outcome by interference, it&#8217;s lesson will never be learnt. And behaviour will not be modified. </p>
<p>So why have a market at all? Well, one good reason is to provide a pricing mechanism for tradable items ; in the absense of a free market, how would pricing be determined. </p>
<p>People have argued that if we have no market, these excesses will never appear in the first place. Well is that true? Will the nature of people be different in the absense of a market? I don&#8217;t think so. I still think we will have greed, and stupidity, and the dumb and the smart money, and all the other human foibles. That&#8217;s why I view the long term trends of the market as reflective of natural value, and a useful teacher about exercising judgement, and assessing true value and risk.</p>
<p>The lesson that most ordinary Joe&#8217;s should learn from the events of recent years, is don&#8217;t invest in something you don&#8217;t control or understand. Don&#8217;t complain when your sloppy investment goes wrong, and your sense of &#8216;divine right&#8217; to make a profit is shattered. And finally, a housing market should be different to a stock market in that housing fulfils a basic social need ; but if you treat it like a stock market, and you lose, you &#8211; and no-one else &#8211; should bear your losses. </p>
<p>Paddy.</p>
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		<title>By: wills</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59128</link>
		<dc:creator>wills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59128</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not been picky for the sake of, but would this in-depth
analysis on a global currency (digital) not be fixing vast power into
too few fixed points ie, owners of the cell networks, and
owners of patents for appropriate software and controllers
of actual electronic matrix architecture serving the concept.?,
 Despite my reservations, staggering in its reach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not been picky for the sake of, but would this in-depth<br />
analysis on a global currency (digital) not be fixing vast power into<br />
too few fixed points ie, owners of the cell networks, and<br />
owners of patents for appropriate software and controllers<br />
of actual electronic matrix architecture serving the concept.?,<br />
 Despite my reservations, staggering in its reach.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: adamabyss</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59126</link>
		<dc:creator>adamabyss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59126</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I fully agree Paddy, it was all self-induced by greed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I fully agree Paddy, it was all self-induced by greed.</p>
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		<title>By: paddythepig</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59125</link>
		<dc:creator>paddythepig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59125</guid>
		<description>Wills, 

By all means chip in. 

What specific monopolies and &#039;invisible hands&#039; are you referring to? 

Seems to me the market has reached a sane verdict on the Celtic Bubble. It was all froth. 

If I had to criticise any aspect of recent events, it would be the freedom that Irish society, and societies in general, has had to promote and participate in such excesses in the first place. Prevention better than cure, and all that.   

It&#039;s easy to blame external factors ; in my opinion, the real blame lies within.

Paddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wills, </p>
<p>By all means chip in. </p>
<p>What specific monopolies and &#8216;invisible hands&#8217; are you referring to? </p>
<p>Seems to me the market has reached a sane verdict on the Celtic Bubble. It was all froth. </p>
<p>If I had to criticise any aspect of recent events, it would be the freedom that Irish society, and societies in general, has had to promote and participate in such excesses in the first place. Prevention better than cure, and all that.   </p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to blame external factors ; in my opinion, the real blame lies within.</p>
<p>Paddy.</p>
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		<title>By: wills</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59121</link>
		<dc:creator>wills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59121</guid>
		<description>LOL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Furrylugs</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/04/22/banks-giving-us-two-fingers-dont-deserve-state-bailout/comment-page-3#comment-59110</link>
		<dc:creator>Furrylugs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">640737945#comment-59110</guid>
		<description>And phone yer man in Armagh to sack some bishop or other. That&#039;ll keep the meeja busy for a few days until we spread it about that Ganley is all for same sex marriages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And phone yer man in Armagh to sack some bishop or other. That&#8217;ll keep the meeja busy for a few days until we spread it about that Ganley is all for same sex marriages.</p>
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