Comments on: Forgive debtors, dole out the penance and move on http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on The website of economist, author and broadcaster, David McWilliams Thu, 09 Feb 2012 02:55:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2 By: Shane Dempsey http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-4#comment-54962 Shane Dempsey Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:25:12 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54962 The thing that will turn most blog geeks off this blog (and I AM one) is that nobody is @rsed talking about technology here. It's a blog entirely about national and international economics without references to gizmos, billion dollar IPO's or social networking buddies. Most of the swearing comes from the commenters. In short it's a bit traditional but in many ways the better for it as David has allowed a relatively (relative to the rest of the net) focussed group of armchair economists to share thoughts about the economy. This is an important outlet which is getting people passionate about economics and understanding how the financial markets work. It's also raising the standard of analysis and criticism of our leaders economic decisions, leaving them cruelly exposed. Education is what we need right now rather than ill-informed knee jerk reactions. The thing that will turn most blog geeks off this blog (and I AM one) is that nobody is @rsed talking about technology here. It’s a blog entirely about national and international economics without references to gizmos, billion dollar IPO’s or social networking buddies. Most of the swearing comes from the commenters. In short it’s a bit traditional but in many ways the better for it as David has allowed a relatively (relative to the rest of the net) focussed group of armchair economists to share thoughts about the economy. This is an important outlet which is getting people passionate about economics and understanding how the financial markets work. It’s also raising the standard of analysis and criticism of our leaders economic decisions, leaving them cruelly exposed. Education is what we need right now rather than ill-informed knee jerk reactions.

]]> By: Tim http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-4#comment-54919 Tim Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:57:04 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54919 Philip, an old ex-school marm said this to me four years ago: "Ah, sure, Tim, they know the price of everything, but the value of nothing". I think that is what you are saying here, too. Philip, an old ex-school marm said this to me four years ago:

“Ah, sure, Tim, they know the price of everything, but the value of nothing”.

I think that is what you are saying here, too.

]]> By: finbarr http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-1#comment-54918 finbarr Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:53:16 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54918 I have to disagree with so much in the way of figures I dont know where to begin.. Benchmarking has cost this country hugely, we have the second highest minimum wage in Europe that destroying our capacity to compete, and you may not like Matt cooper but I dont restrict my listening/Rerading to those who agree with me. That way I get more accurate figures rather than pulling them out of the air. But I will quote one for you and tell you where it came from. The ESRI reported that the Irish civil service is bloated by 8000, This report was edited by Irish civil servants who censored our this part... As far as I know Matt Cooper does not work for the ESRI I have to disagree with so much in the way of figures I dont know where to begin..

Benchmarking has cost this country hugely, we have the second highest minimum wage in Europe that destroying our capacity to compete, and you may not like Matt cooper but I dont restrict my listening/Rerading to those who agree with me. That way I get more accurate figures rather than pulling them out of the air. But I will quote one for you and tell you where it came from. The ESRI reported that the Irish civil service is bloated by 8000, This report was edited by Irish civil servants who censored our this part…
As far as I know Matt Cooper does not work for the ESRI

]]> By: pera http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-3#comment-54902 pera Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:49:34 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54902 Hi MK1, >Pera/Tim, I’ll have a trawl through some of the stats in that report, but I take it Pera and Tim from what you have both said so far >that the claim of our PS costs being 11th out of 15th is not corroborated so far by hard data. I have not had much time this weekend, but I would like to confirm that you are correct in your above assumption. I have not found any hard data yet. Personally I have seen a lot of anecdotal evidence that would indicate that Irelands PS pay would be very high on most countries scales, but what I think is very important to note is that Ireland seems to be very high in pay when it comes to pay to senior civil servants (in that regards I believe that Ireland is world leaders when it comes to rewarding senior civil servants and employees in semi-state companies, but again this is based only on anecdotal evidence) But for the civil service as a whole I am not sure where Ireland stands in pay, but at the same time, the tax burden for lower paid workers in Ireland is very low compared to other countries, so these comparisons can be very hard. So maybe the spread in salaries in PS or Ireland is higher and thus bringing down the average, but I will be on the lookut for more information, and try and compare like for like. In the first like for like test, Ireland does not come out very well (Taoseaich vs. Prime ministers rest of europe) But as mentioned before, an interesting thing about the report, was to see the labor costs in different countries, and you can guess the amount of spin the SMEs are putting on the minimum wage Hi MK1,
>Pera/Tim, I’ll have a trawl through some of the stats in that report, but I take it Pera and Tim from what you have both said so far >that the claim of our PS costs being 11th out of 15th is not corroborated so far by hard data.

I have not had much time this weekend, but I would like to confirm that you are correct in your above assumption. I have not found any hard data yet. Personally I have seen a lot of anecdotal evidence that would indicate that Irelands PS pay would be very high on most countries scales, but what I think is very important to note is that Ireland seems to be very high in pay when it comes to pay to senior civil servants (in that regards I believe that Ireland is world leaders when it comes to rewarding senior civil servants and employees in semi-state companies, but again this is based only on anecdotal evidence)

But for the civil service as a whole I am not sure where Ireland stands in pay, but at the same time, the tax burden for lower paid workers in Ireland is very low compared to other countries, so these comparisons can be very hard. So maybe the spread in salaries in PS or Ireland is higher and thus bringing down the average, but I will be on the lookut for more information, and try and compare like for like. In the first like for like test, Ireland does not come out very well (Taoseaich vs. Prime ministers rest of europe)

But as mentioned before, an interesting thing about the report, was to see the labor costs in different countries, and you can guess the amount of spin the SMEs are putting on the minimum wage

]]> By: Furrylugs http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-4#comment-54891 Furrylugs Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:58:59 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54891 Lets just be elitist Shane, we're leaving the rest of them for dead and they just can't handle the truth. McWilliams Abu Lets just be elitist Shane, we’re leaving the rest of them for dead and they just can’t handle the truth.
McWilliams Abu

]]> By: Shane Dempsey http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-4#comment-54890 Shane Dempsey Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:53:58 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54890 No offense to anyone _but_ the blog awards are a bit of a clique. You won't find another blog in the country with the quantity or quality of commentary on this one. No offense to anyone _but_ the blog awards are a bit of a clique. You won’t find another blog in the country with the quantity or quality of commentary on this one.

]]> By: Philip http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-4#comment-54889 Philip Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:52:34 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54889 Personally, I think we can do without much of the PS. Most of it never worked and someone mentioned above that it was ridiculous having an army - to which I would add, let's give anarchy a try. Seems we have been running like this for years. Be honest and officialise anarchy - a bit oxymoronic I agree, but words fail me. Anyway, it seems that this PS vs Private argument will be very academic soon. Reading Larouchepac.com's many musings, I agree that the entire world economy is "blown out". I do not subscribe to the suggested conspiracy theory as I have a much greater respect for the genius of stupidity. ECB, IMF etc cannot manage this mess. Ireland is just a side show in an organisational cockup resulting from an unregulated global financial environment. I suggest you google the many intellectuals who have bemoaned how too many of us attribute intelligence to those who handle large amounts of money. Most of the guys are thick and greedy and without scruples who believed they could never loose. Quinn and Ryan are just 2 examples of those taking major hits. There'll be lots more. And unless you happen to be an Alien with a faster than light drive in your spaceship, there is no escape. The internet/comms marvel that has linked the world and its business processes together has been our collective downfall. We need to stop acting like fleas arguing over who owns the dog and realise that the dog does not care. A bit of leadership would be most appreciated. One that does not point the finger and realises that there is something far more scary than mere money going amiss. We have a idiotic situation where the capability of the world has been crippled by our inability to exchange value information. We have to now accept the fact that banks need to be put into administration and restarted and that all debts need to be massively restructured. The latter will not happen until ECB and the FED etc. do this in a coordinated way. Until then, I think we have be forced to go local for local - simply because it's the only pragmatic thing you can do in the short term. Personally, I think we can do without much of the PS. Most of it never worked and someone mentioned above that it was ridiculous having an army – to which I would add, let’s give anarchy a try. Seems we have been running like this for years. Be honest and officialise anarchy – a bit oxymoronic I agree, but words fail me.

Anyway, it seems that this PS vs Private argument will be very academic soon. Reading Larouchepac.com’s many musings, I agree that the entire world economy is “blown out”. I do not subscribe to the suggested conspiracy theory as I have a much greater respect for the genius of stupidity. ECB, IMF etc cannot manage this mess. Ireland is just a side show in an organisational cockup resulting from an unregulated global financial environment. I suggest you google the many intellectuals who have bemoaned how too many of us attribute intelligence to those who handle large amounts of money. Most of the guys are thick and greedy and without scruples who believed they could never loose. Quinn and Ryan are just 2 examples of those taking major hits. There’ll be lots more.

And unless you happen to be an Alien with a faster than light drive in your spaceship, there is no escape.

The internet/comms marvel that has linked the world and its business processes together has been our collective downfall. We need to stop acting like fleas arguing over who owns the dog and realise that the dog does not care.

A bit of leadership would be most appreciated. One that does not point the finger and realises that there is something far more scary than mere money going amiss. We have a idiotic situation where the capability of the world has been crippled by our inability to exchange value information. We have to now accept the fact that banks need to be put into administration and restarted and that all debts need to be massively restructured. The latter will not happen until ECB and the FED etc. do this in a coordinated way. Until then, I think we have be forced to go local for local – simply because it’s the only pragmatic thing you can do in the short term.

]]> By: Shane Dempsey http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-4#comment-54888 Shane Dempsey Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:50:47 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54888 I wouldn't worry Malcolm. It turns out that the funding standard for pensions is something we can forget about in the short term. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015439.shtml When you have a national ponzi scheme there's always the hope you can inflate away the problems over some unspecified time period. Furrylugs: I watched some of the Utd game myself in the highlights. One of the things about supporting Manchester Utd is that they normally play well (or get lucky!) so you have something to console yourself after a week of scandal, pay cuts, levies etc. Sometimes the masses need a bit of opium but I think many have now realised that we can't simply wish the economy better and people need to take some kind of action..It's a positive thing. Stephen Kenny: Yep, I agree your assessment that the government is being deliberately divisive. I think we're fast approaching a time when we're going to need to start auctioning off significant amounts of mothballed property to permit the market to reach some kind of equilibrium correction. Anglo's top clients have over 500 million in debts each, apparently. It's unclear how much of these are tied into property but we all assume most of it is. It seems each new mega-loan we learn about in the press is collateralised on landbanks, unsold estates and bank shares. Not a positive picture when we're still bluffing about the actual value of real estate in Ireland. There's only so long the tax payer can foot the bill for interest holidays and/or payment default. Then there's the trend of upwards only rent reviews that crept into property leases during the boom. Around the country, commercial landlords are trying to pass on their debt issues to struggling tenants whose profits and possibly sales have evaporated. I've never been described as a socialist but there's a war going on. We need a strategy to solve this beyond assuming the banks will extend credit to everyone no matter what. I wouldn’t worry Malcolm. It turns out that the funding standard for pensions is something we can forget about in the short term. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015439.shtml
When you have a national ponzi scheme there’s always the hope you can inflate away the problems over some unspecified time period.
Furrylugs: I watched some of the Utd game myself in the highlights. One of the things about supporting Manchester Utd is that they normally play well (or get lucky!) so you have something to console yourself after a week of scandal, pay cuts, levies etc. Sometimes the masses need a bit of opium but I think many have now realised that we can’t simply wish the economy better and people need to take some kind of action..It’s a positive thing.
Stephen Kenny: Yep, I agree your assessment that the government is being deliberately divisive. I think we’re fast approaching a time when we’re going to need to start auctioning off significant amounts of mothballed property to permit the market to reach some kind of equilibrium correction. Anglo’s top clients have over 500 million in debts each, apparently. It’s unclear how much of these are tied into property but we all assume most of it is. It seems each new mega-loan we learn about in the press is collateralised on landbanks, unsold estates and bank shares. Not a positive picture when we’re still bluffing about the actual value of real estate in Ireland. There’s only so long the tax payer can foot the bill for interest holidays and/or payment default.

Then there’s the trend of upwards only rent reviews that crept into property leases during the boom. Around the country, commercial landlords are trying to pass on their debt issues to struggling tenants whose profits and possibly sales have evaporated. I’ve never been described as a socialist but there’s a war going on. We need a strategy to solve this beyond assuming the banks will extend credit to everyone no matter what.

]]> By: paddythepig http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-4#comment-54883 paddythepig Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:38:10 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54883 Tim, I think you should take some time out as well. The spin is all in your head. The simple fact is that the tax take from the commercial sector is not strong enough to sustain current Government spending. Sovereign debt is becoming much more expensive, so debt growth has to be curtailed. The private sector bloating you refer to was the Celtic Bubble ; most of it was wasted on nonsense, and was never put to productive use. You should ask your former leader Bertie about that. He was the chief sponsor of the inflationary bubble, and all the rest of his loyal FF clan, cheered along with him. FG & Labour were too spineless to question it. It was that temporary and unproductive bubble which financed benchmarking. It's over now. You should encourage a good dose of self-analysis next time ye gather at the Cumann. Paddy. Tim, I think you should take some time out as well. The spin is all in your head. The simple fact is that the tax take from the commercial sector is not strong enough to sustain current Government spending. Sovereign debt is becoming much more expensive, so debt growth has to be curtailed. The private sector bloating you refer to was the Celtic Bubble ; most of it was wasted on nonsense, and was never put to productive use.

You should ask your former leader Bertie about that. He was the chief sponsor of the inflationary bubble, and all the rest of his loyal FF clan, cheered along with him. FG & Labour were too spineless to question it. It was that temporary and unproductive bubble which financed benchmarking.

It’s over now. You should encourage a good dose of self-analysis next time ye gather at the Cumann.

Paddy.

]]> By: Colin_in_exile http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/02/18/forgive-debtors-dole-out-the-penance-and-move-on/comment-page-4#comment-54882 Colin_in_exile Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:28:09 +0000 http://1535912076#comment-54882 Tim, Beggs & co are part of the problem, not the solution. You have invested a lot of hope into the good ship Ireland, which you must now realise was misguided. That's why I guess you are angry. Overpaid Public sector workers are part of the problem, just like overpaid workers at Waterford Crystal and SR Technics are part of the problem. 200,000 foreign properties are owned by Irish people (I'm sure some taxidrivers, carpenters, glass cutters, aircraft mechanics & public servants are amongst them). People justify high wages due to the high cost of servicing a mortgage. Trouble was, people took out mortgages on hugely overpriced houses, never imagining the house could fall in value and their job could be on the line. Big mistake. People should have been marching on the streets complaining about unaffordable housing 10 years ago (I'm blue in the face from telling people this), but didn't bother. That is the root of the problem, the acquiescience into debt. Tim,

Beggs & co are part of the problem, not the solution.

You have invested a lot of hope into the good ship Ireland, which you must now realise was misguided. That’s why I guess you are angry.

Overpaid Public sector workers are part of the problem, just like overpaid workers at Waterford Crystal and SR Technics are part of the problem. 200,000 foreign properties are owned by Irish people (I’m sure some taxidrivers, carpenters, glass cutters, aircraft mechanics & public servants are amongst them).

People justify high wages due to the high cost of servicing a mortgage. Trouble was, people took out mortgages on hugely overpriced houses, never imagining the house could fall in value and their job could be on the line. Big mistake. People should have been marching on the streets complaining about unaffordable housing 10 years ago (I’m blue in the face from telling people this), but didn’t bother. That is the root of the problem, the acquiescience into debt.

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