There’s something very comforting about the idea of confession. It’s a great idea. When I was a kid I used to love the ritual of confession on a Saturday. A half dozen of us would traipse down to the empty, echoey church after ‘Football Focus’ on BBC. I remember the anxiety of waiting for my turn and counting the seconds as the penitent in front of me mumbled unspeakable acts to the priest who went through the motions. His hushed blessings were always drowned out by the giggling — that unique and uncontrollable giggling that the combination of church and six young boys can spark.
Then there was the ritual of comparing notes. “What did you get?” ” Jesus, six Hail Marys, a Hail Holy Queen and a pair of Our Fathers”. Fr Moore was always the hanging judge of the place, doling out heavy sentences for tiny misdemeanors such as Macaroon bar-thieving which everyone knew was “allowed” — and even expected at the age of 12. Anyway, the whole process of getting away with it and starting again before Mass on Sunday appealed to me as a child.
Over the years, many non-Catholic friends have slagged the very idea of confession, when they heard that all you have to do is go in and say sorry and you are absolved, but there is something wonderfully simple about this sacrament. If God can’t forgive sins what can he do? In fact, the very ability to forgive is what makes God, God. The Vatican also understands that confession offers hope. There is great energy in the second chance. Confession is crucial for continuity; absolution and forgiveness are essential for renewal and recovery.
This morning, all over Ireland, bankers are meeting their clients. At the table will be two bankers, the lad who lent the money and the lad who is trying to get it back. On the other side of the table is the sinner who has borrowed heavily and now can’t pay his debts. There might also be a liquidator there with the sinner, explaining to the bankers just how desperate the situation is. The first thing the bankers have to get their head around is that the “security” they were pledged against the loans last year isn’t worth the paper it is written on. The second thing they have to understand is that they are not getting their money back, not today, not tomorrow, not ever. The bankers have to start thinking like priests. They need to get into the forgiveness game.
Why, you might ask? Surely someone who was stupid enough to expand his or her business using borrowed money at the top of the boom doesn’t deserve forgiveness? Surely, they deserve punishment? Well in an ideal world retribution has its place, but now Ireland has to start talking about forgiveness. We need to soften our stance toward our debtors, not because of any moral requirement, but because it is the only way out of the situation.
In the meetings that are taking place all over the country as you read this, one man is terrified. There is one person at the table who is petrified of losing everything. He is not the debtor. He is the lender and at this stage, he has no place at the meeting.
Think about what is happening today. Many companies have seen their turnover halved in six months. There is no way they can pay back borrowings based on last year’s turnover metrics. But the lad who lent to them is snarling at them over the table demanding that they pay every penny. He is doing this because if they do not pay he will lose his job. Therefore, he digs his heels in. So he is thinking like a debt collector, not a priest.
If the company is told that it will have to work the next decade simply to pay back the bank, that company may simply choose to fold. What is the point in building anything now, if all the profits will simply go to the bank? Therefore, the bank loses everything, the business fails, the liquidator is called in, employees are laid off and something is destroyed. More importantly, the credit crunch gets tighter, not looser, and the prospect of more defaults increases as the negative impact of this company’s closure shunts on throughout the system.
What would a priest do in this situation? The priest’s job is to keep the flock together as much as possible and, particularly for a proselytising organisation like the Catholic Church, keeping the numbers up is the bottom line. So the priest would act like a businessman here and he would cut a deal. The banker has to think like a businessman or priest and give hope to the company or the individual. The banker has to appreciate the powerful psychology of the second chance. By cutting a deal, the banker gets something, the company survives and the debtor is energised to try again. Yes, there is a risk that the debtor just walks way laughing, but by keeping a hold over the debtor, which is firm but doesn’t strangle him, everyone gets a second chance.
The first thing the banks must do to achieve this mindset shift is get the lender out of the room. In the negotiations between the bank and the debtor, the lad who lent can’t be present. He has too much at stake and as a result of being both personally and professionally involved, he will not make the right decision. He wants all his money back so that he doesn’t look like an eejit. In so doing, the lender makes a bad situation worse.
When he is out of the room, the writedown lad can deal with the possible, not the fanciful. By forgiving, we can start again. And, counter-intuitively, the only way to get liquidity going again is to forgive debt.
There is nothing unusual about this. This is the process by which we grope our way to the bottom. We need to find the floor and the banks have to lead this operation. If they continue to behave as if nothing has changed and as if we can all pay back the billions we borrowed, we will not get out of this mess. Catholic Ireland needs to start thinking like a Catholic again. Central to this will be financial confession where the debtor shuffles into the confessional and, depending on his delinquency, is offered a penance. This way, we keep hope alive. The economic equivalent of two Hail Marys and an Our Father is doled out and we start again. The banks take the hit because it is they who lent the money in the first place. We draw a line under the problem and move on.
You won’t read this Catholic forgiveness stuff in economic textbooks but then again, there was always something very Protestant in free-market economics. Max Webber mightn’t like it, but debt forgiveness will be part and parcel of the recovery.









Jim, yes, BIS, Basle I and II is part of the underlying problems and a cause of ‘the mess”.
In the discussions re PS workers, I read that there are 9,000 that earn over 100k. Thats why I suggested the 100k ‘cap’ (which would be 100% tax rate on all salary above 100k, and for everyone and even for artists, non-residents, McManus,O’Brien, etc) – a temporary measure though. I dont have the data but I’m willing to be informed by a link to an independent report (Tim?) that compares PS costs in the EU. I would be surprised if Ireland came in at 11th. Maybe Eurostat have compiled something? I wonder is there any report that measures productivity and outpuit comparisons to the private sector.
> There is to be a public demonstration in Dublin on Saturday.
2pm Parnell Square was mentioned. I guess I need to read the other thread again. Who is organising it?
I hope it doesnt clash with any sports/lesiure activities I had planned! ;-) I’m all for public demonstrations though and I think if there is a growing demonstation that is sustained, not a once off, we could force the governments hand. However, it would need to bring the country to a standstill and have one aim in mind. It would also need to be people-based and general, NOT special interest based, like a CS union, the GRA, INTO, Impact, etc. Forget the printed banners paid for by union fees, it will be the had-written ones by kids and families that are needed. A protest on a Monday would be better, and at visible places, like the Airport, block the doors for 1 hr, the roads, the trains, the buses, the shops, etc. Close the country down for at least one hour. Then it will make international news and affect commerce. Yes, going on strike may shoot ourselves in the foot, but one bullet of 1 hr (or a day) may be worth it if it can promote change. Also, give ourselves some notice in advance to prepare. This Sat is too short notice.
> I am afraid the demonstration on Saturday could become violent. To be blunt, there might well be a splinter group that sets off to burn down the building that houses the department of finance, or even the Dail.
I dont think burning down the Dail would be of any use. It should be resepected, even if we dont agree with the decisions of those that currently sit within it.
MK1
People get involved with religion because it is a useful networking opportunity.Darwin put pay to the biblical account of how man was created.Priest’s are an irrelevance and the idea of confessing sins to a man as imperfect as oneself is complete nonsense.The damage to the economy is irreversible and I expect Ireland to sink further into the gutter in the coming years.Look @ the mess @ Nationwide-all easily avoided if we had set interest rates to suit ourselves and not the Krauts.The Eu has been a disaster for Ireland.More people out of work than ever before.
Quick question on the golden 10:
Would it not be possible to go through the share register and see which investors increased their shareholdings in the relevant period, as Quinn reduced his by 10%. Or did they do this over time, to make it difficult to see or was it obscured by CFDs changing hands and not actual shares?
Would a newspaper in Ireland doing investigate journalism based on public information such as the share register, put themselves in situation of litigation, if they described this investigation in the paper. At least it would give us some sort of idea of what went on.
Does not Ireland have a special unit of the gardai that handles economic crimes, that could raid the premises and seize documents on suspicion of fraud. Normal criminals always get their full name, picture and adress posted in the paper. What is the reason that it is different for white-collar crime, is there other legislation in that case?
REF: Jim comment @ 3.55am
Hi Jim,
I urge all serious bloggers on this excellent ideas forum to
goto jims posting now. It is the direction to go in. It is revealing
the mechanics at work behind the engineered crisis. Every
one try to see that this crisis is not an accident. Also, the contraction
of economic buoyancy we are experiencing is engineered by
the moneyed elite to bankrupt us as part of a wider unfolding
narrative in which my and your Ireland has now been
absorbed into for the first time since the 1916 Rising.
REF: Paulomahoney
Hi Paul,
I’m with tim, his articulate comments are spot on.
Ireland has reached a point whereupon we have
no choice now to these unfolding events. Ireland
is now been absorbed into a global economic
game play and its inveigled the power of gov
and its now up to regular people like us
shooting ideas passed each other to form
a grass roots counter balance and get
the word out.
REF: GOLDEN CIRCLE
Hi Bloggers,
If anyone is seeking evidence, hard evidence to support
my thesis that Ireland is been slyly absorbed into an
international financier executed endgame please look
no further than today and the gov refusal to release
golden circle names. Why hide the names. If all
is above board why hide it. And isnt it strange
politicians are prepared to loose their constituency
support to hide the names. Must be quite a story going
on there more than meets the eye more than what
we are been told. I would propose it is bringing the
real story to light is the point of all of this.
REF: WHAT ARE THE GOV HIDING IN RELATION TO THE GOLDEN CIRCLE
Hi Bloggers,
Let me propose this……….
The gov are in fact not in charge and are in fact
under instruction from another power base to
keep the names of the circle locked away under
financial regulator remit. One must concede Brian
Cowen standing in the dail last few days radiates
an air rather disconcerting. My gut instinct
is reading as follows. Here is a man who is in
possession of info he would rather not be.
I’ve been to see my banker. He looked suitably tired & drawn (which may well be a wise way for a banker to look – given the front page of today’s Irish Examiner.)
I’m glad to report that he said none of the staff in the Bank of Ireland in Douglas Cork has been threatened or abused. He also said that Mr Goggins (CEO BoI) has not communicated with staff since his dramatic articulation of his salary cut from 2.9m to about 2m. My banker pointed out that Mr Goggins’ retirement has been brought forward; he’ll go in 2 weeks. I said his terms of departure will be scrutinised as never before.
My banker’s read David McWilliams current piece. I went over it with him and felt encouraged that David’s ideas are reaching Douglas.
He asked how my business is doing. I’m glad to say it’s never been better. I have more commissions than I need. I’m no longer chasing any old work. I am picking and choosing. Perhaps this has something to do with the need for good writers. I copywrite. And I help people to set up business blogs.
We talked about how unfit many businesses are for a downturn. Anyone can sell when the streets are full of people who have so much liquidity they never ask for discount. A computer could sell to people who are not used to such ‘wealth’ – by which I mean ‘debt’.
On my personal blog, I’ve written about my experience of selling advertising in UK. The number of people who talk their own business down, and sound as if they are going out of business, thereby discouraging me from giving them my custom. I’ve talked to businesses and found owners unable to make decisions, procrastinating, refusing to accept an incredible offer of free advertising. Yes, advertising for no charge. Why? “Because we’ve spent our advertising budget.” “But this won’t cost you anything.” “Oh sorry, but I’m afraid we’ve spent our budget for this year.”
That’s a verbatim quote from several conversations I’ve had with small businesses in UK. I suspect too many Irish businesses are similarly traumatised. I hope I’m wrong.
I’ve noticed that no member of the Irish Labour Party has declared an interest on here. I imagine many senior people in the party are reading our ideas – hopefully not getting others to highlight the text for them. What prevents Ruairi Quinn from blogging? Why does he not chip in. If he doesn’t realise that many people here have the habit of being influential, he’s got a disability he could do without.
Where are the aspiring politicians who are waiting for this government to collapse? Where do they blog? How can I find out what they’re made of?
Any old fool like me can be a critic. We have that in our blood. But it’s much harder to come up with solutions. It’s risky ot put your suggestions out there. They might get shot down.
Remember this, all you readers. We have our minds, intelligence, imaginations. Our skills have not vanished overnight in this recession. As Obama said, in his inauguration speech, we still have what it takes to rebuild. It’s about time we displayed that confidence and backed it up with ideas and organisation.
The same old Labour Party, the same old Fine Gael – these don’t excite me. And I will not turn to left-wing ideology. I know the stuff that’s made of because I was once a fiercely left-wing ideologue. The way forward is not to be found by depending on Eamon Gilmore. Let Eamon come on here and contribute. He can use all the media, not just radio and TV. He can show his vulnerability and draw in other national figures too. David Begg too.
We have the right to demand they come to us. We can try to embarrass them over their silence on the blogs.
Is there no one who’s read all the comments willing to say whether my suggestion of a book is viable?
“When the heart cries for
what it has lost
the spirit laughs for
what it has found”
- a Sufi
It’s interesting to note that many supposedly hard-headed ‘economists’ portray this crisis as a morality play, yet very few of them in their venal hard heartedness consider the issue of forgiveness. Whether of debt, corruption, or just plain feckless, reckless gambling.
Forgiveness isn’t about condoning the behaviour of others, whether that’s Paddy Last who lied to buy every off-plan buy-to-rent in Plovdiv, the paedophile priests who abused the power of the confessional to exploit innocent youth, or cannibalistic bankers who abused the credulous trust of the citizenry to brink many nations to the brink of ruin.
Forgiveness is about letting go of the burden of carrying the anger and resentment which saps productive energy, prevent resolution, and hampers recovery and renewal. This applies as much to a nation as it does to an institution or an individual. Forgiveness does not preclude or invalidate the administration of Justice. It merely tempers it with mercy.
On reading this excellent article, I immediately thought of the film ‘Priest’ starring Linus Roache as a troubled cleric grappling with corruption and moral decay in inner-city East Dublin, aka: Liverpool. As good a film as it is, it is fatally flawed in that it suggests the incestuous father could blatantly betray the bonds of The Confessional, repent and return to sinning without any future consequence. Catholic teaching is not so flimsy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_(film)
The Father in this film had every right to report the incestuous Dad to the authorities as he was trying to ‘game’ the confessional system. Many non-Catholics (as well as Catholics real and lapsed) do not understand just how rigorous the Sacrament of Confession actually is. Confession cannot actually take place unless the penitent is genuine in their heart and, especially, in their future intention not to sin again.
There is nothing to stop a secularised version of this being adopted and implemented as ‘truth and reconciliation’ whilst Irish Crony Capitalism collapses. Those healthy but misguided actors in the economy who, through giddy enthusiasm, took on too much credit/debt should be tutored in the stark realities of genuine acts of financial contrition, forgiveness and rehabilitation. Those that have shamelessly gamed the system, who have already lied in the banking Confessional, should be exposed to the authorities.
The teachings of the church were never meant to provide succour and shelter to the sociopath and the sexual, sectarian or financial terrorist on either side, whether priest or penitent. In dealing with ethical transgressors, it is important to establish a hierarchy of offences. Increasingly, it looks as if the world’s bankers and economists were playing a game of Monopoly, but hadn’t read or understood the rules. So, how much blame can be reliably attributed to those who have been worshipping at the altars of false idols? They are just errant sheep who must be guided back to the flock.
Forgiveness is the hardest option. It is the grown-up option. Revenge and the blame-game are for the playground. Whist there is a need for a managed public catharsis and purgation There is no time to indulge in childish fantasies of endless show trials, tribunals and public naming, blaming and shaming. There is a real danger of a complete societal collapse in many countries. Using such a scenario as an excuse to ventilate personal and collective feuds would be the unpardonable sin.
The only issue in the allegory that David presents is the credibility of the ‘priest’ figures imbued with the power of forgiveness. Can figures of genuinely priestly sobriety and virtue be sourced from within the rotten carapace of Irish banking? If the analogy with the Catholic Church is correct, then the answer is certainly Yes. A small percentage of Catholic priests have brought shame and ridicule onto the vast majority who have never betrayed their vocations. Could it be that there are genuine Bankers who merit the trust and faith that was once so credulously vested in them by their innocent, unworldly clients?
Now, go in peace to love and serve: Love
St Andrew of Sparkhill.
20:12 20/12 2012
REF: Paulomahoney
Hi paul,
Heres a solution.
RESTORE CREDIT TO UTILITY STATUS AND RETURN IT TO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN EQUAL FOR ALL.
Should credit be controlled by
private interests. Everyone knows
getting a loan from the bank
means been assessed for whether
a person is buying into the cow towing
lick my boots game or not. Everyone
knows loans are not given to people
who play by the truth.
Andrew G Mooney,
Thank you. I’m incredibly impressed by your take on David’s piece. I join your fan club.
To everyone,
I’ve been exercised by what we can do? I have a proposal for which I seek your support:
That
(1) there be a ‘think tank’ meeting at which participants register & present position papers
(2) the proceedings be live blogged so that we can all follow and contribute our comments in response to the positions
(3) those at the meeting have time to consider the comments made by the audience, and agree to respond on the day
(4) the conversation be podcast in it’s entirety
(5) this event take place on a working day – Monday to Friday – so that it does not clash with family time
(6) a video film be made for editing into a CDRom
(7) all this task be completed by Friday 13 March 2009
(8) there be an inspiring marketing campaign to ensure every citizen in Ireland is award it’s happening and has the opportunity to get involved
I see business opportunities all over this shop. I’d be grateful if every contributor on here would respond to this proposal in future comments. I’d also be grateful for your help in improving the concept and process.
As soon as we find out whether this is a runner, we can set up a steering group to make it happen.
Paul OM: It’s a good plan but it won’t work for a while yet, as the economy still hasn’t hit rock bottom. Reading the responses here it seems to me that most people are still more worried about what might happen than what has happened. Until we reach a perigee, catharsis is impossible. Purgation is not a product of will, like the redemption of an alcoholic it only stems from a recognition that what had underpinned their previous life had been a complete failure.
Following the dose of realism from Malcolm, I have suggested previously the Ides Of March? Since the government should fall by early April, the T/Tank could be timely. Would our host Chair? Or deign to be involved?
This is a very good idea.
REF: PAULOMAHONEYS PROPOSALS
Hi Paul,
I noticed already a comment posted on telling you when
and how to commence. Count me in. Very encouraging
the idea of a meeting of minds on equal basis forging
an alternative set of solutions on the grassroots level
to counter the powers at be full scale looting and
plundering of those who refuse to cow tow and
boot lick and pervert.
Irelands eyes are opening.
The Popes children and their grandchildren have been lied to and now it seems, they know it.
The stairway to property heaven leads nowhere and faith will never be rewarded.
The words of the prophets once ignored are ringing true.
What you initially thought was a test of faith has turned out to be the real deal and it hurts.
You are now empty, desperately hoping for a revelation that will never come.
No Property or Economic God is coming to save you.
What you once valued above all other things is nothing more than a worthless reminder of your own ignorance.
And when you can accept that you can move on as an Athiest.
….but now that Ireland is Atheist… it’s going to take more than spiritual forgiveness to balance the scales.
We the Property-Economy Atheists of Ireland want Earthy Punishment to be handed out with great vengeance and furious anger to all those who convinced us to believe in the first place, starting at the top, and we don’t want to see the massacre stop until the streets run red with their blood. And when enough blood has been spilt and only the common man remains struggling to replay the massive mortgage on his home or business, perhaps then, forgiveness should be an option.
We can always make more Rich people… if we need them.
Jeasus, All this talk of redemption, forgiveness has me wondering if I should genuflect when firing up the oul browser but all this talk of homework sounds like penance to me
Just wondering…. If I say enough hail marys will that get me to heaven?…. If I recorded myself saying the hail marys and stuck the oul computer on playback would that get me to heaven? Sure then if I turned the speaker off maybe it’d still work? What!!!!! it needs to be a real person? Sure maybe then I could say a few of them for other people and get them to heaven? Sure then maybe I could outsource the oul rosary saying? Sure its not too far from picking up a mass card at a filling station…..or converting real money to debt shares to cds’s to synthetic cdo or derivatives or whatever they are called now….
Given the current financial situation I believe its time to start ‘thinking outside the box’ and start coming up with a new approach that would spare us having to listen to month after month of more doom and gloom. It has a depressing effect on the audience.
I’d like to add my tuppence worth: I thought about for a bit and compared it to a game of Monopoly where all the other guys had hotels and houses on all their streets, the only sensible thing to do is to stop the game and start a new game again with the same amount of money!
What luck to find that the original meaning of the word Jubilee is just that!
We should take a democratic vote on the matter (involve the social partners!!) and volunteer the savings of €8 billion on the basis that we get a Jubilee as well! All those in favour of a Jubilee say ‘Aye’. Right – motion duly passed.
Let’s face it we’re f_cked and all the best brains haven’t been able to come up with anything else.
Jubilee meaning: In the Hebrew Scriptures, a year of rest to be observed by the Israelites every 50th year, during which slaves were to be set free, alienated property restored to the former owners, and the lands left untilled.
The Jubilee year concluded a 50-year cycle and followed the seventh sabbatical year. After 49 years, the land reverted to its original owner from whomever had been leasing it.
The word comes from the Hebrew yobel, probably meaning a ram’s horn, the jubilee year being ushered in by the ram’s horn sounded on the tenth day of the seventh month, the Day of Atonement (Lev 25:9).Several characteristics distinguished the Jubilee year:(a) Being considered holy, it had the same agricultural restrictions as the sabbatical year when sowing, reaping or harvesting were forbidden (Lev 25:11-12). The land was to remain fallow, even though the previous year had been, by definition, a sabbatical year.(b) It was a year of “release” when people returned to their homes and property reverted to its ancestral owner. In all land sales, the price took into consideration the time remaining until the eventual return of the land to its original owner (Lev 25:15-17).A person who sold land could redeem it at any time; should he be unable to pay the redemption price, the land would nevertheless automatically revert to him at the jubilee. For other kinds of property, the rules are as follows: (1) A house within a walled city could be redeemed for period of one year; if unredeemed, it did not revert to the original owner at jubilee, but remained in the permanent possession of the purchaser. (2) A house in an unwalled city was treated as a field. (3) Houses in Levitical cities had perpetual right of redemption (Lev 25:25-34).An Israelite selling himself into bondage due to poverty must be released in the jubilee year. The slave could redeem himself earlier, the redemption price taking into consideration the time span remaining until the jubilee year (Lev 25:39-55).The books of the Prophets make no specific reference to observance or non-observance of the jubilee but there are two references to the year of release. Jeremiah tells of Zedekiah’s proclamation of freedom for all slaves (but not in the context of the jubilee year, Jer 34:8-16), and Ezekiel’s utopian vision which portrays restoration of property in the year of release (Ezek 46:17).
Many of the legal concepts of the jubilee year are familiar from ancient Near Eastern literature. The innovation of the Hebrew Bible was in assimilating these concepts into the relationship between God and the people of Israel. By virtue of the jubilee, God allows all people to begin their careers afresh with equality restored. One has no right to sell his ancestral land because “the land is mine” (Lev 25:20-23). One cannot enslave his fellow Israelite permanently, for the Children of Israel were brought out of the land of Egypt in order to be “my servants” (Lev 25:55).
Good post my friend except for this one comment;
“Let’s face it we’re f_cked and all the best brains haven’t been able to come up with anything else. ”
The best brains haven’t had a look in yet. They’re off to Oz or buried in a mountain of debt. The collective IQ of whats taking on to lead the country couldn’t figure out tactics in a junior inter county game of shove halpenny.
F
REF: SOLUTION TO ECONOMIC CONTRACTION FRAUD
Hi Bloggers,
For gods sakes give up on the theres no solutions
rubbish. There is a solution. Its understanding the
solution is what you maybe having difficulty with
not that that there is no solution. Enough already.
HERE IS THE SOLUTION……………….
Set down the objective…… I believe its
the productive interaction of people engaged
in the division of labour by economic
comparative advantage. A mutual exchange
among free people.
Set down the way to this….. I believe
is restoring CREDIT to its utility status.
CREDIT is used as a weapon. Put it
under governance as a utility and it
will be in use as a tool and achieve
above objective.
REF: RESCUE CREDIT FROM THE MONEYED ELITE SCAMMERS
Hi Bloggers,
Wresting Credit mechanism away
from the ruling corporate fascist greedy
sleazy sausaged fingered molesting hands
of the bootlicking cow towing narcissists
is the objective….
David, it’s an interesting thought, but banks don’t think like that – rescheduling yes, but absolution, definitely no. During the eighties I ran into a political storm and lost a substantial export contract. This left me in debt to an English materials supplier for a substantial sum. Instead of running for the law, this supplier parked the debt and agreed to supply new materials for a new project for which there wasn’t, at that time, a proven market – it worked and we successfully traded out of the problem – it’s no wonder that they built an empire. During that crisis the Banks showed themselves to very basic, no in-house industrial expertise and unless the IDA grant aided a project they wouldn’t touch it – cute boys, but they’re really only peasants in sharp suits and that probably explains why they’re so exposed to property at present – it’s a simple business for a simple people.
David: I don’t want to see anyone put out on the streets. However, the helicopters, planes, villas, aston martins, maseratis etc. need to go. It’s not in the public interest for the countries most indebted builders to suffer no lifestyle impairment. Their huge profits equated to huge risk which we’ll all have to pay for. On a personal note the arrogance of many of the BRM I’ve met makes it very hard to sympathise with their current predicament.
Malcolm & Wills,
Thank you very much for responding to my proposal earlier today. I’ll wait until Saturday before commenting any more on here. That might give others a chance to say whether they agree, disagree or consider it not worth responding to.
Paul, I missed that, sorry; busy day. I promise to look at it: where is it, please?
Mr. Roubini is singing the end of Anglo-American model again, and the more he makes the argument, the harder it becomes to disagree with him.
Article here : http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-monitor/255627/the_worst_economic_and_financial_crisis_since_the_great_depression_reveals_the_weaknesses_of_the_laissez_faire_anglo-saxon_model_of_capitalism
But for those without a subscription, this is the highlight of it.
“It is clear that the Anglo-Saxon model of supervision and regulation of the financial system has failed. It relied on self-regulation that, in effect, meant no regulation; on market discipline that does not exist when there is euphoria and irrational exuberance; on internal risk management models that fail because — as a former chief executive of Citi put it — when the music is playing you gotta stand up and dance.”
There is something in the UK called ‘pre-pack’ administration, where a company is effectively wound up, but the viable part of it is relaunched almost immediately as a new company, leaving the debts behind with the old company.
Hell for creditors, but it is allowed. Not good for employees, because they lose their service with the old company. But better than been unemployed.
In the spirit of david’s article, is it now time for Ireland (and possibly the rest of the world) to go into sovereign pre-pack? Start afresh, wipe the slate clean (for everybody) and move on? Or should we still try to trade our way out of this hole, when the ground is disappearing beneath us quicker than we can build a foothold?
HI Lorcan,
Isn’t that precisely what the moneyed elite
delight in. Diluting down sovereignity. If
we own anything by birthright is it not
our sovereignity.
Wills > If we own anything by our birthright is it not our sovereignity?
Am, no. We are only sovereign as long as we are willing to protect our sovereign claim against all attacks against it. It is our birthright to be Irish, but it is up to us to decide what that is.
Ain’t that the question of the Century?
Lorcan, Yes. Let’s protect it on Saturday.
“The Minister has no right to that information as a shareholder. It would undermine confidence in the bank if the Minister as a shareholder could obtain information about customers of that bank.” Mary Coughlan actually had the cheek to suggest today that revealing the 10 names would undermine confidence in the same bank where there was so little investor confidence it had to be nationalised? These kind of comments don’t exactly inspire confidence.
A45
Allowing unbalance to alienate the general populace?
Bertie Ahearne is currently in Honduras where he is to give a speech tonight to the rich and influential of that country on the successes of the Celtic Tiger, his role in creating it and what a good model it would be for Honduras to follow.
Now that is enough to make a man stoop down and bite his own B*ll*xs.
You must be having us on martino???
Will he be wearing a tux with a fez, pausing every few moments to say “Just like that”?
Hi Shane,
She has been instructed to say this
to hide the names for as long as possible.
Could she not have been instructed to provide a more intelligent and semi-believable excuse.? There is absolutely no confidence in Anglo, anywhere.
I thought Ulick McEvaddy’s radio comments about the 10 (or 25?) members of the ANIB golden circle being heroes were ludicrous. They did it out of loyalty to the bank apparently!? I’ve a few questions for these golden circle. How many offered collateral of shares in ANIB or properties which are mortgaged by ANIB? What is their current indebtedness to ANIB? What were the precise terms of the loans? Were they and/or their accountants aware why these shares were offered? If so, did anybody think the whole exercise was a bit “off”??? Lastly, how many have made significant donations to, or participated in fundraising for, the Fianna Fail party over the past few 5 years?
How heroic were their acts or was it yet another shoddy piece of business with the Irish taxpayer left to tidy up the mess? Over the past few months I’ve heard so many perversions of the term “in the national interest” that it’s being used as an excuse to mislead Irish investors and taxpayers. With confidence in the country and its institutions at an international low isn’t it about time honesty was in the national interest.
Lorcan… in my hail mary rant earlier I was a little cryptic… I’ll spell it out ….there is an analogy there but it is with the Reformation rather than confession…
Basically the monetary system started off with real value but has gotten completely out of hand with “synthetic this” and “virtual that” and “insured the other”
These are all side bets on something real, but are at such a far remove from what money is supposed to be for that they are pointless.
What was Sean Quinn doing, He was entering into a contract for difference on some shares in a bank. How in Gods name is that supposed to help anyone or do anything productive?….. Yet that was the stuff that is not taxable, while if he went out and bought a load of sheet metal or something he would have to pay VAT on it….. Or employed someone he would pay PRSI…. Yet the Revenue changes the tax laws to allow this rubbish to be done tax free. To be fair to the revenue, they were told to do it and they were just keeping in line with the rest of the ‘developed world’
Just like the pre reformation the catholic church was rotten to the core, flogging indulgences, like putting the PC on loopback saying prayers (using loopholes to break the spirit of the exercise). Today, the financial system is dwarfed by the derivatives market which is providing zero value to anyone outside the financial industry… The whole point of the church had been lost, it was now just an exercise in making money off superstition, and it seems the markets run on supersition as much as anything…
We need a financial reformation…. Reduce tax on real stuff and put tax on all these bullshit transactions, they rely on having a zero transaction cost to survive…..
We need a modern Martin Luther to nail a new version of these on Anglos front door
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses
Thank you Garry, you have restored my confidence in Irish people’s ability to tell the wood from the trees.”synthetic this”"virtual that”"bullshit transactions” that should NOT, but HAVE had a profound effect on the global and local economy.I referred to this some months back ,when I said Blair ,in order to get the”new labour” elected had to pander to the “city” in London,and as a result had unbridled an existing monster(Thatchers monetarism) in terms of Financial products and light Regulation, which in turn would integrate itself with Reganonomics et al on Wall st. to bring us to where we are today.The “HEAD” of Democracy was handed to the Markets on a fuc…g plate and whats needed now is to to have the “head” put back on the body politic where it belongs.With the “head” missing,was it any wonder that people felt alienated and dislocated from their own communities and Countries and the diet of individualism,consumerism,credit.cute hoorism,bubbles etc would provide only superficial compensation for a meaningfull,happy,and worthwhile life.
jim, You are correct, I think. Thatcher said, “There is no such thing as society”, …. she was WRONG!
There is. Let’s bring it back to the fore-front.
Hi Garry,
Spot on garry on the true function of money.
Its getting the word out in Ireland on this
info that will win out on the credit mechanism
been used against us as a weapon.
wills, Thank you for your posts – they are very helpful. Your posts indicate to me that you know much more than you are saying. Your posts seem (to me) to be like “short division” and, for those who are trying to learn, a “long-division” version might help, if you have the time to do it.
Could you, please, explain “ladybird” style, what you believe we all need to know?
Pretend that you are the teacher and I am the pupil; start at the beginning; make it simple for me?
Thanks.
Mk1, Apologies for my tardiness in reverting to you (one of those days when things were not just “in a heap”, they were in 10 heaps!)
The independent statistics you seek are very difficult to find, but you can piece together alot of information from the various departmental sites. On a pan-European basis, you can extrapolate the figures from this:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-CD-07-001/EN/KS-CD-07-001-EN.PDF
I warn you, it is MIND-NUMBING stuff for the most part, and will take you several hours to plough through it all, but it will show how our public sector is lean and productive, relative to other EU countries.
The numbers and relativities are constantly in flux, but the general pattern is discernable always: Ireland tends to invest less in the education of its young people than almost all other countries; Ireland’s public service is smaller than most other countries; our public sector is more productive than most others; the profits-up-wages-down agenda is VERY successful in Ireland, etc..
I consider that the media “spin” is helping the government to lie to us; take this quote from tonight’s Primetime special, for example:
“The Department of Education has a hard job, finding cuts……..”. So, it’s not a hard job for parents and children, it is a hard job for the DES? There’s “spin” for you.
I have every faith in the people who will protest on Saturday to remain peaceful. I am sufficiently confident of this, that I have volunteered for duty on that day and will be in the “front-line”, as it were, and a “target” with my luminous yellow vest on.
Let’s see everyone, from ALL sectors of the community there! Time to stand up and be COUNTED.
I will be there.
My Lost Generation, Good man! As Furrylugs has said: “Talk is cheap”; time is both of the essence and at a premium. We need people to realise that time invested in trying to convince OUR own government to do what WE want is time well spent.
It IS OUR government – not the bankers’ government; Let’s remind them of that. 100,000 people is not enough – that number was ignored on a protest against “rendition flights” into Shannon.
More than that MUST turn up on Saturday, or the people will be ignored by their government again.
People, the power is yours – MAKE the EFFORT.
BTW, your “screen name” has disturbed me, somewhat, since I first saw it here. My parent emigrated from Ireland in the mid-late ’60s. We all returned from America in 1976. I think that makes me a member of the “saved generation”. I can only imagine what it must have been like for them to leave and for their families to watch them leave, not knowing if they would ever come back.
I have two children, aged 8 and 10 – if they have to leave, it will kill me.
That’s why I am here, trying to learn and prevent that from happening.
I CANNOT face another “lost generation”.
Let’s try to make it better?
Tim,
I’d love to go for a pint or two with you on one side and Frank McCourt on the otherside, debating the pros and cons of Irish emigrating to USA and returning to Ireland. Frank said it was the biggest mistake his family ever made.
@Tim….
Your dead right Tim, we need more than 100K people to show up on Saturday and we also need to not just turn up and go away, we need a permanent protest until this is sorted out, like they had in The Phillpines and in Iceland recently, where the country downs tools and people pick a location and stay there en-masse until their voices are heard.
I’m all with the positive thrust of this thread, but there is no point in us all trying to work harder and smarter as long as we are being governed by a corrupt and rotten government. I’ll put my 4 shoulders to the national wheel, but not as long as this government are in office.
We need to drill right down to the foundations on this one, and before we start rebuilding our economy and trying to start doing the right things in respect of what is the common good, we need to make sure we have gotten rid of the corruption that has led to us being in this situation. We should not be here, yes, due to a worldwide recession, things should have slowed down a bit, but 2K people a day losing their jobs??? We simply should not be here but we are here due to a corrupt government, make no mistake about it.
Massively overpriced property that has driven prices up EVERYWHERE in the economy and made us uncompetitive, a lack of a real work-driven economy, instead a deliberate government strategy that relied on a monetary illusion to continue, based on flipping properties, for generating revenue to run the country???
I suggest that anyone who attends the protest in town this Saturday should take a leaf out of the book of the Iraqi protestor who threw his shoes at Bush at a press conference. We should all bring a spare pair of old shoes and leave them at the gates of Leinster House.
DarraghD, great idea, with the shoes. Peaceful, yet powerful statement. We might all get done for littering, but I will take the hit.
It’s time for “people-power”.
We have sat down and watched the telly for too long. Don’t shout at “the box” anymore. Come to the march on Saturday, instead.
Be COUNTED.
Private and public sector WORKERS TOGETHER, gardai together with us – the boys and girls in blue will be SUPPORTING us, not just controlling us.
The teachers who look after, mind AND teach our children will be there; the nurses who MIND US and our loved ones when we are ill will be there.
Unless you are working to support your family on Saturday, I say, SHOW UP! Be counted (’cause, they will count and try to say that only 50,000 could be bothered turning up, so it’s ok, we needn’t change anything).
We MUST make our voice heard, by having an UNPRECEDENTED number of people there.
If we do not, ……. THEN, … it will be time to despair. “It’s not time to worry yet” (Atticus, in Harper Lee’s “To Kill a Mockingbird”) – it’s time to ACT.
Tim, Folks, Lads, Lasses,
All it should take is what Ghandi did. He cleaned out the greatest Empire from his country by one master event.
So simple and non violent. No-one lost out.
All everyone did was to sit down and stop work for one hour.
It is honestly that simple.
Just stop and say no. No more. Enough is enough.
And this time the SME employers would come out too. No-one gets sacked because we’re all in the same boat. And just before you suspend labour, only for one hour, post a letter to your local TD. Two words. No More.
Naid ona Naid a Poic. Nothing from nothing is nothing.
I’ll be like Clinton on Sunday, flying overhead in Furrylugs 1 but I’ll pull the chain at the appropriate moment.
E&OE
Furrylugs, It is on Saturday!
Please don’t pull the chain on Sunday!
You might get me Ma, on the way home from mass!
Given the current situation, I’m sure she’d understand.
I’m “pot committed” to this one. I’m starting to blame the Irish people now for tolerating this situation for far too long.
I said it earlier, it’s time to call time on all this messing lads and sort it out for once and for all… I’m going to this protest on Saturday and by Jesus Christ will I make sure that my voice is heard by this rotten shower of absolute wasters in Leinster House. I’m not letting these people take the p*ss out of me anymore, I’ve had enough now and I’m on the streets and I’m staying there until I see the end of this government… I genuinely believe that this government now pose the greatest threat to the future economic interests of our state than any previous entity since it’s foundation.
“There May Be Times When We Are Powerless To Prevent Injustice, But There Must NEVER Be A Time When We Fail To Protest”
Elie Wiesel
I agree with David Mc W that we need to get over this at some stage and start the renewal of our economy and start to bring together positive and joined up thinking to jump start our economic engines again, but we have to don the white decontamination suits first and get stuck into some unpleasant fumigating, and rid ourselves of the overgrown cockroaches that have colonisied the confession boxes… I’m afraid this mission is beyond the resources of Rentokil, it’ll take hundreds of thousands of decent honourable Irish people to fumigate this confessional…
Ah, Folks, …….
Where to begin?
Many have suggested that the current government will fall; it might; but not yet and not in April, Furrylugs, if they can help it.
Legislation dictates that they cannot claim their ministerial pension until they have spent 2.5 years in office.
That puts it at about the end of October, I reckon.
The so-called “opposition” parties know this, and there is general agreement among all of them, that they will not interfere with that.
I cannot see the government ending before the ministers qualify for their pensions. But I may be wrong. Something MUCH bigger than, simply screwing the little people, would have to happen to make the TDs break that little “pact”.
Odds on the field Tim.
Cowen is a dead man walking. We’ve got a sovereign downgrade imminent, his backbenchers can’t handle pressure and the country is a tinderbox.
My friend, the country doesn’t give a rats arse about their pension.
The country is trying to keep the fridge full.
Bottom line because thats where we are.
Tim, while you’re banging your saucepan off the pavement, take a look around at your fellow saucepan bashers. Some of them will be the real deal, the ‘little guy’ trying to get by ; who could blame those people for being upset. Many of them will have been willing participants in the Celtic flop though, having had a flutter on the old property and share ponzi scheme in the hope of easy money, and will be shouting not for the good of the country, but they enjoy shouting, and they want to save their own skins. It takes all sorts.
Beware the guy standing beside you.
Anyways, if you really let rip, and burn a scarecrow with a poster of Biffo on the face, I’ll be really impressed.
Then ring up Brian. The Minister has news for you. The cuts have only started. He’s scratching his head, wondering how to make 3.5 billion of cuts next year without his inner circle turning on him. Tell him about your masterplan to curb the deflation by increasing public sector pay, and assess his reaction.
Paddy
The only problem with the march is that it is about 10 years too late.
Why weren’t people marching on the streets about unaffordable housing back then?
Thatcher is right after all, there is no such thing as society, its all about me, me, me.
Ask yourself, do you really really care about your neighbour’s unemployment?
This is the Anglo-American model we have adopted with glee, Tom Wolf wrote about this in the 70′s. Everyone is suddenly up in arms, now that the taps have been turned off, but, anyone who was not blinded by all the ‘bling’, could see this coming, did people listen, did they feck.
Mystical Moments a ‘la Ghandi –
Time now is a time to be rational , a time to build
on, a time of hope and a time of change .
Time is NOW .
Lets make this Time on Saturday to be Our Own for soon we may never have time
anymore .
An Open Letter to Tim
Dear Tim,
I’m writing this to you because in my mind you are the archetypal decent Fianna Fail person. You have been cruelly betrayed, and, to make it worse, the betrayal was carried out under your eyes. You have been deceived over more than 20 years. And you still have enough of a moral sense to put country before party.
You are getting ready to march. You are ready for a revolution, though you might not call it by that name. In your history you have drawn inspiration from heroes who were prepared to take action in the face of overwhelming odds. You come from a long line of idealists.
I write to you with hope. I take to this laptop in the hope that you will hold fast to the ideals that inspired you to join public life for the sake of your children and their grandchildren – for the sake of all future generations of people who want to live in Ireland.
The basic situation is plain. We have no financial regulator. We have never had any financial regulator. We have had no central bank, no bank overseeing the health and honesty of the banks. We have no organ of state to protect the citizen’s interests.
This you already know.
But the situation is far worse. The Fianna Fail party has been the most impressive and successful political party in the the history of Ireland. It has been taken over from within by people who have not been motivated by the citizen’s interest. It has been taken over by stealth, so totally taken over that it is hard to see when the takeover started. What is clear is that the takeover is total. The only part of the Fianna Fail party that is untainted by this dreadful act is the ordinary member like yourself – who has never gained improperly from Fianna Fail’s political success.
Unfortunately Fianna Fail has been undermined fatally. As moral force it is dead in the water. There are people saying that Fianna Fail will never win another election.
I call on you now to ‘cross the floor of the house’ and join Fine Gael. I ask you to go against your political instincts and history. I am not asking you to take sides in the civil war that was. This is not Collins versus Dev. This is today, and the future of your children’s chance to live in an Ireland of which you can easily be proud.
I don’t ask you to join any Fine Gael you have ever known.
I have an open letter here for Enda Kenny and this is what it says…
Dear Enda,
Your hour has come. The Irish people has nowhere else to turn but your party and leadership. Fine Gael is big and has some experience of government. You have some idea of how difficult it is to govern. I call on you now to take over the government.
Yes, I mean take over governing the country. I call on you to lead and prove yourself worthy to be thought of in the same breath as the great Irish leaders of yesteryear.
There is going to be a huge expression of hope and anger on Saturday’s march. There will be people on the street who are beside themselves with frustration and confusion. They are crying out for leadership. They have grown up without any decent leadership.
Now is the time for you to do something extraordinary for the sake of future generations. You need to lead all your TDs in a march from the Dail to the GPO. You need to stand there on hallowed ground and nail your colours to the mast. You need to take over through a peaceful revolution, and drive Mr Cowen and his supporters out of office in a peaceful coup d’etat. Otherwise you subject us to years of the same from the current ruling class.
This is an extraordinary ask. You can grasp the symbolism. Even if you simply march to the GPO with all your TDs by your side, that will be enough because the power of the people will compel Mr Cowen to resign. He and his group have so disgraced themselves that they are now ready to break. They won’t hold their nerve after Saturday – if you provide the people with what the people need : hope.
If you continued playing the political game, allowing the government to control how parliamentary time is used, you would be fiddling while Ireland burns. I call on you to prevent Ireland degenerating into mass confusion and helpless violence. You need to act for the sake of public order. You must be horrified to see Gardai and Soldiers getting ready to march on Saturday.
Mr Enda Kenny, the people of Mayo, Cork, Dublin – all our country- need you to be brave and take a risk.
But you will not succeed alone. You need David Begg and the Labour Party on you side. You need to invite Eamon Gilmore to march with you and form a government of national unity. The workers are stakeholders. Our wealth and economy is the product of the collective effort of all social classes. No one has more interest in the future than Irish workers.
The workers are crying out for equity. They are ready to fight for Ireland, to rebuild the economy on a sound basis.
There is a coalition of interests waiting for you to lead them. Step up or step aside.
Tim,
I’m asking you to circulate this open letter to all your Fianna Fail colleagues. Circulate it too to your Fine Gael contacts, and Labour too. Turn it into your manifesto. It may be imperfectly written in a time of passionate care for all that we hold dear. Nothing is perfect but I ask you to treat this as fit for purpose.
Take over the organs of state and use them for the people rather than against us.
Stop the immoral and duplicitous hegemony of one interest group
Put our country back where it’s meant to be
Give us open government
Please stop this incitement. I was let go this month as a direct result of what has happened. I have been fortunate to have worked all my life and I know I will again in time. No one is to blame. We are all in this together, which includes our government, elected politicians, business leaders, civil service, social partners, etc. We need to work together now.
Look, how on earth can you say that “no one is to blame”. There is a cause to what is happening now. Yes the world is in recession, but there is a reason why we are imminetely going to be bankrupt as a country…
We elected representatives to run this country in a manner that is consistent with the common good and we paid them hansomely to do this. This wasn’t rocket science or brain surgery, all we asked them to do was run the country in a way that people can gain employment and get a house to start a family in and better themselves if they so wish and live in peace. This was a simple brief and they have made a complete and utter balls of the task. They allowed vested interest groups to dictate the whole direction of Irish economic policy and by doing so have compromised the integrity of every family living in the state.
It’s not like we were paying them f*ck all to run the country and they succumbed to corruption due to their own personal economic need. This was about pure unbridled greed and rampant ego’s.
So I’m saying I’VE HAD ENOUGH AND I WANT YOU OUT, OUT, OUT…..
sorry for your trouble but it is precisely because you were let go that you need to wake up and ask why? we are being run into the ground by a corrupt rabble, you can’t work with these people, they need to be toppled democratically, take yourself down to the march tomorrow, let out your anger and frustations, speak to people, learn about the reality around you and the solutions on the table other than FF self serving dribble, now is your time, the old game of charades around the social partnership table is dead, you must adapt to this new reality, we are living in a new era, it takes a bit of foresight to realise it.
And please remember, this is not public versus private employee, this is not carpenter versus low to middle ranking civil servant, we are all in this together, and together we can change the political landscape overnight. Time for FF to go and go now.
Paul, I will circulate it. Thank you. I am meeting a FG friend this weekend and we will go through it, word-for-word. I will bring it to my FF meeting next week.
Does anyone believe Cowen,and Lenihan when they continue to profess that they don’t know the names of the “10 Golden Circle”.
Even if its true that they don’t, surely its their duty to find out.
Hi Furrylugs,
Furrylugs > You say “WE” must do this that and the other. Bear with me. This is not an attack. “WE” infers a functioning system of democratic process or some semblance of due procedure. If we were reading about Irelands travails and cut, copied and pasted Ireland for Zimbabwe, it would be unbelievable. But I think thats where we are excluding a fall of government or the Gardai firing tear gas at disposessed people. It’s a reply but maybe not what you expected.
I agree that we dont have a proper functional democratic system nor are we ‘squeaky clean’ on the corruption index. Many call it the Irish way. It is culturally ‘in-bred’, alas.
I guess when I write ‘we should’ what I actually mean is ‘the country should’. But that doesnt mean that the country has the execution capability, the knowledge, the foresight, the capacity to do so …. Some of the solutions and steps that we need to take may not be in ‘our’ (the country’s) capability to do so.
For example, it might be wise at this stage to change our government. Yet, depending on the actions taken by people in power, voters, families, workers, media, etc, it may or may not come to pass in the timely manner that would be more efficient in the long run.
And Furry, I agree with the 1-hr stoppage, and suggested it as well somewhere. “We” need a complete country-wide stoppage/protest, BUT we do need an aim behind it. Is it to change the government?
MK1
ps: Tim, saw your reply, will reply later, but for now I dont have the time to read that 500+ page doc from eurostat, did u spot any pertinent info that you could summarise?
I would cautiously suggest a one hour stoppage to send the rocket. Focus the minds. A democratic wake up call. Beyond that with no tangible response lies Armageddon.
Many thanks for the considered reply.
MK1: I had a brief look at it last night. It contains a lot of interesting information (thanks for posting the link Tim) Unfortunately in some cases there was missing information in some of the graphs, so it was not that easy to make a quick comparision (alhtough you did warn us Tim ;))
Of the things that I found interesting Irish numbers in several of the graphs was missing, not sure why, Maybe Ireland gathers statistics on a different scale? As can be seen in figure 1.23 Earnings in industry and services (average gross annual earnings of full-time
employees in enterprises with 10 or more employees), 2005. where ireland is not represented, but it is interesting to see the comparisons, where it would seem that several countries have a very high cost base. this can also be seen in figure 1.29, which shows the labour costs pr hour. It would seem that most of the countries that I assume Ireland would want to compare themselves with has a cost of 27-31 euro an hour. So again I feel the attacks on the minimun wage are completely unreasonable
Another interesting graph, was how the cost of labour was distrubuted between wages, PRSI (paid by employer) and other costs. Again the norm for the countries was around 70% as actual wage costs, the rest in the 2 other categories. from my understanding these other costs of employment are lower in Ireland
The amount spent on education as a percentage of GDP (including public and private spend) is for ireland 4.5% and 5.3% as a whole for the Euro area. So I think it is important to keep in mind that Ireland has had a much higher growth on GDP than the Euro area in the last ten years, So in that sense they have increased education spend a lot, so the % might be misleading. (Although I personally feel that even more money could go into education) I did not have time to look at all the other graphs, but considering that ireland has very young population I would tend to agree with TIm that on that sector Ireland seems to get a lot out of their money compared to other countries.
But an interesting report, I am sure it would contain enough research for a lot of phds:)
Pera, you spent alot of time going through the document – I know, because you could not have arrived at your conclusions without considerable “digging”.
Thank you for your effort and posting your conclusions. I am usually dismissed for saying such things because many people seem to have fallen victim to the “spin” and downright lies that IBEC, our government and the media use to squeeze more out of all workers and to distract us from what they are doing by pitting the private sector worker and the public sector workers against eachother.
I would not call any of them conclusions yet, just a few observations, but hopefully I will have some more time this weekend
REF: BLAMING THE GOV IS A DISTRACTION/DIVERSION
Hi Bloggers,
The gov is an instrument of power. Discussion on
Occupants of these seats of power and their performance
is a diversion, if you want to get to the nub
of what the hell is unfolding before you in
the media, market place, community locally
and internationally expending energy on
corrupted politicians is not going to do
it for you. Surely its obvious to all sober members
of the gov and the dail are under persuasion
and influence from other quarters. Let me
give you an example up to date,. The london investment
banking assoc. rings the Irish Stock exchange
to exert pressure on the minister of finance to stall
ball on tax on contracts of difference. Ladies and
gentlemen there is your signposting to where
you ought to be focusing on in the next step
in wraping minds around the nature of the
unfolding events we are all now caught up in
whether we like it or not, and to be honest
i would rather be busy with other things than
trying to get the word out on this thing. I’ve
picked this blog site to do it no other, for it was
David first to go on the Public record in 2006
and attempt to blow the whistle on a story
much bigger in scope than we think.
REF: REQUEST BY TIM@ FEB19 11.51PM
Hi Bloggers,
For what its worth im going to use this blog
site in utter courtesy to David and all bloggers
and in deference to davids articles and outline
over a period of time information/intelligence
on what is going on all around us. My postings
are not subjective ponderings they will be
empirical based observations extremely well
thought out over a period of 30 years. I’m
not goin to qualify my postings again from
this point onwards because to counte
respond to misunderstood emotion there
is no time. I am going to use this one
blog site to post what i deduce through
empirical elementary deduction as to
what Ireland now finds itself caught up
in the middle of. I would recommend you
all pass the word out to anyone who is
in wanting for clear concise info to keep
a close eye on this website on this posting
addition thanks to David Mcwilliams to whom
i have quite a degree of regard for.
Hi Bloggers,
THE IRISH BANKING SYSTEM SERVES AS A CITY OF LONDON OFF-SHORE BANKING CENTER
Above is the direction to go in.
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/30/american-crisis-european-anglo-dutch-banking-system-collapse.html
Lichtenstein on the Liffey is how the Guardian referred to it I believe…………..
I am saving this entire blog for posterity and for myself. It is easily one of the most gem packed I have read to date.
I would like to see a simple citizen charter to one another. (not as subtle as a love thy neighbour as thyself) One that is simple and requires memorisation before you are allowed to vote. Since Ireland became all atheistic over the last 20 years or so, I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater. We lost that sense of duty to the state and one another. We lost nationhood. We exchanged God for Bling.
I fully agree with Malcolm McClure that the time for getting everyone’s attention is still some time away as the penny has not quite dropped. Still, preparation can never be soon enough. So count me in PO’M
penny is dropping, takes time, but realisation is dawning on people about just how badly our affairs have been managed, history is replete with examples of slow burners, change has started, new political landscape on the way.
This current financial mess and the response the government is doing is showing the World that we are incapable of governing/rulling ourselves and we need to be taken over by another country.
The sooner the better we all vote YES for the Lisbon treaty the sooner we can get rid of this Government and we can all rejoice in never having to worry about running the country again as Germany can look after that for us.
this government will fall within a month, pressure is too much.
Hi Bloggers,
Below, you will find the calvary coming over the hill. First signs
of the turning of the tide and flushing out the contagion
thats infected our society. The First domino…….
http://uk.reuters.com/article/stocksAndSharesNews/idUKLNE51I00M20090220
I hear you Wills, and as the “mediator” said in a previous post on a different thread:
The beginnings of the modern banking system go back to when a group of merchants (some people say freemasons)
started the bank of england and were allowed to begin inventing money out of thin air (ie lending money they didn’t have and earning interest on it)
Since then this alchemy has moved the world in the direction that bankers (central) have wanted. Central banks operate independently from
the sovereign power hence they are sovereign unto themselves. Two American presidents tried to wrest control of the money creation process
from the Federal Reserve and failed. Their names? Abraham Lincoln and JFK… Congressman Ron Paul advocates the same but he is a lonely voice
in the crowd.
I think that many of the posters in this blog are looking at the micro and ignoring the macro which has been hiding in the open. This financial crisis has been engineered
in my opinion. When things get really bad people will look to a new system (NWO) and will happily give up their sovereignty if they are ina crisis situation.
Ireland is just a very small part of this equation but whats happening to us will be in line with what happens elsewhere. The British are a key holdout from the system but no country will be allowed to continue on its own. Watch this unfold…
So what can we do.. our current govt have most definitely not helped matters much and need to be dealt with.. In the words of my dearest friend:
There must be some kind of way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
Theres too much confusion
I cant get no relief
Businessman they drink my wine
Plow men dig my earth
None will level on the line
Nobody of it is worth………………………………I too am tired of the “confusion” but I know that we are the politic we can turn this around with enough intelligent minds and people of integrity… I love this forum I only wish there was a PM functionality on this site (Private Mail) so we could really get something moving..
brighteyes,
“I think that many of the posters in this blog are looking at the micro and ignoring the macro which has been hiding in the open.”
Nothing is “ignored”..
>TIM
Hi Tim,
As I said I will be there.
The generation I am talking about is from 25 to 35. I took that name about a year and half ago when people in that age bracket could not afford much and buying an house was everything, remember, ‘get on the property ladder’. Unfortunately at the time we could not afford to buy something to suit our sensible standards. In hindsight we did well.
However we now have a 2/3 bedroom townhouse in a village in the south of France that cost 90 000 euro. It has not devaluated much either. I am mentioning this because once you blamed me for starting a comment with writing ‘I have been in France for the past 2 weeks’… I agree it is a luxury but we rent in Ireland.
To brighten up the mood. I am renting this townhouse for 250 a week! If you like beautiful sceneries, red wine, hiking, cycling, canoeing + the beach is 40 mns away, send me an email at cyrlaurens@gmail.com and I will send you an attachment with all the information about the area and the house. It is located in St Chinian (Herault)!
Lost Generation, for all the people who are stuck with mortgages they will soon be unable to repay, for all the graduate who came, come and will come out of college with no place to go, for the golden opportunity that was given to Ireland to put the country in a respectable place in Europe and never see these worrying times come back.
I guess, Tim, it is more wasted than Lost. At least when you are lost, you could find your way again.
I will be there. I have always believed in demonstrating from the start but we really need to SCARE the shite out of them.
A question for everyone, not to take too seriously though;
‘What would you do or say or ask if you met the two Brians with a few of your mates in a very dark alley in Dublin?….’
or ‘who would you like to meet in that dark alley?’ (must be relevant to the political or economic situation)
My Lost Generation, Now, I think, I understand a little better. Thank you. I would still relish the discussion over pints that was suggested between me and Frank McCourt, though. You could sell tickets to that one.
Ireland has been good to me; could I have lived, happily, in New York, forever? Yes, of course.
Can I move back, any time I want to? Yes.
Would I like to? No.
Why?
The people.
People I have met in Ireland have a certain “quality” to them, that I cannot find in the US (granted, I have only been in New York, Virginia and Washington DC).
I will say this, though: When I arrived, as a child of nine years, in this country, I was shocked. It was 1976 and there were many homes that still did not, even, have a toilet. Owning a half-decent car was for rich people only. We had to pay the ESB for heating our water and the P&T charged us for EVERYTHING.
I had just left my home, my friends and my world. In 1976, in New York, everyone had free hot water, included in their rent and phoning someone in your own area code was free. We had eleven rooms and a TV in each room, with thirteen channells free to air on every one. Bus and subway went EVERYWHERE – both – not “either-or”. And the buses ran their route every 15 mins (my Dad was a bus driver and a “super”).
All cars had electric windows, ABS, seat belts, air conditioning, etc..
I could go on, but I will not; This country has still not caught up with the standard of living in New York, 40 years ago. Look at Willie Birmingham’s book, “Alone”.
We have, on this Island, been “fooled”.
This was, definitely, a “Third-world country”, when I arrived here; It was, as Bob Geldoff said, a “bananna republic” in 1979. It has not changed much.
How many of you have gone on holidays to spain in recent years and suffered without Air-con? Why did you accept it? Something that the poorest-of-the-poor had in New York 40 years ago?
Don’t accept it, anymore.
The people, the people, the people; ….. the Irish peope are the reason I am still here, the reason I want my two children to be raised here: Say what you like, (depending on the “spin” you have swallowed) the teachers in this country are the BEST in the world and my kids deserve the best. Maybe it IS because of the “post-colonial-popular-consciousness” and the “hedge-school” mentality, whereby, Irish teachers consider education so important, that they will teach the kids, even if you threaten them with DEATH not to.
That’s why.
Lads if I lose my job or when I lose my job, I will start a HUNGERSTRIKE in front of the government buildings and attract some attention from the media in Ireland and Europe and make that government feel like shit. I
I will count on all of you to write on banners and pieces of cardboard all the very valuable points you have been making for so long.
would support this, but think there are more effective ways of protest………but i commend your courage, this spirit will turn the ship.
I will help, I promise.
Drum roll ……………Sir. Anthony please arise……………
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123509164935828505.html
This one is for Furry, courtesy of ft/alphaville.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853
Heh Heh.
Subtle my friend.