Turn crisis into opportunity

February 15, 2009


It is time to think about solutions. How are we going to get out of this mess and how are we going to keep the maximum number of people in work over the course of the next three years? More importantly, how can we create jobs, not just by keeping people in work who might not be affordable, but by getting the best out of all of us?

Such questions demand home-grown initiatives, in order to fix home-grown problems. There is no point playing the conservative game and waiting for the global economy to pick up. Either it picks up or it doesn’t. Equally, we should stop trying to be respectable members of a monetary union dominated by ‘‘balanced budget fundamentalists’’ when we are faced with an economy which is contracting by the hour due to a lack of demand.

The Great Depression was caused by trying to balance the books in the face of debt deflation. Listening to mainstream economic discourse in Ireland, it looks as if we are going to repeat the mistakes of history. This is social vandalism. If we actively accelerate the slump by slashing and cutting simply to balance the books, we will never be forgiven.

The key to rebalancing this country’s economy is to keep wages flat across the board and confine spending as much as possible on public infrastructure. To use the Americanism, we need to get a ‘‘huge bang for our buck’’. This comes from getting the same thing next year at half the price it would have cost you two years ago – be that a railway, a bus corridor or a motorway. Crucially, we have to avoid the mantra of increased taxes to balance the books. This canard, to which many economists amazingly subscribe, mistakes economics for accountancy. They are not the same.

If Ireland continues to make massive cuts in public spending, the country will simply contract further. No economy has ever deflated its way to growth, and the most important thing to bear in mind is that companies closed due to lack of demand do not reopen when times are better. Therefore, the most crucial objective must be to try to preserve employment.

Jobs are crucial because, long after the bond markets have had a hissy fit and the respectable financial press has forgotten its indignant editorials, the generational impact of long-term unemployment will be felt. The human costs of unemployment and idleness are family breakdown, mental illness, depression and crime. These costs go way beyond the financial costs of less taxes and higher spending.

This weekend, Ireland is home to thousands of wounded people who have been told that they are redundant. Their self worth has been reduced to a severance cheque, a squeeze of the shoulder and an insincere pep talk about the needs of the company. These are real people and they are humiliated and frightened. In many cases, they are in the middle of their careers, they have huge experience, contacts and networks. Yet they are being told that they won’t work again because they are too expensive or they are ‘‘overqualified for the job’’.

Many can’t face – nor do they have the energy to entertain – the enormous effort it takes to start again on their own. Their confidence is shot. Equally, many will hoard their savings and won’t have the courage to throw their precious ‘‘nest-egg’’ into a new venture. They will shrink from risk and become the walking casualties of the depression. We will see these middle aged zombies, the ‘‘might have beens’’ walking around our towns or glued to afternoon TV, wasting away. Yet they have so much to offer.

If only we could find away of using their years of experience constructively.

At the other end of the generational scale, we have thousands of young people ambitious graduates and school leavers who will not find a job. This is the generation of Irish people who have nothing to fear; they have buckets of energy and can set up on their own, creating businesses from ideas. But how will they commercialise this raw enthusiasm? What they have in energy, they lack in experience. What they have in vision, they lack in contacts, and what they have in stamina and technological savvy, they lack in business nous and sales smarts. This is where the older people come in. Would it be possible to fuse together the two generations, the recently redundant middle-aged and the hugely robust twenty somethings?

Argentina suffered a dreadful depression in 2001/2.Unemployment skyrocketed and, with no jobs around, young Argentinians were forced to set up their own small businesses to survive. These small businesses sprang up all over the place and, because the local economy was in tatters, the companies had to export to survive. (Precisely the same will be the case in Ireland.) But they didn’t know where to start. How could they? For most, this was their first venture. They knew nothing about marketing or banking and neither did they have contacts.

At the same time, thousands of middle-aged executives with tens of thousands of years’ experience were being laid off every day. They were destined for the scrap heap.

At the time, an economist friend of mine was brought in to be the chief of cabinet of the Ministry of Finance in Argentina. He told me he spent nights with his head in his hands trying to figure out what to do when everyone was telling him it was over for the country.

Then he came up with the idea of a state-sponsored ‘‘match-making’’ service to match ‘‘young companies with old heads’’. To do this, the Argentinian finance ministry used a website which matched old experience with young companies. The new companies interviewed the old, recently-redundant executives. The state, instead of paying benefit, paid a much reduced salary to the older guys who got some small equity in the new companies.

The scheme worked amazingly well. Thousands of companies were set up and thousands of people went back to work.

Most crucially, the older heads contributed enormously to the success of the new companies with their knowledge and experience. Their contacts with international counterparts and multinational systems of management and production were invaluable.

Yet, had it not been for this initiative, this invaluable resource would have been buried between the ears of thousands of people, never to be used productively again.

Many middle-aged executives even went back to work for nothing and were reinvigorated. They acted as custodians for the new companies that dragged Argentina out of the depression. In addition, thousands of companies were saved from making the elementary mistakes that tend to scupper start-ups. These mistakes can be more easily sussed by someone who has been in business for years.

Crucially, the older heads were not consultants. They worked for the new companies. If the relationship was working, after five months the new companies started to pay their wages in full and the state disappeared, having done its match-making job.

This is a perfect example of how a simple idea can translate into a fantastic outcome and of how using our noggins in the depression can transform a crisis into an opportunity. The key now for all of us is not to despair, but rather to focus on getting out of our mess.

If you want to discover more about this initiative see www.experienciapyme.mp.gba.gov.ar – it’s in Spanish, but you’ll get the drift.




Upload a Gravatar to include a profile picture with your comment.
214 Comments. Most recent comments first.
  1. Tim says:

    Lorcan,

    “Aren’t they paid from the public purse now too, or at least their pay packets exist because of the public purse? Hardly private sector anymore!”

    So, join the dots and cap the bank salaries at 100k as well; and divert anything over that through taxation.

    MK1′s idea works.

    • Lorcan says:

      That was my point really.

      I was just raising the issue of the government using nonconventional methods to control private sector pay.

      • Tim says:

        Lorcan, Excellent. We may have a runner!

        The private sector will not like it much. We are in “nonconventional” times, though.

        But, it IS a great idea. And, it will work.

        “Sitting”.

  2. Tim says:

    Deco and Furrylugs, I would like your input on this, if you are available. The “golden-circle” will oppose it, tooth and nail, becaus eit means that they cannot pretend to be better than anyone else on 100k, thus, radically reducing the number of people they consider “beneath” them. That will be a VERY hard sell.

    Input, boys, please?

    Dilla, pera, you too.

    • Deco says:

      Tim. I will take your point.

      Ireland is dominated by a particular culture in many of it’s capitalist enterprises which loves the easy way out. Michael Davitt once said that the Irish had two weaknesses – Alcohol, and Moral Cowardice. But effectively Alcohol equates to Moral Cowardice here. And I think that he meant to say that we only have one problem – Moral Cowardice – or always going for the easy option. (In those days we did not have the pride surge that exists nowadays!!). But we are not the only people who like picking the easy option-perhaps Davitt was pre-occupied with us always picking the easy option – when we needed to pick hard options to improve matters. A bit like the last ten years – when under Ahern there was a culture of always picking the easy option. As Churchill manifested, you must pick the hard option, before you run out of options.

      Well, if we presume that economics is a field of human behaviour, then cultural mores(which are choices of themselves) are highly infleuntial in determining how we deal with a crisis.
      In Ireland the main lobby group of the “Economic Rent Infrastructure Phenomenon” is IBEC. But the concept is replicated by trade associations, industry representative groups, and even trade unions. I see no indication that IBEC want to see market reforms for sectors where their members are charging prices that are above normal, to account for ‘normal’ profit taking. They are a lobby group and exist to maximise profit taking by group bargaining on a macroeconomic scale. Options like deflation are resisted by IBEC members. Bear in mind that IBEC includes the banks, the ESB and FAS. There is a lot of institutional lethargy and corruption, within prominent members of IBEC. And this is something that infleunces IBEC policy, motives and objectives. Because often the key people in IBEC are aware of considerations. The vested interests review the current economic problem as a problem for somebody else. IBEC have not suggested that the ESB reduces the outlandishly expensive price of it’s electircity. Well no !! The easy option is to suck money/rent from somewhere else.

      We do not have a proper functioning market in vast areas of the Irish economy. We have a market-but often it is rigged by the dominant players. There are institutional factors which make market efficiency impossible. We seem incapable of getting infrastructure/state policy economics right, and we seem equally incapable of getting domestic private sector economics in order. Really incompetence in the management of both is being carried by performance in the export sector.

      Furry is right. Article 45 is needed. We need a “Martin Luther” figure to hammer the contents of Article 45 to the door of the Dail, or IBEC headquarters. What matters most in a crisis is not the RTE dramatics, but the response. Our response has been compromised by the entrenched interests of the corrupt and ineptly governed institutional mentality in the state and protected domestic sectors. The concept of Irish Management is failing.
      The moral cowardice of our politicians(all of them) has meant that they have all gone along with this nonsense. They are either dithering so as not to lose votes, or playing to the gallery so as to gain votes. Their antics are completely denigrating any form of robust and thorough economic debate. David McW has more ideas on how to respond to the crisis than all the think tanks on Kildare Street. And his are not shaped by institutional bias.

      Only Shane Ross and Joe Behan seem to completely grasp what has happened to this country, and the scale of the problem. And they are both now shoved to Newstalk and rarely get on the national broadcaster – because their attacks on the institutional corruption are seen as inflamatory. Seeing that Roy Keane is currently twiddling his thumbs, maybe he might want to make himself available to the political process, for the explicit purpose of telling all the cosy boring middle aged priveleged wasters running various personal fiefdoms of Ireland, that the game is up. That we are not believing this nonsense anymore. That the disconnect between a people and their forms of authority has drifited. And that the people want institutional reform.

  3. Tim says:

    To all, I am well under 100k, so this would not hurt me.

    I would hazzard a guess that very few people here are over 100k.

    Reasoning: people over 100k do not care what happens to our economy or our people – because they do not have to.

    (Unattested assumption, I know; there may be people here wo care AND earn more than that; but I bet they are a minority among us – WELCOME, if that is you!).

    The idea is a good one.

    MK1 started it, and it is germinating here, right now.

    What do you say?

    • Robert says:

      There are 33000 millionaires in Ireland – nearly all of whom “made money” through property during the so-called “celtic tiger”.

      Strangely though less than 1 % declare an income above 250,000.

      Next year Lenihan is committed to finding funding cuts of 4000 million euros. This money could be raised in an instant by charging a 15 % levy to those who earn over 100,000 Euros (as mentioned by Vincent Browne in the Irish Times last week)

      What will Lenihan probably do?

      Sack more teachers and nurses. Throw a levy on the homeless perhaps??

      Pity the health sector this year. . . . . As they cannot cut the education any further.

      We have a joke of an education minister (actually we’ve got 5 education ministers) going aroung boasting about increased capitation for school builidings (i.e. looking after Parlon & the CIF) whilst sacking the teachers who are working in the same schools.

      Banana Republic

  4. I’ve just read all the comments in one sitting. Now exhausted, it’s hard to think clearly. But that’s not reason to give up…

    (1) We need change at every level, not only within the financial institutions and personnel

    (2) This will take time; there will always be a temptation to think that there isn’t enough time to find, and do, the right thing

    (3) There is a role for ideas concerning corporate social responsibility, political ethics as well as what can be done by local people working together

    (4) This internet is a tool whose potential hasn’t really been half tapped – for example we don’t yet have a Facebook Group for Our Recovering Community

    (5) We need Mr Cowen to announce he’s seen the error of his ways and will cut government excessive expenditure (say, in future all government ministers will stay in 3 star hotels abroad, the jet will never again be used, all public servants will book Ryan Air flights and so on) – All symbolic stuff, but very cathartic.

    (6) Mr Lenihan needs to admit he told untruths for what he believed was the national interest. He needs to resign, showing the public a long list of reasons why he should have done it ages ago, including how he supervised Mr Neary. It would be best if the whole cabinet resigned on the same day, so that Mr Cowen could construct a completely new government. This should be co-ordinated with the resignations of 10 top public servants – a symbolic number, but including many who are no where near retirement age: all to leave office without any golden handshake and much reduced pensions.

    (7) Anything less than these draconian initiatives, and there is no point in Mr Cowen doing anything at all: he has lost all public credibility and, if he carries on to the next election due in three years, he will be subjecting the people to an abominable regime.

    (8) A big investment in literacy and numeracy education to accompany these measures. Ireland has too many people leaving the education system without sufficient basic skills for future employment. They are people growing up disaffected, marginalised, and in a hopeless situation. They know they won’t find normal employment. Their enterprise will lead many into crime. We all need their energy, and some form of education for them is a priority we ignore at our peril.

    (9) Voluntary work is one of the key levers for social regeneration. I’m 58. All I think about is what I can put back in to society. I’ve gone through years of trying to prove something, and fashion a career. I’m past all that now. I’m in the phase of my life where what interests me most is collaborating with others, passing on what skills and experience I have to the next generation. Fortunately, I’ve never let money determine my priorities so I don’t have that habit to break. But I bet there are thousands of others with a similar mentality who’ve never heard someone stand up and speak it out. The native Irish don’t relish the role of tall poppy. But we can be a great people, well able to share and behave communally. (It’s in our rural way of life – the methil. It’s in the way people lived in the Liberties. Of course, it’s not rampant in the detatched house mentality, but behind all those closed door lie people only one generation removed from valuable memories.)

    God, this is priestly stuff. I might be writing for Studies back in the days when Catholic social thinking was catholic. If only some priests hadn’t been so violent to children, we might have been prepared to listen to thinking from that quarter. But it’s too late for turning back to them. We need to press on with taking responsibility for our own fate.

    I present this long list thread of thoughts and urgings to you all, acutely aware that I’m only etching the surface of the task. There’s a long road here.

    I wish I could be with you in Dublin on 7th March and Limerick on 21 March. I’ll be there in spirit, and wish you every success.

    • Tim says:

      Paul, keep going, please; I am listening to you. You have somethine very worthwhile to say and you have put alot of effort into giving it to us.#

      Please continue.
      I like all that you have taken the trouble to write; however, I like paragraph 9) , in particular.

      It is , “Priestly stuff”, as you say.

      But, maybe that’s Ok now. If it is not, then, thank you for it, anyway.

      Paul, now, …. you inspire me. I am tied to you forever.

  5. BrendanW says:

    @ Gadfly have to agree with you and Delia , sure I’m misspelling you Names here but you know who You Are. Right now what is happening in Ireland , Economics is only playing a small part in the over all context of a social and global mind set swing taking place across the developed nations while within our microcosm we are seeing the final years decay of our third generation of political revolunitionary political classes and those by association attached to them.
    We have developed this far into a selfish self centre group of individuals where we will at times shout from within the crowds while we don’t often step forward due to lack of self purpose.
    In order for this social revloution to complete its cycle we will need the high rate of unemployment ,watch within the next few months when the twenty something Irish trades people get their coke supply cut and a beating for not paying their debts, they will look towards the young politicians out there who are willing to stand up to the Institution.
    As far as I am concerned Tim regarding libel and your hits on these pages, I would lock you up also if we had more prision spaces as you are as guilty as Biffo, Bertie ,Briano, and Mary for the mess this country now finds it’s self in you openly admit here to been a paid up member of the F.F. club ( or do you actually pay them party dues ! )
    Now two years ago I tried to bring in a natural health product from the USA and the producers if granted this permit were going to open a plant employing 150 , was rejected by the Irish Medicines Board , simply because of their Corporate Pharma. Sponsorship, who of course would not like seeing a rival and better product for the consumer on the shelves. Sean Ross is working on this case too,
    The level of Cronyism and self interest groups that operate here gives us The Status of banna republic , from our national broadcaster ( same faces for over two decades now ) our semi state millionaire management teams. our cozy town councils placing the chair on a rota system , the schools teachers best paid in Europe with longest holidays who protest when personaly affected yet don’t teach their students as to what is really going on here, with Garda driving by street arguments when they are ending a shift.
    Yes for years we played off the fact , we were great crack to be with and , us Irish know how to party and drink, well now we are slowly waking up after our ninty odd year party of celebrating having freedom.
    We have to in order to give our children and theirs a proper place to live, get rid of F.F. and F.G. too as they are the same , now they just sit opposite each other , off stage they drink at the same bar. Labour I’ll give them a chance if Gilmore brings out a mandate capping salary expenses and government posts along with a declaration of disclosure with the punishment been canceling of pension. ….. watch the Markets bring AIB don’t to 30cent , then Tim even u 2 can become a stock holder…

  6. Impressive argument by Michael Taft over here….

    http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/

    Is he sound?

  7. StephenKenny says:

    I’m not confident that a ‘New Company’ initiative is the right approach, Two reasons really:
    Firstly, at this stage in a downturn, we can expect an uptick in PR/Advertising, and in IT. These are activities that companies believe could improve their chances, and cut their costs. Unfortunately, the cake is shrinking, so it doesn’t work.
    Secondly, the classic next step in employment, is a burst of activity in self-employment – check the adverts for franchises, for example.
    It you think about it, it’s a terrible time for the inexperienced (small business owner) to start a business. Even in good times, starting a business is a pretty dangerous thing to do (if it has costs, and needs to produce a profit). The economy is shrinking, so for the majority all that’ll happen is that they’ll lose their investment – probably their redundancy pay.
    Worse than that, they’ll be made another wave of collapsing companies, and depressed people.

    My view, for what it’s worth, is to skip that phase and get a good re education policy in place – enabling people to get some really solid skills. On the one hand, things such as languages, international business, small business skills, sales & marketing skills, and so on. On the other, we have to select sectors that we believe will grow over the next 20 years, and get people skilled and experienced in those areas. For example, put people on contracts and place them with German and French high-tech engineering companies. The contract ensures that they come back, at least for XX years.

    One final point. We must deal with the excessive costs of many of what we might call ‘social admin’, lawyers ,doctors, PS, power, water, financial services, etc. What money we have, must be spent on forward movement, not on ‘plumbing’.

    • fordprefect says:

      @StephenKenny.

      Starting a business is difficult but if you have your head screwed on why not? If you own a small business you aren’t necessicarily inexperienced. Ours is a small business established since 1991 and there is little chance of us going out of business anytime soon. In fact we are going to expand because we are countercyclical. Even if the cycle is utter depression. Both our businesses will survive. We fought bigger guys just to get into the fight. We might start another one.

      The economy shrinks. So what. Companies go out of business in good times as well as bad and most of the time the external environment has little to do with it. Most of the time it is complacency and incompetence or a dangerous cocktail of both. Its dangerous to jump out of a plane without a parachute. Its dangerous to have both partners working in the same place with a monumental mortgage. That is economic suicide. Start a business, who knows you might succeed and with credit practically unavailable you have to rely more on clisteach and ingenuity and not lazy waves of cheap cash from the bank hiding the gaping holes in your aspirational and unrealistic business plan.

      Business failure is not a cause of depression. Pick yourself up and try something new again. Taking control of your own destiny and your own life and career instead of looking up like a sad puppy dog at Dell or IBM is a more positive sign for the economy rather than waiting for a knight in shining armour to ride in and save the day.

      So you are saying skip the entrepreneurial part and lets all go learn French. We utterly utterly failed to pick sectors that would sustain employment in the past 20 years when we had a boom. Why do we need to fall at someone elses feet to make it. Why can’t we grow our own companies. Have we no confidence? And to say that reeducation for the 19th century, which is what passes for education these days is lunacy.

      I agree we need skills but I disagree its a bad time to start a business. Your sense of what is dangerous and what a market is is to me seriously outdated! You also seem to cling to the notion that the powers that be 1. know what they are doing and 2. act in the interests of what is best for Ireland when it is clear that they do not and they act for the small closed circle they always acted for.

      The top down, dictatorial approach has been found wanting. The next boom will come from the ground up and because of the half arsed broadband network we have it will be slow and painful.

      • StephenKenny says:

        There are a number of reasons not to rush to create a ‘start a business’ movement in declining times.

        When the economy is shrinking, although any individual business can thrive, the amount of business being done is shrinking, so the probability of a business failing is going up.

        The business environment is very difficult during recessions. On top of the normal product creation and business development issues that are the meat of a small business, during recessions, you add on potentially terminal cashflow problems, from both sides. Your credit line can vanish for no reason, and your best customers suddenly need 90 days – that’s ‘need’, not want. Business development itself just takes up more time, with a higher fall off rate. You are small, weak, have little muscle, so all of this absorbs a lot of time. If you’re part of a supply chain, the problems get multiplied.

        If your idea is capital intensive, then not only is raising money even more awful than usual, but you’ll be giving away an unnecessarily large part of your business in the process. A wait of 6 months could make all the difference.

        The bottom line is that an awful of lot human and financial capital would be wasted, and a lot of potentially great businesses would get crushed by these myriad negative forces.

        I’m not suggesting that any individual shouldn’t start a business, just as I wouldn’t suggest that any individual shouldn’t buy a house at the moment – they may have a really great deal – but speaking broadly, I don’t think either are a good idea, just now.

        As for a top down, dictatorial, approach, quite frankly, in terms of small businesses, I have no idea what you mean.

  8. Tim says:

    “Go, Stephen”!

  9. jim says:

    Any Economist will tell you.myself included that in order to maximise a return on investment,whether its from a foreign or indiginous source,its vitally important to understand the dynamics at work in the Country you choose to make that investment.In other words what makes it tick.Now I dont want to offend or discourage in any way,but an objective analysis is important to would be start-up’s so as to maximise their chances of success.The local market in Ireland is complex and sometimes confusing with regard to where it sees itself,but as I see it and again I can only offer an opinion.so here it goes.Socially it appears to mirror or ape a failed and outdated English class system,more prevalent in the larger urban areas,with its pinnacle at D4.Ditto for the legal system with the exception of some changes from Europe.The large Civil Service seems to be modelled on the English system for controlling a colonised people and with its dislocation from the general populace.secrecy,nepotism,promotion system,etc more akin to India during the last day’s of the Raj.Land and its ownership favours the larger holders and has eased Ireland into a European alliance through various CAP’S and subsidies which has seen small holders squeezed out ,vast tract’s under utilised,and an industry almost incapable of feeding its own people.The Banking system appears to be similar to the worst excesses of Wall St.The Bankers having taken advantage of the larger Euro re.interest rates.inflation, etc and with the help of a sympathetic Regulator and local Central Bank,and Government have anchored the people of Ireland with a credit bubble and an associated sub-prime property lending policy to a life of wage slavery.The infrastructure re.roads .rail etc is fragmented and unreliable and tends to favour more affluent areas specially around the Capital Dublin where vested interests seem to control policy decisions re.zoning,capital programmes,etc.and seem well capable to continue this status quo in light of the failures of successive tribunals,the costs of which while enriching a select few might prove a deterrent to further work in this area.My conclusion is that while Ireland is presently gripped with funding and cash flow problems it is more likely that a more benovolent ECB will ease these concerns in time at the expense of Independance (Lisbon treaty) but it will take a monumental effort to drag Ireland away from its present political and social structure into a more enlightened and equatible World.

    • Dilly says:

      You are correct, especially regarding the English model, although people tend to fly into a rage when this is pointed out to them, i suppose the truth is sometimes to hard to bare. It will take a hell of a long time to move away from this model.

    • Deco says:

      Interesting point concerning the institutional heritage of the state. The English model of civil service had it’s merits and it’s flaws. The problem is that it is too layered, slow to reaction, has hierarchical communication paths, and is inflexible. In our version here, there is also a massive amount of nepotism and incompetence. Classic example is IFRSA. They did nothing for the last ten years – except expand pointlessly and create layers. Now they are incapable of dealing with exactly the sort of criris they were supposed to prevent/apprehend. I wonder how their current ineptitude will be tackled – by giving them a new name, and a face lift like RTE news ??? with the same old fools manning the rudder ??

      • StephenKenny says:

        I fear that you are merely talking about all public sectors, in whatever country.
        The idea that in any country the public sector actually operates – rather than just having some, much repeated, lovely mission statements – is, generally, wishful thinking.
        What I’m getting at is that it is necessary, when looking for national solutions, to assume that the public sector will hinder, generally, rather than help. The reasons are very human, and, as such, somewhat trivial in nature, but all encompassing in effect: It’s just about power, in it’s broadest sense.

  10. amcdonne says:

    Rebuilding Ireland Inc

    As usual David, you have the nail on the head.

    As country we have grown up dramatically in the last 30 years but our political, legal & civil services have failed to keep pace. As a nation that aspires to “moving up the value chain” we need to find leaders who actually know what this means and who can make this happen. No longer are we prepared to accept “intellectually blank assertions” (no presentation of the analysis, evidence, data, or plan for consideration) from patronising politicians who seem to think that we are incapable of understanding what’s going on and what it takes to actually deliver for the country.

    The days when the bank manager, the politician, the parish priest, the solicitor or the doctor where the only educated people in town and that smoozing and pulling strokes was how we measured political success are long since over. Politicians in general and Fianna Fail in particular however have failed to recognise this passing. In the same way that Lehman Brothers and other Financial Institutions have suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth, so will go our current political parties unless they recognise and lead by example, the modern, well educated people that is Ireland Inc.

    I grew up in the Ballyfermot of the 60’s and 70’s. On my way to secondary school I passed the local “FAS” centre (then ANCO) and watched through the large glass windows, years and years of lads being taught how to lay bricks, build a wall and knocking it down only to build it up again………….and this at a time when the only building jobs were in England!!

    Our current “solutions” border on the same level of limited thinking…………..more training (necessary but insufficient and definitely not a short to medium term solution) and “moving up the value
    chain” (what about the 20-30% who will never be knowledge workers capable of moving up the value chain, at least not for the next 50 years or never if we fail to help those with special needs!

    I have long believed that coalition of experienced, master business practitioners could add some tremendous value to building and better shaping Ireland Inc. than many of the people currently tasked with this challenge.

    In light of current events I thought it might be a good time to try something along these lines and we have set up a group on the business networking site, LinkedIn, which seems a perfect place to get things started.

    Given my own particular interests, I believe that we have a tremendous competence in the private sector of managing large, complex national and multinational business but the evidence as presented in our public sector shows us to be bordering on a third world country.

    With all due respect to the political, academic and consulting advisors who provide certain but insufficient expertise, I’d like to see a “board of expert master practitioners” available to the government to bring real practical expertise to solving many of the problems that exist in the economy.

    I have set up a Blog http://rebuildingirelandinc.blogspot.com/ and a group on Linkedin http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1801970&trk=hb_side_g

  11. Philip says:

    My rules for Ireland going forward…

    1) Tax anyone working in the public sector at 90% if earning over 100K. If earning over 50K – 30% marginal.

    2) Private sector…no tax on profits which are kept into the company. No corporate tax at all. On salaried income, I’d set 90% tax at 200K and 30% over 100K. Nothing else.

    3) Property tax in relation to the infrastructure serving it and its sze

    I think we need to start thinking outside the box as far as civil service and public service jobs are concerned. Let’s ignore nonsense Oecd, EU and other fairy tale nonsense. Cut it by 70% – starting with HSE and then 50% for the rest. I would probably cut Education by 100% and rehire 30%. Quality of Irish education is useless. We are innumerate monoglots who can barely speak english. Workmanship is a disaster. We are sloppy and self deluded. I dunno where PISA et al are getting their nonsense stats from – if we are getting value, then maybe we are indeed thick and little can be done about it.

    To manage those who do not understand the obvious genius of the above , Increase army size by 300%.

    Then sit back for 2 years and remove from oven for a few months…Then Europe will be sorry.

    Look, I apologise for being a bit flippant. But unless we get this shower of idiots running the place off our backs, we are wasting our time. Paddies do not self organise well and I see little happening. The only thing you can do is look after yourself and your local community and keep the faith.

    As for the rest of Europe (some of whom are smirking at us), their tsunami is coming as well. The mainland europeans are not exactly the best in their record for corruption, cronyism etc. There’s 1.7Trillion loans to the Eastern Block countries and 400bn is due for rollover soon – things are getting interesting everywhere.

  12. Garry says:

    Another idea has been floated further up these pages, one that’s been mentioned fleetingly in the past, it would be great to get a professional economists view on it… the idea of a national maximum wage..

    The minimum wage is well known, there’s some mutterings about reducing it to help competitiveness but I strongly believe that starting there is wrong.
    The maximum wage was seen as nonsense but given the depth of the hole we find ourselves in I feel it should be seriously looked at.

    A simple way to enforce it is through a cap in public sector payments to any one individual. And it could be backed up with taxation for private sector or cross public sector/private sector if that was needed. So whether youre a nurse, a prison officer, a guard, a civil servant, a hospital consultant, a politican, a regulator, a semi state, a farmer (grants), a failed banker whose bank exists because of the state, the limit would apply to you. The limit would be set at X per year and would include all payments…

    Its not to punish people so why do it? Well

    1) We cant afford to pay what we are currently paying, we will be bankrupt without serious changes. This is only starting to sink in with people though the maths are very very simple. So we have to cut something
    2) Economists say cutting public spending in a recession is silly as it adds to the recession.The reason they say this is it stops people spending adding to the problem . As poor people save less than rich people, cutting at the top wont have the same macro economic effect while saving serious amounts of money
    3) The thing to include all payments is to stop double jobbing. We have plenty of skilled people on the dole so this would increase employment. e.g. the recent case of the disability quango ceo with a state pension of 70k plus a salary of 150k, while making cuts in services because they dont have enough money happens all too frequently. Or serving ministers with teachers salaries and other pensions.
    4) Its leadership and gets the country pulling together. Competitiveness should start at the top and work its way down, e.g. Brian Cowen should be paid less than Gordon Brown. Instead he is paid far far more than him. Nothing personal but you cant have overpaid people at the top cutting wages of minimum wage people and expecting co-operation.

    Why not do it?
    Well it could stop inward investment if taken too far. Im sure the public sector unions would want to ban all private sector people from earning more than it which in my view would take it too far. If theres a profitable private sector company employing hundreds of people here they should be free to set wages as they see fit subject of course to taxation. I think the max wage whatever it would be set at would be academic for the vast majority of workers, both public and private.

    I think its important to realise this would not be being done for ideological reasons, just for pragmatic reasons to reduce the public sector pay bill whilst maintaining services.
    And spend from the public sector.

  13. Amcdone,
    I’d like to thank you for taking your initiative. I look forward to looking at your website and linking to you via LinkedIn. Your’s is the type of joined up behaviour we need. And, if I disagree with your proposals, I’ll support your initiative. In this day and age, I don’t know where the big idea that galvinises people into effective action is going to come from.

    Thank you Tim for your words. I don’t deserve such fulsome praise but love it. I don’t know whether you are a member of Fianna Fail or not, but it doesn’t matter to me – you are investing your time, energy and best thinking – and I’m beholden to you for that. I trust you’ll keep it up. I have great hope for Fianna Fail members. They have been prepared to put their time into the community. They have enterprise, and huge numbers of them have demonstrated entrepreneurial flair. I think they have been miserably led and I don’t need to repeat that analysis. If anyone rights off FF members and supporters, they right off an important section of the Irish people, and thereby construct a useless dicotomy. Let us take a few symbolic heads and crack on with the difficult task of constructing (sic) a new national order.

    Mr Fitzpatrick has taken the 5th Amendment. He has exercised his right to silence. He probably thinks he is sparing his family public humiliation. His wouldn’t be the first family to find out what their father’s job was via the media. He is mistaken, I think. Sean, you’d be better to make a clean breast of it. The psychology of confession is sound. You would walk out of the proverbial confession box better able to rebuild your shattered life. Think of all the others who’ve done it before you. It’s not too late to turn back and help us recover. There are other ways to bring the corrupt banking culture to its knees. The people you were lunching with yesterday wouldn’t, of course, be pleased if you gave evidence and disclosed the Fort Knox of worms. But what must it be like for the CEO of AIB & BoI over the breakfast table with children and grandchildren? “Is it all going to come out Daddy?”

    Kevin Myers has argued for a new crime to be created: the crime of silence in the face of reasonable questions. The debate on this seems to take place as if those keep stum are drug lords and ‘scumbags’. Kevin’s argument could equally, and perhaps with greater social benefit, apply to white collar people, pin striped people, those who’ve taken extraordinary risks with the money of those who could ill-afford to take such risk.

    Fortunately, many of those who’ll lose their jobs have been well educated – or so I’m told. The important issue here is, I suggest, how flexible their minds have become or remained? We don’t really live in a knowledge economy any more. I was educated to accumulate facts and regurgitate the same. My education was a training for my memory. That was the paradigm.

    We now live in an imagining economy. What people most need is a curious imagination and the flexibility of the nomad. But that’s another story…

    Let’s be careful to

    (1) Remember the dispossessed – those who are not yet literate or numerate

    (2) Educate for the future rather than the past – transferable intelligence, skills, competence…

    (3) Keep ethics, principled thought, omni-responsible behaviour in mind always

    (4) Encourage whistle-blowing : we need an national award ceremony for this

    (5) Remember we’re not used to working together – it’ll take time for us to click and come down out of our individual hobby-horses in order to forge alliances for change.

    Thank you all very much for making this a fine forum.

  14. You may be interested in similar types of intergenerational work that is happening in the US. A nonprofit company called Civic Ventures aims to encourage older workerts to tackle social problems. They have established an Experience Corps and a Purpose Prize. They are more focused on social issues than the business ideas concept in your Argentina example but I believe ensuring that older workers continue to contribute to society (and receive payment for doing so) is key in tackling societies problems including issues such as education, healthcare and pensions. The CEO of Civic Venture, Marc Freedman, has written a book called “Encore – Finding Work That Matters in the Second Half of LIfe” which reframes the concept of retirement. Great post, thanks for raising the issue of how intergenerational projects can help solve problems.

    Links:

    http://www.civicventures.org/

    http://www.civicventures.org/experience_corps.cfm

    http://www.purposeprize.org/index.cfm

  15. Reading “The Shock Doctrine” by Naomi Klein I was struck by a quote from Milton Friedman, detailing how Chicago school economic policies were widely adopted in the 80′s onwards…His were the ideas “laying around” for people to use when the shocks came (shocks in the form of war, economic disturbances, natural disasters etc). Unpopular measures were pushed through as the populace were shell shocked and unable to react. I don’t agree with Friedmans ideas but this idea of having ideas “laying around” is relevant today because our government are bereft of ideas. I feel that for once ideas will need to come from the bottom up, and hence the importance of this kind of fora. We need to make sure our ideas are “laying around”…God knows we are not going to see solutions from the elites in our little oligarchy.

    Here’s one idea, alluded to by Lorcan earlier…invest in the REAL economy, and go one step forward…invest in productive industries that we know will be valued globally both in the short and long term. People world wide are going to be strapped for cash. We’re also going to see less availability of cheap energy as oil runs out. Global warming may be another issue. So instead of trying to revive a mythic economy based on FDI’s manufacturing “bling & tat” and selling each other overpriced shelter, we need to invest in start-ups that will create immutable benefits in the new scary world we face. We’re a small country (more people in Manchester) so we shouldn’t be afraid to brand as a nation (“Ireland…world leaders in energy efficiency”)…our new start ups should be selling cheap solutions to the growing energy crisis (and other real-world problems) into a world that will be screaming for these kind of necessities. The need is there, and it hasn’t been serviced. For example, why aren’t we producing flat-pack style solar water heating units that can be fitted as a DIY project? Energy efficient farming strategies relying on less petrochemical input? (our greens would rather tax light bulbs…!). We need a strategy, a vision…what do we want ireland to look like in 2, 5 years time? More specifics and less government BS about innovation and knowledge based economy. Look strategically at what the world will need, make sure our economy will service those needs. We need to be the first economy to steer away from the bling and tat bubble. We’re small enough, we can do it. I’m no economist so maybe I’m way off target.

    While we’re at it, lets cut our costs by investing in real preventative health. A recent HSE survey showed that 86% of the population here die from chronic non-communicable disease (heart disease, cancers, stroke etc). There is a huge cost to our economy treating these people, never mind the human cost. We have no real investment in prevention, our attention span is way too short. Preventative health solutions would save us money and would also be exportable. OK, we don’t have the cash for this right now, but like any good business lets write it into our national vision. We have the potential to be saving a fortune in the future so lets make this one of the ideas that are “laying around”.

    On a related point this is not an efficient forum for debate, or promulgation of relevant ideas…it is a disorganised and disjointed set of opinions (many of them excellent, don’t take offence!). This needs to be formalised into a proper internet forum, with topic headings etc. Otherwise the danger is that everything written here will remain as a footnote to a DMW article. We need to make sure that some of the ideas being discussed on this site are “laying around” for people to use…I don’t know how!

    • Deco says:

      Good idea – preventative health. Our Accident and Emergency facilities are filled with various classes of substance abusers, or their victims. We need to reduce the costs of the HSE by fixing our chronically unhealthy lifestyles. Large sections of Ireland – based on discrimination on the basis of geography and income – the two classic long running factors of differentiation in Ireland – have no other choice.

      The only way to deal with an incompetent HSE, and it’s various levels on nonsense, is to avoid it as far as possible. By a healthier lifestyle.

  16. Tim says:

    Paul, thanks very much for the Taft link. For others, here is a flavour; I think it is an important piece of writing.

    “Don’t you just love these policy prescriptions based on ‘insider chats’? Here’s a variation:

    ‘I was having a pint in Doheny & Nesbit’s and talking to a guy who knows a fellow who had been talking to another guy who heard about a Japanese dentist who was unsure about the coupon yield of the Irish Government’s new bond issue. If we’re not careful those workers and special needs kids will ruin everything.’

    Exaggerated? Not by much. We’ve already had the Borrowing-Monster unleashed on us – even though our net debt is half the Eurozone average; and the Uncompetitive Wages-Monster – even when our wage levels are well below the EU-15 average; and let’s not forget the Public Spending-Monster – regardless that Irish current public expenditure levels are the absolute lowest in the EU (save for Lithuania). Now we’ve got the International Bond Investor-Monster to frighten us all back indoors. How unlikely is this doomsday (even our Dermot accepts it as ‘unlikely’)? Let’s run some numbers.

    (And apologies if this gets a bit turgid, but the Right are using this argument with vehemence, so hopefully you’ll read on).

    Continue reading “February 16th Afternoon: The Recession Diaries” » “

  17. MK1 says:

    Garry > Well it [salary cap] could stop inward investment if taken too far.

    I dont think it would at all, in fact I think a salary ‘cap’ (which would be a tax mechanism that would tax all/most income above 100k a year) would be attractive for FDI. FDI owners/managers are normally on ex-pat deals anyway, when based here, so dont get paid in Ireland so its no disadvantage to them. The advantage is that the FDI people would know that executives/staff in Ireland dont have to be paid more than 100k.

    Anything above 100k at a 100% tax rate is vanity and of no value to the employee. People wouldnt care if they worked for 150k or 100k, as take home would be the same and the extra cost to the employer may actually reduce the employee’s chance of ‘perks’ elsewhere. This would filter down to all wages of the salary ‘pyramid’/tree, a flatter wage tree would result, it would keep wage costs down over time and increase competitiveness. It could also be a huge fillip to social and ‘class’ equalisation in this country.

    The salary ‘cap’ would also provide many extra beneficial knock-ons. It may push people out of the cosy Public Sector and into businesses where through dividends (as business owners) they could earn more. It could thus spur entrepreneurship both from private sector workers and public sector. Private Sector salaries could be ‘capped’ perhaps by a slightly different level to demonstrate the value that Public Sector workers receive by assured employment contracts, although that may come in later and doesnt have to be there from day 1.

    As for the minimum wage, I think as was shown with some recent research (where 70% of hotel workers dont even get it and are effectively paid through the black market!), whats needed is more workplace inspectors, to bring everybody inside the official net even if paying close to zero percent tax. I ‘hear’ there are 1000 HSE workers who have nothing to do all day so lets put them to better use as employment/workplace inspectors.

    Employer PRSI should be overhauled. It should be simplified, we are all people after all, it should be called a tax as it is a tax and quacks like a tax, and should be lumped into salary/income taxes, as it is a salary cost!

    “We have many rivers to cross ……”

    Philip, in terms of changing our government and self-organising, it is possible. People need to convert their anger to action. If we ALL went on a 1-day strike, just for one day, and met at every civic centre in every town/city in Ireland and IF we all called for the same thing, a general election, then we could see what would happen. IF we can mobilize 3million people, men women and children (and teenagers), that would be a major statement.

    If at that stage the government/president refused to call an election, then this place could revert to anarchy. So Philip, call for a national day of action which would call for a general election. Ring Joe Duffy to get the ball rolling. Mar 18th maybe?

    A change of Government may not result in major differences, we will never be able to compare like for like 100% accurately, but at this stage ‘a ‘change is as good as a rest’ and given the track record badly needed.

    MK1

    • Garry says:

      MK1, On the figure you mentioned, Im more concerned with the concept than setting the figure, that depends on a lot of factors….is there any serious issue with the concept?
      The majority of people would not be affected by the figure, I couldnt see a guard, a teacher, a civil servant, or a nurse being affected. Similarly most people should not be directly affected by what the minimum wage is. Most people should be somewhere in the middle.

      But the min wage has an impact on pay scales at the lower end, and I would expect the max would have an impact on the upper end. And the multiple between the 2 is as good a measure of social equality as we could get.

      If it was set too low and caused a lot of senior people to leave the public sector en masse that would not be right. But I don’t see the harm in having some senior people leave the public sector or indeed any company, new blood always brings new ideas and opportunities. Overpaying them hasn’t done us any good.

      The only problem I can see is it would directly impact those setting policy and therefore would require the social partners to act in the nations interest and not in their own (the guys sitting around the table whether representing the employers, the unions or the government are all on serious money).

  18. lff12 says:

    While I strongly agree this is a great opportunity, I cannot help feeling a degree of incredulity at the tens of thousands who never considered they might need to think outside the box. Beside me here my olfactorily challenged colleague writes his cv up – aside from the fact that he stinks (which generally in my own experience of business makes one a rather unpopular colleague and prime target for staff reduction regardless of ability) he is putting his 2 little industry certifications into his paltry little CV, which basically show that for the last 15 years since he left school with lots of good opportunities, he did basically nothing at all to develop himself. Meanwhile on the other side of my cube, there is a girl 6 years younger than him who aside from having qualifications in unrelated businesses, is working through a series of vocational and self-study courses and hands-on experience in auditing. Oh and meanwhile, she’s done a few courses and has qualifications in other areas, so if that falls through, she’s something. Stinky sneers and jeers at the companies attempts to reach industry certifications (threatening other peoples jobs other than his own) whilst spending his days opinioning about rugby and doing the Irish Times crossword. Meanwhile he gets left further and further behind. (I myself have a whole secondary career option as well as ongoin study and other work that hopefully might give me chances should this fall through).

    I think this scene is being replicated up and down Ireland today as those who got handed everything on a plate despite their knuckles still dragging along the ground when they walked and now can neither see that their entire ways of life are under threat, nor the fact that they won’t have any foresight to see any way out.

  19. DarraghD says:

    David I read this article in the Sunday Business Post with my Sunday breakfast and I didn’t think when reading the article why it wouldn’t work but between then and now, I think I’ve mulled over the idea long enough now to understand why I don’t think it will work.

    It won’t work for the following reasons:

    (1) We do not have a positive culture towards entrepreneurship in this country. Starting up a business anywhere is a very hard task to achieve. I’ve done it several times in Ireland and it is only now that I could say that I have any degree of confidence or fluency in running my businesses. There is simply no support for small business start ups, and this is where the real entrepreneurial dreams start off.

    If you start up a business in Ireland, the fact is that the odds are that you will fail. If you can dust yourself off and get back in the saddle, you might have success, but in Ireland, if you fail, you have lost all honour. There is no appitite in this country for “ah sure, I’ll try it again and get it right the next time”. In the US, entrepreneurs wear their failures like badges of honour, but over here, you are sneered at for even having the b*lls to start up your own business! If you fail, you are sneered at for having gotten what was coming to you, you experience typical Irish begrudgery.

    Many of the recently unemployed people in Ireland are no more conditioned to starting up a business than the man on the moon. Any person who has spent the last few years being institutionalised in a large US multinational organisation, wouldn’t know the first or last thing about starting up or running a business. Any folks I know who work for multinationals, are concerned with getting the maximum pay for minimum work. Running a business has taught me that when you start up, you have to put in the work of 2-3 people, for minimum pay.

    I’m not out to kick the unemployed, but the culture of some of these organisations is simply not compatible with starting up a business…

  20. Tim says:

    Philip, Did somebody rob your laptop/steal your identity? Because I cannot believe that you wrote this:

    “I think we need to start thinking outside the box as far as civil service and public service jobs are concerned. Let’s ignore nonsense Oecd, EU and other fairy tale nonsense. Cut it by 70% – starting with HSE and then 50% for the rest. I would probably cut Education by 100% and rehire 30%. Quality of Irish education is useless. We are innumerate monoglots who can barely speak english. Workmanship is a disaster. We are sloppy and self deluded. I dunno where PISA et al are getting their nonsense stats from – if we are getting value, then maybe we are indeed thick and little can be done about it.”

    Totally apart from denying the INTERNATIONALLY objective facts, this is plain nasty.

    I took you for a reasonable man. What is written here is irrational, at best. You think it will build a better future for our country if you cram three times as many kids into classrooms that are already the most crowded in Europe?

    You will NOT do that to my two little children without a fight; I bet every parent here will agree with me.

    God, Help us all!

    • StephenKenny says:

      A few deep breaths Tim….. read the whole piece again, and you will, unless I’m very much mistaken, see that the middle paragraph (your quote) is Philip, shall we say, ‘role playing’?

      • Tim says:

        StephenKenny, Phew! Thanks Stephen. I read that bit and the red mist decended and I got no further. I find myself, everywhere. these days, listening to and reading that same “role play”. It makes me apoplectic!

        Philip, apologies; I should have known. In my defense, I have been battling that approach, for real, for so long that I just can’t help it.

  21. Josey says:

    Lost my job, given three weeks notice.

    Network/ Telecoms Engineer for hire!!!

    ” When people have nothing else to lose….they lose it!!!”

    -Gerald Celente

  22. My Lost Generation says:

    That is so true.
    Once again the comparison between Argentina and Ireland omits the economic context we are in.
    This solution of combining old & young heads looks good on paper, in theory or for the sake of writing an article.

    Work ethics in Ireland have been forgotten; you need to work in order to get money and most of these guys highly paid executives in public and private services just dont.

    1) The government should have started by cutting their own pay by half and put a cap on these incredible salaries in banks, ESB etc…, consultants in health service and other services… No one in Europe gets these kind of salaries.

    The argument is sometimes put forward that these guys might go somewhere else if you dont pay them high wages.
    This is bullshit, there is nowhere in the world where they could get a better pay + there are very few positions left + they are associated with an economy which is the laughingstock of Europe.
    So cut their pay by half.

    2) With the 7 billion the government should have definitely set up a fund exclusively reserved to businesses instead of throwing it in these useless banks.

    3) However in order to do all this you need to get rid of FF. And the only way you can do this is by violently protesting.
    We need to remove FF by force before we can start considering any good ideas on this blog if not, you are wasting your time.

    • Tim says:

      What if we were to take the 7bn back and identify every householder in danger of default and the bank they owe the money to;

      Then, give those people a government bank draft made out to the lender.

      The money would still recapitalise the banks, but it would take pressure off of people on its way to the bank and reduce the toxic debt by paying it off so that it never becomes toxic.

      Am I being too simple again? I don’t see why the government did not do it this way.

      • Ruairi says:

        @ Tim. You said ”

        What if we were to take the 7bn back and identify every householder in danger of default and the bank they owe the money to;
        Then, give those people a government bank draft made out to the lender.
        The money would still recapitalise the banks, but it would take pressure off of people on its way to the bank and reduce the toxic debt by paying it off so that it never becomes toxic.
        Am I being too simple again? I don’t see why the government did not do it this way.

        No, you are not being too simplistic. This is the gut feeling of most of the footsoldiers of Ireland. This was the common sense approach to the problem from OUR perspective. But we do not have large deposits in Anglo, as many of the politicial classes and their buddies would well have had.

        Is it any more nonsensical than the idea of having to vote again on a referendum which was so recently defeated? Apparently, there is one set of rules for plebs and another for the ruling (by economic rent) classes. To paraphrase Daniel O’Connell, they ride a coach and four through our social rules, expectations and life dreams.

      • BrendanW says:

        Yes Tim you are one of the people from simpleton land for sure

  23. Oisin says:

    Such measures only worked for Argentina because the rest of the world,particularly china,was growing at the time.A better lesson from the Argentinian crisis was the wave of worker occupations of failed enterprises, from hotels to factories,which were turned into profitable co-operatives.Such a process would counter the current divide and rule tactics pitching public and private sector workers against each other.The people who drove the global economy over a cliff want to cushion their fall with sacrifices from the rest of us!This is not only criminal it won’t work,slashing demand will only deepen the recession.All the big banks need to nationalized,this is the only way to find out how bad their losses are let alone get credit moving which would require direct state control and a purge of the old guard.The deficit could be reduced through tax hikes on the top 75,000 households who own 300 billion in declared wealth.However these and the other posters good idea’s will never be acheived unless we take a lesson from Iceland and get rid of the government.
    Bye the way Tim,great posts,what are you doing in fianna fail you’re clearly a socialist!

    • Tim says:

      Oisin, thanks, but I am trying to work for change from within. I am a follower of Sean Lemass’ political ideology in FF. I canvassed for Joe Behan in the last election and proud of him; he is of similar mind; I am only sorry that the real-politique goes so much against his (and my) principles that it gets wearisome trying to effect change. All of FF was once like us and most members that I know still are. Something changed when we got into bed with the PDs and the Fitzpatrick report to An Taoiseach 1998, which planned to reduce public service pay and pensions and the TDs linked their salaries with higher civil servants and brought Trade Union bosses into the relativity as well, to get them on-side. Before that, TDs salaries were about those of teachers – now they get quadruple that. Bottom line? The TDs got too fond of money/high earnings/feathering their own nests.

  24. Deco,
    I think your comment is as good a piece of “a plague on all your houses” as I have read. I think you hit out in every relevant direction.

    I’ve seen people dramatically change their behaviour when the quality of leadership changed. A new chief executive communicate a clean message that the business will shut on 1 June unless all counter-productive behaviour cease… That business turned around.

    I’ve looked people in the eye – people who’d been absent from work more often than present during the previous six months – and explained to them that the business could no longer afford to employ them, unless they were fit for work. I’ve seen those people turn round their attendance at work record and become excellent employees.

    Change has happened, and will happen again. Sometimes the current system of thought and action seems totally entrenched, and it takes courage and inspiration to cut through to a level of communication that frees people up.

    To those who say government needs to cut deep into the perks and protections of the ruling class, I say I wholeheartedly agree with you. Why should anyone trust Brian Cowen when it come to equity. He has to re-prove he is worthy of national trust. If he can’t see this, and surround himself with like-minded people, there is no hope for his leadership.

    To those who say the spirit of entrepreneurship in Ireland has been so surrounded by all the wrong stuff that there is no point in supporting people into self-employment, I say I did it. I remember when I didn’t have the self-confidence to leave a cushy, challenging and satisfying job. I saw the good in the job I had and settled for that. It was only after I took the risk of backing myself that I came to think that everyone deserves the experience of running their own business.

    I discovered I was brilliant at business development and excellent at delivering services. I found out I was crap at business administration, including sending out invoices and completing VAT returns. In other words, I came up against reality, my limitations and talents. These were rather hidden from me while I was employed in organisations of up to 19,000 people. (But I got great training in the big organisations.)

    I had advantages. My father owned a family business on which I turned my back. But I’d learned a passion for customer service that stuck with me always, while I was an academic, a bus conductor and so on… (another story for another place). I appreciate that if no one in your family has ever owned a business, it is hard for you to see how to set one up. But there are plenty of us out here who will give advice for free, in return for the satisfaction of practising our skills – I think. Anything I’m prepared, and keen, to do others will be at least as keen to do.

    Everytime someone writes how awful things are, I’m pleased. Steam needs to be let off and I’d rather be round where it is going off.

    But no amount of anger and frustration will shift me from the stance that we all need to dust ourselves down, link up with new people and go for it.

    Please let someone put order on this lovely chaos of ideas.

  25. wills says:

    Hi David,
    It’s a war between the Real economy and the Bankster economy. Thus new ideas, innovation is now
    allowed to return to the stage because the ruling elite have utterly gutted everything. They will leave
    the stage and the hardworking innovators return to set up a new cycle of ideas for the greedy sneaky
    wouldnt harm a fly enunch jellybells section of our community to reenter and cannabilize once again.
    Using their secret weapon making money out of thin air. Thus who are going to be the brainwashed
    fools who yield up new ideas for the elite to swoop down and feed upon all over again,.. not me.

  26. Ruairi says:

    In another thread, Malcolm McClure accused some of us ( I have been well guilty in the past!) of windbagging.

    While it hurts to hear it, its true in general. Its true because we DID give over power to those who told us they were competent, to those we felt were competent. That’s what government and all sorts of complex social structures are for. Its the betrayal of trust by powerwielders, regulators etc that must now spurn us to take back our power.

    Taking back power does not necessarily mean taking their place, setting up political parties. That’s not our bag. In general. We are businesspeople, doctors, teachers, engineers., students, housewives etc etc> We have our calling and its just as important that we focus on our lot at this time.

    Taking back power, as a first primary step of importance, does mean knowing and saying what we want. Not what we don’t want. Its a bit like Dev’s line in Michael Collins, act as if the Republic already exists. Without being too idealistic, we must all take control of our futures, stop copping out and allowing others (clearly without vision) to roadmap for us.

    We often see on Boards.ie and other forums, an OP asking for your top 10 of this or top 10 of that. I am asking all of you to be concise and post 5 short bullet points (with links if you like, but keep it concise until we establish common points) of things that we as a nation can do and could do to 1) offset a depression and 2) benefit from a recovery.

    This is just a suggestion. I’m not commandeering the board. I just would love to see coherent projects that could be easily highlighted by bright sparks wishing to save their political skins or bright sparks wishing to use this political crisis as THEIR opportunity to SERVE the people.

    Projects that will help us as a people:- economically, culturally, politically. e.g. infrastructure projects, financial training in primary schools, reform of local government and pay/taxation norms respectively.

    I only hope that numerous bright sparks dip in here regularly to attempt later bushwhacks of DMcW (filegathering Dublin castle types!) and I also hope they are then discussing any hot ideas they come across. This has to be our contribution through this forum. There should be no let-up of a Night of the Long Knives but we need to go for it now as a nation and get ready for a recovery in 2-3 years time at the outside. (I did say on here many months ago that if Lemass could see what’s happening to his people with such resources (when he had so little and achieved so much) that he would initiate his own Twelve Apostles to clear the decks of wasters; but that’s for another stage in the crisis, if they really show themselves to be enemies of ordinary Irish people.

    Let me show my hand: – I don’t believe in trickle down economics. I believe in trickle-up. Yep folks, I’m a bit of a socialist. I believe that any man is entitled to make a large amount of money provided its based on stability and genuine ingenuity, hard work or vision. I don’t believe a one way market in dead illiquid assets qualifies.

    I would like us to rapidly explore, dismiss or implement (I’ll try to stay brief to each point) : -
    1. a re-appraisal of the tax status of any once-off multi-million gains made in the property boom. This would balance societal expectations and hearten true entrepreneurs in this country also. Property speculation is not entrepreneurship in my book. It must enrich a society also, ala Henry Ford.
    2. The wholesale adaptation of wind, microhydro and wave power. Its not THE solution, no. But its commonsense. Why wait til oil explodes in price again, via Chinese recovered demand or the pressure of falling taxes from oil producers. This widespread uptake of wind and microhydro inland must be driven by local cooperatives who are guided financially and technically by a TEAM Ireland who advise the best solutions, financial models etc. Why cooperatives? Our economy is a multi-faceted thing. There is no magic pill that helps all. But give local communities their power. Give them free power, jobs to build and maintain it, ecotourism from it, a source of power for our farms and SMEs as a risk offset to oil shocks/instability that are more likely in a worldwide depression. Reduce our balance of payments. Aim for input self-sufficiency while striving to remain an SOE.
    3. Build a world-class oil refinery. Dermot Desmond had mooted this before (I think?) and now is the time to push this. Oil will recover as the economy picks up. Build the most advance one the world has seen (none has been built for 30 years) and Money and Markets reckons that with the Alberta tarsands, such a refinery would be an ATM.
    4. Introduce money skills to the primary curriculum. Its really as simple as ‘The Riches Man in Babylon’ or Charles Dickens character’s advice about staying in the black. We must now change our money consciousness in our kids, especially seeing as we are potentially leaving them a large pile of SH1T to shovel. Think of the evolution of the Irish wealth consciousness over the last 40 years. This confidence needs to be controlled if its not to be turned to arrogance and self-procalamation.
    5. Take a risk. Vote for people with good hearts. We can all prosper together and indeed, I have no problem with a wealthy banker (I’m not ready for Islamic banking yet! Although its admirable) but if a man’s going to piggyback me, that’s all he should be doing, not controlling my every movement. Banking needs to be relegated to a function in our society. Not leaders of commerce. They know as much about real business workings as an accountant does. Hindsight is a great thing, but not worht paying multimillion yoyos for.

    I would love to see some of contributors here jsut give their top 5. Let’s not attack one another’s contributions for now?

    • Malcolm McClure says:

      Ruari: I like simple coordination suggestions such as your five bullet points to offset a depression and promote a recovery.

      Offset Depression:
      1) Re-establish the Irish Cooperative Wholesale Society to bulk purchase goods at prices equally favorable to the producer and the consumer.
      2) Employ our laid-up deep-water fishing boats to bring cheap groceries from the UK and continent to the new ICWS.
      3) Develop the work token suggestion for sharing the labour of the unemployed that I suggested in an earlier thread.
      4) Abolish laws that allow people to sue other parties accused of being liable for injuries suffered in accidents. If everybody were responsible for their own personal insurance it would eliminate a lot of insurance claims and reduce premiums. It would also restore the Right to Roam.
      5) All car and fuel taxes to be spent locally by each county on their roads.

      Promote Recovery—Cheap energy is key to economic success:
      1) Micro-hydro plants combined with micro-pumped storage schemes.
      2) Hydrogen fuel cells. —Do deal with Iceland to electrolyse hydrogen from water using their hydrothermal energy.
      3) Unconventional battery research.
      4) Woodchip power plants using sustainable willow plantations, as in Ballymena.
      5) Wave and tidal energy research.

  27. wills says:

    Hi ruairi,
    In reference to your posting its admirable and chocablock with intel.
    Now where’s it going. Can you not see society and levers of
    power banksters you would be obliged to work with in order to secure
    implementation are waiting in delight for you to serve it all up onto the table
    for a good ole cannabilizing. Once again you are missing the point
    like the other postings. You are been put to work to come up with
    intelligent solutions. You would be wiser to look into the real story.
    Corporate/bankster making money out of thin air loolaas absorbing
    all the wealth you are probably right now producing for them in
    you day to day work and figuring a way out to take the power
    back instead of serving em up well thought ideas to keep the debt
    slave system rolling along.

    • Josey says:

      Wills,
      just a few questions on your last post;

      1. Who exactly is printing money out of thin air? I thought the ECB had control over how much each country can print.

      2. What is the role of our Central Bank exactly since the formation of the Euro?

      3. Does our Government have any control on the amount of Euros being printed?

      Thanks,

      Josey

      • StephenKenny says:

        He’s just making a sweeping , somewhat inclusive, generalisation.

        1, The problem isn’t specifically about money, it’s about credit. The banks have been allowed (via ‘lax’ regulatory oversight) to generate an unspeakable amount of credit. The UK economy was recently described as a huge bank, with a small, struggling, national economy, attached. Much the same applies to the republic. The amount of money printed by the ECB is irrelevantly small.

        2. I’ve no real idea what they actually do, but for a view that you might, or might not, trust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bundesbank

        3. No, not really. But it isn’t very important anyway, see (1)

  28. wills says:

    Hi David
    The property bubble was not an accident. It was a deliberate massive over inflation
    viz a viz use of making money out of thin air mechanism. All economists worth their
    salt know the most delicious speculative killing can be made from bubbles. This rot
    must be taking on head to head and making money out of thin air shut down by returning
    credit to utility status before any solution worthwhile stands a chance.

  29. Ruairi says:

    Wills, I think that you are also caught inside someone else’s version of consensus reality.

    If the Irish people, one community at a time, wholeheartedly embrace cooperative style developments at a local and national level, they will bein charge of their day to day stability and accountable to themselves for a portion of their economic value.

    Your position of jaded apathy comes from a base of fear. There are numerous ways to ensure that banking interests/ alchemists / venture capitalists filthy hands are kept a safe distance from the ownership and rudder of community wealth. The farmers sold their souls to the devil when they sold their coops. The time is now for people to come together locally, being nationally advised by a proper set of advisers. Not FAS-men or any other closet entrepreneur. People who care about ireland and see a need for a national effort to protect our hardfought status as an independent people.

    This is not a time for fear. Your post reeks of it. I am not in the job trap. I studied the masters and am not on the hamster wheel any longer. I hope you also are not?

  30. wills says:

    Hi josey,
    No problem josey let me answer each question.
    1. Not printing money, making money out of thin air is done in every
    mainstreet bank when you secure a loan. The numbers are typed
    into your account via a computer.
    2. The role of the central bank still stands chartered. It liasons
    with Bank of international settlements in Basel to ensure
    commercial banks are abiding by the Capital Base ratios
    perscribed in the lending out/making money out of thin
    air to the public.
    3. Again im talking about “making money out of thin air” josey,
    not printing it, huge difference and yes our gov are involved
    in the printing of the euro, but im talking about the blatant
    making of money out of thin air under the fractional reserve system
    which has been gutted by the banksters.

  31. wills says:

    Hi ruairi,
    I do respect your posting. I am fearful yes. I have my fear
    and its tendency to color my p.o.v satisfactorily in check but i
    appreciate you concern all the same. It seems like you are
    personalising things which if you look back at your posting
    you were recommending not to do. This kinda chatter about
    “coming together” is infantile. I suspect you are underestimating
    the scope of the corruption you are attempting to address, you
    wouldnt be the first,..Please dont confuse the message with
    the messenger and go for the old character comments. This is an
    ideas forum lets keep it at that and be friends.

    • Ruairi says:

      Hi Wills,

      no personalisation on my part at all. I think you wil find though, upon objective reading, that your initial post to me addressed the ‘personalisation’ issue more directly. Indeed, as you pointed out, I had asked for us not to attack one another’s posts. But you had immediately felt the need to let me know that I was inside the mindtrap of the banksters and a mere cog in their wheel :-)
      It is not so. So, with that out of the way, let’s move on……

      @ Josey:- The masters that I have studied and taken to heart are mostly through book form, but their teachings are not diluted by that fact, if you listen intently and try to apply it to your direct life

      1. ‘Think & Grow Rich’ (Cornell version only). Free versions are available in pdf online. This metaphysical classic is a hybrid of self-development, self-sufficiency and creativity/manifestation. Read it regularly :-)
      2. ‘The 48 Laws of Power’. And indeed the Art of Seduction. Not just to wield power, but also to limit its wielding on you!!
      3. ‘The Richest Man in Babylon’: A parable but dog simple and very effective. It will take you back to your early 20′s when you bought a motorbike, like me, instead of a one-bedroom cotttage; because you were earning the price of it every 10 weeks and it was 1994, when money bought stuff. “Spend less than you earn”. “Be very careful where you invest your money and who with!”
      4. ‘The Sacred Path of the Warrior’. Our spend culture is the Setting Sun. FF/FG represent are the Shogun class. Not an easy read, but if you’re ready for it, you’ll get it.
      5. David McWilliams. Not always right, not God, but very possibly the man you’ll meet when you get to the top of the hill of economic enlightenment.
      6. Money and Markets. Weiss & Co
      7. Money Morning
      8. Karl Marx. His heart was in the right place, despite many abominations in his name.
      9. Escaping the Job Trap. Thomas J Elpel http://www.greenuniversity.net/Green_Economics/jobtrap.htm
      10. 50 Self-Help Classics by Butler-Bowdon. It will guide you to more in-depth reads.

      Don’t be afraid to think for yourself. When you don’t, you get the current fiasco we have, called Ireland Inc / Green Jersey etc with a strategic vision hastily titled (they didn’t even have time for that, what with all the building, navel gazing & tax breaks) ‘Ask my a**e”.

  32. Josey says:

    Wills,
    thanks for that. I read somewhere about this creation of money out of thin air but couldn’t get my head around it. I thought there was a rule in fractional reserve banking that a bank was limited to lending out a max of ten times the value of it’s deposits, so for every euro on their books they could create 9 more and lend them out and at interest. So in reality they create something out of nothing and attach interest on it…..ipso facto instant debt to the borrower.

    Am I on the right track?

    @ Ruairi, would love to know who the masters you’ve studied are and any pointers in getting out from beneath the cluches of the Bankers would be much appreciated.

  33. wills says:

    Hi josey,
    Heres a thumbnail sketch,
    you are spot on on the fractional reserve system equation.
    Now whats taking place is this…… this ratio rule 9:1 means
    tne typing in to peoples accounts of numbers that supposedly
    equate with been real cash. It isnt. Any Cash withdrawals are
    from real deposits on hand at the bank. For the most part this
    digital money is transferred from accounts to accounts as transactions are
    made so noone sees 300,000 in cash all they see is numbers
    on screens. Now what happens is this gets out of hand using
    this system and it produces a bubble. A digital money produced
    bubble if you will. In the meantime when the bank is inspected
    to see if its abiding to the capital base ratios you get real money
    coming in the back door to make it look like ratios are in check.

    • Josey says:

      so the tranfer of x billion euro from IL&Perm to Anglo was solely a transfer of digits on a computer screen?

      So why don’t they just add three zeros to everyones account and get us to spend, spend spend?

  34. wills says:

    Hi Josey,
    Getting out from under the bankster system, lets see,
    let me say this is not advice rather intel forwarded on.
    Clear all you debts as fast as you can. Live in the black
    and not in the red. Find out all about the debt/money
    system on which the global banking system is organised
    around origins Bank of England 1694 and follow its
    devolpmental line up to present and understand that
    paper money is receipts for thin air and its value only
    holds on the basis that the indiv you are exchanging it
    to agrees to take it as a form of payment and ask yourself
    why is money mechanics so widespreadly misunderstood.
    Someone somewhere wants it like that, kept quiet.

    • Lorcan says:

      Read The Ascent of Money by Niall Ferguson. Or anything that Martin Lewis has written.

      Is it just me Wills, or does everybody expect your posts to rhyme? (not a criticism!)

  35. Wow. How brilliant a strategy has emerged – register a complaint against Anglo Irish Bank, so that there is a possibility of Anglo’s directors being prosecuted, and hey presto you prevent the Oireachtas committee from taking any more evidence. Investigation now adjourns until all sorts of consultations take place.

    I can only laugh at the brilliance of it. If I was a person who hid loans from shareholders and conspired with auditors to make sure the audited accounts misled everyone, I’d be proud of my advisers. They have knobbled the body politic. Sean Ardagh, FF TD on the committee even went so far as to say the electorate probably wouldn’t want a constitutional referendum to give parliamentary committee the power to compel people to give evidence. That’s another great way to keep secret matters secret.

    In case you have not been listening to the news, this is fresh this afternoon. I feel apoplectic.

    I’d like to commend the person who suggested we register our top 5 measures. At first I thought he was calling for 5 bullet points – because you can’t expect practical politicians to read through all this forum. [Given that Mr Lenihan said he missed a 4 billion move, some may imagine he's not a good reader. I think he was telling an untruth.]

    To restore confidence:

    (1) Political and public service resignations
    (2) Dramatic cuts in all perks for political & public servants
    (3) Immunity from prosecution in return for total cooperation with parliamentary scrutiny and no legal foot dragging
    (4) Every penny saved to be earmarked for literacy & numeracy education
    (5) no repossessions of occupied houses in return for the taxpayer owing a share of equity.

    This might get us to square one…

    Next, to build up a fund of skills for the recovery

    (1) Huge programme of activities designed to cultivate entrepreneurial skills
    (2) Massive humility by member of the old ruling class who actively encourage new thinkers to come up with ideas that challenge the status quo, with a new honour system set up to be at least as impressive as the British one
    (3) An entrepreneurial investment fund with publicly televised Dragon’s Den format
    (4) Huge propaganda campaign designed to identify waste in public and private business organisations, with Irish Presidential Awards like Duke of Edinburgh Awards
    (5) Rapid broadband expansion to facilitate an incredibly innovative social networking project for all the electorate.

    And that might get us on to the playing field…

    Next…

  36. wills says:

    Hi Josey.
    I suspect that the 4billion was digitally transferred into anglo.
    The spend spend spend, “they” i think you mean the people
    behind the banksters who actually own the game, if you look
    at last 15 years you will see i think that spend spend spend
    has been the show on stage. They’ve already put that show on
    and are now ushering in a new production called “contact free
    money”

  37. VincentH says:

    The micro-electric thing is a no brainer, where even if you cannot send back into the grid just now it just makes sense.
    The money from property, is largely pointless. What and when would you measure.
    Refining of oil was tried here before and was at the time cutting edge. It ended up blowing itself to bits. But even as it was being built, it was becoming uneconomic. It needed a pipeline to its main market. Anyway it is and will be easier to ship the small amounts of oil here than large to Europe.
    Money in primary schools, hmmm. It cannot do any harm anyway.
    And it is voting with our hearts that got us to this place, a bit more head might not go astray.

  38. wills says:

    Hi lorcan.
    Vway funny, taking in good spirit.
    Niall Ferguson breaks it down brilliantly and
    can i also recommend his book entitled
    “The Cash Nexus”

  39. Tim says:

    Ruairi, You want 5, you get 5:

    1) Change the PS pension levy to make it more equitable or scrap it, altogether, and apply a fair and equitable tax levy across all sectors, instead of the one in place.
    2) Take the €7bn back from the banks and give government bank drafts, made out to the respective lenders, to all of the people in default. (Homes only, not developments of holiday homes). They then pay the banks, get out of trouble and the banks get their money anyway. The markets then see less risk in the bank of toxicity.
    3) Cap all salaries at €100k and divert anything over that to the exchequer for community and social improvement, including education and health, care of the elderly, transport infrastructure and green technologies.
    4) Remove the administration of expenses from the control of the Oireachtas members and their civil servants. They cannot continue to decide their own incomes. Alter the Constitution to place this under the aegis of the President, who would preside over a special body to avouch these expenses.
    5) Remove the Tax-Exile provision ENTIRELY and also the stud-fees exemption from the equestrian industry and Artist earning over €1m pa.

  40. SamB says:

    Do you honestly believe that anyone capable of earning over 100k is going to hang around and let the government take the rest? Get real! Also, communism is a busted flush – even before this little capitalist hiccup occurred.

    • Tim says:

      SamB, “communism” has never been tried; much less “a busted flush”.

      • SamB says:

        In denial? What was the Soviet Union then – a model of democracy?

        • Tim says:

          SamB, The Soviet Union failed because the boys at the top acted like those we have in Ireland – me-feiners, the lot of them.

          That’s not communism – it’s the BEST form of capitalism there is: make the little guy believe he is working for his brother, while you “cream” off the top.

          Ingenious!

          … but …… “Capitalism”.

  41. wills says:

    Hi josey,
    “Cashless society” is a misdirect, it implies you dont need
    cash everything is free. Plus contact free money is what
    it states money in use but not physical so no contact.

  42. Tim says:

    Paul, you are contributing to making “this a fine forum”, yourself. Contributors are here from all over the country – and the world; even one person, temporarily in Malaga and very annoyed with me for being a member of FF, contributes from there. Contribution here, I think, is good because it gives ideas for people to spark off of one another and that can create synergy that COULD help to lead us out of impending disaster.

    Could there be anything more important, that sets the human being apart as a species, than our ability to imagine, generate ideas and then communicate them widely? I think not.

    Let’s “keep at it”, and try Ruairi’s “5 points”.

    We may tear strips off eachother over our five in a few days, but I think we should all return here to do that, regardless of what David writes for tomorrow. Let’s return to this article to check everyone’s “5 points” and bounce them around. Say, let’s all revisit this article to do that, popping back and forth from tomorrow’s new article, until next Sunday’s one?

    Let’s not drop the ideas here, regardless of tomorrow.

  43. AndrewGMooney says:

    I haven’t read the ‘comments to date’. Too scared. So I may, once again, stray from the McClure ordained Group Think on this article. If I do so, can you all find it in your hearts to forgive me? I came here looking for acceptance, to finally rid myself of the horror of being a ‘plastic Mad Paddy from Brum’. And all I do is antagonise the clever playground swots. I’m, like, oh my gosh! waaaay too Peaches Geldof scared to check back on previous threads to see what scoldings have been dished out. I’m sooo sorry. Truly sorry. I‘ve almost lost my nerve about commenting in case I cause offence again. *rollseyes*.

    Yeah, how likely is that. Bollix. Bollocks. Winston Churchill-Here we go!

    The Chinese hexagram for ‘change’ reads as ‘crisis/danger’. And as ‘opportunity’.
    Raul Emmanuel, O’bama’s sidekick says: “You never want a serious crisis to go to waste”.

    I agree with Mr Dumas: Ireland is not, repeat NOT a basket case. Whether you’re talking about it’s cultural, economic or political future: The best is yet to come, by far. That’s not to say that there aren’t ‘basket-case 1916 FF/FG elements’ on parade at the moment. From the shameless whores of the banking brothels to the even more egregious ethical trespassers of the clerical mafia with it’s resurgent child abuse scandals. But let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater! A nation’s future is not pre-ordained by the sins of it’s past dalliance with Hitler. Nor with it’s current fixations with carcinogenic financiers and bishopry.

    David’s article really gets to the challenge of responding to this elemental crisis, rather than just reacting to it. Who, exactly, will be representin’ for Ireland in April? Not at the Eurovision heats, but at the G20? Will Ireland’s ‘special case’ be pleaded by the ‘balanced budget fanatics’ of the Benelux and Germany? God help you all if that’s the case. I assume other Atlanticist high-rollin alliances are being prepared behind the scenes? I’ll ring Darling tonight. He’s left 20 msgs on the old Blackberry, bless him. And he and Gordo owe me so many, many favours for advices previously rendered.

    Preserve employment? Oh yes! But it’s really better described as ‘strategically defending training and investment to date from a Eurozone-Yank FDI perspective’. I’m sure DMcW can do all sorts of NPV calculations from various vantage points of 2010, 2012, 2020, to show that uncontrolled/uncontrollable debt deflation is, quite simply, an arrogant and ridiculous waste of Trans-Generational Equity.

    This corrupt Boomer Generation has no right WHATSOEVER to throw tantrums, have a diva hissy fit, and resort to fundamentalist economic nonsenses of Austrian Purity. I’ve previously suggested the triage ward of A&E as a motif for this crisis, but it also describes the discordant voices on this blog, clinging to collapsed economic sureties as the world warps and weaves into another unforeseen economic reality zone.

    If you cut off the funding for educational advancement for your children (or your neighbour’s children) you better have a fc-ukin good excuse when they come a rioting. Which they will. Poll Tax? You ain’t seen nothing yet!

    No one is ever ‘redundant’. People die, but even then, there is no Endedness. People are always valuable. No-one is ever ‘unemployed’. Everyone always has a contribution to make, even if it’s as trivial as picking up junk food litter in the park and thereby impressing a hithertofore surly disempowered teenager.

    By all means be a mentor to business, but the real business is in preserving civil society as this ethical and economic crisis moves to resolution. Who’s taking time to talk to an isolated elder?

    No one is in this on their own. Everyone is in it together, innit? Afternoon t.v is just a phase everyone goes through. And what’s wrong with 20 cups of tea and 18 bags of cheesy Wotsits inbetween career opportunities? Many great comedy sketches are thus born.

    From Grameen to Sharia banking, there are many alternative models of social and financial entrepreneurial energy to connect with. And in time, the fire-breathing uber capitalist Dragon Dream will re-emerge from it’s lair. I want Market Virility preserved for my children, children’s children, etc.

    If this comment appears rambling and disjointed, so be it. I have just spent SEVEN HOURS returning from London on a journey that should have taken 2.5 hours. With my children, 200 passengers and one stinking toilet. This could never happen in Ireland, could it?

    This is a necessary ethical crisis presenting as an ‘economic discontinuity event’. Those cultures, peoples, languages and societies that emerge stronger will be those that have very deep roots and antecedents which have, albeit surreptitiously, prepared them for this: The Mother of All Crises. Check out the Swedish Experience of the Great Depression. From that crisis, it’s whole raison d’etre was born.

    I would, respectfully, suggest that Ireland (Eire, Erin, whatever) is much better placed than most to emerge blinking into the light ahead of the pack. I’m an optimistic, glass half-full kind of guy. When it was fashionable to be a Pollyanna, I was an Ides of March. Now, when Everyone and his Aunt is predicting/pretending apocalypse, it’s certainly time to move on to a post-collapse scenario agenda.

    David McWilliams is right to move out of the path of the lemmings. History will show he is swimming Downstream with Creative Currencies of cultural, social, political and economic renewal. IM-not-so-HO!

    But what will Malcolm think of this? *ponders thoughtfully-rollseyes*

    “By the banks of the Liffey, I awoke and stretched
    And in the dawn’s early light, once again: I retched.
    Dublin is Blessed! Dublin is Blessed!
    So let’s build a different dream instead”

    In the midst of life, we are In Debt: Etcetera!

    AndrewGMooney
    20:12 20/12 2012

    PS: Has anyone really thought through the likely peak-oil, peak-credit/debt consequences if the US/UK/China reflation actually fails? Never mind Kunstler cluster fc-uk, think about Limerick.

    • Tim says:

      AndrewGMooney, I was looking forward to you “weighing-in” on this one – you didn’t disappoint (not that you care, I know, I know; but, still, you didn’t, so there! and thank you, etc.) Sorry you got caught on the hades-eye flight, especially if the children are young (mine are 8 and 10, so I can empathise).

      Don’t be afraid to read the “comments to date” – they’re ok, most of them; and you may enjoy the musings of some new-arrivals. I will be very interested to see your replies, if you can do so, given that we will have a new article to dissect tomorrow.

      I agree that Ireland is not a basket-case and don’t bury Malcolm – chastise all you want, but I believe he means well. He often makes valuable posts, because they cause us to (re) think.

      I have always believed that the most important voice in the room is the voice of dissent, because it challenges us to think/change or, re-affirm our position. Disagreement is healthy.
      “Have a go”, by all means, but don’t “write-off”. (I humbly suggest, sir) *bows*.

    • goinghome says:

      A focus on progress is very important, and indeed even under this black cloud, we have made enough to see that It’s just not like the old days anymore…

      – Folk Lore
      Next time you’re washing your hands and the water temperature isn’t just how you like it, think about how things used to be. Here are some facts about the 1500s.

      Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and still smelled pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body odour.

      Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children–last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying, “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.”

      Houses had thatched roofs–thick straw–piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the dogs, cats and other small animals (mice, bugs) lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof-hence the saying “It’s raining cats and dogs.”

      There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. Hence, a bed with big posts and a sheet hung over the top afforded some protection. That’s how canopy beds came into existence.

      The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence the saying “dirt poor.”

      The wealthy had slate floors that would get slippery in the winter when wet, so they spread thresh (straw) on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on, they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed in the entranceway, hence, a “thresh hold.”

      In those old days, they cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They ate mostly vegetables and did not get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner, leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day.

      Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been there for quite awhile. Hence the rhyme “peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old.”

      Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made them feel quite special.

      When visitors came over, they would hang up their bacon to show off. It was a sign of wealth that a man “could bring home the bacon.” They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and “chew the fat.”

      Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food, causing lead poisoning and death. This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400 years or so, tomatoes were considered poisonous.

      Most people did not have pewter plates, but had trenchers, a piece of wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Often trenchers were made from stale bread, which was so old and hard that they could be used for quite some time. Trenchers were never washed and a lot of times, worms and mold got into the wood and old bread. After eating off wormy, moldy trenchers, one would get “trench mouth.
      Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or “upper crust.”

      Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a “wake.”

      England is old and small and the local folks started running out of places to bury people. So they would dig up coffins and would take the bones to a “bone-house” and reuse the grave. When reopening these coffins, 1 out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside an they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on the wrist of the corpse, lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night (the “graveyard shift”) to listen for the bell; thus, someone could be “saved by the bell” or was considered a “dead ringer.” ‘ -

      Looking forward then as well, try http://www.soundstrue.com/mysteryof2012/?page_id=237
      ; )

  44. pera says:

    Before discussing the pay in public sector and the pension levy. I realize that the ideology that I grew up with is different than what would be the norm in Ireland. My views are probably strongly influenced by a social-democratic conditioning. It took me very little time to adapt to life in Ireland, but it has taken me considerably longer time to fully get to grips with the underlying ideology in Ireland. I tried to get a better understanding by reviewing the webpages of the different parties, and found the information available to be somewhat lacking in content. But at the time, the parties with a consistent ideology, seemed to be SF and the greens. Labour which I would have thought would be closest to me, were probably too busy to prepare a partnership with FG, so they also seemed to have a bland ideology only useful for keeping status quo. But things seems to be changing now.

    Pension levy: I personally believe that the uproar about public sector is a red herring in the debate. I do not find it unreasonable that that someone should get 50% of their salary as a pension. I do object to people getting a golden handshake of 1.5 times their salary tax free when they retire, and is that dependent on the time of service? 40 years you get it, 30 years you get nothing?

    But I do believe, from my limited understanding of the system, that the pension system has serious flaws. I am not sure if I am able to make my point clear, but it is important to view the government as any other regular employer in the context of the next paragraphs

    From my understanding everyone in Ireland is entitled to a state pension , 10k a year? This is most likely a pay as you go system, which is the standard in most european countries. Then everyone has the possibilty of getting an additional pension on top of that. In some cases the employee contributes all and in some cases the employer contributes. In the case of the public sector, the government as the employer provides a pension. You would hope that this is done by all employers, but at least by the government. But the problem in this case is that I do not think that the government has taken provisions for this. So that this part of the pension has become a pay as you go system as well. With the golden handshake included, I think the government should have taken provisions of probably 10-15% on top of the salary. This should probably have been taken into the account in the cost employing PS workers a long time ago. It should have been separated in the budget, just like any responsible business would/should have done

    I think there should be a cap on how much pension you should get, say 50% of your salary up to 100k, meaning if you made 300k a year, your pension from the government is still going to be 50k, and drop the golden handshakes. With the golden handshakes and the pension, people will not have any incentive to change jobs, or move into public sector at a later stage in life. The pension becomes a golden handcuff. And if you retire and then start working again, reduce the pension, by whatever they are making in their new career (maybe leaving a bit of the pension to encourage work participation) and return it to normal when they have stopped generating extra income

    With the pension levy the government is doing nothing to correct this situation. I have not heard the government say “The government as a responsible employer, provides its workers with a pension. The employees contribute 5% of their wages to the pension plan and we as the employer are providing 10%” Lets face it, it is a specific PS worker tax, that is designed in such a way that it will not affect the pensions on senior government officials coming close to retirement. It is completely absurd that someone who is most likely only going to qualify for the minimum state pension still have to pay 3.8% of their income in a pension they will never see

    Another thing that is completely absurd is that after 50k or so you dont pay PRSI. I am familiar with the argument that you only get fixed social benefits regardless of what you earned, but in my view thats not how a society works.

    The public sector wages are way too high in Ireland. I heard on the radio that there were 4000 public sector workers making between 120-150k and 5000 making more than 150k. I dont know if these figures include the people working i semi-state companies. But I can not think of any other european country who would have these figures, regardless of population. I think there are several third world countries were they probably have such an elite working in the government. I dont know how to bring this back to a realistic level. But introducing a new tax band could be one way to go. A direct cut in pay, would probably cause a legal wrangle that would employ generations of solicitors. But the question is, how did this happen?

    As for wages in private sector I do not believe the government should dictate salaries, unless they are owned by the state or have received backing or funding from the government. I do however believe that the government should take corporate governance and regulation seriously, which I think could help abolish the cronyism (ok iknow i am being a bit naive ) which has allowed these insane salaries to certain professional classes and directors

    As for the constant attacks on the minimum wage. A country with aspirations of becoming a smart economy, should not have a problem with the current minimum wage, and it should be noted that the cost of employing someone in ireland is low compared to other european countries, even if the actual wage might be higher.

    • Tim says:

      Pera, …. where to begin?

      Spin and downright lies from government, through the media ar the reasons why the PS pension system is difficult to understand. Let’s begin with the spin/lies?

      1) Public servants get free pensions – not so. Apart from the fat-cat-elite, ALL ps workers pay for their pensions for 40 years @ approx. 6.5%
      2) Public servants’ pensions are (“Rolls-Royce”) better than private sector pensions – that is partially true, but disingenuous. PS pensions LOOK cheaper, because they are FORCED to pay for them over 40 years (the “spread” makes them look cheaper, but the overall amount paid in is relative). Most Private sector workers, statistically, don’t start contributing to their pension until they are in their 40s (OF COURSE, those are going to be expensive!)
      3) The PS pensions are a free “perk” – not so! Because of 1) and 2) above, they are the opposite, especially when you are young, new to the job and earning only €15k.
      4) The PS pensions are a drain on the exchequer – not so; they are contributed to over 40 years, the government (as “employer”) pays nothing into them and pays no “employers’ PRSI”. It simply pays the pensions out of “current-spend”. That is why Charlie McGreavy set up the Pension Fund (which has been “raided” to bail out the banks).

      Get that! It is the Public Service Pension Reserve Fund that has paid for the re-capitalisation of the banks.

      5) The PS pension goes on forever – untrue. This gets complicated: A male PS, retiring at 65, will usually die within 3 years, thus never reclaiming what he paid into his pension; if he has paid an extra 1.5% for the “Widows and Orphans’ scheme, (which, since 1995 is compulsory, even if you never marry, or have children, are gay, lesbian, infertile) his wife (Not “Partner”, or “Children”) will receive HALF of his pension for 10 years. Now, his pension was half his finishing salary (if he paid into it for 40 years), 40/80ths of his finishing salary on the longest pay-scale in Europe, of about €60km, so, while alive, he gets a pension of €30k (taxed); when he dies, as he surely will, his wife, (only if he has one) will get HALF of that again, for 10 years, so €15k (taxed, only if she has other income to raise her above the tax threshold). After FOUR more years, she gets NOTHING; his children get nothing.

      I know, few men are teachers/nurses; and most men die before women, but you get the picture.

      6) The Public sector pensions have been “beefed-up” by benchmarking – not so! The 2005 benchmarking exercise, actually, DISCOUNTED PS salaries by 12%, because that is what the b’marking body reckoned the PS pensions were worth over and against the private setor salaries. So, even BEFORE the levy, PS workers have been docked pay in lieu of pensions – to the tune of 12%. That;s why the 2005 benchmarking body delivered a 0% pay increase to the public sector, frontline worker.

      7) The PS pension, like the salary, costs the government virtually NOTHING, because it nearly ALL goes back to the exchequer in direct and indirect taxation.

      This, actually, is the main point of your post that I wished to address. The government, as an employer, is VERY different to a private-sector emplyer. Can you imagine a private sector employer who hires you and he does NOT have to pay the 12.5% employers’ PRSI? The PAYE tax, he keeps – never pays it at all. Out of the NET salary he pays you, the VAT on your ESB bill goes to your boss; the excises duty/vrt/VAT you pay on the car you bought that gets you to work goes to your boss; the excise duty/ VAT you pay on your petrol to go to work goes to your boss; the VAT you pay on your ESB bill goes to your boss; the tax on profits at Tesco/ tax on the till-girl’s wages/PRSI goes to your boss, etc., etc., … ad nausiem ……

      The government is NOT, at all, comparable to a private sector employer, Pera!

      I’ll bet you any money you like, that they would love to be!

      How could anyone, even, think so?

      I know that ther is so MUCH more that I should say on this matter and that will, robably, have to add details for days….. but, that is the bare bones of the matter.

      I hope this helps you understand.

      Kind regards, Tim.

  45. Garry says:

    1) Food Security. Lobby with our EU partners to show what would be the effect on the continent should the food industry collapse like the financial industry has. Take whatever steps are necessary to ensure it doesn’t with or without EU support.
    2) Energy Security. Build a nuclear power plant, this will take over a decade. We need a new energy backbone to reduce dependence on oil/gas. Run it separately from ESB but state owned, with simple rules for all to access the grid. If any money left over spare money look at wave. Let wind compete or die; it will be useful for small scale local production and may create some jobs but let it compete… Cheap reliable energy is most important.
    3) Finance&Public Service/Health/Education. Halve the public sector budget while keeping the same numbers employed. By outsourcing all bullshit functions (standards setting, quangos, think tanks) to Brussels and then ignoring it (like the French do with food regulations). Introduce the maximum wage across the public sector. The HSE managers can become cleaners or be sacked. Introduce an “Eat your own dogfood” law Basically public servants should be almost forced to use the public health and education systems. Indeed this should be virtually mandatory everywhere… Absolutely no subsidization of the private systems by the public purse so the effect is these systems are then the preserve of the super rich who pay super money for them. Making this happen is key to getting value for money. The minister for health doesnt give a f*** about it, she might if she knew she will one day end up on a trolley in casualty in Beaumont instead of a private room in Blackrock, the same with every other person whos being paid by the HSE.
    4) Housing. Reintroduce a squatters law. Basically, nobody should be sleeping rough if we have a few hundred thousand empties, if nobody is living there, what’s the problem? Shutdown all developer bailouts, Wakeup… the houses are already built!!!!
    5) Enterprise. Provide small practical help and get out of the way. e.g. office space, zero tax for startups for first X years ….. whatever is low cost doesn’t get in the way. Dont provide grants (or bureaucracy to award them) focus on letting others do this efficiently and rewarding success via tax breaks.
    Leave FDI as is we seem to have ability in attracting this.

    • Tim says:

      Garry, oooooh, I REALLY like your 3!

      • Ruairi says:

        Hi Garry, I love your Point 5 for enterprise re office space.

        We read that there’s 25% office space redundant now in Dublin. Scary.

        And in towns I know well like Portlaoise, Tullamore and Mullingar, countless (I mean most) office blocks (and quite a number of semi-Ds) were rented out by the HSE. But do you think there was any incubation space or even straightforward business address services for would-be entrepreneurs? No. You only get a hotdesk if you’re a HPSU; in which case you are on track to VC type money anyway and don’t usually need state assistance, unless its in the form of hard cash (tax or employment related) supports. Now the CEBs just offer soft supports, many of which are not required; e.g. networking meetups that usually end up being a feeding place for some chosen party to feed on the precious time of one-man shows; instead of bringing real value to the attendees. Of course, the CEB mentoring is one noteworthy aspect. You can strike it lucky.

        Does anyone realise how hard it is to get a simple business address service outside of Dublin? Any entrepreneur could name the 10 things they needed when starting up. Longwinded pep talks are NOT on that list :-) As Garry says, get out out of the way of those who CAN.

    • Deco says:

      { “The HSE managers can become cleaners or be sacked” }

      Well actually a cleaner performs and extremely important function. And I am not sure that your average Senior titleholder in the HSE Hierarchy would be able to handle such responsibility. A lifetime of experience being not held responsible for anything is very very hard to correct :)))

      Just look at the performance of P. Sneery in the Financial Regulator – he has a lifetime of experience of doing nothing about irregularities – exactly the wrong person to deal with a crisis and a downpour of irregular behaviour in a range of banks !!!

  46. Johnny Dunne says:

    Getting back to the theme of David’s article, here is a website I know of which could provide the infrastructure for the proposed matching service between ‘unemployed’ with experience and start-up projects – http://www.flexitimers.com !

    I sent these ‘5’suggestions to the Finance Minister before the budget to help stimulate the economy and create jobs – it seems 2 of the 5 them have been adopted at later ‘committee’ stage and the 2 others partially but without the impact ? The ‘tax package’ if implemented would create economic activity / jobs by effectively generating a significant amount of investment in new and existing multinational and indigenous companies exporting. The key is these measures would need to be ‘PROMOTED’ effectively so the local and international business community make investments in Ireland which create the employment opportunities…..

    1. As part of the ‘scheme’ for the 6 Irish banks set up a new fund managed by the banks which would invest in 2009 over €500 million in export oriented businesses with HQ in Ireland.
    Impact : Ireland will be the ‘mecca’ for companies all over Europe and the world setting up and developing emerging knowledge intensive businesses
    2. Companies certified by Enterprise Ireland (and Country Enterprise Boards) who have not made a profit due to investment in developing an internationally provide a rebate on ‘Income’ Tax.
    Impact : This would allow these companies survive longer especially where they are finding it difficult to raise funds to develop into a profitable sustainable enterprise with employees.
    3. Reduce Capital gains on Capital gains for Venture Capital Investment funds where they have a significant operation in Ireland.
    Impact : The worldwide expertise in venture capital investment relocates and therefore Ireland is a centre for investment ie ‘Silicon Isle’
    4. Introduce the Remittance tax scheme
    Impact : The best talents will have a tax incentive to reside in Ireland.
    5. Reduce corporation tax to 11% from 12.5% sending a message out to set up business in Ireland by using the quote below to advertise worldwide why Ireland is the best place for businesses.
    Impact : Instead of less than 50 new companies adding to the 1,000 MNC’s in Ireland. There would be the potential to add 100’s maybe as many as 1,000 new MNC’s to the list of IDA clients.

  47. Tim,
    Yes. I support your suggestion that we carry forward the ideas throughout the week, and see what emerges. We may yet be able to bring them all together into a “100 ideas to try before you resign”.

    Perhaps there is a skilled bank person who could do us the service of presenting back the ideas in an engaging format. Like getting ready to hark it in the outside world…

    Otherwise this could be community service…

  48. Paul Lee says:

    5 Free Business Ideas!

    Don’t start a business that is capital intensive, as one commentator mentioned previously (can’t find the post now so apologies.) Don’t give up any social welfare entitlements until you see that you have a steady cashflow over six months. Nothing dodgy, just don’t take anything out of the company or sole trader account until you are self sufficient.

    Don’t advertise with Google adwords unless you’re a betting enthusiast. Use Citylocal.ie – A guy I know who can do amazing things to get you first on Google search for a very reasonable cost. Sorry about the plug. Don’t sign up for Goldenpages.ie. They are rubbish and don’t understand the internet.

    5 business ideas:

    1. Set up an online building materials and general contractors costs comparison website. Just crying out to be done. Capital costs? Laptop, broadband, a bit of consultation with local enterprise board to get low cost or free advice from experts, and then a lot of legwork and patience. Get sponsorship.
    2. Teach people how to use free Google software: schools, VECs evening courses or to people who want to set themselves up as hotdesk assistants for struggling startups or SMEs. Show people about all of the great free stuff thats available online. FAS might help… Worth a shot.
    3. Team up with local hotels to offer training venues. Team up with training companies to deliver the product or deliver it yourself. Get the hotels to do the marketing! Costs? Laptop, broadband and Projector/ screen.
    4. Teach people how to use the internet. Cost? Laptop, broadband and Projector/ screen, time, shoeleather and patience. Show people how to hunt for shopping bargains, set up facebook profiles, linkedin profiles.
    5. Start online business networks. Ask businesses what they want. Set up their linkedin profiles, facebook.

    The basic things to think about at the moment:

    1. There are a lot of businesses/ people looking to utilise their buildings that are lying idle and will do very reasonable rental deals.
    2. There is a lot of extremely cheap or free technology available to download or use online, and businesses/ people who would maybe kill for it don’t know (a) about its existence, (b) how to use it or (c) how to access it.
    3. In 1929 there was no internet. Big difference.

  49. BrendanW says:

    GREETINGS from Malaga , so you are looking for five principles to get us moving again, why not wait till the Ten principle men within the 300 million insider share dealing names are released then watch the flood gates open . Five points. 1. Cap Bankers and ALL SEMI STATE salaries. 2. No tax on new companies or on new posts created for year one with reduced tax in year two. 3. Ex Pats be allowed buy holiday home at 20% above cost value, on registering House first four years holiday lettings tax free. 4.Indexed pensions to be taken from all civil and public servants 5. Renewable energy material and products to be promoted . 6 Develop our Farming to intense levels for expanding Middle Eastern markets .
    We have several methods for moving forward . Firstly we have to learn the principle of Honesty .

You must log in to post a comment.