What makes a good European country? According to many of our European neighbours — specifically the French and Germans — Ireland post-Lisbon, can’t be regarded as a good member of the EU club because we are ungrateful and unpredictable.
More egregiously, the spin is that the Irish people are in someway intent on blocking enlargement. The storyline continues that, given how much we gained from the EU, how could such a nation of malcontent ingrates deprive our eastern neighbours of their opportunity?
Do you go along with that view? Certainly some of the crestfallen ‘Yes’ campaigners are using similar arguments, toeing the French line that “eaten bread is soon forgotten”. How could we possibly trouser the cash and then give them the two fingers?
It is easy to see the world this way, particularly if you regard politics as one giant inter-country game of treaties and committees. In this world view — one usually formulated by over-educated, risk-averse courtesans — people do not matter. The only thing that counts for the Eurocratic worldview is summits, leaders and the elite.
But Europe is about more than countries; it is about people. It is about 400 million individual people whose ambitions, aspirations and lives can be improved by the opportunities that economic integration affords.
If you take this people- centred view of things, it is interesting to contrast Doubting Ireland and Enthusiastic France. French politicians have conveniently forgotten that while they might hob-nob with their Polish counterparts, France does not allow Polish immigrants to work freely in France. So France talks the language of solidarity but freezes out the people that this very solidarity is supposed to help. What breathless hypocrisy!
While France threw up barriers, Ireland on the other hand opened its doors to hundreds of thousands of ordinary Poles, Lithuanians and Latvians whose lives have been greatly enhanced by the opportunities we have given them.
Ireland is a proper European partner to the Joe Soaps from Warsaw, Riga and Vilnius, while the French and Germans have closed their doors to them.
This distinction between a Europe of the peoples — the Irish view — and a Europe of the elites — the old Europe view — goes to the heart of our differing approaches.
So, for example, the French foreign minister claimed indignantly that over the 35 years of EU membership the Irish people have received €33bn in aid from the EU. This is true.
But because Ireland, unlike Germany or France, allowed the people from the accession states to come and live and work freely here, we have given back to the East in wages and opportunities.
Let’s do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let’s say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let’s say €25,000. That’s a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year.
As we are now going into our fifth year of open borders, it is likely that Ireland has put back more cash in the pockets of poor European immigrants in five years that the EU has given us in 35 years.
We have also provided an open platform for people to come and go without recourse to registering with the local authorities or without the need to be monitored by identity cards. Furthermore, the Irish Ryanair, not the EU Commission, has been the single greatest force behind actual integration, flying the poor people of the East cheaply all around the Union. We’ve yet to see a low-fares French carrier demean itself to carry ordinary citizens to work.
So, not only have we given hundreds of thousands of eastern Europeans a chance to fulfil the promise of the EU and have their children educated here, but given that the propensity to save is higher among immigrants than the rest of us, billions of euros earned in Ireland are likely to have been sent home to Eastern Europe to build opportunity there.
Only Ireland, Britain and Sweden — the three countries most regarded as sceptical on Europe — have shown real, material solidarity with the poor of Eastern Europe.
While the French, Germans and Italians might lecture others on being good Europeans, they don’t stick to the spirit of the treaties they sign.
The question then arises again: which is the better European country; the one that blocks the freedom of mobility but accords to the fine rhetoric of the ‘grand projet’, or the one that allows free movement of people but might be more quizzical about the rhetoric?
Go down to your local Spar or Centra and ask the Polish or Lithuanian working there (who would not be freely allowed to work in France or Germany) who has done more for them — France or Ireland?
Also ask them, who made xenophobia part of the last referendum? It was in France not Ireland that the anti-EU vote made a big deal of the threat of the ‘Polish Plumber’. The ever-so-European French played the race card last time they voted with the ‘Yes’ side, ensuring the ‘No’ side that a ‘Yes’ vote would keep the Poles off French building sites.
The problem for the elite is that Ireland has given back money to the EU, but just not to them. We have given the poor an opportunity to work which is precisely what an economic union is all about.
Tomorrow morning, when Brian Cowen is facing the music and feels he is dealing with a meagre hand, he should remind his tormentors, such as former communist Mr Kouchner, that Ireland has given back to European workers in wages far more than we have taken in direct subsidies. Ireland is accepting in eight times more EU immigrants per head than France.
There are many ways of looking at Europe. Some of our neighbours are ‘top down’ Europeans, pushing through treaties in parliament, not consulting their electorates. This makes them look powerful at summits.
There are others who are happy to enhance ordinary peoples’ lives but have to face the electoral music at every turn.
We are the ‘bottom-up’ Europeans — the more honest and less hypocritical EU members.
If you want to see what European integration is for ordinary people, don’t watch the pomp and ceremony of the leaders’ summit tomorrow, go to the arrivals hall at Dublin airport.
There, amid the stonewashed denims, shaved heads and East European biker jackets, you will see the true hope that Europe brings. It is a chance of a better life for the immigrants and their children. It is the chance to bring money home, to plan and to invest in the future. This is what Europe is all about.
Immigrants are never good for an economy- it has been proved times over that they cost more to keep than they contribute….and they cause havoc.
They are shunted around as a sinister political smokescreen- while they cause confusion on the ground among a population- breaking up communities and feeding resentment, the real power elites at the top profit and prosper while attention is diverted away from their activities. A deliberate and divisive plan…and this is what happens…especially now in the EU.
Immigrants are always happier at home, because as the Irish well know that is where they would prefer to be, rather than being forced out. Any sensible EU policy would always be about keeping them at Home. So don’t listen a jot about phoney liberal freundschaft. It never figures where exploitation for profit is concerned.
Now is that Like Robert Mugabe enough? wait a minute…is that the fat black guy!!?
Jim Hardy – I honestly hope that you are joking in your last post but fear not. Your assertions are utterly groundless.
How do you reconcile your xenophobic perspective with the experience of the Irish in America? Do you believe that John F Kennedy, Micheal Dell, Police Chief Bratton and countless others have made no contribution to the US? Do you really believe that they would all prefer to reside here?
Utter rubbish
Right Jim. I’m sure you’ll provide some links that it has been ‘proved times over’ that ‘Immigrants are never good for an economy’
Have you ever heard of the USA?
A stunningly ridiculous comment.
I wonder are we mixing the terms “immigrants” with “economic refugees”. If so, the John Hardy has a point. But then, the whole notion of getting the same thing for cheaper has always driven the search for lower labour costs and its consequent injustices – outsourcing to India/ China etc, using cheap immigrants etc. Certainly, no qualified nuclear engineer would leave their country to work as a bricklayer in another unless economics necessitated it. The net effect is that everyone looses except a few guys who get to pocket a larger margin.
@John Hardy
The fact that America exists destroys your “point” utterly.
That NY Times article is a particularly bad one. Its written from a Turkish accession point of view and lambasts the “beer-soaked” and “ungrateful Irish” for holding back the EU and delaying Turkey’s accession to the EU, something that seemingly George Bush is supporting. I would rate that article at 0 out of 10 as it does not represent the view of the people in the US that know anything about the EU, which is most likely not many of course.
Ire-in-exile> So now the Swedes wander around with their ridiculous 100krona notes, (11euros) which they need to change anytime they wish to leave the country…and now it has sunk in that they perhaps made a incredible error.
This is a misuderstanding of what the euro currency is all about. The Swedes retained the right to their own currency and can set their own interest rates, which ironically is an eceonomic lever which David regularly harks on about. It is nothing to do with mere exchanging of money. Ireland uses the euro so our interest rates are set by the ECB, of which we are a member. The ECB doesnt set interest rates that are optimal for Ireland’s economy, however there are other levers which we can use to manage our economic cycles, some of which may be unpleasant of course for the labour market and people. Our government though is culpable recently for not using some of these levers. For example, increasing income tax rates during the good times to dampen consumer expenditure. Not popular but needed. And there are many other levers as well at our disposal. There are many advantages of being inside the euro, and with prudent use of the levers other than interest rates, we should be able to manage fine.
Some other interesting articles on the EU:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11580732
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0c9a964e-3bc8-11dd-9cb2-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7238e13e-3d46-11dd-bbb5-0000779fd2ac.html
MK
If Turkey join the EU we will have a border with Iraq and then the “mandate” from the Lisbon treaty to go into that never ending war.
Indeed my post was tongue in cheek- but there is a real point in it, as Philip has pointed out the difference is in the term economic refugees rather than immigrants.
The USA does not figure in this- that was an open country, a free for all , not an old established Nation luring in cheap labour but hoping still that the influx will not disrupt or endanger the national heritage or character (of course it will).
This is about economics, or more so- treating people purely with an economic interest in mind- This is the current acceptable ethic of capitalism which is leading us to ruin – where the profit justifies the means. Nothing else matters. Thus we now have the collapse of a falsely inflated economy in Ireland, and war, pollution and corruption the world over. Everyone scrambling not for a better deal- but a cheaper one…and it doesn’t matter who you are, what you are or where you are from- you are ripe for exploitation. (and European jobs go to India/China etc.)
My first post was very much against this article by David, because I don’t believe it is true, and most comments support this.
But I am very much behind his previous post that states that people need to have a value of patriotism and common solidarity as a measure against crass commercialism-.and this applies to all nations of Europe, and the current EU crisis stems from confusion and suspicion on this very point!
An economy by it’s nature is volatile, changeable and utterly unreliable and it is immensely foolhardy and dangerous to base a political system on business alone- essentially this is what people are afraid of about Europe.
Nobody is clear at all if they aren’t just being sold a House for a million euros that will be worth 100,000 in 5years time…and they should remain well suspicious as the Irish have rather quickly and painfully come to learn…
Any political system, confederation or union should be guided by what is best for the people- and economics should be subordinate to that aim- not the other way around…The right thing to do is to prevent a situation were economic refugees are forced to exist in the first place?
Pollyanna. We have what we have. We can’t prevent economic immigration. It would be like asking the tide to come in on time.
If the shoe was on the other foot and we had emigration again would you be bleating the same?
What this comes down to is the perception that all immigration is from “poor” countries and that “they are taking our jobs”.
Most immigration to Ireland is from the UK not from Poland. The Poles are just more obvious. Secondly we are not as educated as the average immigrant with only one in 3 of us with Third Level and nearly half of them. We are blaming the immigrant for the abject failure of the losers in the Government THAT WE ELECTED.
Instead of booting them out at election time we chose the passive aggressive move and hit them at treaty time.
I think Cowen and party will rise like a phoenix from the ashes of this NO and will be regarded as a hero and an example to the rest of the EU how citizens can be managed in a direct way. Fianna Fail will start an EU wide philosophy of cute hoorism which will probably need new words invented in most other languages.
They’ll just do a variation of the “I told you so”…economic outlook is dim because ye fcekers said no…but if you really want…we might have a go at that referendummy thing again…but that may do a right job on the credibility of government – so people’s short term memory needs time to be occupied by other more wholesome non anti gov stuff . Timing is key. In about 6 weeks this will be forgotten. Another jump in the jobless stats and that Yes looks mighty attractive. Gimme a ballot sheet quick!
Lord save us from this. This would make an Athiest pray.
We deserve the losers we get. I am adamant that we get what we vote for.
Or in the case of Europe we get what they want.
“But Europe is about more than countries; it is about people.”
Yes, that’s what really matters. And the corollary is that we do have a lot in common with people in Germany, France etc.
Big government is getting bigger, not just here but in the US as well – the ECB is providing funds to keep the entire european banking system afloat, while the US Treasury will be on the hook for the bizarre and disastrous mortgage funding system that they run over there.
Either way, the taxpayer foots the bill. Very hard to see how that can be reversed – unless we refuse to pay taxes!
Nobody has a biger government than we do. What the hell do all the Junior Ministers do?
bigger even
I was laughing reading about Sarkozy taking lumps out of Mandelson (diplomatically not turfing Barosso in it) over the cuts in the CAP and how it was causing all the Nos. Maybe there’s no Treaty plan B – but I see the Germans, French etc starting to leverage this NO to their advantage to do a few more tweaks on concessions before the referendum starts up again. Talk about making hay out of opportunity. And Sarkozy is visiting Dublin shortly. Real glad handing stuff this. We could be doing more for the Europeans than David ever imagined!!
Sarkozy and his French Imperial attitude will harden the Irish against the EU. Cowan and co will kiss anyones arse that deigns to bend it before his face.
Squeezing money out of cows was a stupid idea from day 1. We sold our fishing rights to allow farmers over produce heart disease. How dumb are we? The only beneficiaries from milk are the farmers. Nobody else benefits. Farmers call it white gold.
We voted no and the mantra now is to respect it. If the EU does not respect the democratic rights of voters then the EU has done more that throw its toys out of the pram at an Irish no. It has unravelled before our very eyes. And just like the Berlin wall falling it came apart very easily and was the work if ordinary people expressing their opinions.
Interesting article in today’s FT on the No Vote…
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6afc0772-405a-11dd-bd48-0000779fd2ac.html
What a ridiculous article. are u seriously an economist?? where did you graduate from??
Ayoub,
Climb back up that tree or figure out how to use the Internet. Maybe even use Wikipedia….http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_McWilliams
I would like to offer my cognizance to numerous Polish people, who I have met through my good partner over the last 4 years. Like all people of the world there the good and the not so good.
Each year Poles abroad repatriate billions of Euros. The National Bank of Poland the amount of private transfers to Poland amounted to €5.5 billion in 2006 – up more than 40 percent above the annual average in the five years preceding Poland’s entry into the European Union. And, of course, this figure for transfers does not include sums (certainly in the hundreds of millions of euros) coming back to Poland in people’s pockets without going through the banking system, and that a staggering % of their population do not have bank accounts, especially the older generations who don’t trust he banks with their money. Perhaps we could learn something from that and on the flip side of that when there were throwing out the cash to get into as much debt as possible. Or maybe Bertie found solidarity with these by not having one himself for a long time.
In the main I see that most are very careful with their money, it is not wasted. Large purchases are carefully considered, The Argos Catalogue, a very useful tool in deciding were a particular good can be got at the best price. Aldi and Lidel where possible seem to be the main shopping choice for daily items.
Of course Polish cigarettes at 35-40 euros a carton, don’t seem to be in short supply. Either does Polish Vodka, that not with Irish harp on it either. Primark/ Pennys are generally jammed at the weekend offering good clothing at small money. Those that have Polish Cars, don’t contribute road tax,Insurnace well who knows. I have recently heard that the answer to increased diesel cost is red diesel at 80 odd cents a literr.Much better that 1.45 a liter is it not!.(from a polish tradesman that still earns 600/700 euros a week on long hours in a finished building industry) Then of course we have Polish Satellite with Biggest flat screen you can get. TV license anyone?
Then of course we have all the social services available, single parent, child allowance, rent allowance.Mediacal cards.etc etc etc. Does anyone know what the Child allowance in Poland is? Not a lot I would have though .One situation of single mother with 2 young children living in a so called one the best estate in Douglas Cork, getting all the allowances, Works in Dunnes stores part time. Has 3 other living in the house paying rent. The school service seems to be used as a free child minding service, certainly little if any improvement in the children’s English in 2 years. Could anybody work out what’s the Paye/Prsi would be on part time job at near minimum wage? 30-40 euros a week?. Does nt seem to be much benefit to the Irish economy there.
So when it is said, I can see that as little as possible is spent here, as much is possible is saved and taken home at some point. And who could blame them. I presume we did the same in the Uk and US, Were we not used a cheap labor to build other peoples economies, and had most doors closed in our face to try and stop us the Paddies getting off the shovel?
So to say that the benefits of immigration, we good for us, yes they were, in the main large number of greatly over priced houses and apartments could built as cheaply as possible, making the few vastly wealth at the expensive of many for years to come!..
I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for the Poles and others who come to Ireland to work, save for the future and prosper and likely with a view towards returning home at one stage. It’s what I am doing myself overseas so I speak from experience.
If we Irish were not so short sighted we would see that these intelligent, smart and HIGHLY educated people (not just talking about Poles here btw) should be embraced into Ireland. It’s plan hardwork, a determination to succeed and guts that will be required from now on in Ireland. As an Irish emigrant myself it really disgusts me to see the half-baked and bog-minded, base ignorance of those who blame “the immigrants” for our woes. Every other country in the world LAUGHS at how the greed little pig Irish have squandered their boom and opportunity over the past few years I still can’t believe that 10 years after I left Ireland, we are STILL busilding the bloody M50 and my niece can’t visit my dad in hospital for fear of catching a bug or something. First world country??
Anyway, the horse has bolted in my opinion. If I were Polish I would be investing my money back home…that is where the new Europe will be in the years to come..not some outdated, bloated and inflexible spoilt-child of a place like Ireland. I’ll bet the smart and clever Poles will make a lot more hay then we did during our, past 15 minutes of fame.
What a shame.
I think the inflexibility of being tied by an overpriced mortgage to a breezy house in a field will sink many people.
Divorce lawyers, you’re on.
[...] And since hypocrisy is so corrosive to idealism, it’d be worth reminding our friends in France and Germany that too before they lecture us on how to be good Europeans. [...]
To the author:
What an interesting and reasonable(!) opinion of EU. We also need to remember that the present size of EU (27 countries, and even previous 12) is not a result of some charity of the richest countries to poor ones. IT IS BUSINESS!!! There is nothing more, and nothing besides, …just business, just a new huge markets (almost 40 millions Poles only). EU extends because France and especially Germany do provide for limited domestic demand. Inviting Ireland yeas ago, then Poland in 2005, they think of millions of a new cIients, nonmilitary solution that helps theirs economy to survive, to avoid collapse, bankruptcies in bank sector and industry. I could give you hundreds(!) egzamples of Polish big, well recognized and profitable(!) companies, banks, factories, which were closed as they were unwelcome competition for German, Swede… industry, or British, French, German, Italian… banks.
Someone noticed in his comment over here, that 50% of the cars in Ireland are German products. Lucky you! Situation in Poland: 50/50 – I mean 50% of German and 50% of French cars. Our own factories were closed, workers are unempoyed… By the way the same cars sold in Poland are of course more expensive than in Germany, Netherlands…
You are absolutely right Mr McWilliams, EU giving some money for Ireland or Poland actually pay only small fee for eternal right to explore our treasures and pockets. Now Poland which have plenty of minerals, great geographical loction, long coastline, old-big-wellknown universities… this country is permanently one of the poorest in Europe. Since 1998 we had two chances for loyal Polish governments, last time in 2005-2007. This government represented Polish interest and consisted of many brilliant professionals… It was day by day attacted in all German, French, Italian, Spanish, Russian meedia. They were forced to give up in the mid of cadency… It is so depressing.
…………………
I guess you already know, how many people in Poland are grateful for wisdom and courage of Irish voting NO. Thank you Ireland!
P.S.
- I am Polish, I live in Warsaw. I know how difficult is history of Ireland and how similar ar Polish and Irish experience from the past… I met some Irish in Poland and UK, …you are different – woman are beautiful, man are intelligent :) Since June 2008 many people in Poland have realized YOU are great!
- Hope my comment is understandable in spite of emotion and possible grammar mistakes.
Yesterday I set up a skype pubic chat “Is the Lisbon Treaty dead?” and I’d be glad if some of you guys could join the discussion by clicking the link http://url.ie/ho1 and following the join instructions which are pretty easy. As an Irish woman living in the UK and who has worked with europeans from all over, including the new countries to the east – I am deeply concerned that Ireland has become the guardian of national rights within europe and the monitor of the push ad shove between central and local. This is a european-wide question – please join the discussion.