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	<title>Comments on: Why &#8216;Yes&#8217; and &#8216;No&#8217; voters are in a class of their own</title>
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	<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own</link>
	<description>The website of economist, author and broadcaster, David McWilliams</description>
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		<title>By: Sharyn Belkin</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-52120</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharyn Belkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-52120</guid>
		<description>MARIA KING SCHIRO from Aughrushmore, Country Galway...it&#039;s Sharyn Belkin, your childhood friend from Beethoven Street in Los Angeles. Please email me if you see this!  sharynlocke@gmail.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MARIA KING SCHIRO from Aughrushmore, Country Galway&#8230;it&#8217;s Sharyn Belkin, your childhood friend from Beethoven Street in Los Angeles. Please email me if you see this!  <a href="mailto:sharynlocke@gmail.com">sharynlocke@gmail.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Maria King Schiro</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-38340</link>
		<dc:creator>Maria King Schiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-38340</guid>
		<description>As a dual Irish-American citizen, passionate rural dweller, and, last but not least, eight year Planning Applicant (for a cottage on family owned land): I took great pleasure in voting &quot;No&quot;, in June, 2008.

Why did I vote &quot;No&quot; on such a critical European Union Treaty?  A simple two word concept, among others, contained in the Treaty, namely, that of:
&quot;Qualified Majority&quot;

Something which, as a former legislative intern, not to mention, Irish and United States political junke, I consider only slightly less terrifying than the matter of losing Neutrality, for a Nation such as ours, Ireland, today!

Then, there is the very, very thorny matter of European Union procedures and policies which have, for decades, stymied rural dwellers, such as myself, from obtaining Single Rural Dwelling Planning Permission, on family owned land, in order to enjoy a quiet life in the Irish countryside.  Meanwhile, those with links to the European mainland, or, even just to Brussels, can enjoy second, or third, holiday homes in Ireland, and, be guaranteed Planning Permission just for promising some local employment, while the rest of us, Natives or, like myself, whose Maternal grandparents were part of a long line of teachers and local farming stock in Connemara, are obliged to meet every European Union Mandate on our land as well as our Planning Applications, regarding Envionmental and Ecological standards, before our Planning Application for a House, can even be examined, let alone rejected (as mine has been, for 6applications in 7 years) by our Local Authority, as being unneeded, or environmentally obtrusive!

So, lets ask ourselves this vital question: given that the European Union needs Ireland to Ratify the Treaty...isn&#039;t it about time that the European Commission, Parliament and last, but by no means least, the European President ask themselves the following question (to provide a poor paraphrase of the late United States President John F. Kennedy quote)
   &quot;Ask Not That Ireland Must Ratify The Treaty for the European Union.  Rather, Ask What the European Union and it&#039;s Administration Can Do For the Irish, in order for the Treaty to be Ratified&quot;

As a deeply disillusioned Voter and Citizen of Ireland, I, for one, will continue to vote NO to any Treaty that I consider to be a bad deal for Ireland, my Maternal Country.  I will continue to vote NO to any European Treaty that I consider improves the scope and reach of Euopean Legislation where that Legislation, impedes, impairs or compromises the Right to live in and reap the benefits of Rural Life, in Ireland, for Irish people, such as me.  Certainly, the onerous Planning Permission Process of Ireland today, thanks to the European Union Legislative Mandates that have been imposed on our Island Nation, since 1973, are so heavy and severe that only a fraction of indigenous, family linked, or needy Planning Applicants, such as myself, can from thousands who apply for Planning Permission, ever hope, in our lifetimes, to be granted the right to build, and live, on family land.

So, yes, I remain a Euro Sceptic, and a NO voter, should the Treaty come before me.  In my life time, I want to see Ireland&#039;s political, social, economic and environmental policy returned to its first priority, the Irish people, rather than the holiday home owners; the temporary European Employers and European Union civil servants and Political Appointees.  As a former American voter, the very concept of a &quot;United States of Europe&quot; makes my blood run cold, and, I suspect, the Founding Fathers of America, turn in their Idealist based graves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a dual Irish-American citizen, passionate rural dweller, and, last but not least, eight year Planning Applicant (for a cottage on family owned land): I took great pleasure in voting &#8220;No&#8221;, in June, 2008.</p>
<p>Why did I vote &#8220;No&#8221; on such a critical European Union Treaty?  A simple two word concept, among others, contained in the Treaty, namely, that of:<br />
&#8220;Qualified Majority&#8221;</p>
<p>Something which, as a former legislative intern, not to mention, Irish and United States political junke, I consider only slightly less terrifying than the matter of losing Neutrality, for a Nation such as ours, Ireland, today!</p>
<p>Then, there is the very, very thorny matter of European Union procedures and policies which have, for decades, stymied rural dwellers, such as myself, from obtaining Single Rural Dwelling Planning Permission, on family owned land, in order to enjoy a quiet life in the Irish countryside.  Meanwhile, those with links to the European mainland, or, even just to Brussels, can enjoy second, or third, holiday homes in Ireland, and, be guaranteed Planning Permission just for promising some local employment, while the rest of us, Natives or, like myself, whose Maternal grandparents were part of a long line of teachers and local farming stock in Connemara, are obliged to meet every European Union Mandate on our land as well as our Planning Applications, regarding Envionmental and Ecological standards, before our Planning Application for a House, can even be examined, let alone rejected (as mine has been, for 6applications in 7 years) by our Local Authority, as being unneeded, or environmentally obtrusive!</p>
<p>So, lets ask ourselves this vital question: given that the European Union needs Ireland to Ratify the Treaty&#8230;isn&#8217;t it about time that the European Commission, Parliament and last, but by no means least, the European President ask themselves the following question (to provide a poor paraphrase of the late United States President John F. Kennedy quote)<br />
   &#8220;Ask Not That Ireland Must Ratify The Treaty for the European Union.  Rather, Ask What the European Union and it&#8217;s Administration Can Do For the Irish, in order for the Treaty to be Ratified&#8221;</p>
<p>As a deeply disillusioned Voter and Citizen of Ireland, I, for one, will continue to vote NO to any Treaty that I consider to be a bad deal for Ireland, my Maternal Country.  I will continue to vote NO to any European Treaty that I consider improves the scope and reach of Euopean Legislation where that Legislation, impedes, impairs or compromises the Right to live in and reap the benefits of Rural Life, in Ireland, for Irish people, such as me.  Certainly, the onerous Planning Permission Process of Ireland today, thanks to the European Union Legislative Mandates that have been imposed on our Island Nation, since 1973, are so heavy and severe that only a fraction of indigenous, family linked, or needy Planning Applicants, such as myself, can from thousands who apply for Planning Permission, ever hope, in our lifetimes, to be granted the right to build, and live, on family land.</p>
<p>So, yes, I remain a Euro Sceptic, and a NO voter, should the Treaty come before me.  In my life time, I want to see Ireland&#8217;s political, social, economic and environmental policy returned to its first priority, the Irish people, rather than the holiday home owners; the temporary European Employers and European Union civil servants and Political Appointees.  As a former American voter, the very concept of a &#8220;United States of Europe&#8221; makes my blood run cold, and, I suspect, the Founding Fathers of America, turn in their Idealist based graves.</p>
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		<title>By: M Buckley</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-37183</link>
		<dc:creator>M Buckley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-37183</guid>
		<description>This is just the beginning of a very intense debate.
&quot;Europe&quot; is a &quot;Wide Field&quot;, as Fontane remarked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just the beginning of a very intense debate.<br />
&#8220;Europe&#8221; is a &#8220;Wide Field&#8221;, as Fontane remarked.</p>
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		<title>By: lunchtime o'booze</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-37156</link>
		<dc:creator>lunchtime o'booze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-37156</guid>
		<description>The airhead anti-globalisation crowd were a factor.  They don&#039;t realise that most of our progressive worker-friendly legislation has come from Brussels.
Even more witless is the element in the Green party who don&#039;t realize that this country would be an even filthier environmental slum were it not for the EU.
Young dingbats also don&#039;t realise the importance of the EU as a place where you can go to get a job when the going gets tough.  They have had it easy for so long  that they take the EU role in our prosperity for granted.
My problem with the EU is that we have not given away sovereignty in the right areas.   Why oh why can&#039;t we get the fab continentals to run our health system and our transport?
David. When are you going to come out for Libertas?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The airhead anti-globalisation crowd were a factor.  They don&#8217;t realise that most of our progressive worker-friendly legislation has come from Brussels.<br />
Even more witless is the element in the Green party who don&#8217;t realize that this country would be an even filthier environmental slum were it not for the EU.<br />
Young dingbats also don&#8217;t realise the importance of the EU as a place where you can go to get a job when the going gets tough.  They have had it easy for so long  that they take the EU role in our prosperity for granted.<br />
My problem with the EU is that we have not given away sovereignty in the right areas.   Why oh why can&#8217;t we get the fab continentals to run our health system and our transport?<br />
David. When are you going to come out for Libertas?</p>
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		<title>By: :: Novopress.info Ireland &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Reflections on the Lisbon Treaty result</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-37133</link>
		<dc:creator>:: Novopress.info Ireland &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Reflections on the Lisbon Treaty result</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-37133</guid>
		<description>[...] predicted recently by economist David McWilliams, the Lisbon Treaty result hinged very much on a question of class, and access to wealth. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] predicted recently by economist David McWilliams, the Lisbon Treaty result hinged very much on a question of class, and access to wealth. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: coldblow</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-37126</link>
		<dc:creator>coldblow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-37126</guid>
		<description>I remember Danny Cohen Bendit from when TV5 used to be on cable.  He seemed ok but a bit of a plonker all the same.  Now I know he was one of the leaders of the 1968 &quot;rebellion&quot; I can see why.

A lot of very perceptive comments here.  Hibernia Girl refers to class war.  While the Eurocrats are faceless and at a remove from us they aren&#039;t the enemy, any more than Roosevelt was the enemy of the ordinary American working man when he was elected.  They do a boring job and I wouldn&#039;t like to have to do it even if the pay and conditions are excellent.  I think the EU are potentially our protection against the big corporations and finance (I know that sound so vague) - sorry for the repetition.  The concentration of wealth needs to be addressed.

Maybe the EU&#039;s biggest crime as far as we are concerned is guilt by association with our own elite, who have always taken its side.  It was mainly for this reason that I always voted no in the past, until this occasion.  I was glad to read in John Waters&#039; piece in Friday&#039;s Irish Times (which I rarely buy) that he seems to think much the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember Danny Cohen Bendit from when TV5 used to be on cable.  He seemed ok but a bit of a plonker all the same.  Now I know he was one of the leaders of the 1968 &#8220;rebellion&#8221; I can see why.</p>
<p>A lot of very perceptive comments here.  Hibernia Girl refers to class war.  While the Eurocrats are faceless and at a remove from us they aren&#8217;t the enemy, any more than Roosevelt was the enemy of the ordinary American working man when he was elected.  They do a boring job and I wouldn&#8217;t like to have to do it even if the pay and conditions are excellent.  I think the EU are potentially our protection against the big corporations and finance (I know that sound so vague) &#8211; sorry for the repetition.  The concentration of wealth needs to be addressed.</p>
<p>Maybe the EU&#8217;s biggest crime as far as we are concerned is guilt by association with our own elite, who have always taken its side.  It was mainly for this reason that I always voted no in the past, until this occasion.  I was glad to read in John Waters&#8217; piece in Friday&#8217;s Irish Times (which I rarely buy) that he seems to think much the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Balanço do &#8220;não&#8221; irlandês &#171; perspectivas</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-37105</link>
		<dc:creator>Balanço do &#8220;não&#8221; irlandês &#171; perspectivas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-37105</guid>
		<description>[...] neoliberalismo, plutocracia, Referendo, referendum, totalitarismo, Tratado de Lisboa   As predicted recently by economist David McWilliams, the Lisbon Treaty result hinged very much on a question of class, and access to wealth. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] neoliberalismo, plutocracia, Referendo, referendum, totalitarismo, Tratado de Lisboa   As predicted recently by economist David McWilliams, the Lisbon Treaty result hinged very much on a question of class, and access to wealth. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Deco</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-37094</link>
		<dc:creator>Deco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-37094</guid>
		<description>Philip - what use is having a commisioner to Ireland ? 
They are required to act in the common interest. 

Besides Pee Flynn, and Charlie McCreevy were sent to Brussels to make FF more accomodating to the media. 

And Blair sent Peter Mandelson to Brussels, because Mandelson was a proven consistent disaster in the UK. In Brussels nobody said a word against Mandelson. 

I agree with the Danish MEP Bonde. It is disfunctional, ineffective, corrupt, and unwieldy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip &#8211; what use is having a commisioner to Ireland ?<br />
They are required to act in the common interest. </p>
<p>Besides Pee Flynn, and Charlie McCreevy were sent to Brussels to make FF more accomodating to the media. </p>
<p>And Blair sent Peter Mandelson to Brussels, because Mandelson was a proven consistent disaster in the UK. In Brussels nobody said a word against Mandelson. </p>
<p>I agree with the Danish MEP Bonde. It is disfunctional, ineffective, corrupt, and unwieldy.</p>
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		<title>By: Deco</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-37093</link>
		<dc:creator>Deco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-37093</guid>
		<description>It seems that the Common Citizen, applied their Common Sense, and re-established the primacy of the Common Law. It is all so terribly common. One can only wonder what residents of the Ross O&#039;Carroll Kelly (ROCK) belt in their &quot;Terenure tractors&quot; are chattering about now !! It seems as if the rabble have gone off and done something that was not permitted or instructed.  
 
The sophistication at the core ROCK belt is actually a maze of contradictions, all similar to the core of concept of the &#039;peacocks feathers&#039;. Yes it does look impressive, but it is functionally useless and hindrance in any competitive society. But then this is the essence of it. It is supposed to indicate that the Peacock can carry around such a hindrance and still be competitive. The aristocrats behave in a similar fashion. 
Irish society is still rife with neoptism. The Lisbon Treaty proposes to make Europe fit for competition by creating even more bureacracy. For those well connected this is good news. Great if you have degrees in Sociology/Politics/French Litreature from Trinners. But hardly relevant if you are from Tallaght, or Tuam, and you have just managed to get a degree in something useful like Engineering, thanks to hard work, brains, and savings. Asia is beating Europe, because Asia is concentrating on getting the simple things right, and increasing productivity. Europe seems to be following America in creating unproductive structures, processes. Europe is basically lost, because bureacracy is taking over.

Maybe the ROCK belt need to get a grip of reality ?? The rest of the population has gone ahead, and reasoned correctly that less bureacracy is what is required to fix Europe, and not more. It is all so completely obvious, that only the sophisicated hyper consumer classes could be so stupid to miss it !! Or maybe those with a vested interest in bureacracy, and authority have no choice but to support the proposal. A bit like the urge within the DNA of a peacock to increase one&#039;s feather count.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that the Common Citizen, applied their Common Sense, and re-established the primacy of the Common Law. It is all so terribly common. One can only wonder what residents of the Ross O&#8217;Carroll Kelly (ROCK) belt in their &#8220;Terenure tractors&#8221; are chattering about now !! It seems as if the rabble have gone off and done something that was not permitted or instructed.  </p>
<p>The sophistication at the core ROCK belt is actually a maze of contradictions, all similar to the core of concept of the &#8216;peacocks feathers&#8217;. Yes it does look impressive, but it is functionally useless and hindrance in any competitive society. But then this is the essence of it. It is supposed to indicate that the Peacock can carry around such a hindrance and still be competitive. The aristocrats behave in a similar fashion.<br />
Irish society is still rife with neoptism. The Lisbon Treaty proposes to make Europe fit for competition by creating even more bureacracy. For those well connected this is good news. Great if you have degrees in Sociology/Politics/French Litreature from Trinners. But hardly relevant if you are from Tallaght, or Tuam, and you have just managed to get a degree in something useful like Engineering, thanks to hard work, brains, and savings. Asia is beating Europe, because Asia is concentrating on getting the simple things right, and increasing productivity. Europe seems to be following America in creating unproductive structures, processes. Europe is basically lost, because bureacracy is taking over.</p>
<p>Maybe the ROCK belt need to get a grip of reality ?? The rest of the population has gone ahead, and reasoned correctly that less bureacracy is what is required to fix Europe, and not more. It is all so completely obvious, that only the sophisicated hyper consumer classes could be so stupid to miss it !! Or maybe those with a vested interest in bureacracy, and authority have no choice but to support the proposal. A bit like the urge within the DNA of a peacock to increase one&#8217;s feather count.</p>
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		<title>By: Hibernia Girl</title>
		<link>http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/11/why-yes-and-no-voters-are-in-a-class-of-their-own/comment-page-1#comment-37076</link>
		<dc:creator>Hibernia Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 02:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://793596216#comment-37076</guid>
		<description>&quot;The message here and on the continent is that the privileged are pro-European and the average bloke feels alienated from this elite.&quot;

Some comments I made on my blog:

The message here is NOT just that the average bloke feels alienated from the privileged, pro-European elite -- average blokes are starting to wake up to the fact that they are losing out economically in the EU (or will do in the long run) and are generally being screwed over by the EUrocrats and the privileged, pro-European elite. Make no mistake about it -- the outcome of the vote represents not just an isolated disagreement over the EU. What we&#039;ve been witness to is one episode in an ongoing class war.

Native populations right across Europe have been at the receiving end of a two-pronged attack from the EUrocrats/privileged elite over the past few years (decades?): 1) the strong encouragement of mass immigration between EU nations as well as from outside Europe; and, 2) the scrapping of minimum wage laws/agreements.

The importation of cheap labour (number 1 above) only serves to depress wages for all workers -- native populations and immigrants alike. Cheaper and cheaper labour, of course, benefits the privileged classes who can suddenly afford more and more luxuries. The chattering classes don&#039;t care if their fellow citizens are screwed -- and they certainly don&#039;t care if more distant populations suffer. Cheap labour is good -- at all costs.

Number 2 above speaks for itself (as did FF Cllr Jimmy Mulroy earlier this year) -- get rid of minimum wages and, obviously, labour will be cheaper.

I write mostly about immigration issues here on the aul&#039; blog and it&#039;s pretty apparent to me that the same people who are pro-Europe are also pro-immigration. Again, &#039;cause of the cheap labour (and, because they can afford to, they can be all sanctimonious about immigration -- a position that offers mega-amounts of social status points these days).

http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/06/irelands-chattering-classes-out-of.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The message here and on the continent is that the privileged are pro-European and the average bloke feels alienated from this elite.&#8221;</p>
<p>Some comments I made on my blog:</p>
<p>The message here is NOT just that the average bloke feels alienated from the privileged, pro-European elite &#8212; average blokes are starting to wake up to the fact that they are losing out economically in the EU (or will do in the long run) and are generally being screwed over by the EUrocrats and the privileged, pro-European elite. Make no mistake about it &#8212; the outcome of the vote represents not just an isolated disagreement over the EU. What we&#8217;ve been witness to is one episode in an ongoing class war.</p>
<p>Native populations right across Europe have been at the receiving end of a two-pronged attack from the EUrocrats/privileged elite over the past few years (decades?): 1) the strong encouragement of mass immigration between EU nations as well as from outside Europe; and, 2) the scrapping of minimum wage laws/agreements.</p>
<p>The importation of cheap labour (number 1 above) only serves to depress wages for all workers &#8212; native populations and immigrants alike. Cheaper and cheaper labour, of course, benefits the privileged classes who can suddenly afford more and more luxuries. The chattering classes don&#8217;t care if their fellow citizens are screwed &#8212; and they certainly don&#8217;t care if more distant populations suffer. Cheap labour is good &#8212; at all costs.</p>
<p>Number 2 above speaks for itself (as did FF Cllr Jimmy Mulroy earlier this year) &#8212; get rid of minimum wages and, obviously, labour will be cheaper.</p>
<p>I write mostly about immigration issues here on the aul&#8217; blog and it&#8217;s pretty apparent to me that the same people who are pro-Europe are also pro-immigration. Again, &#8217;cause of the cheap labour (and, because they can afford to, they can be all sanctimonious about immigration &#8212; a position that offers mega-amounts of social status points these days).</p>
<p><a href="http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/06/irelands-chattering-classes-out-of.html" rel="nofollow">http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/06/irelands-chattering-classes-out-of.html</a></p>
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