Ireland has to recognise that immigration is eventually going to clash with a slowing economy.
The population figures released this week reveal what many of us have known for some time – immigration is driving practically everything in our society.
This poses a serious challenge for us, which demands that we leave the relatively safe ground of economics and delve into the thorny, contentious but critical issue of culture. The question is what type of Ireland are we creating? Have we put much thought into it? And, if not, why not?
Our population has been rising now for some time. It has been apparent for at least five years to anyone who chose to open their eyes that the Pope’s children – those adults born in the 1970s population boom in Ireland – were settling down. They were filling up Ireland’s baby belt – mainly the counties around Dublin.
In the past two censuses, Kildare and Meath have been the fastest growing counties in the country. The new commuter estates – the ones now in negative equity – have become a nightly cacophony of wailing babies, ticking monitors and snarling, knackered parents.
But these places – like all suburbs – will become in time, the creative hub of a New Ireland, so they are well worth watching. This is the generation that is pitched into a new generation game with the new wild card in the Irish pack: immigrants.
The opening salvoes of this struggle are only now being heard but, if the economy keeps faltering, we could be entering a whole new era, as Irish workers and foreigners compete for fewer jobs. In fact, if economic history is anything to go by, this struggle is almost guaranteed.
If the new suburbs around Naas, Navan and Ballincollig give us a glimpse of the face of the new generation of indigenous Irish, the place to see the immigrants is Dublin Airport. This is their first port of call and, if you want to see the people behind the demographic figures, drive up theM1, grab a coffee at Starbucks in the terminal and open your eyes.
Around sunset is the best time. The airport changes from Irish to foreign and this side of modern Ireland reveals itself. In the arrivals hall, they are beginning to congregate. It looks like a scene from Gorky Park. Slavs of all sorts assemble to meet friends, and then disappear to the remotest parts of the country in a Vilnius registered Audi Quattro – the favoured car of Lithuanians. It was declared extinct here in 1996, only to reappear last year.
Some time in the evening, the arrivals section turns into a holding pen for east Europeans. You notice the crew cuts and fake Ducati biker jackets in various garish shades of orange and yellow, with misspelled motor oil ads emblazoned across the back.
They look like bouncers, big bullet heads on them, broad shoulders and Soviet special forces handshakes. Revealing that our culture is rubbing off on someone, they’ve a disturbing fondness for sovereign rings and Champion Sports.
The girls are mostly Slavic-pretty, long-limbed with high cheekbones, sallow skin and green eyes. They are the closest thing to supermodels that Mulhuddart has ever seen. Behold the nextTV3 weathergirl.
It’s amazing how the lads all look so downbeat and the girls could have stepped out of the pages of Italian Vogue. There is a disturbing amount of stonewashed denim and a few trademark Slovakian mullet and moustache combinations. Meet our future.
More phenomenal is the number of immigrants coming through the place. In 2005,143,000 Poles passed through here. Last year, that figure jumped to 580,000.
Passengers from the Baltics increased from 147,000 to 340,000 in 2006. Just consider the following statistic: in 2003, there were no direct air links between Poland and Ireland. Since then, just over one million passengers have travelled on one or more of the ten destinations served now between Dublin and various parts of Poland.
To get a handle on this, I camped out in the airport a few months ago and witnessed the following scene. The stewardess announces the incoming Brussels flight. The passengers queue up with the confidence of western Europeans which, counter-intuitively, means looking at your shoes, slightly guiltily.
One young woman is different. She constantly changes queues at the faintest sign of a hold-up. She is well dressed. Her papers are in order. Something is not quite right. Her palms are sweating. She looks like the Frenchwoman in the photo: everything matches.
The officer checks again. She’s wearing a long dress. He asks her to inch closer. ‘‘Please turn around, miss.’’ He asks her to stand against the life-size ruler. She’s the right height, but quite tall for a west African at five foot eight.
She looks around nervously and tries to regain her composure by flicking her hair and examining her impressively varnished nails. She plays with her earrings. She’s trying to flirt without making eye-contact.
Underneath her long skirt is a pair of customised nine-inch heels. The poor girl is practically crippled. She bursts into tears. She is Congolese,14 years old, in a strange country. She is a fraction of the size of the person she is supposed to be. She’s about five foot and she stands there sobbing, frightened and alone.
The woman, who, three minutes ago, was checking her nail varnish, is now a distraught child. The middle-aged gardai see their own daughters in front of them. Someone in the queue is drafted in to translate.
The airport is our Ellis Island. These people are our huddled masses. This is what the new world order means, and Ireland is on the front line.
Have we considered any of this? Have we even entertained that the mass movement of people is here to stay and Ireland is an attractive place to live? What does this economic force mean for our culture? This question is being asked in every country in Europe – constantly.
Denmark, for so long a country associated with tolerance and liberalism, has enacted some of the most restrictive immigration legislation in Europe, because the Danes have decided that their culture is not strong enough to withstand mass immigration – and they think their culture matters.
The Netherlands, for centuries the country that offered sanctuary for dissenters and outcasts from Spain’s Sephardic Jews to Protestant sects of every kind in the 17th and 18th century, has now also said ‘‘enough’’.
In 2002, Pim Fortuyn tapped into the popular mood when he claimed that Holland was full and that further immigration threatened the very tolerant society that welcomed immigrants in the first place. He was assassinated.
France has always insisted on allegiance to France over multiculturalism. In recent months, this has been challenged, and Nicolas Sarkozy has subsequently made it clear that he will not tolerate ‘‘further dilution’’ of French values.
Yet here, in the country that is receiving the highest net immigration of any country in Europe, the culture debate has not even started. Indeed, soft pieties, rather than hard politics, are dictating the agenda.
However, in 2008, as the housing market continues to tank, the hot debate will not be about economics – because it is clear which way that is going – but culture.
Culture matters, and this will become more evident as the irresistible force of immigration crashes against the immovable object of an inert economy. Something will have to give.
The Government should manage immigration according to our needs. Australia and New Zealand have policies which allow suitably qualified professionals into those countries and people below a certain age can avail of a working visa.
Some ethnic groups integrate and adjust better to Ireland than others – for example Polish people. It would make sense to give people from these ethnic groups priority over those who do not integrate so well in Ireland. As it is everybody seems to be flooding into Ireland and stepping over each other in the process. This doesn’t make sense. People who fit into Ireland well willl work better here than those who don’t. Unfortunately those who don’t fit in best are those who seem to intend staying here.
A “right of return” for only the diaspora should replace immigration to this country.
The poles and other Slavic Groups don’t really integrate well in Ireland, in Dundrum Town Centre Shopping a lot of the chefs in the food courts and retail shop workers don’t fully understand what you say and often chat with their other countrymen in their own tongue whilst supposed to be serving you (You don’t know what they are saying possibly behind your back).
The chefs give you the wrong food because they missed an instruction or misunderstood another ingredient in your sandwhich, this happens daily much to my and many other customers disdain and annoyance.
It’s the exact same with the Oriental peoples of China, Japan and Korea along with the South East Asians like the Indians etc.
These people work very hard but like other ethnic groups even from EU members states before 2004 can’t socially integrate along with us… it just doesn’t work that way and it won’t. We are all too different
The people who can integrate with us must be from our own culture and ethnic group, that what either brings success or failure….. and those people are scattered across the globe and hold names like Murphy, Browne, O’Neill etc.
Couldn’t have said that better
Observer and Donal, a right of return for the Irish Diaspora is a nice idea, but that’s about all it is – I’ve got cousins in Australia spanning three generations and none of them would ever consider coming here on a permanent basis – a working holiday, yes, but not for the long term. Similarly, with my wife’s cousins in the U.S., they’re worse in that they believe that the US Companies are carrying the whole show here. So dream on – there won’t be a rush to take up the jobs that the present immigrants are doing.
Jim said:
‘The opening of European borders is, in the first case, a capitalist project. The purpose of immigrants in this context is to work for the lowest pay possible while at the same time remaining docile in the workplace. That is: they are here to be exploited.’ valid and accurate. its happening as we speak.
marie said,
on December 27th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
“Every single non Irish/English person that I ever dealt with in this country has a medical card. I work in the health service and all the non Irish/English have medical cards. Not all the Irish have such a thing. Even working foreigners have them. It must cost the tax payer a fortune. I have lived abroad and have had to pay for healthcare. I have seen people from Poland, Nigeria, India all with medical cards even if they were working or not working. I see this in work all day and have to charge the Irish. Does the government check out how much property/money these non Irish/English have in the countries they come from? Are checks in place to see are they working/partners working? How is this going on? Is it any wonder they come here?’
Soon, Conor Lenihan plans to give them all the vote, so they can vote Fianna Fail.”
Well pointed out Marie. The pockets of the ordinary working people of ireland are a bottomless well for the largesse of Ahern and Lenehan and the rest of those well heeled, arrogant a*sholes.
Ed,
I understand your skepticism but don’t you think if we made more of an effort for something like this to be a reality, it would be possible?
When did we in Ireland decide that the corruption, exploitation and utter stupidity in the Dáil was OK?
I remember there was once a time if we didn’t agree with something or being treated badly treated/ignored, we’d stand up to it and fight for what we believed in.
What happened to those people?
Dreams are what make the future possible; when you kill the dream, you kill the future.
Ed,
You’re right about multinationals making a major contribution to Ireland’s economic success. Our government members spend so much time clapping each other on the back for doing nothing that they have taken their eye off the ball.
There is nothing to stop multinationals upping sticks and moving their EU headquarters from Ireland to an Eastern European base in the future – sooner rather than later. Certain Eastern European countries are forging ahead at a quantum pace and they have just as many links to the US as Ireland does.
Once the citizens of these countries get a good grasp of English it will make financial sense for multinationals to base their EU headquarters in a young, hungry, cheap country rather than a corruption ridden spud republic with a poxy infrastructure and spiralling costs.
I can’t believe how much racism there is here.
Well, I’m one of those evil immigrants. I don’t have a medical card here. I have free medical care back in Spain as well as Polish people have in Poland. It’s better, with less waiting time and a full coverage, so be calm, If something happens to me I’ll do my best to go to Spain instead of going to the HSE.
So I don’t believe any east European or southern European come here in order to use your medical services for free. The problem can be that none of them (of us) understand why we pay taxes to receive such a crappy medical service designed by the politicians you choose.
So you choose the politicians, they provide the worst infrastructures in Europe, the more expensive ones, the worst health service, the worst education system I know, and all of this paid with our taxes. And then you blame us because… we live here?.
Honestly, there is no such a thing as an Irish culture further than GAA and Irish language. Nothing else is so Irish&tm; as to called as Irish culture.
That’s the reason why I will try my Irish born child (not Irish national) to learn Irish and to enjoy GAA as I do. Of course I will try her to learn to cook and drink socially as a southeuropean, be constant as a German and hard worker as a Polish, open minded as Americans used to be and respectful as a Chinese. That’s because I don’t want her to be limited by any cultural background but to take the better I know from as many cultures as possible.
You have that chance too, but no body can deny that blaming the foreigner is easier.
If you want an advice, enforce the law. Put an end to those (Irish nationals or not) that defraud to the revenue (including the Taioseach), with those with medical cards when they don’t deserve it, fire your politicians and choose new ones to do things properly and put some control on immigration. This will make our life (all of us’) much better and easier and things could become better for all of us and by the way fix the problems this country has.
Donal,
I suspect that the government believe that if they cosy up to the Diaspora too much, they could be faced with demands for voting rights. As for our inability to stand up to the ruling party for what is right – it’s simply too dangerous. Look at the facts, 32 percent of the electorate are their core vote – these people get everything that’s going at the expense of the other 68 percent. That 32 percent will back them irrespective of what they do, so all they need are a few percentage points to romp home at each election. For all intents and purpose the loop is closed and continues to be further reinforced as time goes by – it’s now almost a state within a state. Try interfacing with any of the state agencies and invariably you’ll have to contact a local politician to get a response and for a favourable response, it has to be a member of the present ruling party. Way back in the seventies, I was entitled to a first time buyers grant of about 5 percent on my first house – never got it as I couldn’t take time off to go chasing politicians. All you can do is keep your head down and take what’s left over and be grateful for it.
The most successful cultures are brave and smart enough to look at other cultures, recognise what is good and make it their own.
Ireland could learn and improve by taking an honest and good faith look at *certain* elements of Muslim culture.
My Muslim colleagues in work don’t drink or gamble, are dedicated to their families and faith, work hard and
focus on learning and self-improvement.
Walking through Dublin city after each weekend’s binge session I’m reminded of how much we could learn
as I avoid the pools of vomit – and sometimes blood – left behind by many of our young who seem to stagger in desperation from one
miserable hangover to the next.
I would endorse everything that BigFredi has said. One of the few sensible posts on this discussion.
Seriously lads, do you honestly believe non-nationals come here purely because of the lure of a medical card??!!! Who would want to use the irish health service if they could possibly avoid it?? They are not stealing our jobs (they are doing jobs we dont want to do, at costs that we benefit from). Our public services would be equally inefficient and burdened whether non-nationals were here or not. The barbarians are not at the gate.
Irish ‘culture’ is a fairly meaningless concept anyway. Culture changes. The stereotypical perception of Irish ‘culture’ has both positive and negative aspects anyway.
As a country, we need to address the public service inefficiencies, political corruption, and social service defrauders (Irrespective of nationalities – lord knows there are plenty of irish people ripping the system off. We prectically invented it.).
Xenophobic views and policies only serve to distract from the real issues.
I see your arguement Ed,
but one thing for certain though is that the Diaspora are the best friends that they have and they will have to give into the pressure when it starts mounting up.
I suspect that the Irish lobby in North America will put alot of pressure on this government for this idea to happen, it’s already started from articles I saw last month in the various Irish Broadsheets and this is positive but more needs to be done. Teddy Kennedy would be one man who has enough influence to get the ball rolling on both sides of the atlantic.
There is hope out there although it is small, but it can grow stronger.
BigFredi,
the irish people don’t hate foreigners. They are however pissed off that such people like yourselves leave your own country to work here, it unintentionally causes problems because it means that one less Irish person over here is able to find a job because you would hold it instead. In reality it’s not unreasonable for the native population to be given the top priority for new jobs created over someone from elsewhere.
An example would be a HP plant opening up in Gdansk or Warsaw and hiring only polish graduates, local people and expatriate poles to fill the positions up.. . that’s sounds OK for you?
I don’t think your country would be as welcoming to new arrivals though either, if they were to arrive and take jobs in your homeland? Doctors, Professionals, Scientists etc leaving your home only contribute to your country remaining stagnant & halting its economic progress whilst putting the pressure on younger generations to be the breadwinners.
Kids as young as 14 in Latvia are developing stress conditions due to their siblings, parents, family and friends leaving the country for elsewhere because they live only on the money send back from abroad. They are too young and vulnerable to face the responsibility as adults in the world, at such a young age they shouldn’t have to worry ….. but migration has affected their lives because who can teach them their trade or degree or support them emotionally when those people are going away.
Immigration only causes more diasporas, these minorities and people like yours are treated with suspicion and hostility in the host nation by the native population because they see you as a threat to what and who they are. Judging from what have said, I think you will agree with me.
If don’t like it here, I suggest you go back with your friends and family because your economies will pick up in the long run as you have both “Intellect” and “Skill” power surpluses. You didn’t need to arrive anyway as you already joined the EU and were going to recieve Billions of € in subsidies, all that’s been here is sqaunder and bad planning.
As for irish culture, we have more than the GAA and the irish Language that defines our entity….. I don’t think you have the right to criticise irishness because I wouldn’t criticise your norms or traditions that defines your identity.
Steve,
we have a religion called Roman Catholicism which holds a lot of values attached to it.
Liberal hedonistic attitudes is responsible for the drunkiness, drug taking, pre-marital and extra-marital sex, illegitimate pregnancies etc.
Islam is context is a religion that has some good values attached to it…. but fact is that Islam and Christianity alongwith other religions have never co-existed peacefully in the same place.
The crusades are a lasting impression of Muslim and Christian Relations, christians are being driven out of the middle east because of this – Lebanon is the safest place for them but there is Hezbollah present there in full force.
Why cant certain people see the irony of the nonsense they spout?
I laugh when i hear Irish people say, ‘immigrants are bad for Ireland, stealing our jobs, hospital beds, women, etc….’ and in the next sentance proclaim support for the non-documented in the US.
The non-documented went and stayed in the US illegally. Illegally. They knew they were breaking the law.
At least most of the non-nationals in Ireland are here legally (i aknowlege there is an issue with asylum seekers, which is a seperate issue).
So its ok for Irish people to go steal the jobs, hospital beds and women of America (illegally), but not ok for Spanish, French, German, Czech, Polish, etc. nationals to come to Ireland to allegedly do the same??
They can’t see the irony Mojo, because there really isn’t any. People simply want what is best for themselves and, as they see it, their country – it doesn’t mean that it is best for everyone in all circumstances.
For a country, accepting illegals is not dumb – people come and work & generate wealth, have little or no access to education, health care etc, and have no rights, not even to stay in the country! If you want a workforce, what could be better? The only real loss, income tax, is giving way to indirect taxes anyway, and is partially made up for by more profitable companies (not having to pay employee taxes, and all the other costs of employing a legal migrant).There are obviously significant social effects, which the USA’s cultural and social makeup seems to deal with pretty well – it’s a brutal place, you really don’t want to be poor in the US!
So if the US wants to accept illegals, that’s up to them. People are simply commenting on what they believe is the right, and workable, course for Ireland.
There is only irony, I suppose, if you don’t accept that there are any significant social, cultural, and economic differences between countries.
Mojo,
the undocumented Irish in America should have gone legally and I don’t dispute that at all but what I think should happen is for them to return home.
The Irish probably went there because of the stupid methods here of handling inflation over here and not able to buy anywhere because of overpriced greedy builders and an influx of people we can’t accomodate, its a possibility of course but I think they should return here with a warning from the US Government about arriving illegally again – Demand them to have a Visas they next time they about to board the flight.
I met a guy who worked illegally there for a year and a half, he was caught out and spent 90 days in a state penitenary…… he’ll never be allowed back in again ever. Nice fella but very foolish
I want them to return home and I’m sure they do aswell when the time is right, Immigration isn’t good for Ireland and no longer for America with the number of Mexicans crossing over annually without documentation. It’s all exploitation and they are they equivalent of slaves because, they are under the control of someone else – their bosses
John had a very good post earlier “The acid test for Ireland will be when we see real competition for the closed shop occupations…”
Fully agree with this… There are at least 2 types of worker in Ireland, The “defined benefit” people, …… public service & closed shop professions…. Either through barriers to entry or very strong unions, these guys are immune to competition, their pay and conditions are determined either through collective bargaining/benchmarking or through anti-competitive monopolies…. Why if 1 in 7 or the workforce are non national, do we not see 1 in 7 working in our public service (apart from doctors/nurses), or 1 in 7 solicitors? It would be great to see competition extended to the “defined benefit” workforce, it would reduce our tax bill and improve public services.. Will it happen… Not a chance, Bertie wont lead, the PD’s are dead, and Labour are effectively controlled by the public sector unions.
The rest of us, the “defined contribution” crowd work in factories, call centers, on the buildings etc… Very different grades of pay & conditions but we all have one thing in common… we all face competition daily, either from immigrants looking for work or from the threat of outsourcing. Our pay and job security is determined by our contribution and is constantly being evaluated to see if it can be done cheaper elsewhere.
You cant blame people who are competing with others for being resentful of the competition, just one point. its better having them here and contributing to Ireland Inc.. rather than having the work outsourced.
Welcome to Ireland BigFredi, agree with everything you say, but there is a little more to Irish culture than the cupla focal and the ga… music for one.
To be honest Garry,
the multi-nationals will pack up and leave in the next few years anyway due to the low costs in All of Asia, Africa and the middle east.
We’re living on borrowed time until 2012 when they’ll have likely all gone
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=29976
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=27448
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=28293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=48
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=29842
I think these links show that the vast majority of people disagree with foreign workers or “seekers of asylum” being present in this country.
Has anyone ever thought how many War Criminals from Africa are living here from the Congo, Rwanda, Burundi and elsewhere? And claiming asylum whilst being protected by this government under their noses and elsewhere in europe.
I also heard that there are Polish Bars here with a policy of “No Irish welcome” around some parts of dublin?
Surely this proves that our arguement has a lot of truth attached to it
Criostor,
I would tend to agree that the Multinationals will start to move out in the coming years – when production and transport costs start to negate the tax advantages, then they’ll move on – with a weakening dollar that could be sooner than we think. Also, East European countries are a huge potential market for U.S. companies – our high costs are totally out of line for them to use here as a base, so they’ll have to produce locally. This will give them the added advantage of a low cost source for the rest of Europe, as well – two birds with the one stone. We’d better start looking for something to replace them. Financial Services in the IFSC are now said to employ about nine thousand – can we turn the place into a Cayman economy?
Donal,
Some of those undocumented Irish in the U.S. are there from the 80s – they had to get out. It’s obvious that you didn’t experience life in Ireland of the 80s – surreal is the only word to describe it. The country was bankrupt and VAT on luxury items went up to 35 percent. The revenue commissioners were desperate to find funds to keep the basic system running and this led to a flight of capital which only compounded the problem. These undocumented Irish are big time losers and now their savings are almost worthless should they be sent back home – the Irish government has a moral obligation to push for an amnesty.
It’s true, I forgot about your music and your musicians. Sorry about that.
@Donald:
“the irish people don’t hate foreigners. They are however pissed off that such people like yourselves leave your own country to work here, it unintentionally causes problems because it means that one less Irish person over here is able to find a job because you would hold it instead. In reality it’s not unreasonable for the native population to be given the top priority for new jobs created over someone from elsewhere.”
The first phrase is typical of xenophobic behaviour. I don’t hate foreigners “BUT”.
There is no Irish person unemployed because of me working here. Sorry, my company has been offering a position like mine for more than 6 months and nobody has been selected for it. Before working here (I’m an IT specialist) I was working in a call center. I don´t know how many languages you speak, but I don’t think I was replacing any Irish.
You say: “it’s not unreasonable for the native population to be given the top priority for new jobs created over someone from elsewhere.”
That’s stupid. The top priority for new jobs should be given to the best. If not, that company will have to compete with another doing so and that “nationals first company” will have to close and those nationals will face unemployment.
What I agree is that is not unreasonable for the native population of a first world country to receive the proper education to be the best when competing with foreigners, but that’s your government fault, not ours, and you choose your government.
I suppose that’s what happens to irish public services. No competence, so people who will never be taking decisions in a private company can take stupid decisions that cost all of us billions of euros. But nationals first, of course.
Apart from that, if you take control of this country and fire all of us, you could have a problem. Perhaps all those foreign companies would decide to leave with us, as well as all those foreign doctors and nurses. It would be like going back to the 80s.
Anyway, I have no plans for going back to Spain. I leave from there because I was not happy there and now I’m quite happy here. I want the best for this country because it’s were I live (as any other non irish national I know) and honestly I know enough good irish people as to stay here even if there are a few like you that prefer 80s’ Ireland when Irish were the foreigners all around the world.
You have plenty of problems to solve here, inmigration is one of them, no doubt about, asylum seekers looks to be another of those, but we (the foreign people) want to help you to do so. We also want a better Ireland.
Of course if Ireland’s economy sinks, don’t expect we (non irish and many irish) to stay. We, all of us irish and not irish, have provided the workforce, the money with our taxes, the will and the effort to make a better Ireland but the real thing that should join all of that to make a better country, the politicians, are chosen just by you, the irish, and by your election it looks like you only want bread for today and hunger for tomorrow.
BTW, in a country with under 4% of unemployment and that is requiring foreign workforce to fill the positions, the only people not working are probably those who don’t want to. If you want to find the enemies of the irish economy, you should take a look on them.
“East European countries are a huge potential market for U.S.”
This is why the Eastern Europeans are busying working, training and learning English, while we sit around watching Eastenders and Coronation Street. Laziness and complacency are our biggest enemies.
I have stated previously in other articles that I grew up in the UK Ed, but that doesn’t mean that I’m ignorant of what went on in the 80′s.
I’ve been reminded time and time again by my own family over the years what life was like and I can grasp what would’ve been….. I was born in Ireland and raised as an Irishman.
I’m also aware that there are Illegal Irish in the states since the 80′s but also the irishmen whom are “On the Run” from the troubles in the North probably since 1969 or ’70 because they were involved or suspected of something else relating to it.
If the illegal Irish are removed from the States, it’s our government’s moral duty that they are repatriated safely home and are supported financially if neccessary until they find their feet again home. They at least should argue with the US Government that all money these people have saved through legal means is protected should they wish to bring their savings back with them to Ireland, or even have it exchanged at a previous rate when it was favourable so they can at least have a comfortable start.
These 50.000 will need to be screened for previous criminal activities and other checks before an amnesty is granted, but the other 12 million Mexicans and other camps will be subjected to the same so it will go on for a long time. They’ll continue to get exploited, more people in the same status will cross the Border from Mexico or from Cuba and Hiati.
If you give these irish people preference then the Mestizio’s will argue that they are being treated less then equal.
BigFredi,
the spanish have alot to answer for ……. Your Country is just as prejudiced like every other nation in europe towards foreign nationals. We are prejudiced against foreigners on grounds of residence, whilst you see everyone else as inferior than yourselves.
Your nation sees anyone else other than Spanish as “Gringos”, African Migrants are seen as a greater burden than elsewhere in europe in your nation.
The Basque population want autonomy but you seem like your government lead by that Gobshite Zapatero, whom you voted for against peace.
Spain was once a proud bastion of Catholicism, until Juan Carlos allowed the nation to disintegrate and abandon all morality.
Viva Jose Maria Althzar
Double Standards don’t apply to anyone
Paul,
You’re on the ball – we can’t sit around waiting for the government to do something – they’re only interested in producing spin .
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_1010787.shtml
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10008838.shtml
@Criostor:
I don’t know where you get that information from, but most of it is totally wrong. Anyway I have said I wasn’t happy there but I am here. Some of those reason could be the cause.
Just for general information about your affirmations:
“the spanish have alot to answer for”
No doubt about that.
“Your Country is just as prejudiced like every other nation in europe towards foreign nationals.”
I don’t agree with that way of thinking, but yes, there are people against immigration all over the world. Even in poor countries.
“We are prejudiced against foreigners on grounds of residence”
I don’t understand that. I have several family members who are foreigners living in Spain with no problem. Only here I have discovered the “habitually resident” concept.
“Your nation sees anyone else other than Spanish as “Gringos””
Gringo is a mexican spanish word not used in spain.
“African Migrants are seen as a greater burden than elsewhere in europe in your nation.”
I don’t understand what do you mean with this. We have more african immigrants than any other european country because basically they jump into europe via our coasts. I don’t know of any problem with them (apart from they being illegal immigrants).
“The Basque population want autonomy but you seem like your government lead by that Gobshite Zapatero, whom you voted for against peace.”
The basque people have currently more autonomy than any non-sovereign territory in the world. Their own government, laws, revenue, language… If you are talking about the terrorist band ETA, they are just that. A marxist terrorist band. But talking about that is like me talking about the troubles. I can’t have a real idea of how it was. About ETA, there are more than 1000 people killed by them, and less of 100 of them killed, most of them while preparing their bombs of during the dictatorship of Franco.
“Spain was once a proud bastion of Catholicism, until Juan Carlos allowed the nation to disintegrate and abandon all morality.”
Yes, with Franco there was no option, you could only by catholic. Thankfully (for us at least). we are now a more plural and free country than what we used to be. If you don’t like it, sorry, but most people prefer to have a chance to choose their religion or none if that is their preference.
“Viva Jose Maria Althzar”
It’s Aznar, and I can’t understand how you can “viva” for him and at the same time talk about the basque country when he tried not to concede more autonomy to the basque country (I wonder what’s your ideology)
Sorry for this, but I don’t want to let those comments to stay posted here without an clarification.
Could we remove the crazy paedophile muslim from the site please.
Criostor,
I think you’re being a bit heavy handed. Calm down!
BigFredi, Spain can be never be a plural state like you want it to be. The last time Islam was present in your country El Cid and other Spanish Kingdom were fighting against the Moors and the was the Spanish Inquisition in the Middle Ages.
I think that is saying something, Spain still has however a very arrogant Colonial Attitude towards all its fromer Colonies in Latin America, the caribbean and North Africa. Blacks were always seen as nothing but slaves and they grew wealthy off transplanting them in the Americas with the Portuguese, this consequence has allowed their descendants to be poor and misfortunate for generations in places like Colombia & Venezuela.
The spanish never treated them fairly or humanely and still to this day do not.
The “Chimpanzee” noises when they played england from the fans is a big example.
I think that is what he was getting at, and also from what I remember its under 900 who have died in ETA Bombs. It’s a tragedy of course but not as high as a 1000
There are very good Spaniards who are dedicated Catholics and have wonderful manners, but the Spanish that many people come across over here as tourists and in spain are : Rude, Arrogant and cause obstruction if trying to catch public transport in the city or the suburbs.
I don’t fully understand why this conversation did turn from Ireland to Spain.
Anyway, let my point something. I’m not specially proud of spanish history or the current spanish country as it is. Nevertheless, I see plenty of prejudices about spanish history.
Saying that Spain will never be plural because it was not during the middle ages, should be not used just for Spain. We were fighting against the muslim invaders as the oriental roman empire was doing in the east or the french did on the current Catalonia to avoid them for going north. I don’t really understand why Irish people have something against defend your country. Anyway, yes, after finish with the last muslim kingdom the catholic kings (probably they had wonderful manners) expelled the non catholic population (jews and muslims) and created the inquisicion to pursue those falsely converted. A sad (and very catholic) decision that later Spain paid (but I don’t want to explain spanish history to you).
Spain is now a very plural country, one of the most decentralized between the developed countries, with 17 regions with plenty of autonomy, with great infrastructures and a great universal public health service. That’s basically what I’m proud of.
To latin america Spain carried lots of slaves. As any other empire. The only big difference is that we didn’t voluntarly exterminated the local population. Spain was an empire as any other in those days. I don’t think that’s something to feel proud of.
About slavery it’s the same history, an empire as any other. Nothing to be proud of.
The Chimpanzee noises when they played England where shameful for many of us, but nothing not happening in most of developed countries. Especially pushed by those priests of the differences and “mine is better”.
Regarding the manners… I’m still wondering why you relate that to catholicism. I’m sorry about your experience, sure there are people like that. My advice to you is don’t go to Spain. There are plenty of places around the globe were to go better than Spain (I’m not joking or being ironic). I especially recommend Dominican Republic. It’s great value for money, sunny beaches, with happy and full of joy people that speak several languages. Anyway, believe me, tourism in Ireland is a lot more rude and public transport is not even an option.
About ETA, yes, you’re right, under 900. Sorry for using the first expression that came to my mind.
Any man who defines his own ‘culture’ through a dislike, hatred or diapproval of other cultures has no culture of his own. I’m staggered at the spleen-venting vicious bile that’s being displayed here. I’m equally staggered and perplexed by David McWilliams non-contribution to this debate. Donal’s facist rantings are living proof that bad things happen when good men do, or in this case say, nothing.
here here JJ Tatten!
Hi JJ, David here. The reason I was not intervening in the debate is that I am travelling in Argentina and have been, over Christmas/New Year, taking a break from writing/websites everything. I’m back in Beunos Aires now and will respond when I’ve taken all the comments on board. Thanks again, David
“the politicians, are chosen just by you, the irish, and by your election it looks like you only want bread for today and hunger for tomorrow.”
A very good observation by “BigFredi” – this is why immigrants are so desirable – they bring a fresh unattached criticism to the debate.
Spain’s infrastructure is far ahead of ours and it would appear to be well ahead of the present wealth in their society – the exact opposite of what we’ve got here.
i am an immigrant and i would also qualify as being part of the diaspora, although many of us whose ancestors emigrated in the 1800s cannot trace our lineage.
i have not taken a job away from anyone in Ireland, and the idea of offering a job to someone because of their nationality is a great way for a company and a country to become uncompetitive and backwards.
instead of giving jobs to Irish people only why not work on making Irish people more competitive?
Immigrants here are mostly doing menial work that Irish people don’t want to do.
We love Eastern Euros at our office. they work hard, are conscientious, punctual, save all their money and don’t spend their weekends drunk off their heads so that when they get to work on Monday they are fresh and productive.
don’t blame the immigrants Donal.you keep on the way you are going and you’ll be that old man in the pub in the corner, ranting to anyone who will listen to diatribes.
to Mohammed Brown 28th December 2007 post.
I am sorry you did not understand the Bible because Jesus warned about God sending a powerful delusion to lead people astray. Islam is that powerful delusion!
In both Daniel (OT) and Revelation (NT) there are prophesies about Islam and Mohammed.
(1) over 1,000 years before Mohammed was born, Daniel chapter 12 identifies the Dome of the Rock as “the abomination that desolates”
(2) Daniel chapter 7 refers to Mohammed as the “little horn speaking arrogantly”
(3) Daniel chapter 12 refers to the Islamic Ottoman empire as a “beast” empire.
Please think how could these prophesies have existed over 1,000 years before it happened.
Only the Bible has the credibility of fulfilled prophesy. The Koran does not.
Do you understand the God paradox, Mohammed?
In the Bible God says he does not lie and does not change his mind.
If the Koran replaces the Bible then God has changed his mind, and thus God has lied because God said he would not change his mind.
The solution is that Allah is not the God of the Bible.
The Koran is from Allah but only the Bible is from God!
Mohammed Brown, please reconsider Islam because if you follow Islam, you are under the powerful delusion that Jesus warned of.
Did Jesus die on the cross?
a) there is a wealth of material supporting this, from documentary evidence to people sighting Jesus after the resurrection;
b) why would his supporters willingly submit to death if they knew it was a lie?
c) are you aware that over 300 people since 1224AD (Francis of Asissi) who have received the crucifixion wounds of Christ. Look at Padre Pio in Italy who had the wounds for 50 years from 1918 till 1968. He is on film and video and many people still living can testify to this.
Sadly it is the Muslims who are “full of doubts and uncertain” Sura 4:157.
re: my post on 8th January 2008 @ 12:30am
Correction
Item 3 on Bible prophesies should have been:-
(3) Daniel chapter 7:12 and Revelation 17:10 refers to the Islamic dynasties as a “beast” empire
The “season and a time” [Dan 7:12] and “for a little while” [Rev 17:10] is the 1,250 years that included the Islamic dynasties Ummayad, Abbasid and Ottoman from 661AD – 1922AD.
Addendum to the God paradox
From the last page of the Bible [Revelation 22:19]
“if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God will take away that person’s share in the tree of life”.
If you follow the Koran (which takes away the words of the Bible prophesy), then God will take away your share in the tree of life.
Mohammed Brown should consider this before following Islam!
Religion is the root of all evil in the world. It should be banned.
At Geoff, John etc.,
I’m quite sure that Mohammad Brown is a rhetorical device to show just how alien Islamic culture is to our own. He has pointed out a few (though not all) of the values that a worryingly significant number of Muslims (and Muslim immigrants) have compared to Western society. Personally I am more worried about the belief that those who change their religion should be murdered(currently 36% of 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims aged 18-24 in Britain according to the most recent Pew Institute Survey and rising),the homophobia, misogyny, the creation of “no-go” areas for non-Muslims and non-veiled women in Britain and France (as discussed by Bishop Nasser-Ali recently), the triumphalism and xenophobia involved in the religion. Also such things as the desire to impose Sharia (such as Dr. Bari of the Muslim Council of Britain’s suggestion that we should consider the introduction of stoning as a punishment for gays and adulterers.
For Geoff:
If you want to diss someone’s belief in Islam, referring to the Bible is not particularly effective, as they believe that the Bible was corrupted by Jews/Christians.
I suggest you tell them “You know you are in a cult if:
Your spiritual leader tells you that God says your spiritual leader is allowed to sleep with more women than you (Qur’an Surah:33.50)
and that God says you are supposed to give your spiritual leader your money (Qur’an Surah 8:41)
Oh yes, and the answering of any perceived criticism with lethal violence and threats of violence isn’t good either.
to Jim,
thanks for your stats for the UK. After travelling through Spain, France, Italy, UK and Ireland last year, I am stunned at the growth of Islam. New mosques in Granada etc.
But this debate is on culture and I fear for an Ireland under Sharia.
Imagine watching Irish dancing (Riverdance et al) where the women are in burkahs,
or listening to a Celtic Woman concert with Lisa, Chloe, Orla etc in burkahs.
I cant imagine an Irish pub without guinness.
Sharia would totally destroy the culture that has defined Irish.
Geoff Dickson,
Jesus probably did die on the cross but he wasn’t the only one to be crucified in those times. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all Abrahamic religions and possibly offshoots of one Middle Eastern belief system which is based on Mithraism.
There are similarities in the Bible, the Koran and the Torah. Abraham pops up in all three books. Islam recognises Jesus as a prophet.
It’s a pity that religion = division. Ireland under Sharia law might even be worse than Ireland under Archbishop McQuaid. We don’t want to return to the days of Magdalen laundries or child-abusing orphanages regardless of whether they are run by Catholics, Protestants, Jews or Muslims.
SpinstaSista
Jesus is supposed to have risen from the dead – that is the key, otherwise he would have been just another prophet.
Spinstasista:
Ireland *MIGHT* be worse? Please learn a little about Sharia – the majority of women in Pakistan in jail are there because THEY were raped; in Sudan a woman raped in front of 7 women was stoned to death because she needed 8 female witnesses to prosecute a rape, and without that her statement to the police was an admission of sexual intercourse – the punishment for which was stoning.
In Iran under Khomeini, female virgins were raped before they executed, as virgins went to heaven, and there was not much point in executing them if they went to heaven afterwards
In Sudan, Imams wish to reintroduce slavery – as it is allowed in Islam and was only banned by Westerners.
I could go on and on…
Geoff,
I don’t think you need to worry about Sharia for some time to come (even with birthrates at 4.5 for Muslim women vs. 1.5 average etc., it would take a couple of generations before a minority of 10% gets above 50%, even then that is assuming that the entire of that 50% wishes to see the imposition of Sharia – which they don’t: e.g. gay Muslims: tinyurl.com/384jej – generally about 50% only want to see the imposition of Sharia)
However, I personally can’t understand how people believe that “no-go” areas – suburbs, cities, regions – for non-Muslims won’t be formed in significant areas of Europe (as in the Banlieue of Paris, and as discussed by Bishop Nasser-Ali in Britain). Islamic culture is *moderately* tolerant of males raping females (I’m trying to be precise here: technically it is not, however if a female is not wearing hijab, then it is “her own fault” if she is raped etc. This bias is used by Imams to promote female veiling – but the corollary of this, is that males are let off the hook) – I know of a number of non-Muslim women in Britain and the Netherlands who have been harrassed by Muslim youths saying they are “uncovered meat”, and wondering “is there any reason I shouldn’t rape you now?” etc.
Personally, I believe the best people to speak to about Islamic culture are ex-Muslims, as they can give an un-biased view of the culture. The problem is that ex-Muslims views tend to be rather pessimistic about the future…
For those interested in preserving Irelands culture, please consider this comment made in Smyrna (Turkey) by an Islamic leader:-
“thanks to your democratic laws, we will invade you,
thanks to our religious laws, we will dominate you”
Be aware that only Islam requires its followers to use force to make Islam the only religion.
Islam is to be the only religion (Sura 9:33)
Moslems are to fight to make this happen (Suras 9:5, 9:29, 47:4, 5:33 etc etc.)
In the 7th to 9th centuries, Islam was spread by invading armies on horseback and by the sword. Conquered countries had their cultures uprooted and replaced:-
a) the Islamic calendar has 622AD as year 1
b) Friday becomes the day of worship
c) holy months are introduced (ie. Ramadan)
d) language of state becomes Arabic
e) law is administered by Islamic clerics following the Qu’ran and the Sunna
Islam is the only religion that demands this of its followers, even punishing them if they do not join in the fight.
Treating Islam the same as Christianity is, in my view, like having a policy of death!
Most western countries today allow Muslims freedom to enter, settle and flourish with no checks and balances.
In my humble opinion, legislation is needed NOW if we want to protect our culture and our way of life. To wait till there are enclaves of “no go” regions for non muslims in Ireland as is happening in the UK is too late!
to Magnus
I am sure that readers have the intelligence not to confuse the two words!
And I also hope that democracy in Ireland will always allow an individual to express an opinion, even if some dont agree. Hence my disapproval of Sharia!!!
As Jim stated earlier, talking to ex Muslims is the best way to understand Islam.
So here is material gleaned from discussions with ex Muslims (Pakistani and Palestinian).
Muslims are required to follow Mohammed’s life and behaviour.
“If you love Allah, then follow me (Mohammed)” Sura 3:31
“Ye have indeed in the apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day” Sura 33:21
Take a look at this beautiful pattern of conduct:-
1) in 627AD, Muhammed beheaded more than 600 Qurayzah Jews who refused to submit to Islam
2) following this he beheaded another 400 Jews using men from Khazraj. When he saw how much they were enjoying it, Mohammed let men from Aus join in and behead the last 12
3) when entering Mecca from Medina, he called for wholesale slaughter (beheadings) of the Meccan army
And do muslims follow this beautiful pattern of conduct? Of course they do!
Abu Bakr, the first caliph after Mohammed had a general called Khalid who earned the nickname of “the sword of Allah”. In 633AD, Khalid spent a day and a half beheading Persians and Christians from Ullays on the Euphrates river.
This continued on through history, and at the end of the first word war, the Ottomans executed over one million Armenian Christians.
And what does Mohammed have in store for the final day?
The Mahdi will arise to become the leader of a united Muslim empire who will fight to make Islam the only religion, with the wholesale slaughter of Jews and Christians.
The prophet said… [from the Hadith ; Sahih Muslim, book 041, number 6985]
“the last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them untill the Jews would hide behind a stone or a tree and
a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews”
Note that the Ghardaq or boxwood tree is widely planted in Israel, so this refers to a mass slaughter in Israel!
No wonder, Jim, that ex Muslims are pessimistic…
Magnus
The debate here is on Irish culture which is something I have a passion for, to preserve for future generations against what could be serious threats on a number of fronts ie. immigration, religion etc.
If your only issue is with me, please do the right thing and approach the moderator of this site or take your own legal opinion, but leave this space for those who want to join the debate on culture!
I could present legal argument why you dont have a case of identity fraud, but this is not the forum to do so. Thank you.
Ireland should consider the issues that the UK are facing now with only 3% of the population following Islam.
Obviously Gordon Brown doesnt “get it”.
Sadly, I dont think Bertie Ahern does either!
Consider this link.
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/01/i_feel_like_an.php
This is about Bradford in the UK, and a summary of how things have changed:
1) clothes shops sell Muslim dress, the butcher shop halal meat and the takeaway sells halil pizzas;
2) when locals move out because of the Muslims, Anglican churches are trashed;
3) a local electrician is confronted by youths and told this is our area, you are not welcome
4) nurses in hospitals have to turn beds towards Mecca 5 times a day to allow Muslims to pray (how would the Irish health system cope?)
5) exclusively Muslim schools are set up
6) Sharia law exists in almost all Islamic communities in the UK
All this with only 3% of the population in the UK being Muslim.
Imagine if Clontarf in Dublin became a Muslim enclave.
1) women walking around in burkas
2) street signs in Arabic
3) going to a function in Clontarf castle and being met by men with turbans, being served by women in burkas, with the menu in Arabic and drinking lemonade.
Hands up all those who would like their legal affairs to be settled by Muslim clerics flipping through the Koran and the Sunna looking for a legal precedent based on how Mohammed treated his camels in the 7th century?
Sadly though, this is all our fault.
The UK, USA, Ireland became strong when our Christian faith was strong and now are declining as our faith grows weak.
Jesus warned about God sending a powerful delusion to lead people astray who ignore the Ten Commandments and the prophets. [ 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12].
Mohammed is the perfect false prophet who breaks 6 of the 10 Commandments and also condones lying (Sura 16:106 and the doctrines of Kithman and Taqiyya).
A test for all of the Christian faith:
Identify the 6 Commandments that Mohammed had broken!
If we understand our Christian faith, we would never treat Islam as “just another religion”.
Only by legislation (and by returning to faith) do we have a chance to stop Islam spreading.
But does Bertie Ahern understand and have the strength to act?
indian religion and politics pre 1947…
Sorry, don’t agree 100% with you on this!…