The growing appetite of young Chinese workers for all things western, including dairy products, is having a profound effect on global agriculture.
Many years ago, in the mid 1980s, when I worked as a barman in a Chinese restaurant in Toronto (yes, you read right!), one of the Chinese waiters explained to me that he thought we – that is all westerners – smelt of dairy products. He claimed he could smell butter, cheese and milk from our skin.
Probing a bit deeper, I asked whether this was a pleasant experience for him, to which he recoiled and exclaimed that our odour repulsed him. This prompted a bout of arm-sniffing self-consciousness, as he went on to claim that Chinese people didn’t eat dairy, believing it to be an almost barbaric staple.
This was not one man’s idiosyncrasy. It was true. Others confirmed the theory to me that, indeed, Chinese people detested dairy as much as we love the stuff. So it was a great surprise to me to notice on a recent visit the epidemic of Starbucks in Shanghai.
The first thing to strike you about Shanghai is the foreignness of it all; the buildings, the teeming masses, the ambition and the sense that you are in a true 21st century megapolis. However, on the street the small details are as revealing and one of those small features is Starbucks.
Here, in the shining city of the country that supposedly hates dairy, a milky crème brulee or full-fat frappuccino epidemic has taken hold. There is a Starbucks on almost every street corner and it is full of Chinese students and workers sipping iced vanilla lattes.
Have the Chinese changed their eating habits? It seems that they have. The offices of Glanbia in Shanghai are a testament to this. Glanbia is in, among other things, the milk-formula business, which is booming in China. Chinese maternity wards are making a wholesale shift to milk-formula feeding and this is having a profound effect on the worldwide price of dairy. In a year when stock market and house prices have been falling, the price of agricultural produce has gone through the roof. This has a lot to do with the changing tastes and demands of China.
Another thing you notice in Shanghai is the number of traditional American steakhouses. Beef consumption in China is also skyrocketing. By switching from fowl to beef, the Chinese have had a huge impact on the price of global agriculture and may now be kicking off a 20-year trend, during which we will all experience consistent food price inflation. Before we think about where this might be taking us, let’s proffer a few ideas as to why it is happening.
The east is going west as quickly as the west is going east. The middle classes in the west have become obsessed with the east and the middle classes in the east have become obsessed with the west.
Look around the suburbs of Ireland and see how the middle class infatuation with all things eastern has become almost obsessional. Think about yoga, lentils, sushi, lemon grass, chilli, coriander, pak choi, chopsticks, rice wine vinegar, sake, soy sauce, sesame seed oil, nam pla fish sauce, garam masala, cumin, Buddhism, meditation and ashrams.
What we are seeing is definitional consumption. So, when choosing what to eat, many people are not so much satisfying the biological taste bud urge of ‘‘I like that’’, but rather the more socially subtle signal ‘‘I am like that’’.
So the well-heeled, worldly westerner is not only deciding to love the taste of sushi, lemon grass and coriander, they are also sending out a clear signal as to how they would like to be regarded.
They want to be lemoney-grassey, sushi-eating, coriandery type of people, as opposed to meat and two veg types. This sets them apart on the social hierarchy. In the new moral code of the western middle classes, less is more.
Only the poor are fat and only the rich have green-budgets based as they are on self-restraint, making do and going without. Sacrifice is the new excess and what better image of sacrifice than the self-styled Donnybrook version of Ghandi, abstaining, dieting and refraining. Oh such self-control in an era of bling!
In China, the new middle classes have no truck with such self effacing carry-on. They love spending, brands and flashing their cash. They have rejected Confucianism for consumerism. Shanghai is brand central, where the fashionable are kitted out head to toe in Versace, drink Krystal and generally out-spend the west.
Many of them want to eat, drink and look like us, while many of us, want to eat, drink and act like them. Their middle classes are actively rejecting their traditions in favour of ours and our middle classes are rejecting our traditions in favour of theirs.
The impact this will have on economics could be profound. Already we see China’s impact on oil prices, as it drives its industries to make the goods necessary to get the cash to spend in Starbucks. We are also seeing the great untold story of agricultural inflation, where Chinese demand is among the key factors driving up the price of a pint of milk in Ballincollig.
Both of these trends are completely at odds with the past 20 years, when cheap oil in the late 1980s to the early part of the century and cheap food from the 1970s to now have been the dominant background noise to our economic expansion.
This is now changing and a era of food inflation is on the way. This will have an impact on the price of agricultural land around the world, as the yield from land rises on the back of food price inflation.
Additionally, as the west reacts (rightly) to the green agenda we could see what the UN refers to as a ‘‘massive switch to agro-fuels’’.
Last year more than one-third of the total US maize crop went to ethanol for fuel – a 48 per cent increase over 2005.This trend is on the increase all around the globe and will take more land out of agricultural production, putting further upward price pressure on food prices and by extension agricultural land prices.
We may well be on the cusp of the great new era for global farming. And the trigger to this revolution can be traced to skinny-tall lattes on the Bund in Shanghai and wheatgrass juice in the ashrams of Rathmines.
Philip,
the nation-state is how every country and people in the world is and forever should be defined.
That’s what makes the world the paradise it should be and earth enriched with its own diversity.
One world – Many Cultures
One Nation – One Culture
It should not and never be:
One Nation – Many Cultures
that’s where problems emerge!
Donal.
Explain why multiculturalism works in Canada then?
I still cannot I called Dev a Brit. Serves the auld prick right though. In this day and age he wouldn’t get a visa to enter Ireland and we would all have been better off.
Th biggest disservice the Brits did to Ireland was sparing Dev the bullet. The coward lived to rule the day and the brave revolutionaries got shot for their troubles.
China is just the current ‘future global powerhouse’. In the 80s, everyone was going to be working for a Japanese multinational, it even got into the movies (Back to the Future > 1, Die Hard, Rising Sun, and so on). We have these sorts of fads – it seems to stem from our love of the ‘Orient’. Very few Tai Chi masters live beyond the age of 80 – my grandmother was 85 when she died in 1970, not really an excecptional age, even then.
China’s economy depends foresquare on absurd trade imbalances with the West. I really don’t want to consider what will happen in China when their GDP takes a 30+% hit when these imbalances sort themselves out.
I’m not saying that they won’t get there, just that it won’t be anytime soon.
As for why the Englsih don’t know much about Ireland, you really mustn’t take it so personally: We don’t know about Scotland either, or Wales, or Belgium, or Scandanavia, or almost everywhere, except Germany (couple of wars), France (endless wars), USA (several wars, various sides), and, strangely, the Pitcairn Islands (although not by name).
Of course, the English are now almost extinct, and I have no idea what, if anything, schoolchildren in our little geographical area learn about, in history lessons. The crimes of empire, I should imagine. That should keep them busy.
Donal,
Not just successful multiculturism in Canada, but Brazil or Malaysia are doing fairly well with mixed races and there are many other cities and countries like them. Sure there are tensions and problems, but these lead to creativity and interesting diversity too. What about the great food in these places?
I think you’re too keen to find a pattern when what we should be looking for is a way of benefitting from the input of immigrants, especially from their cultures. What about a Polish pub with their food and music in one of our towns? This sort of thing could lead to new fusion styles and success for everyone.
Philip,
“the notion of Ireland as a nation state is a nonsense. No wonder we are easily ruled but cannot rule.”
You’ve touched on a depressing reality there – I’m having doubts about the notion of a genuine Irish Culture. What exactly is it? The music is perhaps unique, but other than that we don’t have much. Our literature, the little that there is of it, is very much about our days as a suppressed people and it doesn’t offer any inspiration. What really annoys me is that the people who go on about the glorious nation, are in the main, public servants who are living off the state and don’t have the face the wider world for their incomes.
When you’re out there trying to do business in another country, culture is very important. Contemporary culture, like river dance and U2, does offer a good reference, but is it really Irish. The dodgy behaviour of our politicians is a major stumbling block for a small country like ours – it’s difficult to convince outsiders to trust either you or you product.
Thaigah,
Canada is only different to America in the sense that they watch more hockey and use the metric system.
French is spoken in Louisiana and Northern California – Same in Quebec?
They have the same native people – In Reservations – Same in America?
Ottawa is becoming more concerned that they are losing their old image – White & Anglo-Saxon (More Indians, Portuguese and Italians are moving there than Brits and Irish that made up the country in the beginning).
Canada is more a province than a country and the world knows the only reason they exist is because they stayed loyal to Britain when the 13 Colonies of America decided to kick King George out.
Brazil and Malaysia is certainly not doing well from Multi-Culturalism.
Black people in Brazil are either discriminated against or if they live in the Favelas of Rio, getting shot by the police in a shootout with the drug gangs happens more often the sun is to set. This happens all over Latin America and they are much poorer than Blacks in the US.
Malaysia has its own problems with “Succesful Multi-Culturalism” look at this link to show how much Ethnic discrimination there is this “celebrating differences paradise” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia.
I think you’ll find that isn’t fiction! With respect
B,
De Valera did contribute to the freedom of this country and as did every other man like him with Asperger’s Syndrome.
“The biggest disservice the Brits did to Ireland was sparing Dev the bullet”
Are you implying that all people like Dev whom with their high intelligence should be shot then? Well that would leave us with plenty more idiots in this country.
Why not then include:
Robert Emmett – He had the blueprint of the hand grenade in his mind 100 years before its introduction into modern warfare.
Padraig Pearse – And just reititerate from that ignorant git Peter Tatchall, he wasn’t homosexual either that was Roger Casement.
So these patritots who suffered from their own psychological torment in the condition and prone to bouts of anxiety or nervous breakdowns – like De valera had during the rising in 1916 because he was up for days and was at his own breaking point.
I find your comment ignorant and insensitive, you clearly have no sense of empathy or understanding as to how minds like these men think.
Non of these men would have supported the Anglo-Irish Treaty which M. Collins was duped into signing believing that the brits would keep their word which the liars didn’t.
Britain’s only aim for the treaty was that they kept the wealth in the north from manufacturing from falling into our hands and to make the Protestant Minority in Ireland a majority in their dominant location – Ulster
Divide and conquer like they practised as always – And as the treaty was signed, the cabinet of D.L. George remarked on how “We almost gave them nothing”.
Dev knew that and so did others, his only fault was that we didn’t send the whole IRA entirely upto ULSTER and destablise the Brit’s there. The British and the treaty tore this country apart …. Not Dev or Collins.
B,
Having seen the recent spat between Tim Pat and Diarmaid Ferriter on RTE, I decided to read Tim Pat’s Dev about three weeks ago and I’ve now got even less regard for him – he was nothing other than a devious self centred individual who put his own interests first and left a permanent scar on this state. Mary Hannifin has some neck giving a copy of Ferriter’s whitewash to ever school at a cost €30,000.
Ed,
Tim Pat Coogan wrote that book from a biased angle favouring Collins. A proper historian would write a biography that identified the flaws of both individuals and not split one camp against the other.
And by the way I’m a distant relative of Collins.
Donal,
I implied nothing. What I said is is that the British should have shot Dev while they were at it. They shot the heroes why not this coward too. I mentioned nobody else. The heroes were shot because they wer brave and constituted a threat. DeValera hid and was “just a teacher” and not considered a threat. Anything else read into my comments is conjecture. I am specific. DeValera was the greatest blight we have ever seen. Worse than Cromwell.
We paid for this by DeValera allowing John Charles McQuaid and his mates in the cult impose Catholic Fascism on Ireland. The Church is self serving and still COMPLETLY UNAPOLOGETIC for its actions. It was also gifted land from the state that it never paid for and will never return.
We are still paying for the Mother and Child fiasco now by having a dysfunctional idealogical health service that will happily kill any who enters.
McQuaid polarised the Free State against the Protestantism in the North. He believed in the One True Church and was going to impose this on anyone who got in his way. He was unelected and the Vatican got spooked by his actions and refused to make him a cardinal. This really pissed him off and is the one thing that the Vatican ever did that favoured the Irish.
Some commenters said I am against all that is Irish and to hand in my citizenship. This is bollocks. In a free democracy it is the duty of the citizen to expose the fraudsters and defend his fellow citizen. We need to become a democratic country instead of braying at the Chinese and others while at home we deny our own citizens their health, their democracy and too often their lives.
criostor
I don’t agree with your statement that Tim Pat was biased towards collins – he was, after all, editor of Dev’s paper, the Irish Press, for twenty years. I believe that, when he was researching collins, he came across some uncomfortable truths and did the honourable thing by exposing them. You may be a distant relative of collins, but that doesn’t give any extra weight to your views – I’m a distant relative of Thomas Clooney of 1798, but that doesn’t entitle me to claim ownership of the country as dev’s followers do – he was basically an imposter and his supporters are equally dodgy.
I agree with Ed. No ideology has a claim on Irishness. There was an Ireland before Fianna Fail and before Unionism and Republicanism and before Catholicism. Being Irish does not mean you are a Republican or Catholic. The identity was hijacked by zealots who are still fighting an imaginary war with enemies long gone. I think their main enemy is now the people who live on this island who they cynically exploit for their own gain.
Being Irish is not just living in Ireland and going to mass. Unfortunately the zealots who excluded and did not educate the people that had to leave also kicked them in the teeth by not letting them and their following generations return. Witness the generation of Irish exiled to Britain to die in uneducated poverty and alcohol abuse.
There were no opportunities here not because of British repression but because DeValera and his cronies followed the most stupid, narrow minded and backward economic policies the world has seen. Even North Korea is better run than them. They dug up the railways and carefully took apart any institutions that were seen to be British. No lessons were learned from outside. Ireland was this pious, Catholic garden of Eden where Utopia was supposed to flourish. This horseshit and the reinforcement of this horseshit by successive governments made the country the way it is. Dysfunctional with delusions of grandeur.
A teacher in my former school said that emigration leaves behind the old and the old fashioned. Now that people have either not left or return we are left in the perverse situation of the old fashioned ruling the young and dynamic. I just wish that people would actually wake up from their comfortable apathy and throw these imposters back to the 1920s where they clearly ideologically belong. The old Ireland they come from no longer exists and we deserve better.
Them also taking credit for the boom makes me sick. They did practically nothing apart from catch a lucky break.
If I am still seen as unpatriotic for wanting a better country and berating the halfwits with the map then maybe I really should leave.
Donal
I don’t think anyone would disagree with you that the mixing of races and cultures down the ages has brought with it countless problems, just as it has produced, in our day, great football teams, artists, writers, singers, etc, not forgetting Tiger.
My one concern is that Ireland does not repeat all of the mistakes made in other developed nations (including Russia) regarding the treatment of foreigners. And I hope there is still time to learn.
For example, I am living in S. Korea which is going through a fairly similar situation in that until recently its population was pretty homogeneous (I don’t think the N. Ireland population is relevant here as their immigration problems relate more to the UK).
Here I have noticed one or two positive ways in which the Koreans treat their foreign long-term visitors. Firstly, the media often show documentaries about mixed-race marriages, portraying these in a very factual and cheerful manner. One may argue that they should also show the failed relationships, of which there are many, but what good would this do? Surely RTE could do the same.
Secondly, Koreans are really interested in foreign singers and films. “Once” is very popular here at the moment, and I’ve dusted off my old guitar! My point here is that Ireland should show more foreign films. There are many great Polish and Chinese films, for example. They may, as here, lead to a more positive attitude towards the ordinary working people from these countries.
Just one more example: Irish pubs have been mentioned often on this site as one way in which we have adapted culturally abroad (or perhaps as a way in which others have adapted to us). Surely we owe it to well-intentioned foreign visitors to accept them as they have accepted us all over the world? And one good way is to encourage them to open their own pubs and restaurants so we can share their culinary delights. OK, the Italians and Chinese need no encouragement; I’m thinking more of people like the Czechs (best beer in the world) or the Vietnamese.
Having said all this, I do feel the Government should set tight limits on the numbers of foreigners being admitted, as, if there are too many, the problems could become as bad as they sometimes are elsewhere.
I will be in Korea next week. We have ethnic restaurants here but Irish people won’t go in. You can get Kimbap and Bibimbap in Dublin in a few places. Its not the foreigners that have to change we have to change from our conformist ways. We may have dissenters but we are fairly homogeneous and vanilla in our habits. Irish people as a rule don’t do spicy food. I agree that we are sadly lacking in Vietnamese food here.
I don’t think that tight limits on foreigners is the way to go now. Apart from it being far too late this is the policy of countries like Japan where it culturally acceptable to blame foreigners for the rise of crime.
Ireland has has immigration for thousands of years. When it was difficult by default the dynamic and fit arrived. Now anyone with a plane ticket arrives. The EU has distorted it and we don’t have a coherant policy for any skills and make policy with whatever people shout loudest about on Liveline.
One thing that confuses me though is trying to work out what exact part of the EU Nigeria is in?
Thaigh,
you seem like a very pleasent individual and there should be more people like yourself but the sad case is that Ireland will fail spectactularly in accomodating Migrants.
I spent 20 years of my life in the UK: I was spat upon, kicked & punched and called “A thick dirty Irish Bastard!” throughout all of school and outside of it in the street.
When the troubles were in full flow a common question was “How can you tell what the time is Ireland? By the number of bombs that go off in succession!”
I hated living in Britain and was glad the day I left, Ironically it wasn’t only idingenious brits that subjected me to this disgusting treatment but Black and Asians (Sikhs, Hindus and Some Muslims) aswell.
That is what does happen everyday in Britain but they are keeping it from being made public, I hate the place and couldn’t care less in it destroys itself as a country. Sadly my anger and resentment to that place won’t fade away until I die.
I was never part of any group and was treated like an outsider up until University – Every child has the right to grow up in their own native culture and be free from all forms of bullying within it.
I didn’t grow up in Ireland but always knew that I would never want my kids to go through the pain and torment that I did.
I don’t ever want my homeland to turn into the Hell that I lived in for so long – I know what prejudice against immigrants is like from experience.
Donal,
With respect the IRA was in full swing when you were in the UK. I don’t know your background but it sounds like you were there not out of choice but due to the lack of any hope of employment for you or your parents in Ireland.
The solution is not to throw the immigrants out here. If we go back far enough we will find that most “native Irish” have immigrant blood in them. From Vikings, to English, to Spanish, to French blood. It is not immigration that is the problem but the ham fisted and cack handed approach that Official Ireland takes to any problems they face. They see no opportunity and blindly apply solutions that don’t work.
I was born, grew up and live in Ireland. I feel let down by the squandering of a fantastic chance to make a new country. We were overthrown twice. Once by the British and again by those who claim to have liberated us from them. Democracy will take time to grow here and cannot be imposed like they US is trying to in Iraq. The Church by its nature and its lock stepped partner Fianna Fail are fascist in nature and dictate from the top with no risk of ever being deposed. Ireland does not do resignations and if you are caught you are sin binned for a couple of years and then brought back in. Welcome Beverly.
We have a pretend democracy.
fordprefect,
my suggestion for migrants is not to kick them out but give them the opportunity to go back and improve their country. Financial incentives would be an idea to help them invest in their own resources.
Even after the Good friday agreement I had to deal with the prejudiced crap that is regularly practised in the UK, they have always seen the irish as “Dumb Micks – 3 threes are 33″ people. People like the ones I was exposed deserved a crack in the teeth, but I would have been in more trouble than the gobdaw who started it – A slap on the wrist is the punishment they got.
They believed that Britain had no fault in Ireland’s misfortunate history and that we were just nothing but a savage country (All of Ireland) and that the IRA were entirely to blame for the problems in the North. What we know really was that the Nationalists in the the six counties finally had enough of being shot, beaten up or socially raped by the RUC and Stormont Unionists and fought back. The republicans of course made no favours to themselves or the cause by killing innocent civilians.
America would have been friendlier, my family and nearly every other Irish Family in the UK regretted educating their kids there because their education system is utter crap. The schoo kids in the 3rd world are more educated than the average British one.
Immigration as an asset has now lost its appeal and use for benefitting any nation – Migrants will work for less and allow themselves to be exploited (which is wrong and no different than slavery) and the native population will be pushed aside for the cheaper labour and leave them unemployed (Which fuels resentment and anger – Another wrong)
These 2 wrongs don’t make a right or correct any labour shortage in the country.
Canada, Singapore, US, UK, Australia, New Zealand. All have benefited from immigration. A lot of our best people went there.
If we are going to kick migrants out I am off out of her. I can only verify that I am Irish going back 500 years so I must be a blow in. We have one ancestor from France. Shame on us.
I better get my bag and coat and head for the airport. I must be an immigrant so. I will call the GNIB and ask them to deport me.
FordPrefect,
Grow up. I’m Irish Maternally and Norman Paternally (at least 680 years!) but my father’s ancestors intermarried with the tribes in Connacht. They left the Norman culture behind to become more like the native population.
If your ancestors are here from 150-175 years ago, you practise Irish Values and have knowledge of the history & practise the culture\customs of the nation – You are a native.
Singapore is overly crowded – It’s more like an offshoot of china than a separate culture
The US, Canada, Australia & NZ were all crown colonies that either shipped convicts out to these places or the new settlers profitted from the resources at the expense of the Native Americans,Aborigines & Maori’s.
They haven’t experienced any benefit and are ignored by the governments: They are very disadvantaged and are the lowest achievers in society.
Unless you own a casino close to a Sioux or Apache Reservation, you’re living on benefits!
What are Irish values? Kowtowing to invading forces? We have taken it up the rear from the Vikings, Cromwell, The Black and Tans, the Catholic Church, Fianna Fail, The Unions and more. The Irish public are seen as an easy ride and will take anything.
We get locked, we take drugs and we don’t stand up for ourselves against bullies and people who are on the take. We sit back and let them do whatever nastiness they want to. And then we go to their churches and vote them in again. Sounds a bit stupid to me.
What was the point of 1916 when the losers that took over after the revolutionaries were executed couldn’t run a bath? We deported IRISH people to live in the UK in uneducated poverty. We still refuse to help them out. We allowed the church rape and torture IRISH people. As far as I can see we allow small groups to do what the hell they like and then repay them by supporting them.
If immigration can help to stem this by exposing more people to outside cultures I am all for it. Immigration has done more for this country than it has done harm. If it has done nothing it has made the girls working in Spar hotter and I am all for that.
We need to wake up, stand up for ourselves and not stand for the shite the the Government seems to think that we will take. It is not acceptable to be faced with the possiblility of being kiled by the dead hand of the faceless HSE and it is not acceptable for ministers to spend OUR money on peddling propoganda that a 5 year old doesn’t believe. We need to stop being so naive and helpless and throw more of these greedy bastards to the lions. And have no mercy.
Then we will have a country to be proud of.
FordPrefect,
The catholic church was part of Irish culture from the time of Saint Patrick (Whether people like it or not it is as much part of our identity as the shamrock or the harp) – Even you would know that they have been part of Ireland for over 1600 years.
The Vikings were beaten by brian ború in the battle of clontarf – Destroying their chance of taking over all the country.
The only people to have really “RAPED AND TORTURED” the Irish were the British Government (who still do piss on us), the Black & Tans, Cromwell (may he forever burn in hell), and Dermot McMurrough when he invited Strongbow and the Normans over here for a permanent timeshare holiday.
Don’t Blame the entire church for the paedophiles & sadists who fooled mostly the hierarchy into believing they were human beings capable of charity an penance!
Blame the Corrupt Cardinals or bishops who did nothing when the evidence was in plain sight, most priests would’ve done something about it if they were able to stop it. The church of Ireland have had their scandals aswell (do see much reporting on their cases which are at times as bad as ours?) much are similar to that of Rome also but it’s just bitter Anti-Catholic ranting that the papers focus on, showing that there is so far bias on reporting clerical abuse.
Immigration will harm this country socially whether you are aware of it or not, only time will tell when a speech similar to that of Enoch Powell becomes a reality here like it is already becoming in the UK.
The Future result of Immigration:
Ethnic Riots
Ghettos
Descrimination widespread
More Murders and attacks against Foreigners
Ethnic Enclaves & Community Resentment
Hate to say I’ll have told you so!
Criostor
By your own standards, having Norman blood makes you a immigrant of sorts – how can you then, condemn the current wave. As the ad says “ Change Happens” and the majority of those coming here are from an area of Europe that had a higher culture than ours in the past and to my mind ,this offers a very desirable fusion.
Yes I agree lets go back to the good old days of the 60s,70s and 80s a time when there was no Ghettos and areas of social deprivation, oh except in places like Fatima Mansions, Ballymun, O’Malley park, ballybeg.. ok so we may have had ghettos but there was no widespread discrimination, except if you wanted a mortgage sorry only public servants need apply, or a job sorry but only friends of Clr John apply, 2nd level education sorry only wealthy kids, only Catholics, and the travelers but there not Irish right… Ah but we had no murders back then (well not any one important like guards or teachers, just the local savages)….
Ireland needs new blood, new ideas or it will fade away into insignificances. Its only when travel and work in other countries are you eyes open to how corrupt and morally bankrupt Ireland is. I would welcome any body with new ideas, new energy, new dreams to move in and set up home here. New thinking and new planning is needed on our side to welcome them and help them to integrate into our culture. We have great elements in our culture, history society that’s uniquely Irish and we need to keep this side and they should be encouraged to change to that, to integrate with us. For them to become Irish too as what is Irish but just a state of mind.
Ed,
if you have been here for over 175 years and over 500 that should qualify anyone of non-irish blood to call themselves irish. You will have intermarried enough with the population to no longer have any previous descent elsewhere.
The same applies to the Settlers in the north who arrived in 1600 and 1700, most of them were Scots.
The Scots were an Irish Tribe from ulster who relocated to Scotland and then 1000 years they came back again, they’re an example of a diasporic people from here.
Their native language of Scot’s Gaelic is little in difference, their dancing and the landscape. The picts however intermarried with them.
We have strayed from the point entirely.
What this country needs is a public vote on the future of immigration, I would personally welcome those of Irish descent here. I have said previously from my own experience what being an immigrant is like being Irish in the UK.
Here is the general future for those of irish descent in the UK: Poor education, little opportunity and no knowledge of the suffering their parents went through.
Some however have done very well, but that has alway been and will be a minority of people.
Change does occur but it shouldn’t happen just for the sake of it, change is only of benefit if it improves or reforms an existing problem. Allowing other people into the country will cause long-term issues if they have no links with the nation or it’s customs/culture – We aren’t culturally bankrupt, just corrupt but that can improve.
We need a mature and public debate where all citizens of Ireland (Those whom are Resident and the Expatriates elsewhere, we’ll include Argentina to be considerate!) can determine the future of this nation, through the diaspora which we will most likely succeed or through the main form of immigration….. allowing anyone from anywhere in the world to setup here and probably never return. Knowing mainland europe’s record with the latter, i seriously doubt we can learn from their mistakes because we are doomed to repeat them.
To David Mcwilliams,
can you please give an opinion on this suggestion?
I agree. Lets chuck out the Vikings. Then we can start on the Celts and then move onto the Welsh, British and then the EU. The Vikings had no long term plan to love and cherish Ireland but you don’t see Viking separatists nor underlying resentment to the Vikings. The only backlash I ever saw to vikings was Wood key and the crying shame that is the council building. Looks like a ship my arse.
My point is that immigration has contributed to this country and throwing them out would be a backward step and we may as well renounce electric light and the wheel.
If we do this we have to also call the Irish home. From everywhere they are as they are obviously not making any contribution to the places they went. Check them at the borders. Use the priests who are dying to get their old powers back. Arm them with blackthorn sticks and cattle prods.
If immigration is stopped here for the weirdy beardy reasons outlined in this blog and unarmed with any evidence or data but with just the vague fear of what happened in a different country then I give up. There is no reasoning here. The next step is pogroms and I won’t stand for it.
Criostor
I don’t follow your reasoning – it’s okay if your ancestors snuck in 175 years ago, but today’s immigrants are a no, no. It would appear that you accept immigration in principle, but the time to assimilate is the problem – unfortunately, the assimilation process doesn’t have a fast forward facility.
I think that we’ve more than enough people from the “Celtic” gene pool, a little input of outside blood could do wonders in the long term. Look at the Celtic fringe nations in the British Isles – none of them have succeeded on their own and even today they’re propped up by English money. Going back to the 1920s, there was a net inflow of monies into Ireland – in reality, the English were very pleased to be shut of us, but they had to put on a show of resistance with the Black and Tans as an example to the valuable colonies like India.
Fordprefect,
here are some examples of how badly we are handling immigration from the international view and some other events on my research.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7130698.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/worldtonight/specialreports_ireland.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_civil_unrest_in_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta_Riots_of_May_1998
I honestly think we need to reconsider the thought of a debate on either continuing down this path which will happen or the safer rout of calling the irish home.
As mentioned earlier
If immigration stopped today and right now we would have.
1. No food – the Irish won’t pick it. Mushrooms as an example are almost exclusively farmed by Latvians living in North Dublin.
2. No petrol. The Irish won’t work in petrol stations. Not strictly 100% true but the remaining staff would be overwhelmed. If you like McDonalds or anything from a shop be prepared for epic queues.
3. People would die in A&E, disabled people would die and starve if the Filipinos and Indians went. The health service is held together by Filipino and Indian nurses.
The Irish nurse got such a severe beating from the government they either handed in their gun and badge or took off for the US, Canada or Australia. this notwithstanding the literal beating many get from drunks in A&E. If I have a road accident I want it to be a big one and to die because Irish hospitals frighten the life out of me. There are substantial numbers of Irish nurses but they have been beaten with the irish version of motivation, divide and demoralise. And when they are finished take their money and give it to faceless autocrats with clipboards who don’t wash their hands. World Class my hole.
4. There would be MASSIVE job losses in the multinational sector. No call centres and the Multinationals would go. The Irish can’t speak their own language never mind others.
5. There would be fewer taxis. Hang on that’s a benefit.
6. The airports would shut up shop, Aer Lingus would finally (oh joy of joys) die and Ryanair would locate in another country.
7. Tax revenues would dry up and the housing market would come to a complete and utter shuddering halt. A halt that would not be pretty and take most of us with it.
8. Violence would increase. Nationalist fever would take over again and we would lash out and blame the old enemies. The border would return and emigration would kick off again with a vengeance.
9. The outside world would say ta ta and not care in the slightest.
Do people really want the late 70′s and early 80′s back? Opposing immigration is like opposing the wheel or banning fire. Please someone tell me where to start throwing people out from? We have always had immigration. Do we start with the dark ones because they look strange or the light ones? If we kick out the new arrivals what about the Dutch and Germans happily settled in the West?
And where does it end. Will we turn into Germany, deporting anyone African regardless of where they are from to Nigeria and denying Turkish immigrants born to to German born Turks German citizenship?
To be honest FordPrefect,
I think that it is going to happen anyway in the future. Whether or not we chose to halt immigration with immediate effect, that would possibly happen either way.
With the Credit Crunch happening now, alot of people from the EU are probably going to be affected and lose their jobs all around the bloc.
We’re losing all our own factories to the Far East and it’s only another 5 years before HP, Intel and other Multi-Nationals pack up and leave as well.
India and the Philipines will have a long-term benefit along with china because of their large populations and lower costs.
We will end up with nothing and I think we should all draw this long arguement to a close.
Let’s check the next article
I know this has finsihed but this is a warning for the future and for anyone who believed previously that Australia has benefited from Diversity or truly welcomes it.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/if-you-value-your-irish-identity-then-its-time-to-snub-europe-1250114.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy
That was only scrapped 35 years ago!
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